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dave56dj
01-05-2013, 07:47 PM
The NFL has made this position very very different then it once was and very hard to play. The last line of defense was always a spot where you could would and should remove a player from the ball by laying him out. The defenseless receiver rule has almost made this impossible. A safety now has to wait till a guy makes a football move before hitting him, an almost impossible decision to make in the heat of the moment. Therefore the spot is now really not a place for guys who lay the wood anymore. Its better for the ballhawks with great speed who can protect the backend with sideline to sideline speed excellent ball skills, great football awareness, and tackler.

I think KP fits the mold but the degenerative knee is an issue. Hill can lay the wood, be interesting to see how he does in deep coverage which he didnt see much of this year. saw a bit of nickel (mayb15 snaps) and can play around the box, definitely has value. Brown can ball hawk but did give up the back end a few times and Rolle is better around LOS.

It may be time to draft a kid who can be a center fielder while the other guys hunt for the ball and play the LOS and run.

Cloud57
01-05-2013, 07:58 PM
IMO safety is not a difficult position, you don't need to pay a guy a ton of money for that position.

dave56dj
01-05-2013, 08:06 PM
Thankfully your opinion is not shared by Jerry or TC - do you remember the cc brown, johnson days.

Be sure that protecting the back end in a very very pass heavy league is very important and not easy to play in any way. The giants gave up far to many big plays this year and need better play from the safety spot. Part of the problem is they have great LOS safeties but not the coverage guys that the spot is calling for these days.

Giantz4Life
01-05-2013, 08:09 PM
I still remember CC Brown blaming the NY media for his unsuccessful stint with the Giants.

GMAN2K9
01-05-2013, 08:10 PM
If we do not resign KP, I think its a clear sign the front office sees Stevie Brown & Will Hill as capable replacements.
Cant see us letting him go then bringing someone else, via GA or draft

jomo
01-05-2013, 08:21 PM
IMO safety is not a difficult position, you don't need to pay a guy a ton of money for that position.CC Brown lol

jomo
01-05-2013, 08:23 PM
If we do not resign KP, I think its a clear sign the front office sees Stevie Brown & Will Hill as capable replacements.
Cant see us letting him go then bringing someone else, via GA or draftIt all comes down to money, always does. Will and Stevie are capable in there with Rolle. We need to reload the OL and find a LB. KP may be a casualty but I know we are better when he is in there and most of all healthy. Gmen know more than we do about his health.

moosedrool
01-05-2013, 08:29 PM
The defenseless receiver rule has almost made this impossible. A safety now has to wait till a guy makes a football move before hitting him, an almost impossible decision to make in the heat of the moment.

This is not true. You can hit a defenseless receiver in the chest area or below with your shoulder. You can't lead with your helmet and you can't hit above the chest. The smarter safeties are doing it and breaking up passes. The stupid ones are still getting 15 yard penalties.

laylow28
01-05-2013, 09:08 PM
I think KP is gonna get more $$$$ elsewhere. We already got 2 younger safety without all the injuries to replace him.

myles2424
01-05-2013, 09:35 PM
IMO safety is not a difficult position, you don't need to pay a guy a ton of money for that position.

Well thank god your opinon doesnt matter...

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 09:36 PM
CC Brown lolVet min, boom, solved.

easterbeast
01-05-2013, 11:37 PM
This is not true. You can hit a defenseless receiver in the chest area or below with your shoulder. You can't lead with your helmet and you can't hit above the chest. The smarter safeties are doing it and breaking up passes. The stupid ones are still getting 15 yard penalties.

if its a jarring hit......its a penalty. That is stupid, because the offensive player always tucks his head down..........then whats left...his sneaker?

EnragedYouth85
01-06-2013, 05:58 AM
Safety IMO is a hard position made ever harder with the new rules. Obviously everyone can't do it or people wouldn't have issues with blown coverages. The safety is usually the guy that tells the DB's what to do in any given situation so they need to be smart, know the playbook and be able to read offenses. They also need the ability to hit, tackle, cover and play in the box. I for one am glad we paid for Rolle because he can do most of those things and has an attitude about him that resinates with the team. He should be wearing a C on his jersey and not Tuck..

Redeyejedi
01-06-2013, 09:38 AM
The NFL has made this position very very different then it once was and very hard to play. The last line of defense was always a spot where you could would and should remove a player from the ball by laying him out. The defenseless receiver rule has almost made this impossible. A safety now has to wait till a guy makes a football move before hitting him, an almost impossible decision to make in the heat of the moment. Therefore the spot is now really not a place for guys who lay the wood anymore. Its better for the ballhawks with great speed who can protect the backend with sideline to sideline speed excellent ball skills, great football awareness, and tackler.

I think KP fits the mold but the degenerative knee is an issue. Hill can lay the wood, be interesting to see how he does in deep coverage which he didnt see much of this year. saw a bit of nickel (mayb15 snaps) and can play around the box, definitely has value. Brown can ball hawk but did give up the back end a few times and Rolle is better around LOS.

