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JesseJames
01-26-2013, 04:29 PM
I hope this doesn't happen because he is an important part of the future but stranger things have happened and what will your feelings be if Reese is forced to lose him...

jax5338
01-26-2013, 04:35 PM
bewildered, betrayed...

bill2000
01-26-2013, 04:39 PM
Befuddled

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 04:42 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m49ir6sCsK1qbmust.gif

Carter.525
01-26-2013, 04:48 PM
I would cry myself to sleep..

Jppallday
01-26-2013, 04:50 PM
We will have a very bad season next year if we lose Victor. This is a passing league, we have no other choice but to make sure we sign both him and Nicks. If not we are doomed

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 04:50 PM
sad

TheEnigma
01-26-2013, 04:53 PM
http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/guy-jumps-out-of-window-suddenly.gif

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 04:53 PM
It's certainly possible, but I think it's a good sign that there haven't been any leaks about progress. Now that they have reportedly signed Pascoe, we should be seeing more activity. The more important the player is to the team, the longer negotiations take. If they don't sign him by March 12th I think it's 50/50 they will be able to keep him.

DownWitJPP
01-26-2013, 04:57 PM
hes a restricted FA so either way we will not come out empty handed this year. If he does out price himself to THE ONLY TEAM that gave him a shot then the hell with him. He needs to keep the Steve Smith ordeal in the back of his head.

Ruttiger711
01-26-2013, 04:58 PM
Will suck if he's gone.... if another team winds up signing him for 7mil or less a year I will be furious. If he goes somewhere and its an enormous 9-10 mil or higher deal then I'd say the Giants hands were tied.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 05:02 PM
hes a restricted FA so either way we will not come out empty handed this year. If he does out price himself to THE ONLY TEAM that gave him a shot then the hell with him. He needs to keep the Steve Smith ordeal in the back of his head. You can't compare the two situations. Smith was offered a lucrative contract long before his existing contract expired, then he got injured. Cruz owes the Giants nothing but his best effort on the field and he has given them that.

Diamondring
01-26-2013, 05:05 PM
Congrats to the other team that gets him.

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 05:06 PM
hes a restricted FA so either way we will not come out empty handed this year. If he does out price himself to THE ONLY TEAM that gave him a shot then the hell with him. He needs to keep the Steve Smith ordeal in the back of his head.

Cruz's situation is not remotely similar to Steve Smith's.

DownWitJPP
01-26-2013, 05:06 PM
I respect your opinion Roanoke, but i disagree. We were the only team to give this kid a shot...if Jerry Reese makes him a fair offer and he out prices himself asking for Calvin Johnson type money then i think that's wrong.

and i wasn't comparing the two situations. I meant if he leaves for mega money his career might take a downfall as he won't have Eli throwing him the ball anymore. Just like Smith's career took a ****

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 05:07 PM
Congrats to the other team that gets him. Hopefully in the NFC East as a constant reminder of what might have been.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 05:12 PM
I respect your opinion Roanoke, but i disagree. We were the only team to give this kid a shot...if Jerry Reese makes him a fair offer and he out prices himself asking for Calvin Johnson type money then i think that's wrong. and i wasn't comparing the two situations. I meant if he leaves for mega money his career might take a downfall as he won't have Eli throwing him the ball anymore. Just like Smith's career took a ****


Other teams, including the Jets were salivating when we had to bring in an emergency kicker which should have sent Cruz to the waiver wire. He'd had a minor hamstring issue so they were able to put him on IR for which they were investigated. Cruz wants to be here, but why should he take a one year deal at $2+M if there is a team willing to sign him long term for 5 times that amount for 4/5 years?

JesseJames
01-26-2013, 05:14 PM
my own feelings on this are that Cruz is a definite star in this league and will command big bucks just like any other high producing player and for that reason if I were him I would follow the money trail just like everybody else does. We have to remember that sometimes a players window for the big bucks is only there until the next injury and then it could be closed forever and then everything is what might have been. I want him to stay because we need him but if he walks I hope I will understand...

NorwoodBlue
01-26-2013, 05:16 PM
I think if he goes to another team he could be exposed as another one of those guys who fit into this system and was complimented by the guys around him. He could very well be a flop elsewhere. He has definite value for the Giants; but if they lose him and still have Nicks and Randle, I don't see the end of the world. There's a reason Cruz went undrafted, and other teams saw his production when Nicks was playing when he shouldn't have been. If some other team throws big money at him, unfortunately we've got to let him go. We'll get some compensation in the draft, and we'll move on.

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 05:19 PM
I think if he goes to another team he could be exposed as another one of those guys who fit into this system and was complimented by the guys around him. He could very well be a flop elsewhere. He has definite value for the Giants; but if they lose him and still have Nicks and Randle, I don't see the end of the world. There's a reason Cruz went undrafted, and other teams saw his production when Nicks was playing when he shouldn't have been. If some other team throws big money at him, unfortunately we've got to let him go. We'll get some compensation in the draft, and we'll move on.The reason he went undrafted wasn't because of his skill level.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 05:20 PM
We'll know soon enough

GoDeep80
01-26-2013, 05:21 PM
I'd feel bittersweet because yea we lost a great player but we'd still at the very least we'd get a 1st because he's a RFA. Not to mention Randle is more of an outside receiver and We still need to pay Nicks, Jernigan is waiting in the wings and you see what happens when guys on this team get their opportunity.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 05:21 PM
I think if he goes to another team he could be exposed as another one of those guys who fit into this system and was complimented by the guys around him. He could very well be a flop elsewhere. He has definite value for the Giants; but if they lose him and still have Nicks and Randle, I don't see the end of the world. There's a reason Cruz went undrafted, and other teams saw his production when Nicks was playing when he shouldn't have been. If some other team throws big money at him, unfortunately we've got to let him go. We'll get some compensation in the draft, and we'll move on. Undrafted? Seriously?

DownWitJPP
01-26-2013, 05:26 PM
Other teams, including the Jets were salivating when we had to bring in an emergency kicker which should have sent Cruz to the waiver wire. He'd had a minor hamstring issue so they were able to put him on IR for which they were investigated. Cruz wants to be here, but why should he take a one year deal at $2+M if there is a team willing to sign him long term for 5 times that amount for 4/5 years? like i said a fair contract. I was thinking a 4 or 5 yr deal @ 6-8 Mil . I like Cruz and i hope we can get a deal reached, but he doesn't deserve Calvin Johnson type money.

As far as the Jets or any other teams go, they wouldn't even know who he was if we didn't bring him into training camp. They only knew about him because of the breakout pre-season game when Rex was drooling

NorwoodBlue
01-26-2013, 05:35 PM
Undrafted? Seriously?

WTF? He was undrafted, that's just a fact. It's also probable that he would have been cut by most teams in the league, and never made a roster but for one preseason game against the Jets. Cruz has been incredibly fortunate to fall into just the right situation on the Giants. Also, without Hixon's injury in 2011 this could have been a whole different story. And after seeing his performances when Nicks was the walking wounded, it's not a stretch at all to say he's benefited a ton from the system, Eli, and Nicks. I don't think the guy walks on water, and I think his future with some other organization isn't a guaranteed success like a lot of people assume. I think he'd be a fool to leave; but if he does, we'll survive.

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 05:36 PM
I respect your opinion Roanoke, but i disagree. We were the only team to give this kid a shot...if Jerry Reese makes him a fair offer and he out prices himself asking for Calvin Johnson type money then i think that's wrong.

and i wasn't comparing the two situations. I meant if he leaves for mega money his career might take a downfall as he won't have Eli throwing him the ball anymore. Just like Smith's career took a ****

Smith's career took a nose dive because of a serious injury. He was smart to take the money from the Eagles.

GameTime
01-26-2013, 05:44 PM
Cruz is a pro bowl type player and it would suck if he was left to go to another team.....

Ruttiger711
01-26-2013, 05:47 PM
Smith's career took a nose dive because of a serious injury. He was smart to take the money from the Eagles.

He was out of choices - the dumb move was not taking the offer the Giants made him when he was healthy. It was rumored at around 35 million and he decided to test the market after another year, didnt count on getting hurt and had to claw at the 4 mil the eagles gave him.

Smart or hardly any other choice?

BigBlue1971
01-26-2013, 05:48 PM
although i dont think the Giants will let Cruz walk but even if the conversation came up i think Eli would have some input on that decision.

if he did leave it would be a huge lost and i expect all Giants' fans would demand an explanation.

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 06:07 PM
He was out of choices - the dumb move was not taking the offer the Giants made him when he was healthy. It was rumored at around 35 million and he decided to test the market after another year, didnt count on getting hurt and had to claw at the 4 mil the eagles gave him.

Smart or hardly any other choice?

I agree . . . should have taken the big money when he had the chance but he rolled the dice and lost (as opposed to Flacco who has apparently rolled the dice and won).

Once that ship sailed though, it was smart for him to take the $3M from the Eagles instead of the Giants $1M offer.

egyptian420
01-26-2013, 06:21 PM
WTF? He was undrafted, that's just a fact. It's also probable that he would have been cut by most teams in the league, and never made a roster but for one preseason game against the Jets. Cruz has been incredibly fortunate to fall into just the right situation on the Giants. Also, without Hixon's injury in 2011 this could have been a whole different story.I agree with this part, but how does that say anything about whether or not he's a good player right now?

As for him being "exposed" when Nicks was injured, I tottaly disagree with that. He still managed to get over 1000 yards and that would've been more if he didn't drop some balls. He needs to reduce the drops I'll admit but that can't be blamed on Nicks not being there lol

Drez
01-26-2013, 06:21 PM
It would suck, but I'd take comfort in the fact that we'd be getting a 1st rounder in compensation for a guy we didn't even draft.

Drez
01-26-2013, 06:25 PM
I respect your opinion Roanoke, but i disagree. We were the only team to give this kid a shot...if Jerry Reese makes him a fair offer and he out prices himself asking for Calvin Johnson type money then i think that's wrong.

and i wasn't comparing the two situations. I meant if he leaves for mega money his career might take a downfall as he won't have Eli throwing him the ball anymore. Just like Smith's career took a ****If some other teams offers him significantly more money than us, why shouldn't he take it? Sure we were the team that gave him a shot, but that doesn't mean he should feel beholden to us, especially if we're not even in the ball park of what the other team's offer is.

nhpgiantsfan
01-26-2013, 06:26 PM
Cruz doesn't owe us anything. His past two seasons have put him in the situation to get paid. He has given the Giants way more production than they paid him for. And now it's his turn to do what's best for him. I hope he stays but if the Giants don't give him the best deal, I won't hold it against him if he leaves. It's all business.

DownWitJPP
01-26-2013, 06:27 PM
as long as the Giants make him a fair offer I highly doubt he goes anywhere...his mom and fiance's family both live in the local area. They also live near the stadium

TheAussieGiant
01-26-2013, 06:30 PM
Love the first couple replies to this thread lol. Sums it up perfectly.

egyptian420
01-26-2013, 06:30 PM
Maybe I'm too optimistic but I don't see us letting him walk. I think it's almost certain that he isn't going anywhere but that's just my opinion

Drez
01-26-2013, 06:32 PM
The reason he went undrafted wasn't because of his skill level.Yeah, I'd have to say it was more because of his academic problems and going to UMASS.

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 06:59 PM
At first I'd feel a bit:

http://i.imgur.com/89Veg.gif

But that'd quickly move on to:

http://s13.postimage.org/tv80bv4qd/5iridskr_11m.gif

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 07:05 PM
Yeah, I'd have to say it was more because of his academic problems and going to UMASS.Exactly. Cruz flunked out, wasn't focused but then once he started playing again and got himself back together, his coaches had nothing but high praise for him.

