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View Full Version : more mobile QB the wave of the future ,Giants must seek next



Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:28 AM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.

BLUDude92
02-04-2013, 12:34 AM
RG3 a double thret? That man can't even walk straight anymore!

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:35 AM
RG3 a double thret? That man can't even walk straight anymore!

thats cold. but the guy like kapernick can flat out pass the ball on target. lets not forget his 4 ints last season.

TheBookOfEli
02-04-2013, 12:36 AM
That style nearly won the 9ers a Superbowl. I wouldn't mind looking into a QB of that stature in the next 4-5 years to replace Eli down the road.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:40 AM
That style nearly won the 9ers a Superbowl. I wouldn't mind looking into a QB of that stature in the next 4-5 years to replace Eli down the road.I think this is the QB style we will see more and more coming out of the drafts. this younger generation is so athletic.

now again not talking scrambler like vick. for others who i know will bring how they dont win up.

krankeybluechick
02-04-2013, 12:45 AM
So where was RG and Big Ben??? One is getting surgery and the other could bearly walk. Flaco is more like Eli then RG and Ben. Oh, and by the way kapernick didn't win the Super Bowl. If, if , if please!!!! Stop the insanity.

ny06
02-04-2013, 12:49 AM
Who won the Super Bowl? A pocket passer..
The NFL will always be a pocket passer league, with a few teams implementing athletic qb's.
The read option seems to be what is helping these mobile quarterbacks translate from college to the pro's. But just like the wild cat I believe defenses will figure it out.

Toadofsteel
02-04-2013, 12:50 AM
When's the last time a truly mobile QB won a SB? I'm not just talking a scrambler like Rodgers, I mean a full on QB that is not afraid to run...

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 12:51 AM
http://images.wikia.com/clubpenguinvolcano/images/6/6a/1024px-TrollFace.png

TheBookOfEli
02-04-2013, 12:56 AM
When's the last time a truly mobile QB won a SB? I'm not just talking a scrambler like Rodgers, I mean a full on QB that is not afraid to run...

Steve Young i guess.

RagTime Blue
02-04-2013, 12:56 AM
I'd just like to see the Giants take the backup QB job as a real concern. I don't think it would be THAT hard to find a rookie who can outplay Carr at this point. It would take an effort on the Giants' behalf, but it could be done.

Diamondring
02-04-2013, 01:12 AM
We always look at qbs as human first. We have had qbs like RG3 before in Steve Young, Randle Cunningham and there may have been others. Yes the NFL will always be a drop back qb cause even the ones that run will drop back and pass the ball.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 01:48 AM
its not black and white anymore. Flacco is quite mobile buys plenty of extra time.

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-04-2013, 01:54 AM
its not black and white anymore. Flacco is quite mobile buys plenty of extra time.

so does eli...he has a knack for just sliding around in the pocket or stepping up to avoid pressure,,,he wasnt the least sacked QB in the league because our OL is stellar,,he doesnt need to be RG111 or anyone else.

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 02:06 AM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.
I missed you when you mention Big Ben and Flacco. In no way shape or form this 4 are in the same category. Respectfully I disagree. How can you compare RG3, Kap vs. Ben and Flacco ? That's just plain wrong. In fact you are contradicting yourself. Flacco and Ben are mobile in the pocket kind of QB but are " true " pocket QBs. RG and Kap ? Just the opposite. Ben and Flacco and for that matter Eli have won multiple SB and the mobile hybrid QB haven't won since Steve Young won just one lousy SB ? I don't get it.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 02:23 AM
I miss you when you mention Big Ben and Flacco. In no way shape or form this 4 are in the same category. Respectfully I disagree. How can you compare RG3, Kap vs. Ben and Flacco ? That's just plain wrong. In fact you are contradicting yourself. Flacco and Ben are mobile in the pocket kind of QB but are " true " pocket QBs. RG and Kap ? Just the opposite. Ben and Flacco and for that matter Eli have won multiple SB and the mobile hybrid QB haven't won since Steve Young won just one lousy SB ? I don't get it.

"hybrid" is how define ben and flacco. not just "truepocket passers. " and also kap and rg3 are not "true running QB's "

like i said many of you are stuck in the 90's 00's

and yes pocket passers have won more SB's then 2 rookies. lol

TrueBlue10
02-04-2013, 02:31 AM
The wildcat is the future!!

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 03:59 AM
"hybrid" is how define ben and flacco. not just "truepocket passers. " and also kap and rg3 are not "true running QB's "

like i said many of you are stuck in the 90's 00's

and yes pocket passers have won more SB's then 2 rookies. lol

Two rookies and Steve Young and Frank Tarkenton and Michael Vick and the list goes on and on.
Dont kid yourselve bro, Flacco and Ben are pocket QB any way you spin it around. RG3 and Kap are read-option QB. Can this kids have success in the near future? maybe but until they don't win and win consistency there is no room for discussion.
You do realize how hard is to run the option when your QB gets older and slower, right. How many years do you think they can keep running this kind of O? You do realize the danger this QBs face every week ? Just ask Michael Vick and RG3. But if your definition of " hybrid " is more athletic and mobile then yes I don't have any beef against that.

GiantRoc
02-04-2013, 04:25 AM
Yes, Kaepernick can run fast and throw far. Today his throwing ability lost the game for the 9ers. (Good). He was well off the mark for a lot of the game. His feet helped the team, no doubt, but his feet could not make up for his throwing errors. You have to remember, speed is growing on defense as well as at QB. The Ravens have a very slow linebacking corps. Fast linebackers are growing in number as well. To even mention Rothlisberger in the same sentence as other "mobile" QBs is off the mark IMO. He is so maimed he can barely walk anymore. Flaco can advance the ball if he has to, but they rarely design run plays for him. You may see Griffin be more like Flaco after his 1st year of injuries as well. Kaepernick is just the latest media doll. He made a big splash playing 1/2 a season and attracting the inked up crowd and the Maynard G Krebs goatee fans. Before we go crapping our pants over these rookies, let's see if they can put a couple winning seasons together. How's Cam Newton and Carolina doing? It takes a lot more than a fast QB to sustain a winning franchise.

M00KIE
02-04-2013, 05:33 AM
"hybrid" is how define ben and flacco. not just "truepocket passers. " and also kap and rg3 are not "true running QB's "

like i said many of you are stuck in the 90's 00's

and yes pocket passers have won more SB's then 2 rookies. lol

...Both have a place. Always have and always will. Just because one type wins a SB one year doesn't make it a "trend" that others must follow.

SweetZombieJesus
02-04-2013, 08:27 AM
I'd just like to see the Giants take the backup QB job as a real concern. I don't think it would be THAT hard to find a rookie who can outplay Carr at this point. It would take an effort on the Giants' behalf, but it could be done.We did that a few years ago, can't remember their names at the moment, but in between Lorenzen and Carr we had 3 or 4 QB projects and they're all gone now, aren't they?

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 09:11 AM
thats cold. but the guy like kapernick can flat out pass the ball on target. lets not forget his 4 ints last season.

I agree in prnciple, but teams have to put a short leash on these QB's who are great passers and can run. Vick is a shell of what he cold have been, RG III is dealing with yet another ACL/LCL problem and MAY be ready for the regular season. That will reduce his future asking price. Common sense needs to apply or the QB who prefers to run isn't gong to be any more effective than the once dreaded wildcat

Spytheweb
02-04-2013, 09:15 AM
How about getting a black QB first?

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 09:19 AM
Guys like Kaep will eventually win the SB. More and more of these mobile types continue to come out of college and it'll only be a matter of time. Colin did a fine (not great) job in the SB and if you're being honest with yourself, the 49ers "world class" defense should get the lion's share of the blame. Wasn't this supposed to be the best defense in the NFL?

