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RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:03 AM
http://www.bigblueview.com/2013/1/9/3852848/new-york-giants-2012-season-in-review-kevin-gilbride-offensive-coordinator

Excerpt: "As we meander our way through reviews of the New York Giants much-too-short 2012 season we have come to the point where we discuss offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride. Which is a nice way of saying we have come to the post where Giants' fans unload all of their venom at Gilbride, the offensive coordinator many love to hate no matter what he does.

Do the numbers support the venom? I have never believed that, and still don't. Gilbride is a far better offensive coordinator, I believe, than many are willing to give him credit for. He has called plays for two Super Bowl-winning teams and the Giants' offense, despite whatever short-comings it has, is always among the league's most prolific.

Gilbride has been with the Giants since 2004 and has been calling plays for Eli Manning since the end of the 2006 season. Is his offense, or his message to his players, stale? When I spoke to Jim Sabo of Ourlads (http://ourlads.com/) recently, he theorized that it might be.

"There's something to be said for continuity, I believe in that. But, there's also a time when some of these guys start getting tuned out," Sabo said. "They've given ‘em all the speeches, they've given everything they've got and pretty soon they stop listening to ‘em. I don't know if that's the time for both Gilbride and [Perry] Fewell to move on. But there's something not right with either group."

It is an interesting theory. It is one, however, that I am not buying. Yes, the Giants as a whole had some awful games in 2012. The Giants did, however, score 429 points -- second-most in franchise history behind the 448 scored by the 1963 Giants.From Team Rankings (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stats/)here are some of what I consider to be the most revealing numbers about the Giants' offense in 2012:
(http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stats/)
Points Per Game -- 26.8 (5th)
Points Per Play -- 0.443 (2nd)
Touchdowns Per Game -- 2.9 (7th)
Red Zone Scoring Attempts Per Game -- 3.9 (4th)
Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TDs only) -- 54.84 percent (13th)
Plays Per Game -- 60.5 (31st)
Yards Per Play -- 5.9 (4th)
Avg. Time Of Possession -- 29:10 (23rd)
Third Down Conversion Percentage -- 40.62 percent (11th)
Rushing Attempts Per Game -- 25.6 (23rd)
Yards Per Rush Attempt -- 4.6 (7th)
Rushing Play Percentage -- 42.25 percent (15th)
Passing Yards Per Game -- 239.1 (12th)
Yards Per Pass Attempt -- 7.1 (11th)
Yards Per Completion -- 11.8 (4th)
QB Sacked Percentage -- 3.58 percent (2nd)
Average Team Passer Rating -- 87.2 (14th)
" Read more...

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:04 AM
:popcorn:

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 09:07 AM
Same old every year ... Gilbride gets killed but the offensive numbers tend to be in the top third of the league.

I wouldn't say the same thing for Fewell however.

Toadofsteel
01-09-2013, 09:09 AM
Killdrive was really our DEFENSIVE coordinator? That explains why he didn't do **** for our offense...

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:10 AM
Same old every year ... Gilbride gets killed but the offensive numbers tend to be in the top third of the league.

I wouldn't say the same thing for Fewell however.

Fewell will likely be tomorrow's target

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:11 AM
Killdrive was really our DEFENSIVE coordinator? That explains why he didn't do **** for our offense...

Picky, picky picky

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 09:14 AM
Fewell will likely be tomorrow's target


Honest question ... if the Giants were one and done in the playoffs last year, would Fewell still have a job in 2013?

I think he would have gone the way of Tim Lewis personally.

Loves me my Lombardi ... but let's face it ... Fewell's tenure with the Giants is based on four games in three years.

Toadofsteel
01-09-2013, 09:18 AM
I think these numbers are a little inflated... Eli is doing what he can to make the big plays that Killdrive always dials up work. If, as the article says, we mixed in some high-percentage plays and ran more no-huddle, we'd have an unstoppable offense...

Flip Empty
01-09-2013, 09:20 AM
Fewell's tenure with the Giants is based on four games in three years.

The Packers and Niners games this season?

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:20 AM
I think these numbers are a little inflated... Eli is doing what he can to make the big plays that Killdrive always dials up work. If, as the article says, we mixed in some high-percentage plays and ran more no-huddle, we'd have an unstoppable offense...

The numbers are inflated?

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 09:21 AM
I think these numbers are a little inflated... Eli is doing what he can to make the big plays that Killdrive always dials up work. If, as the article says, we mixed in some high-percentage plays and ran more no-huddle, we'd have an unstoppable offense...

They're inflated because they make rants against KG look stupid?

It must be a conspiracy.

P.S. - Eli can audible into a half dozen plays on any given down. We go long because that's what won us a SB last year.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 09:21 AM
Honest question ... if the Giants were one and done in the playoffs last year, would Fewell still have a job in 2013?

I think he would have gone the way of Tim Lewis personally.

Loves me my Lombardi ... but let's face it ... Fewell's tenure with the Giants is based on four games in three years.

When did they extend his contract?

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 09:22 AM
The Packers and Niners games this season?

Packers had injuries all over the place and one of the worst offensive lines in football.

The 49ers game was awesome, but let's face it ... not exactly a big play offense to worry about.

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 09:24 AM
When did they extend his contract?

Last year and from what I gather, will exercise his option for 2013.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 10:49 AM
Last year and from what I gather, will exercise his option for 2013.

So many defensive starters were MIA in 2012 they probably want to see how he does with some new/healthy talent in 2013. He's the same guy who ran rhe SB defense. I'd want to know if that was a fluke.

sheepdip
01-09-2013, 10:49 AM
We exploded on offense versus some terrible Defensive teams and struggled vs every other team. How do ppl not realize this.

