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slipknottin
01-22-2013, 10:29 PM
round 1 - CB - Xavier Rhodes
Big physical CB, fits if the giants want to run more tampa 2.

round 2 - ILB - Arthur Brown
Think he can play inside in a 4-3. Best stack/shed LB in the draft

round 3 - DE - Corey Lemonier
Undersized, but could be a great sub package rusher. But him at DE on passing downs and move Tuck/Kiwi inside.

round 4 - OLB - Sio Moore
Going to be at a minimum a very good ST player, but I think eventually he could play some SAM, could offer some ability as a blitzer as well.

round 5 - DT - Bennie Logan
Think he is the next Barry Cofield

round 6 - TE Michael Williams
Tremendous blocker, potentially could add some weight and move to OT. Could be a great replacement for Pascoe at least

round 7 - K Dustin Hopkins
If Tynes is not brought back need to bring in some kickers to compete for the job.

G-Men Surg.
01-22-2013, 10:58 PM
I like it ! Rhodes can bring that dog mentality this D lacks specially in CB position. Arthur Brown is a player I've watched all year long and love all about the kid, great leader, excellent athlete but I don't think he's a MLB at the next level, can fit in Fewell system as a WLB an. Don't like Corey's size to play DE but can understand the possibilities of using him as a situational pass rush. Sio is tough and like his aggressive syle of play. Bennie is a sound DT that can excell in blue, very athletic and showed good intelligence and football knowledge reading plays. Michael Williams pick is the one I like in later rounds, he is just tough as nails, huge run blocker and has above average hands. A K in the 7 th round heh, why not.

Just one question, no OL draft picks ?

slipknottin
01-22-2013, 11:08 PM
Just one question, no OL draft picks ?

There are a ton of FA OL this year. Some could be had cheap.

If Beatty is not retained then OL becomes a much bigger need

G-Men Surg.
01-22-2013, 11:18 PM
I think Beatty his a priority to resign. If the Giants take care of him I would not mind looking to get younger and start building up again our O-line , there's a few players I will be thrilled to have in blue in this years draft like Travis Frederick. Its time to let the quick fix aside and start building back our O-line .

Kruunch
01-23-2013, 08:05 AM
I like Xavier Rhodes in the first if the pass rusher we want isn't available.

I'm ok with Arthur Brown in the second but it wouldn't be my first choice (or second choice rather) and I just don't see the Giants picking an ILB in the second. But this could be the year they break with tradition (lord knows there's a need).

Not thrilled with your next two picks. I don't like one dimensional guys (Lemonier) and we have enough filler LBers on the team already to be indiscriminantly adding more (that's what the Moore pick would feel like to me in the 4th).

LOVE Bennie Logans in the 5th (mostly because I had the same exact thoughts and placement on him :D )

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 09:48 AM
I'm struggling more and more with the first round. Rhodes is a good player, but this draft is deep at CB and I would argue mid round guys are potentially as good as Rhodes. Wreh-Wilson to me is as good of a prospect.

I am still not sure if ansah would ever be a top pass rusher. He never dips around the corner. Not sure he has the flexibility to do it.

I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds

So where do they go? The other DE prospects? Maybe Mingo is there.


As far as one dimensional player like Lemonier. A pass rush specialist is such a valuable commodity. Look at the year Aldon Smith had his rookie year or Bruce Irvin this year.

And Sio Moore is a much better player than herzlich or Paysinger. He could certainly play significant snaps on defense.

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 11:35 AM
I'm struggling more and more with the first round. Rhodes is a good player, but this draft is deep at CB and I would argue mid round guys are potentially as good as Rhodes. Wreh-Wilson to me is as good of a prospect.

I am still not sure if ansah would ever be a top pass rusher. He never dips around the corner. Not sure he has the flexibility to do it.

I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds

So where do they go? The other DE prospects? Maybe Mingo is there.


As far as one dimensional player like Lemonier. A pass rush specialist is such a valuable commodity. Look at the year Aldon Smith had his rookie year or Bruce Irvin this year.

And Sio Moore is a much better player than herzlich or Paysinger. He could certainly play significant snaps on defense.

