PDA

View Full Version : 168 REC, 2,628 yards, 15.6 YPC, 19 TD



NYG4lifeNYK
01-23-2013, 07:50 PM
Whose numbers are those you ask?

Victor Cruz in two years.


Comparison?



Nicks 2 Years:

126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

Dez 2 years:

110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



First Three Years:


Hakeem Nicks:

202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

----------------------------------------------------------

Dez Bryant:

200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Marshall:

226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Johnson:

193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Andre Johnson:

208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Larry Fitzgerald:

230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Demaryius Thomas:

148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Michael Irvin:

78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Cris Carter:

111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Rice:

200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Terrell Owens:

162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Randy Moss:

226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


----------------------------------------------------------



Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding

RoanokeFan
01-23-2013, 07:55 PM
Whose numbers are those you ask?

Victor Cruz in two years.


Comparison?



Nicks 2 Years:

126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

Dez 2 years:

110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



First Three Years:


Hakeem Nicks:

202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD


Dez Bryant:

200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs


Brandon Marshall:

226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs


Calvin Johnson:

193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs


Andre Johnson:

208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs


Larry Fitzgerald:

230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs


Demaryius Thomas:

148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

----------------

Michael Irvin:

78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs


Cris Carter:

111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs


Jerry Rice:

200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs


Terrell Owens:

162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs


Randy Moss:

226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs




Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.

Dump Cruz, he drops too many passes

GTGiantsFan
01-23-2013, 08:05 PM
Think I saw an arguement on here that showed Cruz had 640 yards in 5 games this year? He's a good and can be a very good if not elite wide receiver but no football God! Comparing him to Irvin, Rice, Moss, Carter, both Johnsons and Marshall is a stretch I think right now, he had one great elite year and one good year so far. Hopefully he can continue to get better and be mentioned with the likes of the people you listed. But right now let's just worry about getting Nicks healthy and have them both get 80 rec 1500 12 td years! :) Cruz isn't going anywhere for at least another year anyway so Eli should have a field day like he did in 2011 with both of his go to guys healthy and ready to go.

elitocruz
01-23-2013, 08:11 PM
I'm with you on the Cruz part of the equation. No brainer, they must resign that kid. I'm scared of Nicks on a huge deal only because he misses at least 3 games every year, and this year he was healthy for about 2 games. (tampa and green bay). his productivity can't be questioned. his ability to stay on the field is another issue. I'd play that out and see how 2013 goes for Hakeem. then can always franchise him if need be.

RoanokeFan
01-23-2013, 08:14 PM
Think I saw an arguement on here that showed Cruz had 640 yards in 5 games this year? He's a good and can be a very good if not elite wide receiver but no football God! Comparing him to Irvin, Rice, Moss, Carter, both Johnsons and Marshall is a stretch I think right now, he had one great elite year and one good year so far. Hopefully he can continue to get better and be mentioned with the likes of the people you listed. But right now let's just worry about getting Nicks healthy and have them both get 80 rec 1500 12 td years! :) Cruz isn't going anywhere for at least another year anyway so Eli should have a field day like he did in 2011 with both of his go to guys healthy and ready to go.

The highlighted except is likely, but not a guarantee. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a team well under the CAP with need of a proven veteran receiver would cough up a first round pick IF Cruz is tendered.

GTGiantsFan
01-23-2013, 08:15 PM
The highlighted except is likely, but not a guarantee. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a team well under the CAP with need of a proven veteran receiver would cough up a first round pick IF Cruz is tendered.

That's a risk most teams take and it turns out well for them. Usuallys teams well under the cap have the higher picks also.

Carter.525
01-23-2013, 08:20 PM
Lock him up Jerry..

RoanokeFan
01-23-2013, 08:27 PM
That's a risk most teams take and it turns out well for them. Usuallys teams well under the cap have the higher picks also.

There are three or four teams with tens of millions in CAP space. The Patriots are close to $20M over and Welker is a FA. Not that BB would ever raid the Giants.

Morehead State
01-23-2013, 08:34 PM
Cruz has been a great Giant. An all time great first 2 years.

RoanokeFan
01-23-2013, 08:35 PM
Cruz has been a great Giant. An all time great first 2 years.

He's all that

Drystt
01-23-2013, 08:40 PM
Whose numbers are those you ask?

Victor Cruz in two years.


Comparison?



Nicks 2 Years:

126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

Dez 2 years:

110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



First Three Years:


Hakeem Nicks:

202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

----------------------------------------------------------

Dez Bryant:

200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Marshall:

226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Johnson:

193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Andre Johnson:

208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Larry Fitzgerald:

230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Demaryius Thomas:

148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Michael Irvin:

78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Cris Carter:

111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Rice:

200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Terrell Owens:

162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Randy Moss:

226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


----------------------------------------------------------



Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding


Wow, well done.

RoanokeFan
01-23-2013, 08:45 PM
Think I saw an arguement on here that showed Cruz had 640 yards in 5 games this year? He's a good and can be a very good if not elite wide receiver but no football God! Comparing him to Irvin, Rice, Moss, Carter, both Johnsons and Marshall is a stretch I think right now, he had one great elite year and one good year so far. Hopefully he can continue to get better and be mentioned with the likes of the people you listed. But right now let's just worry about getting Nicks healthy and have them both get 80 rec 1500 12 td years! :) Cruz isn't going anywhere for at least another year anyway so Eli should have a field day like he did in 2011 with both of his go to guys healthy and ready to go.

I think Reese would look at this OP and, without regard to the "names" in the 3 year category, simply acknowledge Cruz is a special talent having already exceeded what some notable receivers took three years to accomplish and is nipping at the heels of those who are ahead of Cruz after three years. It won't be a question of do we want him, it will be a question of can we keep him.

giantsfan420
01-23-2013, 08:46 PM
woah...thats pretty damn impressive for both cruz and nicks...these guys have a shot at going down as the greatest wr tandem in nfl history based on those numbers thus far

gmen0820
01-23-2013, 09:16 PM
Cruz is the man. Can't wait to see this offense once Randle carves out his niche, and Nicks and Cruz are at full strength.

BigBlue1971
01-23-2013, 09:24 PM
thats why JR must make a real effort to keep both Nicks and Cruz!

healthy they are a lethal combination for opponents!