GB game they were missing there pass rush and 2 guys in there secondary - tainted score.
Saints on the road ?? come on, who doesnt score tons of points on them ?
Panthers ?? Browns early in the season on the road minus half there secondary ? come on


We scored around 250 points vs terrible defensive teams.
170 against avg or better teams. Even games like the 2nd Cowboys game when you properly dissect it. We scored what 26 points yet our defense too k the ball away 6 times and we couldn't muster any more points than that ?

sheepdip
01-09-2013, 10:53 AM
Anyone who thinks our offense was solid this year doesnt understand or watches the games properly. If we had a solid offense we would have made the playoffs. The same thing could be said about the defense.

Both sides of the ball stunk !! and the OC and DC could do nothing to stop the train wreck.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 10:53 AM
We exploded on offense versus some terrible Defensive teams and struggled vs every other team. How do ppl not realize this. GB game they were missing there pass rush and 2 guys in there secondary - tainted score. Saints on the road ?? come on, who doesnt score tons of points on them ? Panthers ?? Browns early in the season on the road minus half there secondary ? come on We scored around 250 points vs terrible defensive teams. 170 against avg or better teams. Even games like the 2nd Cowboys game when you properly dissect it. We scored what 26 points yet our defense too k the ball away 6 times and we couldn't muster any more points than that ? At least you're consistent

sheepdip
01-09-2013, 10:56 AM
Dude I dont sugar coat anything. I would love to say something nice about our coaches I really would.

Rarely do I go man we are so in tune and our team functions at a very high level. We were un organized, sloppy, soft, un motivated, stale play calling, in effective in a lot of areas. Scarry thing is the coaches have no idea ?????.

Sorry I would love to be rah rah rah like everyone else but sorry I dont buy it. I can be hated on the boards I dont care. until I am booted off I will speak my mind as hard as it is for people to understand.

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 10:57 AM
So many defensive starters were MIA in 2012 they probably want to see how he does with some new/healthy talent in 2013. He's the same guy who ran rhe SB defense. I'd want to know if that was a fluke.

Historically speaking, it's a fluke. Not like last year was his first year. He was only ever mediocre in Buffalo. And last year our defense was ranked 27th. We got fortunate that they woke up for the last 4 games.

Is that on Fewell or the players? I'm thinking in a short sudden burst, it's the players.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 11:02 AM
Dude I dont sugar coat anything. I would love to say something nice about our coaches I really would. Rarely do I go man we are so in tune and our team functions at a very high level. We were un organized, sloppy, soft, un motivated, stale play calling, in effective in a lot of areas. Scarry thing is the coaches have no idea ?????. Sorry I would love to be rah rah rah like everyone else but sorry I dont buy it. I can be hated on the boards I dont care. until I am booted off I will speak my mind as hard as it is for people to understand. Who said you are hated?

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 11:04 AM
Historically speaking, it's a fluke. Not like last year was his first year. He was only ever mediocre in Buffalo. And last year our defense was ranked 27th. We got fortunate that they woke up for the last 4 games. Is that on Fewell or the players? I'm thinking in a short sudden burst, it's the players. I I think that's what the organization is trying to figure out now and they're going to give him another year.

Gmen 802
01-09-2013, 11:06 AM
Well the two things that stand out to me the most are the 4th in yards per play, which is nice and shows we can obviously hit some big plays...but then you see 31st in plays per game....has 'live and die by the big play' written all over it. If we could just work in some more efficient passing plays into our system just for the sake of keeping drives alive we'd have more chances to hit those big plays. I understand how KG likes to go for longer passes on 3rd and short as defenses tend to choke down a little bit, but how often is it really going to work? I was surprised to see we were even 11th at 3rd down conversion %, I bet in 2nd half of season we were in bottom half if not third in league. I'm not a huge fan of KG nor a huge critic, but there are quite a few things he could and should do just slightly better and more efficient that would really help this team.

Don't forget people I hate to say it but Eli also calls a lot of the plays too...not a bash on him but just a point against people who think it's always Gilbride's fault

JayMas9
01-09-2013, 11:07 AM
I think the article makes 2 good points. KG is a very good offensive mind, I like the system, but the red zone inefficiency is baffling along with the pace and consistency. When this offense puts up zero against Atlanta followed by 14 against Baltimore (whose defense really isn't that good) I have questions. We have the talent to compete in any shootout. I hope when adding wrinkles this offseason the focus is on instilling a lot more consistency. I understand the offense doesn't work as well without Nicks, he's our best offensive player outside of Eli...but we should be able to adjust.

But the constant hate for KG is absolutely ridiculous on this board.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 11:12 AM
I think the article makes 2 good points. KG is a very good offensive mind, I like the system, but the red zone inefficiency is baffling along with the pace and consistency. When this offense puts up zero against Atlanta followed by 14 against Baltimore (whose defense really isn't that good) I have questions. We have the talent to compete in any shootout. I hope when adding wrinkles this offseason the focus is on instilling a lot more consistency. I understand the offense doesn't work as well without Nicks, he's our best offensive player outside of Eli...but we should be able to adjust. But the constant hate for KG is absolutely ridiculous on this board. The emotional let down is still affecting us.

JayMas9
01-09-2013, 11:17 AM
The emotional let down is still affecting us.Without a doubt, and I'm pretty confident our coaching staff understands the inconsistency and red zone issues (which were not a problem in 2011) and is going to fix them. If there comes a time, with Eli as QB, when Coughlin retires, then every crazy person on here can see their new O-coordinator. Until that time, I want the offensive staff that has won 2 superbowls and has guided the best Giant offenses of all time.