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:26 AM
It does seem the game is changing but what happens when these guys get banged up? As we see more and more mobile QB's we will also see more and more of them get banged up.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:27 AM
Still, the quickest way to get the ball downfield is through the air.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 09:29 AM
It WAS the pocket passer who won the SB.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 09:37 AM
It WAS the pocket passer who won the SB.

Yeah I'm not sure what Harooni saw last night from Flacco to call him a hybrid. You would have to be a threat to pick up good yardage with your legs to be deemed that. Ultimately though, none of this was the reason the 49ers lost or the Ravens won. One team was just more prepared to handle the spotlight and that experience paid off in the end.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:40 AM
Yeah I'm not sure what Harooni saw last night from Flacco to call him a hybrid. You would have to be a threat to pick up good yardage with your legs to be deemed that. Ultimately though, none of this was the reason the 49ers lost or the Ravens won. One team was just more prepared to handle the spotlight and that experience paid off in the end.Flacco can move though.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 09:44 AM
Flacco can move though.

Compared to Eli, everyone can move. I wouldn't say avoiding pass rushers behind the LoS makes one a hybrid QB.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:47 AM
Compared to Eli, everyone can move. I wouldn't say avoiding pass rushers behind the LoS makes one a hybrid QB.No, but he actually can move. Not like the newer wave of QB's, but he doesn't just lumber out of the pocket for a 1 yard gain and slide either.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 09:54 AM
No, but he actually can move. Not like the newer wave of QB's, but he doesn't just lumber out of the pocket for a 1 yard gain and slide either.

No one is afraid of Flacco's "mobility". You don't factor him rushing down the field for 10+ yard chunks when you gameplan your defense against him. You have to be able to pick up significant yardage on the ground to be in that hybrid category. If anything, Flacco is a really well built QB with a tall frame that can absorb damage well and has the arm to make any throws from the pocket.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:55 AM
No one is afraid of Flacco's "mobility". You don't factor him rushing down the field for 10+ yard chunks when you gameplan your defense against him. You have to be able to pick up significant yardage on the ground to be in that hybrid category. If anything, Flacco is a really well built QB with a tall frame that can absorb damage well and has the arm to make any throws from the pocket.No, you don't expect him o burn you with his legs, but he is not a statue either.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 09:57 AM
Look, he does prefer the pocket, no doubt. Just saying he can run if needed and looks natural doing it.

EliDaMANning
02-04-2013, 10:06 AM
Look, he does prefer the pocket, no doubt. Just saying he can run if needed and looks natural doing it.Flacco can't run are you kidding me? Runners get you chunks of yards like Kaeps did yesterday. QB need to be mobile in the pocket. They need excellent pocket awareness. They don't always have to think about running for big gains. Flacco showed some pocket presence last night, but he did not show any running ability. LOL what game did you watch

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:09 AM
Look, he does prefer the pocket, no doubt. Just saying he can run if needed and looks natural doing it.
With this I agree. He's very good in the pocket and can create time to throw. He's not looking to run for yards really, but he's can get around in the pocket.

TCHOF
02-04-2013, 10:10 AM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.

Ha . . . is that Eric the Midget with Artie?

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:13 AM
To deal with the OP's point. I would say what guys like Kaepernick and Russell Wilson have shown, is that being a pocket passer is no longer the only way to win.
You can have a QB who can and will run the football, and have a very dynamic offense.
That doesn't mean you can't win just as well as always with a pocket passer.

EliDaMANning
02-04-2013, 10:19 AM
To deal with the OP's point. I would say what guys like Kaepernick and Russell Wilson have shown, is that being a pocket passer is no longer the only way to win. This isn't a knock on the two QB but what exactly have they won?? Until one wins a SB they haven't shown us anything.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:23 AM
This isn't a knock on the two QB but what exactly have they won?? Until one wins a SB they haven't shown us anything.
They have shown us plenty. To deny this or to place the standard that they "have to win a SB" is ridiculous.
Right now. SF, Seattle and Washington (with a healthy RG) have better offenses than ours.
The only thing that hurt Kaepernick and SF last night was his inexperience. Other than that, he was lights out.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 10:25 AM
The SF defense was way more suspect last night than Kaeperdoodle and the offense. Where was the secondary they talk up so much? What about Aldon Smith the "pass rushing" phenom? At least Jim Caldwell redeemed himself in a sense and won't just be remembered as that guy who wrecked the Colts.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 10:26 AM
The SF defense was way more suspect last night than Kaeperdoodle and the offense. Where was the secondary they talk up so much? What about Aldon Smith the "pass rushing" phenom? At least Jim Caldwell redeemed himself in a sense and won't just be remembered as that guy who wrecked the Colts.Or you could give some credit to Flacco. He played a great game and made some great throws.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 10:29 AM
Or you could give some credit to Flacco. He played a great game and made some great throws.

My post has nothing to do with Flacco. Simply saying that if you are being fair in assessing the 49ers game as a whole, the defense was underwhelming to say the least. With all the hype they receive, they should have played much better.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:31 AM
Or you could give some credit to Flacco. He played a great game and made some great throws.
I thought both QB's played very well. The only difference (and what probably cost SF the game) was Kaepernick's inexperience.
I mean the kid had 9 starts going into that game. That's a huge stage for a kid with that amount of experience. He played great but the time management was horrible at the end.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 10:33 AM
My post has nothing to do with Flacco. Simply saying that if you are being fair in assessing the 49ers game as a whole, the defense was underwhelming to say the least. With all the hype they receive, they should have played much better.Did the defense play bad or was the QB play very good? Or both?

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 10:34 AM
I thought both QB's played very well. The only difference (and what probably cost SF the game) was Kaepernick's inexperience.I mean the kid had 9 starts going into that game. That's a huge stage for a kid with that amount of experience. He played great but the time management was horrible at the end.Both played well but Flacco was making some great throws last night. He had a bunch of throws that where so perfect or they would have been intercepted.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:38 AM
Did the defense play bad or was the QB play very good? Or both?
Honestly...the rules are making it more and more difficult to play defense in this league.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 10:38 AM
Did the defense play bad or was the QB play very good? Or both?

It was obvious from the first series that Kaep needed time to warm up and that he wasn't going to start on fire. In a physical game like this with good defenses (Yes, the Ravens D was good this postseason). the 49ers D with more talent and experience compared to their offense failed to contain the Ravens offense in the 1st half. No reason that a unit with that kind of front 7 and a decent (not great though) secondary should have surrendered 21 points that early. Obviously didn't help that the Ravens ST won too.

So yes Flacco played well but the 49ers defense did worse than most of the world expected.

EliDaMANning
02-04-2013, 10:39 AM
They have shown us plenty. To deny this or to place the standard that they "have to win a SB" is ridiculous.
Right now. SF, Seattle and Washington (with a healthy RG) have better offenses than ours.
The only thing that hurt Kaepernick and SF last night was his inexperience. Other than that, he was lights out.The SB is my standard. And another pocket passer won the SB this year. I'll take a pocket passer with some mobility over a scrambling QB any day of the week.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:44 AM
The SB is my standard. And another pocket passer won the SB this year. I'll take a pocket passer with some mobility over a scrambling QB any day of the week.
Well that's a ridiculous standard.
If the Seahawks had adopted that standard they wouldn't have drafted Russell Wilson. The game is changing. There is now more than one way to skin a cat in the NFL.
Mobile QB's, even running QB's can win in this league. All this means is that both can be successful.
If NFL GM's need a "SB win" to identify legitimate trends (like you suggest) the league would be stuck in a world of "3 yards and a cloud of dust".

RoanokeFan
02-04-2013, 10:49 AM
It WAS the pocket passer who won the SB. +1

gumby74
02-04-2013, 10:50 AM
Kaepernick was ridiculous last night.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 10:52 AM
+1
As I said before, what this season has demonstrated is that you can now win with a running style QB, but the pocket style passer is still the predominant method.
Its hardly the wave of the future. But it is a legitimate way to run an offense. (with the right guy) And by the right guy, I mean a guy who can throw the ball effectively from the pocket.