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 07:06 PM
At first I'd feel a bit:

http://i.imgur.com/89Veg.gif

But that'd quickly move on to:

http://s13.postimage.org/tv80bv4qd/5iridskr_11m.gifEli gifs >

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 07:07 PM
like i said a fair contract. I was thinking a 4 or 5 yr deal @ 6-8 Mil . I like Cruz and i hope we can get a deal reached, but he doesn't deserve Calvin Johnson type money.

As far as the Jets or any other teams go, they wouldn't even know who he was if we didn't bring him into training camp. They only knew about him because of the breakout pre-season game when Rex was drooling

He deserves whatever the market says he deserves. That's how it works. Will he stay with the Giants for less money? Maybe, but not it it's significantly less over the term of a multi-year contract.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 07:08 PM
Eli gifs >

Can you return the wedding dress?

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 07:11 PM
WTF? He was undrafted, that's just a fact. It's also probable that he would have been cut by most teams in the league, and never made a roster but for one preseason game against the Jets. Cruz has been incredibly fortunate to fall into just the right situation on the Giants. Also, without Hixon's injury in 2011 this could have been a whole different story. And after seeing his performances when Nicks was the walking wounded, it's not a stretch at all to say he's benefited a ton from the system, Eli, and Nicks. I don't think the guy walks on water, and I think his future with some other organization isn't a guaranteed success like a lot of people assume. I think he'd be a fool to leave; but if he does, we'll survive.

He would have been cut by most teams? You have absolutely no way of knowing that, but after his first preseason, a lot of teams would have gladly taken a chance on him. All we did was scout him and bring him in for a look. He did everything else.

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 07:17 PM
Yes I'm sure undrafted Arian Foster is also a product of his team's system.

Criticise the scouts and evaluators, not the players in question.

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 07:19 PM
Can you return the wedding dress?lmao

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 07:21 PM
Cruz doesn't owe us anything. His past two seasons have put him in the situation to get paid. He has given the Giants way more production than they paid him for. And now it's his turn to do what's best for him. I hope he stays but if the Giants don't give him the best deal, I won't hold it against him if he leaves. It's all business.

+1

I find it funny when posters urge players to "do the right thing" in contract negotiations (i.e., take less money from the Giants than they can get elsewhere), like they would ever do the same in their own jobs.

This is a business. Any player that treats it otherwise is doing a disservice to himself and his family.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 07:21 PM
lmao

I know it matches your rhinestone cleats, but ......

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 07:25 PM
http://i.imgur.com/PrJae.jpg

born blue
01-26-2013, 07:26 PM
Nicks is FA next year, and I'm not sure the Giants want to or can pay both Nicks and Cruz. Why not tender Cruz for a 1st and 3rd, let him and Nicks play together next year, and then pick which one to sign?

TCHOF
01-26-2013, 07:27 PM
Nicks is FA next year, and I'm not sure the Giants want to or can pay both Nicks and Cruz. Why not tender Cruz for a 1st and 3rd, let him and Nicks play together next year, and then pick which one to sign?

That's exactly what will happen unless we can work out a reasonable long term deal with Cruz

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 07:34 PM
Nicks is FA next year, and I'm not sure the Giants want to or can pay both Nicks and Cruz. Why not tender Cruz for a 1st and 3rd, let him and Nicks play together next year, and then pick which one to sign?

Nicks doesn't become a FA until 2014. If they want to keep them both, they have to sign Cruz to a long term deal this this season and Nicks next season. They won't be able to afford both deals next year.

I think we can agree Cruz deserves better than the tag based on his performance. If that's what they do, what makes him want to be here after 2013? He's been "underpaid" since 2011 when he set records. He never complained, never held out, willingly waited for his time to come. That time is now. If they low ball him again with the tender, I'd say that was a slap in the face.

If Reese, on the other hand, says I am only willing to go $6.5M a year for 4 years and the Patriots offer him $8M for 5 years and are willing to give up a 1st for him, what would any of us do? Obviously these numbers bear no resemblance to reality.

Drez
01-26-2013, 07:34 PM
Nicks is FA next year, and I'm not sure the Giants want to or can pay both Nicks and Cruz. Why not tender Cruz for a 1st and 3rd, let him and Nicks play together next year, and then pick which one to sign?Rules have changed, we can only tender him at a 1st. But, still, if we lose Cruz at least we'll get some kind of compensation for him; it won't be empty handed.

BigBlueAllDay
01-26-2013, 07:45 PM
Nicks doesn't become a FA until 2014. If they want to keep them both, they have to sign Cruz to a long term deal this this season and Nicks next season. They won't be able to afford both deals next year.

I think we can agree Cruz deserves better than the tag based on his performance. If that's what they do, what makes him want to be here after 2013? He's been "underpaid" since 2011 when he set records. He never complained, never held out, willingly waited for his time to come. That time is now. If they low ball him again with the tender, I'd say that was a slap in the face.

If Reese, on the other hand, says I am only willing to go $6.5M a year for 4 years and the Patriots offer him $8M for 5 years and are willing to give up a 1st for him, what would any of us do? Obviously these numbers bear no resemblance to reality.


I agree. I can trust Reese to get a deal done with Cruz. To have an NFL player that won't go public about being seriously underpaid and being patient through his contract is a luxury in itself.

born blue
01-26-2013, 07:51 PM
Nicks doesn't become a FA until 2014. If they want to keep them both, they have to sign Cruz to a long term deal this this season and Nicks next season. They won't be able to afford both deals next year.

I think we can agree Cruz deserves better than the tag based on his performance. If that's what they do, what makes him want to be here after 2013? He's been "underpaid" since 2011 when he set records. He never complained, never held out, willingly waited for his time to come. That time is now. If they low ball him again with the tender, I'd say that was a slap in the face.

If Reese, on the other hand, says I am only willing to go $6.5M a year for 4 years and the Patriots offer him $8M for 5 years and are willing to give up a 1st for him, what would any of us do? Obviously these numbers bear no resemblance to reality.

I agree with everything you're saying here. I'm just thinking that long term, it might not be viable to have two big time receivers making big time money. I'm drawing a blank in thinking of successful teams that spend a lot of money on WR. I think we may have to live with the idea that if Reese signs Vic to an extension (which I'm fine with...love the kid), and Nicks has a big year next year, that we will probably have to let him walk and get nothing in return.

BigBlueAllDay
01-26-2013, 07:58 PM
Reese will worry about Nicks' contract when 2014 come by. Right now, it's about 2013 and the Superbowl next season.

Diamondring
01-26-2013, 08:17 PM
How much the Giants are able to spend?

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 09:01 PM
I agree with everything you're saying here. I'm just thinking that long term, it might not be viable to have two big time receivers making big time money. I'm drawing a blank in thinking of successful teams that spend a lot of money on WR. I think we may have to live with the idea that if Reese signs Vic to an extension (which I'm fine with...love the kid), and Nicks has a big year next year, that we will probably have to let him walk and get nothing in return.

Reese will figure out what to do with Nicks in 2014 when he has to. One season at a time.

RoanokeFan
01-26-2013, 09:02 PM
How much the Giants are able to spend?

Only they know with any certainty

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 09:37 PM
Reese will figure out what to do with Nicks in 2014 when he has to. One season at a time.
I disagree. Cruz - Nicks - JPP. These contracts will all have to be structured in such a way that ensures the cap will not be blown out by such a small number of players. I doubt Reese is trying to work Cruz in without thinking about the other franchise signings he'll have to make in the near future.

NWKEffectElement
01-26-2013, 09:40 PM
my own feelings on this are that Cruz is a definite star in this league and will command big bucks just like any other high producing player and for that reason if I were him I would follow the money trail just like everybody else does. We have to remember that sometimes a players window for the big bucks is only there until the next injury and then it could be closed forever and then everything is what might have been. I want him to stay because we need him but if he walks I hope I will understand...

My thoughts exactly. There would be no hard feelings if he gets a lucrative contract elsewhere they we can't match. I was very encouraged by what I saw from of JJ and Randle. It would suck, but Eli will have these guys ready to play.

CowboysSuck
01-26-2013, 09:59 PM
We will be fine if Cruz is gone. How quickly many of you forget lessons of the past.

If cruz is gone we will still have Nicks, Randle, Hixon, Barden, Jernigan....Bennett. C'mon guys.

Players will step up and some player we dont even know of will catch our eye once again.

AKA: If cruz wants 10 mil/year...to hell with him

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 10:22 PM
We will be fine if Cruz is gone. How quickly many of you forget lessons of the past.If cruz is gone we will still have Nicks, Randle, Hixon, Barden, Jernigan....Bennett. C'mon guys.Players will step up and some player we dont even know of will catch our eye once again. AKA: If cruz wants 10 mil/year...to hell with himWait hold on, so Cruz who has PROVEN to be an elite receiver should go, because HOPEFULLY other guys like Jernigan and Barden who have proven to not play up to expectations are going to step up? I agree that he can't get paid like like a number one receiver, but to say he's easily replaceable and other guys can mimick his success is absolutely absurd.

Roosevelt
01-26-2013, 10:28 PM
I'd rather lose Eli than Cruz. :cool:

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 10:45 PM
We will be fine if Cruz is gone. How quickly many of you forget lessons of the past.

If cruz is gone we will still have Nicks, Randle, Hixon, Barden, Jernigan....Bennett. C'mon guys.

Players will step up and some player we dont even know of will catch our eye once again.

AKA: If cruz wants 10 mil/year...to hell with him
This team couldn't even make do without Manningham, I hate to think how it'd fare without Cruz. He's that ingrained in the offensive gameplan.

Also, Barden and Bennett are both free agents.

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-26-2013, 10:45 PM
it would suck but it is part of the game/business.

Buddy333
01-26-2013, 11:07 PM
Don't over pay him. Wouldn't want to lose him but if he wants to much let him walk. Same goes for Nicks when his turn is up. Just draft well.

GiantRoc
01-26-2013, 11:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/PrJae.jpg

This always reminds me of a "before" picture for Nutri-System. LOL.

GiantRoc
01-26-2013, 11:14 PM
I know it will come down to $. I think we have a bit more depth on offensive skill positions. If he wants too much, he's gone. The money will be used for other areas more in need of upgrading. It would be sad though.

GiantRoc
01-26-2013, 11:20 PM
This team couldn't even make do without Manningham, I hate to think how it'd fare without Cruz. He's that ingrained in the offensive gameplan.

Also, Barden and Bennett are both free agents.

Manningham leaving had nothing to do with this seasons bad play. We had a weak O line,weak LBs and a ton of injuries. He was a nice receiver who imo made more mistakes than good plays. No more than that.
.

uther99
01-26-2013, 11:24 PM
Absolutely correct

JJC7301
01-26-2013, 11:28 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m49ir6sCsK1qbmust.gif
+1, but I'd move on -- WR's are expensive and this team appears to have many holes to fill.

While I think that Nicks is the better WR, I'd keep Cruz because of Nicks seems to be injured too often.

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 11:30 PM
Manningham leaving had nothing to do with this seasons bad play. We had a weak O line,weak LBs and a ton of injuries. He was a nice receiver who imo made more mistakes than good plays. No more than that.
.
He also drew coverage away from Nicks, Cruz and Ballard. Defenses had to respect him; that wasn't the case with Hixon, Barden and Randle. The team cycled #3s all season because none could do what Manningham did.