GeoGoGo
01-09-2013, 11:35 AM
I think the article makes 2 good points. KG is a very good offensive mind, I like the system, but the red zone inefficiency is baffling along with the pace and consistency. When this offense puts up zero against Atlanta followed by 14 against Baltimore (whose defense really isn't that good) I have questions. We have the talent to compete in any shootout. I hope when adding wrinkles this offseason the focus is on instilling a lot more consistency. I understand the offense doesn't work as well without Nicks, he's our best offensive player outside of Eli...but we should be able to adjust.

But the constant hate for KG is absolutely ridiculous on this board.

No. Three consecutive shotgun draws is ridiculous. The Giants win despite of Gilbride, not because of him. There is a reason he is called Killdrive.

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 12:31 PM
I I think that's what the organization is trying to figure out now and they're going to give him another year.

Yeah I know ... it's hard justifying firing a guy a year removed from being part of a SB win.

But I also know that that's the closest you ever came to condemning a coach ;)

Kruunch
01-09-2013, 12:31 PM
No. Three consecutive shotgun draws is ridiculous. The Giants win despite of Gilbride, not because of him. There is a reason he is called Killdrive.

Even if that were true, 2 SBs in 5 years would be grounds for keeping him ... just so the players could go on spiting him. :rolleyes:

flashnando
01-09-2013, 01:02 PM
I think these numbers are a little inflated... Eli is doing what he can to make the big plays that Killdrive always dials up work. If, as the article says, we mixed in some high-percentage plays and ran more no-huddle, we'd have an unstoppable offense...

Agree!

JayMas9
01-09-2013, 01:48 PM
No. Three consecutive shotgun draws is ridiculous. The Giants win despite of Gilbride, not because of him. There is a reason he is called Killdrive.There's zero factual basis to assert we win despite Gilbride. He's one of the architects of the system, and sends in the plays that Eli calls. Essentially you believe our entire offensive system is trash. There is no way we win 2 championships with an utter failure of an offensive system. It's not possible.

sheepdip
01-09-2013, 01:50 PM
Know what is funny to me watching all other teams move the ball at will versus our Defense, these mind you arent the greatest offenses of all time yet with all the weapons we have on offense we seem to struggle this year getting first downs. Is it all the players !!! come on cant be guys !!!!!!!

Is it possible defenses knew how to defend us and we had no plan B or answer ??????

Like I said weeks ago I think Dallas provided the blue print to shut our offense down !!!

TheShouldersOf
01-09-2013, 01:55 PM
Dude I dont sugar coat anything. I would love to say something nice about our coaches I really would.

Rarely do I go man we are so in tune and our team functions at a very high level. We were un organized, sloppy, soft, un motivated, stale play calling, in effective in a lot of areas. Scarry thing is the coaches have no idea ?????.

Sorry I would love to be rah rah rah like everyone else but sorry I dont buy it. I can be hated on the boards I dont care. until I am booted off I will speak my mind as hard as it is for people to understand.

i concur with you

sheepdip
01-09-2013, 02:00 PM
Another note too , Patriots can loose both TE's and keep on ticking ?? they change they improvise they try different things. I would think with there 2 TE's that we have better overall offensive weapons. Guys we werent just not scoring a lot we werent getting first downs. DONT BLAME IT ON NICKS>

dave56dj
01-09-2013, 03:53 PM
Careful giants fans if you go to big blue view they wrote an article on Gilbride where they use stats to assess him and not smells colors and emotions. As usual Gilbrides offense comes up looking pretty darn good. I know I know you can call shotgun draw (one of the only ways to run from shotgun) and we all know he doesnt run enough trickery and you can call a better game and eli does everything (although he does call gilbrides plays), and the players do make up for gilbride being an idiot. That said, I'm gonna go with Gilbride is actually a good coordinator despite all those absolutely ridiculous points. STATS DONT LIE.

On the flip side i believe fewell has some splainin to do. The 2012 gmen gave up some of the most yards in their history.

slipknottin
01-09-2013, 03:58 PM
Even if gilbride's offense was average, do we really want Eli at this point in his career trying to learn an entirely new offense?

Peyton has played in the exact same system his entire career. In fact, most of the top QBs have. The only one that has seen any sort of significant system changes is Brady.

Toadofsteel
01-09-2013, 04:09 PM
If we didn't three and out so much, our defense wouldn't have given up nearly as many yards... Killdrive calling 3 shotgun draws in a row pretty much sealed it for me.

slipknottin
01-09-2013, 04:21 PM
If we didn't three and out so much, our defense wouldn't have given up nearly as many yards... Killdrive calling 3 shotgun draws in a row pretty much sealed it for me.

ELI DECIDES RUN OR PASS AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE

Buddy333
01-09-2013, 04:37 PM
Both units stunk.

NYG4lifeNYK
01-09-2013, 04:43 PM
"There's something to be said for continuity, I believe in that. But, there's also a time when some of these guys start getting tuned out," Sabo said. "They've given ‘em all the speeches, they've given everything they've got and pretty soon they stop listening to ‘em. I don't know if that's the time for both Gilbride and [Perry] Fewell to move on. But there's something not right with either group."


This is what a lot of us have been saying.... but now that Jim Sabo says it people listen?

This offense is stale. He needs to expand the playbook and throw in some less complex plays. You don't have to throw it down field every single time to get a first down. You need a mix of short, intermediate and deep passes. We don't have a good balance.

dave56dj
01-09-2013, 05:07 PM
Im confused I thought I started this thread but now it says roanoke did? Is it b/c i didnt link it? I don't really care just confused i guess.

