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View Full Version : So is Coughlin in or out of hof



JaxMan
02-02-2013, 07:28 PM
Not a whose better thread but with 2 Super Bowl victories as well, along with the whole expansion team to AFC championship, he has a parcell-esque resume, would you vote him in, yay or nay ? He has bested a sure shot hof coach twice, has to count for something.
I say yay, the improbable sb win of 07 in my mind weighs heavy. So how about it.

drewz
02-02-2013, 07:37 PM
not first ballot

G-Men Surg.
02-02-2013, 07:37 PM
For a lot of people he could be a shoe in the HOF but taking in count so many variables and waiting list its difficult to see him in it. That been said the veredict still out on TC and for sure he still writting his own history, still a lot pages left to fill in whats been a great coaching career.

Pksoze
02-02-2013, 07:53 PM
If he wins the SB next year he will be ;).

Cloud57
02-02-2013, 07:55 PM
HOF?? let's try to make the playoffs :D

G-Men Surg.
02-02-2013, 08:13 PM
Few give notice to the FACT that old Tom Coughlin is in 6th place in the history of the NFL in total playoffs victories. That stat along is darn impressive !

FBomb
02-02-2013, 08:14 PM
I don't think it's a lock yet. I don't even think Eli is a lock yet.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 08:31 PM
Don't we have to wait for him to retire in ten years?

Toadofsteel
02-02-2013, 08:32 PM
Even more than his victories with the Giants, the fact that he took freaking Jacksonville to the title game with Mark freaking Brunell (aka the guy that couldn't beat out SANCHEZ) as their QB, in only their second year of existence... that takes some serious awesomeness in the football world...

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 08:33 PM
Even more than his victories with the Giants, the fact that he took freaking Jacksonville to the title game with Mark freaking Brunell as their QB, in only their second year of existence... that takes some serious awesomeness in the football world...

He really is a good coach

fletch842
02-02-2013, 08:50 PM
Even more than his victories with the Giants, the fact that he took freaking Jacksonville to the title game with Mark freaking Brunell (aka the guy that couldn't beat out SANCHEZ) as their QB, in only their second year of existence... that takes some serious awesomeness in the football world...
yep, between building Jacksonville, and winning it all twice (hopefully more to come) here, he's in a really good spot.

Drez
02-02-2013, 10:07 PM
If he retired today, he'd make it in. Probably not a first ballot guy, but he'd get in eventually. He's got 2 SB wins and took an expansion franchise to the AFCCG in year 2.

nhpgiantsfan
02-02-2013, 11:18 PM
Borderline right now. One more SB makes him a lock. His personality and character will help his case also. He's one of those guys that always does the right thing..

EJ Blue
02-03-2013, 02:06 AM
I don't know. He's won 2 super bowls, but the years when he doesn't win super bowls, the team is either terrible, mediocre, or under-achieving. If Coughlin deserves to be a Hall of Famer, then so does Mike Tomlin.

BuffyBlueII
02-03-2013, 02:55 AM
I think coach Coughlin goes in to Hof and I think he deserves to go in on first ballot. However, I will not be surprised if he doesn't go in on 1st ballot.

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 03:02 AM
Nope he shouldn't get in until he wins another Superbowl or gets other Championships.

MikeyMike01
02-03-2013, 05:19 AM
I wouldn't put him in at all.

nhpgiantsfan
02-03-2013, 09:00 AM
I don't know. He's won 2 super bowls, but the years when he doesn't win super bowls, the team is either terrible, mediocre, or under-achieving. If Coughlin deserves to be a Hall of Famer, then so does Mike Tomlin.

Mike Tomlin??. He has only won one SB so far, and didn't take an expansion team to the AFC championship game in its second year. I like Tomlin but he doesn't have Coughlin's body of work yet.

Captain Chaos
02-03-2013, 09:07 AM
If he notches another SB I think he will be in, thats a tall order....

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 09:21 AM
I wouldn't put him in at all.

There's a surprise

SweetZombieJesus
02-03-2013, 09:51 AM
I don't know. He's won 2 super bowls, but the years when he doesn't win super bowls, the team is either terrible, mediocre, or under-achieving. If Coughlin deserves to be a Hall of Famer, then so does Mike Tomlin.

When you look at the list of coaches who won multiple Super Bowls (I'm too lazy to recreate it now, it's Sunday morning, have mercy) it's really an impressive list of the elite and there are only a handfull that aren't in. Mike Tomlin hasn't won multiple SBs, by the way.

I think the list of multiple winners not in the HoF include Shannahan (who is still active), Tom Florez, and I'm missing another I think. Coughlin is better than those guys so he's in.

Maybe like Eli he's not in the A+ elite because of lack of consistency, but right below in the A class.