I'm not sure what sort of impact linebackers have on the offense, but the team's o-line wasn't the greatest in 2011, either.

Drez
01-26-2013, 11:34 PM
He also drew coverage away from Nicks, Cruz and Ballard. Defenses had to respect him; that wasn't the case with Hixon, Barden and Randle. The team cycled #3s all season because none could do what Manningham did.
Sorry, Nicks was the one drawing coverage away leaving things open for MM, Cruz, and Ballard. The problem with this year's offense was much more a hobbled Nicks than not having MM. Not to say that MM didn't perform better than Hixon/Randle, he did, but he wasn't a lynch pin to the offense in any way.

Rudyy
01-26-2013, 11:36 PM
+1, but I'd move on -- WR's are expensive and this team appears to have many holes to fill. While I think that Nicks is the better WR, I'd keep Cruz because of Nicks seems to be injured too often.This and..I would absolutely hate to see my husband in another jersey. This is his home!

Flip Empty
01-26-2013, 11:50 PM
Sorry, Nicks was the one drawing coverage away leaving things open for MM, Cruz, and Ballard. The problem with this year's offense was much more a hobbled Nicks than not having MM. Not to say that MM didn't perform better than Hixon/Randle, he did, but he wasn't a lynch pin to the offense in any way.
I mean, in his role as #3, he could do more than the guys the team had this season. Defenses had to account for his long game - Hixon, Barden and Randle (at least initially) didn't possess one. There was no solid #3 this season, Manningham's worth really wasn't apparent until he was gone. I'm not saying he was integral to the offense's success, but he certainly wasn't detriment to it.
I think Randle progressed slower than the coaches had anticipated. Had he clicked earlier, Manningham's absence wouldn't have been as noticeable.

born blue
01-27-2013, 12:14 AM
I think Randle progressed slower than the coaches had anticipated. Had he clicked earlier, Manningham's absence wouldn't have been as noticeable.

Yes. Because Coughlin always anticipates great things from his rookies and gives them every chance to succeed.

In all seriousness, I think you're right that the NYG needed a #3 WR all year, which was made even worse with Nicks' injuries. Couldn't resist taking a quick shot at Tom's distrust of rookies though...

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 07:02 AM
I disagree. Cruz - Nicks - JPP. These contracts will all have to be structured in such a way that ensures the cap will not be blown out by such a small number of players. I doubt Reese is trying to work Cruz in without thinking about the other franchise signings he'll have to make in the near future.

Nicks isn't a FA until 2014 and he has 20+ free agents to consider re-signing now.. Nothing is impossible, but the CAP space dictates just how much you can get done in one season.

Toadofsteel
01-27-2013, 07:19 AM
Sorry, Nicks was the one drawing coverage away leaving things open for MM, Cruz, and Ballard. The problem with this year's offense was much more a hobbled Nicks than not having MM. Not to say that MM didn't perform better than Hixon/Randle, he did, but he wasn't a lynch pin to the offense in any way.

This. And actually Hixon 2012 outperformed MM 2011. The problem was Nicks being injured. Hixon can play well at #3, but not at #1 or #2. Neither could MM for that matter.

Die-Hard
01-27-2013, 08:28 AM
Nicks isn't a FA until 2014 and he has 20+ free agents to consider re-signing now.. Nothing is impossible, but the CAP space dictates just how much you can get done in one season.

Exactly, RF.

Many people may not know that Eli's cap hit in 2013, as it stands right now, is in the area of $20 mil. Thats just ONE guy. The ceiling for 2013 is projected to be in the area of $120 mil. 20+ free agents as it currently stands, and they're already over by close to $5 mil. Reese can not put all of his eggs in one basket by signing Cruz to a monster, cap busting deal with so many other major needs at other positions. WR's wont mean a thing if the Oline isn't addressed, since I doubt very highly that Eli will be throwing many passes from the ground, at least to his own players.

I'd hate to see him walk, but it IS a business, and I daresay that not one of us would turn down a few million dollars from somewhere else to stay at our current place of employment. Not one. Loyalty doesn't pay the bills.

I'd also like to add that if he left, it would most definitely have a huge impact on this offense. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Barden and Jernigan, who are both UFA's now, have proven absolutely nothing in their time here. Hixon has made a handful of plays here and there, and was a decent return man now and then, but he can hardly be counted on to put up Cruz' type of numbers in a bigger role, regardless of who is throwing him the ball. Add to the fact that we have no clue what Nicks is going to look like next season after his injuries. All of a sudden, signing Cruz sounds like a no-brainer, right? Again, what about the other needs though? Its more complicated than the average Joe believes

Jerry Reese is most certainly in an unenviable position right about now.

Spytheweb
01-27-2013, 10:46 AM
If he goes he won't have the same success as with the Giants. He fits right into the system and QB. Look at Steve Smith as a rookie. Since he left he has not been the same. Cruz will get a big pay day but not the success and after a year or 2 the team will realize he's not worth the money.

NorwoodBlue
01-27-2013, 10:50 AM
Reuben Randle in his limited playing time this year had stats that were actually better than 2011 Mario Manningham. Randle hit for 3 TD, Manningham had 4 playing all 2011. Randle's YPC was 15.7 vs. Manningham's 13.4. Manningham had more raw yardage; but he played a heck of a lot more.

If we'd have lost the NFC championship game on 2011, Manningham would have been run out of town on a rail for dropping a sure touchdown pass late in the game. As it turned out we still won that game, and Manningham became a great player in people's minds for his Super Bowl catch. The reality is that Maningham didn't play to level of his legend.

I'm excited to see the Nicks-Randle combination in 2013. If Cruz is there, all the better; but I have a feeling that Reuben Randle may be a bright enough star in the Giants future that they may have to pass on Cruz if the money gets too high.

Die-Hard
01-27-2013, 11:31 AM
If he goes he won't have the same success as with the Giants. He fits right into the system and QB. Look at Steve Smith as a rookie. Since he left he has not been the same. Cruz will get a big pay day but not the success and after a year or 2 the team will realize he's not worth the money.

You have no way of knowing this. The guy obviously has the talent, so what makes you think he cant succeed anywhere else? He has an incredible knack of getting open, and has made some very tough catches in some very tricky spots. That kind of thing cant be taught.

BROADWAYSTORM
01-27-2013, 12:02 PM
It simply cannot happen. We would survive but I see no reason why we wouldn't sign him. We have overpaid guys like Canty and Rolle who I would gladly cut way before I said I could not resign Cruz for whatever the hell he wanted. Same with Nicks.

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 12:03 PM
You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Barden and Jernigan, who are both UFA's now, have proven absolutely nothing in their time here.

Jernigan is not a free agent until 2015...he signed a 4 year deal in 2011. He just finished his second season, and the first he barely haad any ota's and a shortened training camp. I think this kid could help the team, he just hasn't had much of a chance to play with a very good Cruz in front of him at the slot position.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 12:14 PM
Jernigan is not a free agent until 2015...he signed a 4 year deal in 2011. He just finished his second season, and the first he barely haad any ota's and a shortened training camp. I think this kid could help the team, he just hasn't had much of a chance to play with a very good Cruz in front of him at the slot position.What has Jernigan showed you so far to make you think so?

Die-Hard
01-27-2013, 12:17 PM
Jernigan is not a free agent until 2015...he signed a 4 year deal in 2011. He just finished his second season, and the first he barely haad any ota's and a shortened training camp. I think this kid could help the team, he just hasn't had much of a chance to play with a very good Cruz in front of him at the slot position.

I stand corrected. However, what I have seen of him, limited or not, has not impressed me. The guy is a healthy scratch 90% of the time, and he couldn't even beat out Ramses Barden on a few occasions. You may be right in that with a chance, he could be something worthwhile as a WR, but I have yet to see even a slight glimpse of it.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 12:25 PM
Jernigan is not a free agent until 2015...he signed a 4 year deal in 2011. He just finished his second season, and the first he barely haad any ota's and a shortened training camp. I think this kid could help the team, he just hasn't had much of a chance to play with a very good Cruz in front of him at the slot position.

It hasn't happened yet with Jernigan, although it could in the future. There is no one on our roster who can replace Cruz and bringing someone in starts the Eli chemistry clock at 00. Better to sign him than any of the alternatives.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 12:27 PM
Reuben Randle in his limited playing time this year had stats that were actually better than 2011 Mario Manningham. Randle hit for 3 TD, Manningham had 4 playing all 2011. Randle's YPC was 15.7 vs. Manningham's 13.4. Manningham had more raw yardage; but he played a heck of a lot more.

If we'd have lost the NFC championship game on 2011, Manningham would have been run out of town on a rail for dropping a sure touchdown pass late in the game. As it turned out we still won that game, and Manningham became a great player in people's minds for his Super Bowl catch. The reality is that Maningham didn't play to level of his legend.

I'm excited to see the Nicks-Randle combination in 2013. If Cruz is there, all the better; but I have a feeling that Reuben Randle may be a bright enough star in the Giants future that they may have to pass on Cruz if the money gets too high.

Randle hasn't shown enough to think he can replace Cruz just yet.

Ruttiger711
01-27-2013, 12:44 PM
If he goes he won't have the same success as with the Giants. He fits right into the system and QB. Look at Steve Smith as a rookie. Since he left he has not been the same. Cruz will get a big pay day but not the success and after a year or 2 the team will realize he's not worth the money.Crabtree, Steve Smith, Eric Decker, Julio Jones, Lance Moore, Steve Johnson. These are all receivers within 100 yards higher or lower then Cruz's output this year.

You don't think he could go to these respective teams and do the same if not better than these guys?Say for instance the Pats decide to part ways w Welker and fill his slot with Cruz. You don't think he'd match the output he had with the Giants?

I think Cruz can go anywhere and put up about 1,000 yards with a middling qb.

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 12:52 PM
What has Jernigan showed you so far to make you think so?

not much as far as a WR YET...but i think that has to do with the fact he barely gets any playing time. He was drafted to play the slot, not knowing what we had in Cruz at the time. I think he will be a pretty good player when given the chance, It's just my opinion. He fast as hell, and hes exciting with the ball in his hands. I know this is the NFL, but go watch some of his college tape

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 12:53 PM
There is no one on our roster who can replace Cruz and bringing someone in starts the Eli chemistry clock at 00. Better to sign him than any of the alternatives.

completely agree with you, I'm not saying to not sign Cruz, I think the kid is awesome

nycisgreat
01-27-2013, 01:24 PM
I hope this doesn't happen because he is an important part of the future but stranger things have happened and what will your feelings be if Reese is forced to lose him...

We've done plenty time before, so it wouldn't surprise me.

bigblue58
01-27-2013, 01:34 PM
I hope this doesn't happen because he is an important part of the future but stranger things have happened and what will your feelings be if Reese is forced to lose him...

If the Giants lose Cruz, Reese deserves to be condemned to listening to Rex Ryan press conferences endlessly through headphones glued to his ears for eternity!
And I'm telling you right now, they're not going to be able to keep both Cruz AND Nicks.

Giantslb66
01-27-2013, 01:40 PM
Thanks for everything Victor, we will miss .....now its Reuben Randle time!

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 01:43 PM
not much as far as a WR YET...but i think that has to do with the fact he barely gets any playing time. He was drafted to play the slot, not knowing what we had in Cruz at the time. I think he will be a pretty good player when given the chance, It's just my opinion. He fast as hell, and hes exciting with the ball in his hands. I know this is the NFL, but go watch some of his college tapeI understand what you're saying, but I want to see what he's done in the NFL, not in college.