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-09-2013, 05:12 PM
:popcorn:

aint that a %$#@%

GoDeep80
01-09-2013, 05:26 PM
Two stats on this story show why Fewell needs to be fired. we are ranked so high in these offensive stats but the glaring problems are Plays per Game and Time of Possession.This is when Fewells bend but don't break defense screws us over! we might be 12th in points allowed but if the other team is prolonging how long they have the ball and limiting our opportunities to score we can't compete. If we can't get the ball back because other teams are consistently getting first downs and extending drives then our offense has no chance to find a rhythm and the deeper the opposing team drives if they can't get a field goal they punt and give us horrible field position. I mean we probably had some of the worst starting field position in the league all year after punts.

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 05:32 PM
wow we achieved all that while being 30th in plays run per game

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 05:34 PM
Two stats on this story show why Fewell needs to be fired. we are ranked so high in these offensive stats but the glaring problems are Plays per Game and Time of Possession.This is when Fewells bend but don't break defense screws us over! we might be 12th in points allowed but if the other team is prolonging how long they have the ball and limiting our opportunities to score we can't compete. If we can't get the ball back because other teams are consistently getting first downs and extending drives then our offense has no chance to find a rhythm and the deeper the opposing team drives if they can't get a field goal they punt and give us horrible field position. I mean we probably had some of the worst starting field position in the league all year after punts.i remember like a dozen games our avg starting position was inside our 15 yd line smfh

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 05:44 PM
ELI DECIDES RUN OR PASS AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGEtechnically, the defense is deciding that, as eli will pick the run play or pass play KG CALLS based on the defensive look...and eli decided run/pass based on the gameplan KG installs weekly. Dont just go to the other end of the spectrum and claim eli has total freedom to do as he pleases just to counter the argument its all on KG. its on both, but imo, mostly on KG. Eli can only choose between the 3 plays sent in from what I have read and understand. those 3 plays are based on the formation that KG sent in as well, meaning ive never seen us come out in a I formation, and eli audibles into a shotgun formation play...Eli is making his decisions based on the parameters of KGs scheme and instruction. The decisions eli will make still has a ton of input from KG on when and why to make certain decisions...to try and excuse KG bc "eli decides run or pass" which is a slanted statement anyways, is as comical as people blaming solely kg.

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 05:50 PM
technically, even further, eli isnt "deciding" anything. KGs offense requires and functions on the qb making the "correct" adjustment at the LOS. Eli isnt making that decision based on his own free will and feeling at the time lmfao, he is required to make the decisions based on the parameters or formula even that KG installs. its kgs offense right? eli is attempting to make the correct decision BASED ON KGS OFFENSE, meaning, KG is the one actually deciding why and when we're going to run or pass, elis just the one who has to execute it correctly. eli is just looking for the info/data that the offensive scheme, kgs scheme, runs off of. im gonna guess this is prob too complicated a topic and just end it there.

TheShouldersOf
01-09-2013, 06:00 PM
A glaring problem with Gilbrides offense is the the lack of integrating players into the offense, many talk about the complexities one must learn before they get on the field, the difficulties of picking up the playbook and knowing all assignments, it restricts different personal matches and mismatches one could create,

it's based on players knowledge versus skill set, we all said Randle should have played more, some say he was running wrong routes, but if the complexities were lowered and the schemes were based on talent and skill set he may have shined brighter then most, he came into the NFL with a complete route tree,


Gilbride said that Nicks and Bradshaw playing was hurting them, then said that playing them instead of others is the best option, that alone should get the organization to evaluate him,

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:01 PM
ELI DECIDES RUN OR PASS AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE
Don't bother. They won't let the facts get in the way of their opinions.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 06:03 PM
Don't bother. They won't let the facts get in the way of their opinions.

What is it about that simple phrase that is so elusive for some members?

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 06:09 PM
well bc its such a slanted statement. its not a fact really. thats why. yes, eli is carrying out when to run and pass based on KG and his offense, but how is that eli "deciding"? all eli is doing is trying to parrot the info practiced throughout the week installing the gameplan. he doesnt just wheel and deal and make things up as he goes as to the criteria for run or pass audibles, he has a very specific set of criteria, BASED ON KGS SCHEME, to run or pass. and even then, bc he "decides" one way or the other alleviates KG??? Eli isnt changing into a play he just thought off and drew on the sand, hes checking into another play KG called. the checks are sent in with the actual play call, people realize that right? I guess eli is "deciding" if deciding means kg gives eli 3 plays, and when to switch to another play...but that would still have little to do with the success of the play in terms of eli changing it. wouldnt the design of the play still be the most relevant factor for all the "its execution" excuses that alleviate kg? eli can change into pass or run all day long, if the play is poorly designed or not attacking the defense effectively, it aint gonna work.

u realize eli is counting the front 7 or 8, thats how he "decides", to change into another 1 of the plays kg called in. my point is, saying eli calls run or pass in hopes of alleviating kg is no different than people sayings its solely kg based on faulty logic

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:18 PM
A glaring problem with Gilbrides offense is the the lack of integrating players into the offense, many talk about the complexities one must learn before they get on the field, the difficulties of picking up the playbook and knowing all assignments, it restricts different personal matches and mismatches one could create,

it's based on players knowledge versus skill set, we all said Randle should have played more, some say he was running wrong routes, but if the complexities were lowered and the schemes were based on talent and skill set he may have shined brighter then most, he came into the NFL with a complete route tree,


Gilbride said that Nicks and Bradshaw playing was hurting them, then said that playing them instead of others is the best option, that alone should get the organization to evaluate him,
Gilbride does only give players what they can digest. I'm sure when Randle was out there he wasn't required to know 5 different stems on a play, but probably only 1 or 2. There was an article a while back (I think from the WSJ) where KG said as much. I think it was Nicks' second year when the article was written, but he said he only gives Nicks like 3 reads, but back when he was with Houton he'd give Jefferies or Givins 5 or 6 different reads.