KillaRich
02-03-2013, 10:37 AM
He is def a hof coach ..... First ballot most likely not ..... Maybe 2nd or 3rd ..... If he gets another ring or 2 then first ballot def comes to play

brad
02-03-2013, 11:00 AM
I think part of what makes a HOF coach is their legacy, how many HC they have in "their tree". Parcells obviously has an incredible number of current and successful coaches that started out with or worked for him, not the least of which would be Coughlin and Belichick. I think Coughlin is very likely in the HOF at some point just because of his achievements, but his "tree" isn't exactly impressive which probably makes it more difficult.

That being said, Coughlin isn't finished yet, he could achieve a lot more before he is finished.

juice33s
02-03-2013, 11:16 AM
I don't think it's a lock yet. I don't even think Eli is a lock yet.
Right, because the hall of fame is loaded with multiple winning Superbowl coaches...oh wait, nope there have only been 11 in history. He has the same amount of Superbowl wins as Bill Parcells, Tom landry, Don Shula and Vince Lombardi

giantsforce
02-03-2013, 01:45 PM
Not a whose better thread but with 2 Super Bowl victories as well, along with the whole expansion team to AFC championship, he has a parcell-esque resume, would you vote him in, yay or nay ? He has bested a sure shot hof coach twice, has to count for something.
I say yay, the improbable sb win of 07 in my mind weighs heavy. So how about it.If it took Parcells 4 tries to get in, I'd say Coughlin maybe will get in in his 10th try. I think all the 2nd half collapses will play a significant role since it is his only constant trademark.

giantsforce
02-03-2013, 01:48 PM
Right, because the hall of fame is loaded with multiple winning Superbowl coaches...oh wait, nope there have only been 11 in history. He has the same amount of Superbowl wins as Bill Parcells, Tom landry, Don Shula and Vince LombardiBut also he has far more 2nd half collapses and mediocre showings than anyone of the ones you mentioned. I have not seen any of the teams these coaches led, collapse as many times as Coughlin's teams have.

BigBlue1971
02-03-2013, 02:10 PM
i think TC gets into the hof! a two time superbowl winning coach with outstanding credentials!

maybe not the 1st time but eventually....yea hes there!

gmen46
02-03-2013, 04:38 PM
If it took Parcells 4 tries to get in, I'd say Coughlin maybe will get in in his 10th try. I think all the 2nd half collapses will play a significant role since it is his only constant trademark.

It took Parcells 2--not 4--tries to get into the HOF. Last year (following 2011 season) was his first ballot nomination.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 05:08 PM
I don't know. He's won 2 super bowls, but the years when he doesn't win super bowls, the team is either terrible, mediocre, or under-achieving. If Coughlin deserves to be a Hall of Famer, then so does Mike Tomlin.

I disagree, the team was only under .500 once since Tom has been HC, and has been to the playoffs 5 times with 2 superbowl wins.

gmen46
02-03-2013, 05:29 PM
But also he has far more 2nd half collapses and mediocre showings than anyone of the ones you mentioned. I have not seen any of the teams these coaches led, collapse as many times as Coughlin's teams have.

Of all the criterion used by the HOF committee to vote in a HC, this is one of the least--if not the least--considered. When have you ever heard of a HC's career judged by number of wins in a specific month or particular time of the season? Never.

He's judged by his total reg season record, his total post season record, his total reg season wins, his total post season wins, his number of championships played in and his number of championships won.

Coughlin has not yet retired, so his complete career can not yet be judged in its fullness, obviously.

However, Coughlin has been HC, of 2 teams, for 17 years so far. Parcells coached 4 teams for a total of 19 seasons.

Coughlin so far, has a reg season record of 151-121 (.555).
Parcells had a reg season record of 172-130-1 (.568)
------10th in NFL history in reg season wins

Coughlin has a career (2 teams) post season record, so far, of 12-7 (.632)
Parcells has a career (4 teams) post season record of 11-8 (.579)

Coughlin has a career (again, so far) combined reg season and post season record of 163-128 (.560)
Parcells has a career combined reg season and post season record of 183-138-1 (.568)
------- 10th in NFL history in total combined wins

Coughlin took both his teams to post seasons, and both to Conference Championships (2-2 record))
**Parcells is the only HC in NFL history to take 4 teams to the post season, taking 3 of them to 4 Conference Championships (with 3-1 record)

Coughlin has a 2-0 Super Bowl record with 1 team.
Parcells has a 2-1 Super Bowl record with 2 teams.

Coughlin's career is nearing its end, but is not over. He has at minimum 1 more year, possibly more before calling it quits. He's not quite even with Parcells--whose career IS over--as a HC, but he's damn close in those achievements that count.

The real OP question is-- will Coughlin qualify for the HOF when his career is finished?.

The prevailing sentiment--with which I agree--is that since, as an active NFL HC, he very nearly qualifies already by simply comparing him to the qualifications of the recently elected Parcells, Coughlin will be voted into the HOF, and justifiably so.

