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View Full Version : Think of how bad Tim Lewis & Bill Sheridan were...



NYG4lifeNYK
01-21-2013, 06:12 AM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...

KingLurker
01-21-2013, 07:11 AM
Doesn't anyone think our offenses inability to sustain drives put more pressure on our defense then it could handle in some games. A bunch of times our defense came up with a turnover just so the offense could go three and out and send our defense back on the field.

Flip Empty
01-21-2013, 07:24 AM
Doesn't anyone think our offenses inability to sustain drives put more pressure on our defense then it could handle in some games. A bunch of times our defense came up with a turnover just so the offense could go three and out and send our defense back on the field.
Logic doesn't exist on here, so, no.

Markroman
01-21-2013, 07:59 AM
How do you blame an offense that scores over 400 points a season for last 6 years?

brad
01-21-2013, 08:04 AM
How do you blame an offense that scores over 400 points a season for last 6 years?

There were several games this year (3 I think) in which the offense was unable to find the end zone at all... those game can certainly be look at as losses by the offense. However, a good defense would have kept it competitive, and this defense was unable to do that for the majority of games. So, I guess I am saying I agree with you, blaming the offense for such a poor showing by the defense is ridiculous, both were pretty bad this year.

gmen0820
01-21-2013, 08:39 AM
Oh my god, get the **** over it. No coaching changes, case close, end of discussion.

bigblue58
01-21-2013, 08:45 AM
Doesn't anyone think our offenses inability to sustain drives put more pressure on our defense then it could handle in some games. A bunch of times our defense came up with a turnover just so the offense could go three and out and send our defense back on the field.

No...you actually have it backwards! It was actually the Defense's inability to get off the field, and keep opponents out of the endzone, that put us so far behind, in so many games, that the Offense was never given a fighting chance to come back in any of them!
The Offense had an off year, but at least you can see reasons for it......injuries, an aging OL that gave neither protection to Eli or opened holes for the running game, while there is no justifiable argument for the Defense, that couldn't cover, couldn't rush the QB despite being healthier than they'd been in years!
The fact that Fewell kept his job, only makes you wonder why Sheridan ever lost his.
Fewell is so bad at DC, that he can't even Defend Coughlin's decision to keep him!!

brad
01-21-2013, 08:50 AM
No...you actually have it backwards! It was actually the Defense's inability to get off the field, and keep opponents out of the endzone, that put us so far behind, in so many games, that the Offense was never given a fighting chance to come back in any of them!
The Offense had an off year, but at least you can see reasons for it......injuries, an aging OL that gave neither protection to Eli or opened holes for the running game, while there is no justifiable argument for the Defense, that couldn't cover, couldn't rush the QB despite being healthier than they'd been in years!

I think you may be going to far the other way.... just a little. The defense, especially early in the season, had more than it's share of injuries. T2 hurt before the season started, Canty, Rivers, KP.. you name it. There was only a handful of defensive players that played every game.

As for the offense suffering because of the defense, probably in a few games. But there was just as many where the offense did absolutely nothing and that wasn't the fault of the defense. Both sides of the ball had some really bad games, they can each take the blame for their own inability to play up to the level that they should have.

Die-Hard
01-21-2013, 09:07 AM
How do you blame an offense that scores over 400 points a season for last 6 years?

How many of those points were Tynes FG's/XP's this season, out of 429 total points scored by the team? 145

This offense went 3 and out way more than people realize

bigblue58
01-21-2013, 09:27 AM
How many of those points were Tynes FG's/XP's this season, out of 429 total points scored by the team? 145

This offense went 3 and out way more than people realize

Dude, the Giants avg'd 27 points a game and finished the year ranked 14th in rushing and 12th in passing even with all their problems!
The D finsihed one spot above THE WORST!! End of story
Who cares how they scored over 400 points? They still had those points on the scoreboard.
What kind of logic is that?

Kruunch
01-21-2013, 09:29 AM
How many of those points were Tynes FG's/XP's this season, out of 429 total points scored by the team? 145

This offense went 3 and out way more than people realize

They also were one of the best offenses in red-zone trips.

People get hung up on a few games for far too long.