Buddy333
01-23-2013, 09:38 PM
Randy Moss was so good.

gmen0820
01-23-2013, 09:46 PM
Randy Moss was so good.Incredible

GTGiantsFan
01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
I think Reese would look at this OP and, without regard to the "names" in the 3 year category, simply acknowledge Cruz is a special talent having already exceeded what some notable receivers took three years to accomplish and is nipping at the heels of those who are ahead of Cruz after three years. It won't be a question of do we want him, it will be a question of can we keep him.

I was simply saying it's premature to list Cruz with the likes of Moss, Rice, etc.

jomo
01-23-2013, 10:39 PM
Randy Moss was so good.Odd but good lol.

TheBookOfEli
01-23-2013, 10:51 PM
We need to retain Cruz asap. He's a playmaker and a very good WR. Amazing we got him as a UDFA.

GMEN023
01-23-2013, 10:55 PM
those are some pretty cool numbers and stats and puts it in perspective because I didn't realize how impressive they were. However it's unfair to compare his numbers to others especially guys who started there careers years before his. The NFL has changed so much and passing is so much easier so recieving stats will be slightly inflated. I'm not bashing Cruz cuz I love him and hope we keep him long term and I'm sure we will but it's hard to compare some of those numbers. If anything it will make resigning him harder lol

gumby74
01-24-2013, 08:40 AM
Unless we draft ridiculously well or find some bargains, I highly doubt we re-sign both Cruz and Nicks. We have other pressing needs. I can't think of a team that has 2 top tier payed WRs. It's usually they have one guy with a big contract, and the second on his rookie/original contract. And when it's time to pay the second guy, they let the top paid WR go.

ryan12
01-24-2013, 08:43 AM
cruz is a top priorty for us we behind will beatty

GameTime
01-24-2013, 09:08 AM
he gets aligator arms though....right.....:)

TuckandRolle
01-24-2013, 09:16 AM
Nicks on the field helps his numbers, I hope you know that. He disappeared at the end of the season when Nicks wasn't himself because teams focused on him.

Flip Empty
01-24-2013, 09:23 AM
Nicks on the field helps his numbers, I hope you know that. He disappeared at the end of the season when Nicks wasn't himself because teams focused on him.
201 yards and 4 TDs over the three games Nicks missed?

Ruttiger711
01-24-2013, 10:16 AM
Just for arguments sake (because I also firmly believe Cruz needs to remain a Giant)

Cruz had nearly a 500 yard drop (1 more td) than the year prior. Other than the last minute td pass against the skins, he didnt have the home run plays like the year prior against Seattle, Philly and the Jets for example. Most of those receivers listed increased their production as time went on, not decreased.

In September/early October Cruz was well on his way to hit 1500 yds again but definitely tailed off in the last half of the season. So whats the norm? Is he an 1,100 yd/season guy or a 1,500 yd season guy?

I think its reasonable to expect 1200 yds/season out of him, but I could also see him getting closer to that 1500 yd number i only by fixing his sometimes concentration issues.

Im just wondering with his contract in the works, how far apart Cruz and the Giants actually are. I'd love to see him locked up for 7yrs/6-7 mil a year, but if the Cruz camp think he's the 1500 yd/season guy I'm afraid that the Giants might only get to sign him for a couple of years and then Cruz really looks for the "elite" contract before he hits 30.

Just spitballin.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Just for arguments sake (because I also firmly believe Cruz needs to remain a Giant)

Cruz had nearly a 500 yard drop (1 more td) than the year prior. Other than the last minute td pass against the skins, he didnt have the home run plays like the year prior against Seattle, Philly and the Jets for example. Most of those receivers listed increased their production as time went on, not decreased.

In September/early October Cruz was well on his way to hit 1500 yds again but definitely tailed off in the last half of the season. So whats the norm? Is he an 1,100 yd/season guy or a 1,500 yd season guy?

I think its reasonable to expect 1200 yds/season out of him, but I could also see him getting closer to that 1500 yd number i only by fixing his sometimes concentration issues.

Im just wondering with his contract in the works, how far apart Cruz and the Giants actually are. I'd love to see him locked up for 7yrs/6-7 mil a year, but if the Cruz camp think he's the 1500 yd/season guy I'm afraid that the Giants might only get to sign him for a couple of years and then Cruz really looks for the "elite" contract before he hits 30.

Just spitballin.i dont look at it from a "how much he dropped off" perspective. I knew he wasn't going to match the 2011 yr statistically when the Nicks issue became clear. You can't gloss over how, while he did not produce the same numbers, he did still have an extremely productive year while often being completely focused on by defenses bc the lack of a threat Nicks became hobbled...if you really think about it, this past year is almost more impressive than 2011 in that, 2011 he had nicks taking massive amounts of attention off cruz. cruz had no such luxury this year, and still produced an exceptional year...

Ntegrase96
01-24-2013, 10:30 AM
Is there a particular reason that you've used the numbers rookie and sophomore numbers for Nicks and Bryant? Just curious.

I realize that Cruz was injured for the majority of the season and didn't truly have a rookie season, but then again, he didn't have a 'rookie season'. A little more time to grow and familiarize with the playbook before being actually thrown out there, didn't play with the injuries that Nicks and Bryant did, and so on and so forth.

He would still lead in most categories

Cruz: 168 Rec 2,628 YDS 274 Targets 19 TDs
Nicks: 155 Rec 2,244 YDS 261 Targets 18 TDs
Dez: 155 Rec 2,310 YDS 241 Targets 21 TDs

Averages--
Cruz: 82 yds/gm 5.3 rec/gm 8.5 targets/game 15.6 yds/catch 9.59 yards/target .59 TDs/gm
Nicks: 80 yds/gm 5.5 rec/gm 9.3 targets/game 14.5 yds/catch 8.59 yards/target .64 TDs/gm
Dez: 74 yds/gm 5.0 rec/gm 7.7 targets/game 14.9 yds/catch 9.58 yards/target .67 TDs/gm

*edit: Numbers pulled from each players 2nd and 3rd years in the league.

RoanokeFan
01-24-2013, 10:31 AM
Just for arguments sake (because I also firmly believe Cruz needs to remain a Giant)

Cruz had nearly a 500 yard drop (1 more td) than the year prior. Other than the last minute td pass against the skins, he didnt have the home run plays like the year prior against Seattle, Philly and the Jets for example. Most of those receivers listed increased their production as time went on, not decreased.

In September/early October Cruz was well on his way to hit 1500 yds again but definitely tailed off in the last half of the season. So whats the norm? Is he an 1,100 yd/season guy or a 1,500 yd season guy?

I think its reasonable to expect 1200 yds/season out of him, but I could also see him getting closer to that 1500 yd number i only by fixing his sometimes concentration issues.

