PDA

View Full Version : Imagine if we had 2 shutdown corners on both sides



giantsacks
02-01-2013, 10:03 PM
This defense would be stout even with mediocre linebacker play and throw in a solid slot corner teams would be scared yo throw on us ala raiders 06-09 that's the formula for the pass rush to get home even if they are bangd up like tuck was I say we go cornerback in the 1st round and make cweb beat out hosely what u guys think!!!!

GentleGiant
02-01-2013, 10:05 PM
Revis? Shields?

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 10:05 PM
imagine if we had 2 princes. we always seem to have 1 good corner and 1 bad one.

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 10:09 PM
In Fewels system, we need at least two of them.

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-01-2013, 10:10 PM
what wrong with webster? :cool:

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 10:17 PM
what wrong with webster? :cool:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT57NQBCUNE

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 10:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT57NQBCUNEOh that aint nothing. Web can't beat all receivers and Packers have good ones. Where were the other players? They were no where near the qb and everyone is on Webster here.

Rat_bastich
02-01-2013, 11:48 PM
That is 4 corners...way too many at one time.

PRGiant
02-02-2013, 05:23 AM
How many teams have 2 shutdown corners? lol

Giantslb66
02-02-2013, 09:20 AM
I'll take ONE shutdown corner and go from there!

Captain Chaos
02-02-2013, 09:38 AM
You could always hope to get one in the draft!

brad
02-02-2013, 09:39 AM
2 shut-down corners without decent linebackers would just lead to a lot of underneath passes to the TE and third receiver along with a healthy dose of run plays.... pretty much what happens now against this defense.I would prefer to have 3 good corners and 3 good LBs than 2 great corners with below average LBs.

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 09:41 AM
2 shut-down corners without decent linebackers would just lead to a lot of underneath passes to the TE and third receiver along with a healthy dose of run plays.... pretty much what happens now against this defense.I would prefer to have 3 good corners and 3 good LBs than 2 great corners with below average LBs.But two shut down corners also don't need a lot of help so you can use that help for the middle.

brad
02-02-2013, 09:54 AM
But two shut down corners also don't need a lot of help so you can use that help for the middle.

That is what the Eagles thought with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Nnamdi Asomugha... In theory, it sounds great, but the reality is that teams will attack your weakest area and do their best to negate your strength. You also run the risk of putting all of your money, and scheme, into a few players. What happens if one of those gets injured. Now your back to one great CB and still have lousy LBs... only now your safeties aren't able to come up and help.

jomo
02-02-2013, 10:12 AM
The best pass defense is a ferocious pass rush.

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 10:16 AM
That is what the Eagles thought with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Nnamdi Asomugha... In theory, it sounds great, but the reality is that teams will attack your weakest area and do their best to negate your strength. You also run the risk of putting all of your money, and scheme, into a few players. What happens if one of those gets injured. Now your back to one great CB and still have lousy LBs... only now your safeties aren't able to come up and help.

Turns out, the eagles weakest area is in fact Nnamdi and Cromartie. Oops

jomo
02-02-2013, 10:19 AM
That is what the Eagles thought with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Nnamdi Asomugha... In theory, it sounds great, but the reality is that teams will attack your weakest area and do their best to negate your strength. You also run the risk of putting all of your money, and scheme, into a few players. What happens if one of those gets injured. Now your back to one great CB and still have lousy LBs... only now your safeties aren't able to come up and help.No offensive or defensive scheme works without strngth in the trenches, plain and simple. CB's are like WR's in that you don't build a team around them.

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 10:20 AM
That is what the Eagles thought with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Nnamdi Asomugha... In theory, it sounds great, but the reality is that teams will attack your weakest area and do their best to negate your strength. You also run the risk of putting all of your money, and scheme, into a few players. What happens if one of those gets injured. Now your back to one great CB and still have lousy LBs... only now your safeties aren't able to come up and help.Look, in life, there are different scenereos. You said if we have two shut down cbs, then the other teams will target our weakness. I wonder why you think that just cause you have two shut down cbs that our whole defense will be weak all of the time? This is real life and you have to look at football that way. Don't forget you can find late gems in the late rounds. Life is in real time and you think that just cause we have two shut down guys, they will be making big money right away? Cruz the wr was not making a lot of money in 011 and 012 so that gets rid of your theory. Yet you could be right though cause what you have said is one of the things that could happen in life.

brad
02-02-2013, 10:46 AM
Look, in life, there are different scenereos. You said if we have two shut down cbs, then the other teams will target our weakness. I wonder why you think that just cause you have two shut down cbs that our whole defense will be weak all of the time? This is real life and you have to look at football that way. Don't forget you can find late gems in the late rounds. Life is in real time and you think that just cause we have two shut down guys, they will be making big money right away? Cruz the wr was not making a lot of money in 011 and 012 so that gets rid of your theory. Yet you could be right though cause what you have said is one of the things that could happen in life.