Worst LB against the run?!! I can't disagree more. He's a LB in the SEC... and looked just fine against teams like LSU and Alabama (teams loaded with future NFL Rbs). He's DEFINITELY better than Arthur Brown and as I've said, I've been a HUGE fan of Arthur since he was in high school. Watch and decide for yourself:
Arthur Brown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sEBZiTWdeU
Alec Ogletree (pay close attention to him meeting Eddie Lacy (possible first rounder) on the goalline and stopping him dead in his tracks. I'm not sure if anyone else has done that all year. Solo tackles on TJ Yeldon, that's impressive. There's just no way Arthur Brown (who pretty much lives in coverage) is better against the run than Ogletree... and Ogletree will add weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZy_y0on4u8


As for your mock. Like the Brown and Lemonier picks. I don't think CL will necessarily be as one dimensional as some may think. I think he's a guy that can improve at the next level because he looked pretty good at Auburn despite being under the worst defensive coaching possibly in the country. As you said, even if he's just a great pass rusher, I'd be happy. He gets off the line quick, that's for sure. Good eye on that one.

I'm not all that familiar with Sio Moore but will look for some tape.

Love the Bennie Logan and Michael Williams picks.

The Rhodes pick would depend for me personally how the 1st round was going... Not really a guy I've got my eye on but he can definitely play.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 11:39 AM
I'm not talking about ogletree's tackling. I'm talking about his ability to take on and shed blockers.

Watch those videos specifically for how often Ogletree meets a blocker and sheds him. Almost never.

Arthur brown is the absolute best stack and shed lb in this draft.

TheEnigma
01-23-2013, 11:42 AM
I have my own personal preference for Jamie Collins over Lemonier myself but I'd be cool with the latter as long as he has potential to offer more than pass rushes on obvious passing downs.

In regards to Ansah, it's looking more like he would be a better fit for a 3-4 defense as a DE where Okafor seems to be the better fit for the Giants because his pass rushing abilities are extremely underrated with the multiple moves he utilizes and he can shed blocks to make plays in the run game too.

Overall, a mock I wouldn't be sad to see if it turned out like this.

G-Men Surg.
01-23-2013, 11:48 AM
I'm struggling more and more with the first round. Rhodes is a good player, but this draft is deep at CB and I would argue mid round guys are potentially as good as Rhodes. Wreh-Wilson to me is as good of a prospect.

I am still not sure if ansah would ever be a top pass rusher. He never dips around the corner. Not sure he has the flexibility to do it.

I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds

So where do they go? The other DE prospects? Maybe Mingo is there.


As far as one dimensional player like Lemonier. A pass rush specialist is such a valuable commodity. Look at the year Aldon Smith had his rookie year or Bruce Irvin this year.

And Sio Moore is a much better player than herzlich or Paysinger. He could certainly play significant snaps on defense.

If there's no DE worthy of that pick or no monster DT available at 19 and taking in count your assessment then IMO go with the " safe pick " and grab a stud OL. There's gona be lots available when the Giants turn comes. Aside of your observation of a strong FA OL offseason even if they are cheap you thats only a quick fix, and more often than not you have to spend to get quality at OL a luxury we can't afford being saddled in salary cap, you can not go wrong if we go OL in 1st round. That been said Ansah's athletic ability is ridiculous, do you know he has run a sub 11 seg in the 100 mts dash ? At 6' 6 and 270 lbs ?!? That along is mind-boggling. He will better his craft and be a great DE passrusher for years to come, add JPP to the other side of the line and we could be looking up to special things in the near future.

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 11:50 AM
I'm not talking about ogletree's tackling. I'm talking about his ability to take on and shed blockers.

Watch those videos specifically for how often Ogletree meets a blocker and sheds him. Almost never.

Arthur brown is the absolute best stack and shed lb in this draft.

I laughed.

Why would you want a DE (and the only one we'd take) in the 3rd round if you think he'd only play on passing downs?

TCHOF
01-23-2013, 11:53 AM
Like the players but we need some OL

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 12:05 PM
Arthur brown is the absolute best stack and shed lb in this draft.

Seems like he should have more tackles than everyone else than (instead of the opposite). Especially more than a guy with 3 less games and is the worst against the run.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 12:08 PM
If there's no DE worthy of that pick or no monster DT available at 19 and taking in count your assessment then IMO go with the " safe pick " and grab a stud OL. There's gona be lots available when the Giants turn comes. Aside of your observation of a strong FA OL offseason even if they are cheap you thats only a quick fix, and more often than not you have to spend to get quality at OL a luxury we can't afford being saddled in salary cap, you can not go wrong if we go OL in 1st round. That been said Ansah's athletic ability is ridiculous, do you know he has run a sub 11 seg in the 100 mts dash ? At 6' 6 and 270 lbs ?!? That along is mind-boggling. He will better his craft and be a great DE passrusher for years to come, add JPP to the other side of the line and we could be looking up to special things in the near future.