Im just wondering with his contract in the works, how far apart Cruz and the Giants actually are. I'd love to see him locked up for 7yrs/6-7 mil a year, but if the Cruz camp think he's the 1500 yd/season guy I'm afraid that the Giants might only get to sign him for a couple of years and then Cruz really looks for the "elite" contract before he hits 30.

Just spitballin.

Cruz is better with a healthy Nicks on the field and Nicks is better with Cruz on the field.

Ntegrase96
01-24-2013, 10:34 AM
i dont look at it from a "how much he dropped off" perspective. I knew he wasn't going to match the 2011 yr statistically when the Nicks issue became clear. You can't gloss over how, while he did not produce the same numbers, he did still have an extremely productive year while often being completely focused on by defenses bc the lack of a threat Nicks became hobbled...if you really think about it, this past year is almost more impressive than 2011 in that, 2011 he had nicks taking massive amounts of attention off cruz. cruz had no such luxury this year, and still produced an exceptional year...

I don't know if I agree with this season being more impressive than last, but it at least proved that Cruz could be a number 1. However, I must say that I think Cruz would benefit more from Nicks than Nicks from Cruz.

RoanokeFan
01-24-2013, 10:35 AM
I was simply saying it's premature to list Cruz with the likes of Moss, Rice, etc.

I know you were.

Ntegrase96
01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Cruz is better with a healthy Nicks on the field and Nicks is better with Cruz on the field.

Agree on this also... tell me, do you think the production was hurt by the loss of Manningham?

Ruttiger711
01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
i dont look at it from a "how much he dropped off" perspective. I knew he wasn't going to match the 2011 yr statistically when the Nicks issue became clear. You can't gloss over how, while he did not produce the same numbers, he did still have an extremely productive year while often being completely focused on by defenses bc the lack of a threat Nicks became hobbled...if you really think about it, this past year is almost more impressive than 2011 in that, 2011 he had nicks taking massive amounts of attention off cruz. cruz had no such luxury this year, and still produced an exceptional year...

He most definitley had a productive 2nd year - but the reason it appears as a dropoff is because of how spectactular and impressive 2010 was.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 10:39 AM
I don't know if I agree with this season being more impressive than last, but it at least proved that Cruz could be a number 1. However, I must say that I think Cruz would benefit more from Nicks than Nicks from Cruz.yeah ur right i worded that poorly. i should have said, "in some ways, this season was almost more impressive than last."

RoanokeFan
01-24-2013, 10:48 AM
Agree on this also... tell me, do you think the production was hurt by the loss of Manningham?

Personally, no, but I am in the minority on that. Hixon served us well after Mario went to greener pastures.
















2012

GP

GS

YDS

YPC

LNG

TD

FUMB




MANNINGHAM

12

10

449

10.7

40

1

2




HIXON

13

3

567

14.5

41

2

0

dezzzR
01-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Personally, no, but I am in the minority on that. Hixon served us well after Mario went to greener pastures.

















2012
GP
GS
YDS
YPC
LNG
TD
FUMB



MANNINGHAM
12
10
449
10.7
40
1
2



HIXON
13
3
567
14.5
41
2
0



Teams had to account for Manningham because of his speed and explosiveness. Giants definitely missed him this year.

Morehead State
01-24-2013, 11:33 AM
Personally, no, but I am in the minority on that. Hixon served us well after Mario went to greener pastures.

















2012
GP
GS
YDS
YPC
LNG
TD
FUMB



MANNINGHAM
12
10
449
10.7
40
1
2



HIXON
13
3
567
14.5
41
2
0




His injury aside...MM clearly made a huge mistake going to SF. Its a run first, run second offense. Its where WR's go to die.

gmen46
01-24-2013, 03:01 PM
His injury aside...MM clearly made a huge mistake going to SF. Its a run first, run second offense. Its where WR's go to die.

You're correct, although Mario did have the misfortune to go to Niners the year Crabtree--4 years late--finally chose to play like a 1st rd pick. Even at that, however, he produced a little less than the undrafted Cruz this year (Cruz's so-called "drop off" season, ha ha ha).

gmen46
01-24-2013, 03:02 PM
i dont look at it from a "how much he dropped off" perspective. I knew he wasn't going to match the 2011 yr statistically when the Nicks issue became clear. You can't gloss over how, while he did not produce the same numbers, he did still have an extremely productive year while often being completely focused on by defenses bc the lack of a threat Nicks became hobbled...if you really think about it, this past year is almost more impressive than 2011 in that, 2011 he had nicks taking massive amounts of attention off cruz. cruz had no such luxury this year, and still produced an exceptional year...

Exactly so.

Morehead State
01-24-2013, 03:11 PM
Exactly so.
To me, Cruz's 2012 season was nothing less than a validation of his 2011 season.
He proved that he wasn't a one season wonder.

RoanokeFan
01-24-2013, 03:50 PM
To me, Cruz's 2012 season was nothing less than a validation of his 2011 season.
He proved that he wasn't a one season wonder.

+1

gumby74
01-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Whose numbers are those you ask?

Victor Cruz in two years.


Comparison?



Nicks 2 Years:

126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

Dez 2 years:

110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



First Three Years:


Hakeem Nicks:

202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

----------------------------------------------------------

Dez Bryant:

200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Marshall:

226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Johnson:

193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Andre Johnson:

208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Larry Fitzgerald:

230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Demaryius Thomas:

148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Michael Irvin:

78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Cris Carter:

111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Rice:

200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Terrell Owens:

162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Randy Moss:

226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


----------------------------------------------------------



Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding

I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.

There's a big difference between Cruz and most of the WRs listed. The (most) ones listed are big, strong, physical WRs that can make the tough catch in traffic. They are far less reliant on "getting separation" than Cruz is. Honestly, I don't think Cruz is that kind of WR that warrants top dollar. His skillset is more easily replaced than most of the WRs listed.

Don't get me wrong. I love him to death. But for top dollar (assuming he asks that much), I'd take many other WRs in the league over him. Numbers don't lie. He definitely no one year wonder. But he lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract.

gmen46
01-24-2013, 08:14 PM
I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.

There's a big difference between Cruz and most of the WRs listed. The (most) ones listed are big, strong, physical WRs that can make the tough catch in traffic. They are far less reliant on "getting separation" than Cruz is. Honestly, I don't think Cruz is that kind of WR that warrants top dollar. His skillset is more easily replaced than most of the WRs listed.