CowboysSuck
01-27-2013, 01:48 PM
Wait hold on, so Cruz who has PROVEN to be an elite receiver should go, because HOPEFULLY other guys like Jernigan and Barden who have proven to not play up to expectations are going to step up? I agree that he can't get paid like like a number one receiver, but to say he's easily replaceable and other guys can mimick his success is absolutely absurd.

Not to worry, my Crystal Ball predicts Cruz is a Giants next season.

I thought I would just take a sec. to remind everyone that Cruz is not worth 10mil/year. And if push comes t shove, we can be a productive offense without him.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 01:51 PM
Not to worry, my Crystal Ball predicts Cruz is a Giants next season.

I thought I would just take a sec. to remind everyone that Cruz is not worth 10mil/year. And if push comes t shove, we can be a productive offense without him.I think he's worth it, but we can't pay him that much. SOOOO hopefully he understands and him and Reese can negotiate.

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 01:56 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I want to see what he's done in the NFL, not in college.

I agree with that, but he can't get on the field with a healthy and very good Cruz in front of him. He's not gonna play out wide like Hakeem, Randle, Barden, Hixon..he is a slot reciever. He was getting worked into the offense a little more towards the end of the year in 4 WR sets

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 01:57 PM
I'm not going to pull up his stats because I'm sure most of you know how elite his numbers are.
I've seen many people say that Jernigan or Barden will step up in his place..what? In what way? I barely see Jernigan play and Barden played one good game out of the four years he's been here.

I understand giving guys a chance to play and step up, but to just assume that they can perform at the same level Cruz has performed is absurd.

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 01:57 PM
If the Giants lose Cruz, Reese deserves to be condemned to listening to Rex Ryan press conferences endlessly through headphones glued to his ears for eternity!
And I'm telling you right now, they're not going to be able to keep both Cruz AND Nicks.What you have said makes sense. Yet they should be able to keep both cause both players help each other out . Usualy, I say that there should be at least 3 good receivers on the field at the same time so we have to look at the second and third options. More good receivers on the field at the same time would be appreciated but at least 3 good receivers on the field at the same time is the right amount every offense should have so that the qb has options. Cruz has weakness and he should know this. He also should think about his team and teamates.

Jerry Rice was a great receiver but look at what else he had on the field with him in the days of the 49ers. He had about 2 other receivers able to get open. Cruz had a down year and could have had more yards and tds if Nicks was healthy. Look at the game against the Bucs. Yet if the Giants are unable to take care of the other receivers, Cruz is going to do little way less if he gets a good paycheck if the Giants are unable to replace the other receivers.

If he leaves for more money and the Giants don't have enough to keep him, then Cruz is about money more than the team. That may not be a bad thing and that is what he wanted if he does leave.

CowboysSuck
01-27-2013, 01:59 PM
I think he's worth it, but we can't pay him that much. SOOOO hopefully he understands and him and Reese can negotiate.

Thats where we differ. Cruz is not worth top dollar. (Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson, Calvin Johnson...etc.)

I'd pay Cruz realistically somewhere around 6-7mil/year regardless of the structure. He's just not big enough of a guy (height and weight) to be "that type" of elite receiver.

CowboysSuck
01-27-2013, 02:01 PM
He's not easily replaceable.

It just hurts a bit less to assume these other guys can step up (if indeed Cruz decides to walk).

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:02 PM
Thats where we differ. Cruz is not worth top dollar. (Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson, Calvin Johnson...etc.)

I'd pay Cruz realistically somewhere around 6-7mil/year regardless of the structure. He's just not big enough of a guy (height and weight) to be "that type" of elite receiver.What does height have to do with posting elite numbers? Yes, he has elite numbers.
His two seasons combined are better than A.J. Green's two seasons, whom by the way is 6'4.

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 02:03 PM
Say that Giants gave him a lot of money and do not have enough money to keep other talent, then is Cruz worth it? Will he stil perform at a high level?

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:05 PM
Say that Giants gave him a lot of money and do not have enough money to keep other talent, then is Cruz worth it? Will he stil perform at a high level?I highly doubt the Giants will give him too much money. They aren't stupid.

I know our cap situation and understand that Cruz can't get paid top money (hopefully he doesn't ask for that much). I'm talking about the "We got Rueben Randle, let Cruz walk!!".

nhpgiantsfan
01-27-2013, 02:07 PM
I think a lot of people think that in the Giants system Eli can succeed with whoever is in the slot. First Steve Smith and now Cruz. Both guys didn't show up with pro bowl expectations. I'm not saying that these people are right, but they may not be wrong either.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:10 PM
I think a lot of people think that in the Giants system Eli can succeed with whoever is in the slot. First Steve Smith and now Cruz. Both guys didn't show up with pro bowl expectations. I'm not saying that these people are right, but they may not be wrong either.I think the problem I'm having is that I haven't seen Jernigan or Barden make enough noise to be considered a replacement for Cruz.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 02:10 PM
Say that Giants gave him a lot of money and do not have enough money to keep other talent, then is Cruz worth it? Will he stil perform at a high level?

But that's not the OP's question. He's/she's right--in anticipation of the possibility (but not the probability ) of Cruz going elsewhere for more money, there are some on this board who are trying to justify the loss by undermining Cruz's talent and contributions to Giants offense this past season. Ridiculous arguments, but there you are. And the reason for Rudyy's thread.

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 02:11 PM
I highly doubt the Giants will give him too much money. They aren't stupid.

I know our cap situation and understand that Cruz can't get paid top money (hopefully he doesn't ask for that much). I'm talking about the "We got Rueben Randle, let Cruz walk!!".Only if he wants too much money that the Giants can't contain players or get new talent. Yes Cruz can be replace but the replacement might be greater or less. Yet more talent on the field at the same time even if not great is better than one man.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:13 PM
But that's not the OP's question. He's/she's right--in anticipation of the possibility (but not the probability ) of Cruz going elsewhere for more money, there are some on this board who are trying to justify the loss by undermining Cruz's talent and contributions to Giants offense this past season. Ridiculous arguments, but there you are. And the reason for Rudyy's thread.Very well put.

BigBlue1971
01-27-2013, 02:14 PM
i would much rather have Cruz than try to replace him! i think Reese will sign him to a fair contract!

Barden has never shown anything so its not conceivable he will step up to Cruzs level!

noone knows if Jernigan will break out in 2013 or not but even if he does he wont approach Cruz numbers imo!

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:15 PM
Only if he wants too much money that the Giants can't contain players or get new talent. Yes Cruz can be replace but the replacement might be greater or less. Yet more talent on the field at the same time even if not great is better than one man.If Cruz is asking for more than we can give him, then I can kind of see him looking elsewhere. I don't think that will happen (I hope it doesn't) but the NFL is a business, I get it.

TomCat_FIN
01-27-2013, 02:16 PM
Cruz might be "just" a slot receiver, but where does it say a team can't use a guy like him. Letting him go would be a big mistake.

drewz
01-27-2013, 02:17 PM
Meh.. People thought Steve Smith was irreplaceable... It's a system offense.. You can plug players in and out as long as you have the talent

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:20 PM
Meh.. People thought Steve Smith was irreplaceable... It's a system offense.. You can plug players in and out as long as you have the talentSo Cruz is only good because of the system he plays in?

B-Red22
01-27-2013, 02:25 PM
Who said he was easily replaceable?

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 02:26 PM
Who said he was easily replaceable?I did.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:27 PM
Who said he was easily replaceable?Some people have suggested that he's a system player and can be replaced with X player.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:30 PM
Thats where we differ. Cruz is not worth top dollar. (Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson, Calvin Johnson...etc.)

I'd pay Cruz realistically somewhere around 6-7mil/year regardless of the structure. He's just not big enough of a guy (height and weight) to be "that type" of elite receiver.

He may not be elite, but he had back to back 1,000 yard seasons in his first two playing years. Size isn't indicative of anything, ask Barden

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 02:30 PM
Individually? Absolutely not. I really don't see anyone else on the roster who is going to post 1000+ yards all by themselves whether it's receiving or rushing.

In a group effort? Probably. Eli will just have to spread the ball to more targets in the offense for the passing game and we'll need better production from the run game. We might not salvage all of Cruz's production but we would spread around at least 75% of it around imo.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:31 PM
He's not easily replaceable.

It just hurts a bit less to assume these other guys can step up (if indeed Cruz decides to walk).

Cruz won't walk, he will be sent away

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
Meh.. People thought Steve Smith was irreplaceable... It's a system offense.. You can plug players in and out as long as you have the talent

Who else on the team has Cruz's talent?

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
Who said he was easily replaceable?

A number of people

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:34 PM
Who else on the team has Cruz's talent?​RUEBEN RANDLE, JERNIGAN, AND BARDEN BECAUSE HE'S TALL.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:36 PM
​RUEBEN RANDLE, JERNIGAN, AND BARDEN BECAUSE HE'S TALL.

Some just like to take the shovel against the tide approach, others don't like other people's success, and still others just have no clue.

As soon as Cruz does or doesn't have a deal here, we will be entertained by how stupid Reese was whichever way this goes.

nhpgiantsfan
01-27-2013, 02:39 PM
Meh.. People thought Steve Smith was irreplaceable... It's a system offense.. You can plug players in and out as long as you have the talent

I def think that there is some truth to this but it's hard to think he put together back to back season like that just because of our system.

TomCat_FIN
01-27-2013, 02:40 PM
In theory EVERY player is replaceable. JPP can be replaced, Eli can be replaced, Nicks could be replaced etc.

But just because someone could be replaced, doesn't mean it would be a wise move. Cruz has found a comfort zone with the Giants, he has develop great chemistry with the QB and is an ultimate professional.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:41 PM
Posting back to back 1,000 yard seasons is not easy. I don't care if you think if he's a system player or not, Cruz is an important piece to this offense and jump started our 2011 Super Bowl run.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 02:42 PM
I'm not going to pull up his stats because I'm sure most of you know how elite his numbers are.
I've seen many people say that Jernigan or Barden will step up in his place..what? In what way? I barely see Jernigan play and Barden played one good game out of the four years he's been here.

I understand giving guys a chance to play and step up, but to just assume that they can perform at the same level Cruz has performed is absurd.

Cause he's a JOHN BROWN slot receiver who wants Top receiver money, and if he didn't want top receiver money or haven't stated it then we would not be having this debate.

People are so sentimental over players sheesh...

gmen46
01-27-2013, 02:42 PM
I'm really not concerned that Cruz will play somewhere else next year (or for several years after).

He's brought much, much more to the Giants organization as a whole in the past 2 seasons than Smith, Boss, Jacobs ever did, yet comparisons to the FA experiences of those 3 continue to come up in all these Cruz threads the past month.

He adds to the "face of the franchise" in ways that those 3 never did, thus bringing more to the consideration than mere stats (as superior as they've been).

So many seem to assume Cruz will be asking for "Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald-like" compensation, which Cruz has never even hinted at, and which is ****ing ridiculous to assume.

Just think back over the past 10 years or so, and see if anyone can come up with an instance of Giants not making a very competitive--even an outright aggressive--bid to retain a key player considered to be crucial to continued Giants success. And no, Smith, Jacobs, Boss, Ross, an aging Osi,,even Cofield, do not qualify as being in the same discussion as Cruz in this case.

While I agree that Cruz is not worth a C Johnson or Fitzgerald contract, I also say this is a specious comparison--a straw argument--because nowhere except on this board has that possibility ever been raised.