It may be time to draft a kid who can be a center fielder while the other guys hunt for the ball and play the LOS and run. If the Giants want a safety this is a good draft for 1. Reminds me of the draft where they selected Chad Jones, Lots of quality depth. I think if they wait 1 of the good safeties could fall into their lap in same spot where they got jones. I think the best deep safety is Baccari Rambo and he could slip because of character flaws

Captain Chaos
01-06-2013, 10:03 AM
I'm not sure KP will get the money people expect, his degenerative knee issues will likely cost him a big contract!

dave56dj
01-06-2013, 02:01 PM
This is not true. You can hit a defenseless receiver in the chest area or below with your shoulder. You can't lead with your helmet and you can't hit above the chest. The smarter safeties are doing it and breaking up passes. The stupid ones are still getting 15 yard penalties.

A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player.

Technically you can call the penalty on a hit anywhere on the receiver as long as he is defenseless until he has become a runner, hence football move of some sort.

hungrrrry
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
I think KP is gonna get more $$$$ elsewhere. We already got 2 younger safety without all the injuries to replace him.KP is great when healthy and the other teams will also see that he loses a lot of value due to his health concerns...like RB Fred Jackson in Buffalo, awesome talent but very breakable...I don't think KP will command a big check because of it. He may re-sign with us for considerably less to stay with his team. He wont get top safety money from anyone.

dave56dj
01-06-2013, 02:04 PM
Tough to say that hungrryyy - while i agree with your assessment considering a degenerative knee injury with teams like the raiders (remember gibril) and other horrifying gm's there is always the chance someone jumps at him.

moosedrool
01-06-2013, 02:51 PM
A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player.

Technically you can call the penalty on a hit anywhere on the receiver as long as he is defenseless until he has become a runner, hence football move of some sort.

This is not true. Here is the rule:

(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.”

dave56dj
01-06-2013, 03:27 PM
This comes straight from the nfl - not sure why you think it isnt true.

Today the NFL’s communications department attempted to clear things up, with e-mails to the media and Twitter messages pointing to the exact wording of the rules regarding defenseless players.

The relevant portion of the rule is:

“It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.
(a) Players in a defenseless posture are: [. . .]
(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player

moosedrool
01-06-2013, 03:46 PM
This comes straight from the nfl - not sure why you think it isnt true.

Today the NFL’s communications department attempted to clear things up, with e-mails to the media and Twitter messages pointing to the exact wording of the rules regarding defenseless players.

The relevant portion of the rule is:

“It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.
(a) Players in a defenseless posture are: [. . .]
(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player

What I posted comes straight form the NFL office too. You are only posting half of the rule defining what a defenseless player is. You are leaving out the part I posted which defines the area of a defenseless receiver you can and can't hit.

dave56dj
01-06-2013, 04:58 PM
The part I am highlighting makes it clear they can call a penalty on a hit to the shoulder if the receiver is deemed defenseless.

YATittle1962
01-06-2013, 05:09 PM
IMO safety is not a difficult position

there are few more silly statements made on these boards

.....very very few

moosedrool
01-06-2013, 05:11 PM
The part I am highlighting makes it clear they can call a penalty on a hit to the shoulder if the receiver is deemed defenseless.

Again, this is incorrect. I'm not sure why you are not reading the rule correctly. A defenseless receiver can be hit as long as it is not with the crown of the helmet and the hit is not to the head or neck area. It's right there in the rule as I posted. A shoulder hit below the head and neck area is legal to a defenseless receiver.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 05:14 PM
there are few more silly statements made on these boards

.....very very few

We could count them on no hands :p

TroyArcher
01-06-2013, 08:06 PM
Again, this is incorrect. I'm not sure why you are not reading the rule correctly. A defenseless receiver can be hit as long as it is not with the crown of the helmet and the hit is not to the head or neck area. It's right there in the rule as I posted. A shoulder hit below the head and neck area is legal to a defenseless receiver.

Sorry but you are wrong.

TuckandRolle
01-07-2013, 10:00 AM
Will Hill is a freak, he's gonna be a stud for us and I expect massive things if he keeps his head on straight. Fast and knows how to cover and hit. Exceptional player. Now that he's learned our playbook, he'll have a full OTA and training camp under his belt and I expect to see the type of player we saw early in his Florida career. Has potential to be a top Safety in the LEAGUE.

lamas
01-07-2013, 10:46 AM
Again, this is incorrect. I'm not sure why you are not reading the rule correctly. A defenseless receiver can be hit as long as it is not with the crown of the helmet and the hit is not to the head or neck area. It's right there in the rule as I posted. A shoulder hit below the head and neck area is legal to a defenseless receiver.


Sorry but you are wrong.

moosedrool is correct. As dave56dj stated, “It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture..."

The "unnecessary" part occurs when the defender uses his helmet or puts a blow to the receiver's head. A shoulder hit to the midsection is perfectly legal and very difficult to achieve in my opinion.

It is a hard call to make as well, and referees seem to be erring on the side of safety.