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:19 PM
What is it about that simple phrase that is so elusive for some members?
Don't get me wrong, I like debating/arguing with people (probably more than most, lol), but sometimes there just comes a point where you realize that you're just wasting breath.

dave56dj
01-09-2013, 06:22 PM
Roanoke as a mod any answers as to my query. Again i dont care that it says you started the thread just curious as to how that happened. I assume i did not link it correctly is that right.?

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:23 PM
well bc its such a slanted statement. its not a fact really. thats why. yes, eli is carrying out when to run and pass based on KG and his offense, but how is that eli "deciding"? all eli is doing is trying to parrot the info practiced throughout the week installing the gameplan. he doesnt just wheel and deal and make things up as he goes as to the criteria for run or pass audibles, he has a very specific set of criteria, BASED ON KGS SCHEME, to run or pass. and even then, bc he "decides" one way or the other alleviates KG??? Eli isnt changing into a play he just thought off and drew on the sand, hes checking into another play KG called. the checks are sent in with the actual play call, people realize that right? I guess eli is "deciding" if deciding means kg gives eli 3 plays, and when to switch to another play...but that would still have little to do with the success of the play in terms of eli changing it. wouldnt the design of the play still be the most relevant factor for all the "its execution" excuses that alleviate kg? eli can change into pass or run all day long, if the play is poorly designed or not attacking the defense effectively, it aint gonna work.

u realize eli is counting the front 7 or 8, thats how he "decides", to change into another 1 of the plays kg called in. my point is, saying eli calls run or pass in hopes of alleviating kg is no different than people sayings its solely kg based on faulty logic
How is it faulty logic? Eli decides if it's going to be a run or a pass depending on what he sees in the defense. Even just past counting how many are in the box, it could even be based on how the DL and LB are lined up, etc....

And I love how people ***** about 3 shotgun draws in a row like that was something more than a one off.

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 06:27 PM
drez, quick question. lets say u work at mcdonalds. the manager explains to you, that if u run out of the special sauce for a big mac, use a mayo and ketchup mixture(off topic, im almost sure thats what the special sauce is lol). Ur working ur shift, and run out of special sauce, so u follow ur managers instruction, and replace it with ketchup/mayo mixture...did u decide to do anything?


i think we have varying understandings of what it is to "decide"...i mean in a very basic, simple way, eli is "deciding" run or pass. but the method of his decision process will be almost all formulated on kgs instruction. so to what extent is ELI deciding or KG deciding and Eli executing instruction?

sorry for the lame analogy btw, didnt have time to make dinner so i got myself a bigmac for the first time in years lol

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 06:31 PM
the reason i ask is bc it seems when people go "eli decides run or pass", bc its such a slanted statement, its implying hes making the decision of his own valition. when in fact, ANY "decision" eli can make running the offense, will be predicated on KGs scheme/offense/instruction. Eli is OPERATING kgs offense, therefore, anything that the offense is doing, is under KG...NOT eli. eli is merely an extension of KG on the field. ever hear peyton being so positively regarded for his ability to be "the OC on the field"?? he wasn't "deciding" anything, he was merely EXECUTING what the offense dictates vs ANY situation bc peyton understood MOORE'S offense so well...

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:45 PM
drez, quick question. lets say u work at mcdonalds. the manager explains to you, that if u run out of the special sauce for a big mac, use a mayo and ketchup mixture(off topic, im almost sure thats what the special sauce is lol). Ur working ur shift, and run out of special sauce, so u follow ur managers instruction, and replace it with ketchup/mayo mixture...did u decide to do anything?


i think we have varying understandings of what it is to "decide"...i mean in a very basic, simple way, eli is "deciding" run or pass. but the method of his decision process will be almost all formulated on kgs instruction. so to what extent is ELI deciding or KG deciding and Eli executing instruction?

sorry for the lame analogy btw, didnt have time to make dinner so i got myself a bigmac for the first time in years lol
The special sauce is a little more like Russian Dressing than mayo and ketchup (which is the base for Russian; add pickle relish, Worcestershire sauce, some hard boiled egg, seasoning).

A more apt analogy would be Eli is a chef, and KG, the executive chef, says, "We're running a seafood marinara with shrimp, calamari, and mussels. We're running low on mussels, so if we run out you can either sub it with scallops, oysters, or clams, etc. However, seeing as I trust in your skills and judgement, if you feel like it you can just change the special and run another dish."

JayMas9
01-09-2013, 06:47 PM
Even if gilbride's offense was average, do we really want Eli at this point in his career trying to learn an entirely new offense?

Peyton has played in the exact same system his entire career. In fact, most of the top QBs have. The only one that has seen any sort of significant system changes is Brady.I have no problem with our current offense, but I don't believe it would be a problem at all for Eli to learn a new system, and I think he'd be fine in it. That being said, there's no reason to change a successful system, let alone one our QB has been in his entire career. Tweak, adjust, evolve, yes...but I'm sure that will happen this offseason. We have too good of a coaching staff for it not to.

Drez
01-09-2013, 06:49 PM
the reason i ask is bc it seems when people go "eli decides run or pass", bc its such a slanted statement, its implying hes making the decision of his own valition. when in fact, ANY "decision" eli can make running the offense, will be predicated on KGs scheme/offense/instruction. Eli is OPERATING kgs offense, therefore, anything that the offense is doing, is under KG...NOT eli. eli is merely an extension of KG on the field. ever hear peyton being so positively regarded for his ability to be "the OC on the field"?? he wasn't "deciding" anything, he was merely EXECUTING what the offense dictates vs ANY situation bc peyton understood MOORE'S offense so well...
I understand that Eli is operating KGs system on the field, however, the coaches trust in his judgement to get into the right play. It isn't like Eli has a rigid calculus that determines run/pass.

demoskratos
01-09-2013, 06:55 PM
I don't view these stats as a good thing. To mean it means that we are passed focused and other teams know it and defend it. Gilbride's lack of adjustment to this is a BAD thing, the success we have is because of the players we have executing, not because of the scheme. Without Eli we would be a 6-10 team.