It does not matter whether he will be a first ballot selection, he will get in.


And it sure as hell does not matter how many so-called "late season collapses" you like to point to.

nycisgreat
02-03-2013, 11:07 PM
Not a whose better thread but with 2 Super Bowl victories as well, along with the whole expansion team to AFC championship, he has a parcell-esque resume, would you vote him in, yay or nay ? He has bested a sure shot hof coach twice, has to count for something.
I say yay, the improbable sb win of 07 in my mind weighs heavy. So how about it.

Coughlin is definitely a HOF coach. He has had plenty of success with two teams, and a couple of superbowls to go with it.

JJC7301
02-04-2013, 11:26 AM
Yes, but not 1st ballot. At least not yet -- if he just gets to another SB, then absolutely 1st ballot.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:19 PM
only issue i see is that he tends to shut out the media(good reason) they may hold that grudge.

giantsforce
02-04-2013, 12:23 PM
It took Parcells 2--not 4--tries to get into the HOF. Last year (following 2011 season) was his first ballot nomination. here you go, read this and then tell me where you got your facts http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20130202/SPORTS01/302020093/Football-Hall-Fame-adds-seven
Here is a sample quote: "Getting in on his fourth try, Parcells led an induction class that also included mouthy defensive lineman Warren Sapp, prolific receiver Cris Carter and a pair of stalwarts from the trenches, offensive linemen Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen."

nhpgiantsfan
02-04-2013, 01:00 PM
Yes, but not 1st ballot. At least not yet -- if he just gets to another SB, then absolutely 1st ballot.

After paying attention this week and actually seeing how it works, I will never count anyone as a lock for first ballot HOF.

JayMas9
02-04-2013, 03:13 PM
here you go, read this and then tell me where you got your facts http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20130202/SPORTS01/302020093/Football-Hall-Fame-adds-seven
Here is a sample quote: "Getting in on his fourth try, Parcells led an induction class that also included mouthy defensive lineman Warren Sapp, prolific receiver Cris Carter and a pair of stalwarts from the trenches, offensive linemen Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen."That article is wrong, you're eligible for the hall 5 years after retirement...Parcell's retired from coaching after the 2006 season, last year was his first year of eligibility. Whoever wrote that article screwed up.

JaxMan
02-04-2013, 05:32 PM
only issue i see is that he tends to shut out the media(good reason) they may hold that grudge.

That casts doubt, parcell wasn't a sweetheart either, TC has loosened up a bit of late might help .

JaxMan
02-04-2013, 05:35 PM
Of all the criterion used by the HOF committee to vote in a HC, this is one of the least--if not the least--considered. When have you ever heard of a HC's career judged by number of wins in a specific month or particular time of the season? Never.

He's judged by his total reg season record, his total post season record, his total reg season wins, his total post season wins, his number of championships played in and his number of championships won.

Coughlin has not yet retired, so his complete career can not yet be judged in its fullness, obviously.

However, Coughlin has been HC, of 2 teams, for 17 years so far. Parcells coached 4 teams for a total of 19 seasons.

Coughlin so far, has a reg season record of 151-121 (.555).
Parcells had a reg season record of 172-130-1 (.568)
------10th in NFL history in reg season wins

Coughlin has a career (2 teams) post season record, so far, of 12-7 (.632)
Parcells has a career (4 teams) post season record of 11-8 (.579)

Coughlin has a career (again, so far) combined reg season and post season record of 163-128 (.560)
Parcells has a career combined reg season and post season record of 183-138-1 (.568)
------- 10th in NFL history in total combined wins

Coughlin took both his teams to post seasons, and both to Conference Championships (2-2 record))
**Parcells is the only HC in NFL history to take 4 teams to the post season, taking 3 of them to 4 Conference Championships (with 3-1 record)

Coughlin has a 2-0 Super Bowl record with 1 team.
Parcells has a 2-1 Super Bowl record with 2 teams.

Coughlin's career is nearing its end, but is not over. He has at minimum 1 more year, possibly more before calling it quits. He's not quite even with Parcells--whose career IS over--as a HC, but he's damn close in those achievements that count.

The real OP question is-- will Coughlin qualify for the HOF when his career is finished?.

The prevailing sentiment--with which I agree--is that since, as an active NFL HC, he very nearly qualifies already by simply comparing him to the qualifications of the recently elected Parcells, Coughlin will be voted into the HOF, and justifiably so.

It does not matter whether he will be a first ballot selection, he will get in.


And it sure as hell does not matter how many so-called "late season collapses" you like to point to.

Boo yeah haha like I said parcell- esque resume, the question does pertain to when he retires, I just wanted to gauge opinion, since so many fans seem down in him, do they not thank the heavens for another great head coach in charge of this team.