Redeyejedi
01-21-2013, 09:30 AM
How do you blame an offense that scores over 400 points a season for last 6 years? They were extremely inconsistent. The Giants lost 1 game where they scored 20 points against the Steelers. The NFL now if u cant score 20 points U should expect to lose the game. The defense wasnt that good but everyone saying they were 31st rank thats complete BS thats in yards, They were 12th in points tied with the Ravens defense everyone fawns over for some reason.
Bill Sheridans defense was 30th in points

52 Saints
42 Eagles
36 Panthers
42 Browns
41 Bucs
38 packers

251 in 6 games

178 in the other 10

Redeyejedi
01-21-2013, 09:32 AM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...The Giants defense was 12th in points allowed this season. So until yardage determines who wins or losses it was not worse than Sheridans

Kruunch
01-21-2013, 09:49 AM
The Giants defense was 12th in points allowed this season. So until yardage determines who wins or losses it was not worse than Sheridans

I agree and I hate the fact that "overall defense" is ranked by yards allowed (especially in today's NFL). However, having said that, if you give up a ton of yards, that will lead to points sooner or later. It also means you're losing time of possession which puts your offense in a bad position (and that definitely happened this year).

We lost a big piece on offense this year with Nicks being hobbled all year. The Giants offense was predicated on having an inside-out threat which ran really well with Cruz/Nicks last year. Without Nicks operating at 100%, teams could smother Cruz and we just couldn't execute well enough across the board to make up the difference (not to mention our inability to go to a short game).

On defense we had quite a number of "under performers". Tuck, Osi, CWeb, Boley and Kiwi. Add to that guys who couldn't contribute fully due to injuries such as Canty, JWill and KP and you have a defense that was badly neutered. I don't happen to think THAT many pro-bowl caliber players all of a sudden become "bad" at the same time. It's up to the DC to get everyone on the same page and buy into the schemes that are laid out. That obviously didn't happen this year. I think there is a fairly large disconnect between PF and his players.

Die-Hard
01-21-2013, 10:02 AM
They also were one of the best offenses in red-zone trips.

People get hung up on a few games for far too long.

All I know is, when your FG kicker leads the team in points by a LARGE margin, it's rarely a good thing. Much like a safety leading the team in tackles(hypothetical situation), it usually means that the people in front of him aren't doing something right.

slipknottin
01-21-2013, 10:13 AM
Lets look at it this way. Who were the best players on the defense?

JPP with 6.5 sacks?

Prince who only got thrown at 20 or so times all season and missed a few games?

Then who? Stevie Brown?

Then... Osi? Tuck? Linval?

There is not all that much talent on this defense, at all.

All three starting LBs may be gone or in Kiwis case moving to DE.

Webster had a down year who knows if he can recover.

Osi is gone who was second on the team in pressures.

Kiwi was a total non factor at both DL and LB.

Kruunch
01-21-2013, 10:19 AM
All I know is, when your FG kicker leads the team in points by a LARGE margin, it's rarely a good thing. Much like a safety leading the team in tackles(hypothetical situation), it usually means that the people in front of him aren't doing something right.

We were 6th in points per game on offense.

I don't care who's scoring the points, as long as they're getting on the board.

mike kennedy
01-21-2013, 10:53 AM
It's only somewhat on PF. These guys are professionals and they have not complained all year about the defensive schemes that Perry had them doing. No guts no glory.The defense gave up! Osi was a thorn in the side as usual and hopefully we don't have to put up with him anymore. Tuck was injured and too busy praising the other team before games and our secondary was shot, pass rush, blah, blah, blah!

Buddy333
01-21-2013, 11:19 AM
How could anyone question Eli and the offense? They played great this year. Most of their money is invested in the offense and they scored 14 points in two games, 7 of those in garbage time. On top of that the turnovers that set up the opposition in the red zone should not count either right?

gmen0820
01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
251 in 6 games

178 in the other 10Context, what an awesome thing, eh Redeye?

Buddy333
01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
We were 6th in points per game on offense.I don't care who's scoring the points, as long as they're getting on the board.This is absolutely wrong. Settling for field goals all the time is how you lose games.