Diamondring
01-09-2013, 07:50 PM
I don't view these stats as a good thing. To mean it means that we are passed focused and other teams know it and defend it. Gilbride's lack of adjustment to this is a BAD thing, the success we have is because of the players we have executing, not because of the scheme. Without Eli we would be a 6-10 team.There are a good amount of offenses that do one thing and they still produce. This happens cause the players they have on offense. I bet the Packers would be 6 and 10 if they didn't have Rodgers.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 08:00 PM
Im confused I thought I started this thread but now it says roanoke did? Is it b/c i didnt link it? I don't really care just confused i guess.

No, we merge threads of like substance

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 08:21 PM
I understand that Eli is operating KGs system on the field, however, the coaches trust in his judgement to get into the right play. It isn't like Eli has a rigid calculus that determines run/pass.and who is it that determines the "right plays" during the week leading up to the games? KG. there isnt many situations that go unpracticed or unprepared for...i understand on the very basic, simple level that eli has to decide which play, according to KG and his offense, is the correct one. but again, he isnt "deciding" that free willy dilly. the trust he has from the coaches is that he will do what THEY deem correct on the fieldof play, a place they arent at, hence the trust...i get what ur saying, but my point is its BOTH eli and kg.

saying "eli decides the play, pass or run" is implying the opposite end of the spectrum from "its all KGs fault" and becomes "its all elis fault," bc hes the one deciding." well...no, that isnt quite accurate, at all really.

RoanokeFan
01-09-2013, 08:36 PM
I understand that Eli is operating KGs system on the field, however, the coaches trust in his judgement to get into the right play. It isn't like Eli has a rigid calculus that determines run/pass.

I always thought it was a compliment to Eli

Drez
01-09-2013, 08:45 PM
I always thought it was a compliment to EliIndeed.

Drez
01-09-2013, 08:48 PM
and who is it that determines the "right plays" during the week leading up to the games? KG. there isnt many situations that go unpracticed or unprepared for...i understand on the very basic, simple level that eli has to decide which play, according to KG and his offense, is the correct one. but again, he isnt "deciding" that free willy dilly. the trust he has from the coaches is that he will do what THEY deem correct on the fieldof play, a place they arent at, hence the trust...i get what ur saying, but my point is its BOTH eli and kg.

saying "eli decides the play, pass or run" is implying the opposite end of the spectrum from "its all KGs fault" and becomes "its all elis fault," bc hes the one deciding." well...no, that isnt quite accurate, at all really.And what I'm trying to say is I'm sure it isn't some purely mechanical process by which Eli decides to check into the run or pass. Hell, he has the leeway of just going with his gut if he so chooses. It isn't like, "Oh, it looks like they're playing 2-deep with 7 in the box, we have to run on this play."

giantsfan420
01-09-2013, 11:30 PM
And what I'm trying to say is I'm sure it isn't some purely mechanical process by which Eli decides to check into the run or pass. Hell, he has the leeway of just going with his gut if he so chooses. It isn't like, "Oh, it looks like they're playing 2-deep with 7 in the box, we have to run on this play."no thats actually exactly how it is. 7 in the box, and with what ive read and seen, eli is to audible into a run. 8 in the box, check to a pass. and im commenting there frm a purely basic standpoint...i know its deeper than that, but thats pretty much what hes looking for, thats really the only basis he makes his "decision" off of. its ok i think we agree its both kg and eli so i dont mind if we disagree on this aspect.

TheShouldersOf
01-10-2013, 12:25 AM
It would also depend on how many running/passing plays Eli has to select from,


does he get to select from the entire run plays? the run plays the practiced? or the only choice Gilbride gave him to check into?

giantsfan420
01-10-2013, 12:30 AM
It would also depend on how many running/passing plays Eli has to select from,


does he get to select from the entire run plays? the run plays the practiced? or the only choice Gilbride gave him to check into?from what I've read, theres been differing accounts, KG sends 3 plays into eli. the original play call, and 2 audibles he can check to, based on the D. he does not have the freedom to check into whatever play he feels. whens the last time u seen eli audible from an I formation, into a shotgun formation play? never. the play/audibles depend on formation as well. hence why KG sending 3 plays in for the formation they are running the play out of, and eli is to change from one play to the next based on the gameplan and defensive look.

giantsfan420
01-10-2013, 12:32 AM
he can "decide" if he is going to check or not, but the decision will be based off of KGs instruction and collaboration with eli on when and why to audible.

TheShouldersOf
01-10-2013, 03:02 AM
Indeed, so Eli doesn't 'Call' run or pass, he can check to it based on the defense, but he can only call what Gilbride gave, so example the 3 Shotgun Draws

Eli wants to check into a run based on what the defense shows, but the only run he can check into is the Draw, if he see's the same defense 3 times in a row it's going to be a draw three time, and that is on Gilbride, because the run may be the superior option at that time, doesn't mean the Shotgun draw is the superior run choice,

giantsfan420
01-10-2013, 03:28 AM
Indeed, so Eli doesn't 'Call' run or pass, he can check to it based on the defense, but he can only call what Gilbride gave, so example the 3 Shotgun Draws

Eli wants to check into a run based on what the defense shows, but the only run he can check into is the Draw, if he see's the same defense 3 times in a row it's going to be a draw three time, and that is on Gilbride, because the run may be the superior option at that time, doesn't mean the Shotgun draw is the superior run choice,well said actually that is a pretty good example of what im talking about. basically eli can only operate in the paremeters set by kgs scheme and offense. any decision eli will make will be based entirely upon that. u said it well thanks

giantsfan420
01-10-2013, 03:30 AM
dont forget that theres times when elis making audibles not bc the new play will work but bc he knows the original play is doomed.