Don't get me wrong. I love him to death. But for top dollar (assuming he asks that much), I'd take many other WRs in the league over him. Numbers don't lie. He definitely no one year wonder. But he lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract.

"Lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract" is a bit silly.

Can he catch the ball? Can he run? Can he catch and run? Can he score? Is he a reliable target? These are aspects that matter, and Cruz conforms to them in a big way.

For example, I'm not saying he's yet at the level of Roddy White--although Cruz's 2 year numbers are actually a little better than White's, the past 2 years--but Cruz is the same size as White. Is White not worth "the big contract"?

Flip Empty
01-24-2013, 08:20 PM
I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.
Cruz isn't in his 30s, nor does he keep killing drives in the post-season.

RoanokeFan
01-24-2013, 08:50 PM
I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.

There's a big difference between Cruz and most of the WRs listed. The (most) ones listed are big, strong, physical WRs that can make the tough catch in traffic. They are far less reliant on "getting separation" than Cruz is. Honestly, I don't think Cruz is that kind of WR that warrants top dollar. His skillset is more easily replaced than most of the WRs listed.

Don't get me wrong. I love him to death. But for top dollar (assuming he asks that much), I'd take many other WRs in the league over him. Numbers don't lie. He definitely no one year wonder. But he lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract.


His numbers will determine his price tag. In two years he has been very impressive, despite his drops. I don't know what physicality has to do with his numbers.

Imgrate
01-24-2013, 08:55 PM
He was on ir his first year. He Was older, and thus closer to his prime than virtually all of those guys during the two years

dakotajoe
01-24-2013, 09:03 PM
He was on ir his first year. He Was older, and thus closer to his prime than virtually all of those guys during the two years

I rather have a 21 year old receiver than a 25 year old receiver. I suppose each individual ages differently but I know I personally started running into problems at the age of 24-25 with flexibility issues and back pain. I'm 30 and a shell of my former self athletically.

Imgrate
01-24-2013, 09:06 PM
I rather have a 21 year old receiver than a 25 year old receiver. I suppose each individual ages differently but I know I personally started running into problems at the age of 24-25 with flexibility issues and back pain. I'm 30 and a shell of my former self athletically. Generally speaking, an NFL player is better at age 25 as opposed to him being 21...

dakotajoe
01-24-2013, 09:13 PM
Generally speaking, an NFL player is better at age 25 as opposed to him being 21...

Agreed, but is the improvement age related or rather because the WR develops chemistry with the QB over time and knows the playbook better and better?

I don't think Cruz's stats first two years are anything to scoff at. What probably helped him out the most was he was unheralded coming out of college and I'm sure teams didn't forge a strong game plan based on his skills.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 09:17 PM
I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.

There's a big difference between Cruz and most of the WRs listed. The (most) ones listed are big, strong, physical WRs that can make the tough catch in traffic. They are far less reliant on "getting separation" than Cruz is. Honestly, I don't think Cruz is that kind of WR that warrants top dollar. His skillset is more easily replaced than most of the WRs listed.

Don't get me wrong. I love him to death. But for top dollar (assuming he asks that much), I'd take many other WRs in the league over him. Numbers don't lie. He definitely no one year wonder. But he lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract.theres a big difference with cruz and welker tho. Cruz is a legitimate downfield threat who can make contested jump ball catches...maybe welker can do those things too but for whatever reason is never used that way.
Welker is pretty much purely a slot wr. cruz proved hes dangerous on the perimeter as well as slot...

Imgrate
01-24-2013, 09:18 PM
Agreed, but is the improvement age related or rather because the WR develops chemistry with the QB over time and knows the playbook better and better?I don't think Cruz's stats first two years are anything to scoff at. What probably helped him out the most was he was unheralded coming out of college and I'm sure teams didn't forge a strong game plan based on his skills. Exactly. Not only is he older and more developed physically, he also had an extra year learning the playbook. The stats being compared are cruz's 2nd and 3rd year in the league to everyone else's 1st and 2nd years. Obviously what he has done is impressive, but it is not a fair comparison .

gumby74
01-24-2013, 09:54 PM
"Lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract" is a bit silly.

Can he catch the ball? Can he run? Can he catch and run? Can he score? Is he a reliable target? These are aspects that matter, and Cruz conforms to them in a big way.

For example, I'm not saying he's yet at the level of Roddy White--although Cruz's 2 year numbers are actually a little better than White's, the past 2 years--but Cruz is the same size as White. Is White not worth "the big contract"?

To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.

Marvelousmik
01-24-2013, 10:01 PM
Whose numbers are those you ask?

Victor Cruz in two years.


Comparison?



Nicks 2 Years:

126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

Dez 2 years:

110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



First Three Years:


Hakeem Nicks:

202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

----------------------------------------------------------

Dez Bryant:

200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Marshall:

226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Johnson:

193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Andre Johnson:

208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Larry Fitzgerald:

230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Demaryius Thomas:

148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Michael Irvin:

78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Cris Carter:

111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Rice:

200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Terrell Owens:

162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

----------------------------------------------------------

Randy Moss:

226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


----------------------------------------------------------



Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding


I see what you're trying to say, but this way of looking at it is flawed. If you want to compare who is the best right now, you have to compare nick's first 3 years with the last 3 years of all of those current players. by comparing nicks first 3 years to Brandon Marshall first 3 years you are comparing how nicks is now to how Marshall started out 6 years ago. That doesn't tell you who is better right "now". it just tells you who had the better start.


Here is an example of this same logic used to say cam newton is a top 5 QB right "now"

first 2 years

cam - 7920 yards - 40 touchdowns 29 ints


eli - 4805 yards 30 touchdowns - 26 ints


brees - 5392 yards 28 touchdowns - 31 ints


rodgers- 8472 yards 58 touchdowns - 20 ints


peyton - 7874 yards 52 touchdowns - 43 ints


tom brady- 6608 yards 46 touchdowns - 26 ints

CAM'S first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding

Rodgers doesn't really count since he waited on the bench for about 3 years. The only person that played better than cam in their first 2 years is Brady. That doesn't mean cam right now is a top 5 qb.


Brandon Marshall
Calvin Johnson
Andre Johnson
Larry fritz
AJ green


are all naturally better than nicks when healthy. And i used the word naturally because those guys can play behind any QB and still be productive. In my opinion there are a few others who are better but they are too underrated so I'll leave them out for now

Flip Empty
01-24-2013, 10:06 PM
The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSiiZFm_vt8&hd=1

gumby74
01-24-2013, 10:11 PM
His numbers will determine his price tag. In two years he has been very impressive, despite his drops. I don't know what physicality has to do with his numbers.