Cruz will be extended with the Giants this off season. Nicks is an entirely separate decision, and does not have to be dealt with for another year. His 2013 season--and the Giants' 2013 season-- will go a long way to determining how that negotiation pans out.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:43 PM
Cause he's a JOHN BROWN slot receiver who wants Top receiver money, and if he didn't want top receiver money or haven't stated it then we would not be having this debate.

People are so sentimental over players sheesh...Please provide evidence where he said (not some beat writer) that he wants top dollar money. Thanks.

TCHOF
01-27-2013, 02:45 PM
not much as far as a WR YET...but i think that has to do with the fact he barely gets any playing time. He was drafted to play the slot, not knowing what we had in Cruz at the time. I think he will be a pretty good player when given the chance, It's just my opinion. He fast as hell, and hes exciting with the ball in his hands. I know this is the NFL, but go watch some of his college tape

Exactly the same thing that people uses to say about Sinorice Moss . . . .exactly

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 02:45 PM
Posting back to back 1,000 yard seasons is not easy. I don't care if you think if he's a system player or not, Cruz is an important piece to this offense and jump started our 2011 Super Bowl run.

I think the more realistic question is if 3 or 4 other offensive players could pick up the slack left behind by Cruz if he left. It's not like Randle is going to add 1k yards out of thin air next year or Wilson will add 1k on top of whatever he does in 2013 but 250 yards each for 4 others isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:48 PM
I think the more realistic question is if 3 or 4 other offensive players could pick up the slack left behind by Cruz if he left. It's not like Randle is going to add 1k yards out of thin air next year or Wilson will add 1k on top of whatever he does in 2013 but 250 yards each for 4 others isn't out of the realm of possibility.My issue is the undermining of Cruz's skills, and automatically thinking that whoever is on the bench can do the exact same thing. Maybe not post 1,000 yards because that's a stretch, but really take over and make the plays and contribute the way Cruz has.

ny06
01-27-2013, 02:48 PM
I feel the Giants will do everything in there power to keep Cruz long term. If it doesn't happen the Giants will have to move foward. The Eagles moved foward after losing 31 year old Reggie White.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 02:49 PM
In our system if you're playing the 1 role, like nicks, plax, or steve smith when he went to the pro bowl, you're going to put up 1000 yards with eli under center. However putting up numbers like that in the slot takes a special type of skill. The only other slot guys capable of this that i know of is welker and Antonio brown. in my opinion cruz is the best slot receiver in the NFL. I cant see us replacing him that easily.

nhpgiantsfan
01-27-2013, 02:50 PM
Please provide evidence where he said (not some beat writer) that he wants top dollar money. Thanks.

If the deal he was seeking was reasonable, it probably would've been signed by now. Remember the two sides were talking during the season and couldn't work out a deal. I'm sure they will work it out, but obviously something was holding it up.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:52 PM
If the deal he was seeking was reasonable, it probably would've been signed by now. Remember the two sides were talking during the season and couldn't work out a deal. I'm sure they will work it out, but obviously something was holding it up.We have cap issues going on, that's probably what the hold up is about.

TomCat_FIN
01-27-2013, 02:56 PM
I don't worry about Cap issues. The organization has people to worry about the salary cap. I only worry about a player's performance and how he might or might not fit in the team. And when it comes to Cruz, I don't see why they shouldn't try to resign him, unless they plan on pulling a rabbit out of the hat and sign someone, who is better than Cruz. But that's not likely.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 02:56 PM
My issue is the undermining of Cruz's skills, and automatically thinking that whoever is on the bench can do the exact same thing. Maybe not post 1,000 yards because that's a stretch, but really take over and make the plays and contribute the way Cruz has.

No I agree with you that no one on the roster really offers what Cruz does at the moment. Jernigan is probably the closest thing but he's more of a Randall Cobb type than a slot receiver in the mold of Cruz. I just think the offense could work as a collective unit to pick up the majority of the slack and it happens all the time in football when a player goes down or a superstar moves on.

jomo
01-27-2013, 02:56 PM
They don't.

GTGiantsFan
01-27-2013, 02:57 PM
97/1350/11 is better than Cruz, and he's the only option on the Bengals.
(AJ Green's stats last year)

jomo
01-27-2013, 02:57 PM
He won't.

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 02:57 PM
Exactly the same thing that people uses to say about Sinorice Moss . . . .exactly was waiting for that...seems like the cool thing to do to compare every Giants receiver to Sinorice Moss. Sinorice was here for what 5 or 6 years? This kid has been here for 2 and has Victor Cruz of all people playing in front of him. You guys don't realize all Wr's are not interchangeable...your not gonna play Hakeem or Barden or Randle in the slot...just as ur not gonna play Jernigan out wide. Only time will tell...

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 02:57 PM
They don't.You'd be surprised.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 02:58 PM
If the deal he was seeking was reasonable, it probably would've been signed by now. Remember the two sides were talking during the season and couldn't work out a deal. I'm sure they will work it out, but obviously something was holding it up.

All they did during the season was set up the structure for the deal. Part of the season end evaluation is determining what the going rate is for every position and talent level. Once they have that, they will start negotiating dollars. Neither side will get everything it wants, but the team believes it can get back into the playoff hunt in 2013 and in order to do that, they need to keep the play makers they have.

They can do that by tagging Cruz (maybe) but then you aren't going to have Nicks and Cruz in 2014 unless the CAP increases significantly.

DownWitJPP
01-27-2013, 03:02 PM
I haven't seen anyone say that they think Cruz is easily replaceable. He is a heck of a talent and would be greatly missed if he went elsewhere...with that being said if he does go to another team we will find another option just like this team always does. People thought it was the end of the world when Steve Smith went to the Eagles and look what happened...we replaced him with an up and coming slot receiver who turned out to be better than he ever was. One player does not make or break a team inless you are talking about a franchise QB.

jomo
01-27-2013, 03:03 PM
You'd be surprised.It depends on who "they" are. For me "they" are the people who really understand the game. I should have specified but I was trying to reply to 10 threads in a row with 3 or fewer words. lol sometimes I need to break the monotony with something silly like that.

Toadofsteel
01-27-2013, 03:09 PM
If we have to give up Cruz to ensure Beatty stays and we get a competent O-line, then yes, I do believe that the 1000 yard dropoff in production could be made up spread across receivers. Remember that Cruz has gotten the production he has with the absolute crappiest O-line the Giants have ever had these past 2 years. With an O-line worth a damn and Eli being able to focus more on finding the open receiver than worrying about the pass rush all the time, he'd be able to be a lot more lethal with a lot less in the way of weaponry...

That said, I hope Cruz stays.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:12 PM
Please provide evidence where he said (not some beat writer) that he wants top dollar money. Thanks.

If he doesn't want that huge contract wouldn't he have signed one right now, duh!
It's not like contract talks just started yesterday this has been going on since during the season.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:13 PM
If he doesn't want that huge contract wouldn't he have signed one right now, duh!
It's not like contract talks just started yesterday this has been going on since during the season.That's not how it works..

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:18 PM
That's not how it works..
It's obvious he wants more money than the Giants are willing to pay him. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate.

you know how it works? what are you Cruz's agent? tell him im still waiting on a Retweet lol.

Contract talks have been ongoing, he got offers, I am sure he probably rejected those offers cause they were not up to par with the going rate in the league for a 2 time 1000 yard receiver, I love cruz like any other but you have to chose when it comes to these situations cap room for the betterment of the team or the player for the betterment of the JOHN BROWN team.

you are just to attached missy

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 03:18 PM
If he doesn't want that huge contract wouldn't he have signed one right now, duh!
It's not like contract talks just started yesterday this has been going on since during the season.

Reese doesn't jump, he navigates. He's dealing with 20+ in-house free agents. The only easy ones are the ERFA's who have to take or leave vet minimum and if they leave it, they exit the NFL.

No contract is done in a vacuum when CAP space is tight, which it always is for us. Reese has to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and make Cruz the best offer he can. Cruz doesn't seem to me to be one to make outlandish demands. He knows what he has in the team, his roots and other business ventures are local.

There are no guarantees in life, but I'd be surprised if Reese and Cruz don't agree on a long term deal.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:20 PM
If we have to give up Cruz to ensure Beatty stays and we get a competent O-line, then yes, I do believe that the 1000 yard dropoff in production could be made up spread across receivers. Remember that Cruz has gotten the production he has with the absolute crappiest O-line the Giants have ever had these past 2 years. With an O-line worth a damn and Eli being able to focus more on finding the open receiver than worrying about the pass rush all the time, he'd be able to be a lot more lethal with a lot less in the way of weaponry...

That said, I hope Cruz stays.

Ding! logic prevails

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 03:21 PM
If we have to give up Cruz to ensure Beatty stays and we get a competent O-line, then yes, I do believe that the 1000 yard dropoff in production could be made up spread across receivers. Remember that Cruz has gotten the production he has with the absolute crappiest O-line the Giants have ever had these past 2 years. With an O-line worth a damn and Eli being able to focus more on finding the open receiver than worrying about the pass rush all the time, he'd be able to be a lot more lethal with a lot less in the way of weaponry...

That said, I hope Cruz stays.

Beatty really is the underrated #1 priority in my opinion too. LT is arguably the 3rd most important position in today's league (you can look at how often they are drafted in the 1st round in the modern NFL). With the exception of some harmful holding penalties, the guy played at a top 5 level and also has really nice run blocking for a LT. If we lose him, we'd pretty much be forced to take one in the 1st this year unless we want to go back to the Diehl saga.

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 03:22 PM
Reese doesn't jump, he navigates. He's dealing with 20+ in-house free agents. The only easy ones are the ERFA's who have to take or leave vet minimum and if they leave it, they exit the NFL.

No contract is done in a vacuum when CAP space is tight, which it always is for us. Reese has to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and make Cruz the best offer he can. Cruz doesn't seem to me to be one to make outlandish demands. He knows what he has in the team, his roots and other business ventures are local.

There are no guarantees in life, but I'd be surprised if Reese and Cruz don't agree on a long term deal.Every person is not the same and Reese maybe figured it out already. He has got to look at the players down the line cause time is going to pass and more contracts will need to be made or players let go if there is no agreement.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:23 PM
Reese doesn't jump, he navigates. He's dealing with 20+ in-house free agents. The only easy ones are the ERFA's who have to take or leave vet minimum and if they leave it, they exit the NFL.

No contract is done in a vacuum when CAP space is tight, which it always is for us. Reese has to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and make Cruz the best offer he can. Cruz doesn't seem to me to be one to make outlandish demands. He knows what he has in the team, his roots and other business ventures are local.

There are no guarantees in life, but I'd be surprised if Reese and Cruz don't agree on a long term deal.

I would be surprised to, but you are not going to tell me based off interview a smile and some salsa dances; You know off merit cruz is not that type of guy to want a big pay day. frankly we do not know what cruz is aking for right, but a organizational friendly contract is not that cause its common sense, that's the first offer put on the table, and Cruz would of signed that by now. its logical to deduct that and then reason that he wants more, whats more? is the question and it's only fair to say more is alot.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:24 PM
It's obvious he wants more money than the Giants are willing to pay him. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate.

you know how it works? what are you Cruz's agent? tell him im still waiting on a Retweet lol.

Contract talks have been ongoing, he got offers, I am sure he probably rejected those offers cause they were not up to par with the going rate in the league for a 2 time 1000 yard receiver, I love cruz like any other but you have to chose when it comes to these situations cap room for the betterment of the team or the player for the betterment of the JOHN BROWN team.

you are just to attached missyThis thread has nothing to do with contract talks.
This has to do with his skill set and other players replicating his success.
And your last sentence is silly.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
It's obvious he wants more money than the Giants are willing to pay him. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate.

you know how it works? what are you Cruz's agent? tell him im still waiting on a Retweet lol.