Diamondring
01-10-2013, 03:43 AM
The plays are drawn up but Eli doesn't have to throw the ball within the play. If the receivers are open and the protection is still holding up, Eli should hold on to the ball and wait til the receivers get open on their own.

Drez
01-10-2013, 07:31 AM
Indeed, so Eli doesn't 'Call' run or pass, he can check to it based on the defense, but he can only call what Gilbride gave, so example the 3 Shotgun Draws

Eli wants to check into a run based on what the defense shows, but the only run he can check into is the Draw, if he see's the same defense 3 times in a row it's going to be a draw three time, and that is on Gilbride, because the run may be the superior option at that time, doesn't mean the Shotgun draw is the superior run choice,
Eli also has full audible control (of course limited by the personnel package that they are in).

And if you're in shotgun, there aren't a ton of different types of run plays you can call than a draw (or what looks like a draw to a common fan).

JayMas9
01-10-2013, 12:16 PM
well said actually that is a pretty good example of what im talking about. basically eli can only operate in the paremeters set by kgs scheme and offense. any decision eli will make will be based entirely upon that. u said it well thanksSo you have a problem with the scheme? Otherwise none of what you say makes any sense and basically is just you saying what happens in an offense.

giantsfan420
01-10-2013, 01:01 PM
So you have a problem with the scheme? Otherwise none of what you say makes any sense and basically is just you saying what happens in an offense.the only thing i have a problem with in this thread is people blaming solely kg, or solely eli. im just trying to squash the fallacy used over and over that "eli decides run/pass so it absolves KG"...thats it. i do have some issues with the scheme, but overall KGs made me eat crow more than Id like so Ive learned better.

slipknottin
01-10-2013, 01:07 PM
the only thing i have a problem with in this thread is people blaming solely kg, or solely eli. im just trying to squash the fallacy used over and over that "eli decides run/pass so it absolves KG"...thats it. i do have some issues with the scheme, but overall KGs made me eat crow more than Id like so Ive learned better.

Then stick up for gilbride when people get upset about a shotgun draw.

It's both Eli and gilbride who are responsible.

Eli makes the final decision run or pass. In shotgun there are not a wide variety of runs with an immobile QB.

Really I would like to see some pistol used with Eli so they could have both the I-runs and the shotgun vision. But that won't happen

BlueJayC
01-10-2013, 02:17 PM
Good for Gilbride......now give ANY other O coordinator in the league (outside of Sparano) Eli and the weapons the Giants have on O and they'd be #1 in the league year-in-year out.......unfortunately until a change is made this statement nor any other can be proved right or wrong.

Kruunch
01-10-2013, 02:40 PM
Then stick up for gilbride when people get upset about a shotgun draw.

It's both Eli and gilbride who are responsible.

Eli makes the final decision run or pass. In shotgun there are not a wide variety of runs with an immobile QB.

Really I would like to see some pistol used with Eli so they could have both the I-runs and the shotgun vision. But that won't happen

I'd like to see us get one real possession receiver to move the chains (or transition Bennett into this role).

DandyDon
01-10-2013, 03:19 PM
Dude I dont sugar coat anything. I would love to say something nice about our coaches I really would.
.

Can you provide a link to a post where you ever said something nice about giants coaches?

sideline sneek
01-11-2013, 11:49 AM
Can you provide a link to a post where you ever said something nice about giants coaches?SD is alright. He and I don't see eye to eye, however, his statements are his opinion. (even though there wrong) lol.

BlueReign
01-11-2013, 12:48 PM
I always say this.....GILBRIDE CAN DRAW PLAYS UP WITH THE BEST OF THEM. His playcalling is really, really bad though. Hell of an architect, but he can't put the house together correctly.

gumby74
01-11-2013, 02:08 PM
If you score 50 points in one game 40 the next, then 10, 10, and 10 next, it averages it out to 24 points a game. Still, for an offense, those are poor numbers.

Those 10 point games probably translated to 3 losses. Where as if the offense was more consistent, all 5 games were winnable.

Roosevelt
01-11-2013, 02:19 PM
ELI DECIDES RUN OR PASS AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE

Save your breath. That will never sink in.

Roosevelt
01-11-2013, 02:47 PM
http://boards.giants.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by slipknottin http://boards.giants.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://boards.giants.com/showthread.php?p=657785#post657785)

ELI DECIDES RUN OR PASS AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE




technically, the defense is deciding that

Please. The defense shows Eli want they want to show. Eli decides on the ultimate play based on his reads. Do you think it's possible that the defense could fool Eli? In that event, do you still blame Kevin for not teaching Eli well enough?



, as eli will pick the run play or pass play KG CALLS based on the defensive look...and eli decided run/pass based on the gameplan KG installs weekly. Dont just go to the other end of the spectrum and claim eli has total freedom to do as he pleases just to counter the argument its all on KG. its on both, but imo, mostly on KG.

Instead of stating the obvious through your twists and turns, what is your basis for this decision? For if you were correct then the primary reason for our success and failure rests on Kevin Gilbride over our players. Therefore you must give Kevin Gilbride most of the credit on the Eli to Tyree play in the Super Bowl. After all, it was all based on Kevin's playbook.