JaxMan
02-04-2013, 05:36 PM
Don't we have to wait for him to retire in ten years?
Yeah but seasons over and not much else to occupy my time, so decided to start something, Cruz and cap stores are just too gloomy to read.

gmen46
02-04-2013, 08:38 PM
Boo yeah haha like I said parcell- esque resume, the question does pertain to when he retires, I just wanted to gauge opinion, since so many fans seem down in him, do they not thank the heavens for another great head coach in charge of this team.

As was the case while Simms was active as our QB, there are always those fans who don't recognize--and appreciate and enjoy--what they see in front of their eyes. It's sad, really.

Both Eli and Coughlin are cases in point. Both have more they will achieve, since they both are still active. And both have First Class tickets on the plane to Canton.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 08:47 PM
While I like TC a lot and think that he's a very good coach, I don't think he quite makes it at this point.
As another poster has said...yes he's won 2 SB's and we are all very appreciative of him in leading those teams, in the seasons where he doesn't, his teams here have been under performing, inconsistent, mistake prone, and have even shown a bit of quit in them. And while he has a reputation for discipline, its always been surprising that his teams have so often played with a lack of discipline.

So..... Good coach?...Yes.
Glad he's our coach?....Yes
Hall Of Fame (and therefore all time great) coach? .... Not really.

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 08:59 PM
While I like TC a lot and think that he's a very good coach, I don't think he quite makes it at this point.
As another poster has said...yes he's won 2 SB's and we are all very appreciative of him in leading those teams, in the seasons where he doesn't, his teams here have been under performing, inconsistent, mistake prone, and have even shown a bit of quit in them. And while he has a reputation for discipline, its always been surprising that his teams have so often played with a lack of discipline.

So..... Good coach?...Yes.
Glad he's our coach?....Yes
Hall Of Fame (and therefore all time great) coach? .... Not really.

Fortunately you don't vote lol

You can't ignore what he did in Jacksonville. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but he took an expansion team and made history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin#Jacksonville_Jaguars

Excerpt: "In eight seasons at Jacksonville, he helmed the most successful expansion team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_team) in league history. During Coughlin's tenure, the Jaguars went to the AFC Championship Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game) twice, the first time being only the second year of the team's existence, and for that season (1996), he was named NFL Coach of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) by United Press International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International). Coughlin would again take the Jaguars to the AFC Championship Game in 1999 after achieving a league-high 14–2 regular season record. However, in both appearances in the championship game, the Jaguars were defeated: in 1996 by the New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots), and in 1999, by the Tennessee Titans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Titans)." Read more...

gmen46
02-04-2013, 09:04 PM
here you go, read this and then tell me where you got your facts http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20130202/SPORTS01/302020093/Football-Hall-Fame-adds-seven
Here is a sample quote: "Getting in on his fourth try, Parcells led an induction class that also included mouthy defensive lineman Warren Sapp, prolific receiver Cris Carter and a pair of stalwarts from the trenches, offensive linemen Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen."

Paul Schwartz, Giants beat writer for NYPost since 1994. You might want to trust his word more than someone who is copy and pasting unconfirmed misinformation for something like The Tennessean.

Exerpt:
NEW ORLEANS – John Mara was hoping for a Big Blue summer in Canton.
“It's a pretty cool feeling,’’ said Mara, the Giants’ co-owner. “I'd love to see them both there this summer."
Mara didn’t get his entire wish and as a result, the Pro Football Hall of Fame did not get brushed with as much (Big) blue as he desired. It was a proud day but not a banner day for the franchise, as Bill Parcells, the Giants former head coach, was elected into the hallowed halls but Michael Strahan, the outstanding defensive end, was denied a place among the Class of 2013 ready for enshrinement.
This no doubt shocked Mara. “To me, Michael is kind of a no-brainer,’’ Mara said a few days before the Hall of Fame Selection Committee met and voted. “Very few people played the position at the same level that he did. I think he's one of those few people that deserves to get in in his first year of eligibility.’’
Strahan made it to the final 10 but did not survive to the cut-down to five. He was in his first year of eligibility. Parcells got in in his second year of eligibility.


Read more: Parcells elected, Strahan snubbed in football Hall of Fame vote http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/giantsblog/parcells_elected_strahan_snubbed_afJxWpx0e2Oi9qk74 xrbzO#ixzz2JyxwfFQQ

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 09:08 PM
Fortunately you don't vote lol

You can't ignore what he did in Jacksonville. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but he took an expansion team and made history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin#Jacksonville_Jaguars

Excerpt: "In eight seasons at Jacksonville, he helmed the most successful expansion team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_team) in league history. During Coughlin's tenure, the Jaguars went to the AFC Championship Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game) twice, the first time being only the second year of the team's existence, and for that season (1996), he was named NFL Coach of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) by United Press International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International). Coughlin would again take the Jaguars to the AFC Championship Game in 1999 after achieving a league-high 14–2 regular season record. However, in both appearances in the championship game, the Jaguars were defeated: in 1996 by the New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots), and in 1999, by the Tennessee Titans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Titans)." Read more...
He did a great job in Jax. But again...his teams had some "defective" issues after they established themselves. Maybe his problem is that he's a great underdog but he's a lousy front runner. Maybe successful teams tune him out. He did have 2 lousy seasons in Jax before he got fired. (and he WAS fired)

That 1999 Jax team was awesome, and they got spanked in the championship game. That's kind of vintage Coughlin. Lousy frontrunner.