Cruz deserves a big pay day. That's for certain. I just don't know if he's worth top dollar. For 6-7 million I'd definitely do it. Any more then that, I'd be luke warm.

But I think physicality (or some other extremely hard to find attribute) does have to do with how much people get paid. If you look at the highest paid WRs at the time of the contracts, most of them fit the mold of "big, fast, physical" not "quick and shifty". I bring up Wes Welker. From a production point of view, he deserves top dollar too. He's being playing at a high level for a long time now. But I'll be surprised if he gets that. However, i wouldn't be surprised if say Dez Bryant has one break out year, and he ends up with a top dollar contract.

I'm just guessing and this may be just me, but if I were in the front office, I'd think "What is the type of WR i want to get the biggest bang for my buck for". Do I want a guy that needs separation (already there)? Or a guy that can create his own separation?

gumby74
01-24-2013, 10:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSiiZFm_vt8&hd=1

I'm not saying he can't do it at all. He's obviously shown he can on occasion as evidenced in the youtube clip and him fighting through 2-3 eagles for the touchdown. But it's not something he can do all the time. He's just not that kind of WR.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 10:17 PM
To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.cruz has that physicality tho, its just kind of deceptive. he knows how to get dbs on their heels and then he either shakes them or gets on top of them and stems the route...he also makes plenty of catches in traffic despite this latest murmuring of him having a big problem with drops...dont get me wrong hes not nicks physical but cruz def does have that element to his game.

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 10:27 PM
I agree with Gumby, I don't think Cruz has the physical tools to be a top 5 WR in the NFL, you look at the greats like Moss, Fitzgerald, Rice, they were all tough physical BIG wr's. Even the top WR's now, Marshall, Johnson, Johnson, White, Green, Nicks all tough big psychical receivers. While Cruz is an excellent slot receiver that benefits from having a top 5 and probably most physical receiver in the NFL when healthy on his team. He showed that he can't be an elite top 5 receiver alone, his physical set shows he can't "do it all". He is a niche receiver who is the best at what he does, and in a patriots like system can flourish and he post great numbers when there's somebody else to take all the attention off him and he can slip and slide like he did in year 1. He is not a do it all receiver like the elites in the NFL right now though.

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 10:28 PM
Some guys he breaks out and does very good, the 640 yards in 5 games shows that, but he can not do it consistently.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 10:30 PM
I agree with Gumby, I don't think Cruz has the physical tools to be a top 5 WR in the NFL, you look at the greats like Moss, Fitzgerald, Rice, they were all tough physical BIG wr's. Even the top WR's now, Marshall, Johnson, Johnson, White, Green, Nicks all tough big psychical receivers. While Cruz is an excellent slot receiver that benefits from having a top 5 and probably most physical receiver in the NFL when healthy on his team. He showed that he can't be an elite top 5 receiver alone, his physical set shows he can't "do it all". He is a niche receiver who is the best at what he does, and in a patriots like system can flourish and he post great numbers when there's somebody else to take all the attention off him and he can slip and slide like he did in year 1. He is not a do it all receiver like the elites in the NFL right now though.u consider rice a "physical" type wr like those other guys u list? i'd say cruz compares to rice way more than any other guy on that lis aside frm fitz

dakotajoe
01-24-2013, 10:39 PM
Niche receiver? How about this play - lined up wide TD in double coverage against a physical CB.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnTNQnAZpvU

...But I guess some people will always compare him to the 32 year old 5'9 on a good day Welker who can only jump 30 inches...

Welker are two completely different players that both possess quickness.

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 10:47 PM
u consider rice a "physical" type wr like those other guys u list? i'd say cruz compares to rice way more than any other guy on that lis aside frm fitz
He fought for the ball a lot more, jumped higher, better blocker. Cruz is not in the same breath as Jerry Rice though.

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 10:50 PM
Niche receiver? How about this play - lined up wide TD in double coverage against a physical CB.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnTNQnAZpvU

...But I guess some people will always compare him to the 32 year old 5'9 on a good day Welker who can only jump 30 inches...

Welker are two completely different players that both possess quickness.

Great catch, you know who also had a really great catch? David Tyree. Did either of them do it consistently? No.

Not saying Cruz is David Tyree by any means, but showing two plays he had in the same year is not gonna change the case that he is a excellent slot receiver, but not a great all around receiver.

dakotajoe
01-24-2013, 11:04 PM
Great catch, you know who also had a really great catch? David Tyree. Did either of them do it consistently? No.

Not saying Cruz is David Tyree by any means, but showing two plays he had in the same year is not gonna change the case that he is a excellent slot receiver, but not a great all around receiver.

Jerry Rice had a slot receiver skill set. Slow downfield but quick footed and ran good routes.

You mentioned how Rice could jump higher than Cruz before but it's doubtful given that Cruz has measured one of the best verticals in the league at WR at 41.5 inches. That's higher than almost all of the so called "elite" outside receivers. I can post another 5 videos of Cruz making circus catches in traffic but why even bother?

What's consistent if 2600 yards in two seasons isn't? Calvin Johnson even disappeared in games at times and had 4 TDs less than Cruz. I think we'd all like to have our players make every play but it just doesn't work like that :/.

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 11:27 PM
Please do not compare the best receiver of all time to Cruz, don't be ridiculous. Rice had amazing worth ethic and Cruz can not even be compared to him. Cruz had 500 yards in 11 games this season, only had multiple touchdowns once vs the Browns. Come on, to compare him to the best receiver of all time is so far fetched.

Rice was a better blocker, had the best work ethic in the history of the NFL, he had a sort of style of play that Cruz had but was better at it by far. He was consistently covered by the best corners in the NFL and could find holes all the time. He was a lot more reliable than Cruz, I wish Cruz was half the player Rice was but there's a long way to go lol.

Is Cruz a excellent slot receiver? Yes. Should he get payed? Yes. He is not elite, and he shouldn't be compared to Jerry Rice when he had 2 seasons in the NFL and proved he couldn't put up similar numbers when he was the #1 consistently.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 11:37 PM
Jerry Rice had a slot receiver skill set. Slow downfield but quick footed and ran good routes.

You mentioned how Rice could jump higher than Cruz before but it's doubtful given that Cruz has measured one of the best verticals in the league at WR at 41.5 inches. That's higher than almost all of the so called "elite" outside receivers. I can post another 5 videos of Cruz making circus catches in traffic but why even bother?

