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shane4177
02-01-2013, 12:03 PM
We need to send him off and save some cap room. In 2007 he emerged right towards the end of the season, where we had drafted a 1st round CB, AND brought in a reasonably priced vet CB in Sam Madison to play and school our younger DBs. I say ditch Web head before 2013 season......draft a high round CB, and bring in a low priced vet to play/tutor the draft pick as well as Prince and Hosley. Heck Rolle used to play CB when he was first drafted by ARI, he can mentor these guys too for that matter........

Drez
02-01-2013, 12:04 PM
And be replaced by whom?

ryan12
02-01-2013, 12:06 PM
And be replaced by whom?

did you read his post he said draft a high round cb and bring in a vet. i agree with op 1000% webster was TERRIBLE this year.

JB456
02-01-2013, 12:12 PM
did you read his post he said draft a high round cb and bring in a vet. i agree with op 1000% webster was TERRIBLE this year.

Now, I am not defending Webster's piss poor season, it was really bad but do you think the injuries he sustained had a significant impact on his season?

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 12:13 PM
He was pretty bad, but I'd like to imagine that a bit of bad luck played a big role.

Webster was in position to defend most of the passes he got burned on. He just wasn't finding the ball/finishing the play. You cant judge a guy on one bad year when hes been a solid player for us for over half a decade.

Drez
02-01-2013, 12:15 PM
did you read his post he said draft a high round cb and bring in a vet. i agree with op 1000% webster was TERRIBLE this year.Nice concept.

Now give me names.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 12:15 PM
I'm curious if they could sign a mid tier FA CB, like for instance Sean Smith for approx 6 or so mil a season. Talib another possibility.
Always have the pacman jones who actually has been a law abiding citizen for awhile now. Darius Butler also, but I'm not sure he is a scheme fit.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 12:21 PM
I'm curious if they could sign a mid tier FA CB, like for instance Sean Smith for approx 6 or so mil a season. Talib another possibility.
Always have the pacman jones who actually has been a law abiding citizen for awhile now. Darius Butler also, but I'm not sure he is a scheme fit.

CWeb is going to be $3 mil to cut.

Bring in another FA CB of CWebs' quality from 2011 or prior is going to be $8 mil+. If you go cheaper, you're getting a worse player ... so why would you want to be worse at a key defensive position?

And we couldn't afford it.

Keep CWeb this year and hope he rebounds (history dictates that he will), draft a CB high up, and go into 2014 with Prince, Hosely and New Guy.

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Heck Rolle used to play CB when he was first drafted by ARI, he can mentor these guys too for that matter........

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2pjeghpnc1r9dhud.gif

I get where you are coming from everywhere else but with the way Rolle's career has played out, he shouldn't be anywhere near the CBs. Prince heading into his 3rd year should be an experienced enough mentor to handle the CBs.

Drez
02-01-2013, 12:25 PM
CWeb is going to be $3 mil to cut.

Bring in another FA CB of CWebs' quality from 2011 or prior is going to be $8 mil+. If you go cheaper, you're getting a worse player ... so why would you want to be worse at a key defensive position?

And we couldn't afford it.

Keep CWeb this year and hope he rebounds (history dictates that he will), draft a CB high up, and go into 2014 with Prince, Hosely and New Guy.
So long as the player isn't making more than Webster's base salary we won't be losing money on the deal. If there's a realistic option out there, then it should be explored.

shane4177
02-01-2013, 12:25 PM
CWeb is going to be $3 mil to cut.

Bring in another FA CB of CWebs' quality from 2011 or prior is going to be $8 mil+. If you go cheaper, you're getting a worse player ... so why would you want to be worse at a key defensive position?

And we couldn't afford it.

Keep CWeb this year and hope he rebounds (history dictates that he will), draft a CB high up, and go into 2014 with Prince, Hosely and New Guy.

Cweb's quality for this year or previous ones? We couldn't possibly find a vet FA that would cost less than 8mil? How much did we give Sam Madison back in '07.....I don't think it was that much....

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 12:26 PM
No keep him. How long can one guy block receivers especialy good ones who may be faster than him. He may also tried to assist others in Fewel's hard coverage scheme.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 12:30 PM
So long as the player isn't making more than Webster's base salary we won't be losing money on the deal. If there's a realistic option out there, then it should be explored.

CWeb's base salary was determined in 2008 AND he was a draft pick of ours in his second contract.

Generally speaking, Free Agency is always paying retail ... I.E. it would cost you more to replace that existing talent than just to keep the existing talent. Normally I wouldn't mind but we have about $10 million we need to shed from our cap as it is.

Drez
02-01-2013, 12:35 PM
CWeb's base salary was determined in 2008 AND he was a draft pick of ours in his second contract.

Generally speaking, Free Agency is always paying retail ... I.E. it would cost you more to replace that existing talent than just to keep the existing talent. Normally I wouldn't mind but we have about $10 million we need to shed from our cap as it is.Like I said, if we can upgrade and save money (or not lose) then it should be explored. If not, then not.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 12:37 PM
Cweb's quality for this year or previous ones? We couldn't possibly find a vet FA that would cost less than 8mil? How much did we give Sam Madison back in '07.....I don't think it was that much....