And I should be the sole HOF voter. Guys like Randall Cunningham would be in.

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 09:11 PM
He did a great job in Jax. But again...his teams had some "defective" issues after they established themselves. Maybe his problem is that he's a great underdog but he's a lousy front runner. Maybe successful teams tune him out. He did have 2 lousy seasons in Jax before he got fired. (and he WAS fired)

That 1999 Jax team was awesome, and they got spanked in the championship game. That's kind of vintage Coughlin. Lousy frontrunner.

And I should be the sole HOF voter. Guys like Randall Cunningham would be in.

Put the brew down, you're flagged

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 09:16 PM
Put the brew down, you're flagged

Oh yeah....and speaking of TC and the HOF....if I had a vote I'd put the greatest LT of all time, Tony Boselli into the Hall.

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 09:18 PM
Oh yeah....and speaking of TC and the HOF....if I had a vote I'd put the greatest LT of all time, Tony Boselli into the Hall.

We need to petition the HOF to get you credentialed

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 09:20 PM
We need to petition the HOF to get you credentialed
Should be a snap.

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 09:23 PM
Should be a snap.

Harooni gets the final say

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 09:24 PM
Harooni gets the final say
Now I know I'm in.

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 09:25 PM
Now I know I'm in.

He can be tough.....well, not TOUGH

gmen46
02-04-2013, 10:10 PM
He did a great job in Jax. But again...his teams had some "defective" issues after they established themselves. Maybe his problem is that he's a great underdog but he's a lousy front runner. Maybe successful teams tune him out. He did have 2 lousy seasons in Jax before he got fired. (and he WAS fired)

That 1999 Jax team was awesome, and they got spanked in the championship game. That's kind of vintage Coughlin. Lousy frontrunner.

And I should be the sole HOF voter. Guys like Randall Cunningham would be in.

Yeah, Coughlin was fired. And Wayne Weaver, a couple years before selling the Jags to "Shad" Khan last year, also said that was the biggest mistake of his ownership.Hey, Tom Landry was fired too, after helming a couple losing seasons at the end of his tenure. I guess that disqualified him from the HOF too.

FlyingTruck
02-04-2013, 10:19 PM
If he does coach for another 10 years, gets us into the playoffs at least 6 of those 10 years, and gets us another SB or 2, then yes.

JaxMan
02-04-2013, 11:03 PM
If he does coach for another 10 years, gets us into the playoffs at least 6 of those 10 years, and gets us another SB or 2, then yes.

I will take that as a no from you then, playoffs superbowls, not cakewalks , fielding a competitive team each year should count fr something(excluding at times this year), if he gets a Super Bowl or 2 he's boasting bellichick numbers, talking goat rather than just hof there.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 07:31 AM
Yeah, Coughlin was fired. And Wayne Weaver, a couple years before selling the Jags to "Shad" Khan last year, also said that was the biggest mistake of his ownership.Hey, Tom Landry was fired too, after helming a couple losing seasons at the end of his tenure. I guess that disqualified him from the HOF too.
I don't remember saying that at all. But I'll double check.


Nope....Didn't say that getting fired disqualified you from the Hall.

RoanokeFan
02-05-2013, 07:57 AM
I don't remember saying that at all. But I'll double check.


Nope....Didn't say that getting fired disqualified you from the Hall.

Are you absotively positive?

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 11:30 AM
Are you absotively positive?

So many guys are obsessed with the HOF. To me, its not the ultimate destination. The ultimate destination is the next game. The next win.
The Hall is something to contemplate after a career is over.
This notion that "if he gets one more championship he's in" or "If Eli has 5 more good seasons he's in"...is all silly to me.
Your either great or your not. The Hall is for the truly great. Gail Sayers is in the Hall and never had great stats and never won a damned thing. But he was great.
To much recognition for the accumulation of stats these days.

TroyArcher
02-05-2013, 12:00 PM
Has any head coach with Two SB victories not made the HOF?

45Jones
02-05-2013, 12:30 PM
I'd say based on his work in Jax and 2 SB's with the Giants in with no doubt.

That doesn't mean I won't yell and cuss him if I disagree with an in-game decision next year.:p

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 12:31 PM
Has any head coach with Two SB victories not made the HOF?
Yes.

Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson
Obviously Mike Shanahan and Bell Belechick as well but they aren't yet eligible.