Markroman
01-21-2013, 11:22 AM
For years the Giants defense has been built around its front four applying pressure. The Giants Defensive line failed miserably to get to the QB. When you draft pass rushers over and over again and do not finish top ten in sacks let alone top 5. You have a MAJOR issue.

The Giants LB core may be the worst in the NFL and has been very weak for far far too long. Look how many players have been shuffled in and out over last 5 years.

Buddy333
01-21-2013, 11:24 AM
Lets also get something straight. The most important defensive stat is points allowed. They where ranked 12th in that department. That's not that bad. Of all the points the offense scored how many came off of all the turnovers the defense created? How many offensive turnovers by the Giants placed the opposing team in scoring position?

Kruunch
01-21-2013, 12:28 PM
This is absolutely wrong. Settling for field goals all the time is how you lose games.

Scoring less than your opponent is how you lose games.

I don't care if we reached 6th in scoring on safeties.

Buddy333
01-21-2013, 09:43 PM
Scoring less than your opponent is how you lose games.I don't care if we reached 6th in scoring on safeties.Exactly. So when you kick field goals and settle for 3 instead of 7 you score less points.

BlueSanta
01-22-2013, 12:13 AM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...


I am in no way supporting this years defense, they played like garbage.

But, your statement that this is the worst NYG defense ever is debatable. The 2009 team gave up WAY more points than this 1, almost 5 more points per game.

Its not worth arguing really, as it is like deciding which pile of dung smells the best when smell is completely subjective. But, the 2009 defense is still the worst I have seen, in my opinion.

GTGiantsFan
01-22-2013, 12:38 AM
We duck taped the defense, hoping Eli and the offense could carry the team. But when Nicks got injured and the running game couldn't get going we became very one dimensional and that dimension wasn't as dynamic without the #1 receiver. And the D came apart late last season.

Robert21156
01-22-2013, 01:05 AM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...
The Giants have given up more than 6,000 yards in a season only twice in history. Guess which 2 years? Yep, 2011 and 2012.

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 01:19 AM
They also were one of the best offenses in red-zone trips.

People get hung up on a few games for far too long.iirc we also had a decent 3rd down conversion % as well. iirc it was at least top 15...the offense had 3 horrendous games, the defense prob had about 7 or 8 horrendous games

BlueBlooded1979
01-22-2013, 02:23 AM
Anyone who thinks this was even a mediocre defense is touched in the head. They ranked right up there with Lewis's patented "Cover Nada" and Sheridians "Fire Me" defense. Being 12th in points allowed and 31st in yards allowed means something is very wrong with your defense. There isn't one good defense in history with that large of a spread. Any system that allows you defense to be pushed up and down the field sends the wrong message to those guys philosophically. Physically it just means you can't get a stop when you need one and you are banking on turnovers to even be somewhat respectable.

JB456
01-22-2013, 11:25 AM
How do you blame an offense that scores over 400 points a season for last 6 years?

Logic doesn't exist on here, so , no.

joemorrisforprez
01-22-2013, 02:32 PM
Fewell is running a defense that depends on turnovers.....for what it's worth, the Giants forced alot of them this season.

However the defense simply couldn't hold up against offenses that avoided big mistakes.....the Falcons and Ravens in particular.

Drez
01-22-2013, 02:42 PM
Doesn't anyone think our offenses inability to sustain drives put more pressure on our defense then it could handle in some games. A bunch of times our defense came up with a turnover just so the offense could go three and out and send our defense back on the field.
Can't blame the offense for the defense giving up over 40 plays of 20+ yards.

Drez
01-22-2013, 02:44 PM
Anyone who thinks this was even a mediocre defense is touched in the head. They ranked right up there with Lewis's patented "Cover Nada" and Sheridians "Fire Me" defense. Being 12th in points allowed and 31st in yards allowed means something is very wrong with your defense. There isn't one good defense in history with that large of a spread. Any system that allows you defense to be pushed up and down the field sends the wrong message to those guys philosophically. Physically it just means you can't get a stop when you need one and you are banking on turnovers to even be somewhat respectable.
So, if our guys are getting beat physically, does that speak more of the players performance or the scheme?

gmen46
01-22-2013, 06:29 PM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...

Feel free to be sick, if that's your thing.

But "absolute worst defense in franchise history"? Absurd. Not even close.