A few factors to consider:

1) Corner Backs on the whole make A LOT more money since 2009 (the defenseless receiver rule).

2) A Sam Madison equivalent would be a HUGE down grade over what we have now.

3) Sam Madison had a magical season out of nowhere in 2007. He hadn't duplicated that kind of success since his rookie contract (and arguably 2007 was a career year for him to boot). You can't expect that kind of cheap out-of-nowhere performance.

4) Sam Madison at his best had about the same season as CWeb's 2012 season. Just an FYI.

5) CWeb wasn't nearly so bad as people are making him out to be in 2012. A few bad lowlights is all.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 12:37 PM
Like I said, if we can upgrade and save money (or not lose) then it should be explored. If not, then not.

Oh I agree ... I just don't think we'll feasibly find someone.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 12:38 PM
CWeb is going to be $3 mil to cut.

Bring in another FA CB of CWebs' quality from 2011 or prior is going to be $8 mil+. If you go cheaper, you're getting a worse player ... so why would you want to be worse at a key defensive position?

And we couldn't afford it.

Keep CWeb this year and hope he rebounds (history dictates that he will), draft a CB high up, and go into 2014 with Prince, Hosely and New Guy.

They could afford it, and they would have another starter going forward. Either way Webster is gone at the end of next season.

They aren't priced out of the giants range. Jason McCourty's contract is a good idea of what upper-mid CBs get. 6 year, 43 mil. Talib, smith, etc will try to use that as a baseline. I would expect with the available CBs there are in FA, they would be able to be signed for a bit less than that.

shane4177
02-01-2013, 12:40 PM
CWeb's base salary was determined in 2008 AND he was a draft pick of ours in his second contract.

Generally speaking, Free Agency is always paying retail ... I.E. it would cost you more to replace that existing talent than just to keep the existing talent. Normally I wouldn't mind but we have about $10 million we need to shed from our cap as it is.

Question though.......IF he starts to stink like he did this year.........how long do you leave him out there? Then you have a high salary CB sitting on the sidelines because he is getting burned consistently............he makes too much $$ to be depth. We could move him to the slot, but I think that would be disatrous........and he is NOT going to get moved to safety to accomodate his decline with al the guys we have back there now....

Toadofsteel
02-01-2013, 12:47 PM
A few factors to consider:

1) Corner Backs on the whole make A LOT more money since 2009 (the defenseless receiver rule).

2) A Sam Madison equivalent would be a HUGE down grade over what we have now.

3) Sam Madison had a magical season out of nowhere in 2007. He hadn't duplicated that kind of success since his rookie contract (and arguably 2007 was a career year for him to boot). You can't expect that kind of cheap out-of-nowhere performance.

4) Sam Madison at his best had about the same season as CWeb's 2012 season. Just an FYI.

5) CWeb wasn't nearly so bad as people are making him out to be in 2012. A few bad lowlights is all.

I was with you until #5. Corey Toaster has regressed a lot. Not ruling out that he could bounce back in 2013, but he was getting burned so hard that by the end he was getting targeted over HOSLEY...

Redeyejedi
02-01-2013, 01:04 PM
I'm curious if they could sign a mid tier FA CB, like for instance Sean Smith for approx 6 or so mil a season. Talib another possibility.
Always have the pacman jones who actually has been a law abiding citizen for awhile now. Darius Butler also, but I'm not sure he is a scheme fit.I like Sean Smith always have. I would love to sign him.

Redeyejedi
02-01-2013, 01:09 PM
They could afford it, and they would have another starter going forward. Either way Webster is gone at the end of next season.

They aren't priced out of the giants range. Jason McCourty's contract is a good idea of what upper-mid CBs get. 6 year, 43 mil. Talib, smith, etc will try to use that as a baseline. I would expect with the available CBs there are in FA, they would be able to be signed for a bit less than that. Didnt u say they saved 8 Million by cutting Webster. I think they could find another starter for 6 and save 2 million.

Drez
02-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Didnt u say they saved 8 Million by cutting Webster. I think they could find another starter for 6 and save 2 million.We'd save his base salary of $7m, with about $2.5m-$3m in dead money. At least according to spotrac.com.

So, even if we sign a guy whose cap hit would be $6m this season, we'd still save $1m.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Didnt u say they saved 8 Million by cutting Webster. I think they could find another starter for 6 and save 2 million.

Yea. I would think they could. If they structure the deal to be a bit more backloaded they could get a guy under contract for the first two years for less than 5 probably. Which gives them cap room until most of the bigger contracts on the team expire. That should leave them with enough room to resign Nicks and jpp

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 01:20 PM
We'd save his base salary of $7m, with about $2.5m-$3m in dead money. At least according to spotrac.com.

So, even if we sign a guy whose cap hit would be $6m this season, we'd still save $1m.