My assumption was that this thread was suggesting going out and signing a high priced FA corner. When you use a large part of your cap space for one guy that means you can't use it somewhere else. Always look at all the possibilities and the opportunity cost associated with each. When I look at the possibility of signing 2 shutdown corners, I see a cost that doesn't bring enough return. The cost isn't just the salary associated with that player, but the inability to sign other players in key areas that are far more concerning than the secondary. For example the O-line with 3 of the better linemen looking to get new contracts and an LB corp that is easily the weakest unit on that defense.

The draft is a crap shoot, you can't base your entire defensive philosophy on the off-chance that you will get lucky enough to find a gem like that. It would be awesome if they do, but players like Cruz don't come around very often without being noticed by at least one of the other 32 teams that are also looking for that gem. But, if it should happen... I absolutely approve of getting a shut down corner in the later rounds of the draft! While they are at it, they should also grab a stud MLB...

river555
02-02-2013, 11:06 AM
Imagine if we had a pass rush? It would make life much easier in case you don't have 2 shutdown CBs.

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 11:26 AM
Imagine if we had a pass rush? It would make life much easier in case you don't have 2 shutdown CBs.Hey, I've seen the Giants have a good pass rush but the qb still was able to get rid of the ball at the right time especialy when Strahan was the only one on the line.

JesseJames
02-02-2013, 05:54 PM
having 2 shut down corners would mean that we wouldn't be able to sigh them both next year and we'd be looking for another corner...what we really need is a DT who can pressure from the middle to take away the pocket so the QB can't step up to throw and avoid the rush from the ends, if we had that guy it would help our defense tremendously..

BlueBlooded1979
02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Imagine if we had a DC that knew how to use his personell instead trying to jam round pegs into square holes. Webby is fine when allowed to play physical at the line. Nmandi looked like crap when Philly screwed him up scheme wise.

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 10:24 PM
Imagine if we had a DC that knew how to use his personell instead trying to jam round pegs into square holes. Webby is fine when allowed to play physical at the line. Nmandi looked like crap when Philly screwed him up scheme wise.

Um. http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Packers-WR-Jordy-Nelson-61-yard-TD-catch/3959e875-366d-4234-bdba-1c2300b2e5f6


And Nnamdi has been in decline for years

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 01:15 AM
having 2 shut down corners would mean that we wouldn't be able to sigh them both next year and we'd be looking for another corner...what we really need is a DT who can pressure from the middle to take away the pocket so the QB can't step up to throw and avoid the rush from the ends, if we had that guy it would help our defense tremendously..Not true. We have about 4 D-linmen making a lot of money and the Giants had them for some time. If we can have them then we can have two shut down cbs.

JesseJames
02-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Not true. We have about 4 D-linmen making a lot of money and the Giants had them for some time. If we can have them then we can have two shut down cbs. what you've just said makes no sense in reference to to my post...

KillaRich
02-03-2013, 10:52 AM
I wouldn't mind another cb ...... But I'm not accepting the fact that Webster is completely done.... Lets remember just before this season he was awesome and most of always *****ed how he didn't get the recognition he deserved


He regressed but maybe some if it could be due to his broken hand and didn't he have a nagging hamstring all season ?


Idk I think I'll give him this year and see from there

Rich4114
02-03-2013, 10:55 AM
It would be nice to have two shut down corners but if you've got great pass rushers then it's more important to have good linebackers to help prevent the short pass. By forcing teams to go for the longer routes by WR's it gives our d-line more time to get to the QB. Right now they can pass underneath on our slow LB's all day long and run right up the middle creating 2nd/3rd and shorts too often.