Contract talks have been ongoing, he got offers, I am sure he probably rejected those offers cause they were not up to par with the going rate in the league for a 2 time 1000 yard receiver, I love cruz like any other but you have to chose when it comes to these situations cap room for the betterment of the team or the player for the betterment of the JOHN BROWN team.

you are just to attached missy

I would be very surprised if Reese has already made an offer. He has a lot of work to do and no one else can offer Cruz a dime until March 12th.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
RRS ( Reese the restructure specialist )

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
Every person is not the same and Reese maybe figured it out already. He has got to look at the players down the line cause time is going to pass and more contracts will need to be made or players let go if there is no agreement.If anything, certain players need to be cut who are eating away at the cap.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:29 PM
This thread has nothing to do with contract talks.
This has to do with his skill set and other players replicating his success.
And your last sentence is silly.

hmmmm.... what?
that's all i have been reading about on this thread is contract related stuff. should we pay him or not, that's JOHN BROWN contract talk missy!
I told you before he is alot receiver that probably feel he deserves #1 receiver money, he probably does just not here.
and my last sentence is not silly you have a mini crush on cruz, highlight by your many posts of the player, your a chick and your JOHN BROWN avatar :)
plus you said you did in one of my post.

Imgrate
01-27-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm really not concerned that Cruz will play somewhere else next year (or for several years after). He's brought much, much more to the Giants organization as a whole in the past 2 seasons than Smith, Boss, Jacobs ever did, yet comparisons to the FA experiences of those 3 continue to come up in all these Cruz threads the past month.He adds to the "face of the franchise" in ways that those 3 never did, thus bringing more to the consideration than mere stats (as superior as they've been).So many seem to assume Cruz will be asking for "Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald-like" compensation, which Cruz has never even hinted at, and which is ****ing ridiculous to assume.Just think back over the past 10 years or so, and see if anyone can come up with an instance of Giants not making a very competitive--even an outright aggressive--bid to retain a key player considered to be crucial to continued Giants success. And no, Smith, Jacobs, Boss, Ross, an aging Osi,,even Cofield, do not qualify as being in the same discussion as Cruz in this case.While I agree that Cruz is not worth a C Johnson or Fitzgerald contract, I also say this is a specious comparison--a straw argument--because nowhere except on this board has that possibility ever been raised.Cruz will be extended with the Giants this off season. Nicks is an entirely separate decision, and does not have to be dealt with for another year. His 2013 season--and the Giants' 2013 season-- will go a long way to determining how that negotiation pans out.Cruz doesnt have to be dealt with longterm either until next year...we can tender him.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:30 PM
hmmmm.... what?
that's all i have been reading about on this thread is contract related stuff. should we pay him or not, that's JOHN BROWN contract talk missy!
I told you before he is alot receiver that probably feel he deserves #1 receiver money, he probably does just not here.
and my last sentence is not silly you have a mini crush on cruz, highlight by your many posts of the player, your a chick and your JOHN BROWN avatar :)
plus you said you did in one of my post.The OP had nothing to do with paying him.
And it is silly, because it has nothing to do with this post lol.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:31 PM
I would be very surprised if Reese has already made an offer. He has a lot of work to do and no one else can offer Cruz a dime until March 12th.

Yeah? just like I was surprised of Reese's verbal agreement to Osi during the season. It's not outside of the realm that GM's try to secure assets before the time to do so, Cruz is a free agent, restricted sure but it would behoove reese to get the upper hand on the bidding before the sharks enter the water. come on RF we bonded in a PM don't be this naive.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 03:31 PM
I would be surprised to, but you are not going to tell me based off interview a smile and some salsa dances; You know off merit cruz is not that type of guy to want a big pay day. frankly we do not know what cruz is aking for right, but a organizational friendly contract is not that cause its common sense, that's the first offer put on the table, and Cruz would of signed that by now. its logical to deduct that and then reason that he wants more, whats more? is the question and it's only fair to say more is alot.

He clearly wants and deserves a big pay day, no one is arguing that point. A fair contract is one both sides can live with, that's Reese's goal. It may or may not work out, but as I've said before, I would really be surprised if Reese has made a money offer this early. Donig that would make every other free agent up their asking price. All that does is make Reese's job a little more difficult.

They are reportedly ready to sign Pascoe at something close to vet minimum. He needs to do as much of that as he can before publicly unloading a boat load of cash on Cruz. Tactics are sometimes more important than contract language and dollars.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 03:33 PM
Yeah? just like I was surprised of Reese's verbal agreement to Osi during the season. It's not outside of the realm that GM's try to secure assets before the time to do so, Cruz is a free agent, restricted sure but it would behoove reese to get the upper hand on the bidding before the sharks enter the water. come on RF we bonded in a PM don't be this naive.

Reese has 45 days to make his first offer. Once that's done, the rest happens very quickly.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:33 PM
The OP had nothing to do with paying him.
And it is silly, because it has nothing to do with this post lol.

you asked can i provide link to where Cruz said he deserves this? right
I responded right ?
you and others responded in line with that post about contract talks right?
so now like some posts before me were talking about contract talks?
Its a conversation sweetheart it evolves, keep up.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:33 PM
I haven't seen anyone say that they think Cruz is easily replaceable. He is a heck of a talent and would be greatly missed if he went elsewhere...with that being said if he does go to another team we will find another option just like this team always does. People thought it was the end of the world when Steve Smith went to the Eagles and look what happened...we replaced him with an up and coming slot receiver who turned out to be better than he ever was. One player does not make or break a team inless you are talking about a franchise QB.That's fair, and I don't think losing Cruz would send the Giants in a 10 year offensive slump or anything.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:35 PM
If Cruz is asking for more than we can give him, then I can kind of see him looking elsewhere. I don't think that will happen (I hope it doesn't) but the NFL is a business, I get it.

this is you right?
case rested

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:35 PM
you asked can i provide link to where Cruz said he deserves this? right
I responded right ?
you and others responded in line with that post about contract talks right?
so now like some posts before me were talking about contract talks?
Its a conversation sweetheart it evolves, keep up.I'm just saying the point of this post wasn't about contract negotiations.
Sure it may have evolved into ludicrous discussion as most threads on here do.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:37 PM
this is you right?
case restedI believe that says "Rudyy" at the top, yes that is me.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 03:38 PM
I believe that says "Rudyy" at the top, yes that is me.
nice comeback

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 03:38 PM
Cruz doesnt have to be dealt with longterm either until next year...we can tender him.

True, but that makes it almost a certainty that Nicks or Cruz won't be here after 2013 due to CAP restrictions

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 03:41 PM
97/1350/11 is better than Cruz, and he's the only option on the Bengals.
(AJ Green's stats last year)I said the first two years.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 03:43 PM
No I agree with you that no one on the roster really offers what Cruz does at the moment. Jernigan is probably the closest thing but he's more of a Randall Cobb type than a slot receiver in the mold of Cruz. I just think the offense could work as a collective unit to pick up the majority of the slack and it happens all the time in football when a player goes down or a superstar moves on.

You mean like how we saw about 1000 less receiving yards in 2012 vs 2011 when Nicks missed 3 games and under performed for several games after returning? These other receivers had their chances--many chances. What we saw was a good game from Randle, a good game from Barden, a good game from Hixon. As #3 and #4 receivers, they all had good moments intermittantly throughout the season, with Hixon being the most consistent when called upon.

But none of them showed any justification for this ridiculous argument that the Giants "system" will compensate for a potential loss of Cruz.

What makes this argument especially rich is that there have been so many, many threads here vilifying Gilbride--the coach most responsible for Giants' offensive "system" that would compensate for a loss of Cruz. YIKES!!

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 03:52 PM
. What we saw was a good game from Randle, a good game from Barden, a good game from Hixon. As #3 and #4 receivers, they all had good moments intermittantly throughout the season, with Hixon being the most consistent when called upon.

!

what does that tell you? They shouldnt have let nicks play injured because when he sat out guys like randel and barden stepped up.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 03:55 PM
You mean like how we saw about 1000 less receiving yards in 2012 vs 2011 when Nicks missed 3 games and under performed for several games after returning? These other receivers had their chances--many chances. What we saw was a good game from Randle, a good game from Barden, a good game from Hixon. As #3 and #4 receivers, they all had good moments intermittantly throughout the season, with Hixon being the most consistent when called upon.

But none of them showed any justification for this ridiculous argument that the Giants "system" will compensate for a potential loss of Cruz.

What makes this argument especially rich is that there have been so many, many threads here vilifying Gilbride--the coach most responsible for Giants' offensive "system" that would compensate for a loss of Cruz. YIKES!!

462 of those lost 1000 yards were placed into the run game instead this year and that doesn't even factor into possible ToP differences between the seasons and the argument that we relied too much upon a hobbled Nicks and Bradshaw when it was obvious they shouldn't have even played. There were games Nicks struggled to make any separation because of his knee and foot injuries. The situation was definitely salvageable.

drewz
01-27-2013, 04:17 PM
So Cruz is only good because of the system he plays in?

No, Cruz is a good receiver that BENEFITS from the system he's in. There were people saying he should be making top 5 WR money like Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald.. that is INSANE


Who else on the team has Cruz's talent?

Dominek Hixon is one, Rueben Randle has the talent as well.


In theory EVERY player is replaceable. JPP can be replaced, Eli can be replaced, Nicks could be replaced etc.

But just because someone could be replaced, doesn't mean it would be a wise move. Cruz has found a comfort zone with the Giants, he has develop great chemistry with the QB and is an ultimate professional.

Thanks for proving my point. Through the multiple games Nicks was out, several different receivers stepped up in his absence, and there is no question Nicks is the better receiver than Cruz. But you can't compare that to JPP and others on defense because in the offense, everything is based on timing and being in the right spot and making the right reads.

Listen, I'm not saying Cruz isn't a good receiver or important to the offense. All I'm saying is that he's not "irreplaceable", and not someone you should overpay when someone could step in his slot.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 04:23 PM
No, Cruz is a good receiver that BENEFITS from the system he's in. There were people saying he should be making top 5 WR money like Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald.. that is INSANE



Dominek Hixon is one, Rueben Randle has the talent as well.



Thanks for proving my point. Through the multiple games Nicks was out, several different receivers stepped up in his absence, and there is no question Nicks is the better receiver than Cruz. But you can't compare that to JPP and others on defense because in the offense, everything is based on timing and being in the right spot and making the right reads.

Listen, I'm not saying Cruz isn't a good receiver or important to the offense. All I'm saying is that he's not "irreplaceable", and not someone you should overpay when someone could step in his slot.

If Hixon, who I love, were that good, Cruz would be sitting on the bench or playing # 3. Randle still has a lot to prove. It isn't a question of is Cruz replaceable, everyone is, including Eli. The question is who can replace him without a drop off and for how much? Better to keep what you have than take a flyer when you think you can make a run at the brass ring.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 04:25 PM
what does that tell you? They shouldnt have let nicks play injured because when he sat out guys like randel and barden stepped up.

So, when Nicks was on the field there was never a 3rd receiver on the field?

What "it tells" me is that after 3 complete games without Nicks we saw that we have 3 decent #3 or #4 receivers who each had a good game, but who obviously were not reliable or trustworthy enough (in the judgement of our HC, OC, WR coaches, and probably in judgement of Eli) to warrant keeping a hobbled Nicks off the field for any more games the rest of the season.