RoanokeFan
02-05-2013, 12:56 PM
So many guys are obsessed with the HOF. To me, its not the ultimate destination. The ultimate destination is the next game. The next win.
The Hall is something to contemplate after a career is over.
This notion that "if he gets one more championship he's in" or "If Eli has 5 more good seasons he's in"...is all silly to me.
Your either great or your not. The Hall is for the truly great. Gail Sayers is in the Hall and never had great stats and never won a damned thing. But he was great.
To much recognition for the accumulation of stats these days.

Which is why all of this talk about Eli, TC, and whoever else, is meaningless. It's determined by the person's entire body of work and they aren't there yet. I predict Eli will retire before TC

gmen46
02-05-2013, 03:02 PM
I don't remember saying that at all. But I'll double check.


Nope....Didn't say that getting fired disqualified you from the Hall.

You imply it by including it in your response. You know you did, I know you did, and you know I know you did. If you genuinely do not think it's a factor (which I agree with if you do not think it), then why even raise the issue?

gmen46
02-05-2013, 03:59 PM
So many guys are obsessed with the HOF. To me, its not the ultimate destination. The ultimate destination is the next game. The next win.
The Hall is something to contemplate after a career is over.
This notion that "if he gets one more championship he's in" or "If Eli has 5 more good seasons he's in"...is all silly to me.
Your either great or your not. The Hall is for the truly great. Gail Sayers is in the Hall and never had great stats and never won a damned thing. But he was great.
To much recognition for the accumulation of stats these days.

Of course the HOF is something to contemplate--by the actual HOF voters--after a career is over. But this subject is one that fans --non voters--constantly raise about one player, coach, or another. You obviously know that. This self-evident response ("his career is not yet complete") is something I see repeatedly whenever a poster is not satisfied with multiple opposing views on the matter and is unable to shut down the debate with his/her own arguments.

But this thread--like many on this board--is a "what if" discussion, in this case about a coach we have a vested interest in by virtue of him being the Giants HC for 9 years and counting. I know I'm stating the obvious to you, but why did you even go down that road?

I agree wholeheartedly with "you're either great or not" criteria for HOF discussions, but not with your easy dismissal of "accumulation of stats" as at least A criteria to factor in. How else does one begin to evaluate a player or coach as being "great" in relation to his peers? "Gut feeling"? Your own exclusive "feeling" and special criterion? On your own unique, isolated, planet, that would work. Not on planet Earth.

Interesting choice of Sayers as a player to make your point. He happens to be one of my favorite RB of all-time. In my opinion, he ranks in the top 3 NFL RBs of all time, along with Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. But that's my opinion, isn't it? There are others who have justifiable arguments in favor of other Top 3 status for RB.

And Sayers ranks in my Top 3 precisely because of your point of abstract greatness. Many like me who actually experienced his performances at the time are incapable of forgetting his physical poetry on the field (his personal character is/was not bad either).

But because his career was unfortunately ultimately shortened by his injury, his inclusion in the HOF is an exception to the usual HOF selections (after all, who knows what Sayers would have accomplished if sports medicine technology were what it is today, and if the seasons were 16 games vs 12 and 14?).

The fact is he played in the time he did, and the fact he's in the Hall is a reflection of how exceptional he was in only 5 full seasons and the impact he had on fans' consciousness--then, and even now. If you were to hold Sayers as the standard by which the HOF is shaped, there would be hundreds of current HOF members not in the Hall today

And maybe that would be a good thing. I know YA thinks so. He's probably right.

But, since there are not, and have not been, very many NFL players and coaches that performed at the truly other-wordly level of Sayers, other criteria has been established over the years to enable voters--some of whom watched little, if any, of some candidates aside from NFL Films selected highlights--to at least attempt some form of fair comparisons and contrasts. Stats are a subsection of criterion that all the voters use in their very subjective decisions, in an attempt to be at least somewhat "objective" in their selection and voting process. It's not without personal bias and a bit of favoritism on the part of individual voters, but the use of stats at least forms some common ground for all to agree or not agree upon.

And in that context, it is not a stretch to raise the question of HOF future status prematurely concerning Coughlin. The comparison of Coughlin's successes as a Giants HC to those of Parcells in his Giants tenure as HC, after Parcells was just voted into the Hall, is certainly understandable. And because many points of criterion evaluating Parcells 19 year career as a HC are not far removed from Coughlin's 17 year career so far, in my view it is not a stretch to conclude that Coughlin is well on his way to the Hall, even though he has some more accomplishments to achieve. The arc of his career so far strongly indicates he will earn that spot.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 04:01 PM
You imply it by including it in your response. You know you did, I know you did, and you know I know you did. If you genuinely do not think it's a factor (which I agree with if you do not think it), then why even raise the issue?
I didn't say it wasn't a factor. But its hardly a disqualifier for the Hall.
You see what you want. Whatever makes you happy.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 04:10 PM
Of course the HOF is something to contemplate--by the actual HOF voters--after a career is over. But this subject is one that fans --non voters--constantly raise about one player, coach, or another. You obviously know that. This self-evident response ("his career is not yet complete") is something I see repeatedly whenever a poster is not satisfied with multiple opposing views on the matter and is unable to shut down the debate with his/her own arguments.