CDN_G-FAN
02-04-2013, 11:08 AM
Meh.

who would we consider the 'mobile' QBs in nfl right now? Vick, cam, kap, rgIII, jackson. am i missing anyone?

Vick is damanged goods, both mentally and physicall.

cam is good, but far from great.

Kap looks great, but so did cam and vick early on.

RGIII is great right now, but already had a knee injury after his rookie season to recover from.

Jackson looks very good but its his first season as well.

there's definitely more of them coming out into the league, but i question if that style of play is realistic in the modern NFL.

i mean, its hard enough keeping a pocket passing QB healthy, i don't know if you can both run the ball great and throw the ball great, keep a 2 to 1 ratio pass/rush production, and stay healthy.

and we'll see if the league changes rules to encourage this kind of QB play or not.

but for the time being, it think the jury is out about how effective this style of play will be long term.

dezzzR
02-04-2013, 11:28 AM
Meh.

who would we consider the 'mobile' QBs in nfl right now? Vick, cam, kap, rgIII, jackson. am i missing anyone?

Vick is damanged goods, both mentally and physicall.

cam is good, but far from great.

Kap looks great, but so did cam and vick early on.

RGIII is great right now, but already had a knee injury after his rookie season to recover from.

Jackson looks very good but its his first season as well.

there's definitely more of them coming out into the league, but i question if that style of play is realistic in the modern NFL.

i mean, its hard enough keeping a pocket passing QB healthy, i don't know if you can both run the ball great and throw the ball great, keep a 2 to 1 ratio pass/rush production, and stay healthy.

and we'll see if the league changes rules to encourage this kind of QB play or not.

but for the time being, it think the jury is out about how effective this style of play will be long term.Agreed. Another good example as to why these "hybrid" qbs arent the future was the throw from Flacco to Jones. Once the pocket started collapsing, Flacco moved forward to escape the pressure, kept his eyes glued down field and hit Jones for a huge play and the td. A mobile QB usually scramble at the first sign of the pocket collapsing. Not something you always want in a QB.

TrickAssP
02-04-2013, 11:34 AM
That style nearly won the 9ers a Superbowl. I wouldn't mind looking into a QB of that stature in the next 4-5 years to replace Eli down the road.

You show me ONE of these so called double threats who have won a SuperBowl and I'll give it a second thought, until the day that happens get real.
Long term: LUCK >>>>>>>>> all double threat QB's

Delicreep
02-04-2013, 11:40 AM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.

You get distracted by every shiny object that crosses your path, don't you?

While only a fool would discount the successes of mobile QB's this year*, it's at best a cautionary tale: It's a violent game, and you can't put the heart of your team in harms way without taking a significant chance it doesn't end well. Ask a Skins fan.


And when did speed become "technology"?






*How you jammed Ben and Flacco into that group I'll never know.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 11:42 AM
You show me ONE of these so called double threats who have won a SuperBowl and I'll give it a second thought, until the day that happens get real.
Long term: LUCK >>>>>>>>> all double threat QB's
Wow!
What a ridiculous post. Congrats!

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 11:53 AM
You get distracted by every shiny object that crosses your path, don't you?

While only a fool would discount the successes of mobile QB's this year*, it's at best a cautionary tale: It's a violent game, and you can't put the heart of your team in harms way without taking a significant chance it doesn't end well. Ask a Skins fan.


And when did speed become "technology"?






*How you jammed Ben and Flacco into that group I'll never know.
I think ultimately no matter what, an NFL QB must be able to throw the ball well from the pocket. We have seen that from both Wilson and Kaepernick. We have not really seen that yet with RG III.
So when we talk about running QB's, we have to be talking about guys who enhance their threats with the ability to run the ball. Not as a replacement of the ability to be efficient pocket passers.

When players come along who have both these attributes, they are to be taken very seriously. These posters who dismiss this ability since they haven't yet won a SB is so short sighted its to be dismissed out of hand.
Because in one sense we HAVE seen it. We've seen Steve Young, Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers win SB's. the threat to tuck the ball and run and pick up yards in the NFL is well documented and affirmed with championship success.

But as I said, in order for them to be successful, they must be able to pass from the pocket well.
That's what we saw with Kaepernick last night.

Delicreep
02-04-2013, 11:58 AM
I think ultimately no matter what, an NFL QB must be able to throw the ball well from the pocket. We have seen that from both Wilson and Kaepernick. We have not really seen that yet with RG III.
So when we talk about running QB's, we have to be talking about guys who enhance their threats with the ability to run the ball. Not as a replacement of the ability to be efficient pocket passers.

When players come along who have both these attributes, they are to be taken very seriously. These posters who dismiss this ability since they haven't yet won a SB is so short sighted its to be dismissed out of hand.
Because in one sense we HAVE seen it. We've seen Steve Young, Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers win SB's. the threat to tuck the ball and run and pick up yards in the NFL is well documented and affirmed with championship success.

But as I said, in order for them to be successful, they must be able to pass from the pocket well.
That's what we saw with Kaepernick last night.

One of the QB's was gonna be on the losing team, but there is a big difference between saying a guy lost and a guy had a bad game.

Kap looked great in the pocket and great on the move; just ended up on the wrong side of the equation.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 12:02 PM
One of the QB's was gonna be on the losing team, but there is a big difference between saying a guy lost and a guy had a bad game.

Kap looked great in the pocket and great on the move; just ended up on the wrong side of the equation.
That's my point.
For some posters to say that if a guy can run the ball, he can't win a SB, is silly. They seem to think that running ability is a substitute for the ability to throw the ball. Well Kaepernick proved that he can do both. And Wilson has as well.
These guys are scary to defend.
As I said before, the only think that kept SF from being the champs was Kaepernick's inexperience, because the kid can flat play.

EliDaMANning
02-04-2013, 12:08 PM
Well that's a ridiculous standard.
If the Seahawks had adopted that standard they wouldn't have drafted Russell Wilson. The game is changing. There is now more than one way to skin a cat in the NFL.
Mobile QB's, even running QB's can win in this league. All this means is that both can be successful.
If NFL GM's need a "SB win" to identify legitimate trends (like you suggest) the league would be stuck in a world of "3 yards and a cloud of dust".If the standard in the NFL is to win a SB then how is that ridiculous? Maybe Seattle wants to use Wilson more in the pocket like they already showed us. He didn't run nearly as much as Kaep. or Rg3 and was still very successful.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 12:12 PM
Newton might have the best chance of success.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:14 PM
I agree Flacco didn't demonstrate his wheels much but he certainly has them. what he did do a lot was buy loads of extra time to get guys open.

Now lets say Kap had a Giants defense that could hold a team under 21 points , you tell me he doesn't win???

i agree with morehead that Kap was a young rookie and his first SB you get a bit nervous but still was good.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:32 PM
*How you jammed Ben and Flacco into that group I'll never know.

why wouldnt I consider them hybrids??? they have designed running plays also. when you guys talk about "running qb's" it makes it seem they can't pass . i am telling you the wave of the future QB's can do both, and that is hard to defend.

egyptian420
02-04-2013, 12:34 PM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.I fail to see how Flacco and RG3 are even remotely similar

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 12:36 PM
Flacco isn't a statue, but he's not a runner either..

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:38 PM
I fail to see how Flacco and RG3 are even remotely similar


http://youtu.be/YOlxTwOPDNo?t=11s

fans forget Flacco can run also (not as fast as RG3 but still mobile)

egyptian420
02-04-2013, 12:41 PM
Agreed. Another good example as to why these "hybrid" qbs arent the future was the throw from Flacco to Jones. Once the pocket started collapsing, Flacco moved forward to escape the pressure, kept his eyes glued down field and hit Jones for a huge play and the td. A mobile QB usually scramble at the first sign of the pocket collapsing. Not something you always want in a QB.That's an interesting point, never thought of that really

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 12:41 PM
All QB's can run.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:43 PM
All QB's can run. lol you never see eli/peyton have a run like 11 seconds into that video.

egyptian420
02-04-2013, 12:44 PM
http://youtu.be/YOlxTwOPDNo?t=11s

fans forget Flacco can run also (not as fast as RG3 but still mobile)dezzzr made a point already about that play to Jones where the pocket collapsed and Flacco stepped into it and bombed it to Jones, I can't say with certainty what RG3 would've done but I would bet he rushes on that play.