You're looking at yards allowed, only, and deciding to put a bullet to your head.

The fact is that in nearly all other factors evaluating defenses, our regular season 2012 defense was better than our 2011 regular season, Super Bowl-winning, defense.

Aside from our drop off in defending 3rd down conversion attempts (42% in 2012 vs 38% in 2011)--which I would argue hurt us far more than a few more yards allowed--our 2012 defense performed better than our 2011 defense during the season.

In 2012 we were 12th in least points allowed (21.5/gm) vs 2011 when we were 24th (25.0 / gm).

In 2012 we were tied for 4th with 14 fumble recoveries, vs 2011 we were tied for 7th with 11.

In 2012 we were tied for 3rd with 21 INTs, vs 2011 we were tied for 6th with 20 INTs.

As a result of these 2012 improvements in all key aspects of our defense--aside from allowing 7 yds more per game in 2012 vs 2011, and the aforesaid inferior defense on 3rd dwn att in 2012-- we were better in 2012 in "plus turnover ratio". ranked 4th with +14 (vs a decent rank of 7th with +7 in 2011), we were better in 2012 in net points scored/allowed (+85) vs 2011 (-6), and as stated above, we allowed fewer points per game (21.5) in 2012 than in 2011 (25.0).

The reason these other defensive stats are important is that in many seasons, teams with inferior yards defense often make the playoffs not only because they may score a ton of points on offense (see 2011 Packers and Patriots), but also because these teams compensate defensively with superior efforts in creating turnovers (as we did this year), setting their offenses up with added opportunities which often result in more scoring, as did happen for us in many games this year.

What hurt us this year, and what kept us out of the post season, was the oft-cited inconsistent team performances throughout the season. Obvious point, but seems to be overlooked often in the race to hysterically rant about which coaches and starting players we must "get rid of".

Our defense was terrific in most of our wins, and was not as horrible as many insist they were in a few of our losses. Our Defense was definitely outplayed overall in the first game vs Cowboys, the Bengals game, the Falcons and the Ravens games. Those games were extremely disappointing and the lack of decent defense was at fault to a great degree. But we also could not do much, if anything, right on Offense in those games, either. Can't ignore that.

On the other hand, we were in the first Eagles game, and the second Redskins game, right up until the final seconds of each game. I won't bash Tynes for missing the last second 53 (51?) yd FG in the Eagles game--he arguably should not have even been in that situation. There were a couple other plays before that desperation attempt that may have enabled a win.

But the real killer for our season, in my view, was the result of the second Skins game. That game was winnable up to the last, and our 2012 offense--unlike in many of our close games in 2011--just could not pull it off. Even if Tynes had made an earlier FG attempt, one within his normal high-percentage range, that could well have saved the season for us--regardless of those horrendous Falcons and Ravens performances. Everything else the same, we win that second Redskins game, we win the division, period.

Even starting a thread condemning Fewell and 2012 as the "worst defense in franchise history" as a joke would be ignorant.

barran21
01-22-2013, 06:47 PM
Yards per game is a horrible stat for ranking defense/offense, OP is overreacting, under Spags we gave up 21.9 points per game and won a SB in 2007, last year we gave up 21.9 and didn't make the playoffs...

Edit:OP under yards per game ranking the Steelers were the #1 defense in the league and finished 8-8...

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-22-2013, 06:52 PM
Fewell is running a defense that depends on turnovers.....for what it's worth, the Giants forced alot of them this season.

However the defense simply couldn't hold up against offenses that avoided big mistakes.....the Falcons and Ravens in particular.

Radio needs to make more adjustments on D, it's ok, we won't be mad.

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 06:55 PM
This is absolutely wrong. Settling for field goals all the time is how you lose games.what?? lmfao. wtf r u even talking about? It is absolutely correct. we WERE 6th in points per game...

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 06:58 PM
Feel free to be sick, if that's your thing.

But "absolute worst defense in franchise history"? Absurd. Not even close.

You're looking at yards allowed, only, and deciding to put a bullet to your head.

The fact is that in nearly all other factors evaluating defenses, our regular season 2012 defense was better than our 2011 regular season, Super Bowl-winning, defense.