In several of those games that Nicks "should not have even been on the field", according to some experts here, he was still more likely to pull double coverage than the others were. That had to have been factored in to the decision to play him when it was so obvious to those here who know so much more than our coaches that he should have sat out the rest of the season.

The point I'm trying to make is that, in response to those here who so casually say that Cruz could "easily be replaced" by the totality of these other receivers because of our "system", there is nothing in what any of them did this past season to justify those remarks. (The faith of some here in Jernigan is most especially misplaced--if even Barden, after 3+ seasons of disappointment, could step up in a prime time game and shine, and Jernigan still could not take advantage, then...what will it take?)

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 04:26 PM
Dominek Hixon is one, Rueben Randle has the talent as well.



Lol I know you want to hold on to your argument but you dont need to go this far.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:26 PM
No, Cruz is a good receiver that BENEFITS from the system he's in. There were people saying he should be making top 5 WR money like Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald.. that is INSANE



Dominek Hixon is one, Rueben Randle has the talent as well.



Thanks for proving my point. Through the multiple games Nicks was out, several different receivers stepped up in his absence, and there is no question Nicks is the better receiver than Cruz. But you can't compare that to JPP and others on defense because in the offense, everything is based on timing and being in the right spot and making the right reads.

Listen, I'm not saying Cruz isn't a good receiver or important to the offense. All I'm saying is that he's not "irreplaceable", and not someone you should overpay when someone could step in his slot.But people are saying to let him walk without even knowing what he wants yet. I would understand if he came out and said "look, I want 10 million a year", I would understand. NOBODY knows how much he's asking for, and people are already started with the psh whatever we'll just draft a rookie. Problem solved.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 04:30 PM
It's not about thinking its cool if he leaves, it's about reality and not and not setting a team back. Every year there are guys entering the league and making plays. If Eli is a top ten QB he should be able to make other around him look good.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 04:32 PM
It's not about thinking its cool if he leaves, it's about reality and not and not setting a team back. Every year there are guys entering the league and making plays. If Eli is a top ten QB he should be able to make other around him look good.

How'd that work out in 2012? :rolleyes:

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:33 PM
It's not about thinking its cool if he leaves, it's about reality and not and not setting a team back. Every year there are guys entering the league and making plays. If Eli is a top ten QB he should be able to make other around him look good.The reality is we shouldn't think guys coming off the bench can make the same impact, especially if they get very limited playing time.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 04:34 PM
So, when Nicks was on the field there was never a 3rd receiver on the field?

Yeah. Hixon. The guy who had more production this year than the previous 3rd wideout from last year. (manningham)


What "it tells" me is that after 3 complete games without Nicks we saw that we have 3 decent #3 or #4 receivers who each had a good game, but who obviously were not reliable or trustworthy enough (in the judgement of our HC, OC, WR coaches, and probably in judgement of Eli) to warrant keeping a hobbled Nicks off the field for any more games the rest of the season.

In several of those games that Nicks "should not have even been on the field", according to some experts here, he was still more likely to pull double coverage than the others were. That had to have been factored in to the decision to play him when it was so obvious to those here who know so much more than our coaches that he should have sat out the rest of the season.

The point I'm trying to make is that, in response to those here who so casually say that Cruz could "easily be replaced" by the totality of these other receivers because of our "system", there is nothing in what any of them did this past season to justify those remarks. (The faith of some here in Jernigan is most especially misplaced--if even Barden, after 3+ seasons of disappointment, could step up in a prime time game and shine, and Jernigan still could not take advantage, then...what will it take?)

All i can remember is that when nicks wasnt playing our offense seemed to move the ball a lot better. Saying that these guys played decent when nicks was gone is like saying they were average When in fact they played at a very high level. When barden got his chance at the 1 role he did his thing. When randel got his chance he also stepped up big. It was nice to see them actually design plays for these guys. I dont think cruz is as replaceable though. But i think the outside guys are.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 04:35 PM
How'd that work out in 2012? :rolleyes:Not ripping him or trying to turn this into an Eli thread. Just saying, look at some of the "elite" QB's and it seems they can do a lot with less.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:35 PM
Not ripping him or trying to turn this into an Eli thread. Just saying, look at some of the "elite" QB's and it seems they can do a lot with less.This isn't an Eli thread.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 04:36 PM
The reality is we shouldn't think guys coming off the bench can make the same impact, especially if they get very limited playing time.Eh, don't know about that. Seems like the best teams in the NfL let guys walk and keep on going.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 04:38 PM
True, but that makes it almost a certainty that Nicks or Cruz won't be here after 2013 due to CAP restrictions

Exactly. That's why I don't even include that option in this discussion. It's inconceivable (to me, at least) that Reese would be that short-sighted regarding either Cruz or Nicks.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:39 PM
Eh, don't know about that. Seems like the best teams in the NfL let guys walk and keep on going.I don't know of many teams who lose one of their best players and don't miss a beat.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 04:48 PM
I don't know of many teams who lose one of their best players and don't miss a beat.

Pats lost Gronk for 5 games this year in the regular season and he posted 537 less receiving yards as a result. The Patriots responded to this loss by rushing for 420 more yards in 2012 and they only ended up losing 117 yards of total offensive production.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 04:49 PM
He's just not big enough of a guy (height and weight) to be "that type" of elite receiver.


http://www.worldoforthopedics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/steve-smith-carolina-panthers.jpg (http://www.worldoforthopedics.com/tag/steve-smith/)

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:51 PM
Pats lost Gronk for 5 games this year in the regular season and he posted 537 less receiving yards as a result. The Patriots responded to this loss by rushing for 420 more yards in 2012 and they only ended up losing 117 yards of total offensive production.And then their offense stalled when they needed him the most.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 04:55 PM
And then their offense stalled when they needed him the most.

The Ravens D usually has it's way with the Patriots offense though. It is the only team that Brady has thrown more Ints against than TDs afterall. Most of us watched that game and it didn't look like Gronk would have saved them that day. The Ravens O and ST just didn't cough up the game like they did last year.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 04:57 PM
The Ravens D usually has it's way with the Patriots offense though. It is the only team that Brady has thrown more Ints against than TDs afterall. Most of us watched that game and it didn't look like Gronk would have saved them that day. The Ravens O and ST just didn't cough up the game like they did last year.I saw the game, they couldn't do anything offensively, especially in the red zone. I credit the Ravens D, but losing Gronk hurt them, especially in the red zone.

raintheory
01-27-2013, 04:57 PM
And then their offense stalled when they needed him the most.

That's one game over the course of games that got them to that point. He was playing injured most of the season and was out a couple of games. fact is in football you play with what you have, and Eli has shown to dish the ball out to different targets, give him a better line and he can do that with almost anyone, It is extremely hard for CB's to hold contain for a certain period of time cause they are playing the players movements and watching the QB's eyes.

sorry for the minor eli thread. but just wanted to correct your thinking a little.

raintheory
01-27-2013, 04:58 PM
I saw the game, they couldn't do anything offensively, especially in the red zone. I credit the Ravens D, but losing Gronk hurt them, especially in the red zone.
Don't know about that cause hernandez has been a good red zone threat for them and they improved their running attack.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 04:59 PM
was waiting for that...seems like the cool thing to do to compare every Giants receiver to Sinorice Moss. Sinorice was here for what 5 or 6 years? This kid has been here for 2 and has Victor Cruz of all people playing in front of him. You guys don't realize all Wr's are not interchangeable...your not gonna play Hakeem or Barden or Randle in the slot...just as ur not gonna play Jernigan out wide. Only time will tell...

1) Cool or not cool, I've never seen anyone here compare any other Giants receiver to Moss--except for the ones that are exactly same height (5'8") and weight (185 vs 189 lb), is known primarily for speed, and can't produce enough to warrant trust from Eli, Gilbride, and Coughlin. That would be Jernigan.

2) True, not all WRs are interchangeable, but you wouldn't know that from these Cruz threads. That's kind of the point of contention here, isn't it?.

3) Barden has played the slot in some of those rare occasions he's actually played. Has said he loves playing slot. He's just not as effective.

4) Why would you not play Jernigan out wide? Hasn't Steve Smith (Panthers) ever played wide?

5) Moss was a Giant for 4 years, not 6, including 2008 when we could have used him to step up after Plax eliminated himself.

Other than these discrepancies, you're post is good.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 05:02 PM
I saw the game, they couldn't do anything offensively, especially in the red zone. I credit the Ravens D, but losing Gronk hurt them, especially in the red zone.

Yeah I wouldn't say that the loss of Gronk doesn't hurt but the Patriots did show the world that they can still salvage most of his lost production by spreading it out elsewhere. In regards to the AFCC, I'd say that the loss of Talib during that game hurt more since the Ravens love to go deep. They had to rely on poor depth CBs to handle a deep receiving stud like Torrey Smith and then Anquan Bolden just took over his dude at that point too. The Ravens offense was just too much for the defense to handle.

Smith&Nicks
01-27-2013, 05:03 PM
I don't know of many teams who lose one of their best players and don't miss a beat.
Ugh....Patriots, packers plug and play their receivers, san frabn plug and play their RB's minus jacobs. You nees to watch more games outside of the giants games :)

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:06 PM
Yeah I wouldn't say that the loss of Gronk doesn't hurt but the Patriots did show the world that they can still salvage most of his lost production by spreading it out elsewhere. In regards to the AFCC, I'd say that the loss of Talib during that game hurt more since the Ravens love to go deep. They had to rely on poor depth CBs to handle a deep receiving stud like Torrey Smith and then Anquan Bolden just took over his dude at that point too. The Ravens offense was just too much for the defense to handle.Spreading it out doesn't sound like bad idea, the question is would we? I saw us spread the ball out in week 17 against Philly and we played well, but it was very rare this year.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't know of many teams who lose one of their best players and don't miss a beat.

the patriots played good without gronk, packers played good without jennings, the colts played good without Dallas clark when he got injured, the chargers played good without vincent Jackson when he had just left. What makes a good offense is the QB and the offensive line. Thats the core. That being said, cruz is still special and he brings unique things that we would most likely miss if he was to leave

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:09 PM
That's one game over the course of games that got them to that point. He was playing injured most of the season and was out a couple of games. fact is in football you play with what you have, and Eli has shown to dish the ball out to different targets, give him a better line and he can do that with almost anyone, It is extremely hard for CB's to hold contain for a certain period of time cause they are playing the players movements and watching the QB's eyes. sorry for the minor eli thread. but just wanted to correct your thinking a little.Your assessment is fair, but if Nicks is injured, we are left with Randle who is very good, Barden, Jernigan, and Hixon. I'm not suggesting Eli couldn't work with them, but I haven't seen enough from Jernigan and Barden to make me think that we are good to go.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:09 PM
Spreading it out doesn't sound like bad idea, the question is would we? I saw us spread the ball out in week 17 against Philly and we played well, but it was very rare this year.

+1 i wish we would design plays for our other receivers and spread the ball around more. We did that during the last game of the season as well. We even passed it to our FB and rb's. It was nice to see.

nycisgreat
01-27-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm not going to pull up his stats because I'm sure most of you know how elite his numbers are.
I've seen many people say that Jernigan or Barden will step up in his place..what? In what way? I barely see Jernigan play and Barden played one good game out of the four years he's been here.

I understand giving guys a chance to play and step up, but to just assume that they can perform at the same level Cruz has performed is absurd.