What's consistent if 2600 yards in two seasons isn't? Calvin Johnson even disappeared in games at times and had 4 TDs less than Cruz. I think we'd all like to have our players make every play but it just doesn't work like that :/.for the win

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 11:38 PM
Please do not compare the best receiver of all time to Cruz, don't be ridiculous. Rice had amazing worth ethic and Cruz can not even be compared to him. Cruz had 500 yards in 11 games this season, only had multiple touchdowns once vs the Browns. Come on, to compare him to the best receiver of all time is so far fetched.

Rice was a better blocker, had the best work ethic in the history of the NFL, he had a sort of style of play that Cruz had but was better at it by far. He was consistently covered by the best corners in the NFL and could find holes all the time. He was a lot more reliable than Cruz, I wish Cruz was half the player Rice was but there's a long way to go lol.

Is Cruz a excellent slot receiver? Yes. Should he get payed? Yes. He is not elite, and he shouldn't be compared to Jerry Rice when he had 2 seasons in the NFL and proved he couldn't put up similar numbers when he was the #1 consistently.no ones saying cruz is on rice's level...at all. we're just saying cruz has a similar skill set to rice...

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 11:38 PM
I don't know another person who'd say Cruz is comparable to Jerry Rice.

Rice was quicker, more reliable, and made space for himself to catch the ball, hence being physical. Cruz runs underneath patterns and the D pays more attention to Nicks who goes deep, and payed more attention to Manningham also. Cruz finds space, and he does a great job at it, Rice made space for himself when he needed to.

giantsfan420
01-24-2013, 11:39 PM
I don't know another person who'd say Cruz is comparable to Jerry Rice.me neither. i know plenty of intelligent people who can recognize cruz has a similar set of skills with rice...

edit-u even say so urself in ur post a couple posts ago

GTGiantsFan
01-24-2013, 11:48 PM
me neither. i know plenty of intelligent people who can recognize cruz has a similar set of skills with rice...

edit-u even say so urself in ur post a couple posts ago

Point I was making that Rice was more physical, do they have some similarities in their game? Of course, but Rice was better, and more physical, taller, could jump higher (in game I haven't seen Cruz jump too high, only one a few occasions), could leap down the middle catch it and run in stride.

When I look at Cruz I see an excellent slot receiver, the best in the game right now at what he does. He's had some great games for us, and has made some great plays for us, but until he can do it consistently I won't look at him as a top 5 conventional receiver.

Marvelousmik
01-24-2013, 11:59 PM
theres a big difference with cruz and welker tho. Cruz is a legitimate downfield threat who can make contested jump ball catches...maybe welker can do those things too but for whatever reason is never used that way.
Welker is pretty much purely a slot wr. cruz proved hes dangerous on the perimeter as well as slot...

+1 id also like to add desean jackson is not a physical type, and hes not tall, but he gets paid good money because hes a home run hitter. Cruz is capable of hitting those big plays and he is capable of winning the jump balls too. I say pay the man. He has added a lot of swag to our offense and with him we are a lot more dangerous on offense.

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 12:11 AM
I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.



I dont think this is true. its a lot easier to find someone like nicks than to find a cruz. Quick, in 10 seconds name 3 slot receivers in the NFL besides cruz and welker.

Lol it would take you a lot longer to name 3 good slot receivers than to name 3 good receivers who line up on the outside. You probably dont know of any other good slot receivers. Honestly, there are a ton of guys now who can do what nicks does and win the jump balls. Randell showcased that ability later this season. And I can probably name you about 15 other guys in the league. Finding a home run hitter who can score from anywhere, and make people miss the way cruz does in the open field is harder to find in my opinion.

Calvin johnson is in a totally different league from both nicks or cruz. Hes a rare talent and there isnt another receiver like him in the NFL really.

gmen0820
01-25-2013, 12:27 AM
I dont think this is true. its a lot easier to find someone like nicks than to find a cruz. Quick, in 10 seconds name 3 slot receivers in the NFL besides cruz and welker.

Lol it would take you a lot longer to name 3 good slot receivers than to name 3 good receivers who line up on the outside. You probably dont know of any other good slot receivers. Honestly, there are a ton of guys now who can do what nicks does and win the jump balls. Randell showcased that ability later this season. And I can probably name you about 15 other guys in the league. Finding a home run hitter who can score from anywhere, and make people miss the way cruz does in the open field is harder to find in my opinion.

Calvin johnson is in a totally different league from both nicks or cruz. Hes a rare talent and there isnt another receiver like him in the NFL really.Are you insinuating that slot receivers are more valuable than outside receivers?

GTGiantsFan
01-25-2013, 12:33 AM
Amendola is a very good slot receiver, I think Jennings can play the slot effectively, Nelson, Hixon, Harvin does very well in the slot. Hawkins from the Bengals is supposedly pretty good. Cruz does a better job than all of them though.

giantsfan420
01-25-2013, 12:34 AM
Point I was making that Rice was more physical, do they have some similarities in their game? Of course, but Rice was better, and more physical, taller, could jump higher (in game I haven't seen Cruz jump too high, only one a few occasions), could leap down the middle catch it and run in stride.

When I look at Cruz I see an excellent slot receiver, the best in the game right now at what he does. He's had some great games for us, and has made some great plays for us, but until he can do it consistently I won't look at him as a top 5 conventional receiver.fair enough

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 01:00 AM
Are you insinuating that slot receivers are more valuable than outside receivers?

A penny from the 1800's is more of value than a newly printed dollar. But the dollar is worth more. ( in terms of currency)

an outside receiver is worth more than a slot receiver however, since outside receivers are a lot easier to find than slot receivers i value the slot guy more.

If someone puts up 1200 yards from the outside and another person puts up 1200 from the slot, let me keep the slot guy and we can find someone else to play the outside. rarely would you see a slot receiver being this productive. That's just the way I look at it. if you look around the league you can probably find 15+ outside receivers with 1000+ yards. However you wont find many slot guys with that.

I feel the same way when it comes to tight ends. If i had a choice between a young andre johnson, or a young Tony Gonzales, give me the tight end. we can always find another outside receiver. great tight ends are harder to come by.

gmen0820
01-25-2013, 01:06 AM
an outside receiver is worth more than a slot receiver however, since outside receivers are a lot easier to find than slot receivers i value the slot guy more. What's that 'L'-word in your sig again?

gmen0820
01-25-2013, 01:10 AM
I feel the same way when it comes to tight ends. If i had a choice between a young andre johnson, or a young Tony Gonzales, give me the tight end. we can always find another outside receiver. great tight ends are harder to come by.Define great for me.