Would help if anyone knew what that "misc bonus" was and if it hits next season if Webster stays or goes.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 01:29 PM
webby was pretty bad last year but to just cut him without drafting a CB really high or signing a FA is crazy. We have only Prince and Hosley and they both get banged up on occasion. We need to add some depth to the CB position as well

ryan12
02-01-2013, 01:32 PM
id rather have me 6 year old son play cb then webster. he is slow doesnt play hard and had a miserable year

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 01:38 PM
They could afford it, and they would have another starter going forward. Either way Webster is gone at the end of next season.

They aren't priced out of the giants range. Jason McCourty's contract is a good idea of what upper-mid CBs get. 6 year, 43 mil. Talib, smith, etc will try to use that as a baseline. I would expect with the available CBs there are in FA, they would be able to be signed for a bit less than that.

Jason McCourty wasn't a free agent. He was drafted and extended by the Titans (to my point of home grown second contracts being cheaper than the FA equivalents).

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 01:41 PM
Question though.......IF he starts to stink like he did this year.........how long do you leave him out there? Then you have a high salary CB sitting on the sidelines because he is getting burned consistently............he makes too much $$ to be depth. We could move him to the slot, but I think that would be disatrous........and he is NOT going to get moved to safety to accomodate his decline with al the guys we have back there now....

1) He didn't stink this year. Watch more than the high/low lights.

2) 2013 is the last year of his contract anyway.

3) You have that question with virtually every player on your team.

4) Find me a better *realistic* alternative for 2013.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 01:43 PM
I was with you until #5. Corey Toaster has regressed a lot. Not ruling out that he could bounce back in 2013, but he was getting burned so hard that by the end he was getting targeted over HOSLEY...

Again ... watch more than the highlights.

I'll grant you that he got absolutely lit up in the Ravens game, but most of those catches he had position and Torey Smith made some great plays.

The Green Bay game was more indicative of how CWeb played this year. A couple of gaffs (including one for a TD in a very televised and obvious highlight) and 50+ minutes of solid play including some outstanding ones.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 01:46 PM
We will probably ask him to take a big pay cut and keep him. I doubt we will pay him his current salary to play next year.
If he doesn't want to renegotiate then he will be gone.
Just my opinion.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 01:52 PM
We will probably ask him to take a big pay cut and keep him. I doubt we will pay him his current salary to play next year.
If he doesn't want to renegotiate then he will be gone.
Just my opinion.

The Giants have no leverage over CWeb, If they cut him, he'll get $3 million plus whatever he'll get from whoever picks him up this year (an easy $5+ mill/yr contract). If they cut him and resign him, they'd still eat the $3 million plus whatever they negotiated with him.

If they cut him and don't resign him, then their CBs are a guy who hasn't played a full season yet (Prince), a guy who can't cover well (Hosely) and a guy they probably don't want (Tryon) and whoever they can draft and whatever they get stuck with in free agency (which would more than likely cost them almost as much as paying CWeb in the first place).

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 02:09 PM
i get what ur saying krunch and actually lean more towards your thinking, but you are overstating websters play last year. you make it seem like his play last yr was "1 big play given up, solid the rest of the game"...I don't know what defense you were watching, granted Webster had a few games where he wasnt the worst player on the field (GB being 1 and that was a game that fit ur description). He was getting burned consistently week in week out, a majority of the game. Maybe I'm overstating it now I just remember so many games where Webster took until getting burned a dozen times to finally get a pass defense. I'd think to myself, "about damn time" and not "nice play" and I typically am a homer for every player on the team, even Webster. I didnt even really get on him until late in the season when enough was enough.
I mean I believe he was graded the worst cornerback in the league by PFF (Prince was 11th for comparison)...Webster was god awful last year...that said, I'd keep him and hope his horrendous year serves as motivation and we get the guy from 2011 n 2010 back.

edit-and sam madison was nowhere near as bad as u made him out to be. he was a solid starter for much of his career. its why we went out and signed him at the tail end of his career, and he still started for us until that playoff run. Madison was solid for us, and was a very good player for KC (god I hope I didnt just gaffe his prior team after trying to say he played well lol).

edit edit- wait, it was Miami iirc with Madison, We got a S from KC but I forgot his name. He was pretty good in KC too

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:10 PM
The Giants have no leverage over CWeb, If they cut him, he'll get $3 million plus whatever he'll get from whoever picks him up this year (an easy $5+ mill/yr contract). If they cut him and resign him, they'd still eat the $3 million plus whatever they negotiated with him.

If they cut him and don't resign him, then their CBs are a guy who hasn't played a full season yet (Prince), a guy who can't cover well (Hosely) and a guy they probably don't want (Tryon) and whoever they can draft and whatever they get stuck with in free agency (which would more than likely cost them almost as much as paying CWeb in the first place).

If the giants cut webster, Webster gets absolutely nothing.