Aside from our drop off in defending 3rd down conversion attempts (42% in 2012 vs 38% in 2011)--which I would argue hurt us far more than a few more yards allowed--our 2012 defense performed better than our 2011 defense during the season.

In 2012 we were 12th in least points allowed (21.5/gm) vs 2011 when we were 24th (25.0 / gm).

In 2012 we were tied for 4th with 14 fumble recoveries, vs 2011 we were tied for 7th with 11.

In 2012 we were tied for 3rd with 21 INTs, vs 2011 we were tied for 6th with 20 INTs.

As a result of these 2012 improvements in all key aspects of our defense--aside from allowing 7 yds more per game in 2012 vs 2011, and the aforesaid inferior defense on 3rd dwn att in 2012-- we were better in 2012 in "plus turnover ratio". ranked 4th with +14 (vs a decent rank of 7th with +7 in 2011), we were better in 2012 in net points scored/allowed (+85) vs 2011 (-6), and as stated above, we allowed fewer points per game (21.5) in 2012 than in 2011 (25.0).

The reason these other defensive stats are important is that in many seasons, teams with inferior yards defense often make the playoffs not only because they may score a ton of points on offense (see 2011 Packers and Patriots), but also because these teams compensate defensively with superior efforts in creating turnovers (as we did this year), setting their offenses up with added opportunities which often result in more scoring, as did happen for us in many games this year.

What hurt us this year, and what kept us out of the post season, was the oft-cited inconsistent team performances throughout the season. Obvious point, but seems to be overlooked often in the race to hysterically rant about which coaches and starting players we must "get rid of".

Our defense was terrific in most of our wins, and was not as horrible as many insist they were in a few of our losses. Our Defense was definitely outplayed overall in the first game vs Cowboys, the Bengals game, the Falcons and the Ravens games. Those games were extremely disappointing and the lack of decent defense was at fault to a great degree. But we also could not do much, if anything, right on Offense in those games, either. Can't ignore that.

On the other hand, we were in the first Eagles game, and the second Redskins game, right up until the final seconds of each game. I won't bash Tynes for missing the last second 53 (51?) yd FG in the Eagles game--he arguably should not have even been in that situation. There were a couple other plays before that desperation attempt that may have enabled a win.

But the real killer for our season, in my view, was the result of the second Skins game. That game was winnable up to the last, and our 2012 offense--unlike in many of our close games in 2011--just could not pull it off. Even if Tynes had made an earlier FG attempt, one within his normal high-percentage range, that could well have saved the season for us--regardless of those horrendous Falcons and Ravens performances. Everything else the same, we win that second Redskins game, we win the division, period.

Even starting a thread condemning Fewell and 2012 as the "worst defense in franchise history" as a joke would be ignorant.yeah but theres one huge caveat to all that, the 2011 D sucked in the regular season, they were a completely different unit come postseason...just bc the defense was better in some areas doesnt mean it was sufficient (which i dont think ur trying to argue, just clarifying).

and 3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defense

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-22-2013, 07:01 PM
"3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defense" http://boards.giants.com/clear.gif (http://boards.giants.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=668631)

very true.

Redeyejedi
01-22-2013, 07:16 PM
The Defense was worse than the Offense for sure but the Defense wasnt the worst Giants defense ever . The Offense had its hiccups in 6 games they failed to score 20 points and they lost every 1. The 7th game they lost they scored exactly 20.
U cant expect to win games in this era not scoring 20 points

Redeyejedi
01-22-2013, 07:18 PM
yeah but theres one huge caveat to all that, the 2011 D sucked in the regular season, they were a completely different unit come postseason...just bc the defense was better in some areas doesnt mean it was sufficient (which i dont think ur trying to argue, just clarifying).

and 3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defenseThere was a huge difference in the Defense in games K Phillips played. In the games Phillips played they gave up 18 ppg in games he didnt 25.5. Looked like to me Fewell was willing to be more aggressive with coverage when he played

BlueSanta
01-22-2013, 08:47 PM
"3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defense" http://boards.giants.com/clear.gif (http://boards.giants.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=668631)

very true.


You know what matters even more? Point allowed. The primary function of a defense is, after all, to keep the other team from scoring. This years defense was bad, but the 2009 defense let up almost 5 more points per game. They still get my vote.