RG3 also plays in a totally different system that caters to his athleticism. I don't see Flacco in a pistol formation faking 9/10 handoffs and running with it. Most of the time Flacco runs is when he's trapped and has no other option, where as most of RG3's runs are actually run plays designed for him.

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 12:49 PM
To deal with the OP's point. I would say what guys like Kaepernick and Russell Wilson have shown, is that being a pocket passer is no longer the only way to win.
You can have a QB who can and will run the football, and have a very dynamic offense.
That doesn't mean you can't win just as well as always with a pocket passer.
Agree.
I respect what Harooni is trying to get across but I don't agree with his last statement. We are not going to be stuck in stone age if we don't get into the program with a " hybrid " QB.

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 12:49 PM
+1

+ 2 !

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 12:51 PM
lol you never see eli/peyton have a run like 11 seconds into that video.Ok so Joe can run faster than Eli and Peyton, that still doesnt make them running QB's or hybrid QB's.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 12:57 PM
I'd say that Flacco would need a better YPA average than 2.1 to actually be considered some sort of serious running threat.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 12:59 PM
guys like ben and flacco also have designed running plays and options to run. now some may do more or less than say an RG3 or Kap but thats not the point. the point is the future is guys that can do both. even if Flacco doesnt use it in any particular game the capability is there. And as a young QB gets better passing and ages a bit he will most likely pass more and i expect RG3 to do the same.

Now you can either fold your arms and be stubborn or embrace the fact that the future is the double threat.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 01:02 PM
Days of collins and bledsoe are over , lead footed golems are not going to win anymore.

move in the athletic QB that can do both.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:04 PM
If the standard in the NFL is to win a SB then how is that ridiculous? Maybe Seattle wants to use Wilson more in the pocket like they already showed us. He didn't run nearly as much as Kaep. or Rg3 and was still very successful.
I'm not sold on RGIII because he hasn't shown that he is a quality pocket passer. Both Wilson and Kaepernick have.

And I can't stand the simplistic view that you have to win a SB to prove anything. It takes teams to win a SB. Trust me, Dan Marino didn't suck.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 01:05 PM
Now you can either fold your arms and be stubborn or embrass the fact that the future is the double threat.

But Flacco isn't a double threat haha. You're my bro Harooni but he would need to be more consistent on his 201 attempts to qualify for the group. He has had two really nice deep runs but would you say that Eli is a physical runner because he shoulder plowed that one Packers defender this year?

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:06 PM
Agree.
I respect what Harooni is trying to get across but I don't agree with his last statement. We are not going to be stuck in stone age if we don't get into the program with a " hybrid " QB.
I'll second that. What these guys have shown is that being strictly a pocket passer isn't the only way to win. It didn't show that the days of the pocket passer are numbered.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 01:07 PM
there is no such thing as pocket passer or running qb. thats all made up by fans labeling things. all qb's throw more than they rush , even Vick.

What we have is a new generation that can do both.

if you guys label Kap as a running QB you are doing a great deservice to his throwing ability's. and yes "running qbs" throw from the pocket also.

Moke
02-04-2013, 01:08 PM
These "hybrid QBs" are just movable because they have that athleticism to move around the pocket and their o-line allows them to.

I think we are comparing all of these QBs to Eli Manning and not realizing that Eli is a pocket passer who stands around a lot. His movement outside of the pocket isn't as good as others because of athletic abilities to run IMO.

When Eli runs, it looks like that slow poke that needs a head start. When Flacco heads out of the pocket, looks like a speedster.

egyptian420
02-04-2013, 01:08 PM
guys like ben and flacco also have designed running plays and options to run. now some may do more or less than say an RG3 or Kap but thats not the point. the point is the future is guys that can do both. even if Flacco doesnt use it in any particular game the capability is there. And as a young QB gets better passing and ages a bit he will most likely pass more and i expect RG3 to do the same.

Now you can either fold your arms and be stubborn or embrace the fact that the future is the double threat.It's not really about being stubborn, I just think most NFL fans would rather have a Brady who can't run worth of #### than RG3, and rightfully so.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:09 PM
there is no such thing as pocket passer or running qb. thats all made up by fans labeling things. all qb's throw more than they rush , even Vick.

What we have is a new generation that can do both.

if you guys label Kap as a running QB you are doing a great deservice to his throwing ability's. and yes "running qbs" throw from the pocket also.

Well I agree but its misguided (IMO) to suggest that you will have to do both in the future. Pocket passers are not going to be obsolete anytime soon.

Moke
02-04-2013, 01:10 PM
Well I agree but its misguided (IMO) to suggest that you will have to do both in the future. Pocket passers are not going to be obsolete anytime soon.

No, and that's because we have the offensive line still.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 01:10 PM
But Flacco isn't a double threat haha. You're my bro Harooni but he would need to be more consistent on his 201 attempts to qualify for the group. He has had two really nice deep runs but would you say that Eli is a physical runner because he shoulder plowed that one Packers defender this year?

when the pocket breaks down and the middle is all clear guys like brady and eli can pick up 6 yards or so. but guys like big ben and flacco can get you that big 13yard first down.

more mobile is the future, as i said guys that can do both. might not always flex it but the ability is there.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 01:12 PM
Well I agree but its misguided (IMO) to suggest that you will have to do both in the future. Pocket passers are not going to be obsolete anytime soon. sorry more, but i think that door is closing fast on these slow club footed QB's , these kids are coming out more and more athletic.

Moke
02-04-2013, 01:14 PM
sorry more, but i think that door is closing fast on these slow club footed QB's , these kids are coming out more and more athletic.

It's all of those drugs man. I really do agree though. All these QBs are getting better in all facets of the game. I know some old-timers around here want to deny it as much as possible just like they've denied the use of all this wonderful technology that we've gotten.

It's not the way to go, we have to move on from the past and to something better. One day the Giants will have their own mobile QB.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 01:15 PM
when the pocket breaks down and the middle is all clear guys like brady and eli can pick up 6 yards or so. but guys like big ben and flacco can get you that big 13yard first down.

more mobile is the future, as i said guys that can do both. might not always flex it but the ability is there.

Do defenses account for Flacco's mobility though? Is there a possible spy to keep an eye on Flacco in the event he escapes the pocket? Is the defensive coordinator afraid to play man coverage because he's afraid Flacco will burn them on the sideline with his legs? These are common themes you see against dual threat QBs and I've never seen Flacco face that sort of defense.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:15 PM
when the pocket breaks down and the middle is all clear guys like brady and eli can pick up 6 yards or so. but guys like big ben and flacco can get you that big 13yard first down.

more mobile is the future, as i said guys that can do both. might not always flex it but the ability is there.
Well put it this way.
The future is about the passing game. So a QB will succeed if he (or she) can pass the ball well. It obviously will help if he he can run the ball well also.
But he will not succeed if he can run the ball well (or even great) if he can't pass the ball well.
The rules favor the passing game. You MUST be able to stretch the field and you can't do that without a serious passing threat.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:18 PM
sorry more, but i think that door is closing fast on these slow club footed QB's , these kids are coming out more and more athletic.
The guys who's speed and mobility matters the most are WR's and RB's. The rules just favor it. It is and will be for the forseeable future, a passing league.
Great pocket passers will always be able to exploit that in the passing game.