We need to get better at LB first and foremost the more I think about it. I'm hoping Hosley can take a step forward in training camp or we can come up with a great slot corner. Would be pretty nice if TT could make a comeback and be our slot CB. Even if Webster is here next season he won't be after that unless he turns it around in a big way. Then again guys in contract years just seem to come up big so who knows...

brad
02-03-2013, 11:10 AM
Um. http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Packers-WR-Jordy-Nelson-61-yard-TD-catch/3959e875-366d-4234-bdba-1c2300b2e5f6


And Nnamdi has been in decline for years

Looking at that play, something seems to be missing... like a safety? Shouldn't there have been someone over the top on that or did they really put Webby alone on an island with Nelson? I think just about every Giants fan could tell you that Webby isn't good enough to win that battle one on one, I would hope that PF would know that as well!

This is either a great example of a coach putting a player in a position to fail by not understanding their limits, or a great example of how confused that defense is half the time.

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 11:22 AM
Looking at that play, something seems to be missing... like a safety? Shouldn't there have been someone over the top on that or did they really put Webby alone on an island with Nelson? I think just about every Giants fan could tell you that Webby isn't good enough to win that battle one on one, I would hope that PF would know that as well!

This is either a great example of a coach putting a player in a position to fail by not understanding their limits, or a great example of how confused that defense is half the time.

Nothing to do with confusion. Webster had brutally bad technique on that play, like he does on a lot of the plays he gives up.

It just amuses me that people blame Fewell no matter what, first its webster is great when he can press.... So they let him press here and he gets beat for a 73 yard TD. Now its webster cant be one on one with anyone without a safety.

So why even play him then? He makes 9 mil a year and cant cover anyone?

brad
02-03-2013, 11:47 AM
Nothing to do with confusion. Webster had brutally bad technique on that play, like he does on a lot of the plays he gives up.

It just amuses me that people blame Fewell no matter what, first its webster is great when he can press.... So they let him press here and he gets beat for a 73 yard TD. Now its webster cant be one on one with anyone without a safety.

So why even play him then? He makes 9 mil a year and cant cover anyone?

Without salary consideration, looking strictly at the match up, would you put Webby one on one against Nelson? Would you have put him in press coverage knowing that if the pressure didn't get there fast enough that Nelson could potentially beat that press and go deep, and not had a safety over the top? I think we can all agree that Webster didn't have a very good year and Nelson is a going to beat single coverage more often than not, regardless of who is covering him. Yet someone decided he was good enough... or as I said before, a safety missed their assignment, which also happened over and over this past year.

I guess you can look at it two different ways, if you believe coaches are just there as spectators and have no impact on the game because players should just execute, then it's Websters fault. If you believe coaches actually have a purpose, and the schemes/play calling matters, then you see that this play was the perfect defense to give up a huge play to the Packers offense... because believe it or not, they too are paid to perform. Put Nicks or Cruz in that same situation against just about any DB in the league and your almost guaranteed the same result.

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 11:49 AM
Without salary consideration, looking strictly at the match up, would you put Webby one on one against Nelson?

Absolutely. All corners have to be able to do that if they are a starting outside corner. Cant give everyone help.

And there is no safety that missed their assignment, I watched the play on all-22 film.

Its just horrible technique by webster, and this is basic stuff. In press man when a receiver pulls up, you dont get in front of him until the ball is on its way, all he had to do was stay behind nelson and that play never would have happened.

brad
02-03-2013, 11:55 AM
Absolutely. All corners have to be able to do that if they are a starting outside corner. Cant give everyone help.

Then your results would have been the same... I would have looked for something that actually worked.

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 12:01 PM
Then your results would have been the same... I would have looked for something that actually worked.

Unless they had a CB who actually played proper technique, then it wouldnt have.

Thats the thing with webster, he shows all the ability to shut down guys but just completely forgets his technique once in awhile.

I just dont understand how people expect the giants to give help to every player on the defense.... Thats not possible.

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Unless they had a CB who actually played proper technique, then it wouldnt have.

Thats the thing with webster, he shows all the ability to shut down guys but just completely forgets his technique once in awhile.

I just dont understand how people expect the giants to give help to every player on the defense.... Thats not possible.You are right about that. There gots to be one on one battles on every play depending on the type of play that is called by the offense.

brad
02-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Absolutely. All corners have to be able to do that if they are a starting outside corner. Cant give everyone help.

And there is no safety that missed their assignment, I watched the play on all-22 film.

Its just horrible technique by webster, and this is basic stuff. In press man when a receiver pulls up, you dont get in front of him until the ball is on its way, all he had to do was stay behind nelson and that play never would have happened.

You added to your reply...