Drez
02-01-2013, 02:10 PM
i get what ur saying krunch and actually lean more towards your thinking, but you are overstating websters play last year. you make it seem like his play last yr was "1 big play given up, solid the rest of the game"...I don't know what defense you were watching, granted Webster had a few games where he wasnt the worst player on the field (GB being 1 and that was a game that fit ur description). He was getting burned consistently week in week out, a majority of the game. Maybe I'm overstating it now I just remember so many games where Webster took until getting burned a dozen times to finally get a pass defense. I'd think to myself, "about damn time" and not "nice play" and I typically am a homer for every player on the team, even Webster. I didnt even really get on him until late in the season when enough was enough.
I mean I believe he was graded the worst cornerback in the league by PFF (Prince was 11th for comparison)...Webster was god awful last year...that said, I'd keep him and hope his horrendous year serves as motivation and we get the guy from 2011 n 2010 back.
Webster played poorly this past season. However, many here think that the Baltimore game was typical of his play. It was not.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:11 PM
Jason McCourty wasn't a free agent. He was drafted and extended by the Titans (to my point of home grown second contracts being cheaper than the FA equivalents).

Sean smith is using McCourty's deal as a baseline for his contract. So it's entirely relevant. And players resigning with their teams are not always cheaper than FAs. A lot of times it's very similar.

Drez
02-01-2013, 02:12 PM
If the giants cut webster, Webster gets absolutely nothing.Well, we don't necessarily know if it was agreed that all the bonus money was to be paid at once. It very well may be that the bonus money could have been put on installment.

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 02:14 PM
Webster played poorly this past season. However, many here think that the Baltimore game was typical of his play. It was not.i dunno bout that...he was still in position vs Torey Smith each time, and that was how it went for most of the season for him. He'd frustratingly be in somewhat decent position to make a play on the ball and just wouldn't get the job done. That was his story all season aside from the close to half dozen or so TDs he gave up in blown coverage

shane4177
02-01-2013, 02:14 PM
1) He didn't stink this year. Watch more than the high/low lights.

I cannot dispute this....I am not a big game film watcher, BUT if someone could provide a ranking list maybe on CBs to see how good/bad he really was for this season

2) 2013 is the last year of his contract anyway.

So even if he plays bad......we just eat the crappy play cuz it's his last yr? If he plays bad I so no reason to keep him around even if it the last year of his contract

3) You have that question with virtually every player on your team.

Yes but not every player on the team plays in the secondary......

4) Find me a better *realistic* alternative for 2013.

At the moment, off the top of my head don't have one........from the list of FA for 2013 who is a decent vet that we could sign for a resonable contract...........



Again I don't have al the answers........but we will need to make some cuts, OR contract reductions

Drez
02-01-2013, 02:15 PM
i dunno bout that...he was still in position vs Torey Smith each time, and that was how it went for most of the season for him. He'd frustratingly be in somewhat decent position to make a play on the ball and just wouldn't get the job done. That was his story all season aside from the close to half dozen or so TDs he gave up in blown coverage
He was not consistently beaten as often as he was in Baltimore the rest of the season. Not arguing that he wasn't in position, I'm just talking about a raw number of beats.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:17 PM
Well, we don't necessarily know if it was agreed that all the bonus money was to be paid at once. It very well may be that the bonus money could have been put on installment.

Signing bonuses are up front. Not spread out.

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 02:21 PM
He was not consistently beaten as often as he was in Baltimore the rest of the season. Not arguing that he wasn't in position, I'm just talking about a raw number of beats.true but i dont know if thats some sort of bargaining chip or something. if a corner got beaten the # of times Web did vs Baltimore more than a couple games, imo a team would just bench or release him...that was especially terrible. and again, so frustrating bc like most of the season, he wasnt in terrible position, maybe that broken hand played a bigger role than we realize...i dunno.

im for keeping him if thats what JR sees fit to do, I was just saying he was nowhere near the quality corner krunch was saying. Likewise, Madison made 4 straight pro bowls and had like 30-40 ints, his best yr was def. not as good as year webster just had lol thats a comical assertion...and krunch i mean no disrespect ur always spot on, i just disagree no offense

Drez
02-01-2013, 02:27 PM
Signing bonuses are up front. Not spread out. Usually speaking, yes. However, is it illegal or outside the realm of possibility that they agreed to pay in on installment? I don't think it was, I'm just saying without knowing the actual details of the contract we're really only guessing, however educated it may be.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 02:32 PM
Again I don't have al the answers........but we will need to make some cuts, OR contract reductions

Oh yeah absolutely. I was just pointing out that while CWeb is a big cap hit we might be kinda stuck with him.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:32 PM
Usually speaking, yes. However, is it illegal or outside the realm of possibility that they agreed to pay in on installment? I don't think it was, I'm just saying without knowing the actual details of the contract we're really only guessing, however educated it may be.

The only reason signing bonuses are "guaranteed" is because they are paid up front. Otherwise if paid in installments if he were to be released they would no longer have to pay him

shane4177
02-01-2013, 02:34 PM
We will probably ask him to take a big pay cut and keep him. I doubt we will pay him his current salary to play next year.
If he doesn't want to renegotiate then he will be gone.
Just my opinion.

I agree.....with all the conjecture aside, this is what I see happening. Either he takes a pay cut or GOODBYE!