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-22-2013, 08:50 PM
You know what matters even more? Point allowed. The primary function of a defense is, after all, to keep the other team from scoring. This years defense was bad, but the 2009 defense let up almost 5 more points per game. They still get my vote.

point arent allowed if you stop them on 3rd down and force them to punt.

gmen46
01-22-2013, 09:45 PM
yeah but theres one huge caveat to all that, the 2011 D sucked in the regular season, they were a completely different unit come postseason...just bc the defense was better in some areas doesnt mean it was sufficient (which i dont think ur trying to argue, just clarifying).

and 3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defense

You're right about the pick-up in our defense in the post season. But I also think it's important to factor in their last 2 reg season games as the beginning of their defensive improvement, which I think you'll agree was a large part of the reason for that 6 game run. And is the reason I consider comparing 2012 season to 2011 reg season numbers as a valid comparison, as far as they go.

Yes, the 3rd dwn percentage hurt us in a major way in most of our losses, which I was trying to say was more meaningful to our losses than mere total yards allowed, which again, I think most would agree.

But I neglected to include another defensive stat which, like 3rd downs, is one of the most critical and in which we did rather well in 2012.

Red Zone scoring (TDs). In 2012 we were 4th best in defending the Red Zone. It was noticeable to me watching most of the games, that we had improved in that area. But I did not realize until I looked up the stat for 2012 that we were ranked 4th best with 46% TDs allowed in the Red Zone. That is huge, and would usually, along with scoring an ave of 3.5 more points than we allowed, result in at least 2-3 more wins than we finished with.

Conversely, we were 13th / 14th in offensive Red Zone scoring (between 54-55%), nearly identical to that of 2011. That hurt us in at least the 1st Eagles game and the 2nd Redskins game.

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 09:48 PM
You're right about the pick-up in our defense in the post season. But I also think it's important to factor in their last 2 reg season games as the beginning of their defensive improvement, which I think you'll agree was a large part of the reason for that 6 game run. And is the reason I consider comparing 2012 season to 2011 reg season numbers as a valid comparison, as far as they go.

Yes, the 3rd dwn percentage hurt us in a major way in most of our losses, which I was trying to say was more meaningful to our losses than mere total yards allowed, which again, I think most would agree.

But I neglected to include another defensive stat which, like 3rd downs, is one of the most critical and in which we did rather well in 2012.

Red Zone scoring (TDs). In 2012 we were 4th best in defending the Red Zone. It was noticeable to me watching most of the games, that we had improved in that area. But I did not realize until I looked up the stat for 2012 that we were ranked 4th best with 46% TDs allowed in the Red Zone. That is huge, and would usually, along with scoring an ave of 3.5 more points than we allowed, result in at least 2-3 more wins than we finished with.

Conversely, we were 13th / 14th in offensive Red Zone scoring, nearly identical to that of 2011. That hurt us in at least the 1st Eagles game and the 2nd Redskins game.every post u make impresses me man lol dang, you got one functioning brain there pal...lucky you. I hope to be able to make such a claim one day lol. but yeah I agree with you, as usual.

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 09:51 PM
The Defense was worse than the Offense for sure but the Defense wasnt the worst Giants defense ever . The Offense had its hiccups in 6 games they failed to score 20 points and they lost every 1. The 7th game they lost they scored exactly 20.
U cant expect to win games in this era not scoring 20 points


There was a huge difference in the Defense in games K Phillips played. In the games Phillips played they gave up 18 ppg in games he didnt 25.5. Looked like to me Fewell was willing to be more aggressive with coverage when he played

agreed.


btw, you and gmen46 should get together and open up a website based on a sorta "football for dummies" theme. both you two, and a few others around here, really really know their stuff but more importantly can convey it in a way that can be understood by us "normies" lol...

Buddy333
01-22-2013, 10:02 PM
"3rd down defense is a huge element that decides success/failure of a defense" http://boards.giants.com/clear.gif (http://boards.giants.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=668631)very true.So was 3rd down offense.