Moke
02-04-2013, 01:20 PM
Well put it this way.
The future is about the passing game. So a QB will succeed if he (or she) can pass the ball well. It obviously will help if he he can run the ball well also.
But he will not succeed if he can run the ball well (or even great) if he can't pass the ball well.
The rules favor the passing game. You MUST be able to stretch the field and you can't do that without a serious passing threat.

Okay so you pretty much agreed that hybrid QBs will be a godsend to this league. I really don't see why we must disagree that hybrid QBs are going to be a thing for the league. A QB that can throw and run the ball well is the new fad. Soon we're going to see a league where every team is going to go after the hybrid QBs.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 01:23 PM
Okay so you pretty much agreed that hybrid QBs will be a godsend to this league. I really don't see why we must disagree that hybrid QBs are going to be a thing for the league. A QB that can throw and run the ball well is the new fad. Soon we're going to see a league where every team is going to go after the hybrid QBs.
That's not even close to what I said.

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
It's looking like more dual threat QBs are coming out of the college ranks these days than ever before and it will only be a matter of time until half of the teams use one as their starter. The biggest factor will fall onto the HC and how he uses his shiny new toy. RG3's athleticism was overexploited to the point it severely injured him. The way SF utilizes Kaepernick is more appropriate.

dezzzR
02-04-2013, 01:33 PM
Okay so you pretty much agreed that hybrid QBs will be a godsend to this league. I really don't see why we must disagree that hybrid QBs are going to be a thing for the league. A QB that can throw and run the ball well is the new fad. Soon we're going to see a league where every team is going to go after the hybrid QBs.I doubt that very much. Teams are going to take the best available QB.

The Eli to Cruz td against the skins is a perfect example of why mobile/running qbs arent always the answer. Eli was laid out on that play but still threw the ball and put it right on the money before the pressure got to him. A running qb is going to feel that pressure and try to escape the pocket. Chances are if we had a QB like Cam or RG3, we wouldnt have won that game.

Shockeystays08
02-04-2013, 01:38 PM
so does eli...he has a knack for just sliding around in the pocket or stepping up to avoid pressure,,,he wasnt the least sacked QB in the league because our OL is stellar,,he doesnt need to be RG111 or anyone else.
Eli trips over his own feet and runs like he's in quicksand. Speaking of sliding around, he doesn't even slide well going to the ground.
Flacco is a bit more mobile and looks much faster out of the pocket than Eli.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 02:03 PM
Okay so you pretty much agreed that hybrid QBs will be a godsend to this league. I really don't see why we must disagree that hybrid QBs are going to be a thing for the league. A QB that can throw and run the ball well is the new fad. Soon we're going to see a league where every team is going to go after the hybrid QBs.

nicely put moke, i think it goes without saying you cant run well and throw poorly. that was never my point that pure rushing qb's are the future. my point was true hybrids

Moke
02-04-2013, 02:04 PM
That's not even close to what I said.

You're just beating around the bush though, it's pretty evident in your post.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 02:09 PM
You're just beating around the bush though, it's pretty evident in your post. morehead is almost there, he is on the fence, only a mtter of a few years he will see it.

he at least is open to the idea. many think we need Frankenstien to stay in the pocket.

TrueBlue10
02-04-2013, 02:18 PM
A 95/5 throw/run QB just won the SB MVP less than 24 hours ago. OUR OWN 98/2 QB just won the SB MVP 365 days ago.

The most running QBs to ever win the SB were, who? Big Ben? Elway? Anyone else??

If you look at Big Ben, his highest yearly rushing yardage EVER was 204 yards in 2007.
Elway's was 258 in 1990.

Flacco's was 180 yards in 2008.
Eli's was 80 yards in 2005.

RG3 ran for 815 this year. Got injured. Team finished 7-9.
Cam Newton ran for 741 yds. Team finished 7-9.

R. Wilson ran for 489 took his team to the NFC Championship.
Kaep ran for 415 on half a season and took his team to the SB... but didn't win it.

So, it's almost as if the MORE the QB runs, the LESS likely they are to win Championships.

Let's try not to look so stupid, huh fellas?

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 02:20 PM
A 95/5 throw/run QB just won the SB MVP less than 24 hours ago. OUR OWN 98/2 QB just won the SB MVP 365 days ago.

The most running QBs to ever win the SB were, who? Big Ben? Elway? Anyone else??

If you look at Big Ben, his highest yearly rushing yardage EVER was 204 yards in 2007.
Elway's was 258 in 1990.

Flacco's was 180 yards in 2008.
Eli's was 80 yards in 2005.

RG3 ran for 815 this year. Got injured. Team finished 7-9.
Cam Newton ran for 741 yds. Team finished 7-9.

R. Wilson ran for 489 took his team to the NFC Championship.
Kaep ran for 415 on half a season and took his team to the SB... but didn't win it.

So, it's almost as if the MORE the QB runs, the LESS likely they are to win Championships.

Let's try not to look so stupid, huh fellas?The Redskins went 10-6 and made the playoffs.

Diamondring
02-04-2013, 02:22 PM
Looking for one type of player only is not a good thing. Yet if there is a option qb somewhere and he has potential, then we get him. If we are are going look for mobile qbs in college all of a sudden, be prepared to get ready for college teams to get defenders who can defend against those mobile qbs making them like an ordinary qb.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 02:34 PM
horrible points trueblue, the question isnt that the QB should run more, its that he is faster and more mobile. flacco and big ben are that hybrid type they can do both.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 02:41 PM
A 95/5 throw/run QB just won the SB MVP less than 24 hours ago. OUR OWN 98/2 QB just won the SB MVP 365 days ago.

The most running QBs to ever win the SB were, who? Big Ben? Elway? Anyone else??

If you look at Big Ben, his highest yearly rushing yardage EVER was 204 yards in 2007.
Elway's was 258 in 1990.

Flacco's was 180 yards in 2008.
Eli's was 80 yards in 2005.

RG3 ran for 815 this year. Got injured. Team finished 7-9.
Cam Newton ran for 741 yds. Team finished 7-9.

R. Wilson ran for 489 took his team to the NFC Championship.
Kaep ran for 415 on half a season and took his team to the SB... but didn't win it.

So, it's almost as if the MORE the QB runs, the LESS likely they are to win Championships.

Let's try not to look so stupid, huh fellas?

Aaron Rodgers ran for 356 in 2010.
Steve Young ran for 293 in 1994.

And Kaepernick didn't lose because he ran the ball. He lost because he couldn't manage the clock and his defense stunk yesterday.

CDN_G-FAN
02-04-2013, 02:45 PM
i just think there's going to be a trade off for these mobile QBs. the advantage will be that they'll add a strategic problem for defenses that will make their job throwing the ball easier than against a true pocket passer.

But there's no way they're going to be nearly as accomplished at throwing the ball because they have that option to run.

That's not to say you can't be great at throwing the ball AND offer a rushing threat, but the best hybrid will never be as good throwing the ball as the best pocket passer.

Rudyy
02-04-2013, 02:45 PM
i just think there's going to be a trade off for these mobile QBs. the advantage will be that they'll add a strategic problem for defenses that will make their job throwing the ball easier than against a true pocket passer.

But there's no way they're going to be nearly as accomplished at throwing the ball because they have that option to run.

That's not to say you can't be great at throwing the ball AND offer a rushing threat, but the best hybrid will never be as good throwing the ball as the best pocket passer.+1

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 02:50 PM
i just think there's going to be a trade off for these mobile QBs. the advantage will be that they'll add a strategic problem for defenses that will make their job throwing the ball easier than against a true pocket passer.

But there's no way they're going to be nearly as accomplished at throwing the ball because they have that option to run.

That's not to say you can't be great at throwing the ball AND offer a rushing threat, but the best hybrid will never be as good throwing the ball as the best pocket passer.

I don't get it. If a guy can run he can take off when everyone is covered so he'd throw fewer picks and incompletions.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 02:52 PM
horrible points trueblue, the question isnt that the QB should run more, its that he is faster and more mobile. flacco and big ben are that hybrid type they can do both.
Referring to Ben and Flacco as "hybrids" is way off the mark. They are just pocket passers (Ben to a far greater extent) who can extend plays with mobility.
I wouldn't say that Aaron Rodgers is a "hybrid" QB.