But this thread--like many on this board--is a "what if" discussion, in this case about a coach we have a vested interest in by virtue of him being the Giants HC for 9 years and counting. I know I'm stating the obvious to you, but why did you even go down that road?

I agree wholeheartedly with "you're either great or not" criteria for HOF discussions, but not with your easy dismissal of "accumulation of stats" as at least A criteria to factor in. How else does one begin to evaluate a player or coach as being "great" in relation to his peers? "Gut feeling"? Your own exclusive "feeling" and special criterion? On your own unique, isolated, planet, that would work. Not on planet Earth.

Interesting choice of Sayers as a player to make your point. He happens to be one of my favorite RB of all-time. In my opinion, he ranks in the top 3 NFL RBs of all time, along with Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. But that's my opinion, isn't it? There are others who have justifiable arguments in favor of other Top 3 status for RB.

And Sayers ranks in my Top 3 precisely because of your point of abstract greatness. Many like me who actually experienced his performances at the time are incapable of forgetting his physical poetry on the field (his personal character is/was not bad either).

But because his career was unfortunately ultimately shortened by his injury, his inclusion in the HOF is an exception to the usual HOF selections (after all, who knows what Sayers would have accomplished if sports medicine technology were what it is today, and if the seasons were 16 games vs 12 and 14?).

The fact is he played in the time he did, and the fact he's in the Hall is a reflection of how exceptional he was in only 5 full seasons and the impact he had on fans' consciousness--then, and even now. If you were to hold Sayers as the standard by which the HOF is shaped, there would be hundreds of current HOF members not in the Hall today

So, since there are not, and have not been, very many NFL players and coaches that performed at the truly other-wordly level of Sayers, other criteria has been established over the years to enable voters--some of whom watched little, if any, of some candidates aside from NFL Films selected highlights--to at least attempt some form of fair comparisons and contrasts. Stats are a subsection of criterion that all the voters use in their very subjective decisions, in an attempt to be at least somewhat "objective" in their selection and voting process. It's not without personal bias and a bit of favoritism on the part of individual voters, but the use of stats at least forms some common ground for all to agree or not agree upon.

And in that context, it is not a stretch to raise the question of HOF future status prematurely concerning Coughlin. The comparison of Coughlin's successes as a Giants HC to those of Parcells in his Giants tenure as HC, after Parcells was just voted into the Hall, is certainly understandable. And because many points of criterion evaluating Parcells 19 year career as a HC are not far removed from Coughlin's 17 year career so far, in my view it is not a stretch to conclude that Coughlin is well on his way to the Hall, even though he has some more accomplishments to achieve. The arc of his career so far strongly indicates he will earn that spot.

While its difficult lets look at the comparison of Sayers and Coughlin.
There is no real dispute that Gail Sayers was a truly great player. Its simply an empirical fact. He's a Hall of Famer for that reason. Not the accumulation of stats.
Now lets look at Tom Coughlin. He's a fine coach but he also has a great many flaws as well. I would say that he's one of the best 7 to 10 HC's in football. But his teams have never really been dominant. All the other coaches in the Hall have had stretches of dominance.
So is Tom Coughlin an "all time great" like Gail Sayers ?(and what one should be to get into the Hall) I just don't know how the answer is yes.

He just doesn't meet the smell test of All Time Greatness.

gmen46
02-05-2013, 06:29 PM
While its difficult lets look at the comparison of Sayers and Coughlin.
There is no real dispute that Gail Sayers was a truly great player. Its simply an empirical fact. He's a Hall of Famer for that reason. Not the accumulation of stats.
Now lets look at Tom Coughlin. He's a fine coach but he also has a great many flaws as well. I would say that he's one of the best 7 to 10 HC's in football. But his teams have never really been dominant. All the other coaches in the Hall have had stretches of dominance.
So is Tom Coughlin an "all time great" like Gail Sayers ?(and what one should be to get into the Hall) I just don't know how the answer is yes.

He just doesn't meet the smell test of All Time Greatness.

It's not only "difficult", it's ridiculous and impossible to look at a comparison of Sayers and Coughlin as anything remotely meaningful in your comments.

Again, your definition of All Time Greatness is not defined. Certainly ill defined at best.

Criterion for voting coaches into the Hall are somewhat different than for voting in players, for one thing. For HCs, their record of wins and losses and for number of championships won are considered on a completely different scale than is the case for most players.