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 02:39 PM
i get what ur saying krunch and actually lean more towards your thinking, but you are overstating websters play last year. you make it seem like his play last yr was "1 big play given up, solid the rest of the game"...I don't know what defense you were watching, granted Webster had a few games where he wasnt the worst player on the field (GB being 1 and that was a game that fit ur description). He was getting burned consistently week in week out, a majority of the game. Maybe I'm overstating it now I just remember so many games where Webster took until getting burned a dozen times to finally get a pass defense. I'd think to myself, "about damn time" and not "nice play" and I typically am a homer for every player on the team, even Webster. I didnt even really get on him until late in the season when enough was enough.
I mean I believe he was graded the worst cornerback in the league by PFF (Prince was 11th for comparison)...Webster was god awful last year...that said, I'd keep him and hope his horrendous year serves as motivation and we get the guy from 2011 n 2010 back.

edit-and sam madison was nowhere near as bad as u made him out to be. he was a solid starter for much of his career. its why we went out and signed him at the tail end of his career, and he still started for us until that playoff run. Madison was solid for us, and was a very good player for KC (god I hope I didnt just gaffe his prior team after trying to say he played well lol).

edit edit- wait, it was Miami iirc with Madison, We got a S from KC but I forgot his name. He was pretty good in KC too

CWeb got the blame (on these boards and with analysts who didn't actually watch the game) for a lot of stuff that wasn't hit responsibility or fault.

For instance, in the Browns game the first TD pass to AJ Green was over the top of CWeb. Now CWeb kind of gave up his trail technique (and if you wanted to slam him for poor technique on that play fine) but if he had been in PERFECT trail position, that throw and catch was being made. Why? Because there is was no Safety help over the top AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.

It was blown coverage but not by CWeb but by the Safety (Stevie Brown copped to it after the game). Many MANY times during this season (and last season and in 2010 for that matter) we've had bad Safety play in coverage. Usually it's from Rolle, who plays coverages extremely purely (he likes to free lance a lot).

We run a Cover 2 scheme on defense primarily. Almost every time you see blown coverage, it's not the CB but the Safety who is to blame.

That's not to say CWeb didn't have a poor season .... for CWeb. He did. But his play overall (when compared with the rest of the league's CBs) wasn't as poor as is made out to be.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 02:42 PM
Signing bonuses are up front. Not spread out.

Not necessarily. Signing bonuses mean guaranteed money, but prorated signing bonuses from restructured contracts (like CWeb's) can be paid out over time. In other words, part of that "misc bonus" on Sports Trac contract info.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:45 PM
CWeb got the blame (on these boards and with analysts who didn't actually watch the game) for a lot of stuff that wasn't hit responsibility or fault.

For instance, in the Browns game the first TD pass to AJ Green was over the top of CWeb. Now CWeb kind of gave up his trail technique (and if you wanted to slam him for poor technique on that play fine) but if he had been in PERFECT trail position, that throw and catch was being made. Why? Because there is was no Safety help over the top AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.

It was blown coverage but not by CWeb but by the Safety (Stevie Brown copped to it after the game). Many MANY times during this season (and last season and in 2010 for that matter) we've had bad Safety play in coverage. Usually it's from Rolle, who plays coverages extremely purely (he likes to free lance a lot).

We run a Cover 2 scheme on defense primarily. Almost every time you see blown coverage, it's not the CB but the Safety who is to blame.

That's not to say CWeb didn't have a poor season .... for CWeb. He did. But his play overall (when compared with the rest of the league's CBs) wasn't as poor as is made out to be.

The first Td to green? Where green was wide open? Webster wasent playing trail at all.

Was all zone. Webster had underneath coverage. Brown came up for the play fake, Webster just stayed in his short zone and green walked in.

While technically the coverage was blown by brown, Webster has some responsibility too there.


“Stevie Brown should’ve been over the top, half-field coverage,” Fewell said. “He saw (the) number two (receiver) block; he bit on the run fake. He’s secondary force in that coverage, and he just let his coverage responsibility go.”

Corey Webster though wasn’t free of any blame.

“He (Webster) played his assignment, but you would expect a veteran like that to say, ‘He’s not there,’ and he realize he wasn’t there, and to keep running and continue on the play,” Fewell said.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:46 PM
The Giants have no leverage over CWeb, If they cut him, he'll get $3 million plus whatever he'll get from whoever picks him up this year (an easy $5+ mill/yr contract). If they cut him and resign him, they'd still eat the $3 million plus whatever they negotiated with him.

If they cut him and don't resign him, then their CBs are a guy who hasn't played a full season yet (Prince), a guy who can't cover well (Hosely) and a guy they probably don't want (Tryon) and whoever they can draft and whatever they get stuck with in free agency (which would more than likely cost them almost as much as paying CWeb in the first place).
I think you're wrong on this one. We would take a $3MM cap hit because we deferred the cap application of his bonus over the length of his contract. But he's already got that money. I think it would definitely be in his interest to take a cut.