Kase-1
02-04-2013, 02:52 PM
I don't get it. If a guy can run he can take off when everyone is covered so he'd throw fewer picks and incompletions.If he cant read the field, doesn't anticipate throws, or fully trust his WRs then he can run all day but wont be a good QB

Diamondring
02-04-2013, 02:56 PM
Different types of good qbs are still in the future not just mobile ones. There are not that many guys who are mobile and can pass the ball in this world..

TheEnigma
02-04-2013, 03:03 PM
That's not to say you can't be great at throwing the ball AND offer a rushing threat, but the best hybrid will never be as good throwing the ball as the best pocket passer.

Isn't that kind of a given though? If you lack the mobility to be an additional threat in the ground game like a Kaep, RG3, Wilson, or Cam, you're essentially forced to put more emphasis on making reads from the pocket and knowing how to diagnose a defense prior to the snap. Not that I disagree with you but a blind man should always have better hearing 9 times out of 10 over a normal man. The right way to go is to find a raw athletic QB type who isn't already "designed" to run first so you can mold him into the QB you want and that's a pass first and run 2nd type. There are a few times when I wish Eli could just go 5 yards forward instead of having to force a throw into a tight window.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 03:05 PM
If he cant read the field, doesn't anticipate throws, or fully trust his WRs then he can run all day but wont be a good QB
So your view is that if a QB can run well, that means that he can't throw it well, he can't read defenses, he has no trust in his WR's and can't anticipate.
Please explain how the ability to run effects any of these things.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 03:07 PM
like i said many are stuck in old school thinking that if a QB is mobile he cant throw

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 03:11 PM
like i said many are stuck in old school thinking that if a QB is mobile he cant throw
That seems to be the case.
Someone might want to take note that Kaepernick threw for 300 yards last night and made some great throws.

Kase-1
02-04-2013, 03:14 PM
So your view is that if a QB can run well, that means that he can't throw it well, he can't read defenses, he has no trust in his WR's and can't anticipate.
Please explain how the ability to run effects any of these things.I have no idea how you got that from my post but I was saying if he cant do those things it doesn't matter how well he runs the ball. If you can run and do those things in addition to throwing the ball well then you have the makings of a good QB

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 03:19 PM
I have no idea how you got that from my post but I was saying if he cant do those things it doesn't matter how well he runs the ball. If you can run and do those things in addition to throwing the ball well then you have the makings of a good QB
As I said in earlier posts....A QB MUST be a good pocket passer to win in this league. If he can run that is a great addition to his game. But being a great runner isn't enough by itself. Being a great passer in the NFL is.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 03:19 PM
That's not to say you can't be great at throwing the ball AND offer a rushing threat, but the best hybrid will never be as good throwing the ball as the best pocket passer.

i respectfully disagree, in the future you will see these new breeds of humans will in fact be true double threats.

We will soon see some god like QB's doing it all.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 03:21 PM
i respectfully disagree, in the future you will see these new breed of humans will in fact be true double threats.

We will soon see some god like QB's doing it all.
I think you're right on that.
The most athletic kids weren't playing QB before. they were RB's, WR's, DB's etc.....
Now these kids in highschool with great athleticism are playing QB. So the pipeline is being filed with these kinds of kids.
There are going to be a lot more athletic QB's in the NFL over the next 10 years.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 03:25 PM
That seems to be the case.
Someone might want to take note that Kaepernick threw for 300 yards last night and made some great throws. this is exactly why i do not like when some say "oh he is a running QB" because it discredits that QB as a passer.

all QB's are passers. that is the position.

Flacco and kap for example are both hybrids. now one is younger and faster and may go to the run option more but that is nether here nor there.

Fans like to think Flacco is a pocket passer as they define it but its not correct.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 03:27 PM
Think Luck will have more success than any of them. Maybe Newton after him. They have good arms and the size to take the hits.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 03:28 PM
I think you're right on that.
The most athletic kids weren't playing QB before. they were RB's, WR's, DB's etc.....
Now these kids in highschool with great athleticism are playing QB. So the pipeline is being filed with these kinds of kids.
There are going to be a lot more athletic QB's in the NFL over the next 10 years.
right on!!!

I will go as far as to say after 5 years no Slow heavy footed QB's will win any SB's anymore.

Cloud57
02-04-2013, 03:30 PM
right on!!!

I will go as far as to say after 5 years no Slow heavy footed QB's will win any SB's anymore.no more mannings lol

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 03:30 PM
this is exactly why i do not like when some say "oh he is a running QB" because it discredits that QB as a passer.

all QB's are passers. that is the position.

Flacco and kap for example are both hybrids. now one is younger and faster and may go to the run option more but that is nether here nor there.

Fans like to think Flacco is a pocket passer as they define it but its not correct.

It is certainly true that in the past, running QB's tended not to be as strong passers, starting with guys like Bobby Douglas. Even Vick is a lousy pocket passer despite his strong arm. But there is no reason these new kids can't be great passers because they are already showing it. Kaepernick made so tremendous throws last night. Wilson also has a great ability as a pocket passer.

Buddy333
02-04-2013, 03:30 PM
right on!!!I will go as far as to say after 5 years no Slow heavy footed QB's will win any SB's anymore.Depend on what system the team runs. The quickest way to get down the field is through the air. If a team stays with a pocket passer and has the tools for it to work it will never get old. If they build a team for the newer wave of offenses they will of course need a different type of QB.

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 03:35 PM
I'll second that. What these guys have shown is that being strictly a pocket passer isn't the only way to win. It didn't show that the days of the pocket passer are numbered.

Mobile QB, option-read QB, pistol formation QB, spread Off. QB, pocket QB, stationary flat footed QB, you name it, its the job of the " so called experts " trying to define each and one of them but the most intricate and important aspect of a QB is what many experts and scouts define as the IT factor, either you have IT or you don't have IT.
In the words of Ol Ernie,
Ernie Accorsi's Scouting Report of Eli Manning
Maryland Giant : 1/16/2012 8:24 am
On November 2, 2002, then Giants GM, Ernie Accorsi, went to an Auburn-Mississippi game to scout Eli Manning. Accorsi hand wrote his non-traditional scouting report and then went home and typed it up in all caps and presented it to the Giants scouting team.

Below is his summary that came at the end of the report. Notice that there is not a single bit of statistical evidence or combine type crap. Just the analysis of a real pro.

Ernie nailed it. All hail Ernie.

"Most of all, he has that quality you can't define. Call it Magic. As Bobby Boyd told me once about Unitas, 'Two things set him apart: His left testicle and his right testicle.'...We should move up to take him. These guys are rare you know.

There you go, enough said, THE IT FACTOR is what defines a true winner.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 03:35 PM
It is certainly true that in the past, running QB's tended not to be as strong passers, starting with guys like Bobby Douglas. Even Vick is a lousy pocket passer despite his strong arm. But there is no reason these new kids can't be great passers because they are already showing it. Kaepernick made so tremendous throws last night. Wilson also has a great ability as a pocket passer. correct i blame Vick for making fast qb's look bad throwing the ball.

gumby74
02-04-2013, 03:45 PM
Mobile QB, option-read QB, pistol formation QB, spread Off. QB, pocket QB, stationary flat footed QB, you name it, its the job of the " so called experts " trying to define each and one of them but the most intricate and important aspect of a QB is what many experts and scouts define as the IT factor, either you have IT or you don't have IT.
In the words of Ol Ernie,
Ernie Accorsi's Scouting Report of Eli Manning
Maryland Giant : 1/16/2012 8:24 am
On November 2, 2002, then Giants GM, Ernie Accorsi, went to an Auburn-Mississippi game to scout Eli Manning. Accorsi hand wrote his non-traditional scouting report and then went home and typed it up in all caps and presented it to the Giants scouting team.