Buddy333
01-22-2013, 10:03 PM
The Defense was worse than the Offense for sure but the Defense wasnt the worst Giants defense ever . The Offense had its hiccups in 6 games they failed to score 20 points and they lost every 1. The 7th game they lost they scored exactly 20.U cant expect to win games in this era not scoring 20 pointsThe defense was bad, but the offense was worse.

Drez
01-22-2013, 10:08 PM
You're right about the pick-up in our defense in the post season. But I also think it's important to factor in their last 2 reg season games as the beginning of their defensive improvement, which I think you'll agree was a large part of the reason for that 6 game run. And is the reason I consider comparing 2012 season to 2011 reg season numbers as a valid comparison, as far as they go.

Yes, the 3rd dwn percentage hurt us in a major way in most of our losses, which I was trying to say was more meaningful to our losses than mere total yards allowed, which again, I think most would agree.

But I neglected to include another defensive stat which, like 3rd downs, is one of the most critical and in which we did rather well in 2012.

Red Zone scoring (TDs). In 2012 we were 4th best in defending the Red Zone. It was noticeable to me watching most of the games, that we had improved in that area. But I did not realize until I looked up the stat for 2012 that we were ranked 4th best with 46% TDs allowed in the Red Zone. That is huge, and would usually, along with scoring an ave of 3.5 more points than we allowed, result in at least 2-3 more wins than we finished with.

Conversely, we were 13th / 14th in offensive Red Zone scoring (between 54-55%), nearly identical to that of 2011. That hurt us in at least the 1st Eagles game and the 2nd Redskins game.
A big issue with the defense was the sheer number of big plays allowed. I think we gave up something like over 40 plays of over 20 yards. We were the third or fourth worst team in the league.

Drystt
01-22-2013, 10:35 PM
As much as Tim Lewis' defense was doo doo, Strahan still managed to break the single season sack record under it and got DPOY. Sheridan had some very big shoes to fill with Spag's scheme. I feel that he was under an enormous amount of pressure and some people cannot perform under such conditions. I'm sure Tampa Bay will get better in time if they decide to keep him.

nycisgreat
01-22-2013, 10:40 PM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...

I share the same sediment. Bill Sheridan was given one opportunity while Fewell has been given chance after chance.

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 10:45 PM
A big issue with the defense was the sheer number of big plays allowed. I think we gave up something like over 40 plays of over 20 yards. We were the third or fourth worst team in the league.it seemed like we gave up a 3rd and 20 or more at least 1x a game

giantsfan420
01-22-2013, 10:46 PM
As much as Tim Lewis' defense was doo doo, Strahan still managed to break the single season sack record under it and got DPOY. Sheridan had some very big shoes to fill with Spag's scheme. I feel that he was under an enormous amount of pressure and some people cannot perform under such conditions. I'm sure Tampa Bay will get better in time if they decide to keep him.??wasnt that under Fox?

Drystt
01-22-2013, 10:48 PM
Ah tooshe, Confused 01 & 02 seasons. ;/

giantsfan420
01-23-2013, 12:02 AM
Ah tooshe, Confused 01 & 02 seasons. ;/u might be right i was more asking. i thought it was fox...

nycsportzfan
01-23-2013, 07:16 AM
The defense is the main issue, but upgrading OLINE is also a must.. But its kinda hard to blame fewell, when he had to deal with tons of injuries and TUCK OSI and JPP combining for 16.5 sacks, which just isn't gonna cut it...

Toadofsteel
01-23-2013, 08:33 AM
As far as i'm concerned, PF played with much more of a handicap this season than Killdrive did. Webster, Tuck, and Osi flat out refused to perform at the level they are known for (it is unknown whether it was injuries or decline, perhaps both, that affected them). Boley, Williams and Rivers were both injured for a large part of the season, as was Canty, and KP as well. For the most part, PF tried to work with the personnel he had. 3 safety sets happened a few times (especially when KP was able to see the field), and while the 4-4 set that was used against the Ravens didn't really work, I have to give PF credit for at least trying something new instead of just going with the same old BS. Not to mention PF actually gave rookies a chance to grow and develop (Hosley, Kuhn). The ONLY thing I personally lay at the feet of PF is the fact that he didn't give any playing time to Ojomo and little to Tracy, even with regards to a rotational basis, and I still wonder if that was his decision or if TC overruled him on personnel (Ojomo was only active in one game all season, for instance).