GoDeep80
02-01-2013, 02:46 PM
I'm curious if they could sign a mid tier FA CB, like for instance Sean Smith for approx 6 or so mil a season. Talib another possibility.
Always have the pacman jones who actually has been a law abiding citizen for awhile now. Darius Butler also, but I'm not sure he is a scheme fit.Talib would be the best fit because he's played in a very similar system when in TB. also he's big and can tackle.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:47 PM
Not necessarily. Signing bonuses mean guaranteed money, but prorated signing bonuses from restructured contracts (like CWeb's) can be paid out over time. In other words, part of that "misc bonus" on Sports Trac contract info.

Wrong. Signing bonuses are ALWAYS prorated for the salary cap. That does not mean that the player receives them spread out. They get that money up front. Signing bonuses are not guaranteed. They are paid immediately up front which means labeling them guaranteed or not is pointless

And that misc bonus on spottrac is not a signing bonus. Other players who restructure and have that money converted to a signing bonus it shows it in the signing bonus box. That misc bonus is something else. Incentives, roster bonus perhaps.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
Wrong. Signing bonuses are ALWAYS prorated for the salary cap. That does not mean that the player receives them spread out. They get that money up front. Signing bonuses are not guaranteed. They are paid immediately up front which means labeling them guaranteed or not is pointless

And that misc bonus on spottrac is not a signing bonus. Other players who restructure and have that money converted to a signing bonus it shows it in the signing bonus box. That misc bonus is something else. Incentives, roster bonus perhaps.

I'm not sure you're right about guaranteed money. I was under the impression that guaranteed money could also take the form of guaranteed salary over a certain amount of time. In other words, you could have $12MM guaranteed with $8MM being in the form of a signing bonus and the balance in guaranteed pay over (lets say) 3 years.
I'm not positive about this but I am under this impression.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
Wrong. Signing bonuses are ALWAYS prorated for the salary cap. That does not mean that the player receives them spread out. They get that money up front. Signing bonuses are not guaranteed. They are paid immediately up front which means labeling them guaranteed or not is pointless

And that misc bonus on spottrac is not a signing bonus. Other players who restructure and have that money converted to a signing bonus it shows it in the signing bonus box. That misc bonus is something else. Incentives, roster bonus perhaps.

Sigh ... I'm not going to debate contract terms we can't even look at. Point is, as far as the team is concerned (cap wise) cutting CWeb would cost them $2-3 million.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 02:55 PM
I'm not sure you're right about guaranteed money. I was under the impression that guaranteed money could also take the form of guaranteed salary over a certain amount of time. In other words, you could have $12MM guaranteed with $8MM being in the form of a signing bonus and the balance in guaranteed pay over (lets say) 3 years.
I'm not positive about this but I am under this impression.

Yes, basically that's how it works. The "guaranteed" portion can be divied up any way the contract specifies. The signing bonus portion is automatically part of the "guaranteed" portion.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:57 PM
I'm not sure you're right about guaranteed money. I was under the impression that guaranteed money could also take the form of guaranteed salary over a certain amount of time. In other words, you could have $12MM guaranteed with $8MM being in the form of a signing bonus and the balance in guaranteed pay over (lets say) 3 years.
I'm not positive about this but I am under this impression.

It can.

If a player is given lets say a contract with $10 guaranteed. And an $8 mil signing bonus. Then the player already has already made 8 of the 10 mil guaranteed. Then once the player makes another 2 mil, from base salary, workout bonus, whatever else, then they reach their 10 mil guaranteed total and if they are then released the team owes them no more money.

Guaranteed money is not a special set aside thing that the player receives. It's just the minimum amount total a player must be paid (in what form is unimportant).

shane4177
02-01-2013, 02:59 PM
Talib would be the best fit because he's played in a very similar system when in TB. also he's big and can tackle.

Almost don't want Talib the way Nicks torched him when we played TB.......and Nicks hasn't been 100% all year!

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 03:02 PM
CWeb got the blame (on these boards and with analysts who didn't actually watch the game) for a lot of stuff that wasn't hit responsibility or fault.

For instance, in the Browns game the first TD pass to AJ Green was over the top of CWeb. Now CWeb kind of gave up his trail technique (and if you wanted to slam him for poor technique on that play fine) but if he had been in PERFECT trail position, that throw and catch was being made. Why? Because there is was no Safety help over the top AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.

It was blown coverage but not by CWeb but by the Safety (Stevie Brown copped to it after the game). Many MANY times during this season (and last season and in 2010 for that matter) we've had bad Safety play in coverage. Usually it's from Rolle, who plays coverages extremely purely (he likes to free lance a lot).

We run a Cover 2 scheme on defense primarily. Almost every time you see blown coverage, it's not the CB but the Safety who is to blame.

That's not to say CWeb didn't have a poor season .... for CWeb. He did. But his play overall (when compared with the rest of the league's CBs) wasn't as poor as is made out to be.i agree. this is much more accurate than trying to say webster would give up 1 big play and be solid the rest of the game for most of the season bc thats just not true, aside from the GB game.
And I totally agree, bc its correct, about ur assessment on how often webster was blamed for a blown coverage by a S (the bengals game u cited is a good example). That said, I acknowledged those blown play TDs, and whether if it was all or partly Websters fault, he was still involved in far too many of them. I mean Prince was playing with the same set of safeties and I cant recall him giving up a TD on a blown coverage. And Prince def. was in plays where a S (Rolle usually) was the culprit for the blown coverage (49er game, deep pass to Moss- Safety blew coverage, but Prince still was in position to ensure the play wasnt any worse).