Below is his summary that came at the end of the report. Notice that there is not a single bit of statistical evidence or combine type crap. Just the analysis of a real pro.

Ernie nailed it. All hail Ernie.

"Most of all, he has that quality you can't define. Call it Magic. As Bobby Boyd told me once about Unitas, 'Two things set him apart: His left testicle and his right testicle.'...We should move up to take him. These guys are rare you know.

There you go, enough said, THE IT FACTOR is what defines a true winner.

I remember them saying the same about Mark Sanchez. That he was the "alpha male" factor. He has "IT".

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 04:03 PM
I remember them saying the same about Mark Sanchez. That he was the "alpha male" factor. He has "IT".
Obviously he doesn't have IT bro. Even his mentor and coach Pete Carroll said many time to him and he had deaf-ears imploring Mark to stay in college because he was an " unfinished product " .

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 04:22 PM
Obviously he doesn't have IT bro. Even his mentor and coach Pete Carroll said many time to him and he had deaf-ears imploring Mark to stay in college because he was an " unfinished product " .
These things aren't obvious until you suit up and play a bit in the NFL.
There have been many QB's who teams hoped and believed had "IT", and didn't. And I'm sure many teams thought a guy like Brady didn't have 'IT" at all.

"IT" is hard to identify.

TrueBlue10
02-04-2013, 04:27 PM
The Redskins went 10-6 and made the playoffs.

Sorry, I wrote down the Panthers record twice. How did RG3 and his leg do in the playoffs? How did he injure that leg again?


horrible points trueblue, the question isnt that the QB should run more, its that he is faster and more mobile. flacco and big ben are that hybrid type they can do both.

This "hybrid" thing is meaningless. You're basically getting closer and closer to making the distinction "good" QBs and "not." Eli was able to make game-changing plays with his mobility, especially in his first SB year. But he's not some new-wave 1A. pass 1B. run kind of quarterback. Neither is Ben or Rodgers.


Aaron Rodgers ran for 356 in 2010.
Steve Young ran for 293 in 1994.

Which pales in comparison to the numbers folks like RG3, Cam, R. Wilson and Kaep put up. So ... yup!



And Kaepernick didn't lose because he ran the ball. He lost because he couldn't manage the clock and his defense stunk yesterday.

Didn't say that, but we're talking about "more mobile" QBs being the future and, based on everything we've seen up to now, no evidence is saying that.


Referring to Ben and Flacco as "hybrids" is way off the mark. They are just pocket passers (Ben to a far greater extent) who can extend plays with mobility.
I wouldn't say that Aaron Rodgers is a "hybrid" QB.

Exactly.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 05:02 PM
Sorry, I wrote down the Panthers record twice. How did RG3 and his leg do in the playoffs? How did he injure that leg again?



This "hybrid" thing is meaningless. You're basically getting closer and closer to making the distinction "good" QBs and "not." Eli was able to make game-changing plays with his mobility, especially in his first SB year. But he's not some new-wave 1A. pass 1B. run kind of quarterback. Neither is Ben or Rodgers.



Which pales in comparison to the numbers folks like RG3, Cam, R. Wilson and Kaep put up. So ... yup!



Didn't say that, but we're talking about "more mobile" QBs being the future and, based on everything we've seen up to now, no evidence is saying that.



Exactly.

I'm sorry, I wasn't responding to you directly in any of my posts so I'm not sure what you said or didn't say. I was just going along with the general conversation.
I suppose my ultimate point here is that while I agree that more and more QB's who have the kind of running skills as Kaepernick and Wilson will be coming to the NFL, they will only succeed if they have great passing skills as well. If they do they will be very hard to defend and will do their share of winning, including SB's. No reason to believe otherwise.
But its a passing league and you have to be able to drop back in the pocket and throw the ball effectively downfield to win in this league. Kaepernick and Wilson seem to be two guys who can do that. I'm not convinced that RGIII can.

Delicreep
02-04-2013, 05:29 PM
Days of collins and bledsoe are over , lead footed golems are not going to win anymore.

move in the athletic QB that can do both.

What shocks me is the speed at which this change was made.

A year ago, a QB who is basically a pocket passer with some mobility but couldn't win a foot race against a tree won the SB (and got the MVP)

Yesterday, a QB who is basically a pocket passer with some mobility wins the SB (and gets MVP).

I have to admit that watching Flacco play, I wasn't even sure that it was the same game that Manning plays--the way that they both dropped back into the pocket and ran the office from there, occasionally moving when under pressure.

It was revolutionary, really.

AllHailEli
02-04-2013, 05:57 PM
We've had mobile QBs forever. There is a lot of hoopla now just because it sells papers. Elway, Hostetler, Cunningham, Steve Young, Rodney Peete. So we have 4 QBs in the league that can run and throw....out of 32? Defenses need to gameplan for this breed, but it will not change who wins Super Bowls. Ultimately it will come down to a good offense, good quarterback, and good defense...and 3 years out of 4, I guarantee it will not be a mobile quarterback running the latest "pistol offense" at the big dance.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 06:00 PM
We've had mobile QBs forever. There is a lot of hoopla now just because it sells papers. Elway, Hostetler, Cunningham, Steve Young, Rodney Peete. So we have 4 QBs in the league that can run and throw....out of 32? Defenses need to gameplan for this breed, but it will not change who wins Super Bowls. Ultimately it will come down to a good offense, good quarterback, and good defense...and 3 years out of 4, I guarantee it will not be a mobile quarterback running the latest "pistol offense" at the big dance.
Well since less than 25% of teams run that type of offense, you seem to be saying that teams with running QB's actually have a comparitively better chance of winning the SB than teams with pure pocket passers.

BuffyBlueII
02-04-2013, 06:04 PM
I remember them saying the same about Mark Sanchez. That he was the "alpha male" factor. He has "IT".It is obvious that whoever claimed that about Sanchize was wrong and EA was spot on right with analysis of Eli Manning.

GameTime
02-04-2013, 06:07 PM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.
Flacco????
Ben????
Eli moves in the pocket enough to extend plays like Flacco and Ben for sure. Why is having a QB like Eli being stuck in the stone age??

AllHailEli
02-04-2013, 06:10 PM
Well since less than 25% of teams run that type of offense, you seem to be saying that teams with running QB's actually have a comparitively better chance of winning the SB than teams with pure pocket passers.
Well looking at how many of these QBs are entering the league within the past 2 years, the trend shows that more teams will opt for this type of QB. It'll even out, but my point is the statistics will eventually normalize to what we've had over the last 40+ years. Running and passing are nothing new...we haven't discovered the world wide web here.

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 06:15 PM
Well looking at how many of these QBs are entering the league within the past 2 years, the trend shows that more teams will opt for this type of QB. It'll even out, but my point is the statistics will eventually normalize to what we've had over the last 40+ years. Running and passing are nothing new...we haven't discovered the world wide web here.
There have been a few great QB's who can run. Steve Young for one and he won a SB. the other was Randall Cunningham who deserves to be in the HOF. That kid was great.
But we are starting to see more guys who are outstanding pocket passers as well as great runners. The QB position is simply going to have more and more athletic guys.
But most of the old running type QB's couldn't throw the ball like Kaepernick or Wilson. And that's the real story.

gumby74
02-04-2013, 06:17 PM
It is obvious that whoever claimed that about Sanchize was wrong and EA was spot on right with analysis of Eli Manning. Yeah but Eli isn't on Rex's arm ..

GameTime
02-04-2013, 06:19 PM
I agree Flacco didn't demonstrate his wheels much but he certainly has them. what he did do a lot was buy loads of extra time to get guys open.

Now lets say Kap had a Giants defense that could hold a team under 21 points , you tell me he doesn't win???

i agree with morehead that Kap was a young rookie and his first SB you get a bit nervous but still was good.
and Eli cant win with a defense that can keep a team under 21 in the SB????