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 01:15 AM
What's that 'L'-word in your sig again?

Again, I made the penny reference in order for you to be able to read between the lines a little better. I value the slot guy more because i feel its easier to find outside guys. Ill give you one more example. If i had to choose only 1 good receiver. An outside guy or a slot guy. Of course i would rather the outside guy because he is worth more to a team. However, since we can have more than 1 receiver i value the slot guy more because i believe we can find another good outside receiver before we would be able to find another great slot guy. If you understand the point i am trying to make, you would understand my logic. I am not saying that I am correct. I'm just letting you know how i look at things.

gmen0820
01-25-2013, 01:19 AM
Again, I made the penny reference in order for you to be able to read between the lines a little better. I value the slot guy more because i feel its easier to find outside guys. Ill give you one more example. If i had to choose only 1 good receiver. An outside guy or a slot guy. Of course i would rather the outside guy because he is worth more to a team. However, since we can have more than 1 receiver i value the slot guy more because i believe we can find another good outside receiver before we would be able to find another great slot guy. If you understand the point i am trying to make, you would understand my logic. I am not saying that I am correct. I'm just letting you know how i look at things.So are you suggesting that dominant split-ends can't play the slot effectively?

Would they lose all feel for effective route running as they go against nickel corners? Would they forget how to catch altogether?

gmen0820
01-25-2013, 01:20 AM
I guess what I'm asking is, what physical skill-set is unique to slot receivers?

TheAnalyst
01-25-2013, 08:18 AM
We can't resign Nicks and Cruz unless Eli sheds some money. He jumps from 10M to 20M against the cap this year. I actually would consider Cruz over Nicks because Randle is more of a Nicks mould and most likely will be a much healthier athlete. Nicks is a beast though when healthy. Tough situation.

gumby74
01-25-2013, 08:24 AM
To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.


I dont think this is true. its a lot easier to find someone like nicks than to find a cruz. Quick, in 10 seconds name 3 slot receivers in the NFL besides cruz and welker.

Lol it would take you a lot longer to name 3 good slot receivers than to name 3 good receivers who line up on the outside. You probably dont know of any other good slot receivers. Honestly, there are a ton of guys now who can do what nicks does and win the jump balls. Randell showcased that ability later this season. And I can probably name you about 15 other guys in the league. Finding a home run hitter who can score from anywhere, and make people miss the way cruz does in the open field is harder to find in my opinion.

Calvin johnson is in a totally different league from both nicks or cruz. Hes a rare talent and there isnt another receiver like him in the NFL really.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

People can't name 3 really good slot receivers because imo, they're for the lack of a better term - non-descript. Slot guys aren't getting the money for a reason. They just aren't as valuable or are easier to find and replace.

gumby74
01-25-2013, 08:37 AM
To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.


A penny from the 1800's is more of value than a newly printed dollar. But the dollar is worth more. ( in terms of currency)

an outside receiver is worth more than a slot receiver however, since outside receivers are a lot easier to find than slot receivers i value the slot guy more.

If someone puts up 1200 yards from the outside and another person puts up 1200 from the slot, let me keep the slot guy and we can find someone else to play the outside. rarely would you see a slot receiver being this productive. That's just the way I look at it. if you look around the league you can probably find 15+ outside receivers with 1000+ yards. However you wont find many slot guys with that.

I feel the same way when it comes to tight ends. If i had a choice between a young andre johnson, or a young Tony Gonzales, give me the tight end. we can always find another outside receiver. great tight ends are harder to come by.

Again, you can look at it this way. You don't "know" of any good slot guys because they're dime a dozen (Slots like Cruz and Welker are not though). Slot WRs play a certain role in the offense. It's easier to find/replace that role. NFL economics pretty much says that. Once you have a slot that starts producing big plays like Welker/Cruz, then it starts overlapping with the outside. I'd say that most NFL don't expect their slot guy to give you outside like ability. And because of that, teams are not willing to pay a premium for that. It's something that they see as nice, but not necessary. You already have players that already fulfill that role as the outside guy.

To put it in real life terms. If I need to drive 1 mile to the parking lot every day for work and I'm short on money. Do I buy a Toyota or a Ferrari. The Ferrari will get me their faster and has some other perks, but the Toyota will do the job well enough. You go with the Toyota.

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 09:17 AM
.You don't "know" of any good slot guys because they're dime a dozen

If they were a dime a dozen id know a lot of slot receivers with the type of production cruz and welker gives.(1000+ yards a season) That goes for you too.


(Slots like Cruz and Welker are not though).

Exactly.

And if you look at this list you will see that 1000+ yards for an outside receiver is the norm now.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Flip Empty
01-25-2013, 09:26 AM
Cruz plays outside as well as the slot, though. Bit unfair labelling him a pure slot guy.

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 09:41 AM
Cruz plays outside as well as the slot, though. Bit unfair labelling him a pure slot guy.

This is true. I dont know why people down play the slot so much. Steve smith averaged about 500 to 600 yards a season plying the slot. as soon as he was forced into the number 1 role when we only had him and manningham, he racked up 1200 yards. The fact that outside receivers are constantly putting up better numbers than slot receivers leads me to believe the slot might possibly be a harder position to play. It does come with more responsibility.

GTGiantsFan
01-25-2013, 11:01 AM
Smith was a possession receiver, he could play the slot, but didn't have the speed to be a full time slot receiver like Hawkins, Harvin, Cruz, etc.

gumby74
01-25-2013, 12:45 PM
To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.


If they were a dime a dozen id know a lot of slot receivers with the type of production cruz and welker gives.(1000+ yards a season) That goes for you too.



Exactly.

And if you look at this list you will see that 1000+ yards for an outside receiver is the norm now.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

It goes beyond productivity though and that's really my point. Wes Welker can have a 1700 yard season with 25 TDs, and Calvin Johnson, Fitz, and all those other guys will still command more money even if their stats aren't as good.

gmen46
01-25-2013, 01:52 PM
This is true. I dont know why people down play the slot so much. Steve smith averaged about 500 to 600 yards a season plying the slot. as soon as he was forced into the number 1 role when we only had him and manningham, he racked up 1200 yards. The fact that outside receivers are constantly putting up better numbers than slot receivers leads me to believe the slot might possibly be a harder position to play. It does come with more responsibility.