I don't want to make the mistake of exaggerating one way or the other, but imo, Webster had a HORRENDOUS year by his standards (which are higher bc of the quality corner he is/should be). But I'm in no way ready to give up on him. Everyone wanted him gone leading up to that run of 07 and he turned it around, I believe he can turn it around again. Although, I am under no delusion its a certainty.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 03:02 PM
Sigh ... I'm not going to debate contract terms we can't even look at. Point is, as far as the team is concerned (cap wise) cutting CWeb would cost them $2-3 million.


Well we aren't sure. His numbers are listed as misc bonus. Which could be roster bonus and incentives. In which case all that would clear if he's released.

$875 k is what is listed as his signing bonus under the cap. So it's possibly releasing him just leaves 875k in dead money.

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 03:04 PM
Sigh ... I'm not going to debate contract terms we can't even look at. Point is, as far as the team is concerned (cap wise) cutting CWeb would cost them $2-3 million.ur verbiage is off, at least how Im interpreting it. It wouldnt cost us 2-3 million, it would grant us 5 or so mil to cut him.

like, we wouldnt lose 2-3 mil overall, we'd gain 5 mil or whatever the number is, slip has a good idea of that

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 03:13 PM
It can.

If a player is given lets say a contract with $10 guaranteed. And an $8 mil signing bonus. Then the player already has already made 8 of the 10 mil guaranteed. Then once the player makes another 2 mil, from base salary, workout bonus, whatever else, then they reach their 10 mil guaranteed total and if they are then released the team owes them no more money.

Guaranteed money is not a special set aside thing that the player receives. It's just the minimum amount total a player must be paid (in what form is unimportant).

Here's an article that covers a lot of this. As I said, the "signing bonus" is only one part of "guaranteed money". Its not the only form though.

http://www.ffchamps.com/content/4344/guaranteed-money-inside-look-nfl-players-with-voi

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 03:32 PM
Here's an article that covers a lot of this. As I said, the "signing bonus" is only one part of "guaranteed money". Its not the only form though.

http://www.ffchamps.com/content/4344/guaranteed-money-inside-look-nfl-players-with-voi

All money payed to a player is part of the guaranteed money. The guaranteed money part of a contract is just the minimum amount a team must pay on the contract.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 03:33 PM
All money payed to a player is part of the guaranteed money. The guaranteed money part of a contract is just the minimum amount a team must pay on the contract.
That seems obvious.

ShakeandBake
02-01-2013, 03:38 PM
Almost don't want Talib the way Nicks torched him when we played TB.......and Nicks hasn't been 100% all year!

Huh? Talib was on the Pats this year.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 03:40 PM
Huh? Talib was on the Pats this year.

He got traded. Started the season on the Bucs

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 03:42 PM
He got traded. Started the season on the Bucs

he sure was..and Nicks embarrassed him all day

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 03:45 PM
Well we aren't sure. His numbers are listed as misc bonus. Which could be roster bonus and incentives. In which case all that would clear if he's released.

$875 k is what is listed as his signing bonus under the cap. So it's possibly releasing him just leaves 875k in dead money.

You have it reversed. The misc bonus may or may not count towards the cap. So we may SAVE up to 875k if he were cut. We're still on the hook for his prorated signing bonus of $2.1 million.

So we KNOW that cutting CWeb costs us at least $2.1 mil in dead money against the cap and at most (if the misc bonus is a cap hit) $2.975 million.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 03:46 PM
You have it reversed. The misc bonus may or may not count towards the cap. So we may SAVE up to 875k if he were cut. We're still on the hook for his prorated signing bonus of $2.1 million.

So we KNOW that cutting CWeb costs us at least $2.1 mil in dead money against the cap and at most (if the misc bonus is a cap hit) $2.975 million.
Look at spotrac again. 875k signing bonus and 2.1 misc bonus.

His deal was 6 years with 5.25 mil signing bonus = $875 k per season

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 03:48 PM
You have it reversed. The misc bonus may or may not count towards the cap. So we may SAVE up to 875k if he were cut. We're still on the hook for his prorated signing bonus of $2.1 million.

So we KNOW that cutting CWeb costs us at least $2.1 mil in dead money against the cap and at most (if the misc bonus is a cap hit) $2.975 million.
That "prorated" bonus is just that. But its already been paid. We just one more year of it to apply against the cap.
So it doesn't cost us anything to cut him, BUT, it counts against the cap in 2013.

giantsacks
02-01-2013, 03:54 PM
Lets do it

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 04:00 PM
That "prorated" bonus is just that. But its already been paid. We just one more year of it to apply against the cap.
So it doesn't cost us anything to cut him, BUT, it counts against the cap in 2013.

You just contradicted yourself.

If it counts against the cap, it's "costing" us cap space.

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 04:01 PM
Look at spotrac again. 875k signing bonus and 2.1 misc bonus.