How many HOF voters are there at any given year? What age range and variety of demographic do they represent? How do these factor in to their respective thinking and evaluating biases? Do they all share the same bias for deciding as you, or do they even share the same bias and definition among themselves?

There is no unique "smell test" of All Time Greatness. Only to the person emitting the smell.

The question about Coughlin in relation to the HOF is not about how he stacks up to George Halas, Steve Owens, Paul Brown, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Knoll--all of whom coached in different eras, and when being a head coach of a single team for decades was the norm, it's about how his career stacks up to more contemporary coaches, ie, coaches of the NFL who became so since 1979-1980.

While I would not argue at this time TC is--or will be--on the level of Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick (he would need to win 1 more Super Bowl for that to occur, not entirely out of the question, but no sure thing), he is definitely approaching the level of Parcells (not there yet, I agree), who did just get elected.

Your points seem to be based upon TC's incomplete career--as opposed to those of completed careers-- and upon your own sense of "dominance for several years" and for smelling a certain way.

Mine are based upon the number of Super Bowl and Conference Championships he's won/lost (which compare favorably with the top 10 HCs in the history of the Super Bowl era) and his total number of wins which has not YET been completed (with 2 more seasons than Coughlin as HC under his belt, Parcells has 21 more wins which place him 10th in the 87 year history of the NFL).

My point is that with Parcells being elected to the HOF, Coughlin's chances for him to be have been .elevated exponentially.

And unless Coughlin fields--god forbid--all losing seasons for the remainder of his time as HC, he is an extremely strong candidate for the honor.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 06:39 PM
It's not only "difficult", it's ridiculous and impossible to look at a comparison of Sayers and Coughlin as anything remotely meaningful in your comments.

Again, your definition of All Time Greatness is not defined. Certainly ill defined at best.

Criterion for voting coaches into the Hall are somewhat different than for voting in players, for one thing. For HCs, their record of wins and losses and for number of championships won are considered on a completely different scale than is the case for most players.

How many HOF voters are there at any given year? What age range and variety of demographic do they represent? How do these factor in to their respective thinking and evaluating biases? Do they all share the same bias for deciding as you, or do they even share the same bias and definition among themselves?

There is no unique "smell test" of All Time Greatness. Only to the person emitting the smell.

The question about Coughlin in relation to the HOF is not about how he stacks up to George Halas, Steve Owens, Paul Brown, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Knoll--all of whom coached in different eras, and when being a head coach of a single team for decades was the norm, it's about how his career stacks up to more contemporary coaches, ie, coaches of the NFL who became so since 1979-1980.

While I would not argue at this time TC is--or will be--on the level of Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick (he would need to win 1 more Super Bowl for that to occur, not entirely out of the question, but no sure thing), he is definitely approaching the level of Parcells (not there yet, I agree), who did just get elected.

Your points seem to be based upon TC's incomplete career--as opposed to those of completed careers-- and upon your own sense of "dominance for several years" and for smelling a certain way.

Mine are based upon the number of Super Bowl and Conference Championships he's won/lost (which compare favorably with the top 10 HCs in the history of the Super Bowl era) and his total number of wins which has not YET been completed (with 2 more seasons than Coughlin as HC under his belt, Parcells has 21 more wins which place him 10th in the 87 year history of the NFL).

My point is that with Parcells being elected to the HOF, Coughlin's chances for him to be have been .elevated exponentially.

And unless Coughlin fields--god forbid--all losing seasons for the remainder of his time as HC, he is an extremely strong candidate for the honor.

OK thats fine. You certainly have a right to your opinion.
I disagree.
And another thing (though I doubt voters will consider this) winning the SB isn't the same thing as it used to be. Its more about winning a tournament now. Before the days of parody, a SB winning team was almost always a dominant team. As a matter of fact, since the 16 game schedule, no team had won a SB with less than 11 wins until 2007.
Since then its happened almost every year. Its the "hot" team that wins the SB these days. That's the consequence of the cap and general parody these days.
The reality is that TC has had very few dominant teams. Maybe the 1999 Jags.
I do agree with you that the criteria for coaches are different and that championships and W/L records are very important, but frankly, TC isn't a great coach. He's a very good coach (where have I said that kind of thing before?). His teams have often been a bit defective and quirky. I just don't see the "greatness" in him.

Broadway Blue
02-05-2013, 06:43 PM
One more ring for Coughlin = Hall of Fame

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 06:45 PM
One more ring for Coughlin = Hall of Fame
If TC wins 3 then I would agree.

AntB
02-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Jumping the gun a little. At 75 and still going strong I'd like to see him take a shot at coaching anothe 25 years and make it as a 100 Y/O head coach winning a Super Bowl.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 10:43 PM
Jumping the gun a little. At 75 and still going strong I'd like to see him take a shot at coaching anothe 25 years and make it as a 100 Y/O head coach winning a Super Bowl.
75?
Not even close.