+1

Following the interesting debate in this thread, I find myself agreeing with the aspects of a good slot's role as you describe them. Your last 2 sentences describe the slot role -- and the reason it is not an easy one to fill by many teams -- best, in my opinion.

In fact, this challenge was confirmed by Gilbride at the beginning of 2011 season, when asked who was going to fill the Smith role after we all learned of Smith's departure. As of Week 3, prior to the game vs Eagles, he admitted he still had no answer and was still in the process of determining who--if any--on the team was capable of stepping into that role. In fact, it was the reason we picked up Stokely--but then he was quickly injured.

At the time, KG was thinking either Hixon (who went down for the season in the first half of game 2) or Manningham (who was concussed in the same game) were his best chances of developing at least an adequate replacement for Smith.

And the reason he gave for it being so challenging a position to replace was that it is a much more complex position to play well consistently. The reason for this is that it requires not only certain physical attributes (primarily quickness and instinct), but it requires the ability to read the defensive formations in their entirety as it develops after the snap, and to instantly telegraph to his QB his resultant move, much more so than any outside receiver is required to do.

I love what Nicks brings to our receiving corps. He brings more than any Giants receiver I can remember, going back to 1980 (and I was a huge fan of Toomer when he played, but Nicks will surpass all that he did for us, imo). Even though he had a fall off year this year, I see that as aberration due to injury and he will return to form next year and beyond. I believe he is comparable to Fitzgerald and in some ways to Michael Irvin in their respective abilities a "the Playmaker".

But Cruz is a Welker with more height and speed. And, unlike Welker who is 6 years closer to the end of his career, Cruz is just beginning and has shown the ability to learn from mistakes and improve. And he can function at a high level on the outside when asked.

Much--on this board--has been made of his drop to 1100+ yards in 2012 from 1500+ yards in 2011. I think this is very narrow thinking. A superior slot/wide receiver is more valuable to a team than is measured in total yards for a season. And after 2 complete seasons, Cruz has--to most fans at least--proven he is more than any "one hit wonder".

Fact is, if we want to continue to be more like the Giants offense of 2011--and I believe we will--we need both Nicks and Cruz. They embody the phrase "the sum is greater than the parts".

Because of that, in my opinion, Reese wants to find a way to keep Cruz in this off season, and equally wants to find a way to keep Nicks next off season. It will not come down to "either / or" as some on this board fear.

giantsfan420
01-25-2013, 04:10 PM
ive noticed no one seems to have recognized that our offensive system also places more emphasis on the slot role. kg's is predicated on the sight adjustment routes and getting the 1v1's to exploit. Usually, well pre Cruz emergence, that was out of the slot. Since SS12 and Cruz have had amazing success out of the slot in KG's offense, teams have placed a much higher priority on defending it. I swear, when i watch other games, i rarely see bracket coverage or a combo coverage scheme on the slot wr like we almost always saw this past season (in part bc teams could with nicks hobbled. teams decided to basically leave either him or hixon/randle in 1v1 coverage). And part of the reason our offense had the struggles it did, was bc those particular games, Cruz was getting doubled effectively, and no one else was capable of threatening the D and sustaining it...

when people try and downplay cruz bc hes a slot wr, they're almost thinking backwards. if anything, cruz's effectiveness out of the slot should be viewed differently than the erst of the league (sans a team like NE who also places a premium on the slot. coincidence both offenses usually rank among the best?) because in our offense, playing the slot isnt some lesser challenge than playing out wide...its as important and its why, imo, the guys we've found who played well out of the slot dont have issues moving out wide

giantsfan420
01-25-2013, 04:14 PM
not to mention, the slot wr will usually be the "hot" (when the wr's defender is blitzing) wr...except when teams face us, they recognized cruz was a terror as the hot wr bc it mean he was getting into open space immediately and forcing a safety or corner to tackle him isolated. cruz almost always shakes that and gets huge YAC, so teams fundamentally changed it up...i dunno the #'s but it seemed like defenses went out of their way to ensure cruz wouldnt be the hot route...and its because of how dangerous he is out of the slot...but when he goes out wide, he doesnt suddenly lose his YAC ability either.

Marvelousmik
01-25-2013, 10:10 PM
It goes beyond productivity though and that's really my point. Wes Welker can have a 1700 yard season with 25 TDs, and Calvin Johnson, Fitz, and all those other guys will still command more money even if their stats aren't as good.

It does go beyond productivity I agree with that. But it also goes beyond being a slot receiver or an outside receiver. it has to do with your skill set and what you bring to the table. If desean jackson was a slot receiver he would still make that kind of money because of what he brought to the table at the time of his first contract.

So what does cruz do for our offense? He is a vertical threat, he can score from anywhere on the field and he is dangerous with the ball in his hands. Not only that, but he knows how to talk in front of the media, the fans love him, he doesn't get in off the field trouble and he has yet to miss a game. teams aren't going to over look all of those things and say "well he is a slot receiver. don't pay him". I'd be shocked if him and JR didn't come to an agreement. and if he doesn't get the money from here someone else will pay him.

Rudyy
01-25-2013, 10:46 PM
In summary, is Cruz worth 8-10 million? You bet he's worth every penny. Do we have that kind of money? We do not, but I'm sure he's not going to be ridiculous and ask for that much.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 06:39 AM
We can't resign Nicks and Cruz unless Eli sheds some money. He jumps from 10M to 20M against the cap this year. I actually would consider Cruz over Nicks because Randle is more of a Nicks mould and most likely will be a much healthier athlete. Nicks is a beast though when healthy. Tough situation.

There will be no "shedding money" for Eli or anyone else under contract. The players are entitled to every dime negotiated in their contracts. They can ask for a restructure which just spreads the existing money around over the rest of the contract. But unless they are ready to release a player under contract they are going to get every dime. I'm guessing Eli's not on the waiver wire any time soon.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 06:45 AM
In summary, is Cruz worth 8-10 million? You bet he's worth every penny. Do we have that kind of money? We do not, but I'm sure he's not going to be ridiculous and ask for that much.

Here's the problem we fans have. We look at every contract individually. Reese has to look at them all and make hard choices every season. We don't know who he is getting ready to release, ask to restructure, or take a pay cut. He and his team have to evaluate every players' performance, decide what they think is a fair offer, consider what FA will bring, and they decide who stays and who goes.

It's just a complicated process made all the harder by the CAP. If the CAP is so restrictive for the Giants then players like Will Beatty, Victor Cruz, and Martellus Bennett will be wearing new uniforms in 2013. I'm thinking all three will be here.