His deal was 6 years with 5.25 mil signing bonus = $875 k per season

Oh wow you're totally right ... I had them reversed. Go go dyslexia!

ShakeandBake
02-01-2013, 04:10 PM
He got traded. Started the season on the Bucs

Ah, my mistake. Went through a move at the beginning of the season and I missed a few games early in the season.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 05:22 PM
You just contradicted yourself.

If it counts against the cap, it's "costing" us cap space.
Well yes in that context but it doesn't cost them any money.
Its also costing me minutes out of my life to argue with you over this but I'm not counting that either.

Drez
02-01-2013, 10:10 PM
The only reason signing bonuses are "guaranteed" is because they are paid up front. Otherwise if paid in installments if he were to be released they would no longer have to pay himNo. If the money is contractually guaranteed then it's guaranteed regardless of the when it gets paid.

Redeyejedi
02-02-2013, 09:45 AM
The first Td to green? Where green was wide open? Webster wasent playing trail at all.

Was all zone. Webster had underneath coverage. Brown came up for the play fake, Webster just stayed in his short zone and green walked in.

While technically the coverage was blown by brown, Webster has some responsibility too there.Is it just me or does that happen often with Webster where the mistake isnt directly his fault but he doesnt ditch his responsibility to cover the mistake that will be more costly to the team. Common sense if the safety isnt there u dont let a WR go into the deep half wide open. maybe they just stick in my mind more because they are so glaring. Didnt it happen with Rolle and Webster same type of thing at the end of the 2011 season

Redeyejedi
02-02-2013, 09:54 AM
Signing bonuses are up front. Not spread out.Is that always true because wasnt Haynesworth contract set up where he got a huge signing bonus in the middle of the deal and the Skins tried to dump it all in the uncapped year thats why they got stripped of cap space

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 10:07 AM
No. If the money is contractually guaranteed then it's guaranteed regardless of the when it gets paid.

It isn't though. It's just paid up front.

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 10:11 AM
Is that always true because wasnt Haynesworth contract set up where he got a huge signing bonus in the middle of the deal and the Skins tried to dump it all in the uncapped year thats why they got stripped of cap space

He had a second year $21 mil option bonus. I believe he only had like a $5 mil signing bonus. But since he had like 40 mil guaranteed they pretty much had to give him that second year option bonus in order to fulfill the guaranteed money. Then they could release him after.

They could have declined to pay the bonus, but they would have owed him 20 something mil anyways, which still would have hit the cap.

river555
02-02-2013, 11:04 AM
The whole defense was terrible. We finished 31st for a reason. So do we also cut Boley, Tuck, Kiwi, Rolle, Canty etc. The only reason why people are so upset with Webster is because at CB his mistakes stand out so much more. But a lot of players had bad seasons even JPP.

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 12:04 PM
The whole defense was terrible. We finished 31st for a reason. So do we also cut Boley, Tuck, Kiwi, Rolle, Canty etc. The only reason why people are so upset with Webster is because at CB his mistakes stand out so much more. But a lot of players had bad seasons even JPP.

I think in fact they do cut Boley. Rolle and Canty may be released as well

DownWitJPP
02-02-2013, 12:08 PM
I think in fact they do cut Boley. Rolle and Canty may be released as well

and we go into the season with Stevie Brown and Will Hill as our safeties? The only was i see Rolle being released is if they re-sign KP

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
and we go into the season with Stevie Brown and Will Hill as our safeties? The only was i see Rolle being released is if they re-sign KP

Well either they release him now, or he is a $10 mil cap hit next season and they cant reduce that number,

gumby74
02-02-2013, 12:37 PM
the thought of 50 thousand additional people riding NJ Transit scares me. NJ Transit is terrible as it is.

Redeyejedi
02-02-2013, 04:25 PM
I think in fact they do cut Boley. Rolle and Canty may be released as well I dont see how they can cut Canty right now. DT's are bad as it is.

EJ Blue
02-02-2013, 04:33 PM
I think in fact they do cut Boley. Rolle and Canty may be released as wellwho will all these people be replaced by?

JesseJames
02-02-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm thinking Webster would have looked a little better this year if the safeties were where they were supposed to be and giving help over the top, too many blown coverages by the safeties exposed our CBs..

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 06:21 PM
who will all these people be replaced by?

The depth the team has.

Otherwise they have no money to replace the 22 free agents they have

Drez
02-02-2013, 10:11 PM
Is it just me or does that happen often with Webster where the mistake isnt directly his fault but he doesnt ditch his responsibility to cover the mistake that will be more costly to the team. Common sense if the safety isnt there u dont let a WR go into the deep half wide open. maybe they just stick in my mind more because they are so glaring. Didnt it happen with Rolle and Webster same type of thing at the end of the 2011 seasonYeah, on the Bryant TD, but that play was borked from word go.

Drez
02-02-2013, 10:14 PM
I dont see how they can cut Canty right now. DT's are bad as it is.Yeah. It's a nice thought, but I don't see how we'd swing it. I'm sure that's one of the thoughts they had when they drafted Austin. But, he hasn't panned out, and Kuhn is still kinda raw and coming off an injury.