I agree that Web messed up on the play and am not arguing that he got beat plain and simple. Eli takes those shots to Nicks and Cruz anytime either one of them gets a one on one matchup. I would bet that when it works you praise Eli and the receiver and when it doesn't you blame Eli and the receiver. I doubt you ever say that the DB messed up.

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 12:22 PM
You added to your reply...

I agree that Web messed up on the play and am not arguing that he got beat plain and simple. Eli takes those shots to Nicks and Cruz anytime either one of them gets a one on one matchup. I would bet that when it works you praise Eli and the receiver and when it doesn't you blame Eli and the receiver. I doubt you ever say that the DB messed up.

Depends on what goes on in the play.

In this case, Nelson just did a double move, he didnt have to make some leaping catch over the defender, nor did Rodgers have to make a perfect throw.

Nothing particularly special about what Nelson did.

Brutal technique by the DB is what caused this.

Had webster played it correctly, and Nelson made some jumping catch over him then I wouldnt fault webster at all.

Just like I dont bash webster for the ravens game, those were perfect throws and great plays by Torrey Smith.

YATittle1962
02-03-2013, 12:43 PM
Depends on what goes on in the play.

In this case, Nelson just did a double move, he didnt have to make some leaping catch over the defender, nor did Rodgers have to make a perfect throw.

Nothing particularly special about what Nelson did.

Brutal technique by the DB is what caused this.

Had webster played it correctly, and Nelson made some jumping catch over him then I wouldnt fault webster at all.

Just like I dont bash webster for the ravens game, those were perfect throws and great plays by Torrey Smith.

this is dead on gospel

brad
02-03-2013, 12:58 PM
Depends on what goes on in the play.

In this case, Nelson just did a double move, he didnt have to make some leaping catch over the defender, nor did Rodgers have to make a perfect throw.

Nothing particularly special about what Nelson did.

Brutal technique by the DB is what caused this.

Had webster played it correctly, and Nelson made some jumping catch over him then I wouldnt fault webster at all.

Just like I dont bash webster for the ravens game, those were perfect throws and great plays by Torrey Smith.

I don't disagree with you... my point is that this happened quite often throughout the season. In this case he was on an island against a highly explosive player, and pretty much anyone in the stadium knew that wasn't going to work out well. Webster 2011 probably makes that play, Webster 2012 failed to make that play more often than not. I don't care what his salary is, nor should the coaches. They should have known what most fans already knew, Webster wasn't playing well enough to make that play, or many like it all year. Yes you can't criticize Webster for playing poorly, and you would be right. You can also criticize the coaches for continuing to do the same things and getting the same results which led to one of the worst defenses in the NFL.

If the coaches start asking Eli to scramble like RGIII and he can't do it, is that Eli's fault or the coaches? If the coaches allow an injured Nicks to continue to play even when it is clear he can't perform, is that the coaches fault or the players? The player is always going to try to play, the coaches need to determine if that player is capable of giving them the best chance to win. Coaching decisions and plays called do have an impact on player performance, and the teams performance as a whole.

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 12:59 PM
The coaches cant insulate webster and give him help all season, its just not possible to do that with an outside corner. About all they could do is give him some help deep middle on most plays.

To be a starting NFL CB you HAVE to be able to win one on one battles against top WRs. Nelson was really GBs #3 receiver. Yes hes good, but its not like he was the one guy the giants had to go into the game worried about.

They left prince alone on Jones for a lot of that game as well, as they paid more attention to Cobb.

brad
02-03-2013, 01:15 PM
The coaches cant insulate webster and give him help all season, its just not possible to do that with an outside corner. About all they could do is give him some help deep middle on most plays.

To be a starting NFL CB you HAVE to be able to win one on one battles against top WRs. Nelson was really GBs #3 receiver. Yes hes good, but its not like he was the one guy the giants had to go into the game worried about.

They left prince alone on Jones for a lot of that game as well, as they paid more attention to Cobb.

And for the most part, it worked... IMO, the defensive scheme and execution in that game was pretty good. I agree that to be a starting NFL CB you have to win those one on one battles, or at least most of them, because even the best are going to give up a play here or there. You and I seem to be having two different discussions though, I don't question that he should make those plays as a starting CB, he should, but clearly did not for the majority of the season. What I am saying is that at some point the coaches should have realized he was playing poorly and rather than continuing to allow that they should have looked for a different solution at some point in the season. You can argue it is Websters fault for not executing, I will argue that it is the coaches fault that they didn't do anything about it. The reality is, it is both.