I've watched a lot of video of Ansah. His speed to close is very impressive. But I have never seen him dip around the edge. He just doesn't do it. He does not explode off the ball either.

Combine those two, and you have a guy who is probably better off as a 5 tech. He's not a natural edge guy.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 12:09 PM
I laughed.

Why would you want a DE (and the only one we'd take) in the 3rd round if you think he'd only play on passing downs?

For the same reason the Seahawks and 49ers took a passing down only guy in the first.

A sub package rush end is incredibly valuable

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 12:10 PM
Seems like he should have more tackles than everyone else than (instead of the opposite). Especially more than a guy with 3 less games and is the worst against the run.

Production doesn't have a lot to do with it. Ogletree massively benefitted from the massive DTs who played in front of him and kept him clean on nearly all plays.

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 12:34 PM
Production doesn't have a lot to do with it. Ogletree massively benefitted from the massive DTs who played in front of him and kept him clean on nearly all plays.

If he only made plays up front, I'd be closer to agreeing with you. As someone that has actually watched him play A LOT, I know he was impressive for many other reason besides not having people block him.

Have you watched Arthur Brown's film? It's not exactly loaded with him shedding blocks and shutting down run games. Let's not forget that he couldn't even get on the field at Miami.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
If he only made plays up front, I'd be closer to agreeing with you. As someone that has actually watched him play A LOT, I know he was impressive for many other reason besides not having people block him.

Have you watched Arthur Brown's film? It's not exactly loaded with him shedding blocks and shutting down run games.

I've watched plenty of both. Ogletree does not use his arms and does not stack and shed. Watch how he plays with his arms at his sides all game until the tackle.

Arthur Brown there is a ton of video of him engaging and shedding blockers.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 02:09 PM
The more I think about I'm going to switch my first and third picks

I'll take Mingo in the first and Wreh Wilson in the third.

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 02:18 PM
The more I think about I'm going to switch my first and third picks

I'll take Mingo in the first and Wreh Wilson in the third.

I think Mingo has been a top 10 pick in every mock draft I have seen.

slipknottin
01-23-2013, 02:34 PM
I think Mingo has been a top 10 pick in every mock draft I have seen.

I think it's very possible he falls. Because he is undersized and not very productive.

BlueSabbath
01-23-2013, 02:36 PM
I think it's very possible he falls. Because he is undersized and not very productive.

I tend to agree.

Kruunch
01-23-2013, 03:20 PM
I'm struggling more and more with the first round. Rhodes is a good player, but this draft is deep at CB and I would argue mid round guys are potentially as good as Rhodes. Wreh-Wilson to me is as good of a prospect.

I am still not sure if ansah would ever be a top pass rusher. He never dips around the corner. Not sure he has the flexibility to do it.

I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds

So where do they go? The other DE prospects? Maybe Mingo is there.


As far as one dimensional player like Lemonier. A pass rush specialist is such a valuable commodity. Look at the year Aldon Smith had his rookie year or Bruce Irvin this year.

And Sio Moore is a much better player than herzlich or Paysinger. He could certainly play significant snaps on defense.

The first round likes that I have are (in order): Okafor, Ansah, Rhodes, Lane Johnson, Ogletree

Ansah (and Okafor) I see more as strong side DEs (replacing Tuck). Setting the edge and getting pursuit sacks. I think they're both great pass rushing prospects, but I agree that neither would probably make GREAT pass rushers. But I don't need them to be the next Strahan ... just the next Tuck.

I think of those, one would be available, and I'd be happy with any of those in the first. They all address a real need in a big way for us. I agree about your assessment of Rhodes vs. later CBs in the draft. As for Ogletree, while I agree with you, I think he's the multidimensional type of LB we really need and our dline has to do more with respect to being stout against the run. That and the run stuffers that will be around in the first round just don't impress me (Minter and Teo). But I can understand the misgivings here.

Lemonier: I don't see him being as good as Osi (or Smith or Irvin). The only way I say grab a situational player is if he blows my hair back at what he does (and Lemonier, while good, doesn't do it for me).

Moore: Herzlich has yet to prove that he can play at this level (or get up to the level he played at BC for that matter) so that's a no-brainer. Paysinger I'll disagree with ... I thought he's been coming along really nicely. While Moore might supplant him, I don't think you can say that with a given (at least I didn't bet that impression from him on the little tape I've watched).