Killdrive had a LOT more to work with. The only real injuries were to Brown, Locklear, and to a certain extent, Bradshaw and Nicks. Yet Killdrive forged on ahead as though they were all healthy. Moreover, giving Diehl play time over a healthy Locklear makes me scratch my head (although I feel that was TC's choice). He didn't let Wilson or Randle gain crucial field experience until it was too late, and pretty much NEVER gave Robinson a chance (is he REALLY worse than Bear Pascoe or Travis Beckum?) The system never changed as well... it was the same old predictable playcalling: throw deep on third and short, run on third and long, use low% deep passes a lot with no slants or screens, and the famous shotgun draw. The funny thing is, the games where Killdrive actually did show some spark of creativity were games we won in blowout fashion (49ers game had direct snap to Bradshaw, Saints game had a reverse to Cruz, etc., both fairly early in the game as well)


TL;DR, defensive woes are due to injury more than system, while the opposite holds true (to a lesser extent) for offense. Overall, however, there was a lot of untapped talent in depth that we didn't use.

JJC7301
01-23-2013, 01:31 PM
I would take this year's D over Lewis and Sheridan's D anytime.

JB456
01-23-2013, 03:38 PM
The defense was bad, but the offense was worse.

This should be in red font.

I am not going to sit here and tell you the offense was great or even good but I will confidently say they were a little bit above average. The defense on the other hand was ATTROCIOUS. Come on man, how many 500 yard games did they give up? They couldn't get off the field. Who gives a flying fark how many point the give up if they let the other team control the clock and have multiple long drives a game? They were putting our offense in bad a position by having less time of possession and worse field position. When did you ever feel comfortable that they would ever force a 3 and out? For me thats a simple answer, NEVER!

Roosevelt
01-23-2013, 04:19 PM
They were extremely inconsistent. The Giants lost 1 game where they scored 20 points against the Steelers. The NFL now if u cant score 20 points U should expect to lose the game. The defense wasnt that good but everyone saying they were 31st rank thats complete BS thats in yards, They were 12th in points tied with the Ravens defense everyone fawns over for some reason.
Bill Sheridans defense was 30th in points

52 Saints
42 Eagles
36 Panthers
42 Browns
41 Bucs
38 packers

251 in 6 games

178 in the other 10

Yes, I heard something along the lines of every time we score 21 or more points, we won.

Roosevelt
01-23-2013, 04:21 PM
... and now wrap your head around the fact that we just had the absolute worst defense in franchise history under Fewell:(


I'm going to be sick...

You need to understand that we are trying to keep our coaches. If our OC or DC are too successful they'll sign as a HC with another team.

JesseJames
01-23-2013, 04:44 PM
this seasons defense was a humiliation to the franchise but it narrows down for where Reese has to look for what needs fixing

Drez
01-23-2013, 04:47 PM
Yes, I heard something along the lines of every time we score 21 or more points, we won.
Out of curiosity, I wonder in how many of those games where we failed to score 20 points had the defense either, given up a big lead early (thus making us more one dimensional offensively) or given up a lead late, just to see how the situational factors reflect in the final score.

JesseJames
01-24-2013, 10:45 AM
the simple fact that we had the worst defense in franchise history and we're bringing back the DC for another chance to do it again tells me that the team feels this seasons defensive failure was ALL on the players

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 11:13 AM
the simple fact that we had the worst defense in franchise history and we're bringing back the DC for another chance to do it again tells me that the team feels this seasons defensive failure was ALL on the playersyeah but in 2010, when PF had a healthy(ish) unit, his D was like top 10/top 5 across the board

Toadofsteel
01-24-2013, 11:43 AM
yeah but in 2010, when PF had a healthy(ish) unit, his D was like top 10/top 5 across the board

This. Between some players being hurt and others not caring, our defense was gimped at the point of attack. PF did what he could, experimenting with various personnel packages to put the healthiest players on the field, but it wasn't enough... As I've said numerous times, the only thing he could have done to send clear shockwaves through our defense and hopefully galvanize it would have been to bench Tuck or at least strip him of his captain status. I guess that it would have done more to destabilize the locker room rather than improve it...