Same question could asked about people thinking Boss and Smith being irreplacable.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:11 PM
the patriots played good without gronk, packers played good without jennings, the colts played good without Dallas clark when he got injured, the chargers played good without vincent Jackson when he had just left. What makes a good offense is the QB and the offensive line. Thats the core. That being said, cruz is still special and he brings unique things that we would most likely miss if he was to leavePatriots..ok. I don't think Jennings is the Packers best player. The Chargers absolutely suck, where did you get them from? If you would have said Peyton Manning from the Colts then I would agree with you there.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Spreading it out doesn't sound like bad idea, the question is would we? I saw us spread the ball out in week 17 against Philly and we played well, but it was very rare this year.

Well Philly was kind of in a "who cares" mood that game since they all knew the coaching staff and front office was going to be blown up so I don't put too much stock into that game personally. It simply came down to the Giants gambling on a hobbled Nicks being able to provide more than he really was able to and not trusting their depth. We should have let guys like Randle, Wilson, and others "grow up" with more game time experience but I'm obviously looking at this from a hindsight perspective. I see the merit in why Coughlin went that direction but if he does have one weakness, it's trusting his veterans a little too much. The amount of carries Bradshaw receives would be an example.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Same question could asked about people thinking Boss and Smith being irreplacable.Nobody knows whay Cruz wants and they are already saying he should walk. Kinda weird to me.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
Patriots..ok. I don't think Jennings is the Packers best player. The Chargers absolutely suck, where did you get them from? If you would have said Peyton Manning from the Colts then I would agree with you there.


jennings is the packers most productive receiver just like cruz is the giants most productive receiver right now They lost him and played well. When Dallas clark got injured peyton manning and their offense still put up good numbers. I have no idea what happened to the chargers and rivers. But during the first year where they lost Vincent Jackson rivers threw for 4700 yards made the pro bowl and had the highest qb rating that season. Those were all instances where teams lost arguably their best weapon and still didnt miss a beat.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
Well Philly was kind of in a "who cares" mood that game since they all knew the coaching staff and front office was going to be blown up so I don't put too much stock into that game personally. It simply came down to the Giants gambling on a hobbled Nicks being able to provide more than he really was able to and not trusting their depth. We should have let guys like Randle, Wilson, and others "grow up" with more game time experience but I'm obviously looking at this from a hindsight perspective. I see the merit in why Coughlin went that direction but if he does have one weakness, it's trusting his veterans a little too much. The amount of carries Bradshaw receives would be an example.That's kind of where I was going. It's kind of a stretch to think we would spread the ball out more. We SHOULD, but yeah.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:18 PM
jennings is the packers most productive receiver just like cruz is the giants most productive receiver right now They lost him and played well. When Dallas clark got injured peyton manning and their offense still put up good numbers. I have no idea what happened to the chargers and rivers. But during the first year where they lost Vincent Jackson rivers threw for 4700 yards made the pro bowl and had the highest qb rating that season.Uh, Philip Rivers still had Vjax in 2011. It was after 2011 where he struggled.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 05:20 PM
The Patriots have let guys go and Brady keeps on winning. I don't want see Cruz walk but if he wants to much let him go. Same goes for Nicks. Just draft well.

TheEnigma
01-27-2013, 05:23 PM
That's kind of where I was going. It's kind of a stretch to think we would spread the ball out more. We SHOULD, but yeah.

As long as you don't lose too many pieces (like if we lost both Cruz and Nicks) there's no reason we shouldn't retain a majority of that production with the use of spreading the ball on offense to more players. I just looked it up and Randle only 32 targets all season while FrakenNicks more than tripled that with 100. I could look up the carries of Bradshaw versus the other backs too.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:24 PM
Uh, Philip Rivers still had Vjax in 2011. It was after 2011 where he struggled.

in 2010 v jack missed 11 games and rivers still had one of his better seasons that year. As a matter a fact Gates missed 6 games as well that season. They were forced to sign guys off of the practice squad. i remember gates playing injured also. Im not sure if Rivers won MVP that season but i remember thinking he should have. I watched most of their games that year.

gmen46
01-27-2013, 05:25 PM
Ugh....Patriots, packers plug and play their receivers, san frabn plug and play their RB's minus jacobs. You nees to watch more games outside of the giants games :)

She said she doesn't know "many" teams who lose one of their best players and don't miss a beat. not "any" team. You kind of confirm that with your tiny list of elite teams. Exceptions that prove the rule..

And, actually, Niners could hardly be said to have lost any of their best players this year. What "best player" that they lost do you have in mind? Using an effective "RB by committee" is something most NFL teams do now, so that doesn't apply to the statement either. It's not like they lost Gore and substituted with back ups to compemsate for losing him.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 05:29 PM
The Steelers let go of two very good WR's and still stay competitive.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:33 PM
in 2010 v jack missed 11 games and rivers still had one of his better seasons that year. As a matter a fact Gates missed 6 games as well that season. They were forced to sign guys off of the practice squad. i remember gates playing injured also. Im not sure if Rivers won MVP that season but i remember thinking he should have. I watched most of their games that year.I didn't see many of their games last year so I can't comment. However you would think they would be able to replicate that same amount of success with VJax gone and Antonio Gates still there, right?

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:34 PM
The Steelers let go of two very good WR's and still stay competitive.The Steelers struggled this year. I can't say if it was from that per se, but they did struggle.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 05:35 PM
The Steelers struggled this year. I can't say if it was from that per se, but they did struggle.They let go of Burress and kept winning and the they let go of Holmes and kept winning. Not saying they are in the playoffs every year but almost every year.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:38 PM
I didn't see many of their games last year so I can't comment. However you would think they would be able to replicate that same amount of success with VJax gone and Antonio Gates still there, right?

This didnt take place last year. This was during the 2010 season when they lost Jackson for pretty much the entire season, and gates was injured. They were able to still play at high level offensively and didn't really miss a beat. Right now they have much bigger problems than to simply say or feel they aren't playing good because of Jackson being gone. Also rivers first started struggling in 2011 when Jackson was there. Not when he left.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:42 PM
This didnt take place last year. This was during the 2010 season when they lost Jackson for pretty much the entire season, and gates was injured. They were able to still play at high level offensively and didn't really miss a beat. Right now they have much bigger problems than to simply say or feel they aren't playing good because of Jackson being gone.Question, did they continue to play VJax when he was injured?:rolleyes:

Anyway, I see what you're saying but I'm not really sold that everything will be peachy if we do lose Cruz. I'm not suggesting we'll go 0-16 or anything, but he is a major part of this offensive.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 05:45 PM
Don't think anyone wants to see him leave. It's just business.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:46 PM
Don't think anyone wants to see him leave. It's just business.I get that part, I agree.
I just think it's silly to assume that guys will replicate what Cruz has done.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 05:49 PM
Question, did they continue to play VJax when he was injured?:rolleyes:

Anyway, I see what you're saying but I'm not really sold that everything will be peachy if we do lose Cruz. I'm not suggesting we'll go 0-16 or anything, but he is a major part of this offensive.
.
Same. I think Your husband is very unique. If i had to choose between him or the top 5 when healthy guy. Id go with cruz

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 05:50 PM
I get that part, I agree.I just think it's silly to assume that guys will replicate what Cruz has done.Why assume no one will be able to?

Diamondring
01-27-2013, 05:52 PM
I get that part, I agree.
I just think it's silly to assume that guys will replicate what Cruz has done.So he did great in 011, but you have to account for Nicks being a big part of Cruz's success by taken attention away from him. Cruz is not enough last season. Inorder for him to keep on putting big numbers, other receivers need to be threats.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:53 PM
.
Same. I think Your husband is very unique. If i had to choose between him or the top 5 when healthy guy. Id go with cruzWell Hakeem has to stay healthy..otherwise it's no contest :)

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:53 PM
So he did great in 011, but you have to account for Nicks being a big part of Cruz's success by taken attention away from him. Cruz is not enough last season. Inorder for him to keep on putting big numbers, other receivers need to be threats.He got 1,000 yards and 10 touchdowns while Hakeem was limping around.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 05:54 PM
Why assume no one will be able to?Because I haven't seen enough of Barden or Jernigan to make me think that they can fill Cruz' shoes.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:02 PM
Because I haven't seen enough of Barden or Jernigan to make me think that they can fill Cruz' shoes.That doesn't mean they can though. They where extremely happy to draft Randle. The talk was he is a bigger version of Nicks. So what if he lives up to the hype and Nicks can stay on the field? They have drafted WR's before that have not been much their rookie seasons and them became very good. Would not count JJ out either.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 06:06 PM
That doesn't mean they can though. They where extremely happy to draft Randle. The talk was he is a bigger version of Nicks. So what if he lives up to the hype and Nicks can stay on the field? They have drafted WR's before that have not been much their rookie seasons and them became very good. Would not count JJ out either.I'm not counting anybody out, I just haven't seen enough of Jernigan or whoever to just be like "Ok, Cruz can walk". Just my opinion.

What if he lives up to the hype, what if he doesn't? If's go both ways.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 06:07 PM
So he did great in 011, but you have to account for Nicks being a big part of Cruz's success by taken attention away from him. Cruz is not enough last season. Inorder for him to keep on putting big numbers, other receivers need to be threats.

What about Cruz's numbers in 2012 was not enough?

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:07 PM
Cruz has been great for this team, but they have to trust their draft.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:10 PM
What about Cruz's numbers in 2012 was not enough?Eh, stats. No to say he had a bad year, but stats can be misleading.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 06:11 PM
Eh, stats. No to say he had a bad year, but stats can be misleading.How were they misleading?

ShakeandBake
01-27-2013, 06:14 PM
.
Same. I think Your husband is very unique. If i had to choose between him or the top 5 when healthy guy. Id go with cruz

Nicks is the better receiver when healthy. Throughout his career he has put up more yards per catch than Cruz has. I want Cruz to get a new contract but it will not be the end of the world if we don't resign him .

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 06:14 PM
Eh, stats. No to say he had a bad year, but stats can be misleading.

He made so many catches for so many yards and so many TDs. How is that misleading?

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:14 PM
How were they misleading?Maybe misleading was the wrong thing to say. His stats are what they are. His stats where average though. Nothing to over pay for.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 06:16 PM
Maybe misleading was the wrong thing to say. His stats are what they are. His stats where average though. Nothing to over pay for.

Two back to back 1,000+ yard seasons is "average"? What is "overpaying"?

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:16 PM
Two back to back 1,000+ yard seasons is "average"? What is "overpaying"?In today's NFL yes.

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 06:17 PM
Maybe misleading was the wrong thing to say. His stats are what they are. His stats where average though. Nothing to over pay for.Over pay? We don't even know what he wants yet.

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:19 PM
Over pay? We don't even know what he wants yet.Do you really think he will not ask for a lot? Or more than the Giants can afford?

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 06:19 PM
Do you really think he will not ask for a lot? Or more than the Giants can afford?Uh, no? If he knows our situation he won't.

Marvelousmik
01-27-2013, 06:20 PM
Nicks is the better receiver when healthy. Throughout his career he has put up more yards per catch than Cruz has. I want Cruz to get a new contract but it will not be the end of the world if we don't resign him .

No, cruz has more yards per catch. And yards per catch doesnt mean someone is better. But i still think cruz is better

Buddy333
01-27-2013, 06:21 PM
Uh, no? If he knows our situation he won't.Lol. Seriously?

Rudyy
01-27-2013, 06:22 PM
Lol. Seriously?Cruz is humble and wouldn't do something ridiculous like that. If he does then I can see the Giants parting ways.

RoanokeFan
01-27-2013, 06:23 PM
In today's NFL yes.

So you think more than 50% of the wide receivers in the NFL have had back to back 1,000 yard seasons?