Kruunch
01-23-2013, 03:23 PM
I think it's very possible he falls. Because he is undersized and not very productive.

I think it's more likely he'll get scooped up as a 3-4 OLB before us.

Jahh
01-23-2013, 03:26 PM
I think it's more likely he'll get scooped up as a 3-4 OLB before us.

Is he a legit DE prospect?

Kruunch
01-23-2013, 03:31 PM
Is he a legit DE prospect?

Mingo? He's being touted as that but he doesn't have the size and an extra 30 pounds might slow him down too much. Then again, pass rushing DEs are getting smaller all the time. He's good really solid technique though and he's an athletic marvel.

Because of his range though, I'd see him as more valuable as a 3-4 OLB who can flare out on zone dog blitzes.

TCHOF
01-23-2013, 04:18 PM
I think it's very possible he falls. Because he is undersized and not very productive.

Undersized and unproductive? Let's grab this guy!

rainierjef
01-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I'm struggling more and more with the first round. Rhodes is a good player, but this draft is deep at CB and I would argue mid round guys are potentially as good as Rhodes. Wreh-Wilson to me is as good of a prospect.

I am still not sure if ansah would ever be a top pass rusher. He never dips around the corner. Not sure he has the flexibility to do it.

I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds

So where do they go? The other DE prospects? Maybe Mingo is there.


As far as one dimensional player like Lemonier. A pass rush specialist is such a valuable commodity. Look at the year Aldon Smith had his rookie year or Bruce Irvin this year.

And Sio Moore is a much better player than herzlich or Paysinger. He could certainly play significant snaps on defense.

I firmly believe if Mingo / Rhodes / Ansah / ogletree is there. Mingo is the player with the best upside/ polish. I say this cause Anash is player with the most Upside but he is probably going to be a 2nd season performer much like JPP was and I hope he doesn't hit the wall like JPP did when realizing "hey they are game planing to neturalize me." Rhodes at 19 is nice but like you said we can get better prospects in the 2nd, In my mock I took him where he would be the best value. "I don't see ogletree as a top player because he's the worst LB against the run in the first couple rounds." I completely agree with this, Nico to me is a better overall prospect not talent but where we can get him a better value I think.

rainierjef
01-23-2013, 04:23 PM
Mingo? He's being touted as that but he doesn't have the size and an extra 30 pounds might slow him down too much. Then again, pass rushing DEs are getting smaller all the time. He's good really solid technique though and he's an athletic marvel.

Because of his range though, I'd see him as more valuable as a 3-4 OLB who can flare out on zone dog blitzes.
he doesn't need 30 all he needs is 20 imho. and he uses his hands extremely well, and has an array of moves to get to the QB. like you said he is extremely atheletic so i don't think he would have an issue dissengaging and getting to the running back.

Kruunch
01-24-2013, 07:59 AM
he doesn't need 30 all he needs is 20 imho. and he uses his hands extremely well, and has an array of moves to get to the QB. like you said he is extremely atheletic so i don't think he would have an issue dissengaging and getting to the running back.


Yeah I could see that. My only concern with tweeners is more of them turn out to be busts or 3-4 OLBs than the Jevon Kearse's of the world (Mingo kind of reminds me of a Jevon Kearse type prospect).

G-Men Surg.
01-25-2013, 02:07 AM
I've watched a lot of video of Ansah. His speed to close is very impressive. But I have never seen him dip around the edge. He just doesn't do it. He does not explode off the ball either.

Combine those two, and you have a guy who is probably better off as a 5 tech. He's not a natural edge guy.
I do understand your point but I truly believe he still learning the game, to say not a natural edge rusher is accepting he is a finished product and here is where I think he could mature into a complete DE, a freakish one for that matter. Still I'm very impress in his closing speed, in how fast he reads and reacts in the running game and how ridiculous the opps. looks when he runs down RBs and TE in the backfield or in the screen game. The only occasions I saw him out of sync it was against teams running the pistol Offense or the option. Other than that solid all around.

slipknottin
01-25-2013, 01:21 PM
I do understand your point but I truly believe he still learning the game, to say not a natural edge rusher is accepting he is a finished product and here is where I think he could mature into a complete DE, a freakish one for that matter. Still I'm very impress in his closing speed, in how fast he reads and reacts in the running game and how ridiculous the opps. looks when he runs down RBs and TE in the backfield or in the screen game. The only occasions I saw him out of sync it was against teams running the pistol Offense or the option. Other than that solid all around.