Eli can only choose between the 3 plays sent in from what I have read and understand. those 3 plays are based on the formation that KG sent in as well, meaning ive never seen us come out in a I formation, and eli audibles into a shotgun formation play..

Perhaps you are not as knowledgeable as you think. Sometimes Eli is given more than that. Sometimes he has 2 pass and 2 run plays as an example. Sometimes it's a set play regardless.


.Eli is making his decisions based on the parameters of KGs scheme and instruction. The decisions eli will make still has a ton of input from KG on when and why to make certain decisions...to try and excuse KG bc "eli decides run or pass" which is a slanted statement anyways, is as comical as people blaming solely kg.

Instead of just repeating your theory, maybe you could describe how KG system influenced two different plays. One positive and one negative. The Tyree play in '07, and the Eli left-hand interception earlier this year...

TheAnalyst
01-11-2013, 03:23 PM
Points Per Game -- 26.8 (5th)
Points Per Play -- 0.443 (2nd)
Touchdowns Per Game -- 2.9 (7th)
Red Zone Scoring Attempts Per Game -- 3.9 (4th)
Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TDs only) -- 54.84 percent (13th)
Plays Per Game -- 60.5 (31st)
Yards Per Play -- 5.9 (4th)
Avg. Time Of Possession -- 29:10 (23rd)
Third Down Conversion Percentage -- 40.62 percent (11th)
Rushing Attempts Per Game -- 25.6 (23rd)
Yards Per Rush Attempt -- 4.6 (7th)
Rushing Play Percentage -- 42.25 percent (15th)
Passing Yards Per Game -- 239.1 (12th)
Yards Per Pass Attempt -- 7.1 (11th)
Yards Per Completion -- 11.8 (4th)
QB Sacked Percentage -- 3.58 percent (2nd)
Average Team Passer Rating -- 87.2 (14th)

---

I think it is obvious where we need to improve. OLINE.

Roosevelt
01-11-2013, 03:44 PM
Plays Per Game -- 60.5 (31st)

Avg. Time Of Possession -- 29:10 (23rd)




These things corroborate what Coach Coughlin said about our defense being on the field too much.

Kruunch
01-11-2013, 04:00 PM
Points Per Game -- 26.8 (5th)
Points Per Play -- 0.443 (2nd)
Touchdowns Per Game -- 2.9 (7th)
Red Zone Scoring Attempts Per Game -- 3.9 (4th)
Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TDs only) -- 54.84 percent (13th)
Plays Per Game -- 60.5 (31st)
Yards Per Play -- 5.9 (4th)
Avg. Time Of Possession -- 29:10 (23rd)
Third Down Conversion Percentage -- 40.62 percent (11th)
Rushing Attempts Per Game -- 25.6 (23rd)
Yards Per Rush Attempt -- 4.6 (7th)
Rushing Play Percentage -- 42.25 percent (15th)
Passing Yards Per Game -- 239.1 (12th)
Yards Per Pass Attempt -- 7.1 (11th)
Yards Per Completion -- 11.8 (4th)
QB Sacked Percentage -- 3.58 percent (2nd)
Average Team Passer Rating -- 87.2 (14th)

---

I think it is obvious where we need to improve. OLINE.

Time of possession is an indictment on our defense.

And a testament to how fast our offense can score given the other stats.

giantsfan420
01-11-2013, 04:08 PM
Points Per Game -- 26.8 (5th)
Points Per Play -- 0.443 (2nd)
Touchdowns Per Game -- 2.9 (7th)
Red Zone Scoring Attempts Per Game -- 3.9 (4th)
Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TDs only) -- 54.84 percent (13th)
Plays Per Game -- 60.5 (31st)
Yards Per Play -- 5.9 (4th)
Avg. Time Of Possession -- 29:10 (23rd)
Third Down Conversion Percentage -- 40.62 percent (11th)
Rushing Attempts Per Game -- 25.6 (23rd)
Yards Per Rush Attempt -- 4.6 (7th)
Rushing Play Percentage -- 42.25 percent (15th)
Passing Yards Per Game -- 239.1 (12th)
Yards Per Pass Attempt -- 7.1 (11th)
Yards Per Completion -- 11.8 (4th)
QB Sacked Percentage -- 3.58 percent (2nd)
Average Team Passer Rating -- 87.2 (14th)

---

I think it is obvious where we need to improve. OLINE.wtf, how was this offense ranked so highly across the board except 2 or 3...everythings top half or better...where did this season go wrong???

yp completion(4th) and yp rush(7th) were top 7, was the redzone lack of tds really killing us that badly? Are the defensive stats the opposite in terms of ranking so highly across the board?

RoanokeFan
01-11-2013, 05:08 PM
wtf, how was this offense ranked so highly across the board except 2 or 3...everythings top half or better...where did this season go wrong???

yp completion(4th) and yp rush(7th) were top 7, was the redzone lack of tds really killing us that badly? Are the defensive stats the opposite in terms of ranking so highly across the board?

Do we need to throw some cold water on you?

giantsfan420
01-11-2013, 06:23 PM
lol im fine

ELIte4MVP
01-11-2013, 06:25 PM
Good for Gilbride......now give ANY other O coordinator in the league (outside of Sparano) Eli and the weapons the Giants have on O and they'd be #1 in the league year-in-year out.......unfortunately until a change is made this statement nor any other can be proved right or wrong.

Oh my god...

Roosevelt
01-11-2013, 06:27 PM
where did this season go wrong???


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3207/titanicgull.jpg

Ruttiger711
01-11-2013, 08:02 PM
"Points Per Play -- 0.443 (2nd)"

Has to be one the oddest stats I've seen. File that one under WGAS.