I don't think he can "learn" the flexibility to dip around the edge. That's a natural gift. He could learn to play with better leverage and use his hands better. But none of that will ever make him a premiere edge guy, IMO. There's a chance he could be an 8 or so sack a year guy. But that may be about it

Kruunch
01-25-2013, 03:32 PM
I don't think he can "learn" the flexibility to dip around the edge. That's a natural gift. He could learn to play with better leverage and use his hands better. But none of that will ever make him a premiere edge guy, IMO. There's a chance he could be an 8 or so sack a year guy. But that may be about it

Not sure I agree with that. A lot of popular edge rushers have stiff hips. Bending at the waist at an extreme angle is just one method of disengaging the lineman and closing the gap quickly (ala Dumerville). Osi and Strahan both have/had very stiff hips and they're known as premier edge rushers.

But to your point, I see Ansah playing the strong side and setting the edge rather than beating it.

slipknottin
01-25-2013, 04:13 PM
Not sure I agree with that. A lot of popular edge rushers have stiff hips. Bending at the waist at an extreme angle is just one method of disengaging the lineman and closing the gap quickly (ala Dumerville). Osi and Strahan both have/had very stiff hips and they're known as premier edge rushers.

But to your point, I see Ansah playing the strong side and setting the edge rather than beating it.

Both Strahan and Osi won off the edge, with a combo of burst (better than Ansah), flexibility (better than Ansah), and far better hand usage. And not just hip flexibility, Osi and Strahan had great ankle flexibility too, they could loop around and maintain speed and balance, something Ansah has never shown.

Ansah's edge rushing video consists of a bull rush into the OL every time. I have never seen in all his film a single time where he won to the outside with any combination of burst/flexibility/or hand usage.

He doesnt even attempt to take the edge, he fights to the inside almost every play.

Yes hes strong and he has amazing chase speed, you dont get that at the snap. The OL just inside sets and prepares for the bull rush because they have no fear at all of him going outside.

I just think its a huge projection to take him as an edge rusher. Now if you put him inside at 5t, give him 1 gap to hit, or tell him to jam the OL back into the QB, and you focus on his hand usage, he could be a really good player.

G-Men Surg.
01-26-2013, 10:30 PM
I don't think he can "learn" the flexibility to dip around the edge. That's a natural gift. He could learn to play with better leverage and use his hands better. But none of that will ever make him a premiere edge guy, IMO. There's a chance he could be an 8 or so sack a year guy. But that may be about it

Sorr bro but I don't " buy " your theory on that. Even JPP depends in fast moves and power to get around or through linemen, look at his film in college and this past 3 years with Big Blue, he doesn't depend on " that natural gift " like you mention like Osi, Von Miller and others. JJP and Ezekiel are just a diferent breed of players. That same skill to run down runners and TE is displayed when he attacks the passer. If you are not sold on him I respect that but don't kid your self he is worthy of the 19th pick. That been said it looks more and more ( senior bowl and wait for the numbers he will put up in the combine ) like he will be long gone before Big Blue turn comes up in the 1 st.

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-27-2013, 01:42 AM
round 1 - CB - Xavier Rhodes
Big physical CB, fits if the giants want to run more tampa 2.

round 2 - ILB - Arthur Brown
Think he can play inside in a 4-3. Best stack/shed LB in the draft

round 3 - DE - Corey Lemonier
Undersized, but could be a great sub package rusher. But him at DE on passing downs and move Tuck/Kiwi inside.

round 4 - OLB - Sio Moore
Going to be at a minimum a very good ST player, but I think eventually he could play some SAM, could offer some ability as a blitzer as well.

round 5 - DT - Bennie Logan
Think he is the next Barry Cofield

round 6 - TE Michael Williams
Tremendous blocker, potentially could add some weight and move to OT. Could be a great replacement for Pascoe at least

round 7 - K Dustin Hopkins
If Tynes is not brought back need to bring in some kickers to compete for the job.

what no ziggy ansah? like everyone else seems to be sure of? I love this kid Rhodes,,,like you said, big and physical..let me ask you this cause you seem to be the shed/block enforcer,,,is this something that other players can fix through strengthening and technique? and although 38,,I would love to see the giants take a look at phil dawson,,even if it's only a few years, long enough to groom another.