GameTime
02-04-2013, 06:21 PM
why wouldnt I consider them hybrids??? they have designed running plays also. when you guys talk about "running qb's" it makes it seem they can't pass . i am telling you the wave of the future QB's can do both, and that is hard to defend.
they have designed running plays?? Ben and Flacco....???

ahhh....ok I guess.....

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 06:23 PM
Flacco????
Ben????
Eli moves in the pocket enough to extend plays like Flacco and Ben for sure. Why is having a QB like Eli being stuck in the stone age??
I'm sure you're not saying that Eli moves as well as either one of these guys....especially Ben. Right?

GameTime
02-04-2013, 06:23 PM
Days of collins and bledsoe are over , lead footed golems are not going to win anymore.

move in the athletic QB that can do both.
and obvioulsy you think thats what Eli is...a leadfooted golem....hmmm.....

GameTime
02-04-2013, 06:29 PM
I'm sure you're not saying that Eli moves as well as either one of these guys....especially Ben. Right?
no ....of course not. But I would never call Ben or Flacco a hybris like others here have...

Morehead State
02-04-2013, 06:32 PM
and obvioulsy you think thats what Eli is...a leadfooted golem....hmmm.....
A leadfooted, Goofy golem.

For the record I have no idea what a "golem" is but i approve of its use on this MB.

G-Men Surg.
02-04-2013, 06:48 PM
These things aren't obvious until you suit up and play a bit in the NFL.
There have been many QB's who teams hoped and believed had "IT", and didn't. And I'm sure many teams thought a guy like Brady didn't have 'IT" at all.

"IT" is hard to identify.
Agree. The measurables are there for all to see from afar but the intangibles are the most important aspect of any football player and for that matter in a QB to analize and obviously not a science like you said knowing who is going to pan out. That been said so many times the writting is on the wall about some players but FO, GMs and coaches get lost in the hype and make bad desicions all the time about drafting the wrong players.

Drez
02-04-2013, 06:51 PM
The Redskins went 10-6 and made the playoffs.And Seattle lost in the Divisional Round. However, Kaep only ran 2 or 3 times in the NFCCG win against Atlanta.

Drez
02-04-2013, 06:54 PM
they have designed running plays?? Ben and Flacco....???

ahhh....ok I guess.....Yeah. There might be a QB sneak in there, or an occasional boot. They have nothing like RG III, Kaep, or even Wilson.

AllHailEli
02-04-2013, 07:33 PM
Giants should draft the best available QB and not necessarily look for a Kaepernick breed. The best available QB when we next draft a franchise QB could be a Peyton Manning who is a pure pocket passer and we better not pass up on that guy so we can get someone more mobile. This is a fad right now, it would normalize eventually. If this mobile QB using pistol offense starts putting up "greatest show on turf" type numbers consistently, then we have a valid argument but until then there's nothing revolutionary here. Nothing that a defense can prepare and eventually defend.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 10:13 PM
they have designed running plays?? Ben and Flacco....???

ahhh....ok I guess.....


http://youtu.be/N93VaUytd4w

they both do , now it might be less than some rg3 and kap guys but they do have option and designed running plays.

FYI Eli cant even run a qb sneak.

FlyingTruck
02-04-2013, 10:20 PM
I'm sorry, but since when do the Giants follow trends set by other teams?

Drez
02-04-2013, 10:39 PM
they both do , now it might be less than some rg3 and kap guys but they do have option and designed running plays.

FYI Eli cant even run a qb sneak.

Just because Ben might have 10 or so designed runs a season doesn't make him a hybrid, nor even really say that it's a significant part of their offense.

Harooni
02-04-2013, 10:45 PM
Just because Ben might have 10 or so designed runs a season doesn't make him a hybrid, nor even really say that it's a significant part of their offense. as i said the capabilty is there its not about how much you use it .


as i tell my wife

TroyArcher
02-05-2013, 12:03 PM
Flacco? He is a classic drop back passer like Eli.

Delicreep
02-05-2013, 12:20 PM
as i said the capabilty is there its not about how much you use it .


as i tell my wife

First off...I think we all assume that "wife" is in quotes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Secondly...I think that your logic is flawed. Are you saying that if the Giants had a potential Tom Brady available, they should pass on him because there is a need for a QB to have the ability to be mobile?

That's crazy talk.

But if you are saying that, if all things are equal, pick the QB who is more mobile, then at least it's a defensible position.
I may think it's wrong, but defensible.

Thirdly, the "wave of the future" is at best a statistical anomaly. The fact that 2012 draft class had 3 QB's who fit your description does not mean that the class of 2013 (or 2014) will have any QB's that fit your description.

Or that the wave of the future will sweep the league.
Or that it will be proven successful long term.
Or that teams are saying anything more than "we need a tighter game plan against these guys"

Last wave of the future QB I remember was Cam Newton, and if you stopped watching football after the last SB, you just assumed that Newton won this one because he was unstoppable.

rebelfan1966
02-05-2013, 12:22 PM
Ben is not a mobile QB.... he is just big and hard to bring down. He is also hurt almost every season and he should probably be in prison. RGIII has proven what poor coaching can do to a great player. The Shanahans have severely jeopardized his career with all the run schemes they have him involved with.

Another flaw with this OP's POV is that he neglects to count for the fact defenses will evolve and be able to defend scrambling QBs in thei division more efficiently. Also, age and injuries creeps up on these guys much faster, and the next thing you know, they are drop back passers.

Give me a quality QB that can move around in the pocket to buy time, can read defenses, make correct adjustments at the LOS, and deliver an accurate ball.... Those are the guys who will continue to win Championships.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 12:43 PM
Ben is not a mobile QB.... he is just big and hard to bring down. He is also hurt almost every season and he should probably be in prison. RGIII has proven what poor coaching can do to a great player. The Shanahans have severely jeopardized his career with all the run schemes they have him involved with.

Another flaw with this OP's POV is that he neglects to count for the fact defenses will evolve and be able to defend scrambling QBs in thei division more efficiently. Also, age and injuries creeps up on these guys much faster, and the next thing you know, they are drop back passers.

Give me a quality QB that can move around in the pocket to buy time, can read defenses, make correct adjustments at the LOS, and deliver an accurate ball.... Those are the guys who will continue to win Championships.

Ben's not a running QB but he certainly is a mobile QB.
And you have to let go of this "Ben should be in prison" rap. You weren't there and you have no idea what did or didn't happen.

GameTime
02-05-2013, 01:27 PM
http://youtu.be/N93VaUytd4w

they both do , now it might be less than some rg3 and kap guys but they do have option and designed running plays.

FYI Eli cant even run a qb sneak.

ehh....Ben and Flacco are still not hybrids.....IMO.
if you think they are then so be it....

BurnerNYG
02-05-2013, 02:09 PM
I didn't read this whole thread, sorry but here's my short input. With what I did read I do tend to agree that eventually all QB's must develop into more of a pocket passer to not only win a championship but to also prolong their career. I don't think I would want a run first type QB like Vick but I wouldn't mind to have a guy who has scrambling abilities... meaning one who can escape the pocket if a play breaks down. Someone like a Geno Smith fits that mold... I like Johnny Manziel but I think he's a run first type and might get hurt in the NFL.

I wouldn't like a QB who's inaccurate or doesn't at least go through his reads before trying to take off unless the play is designed. I think when some of us say mobile QB's some of you guys get us confused. In years past, most scrambling QB's didn't win the big game because coaches didn't know how to use em right. Imagine a young Vick in the option offense, he probably would've been more effective.

Drez
02-05-2013, 02:31 PM
I didn't read this whole thread, sorry but here's my short input. With what I did read I do tend to agree that eventually all QB's must develop into more of a pocket passer to not only win a championship but to also prolong their career. I don't think I would want a run first type QB like Vick but I wouldn't mind to have a guy who has scrambling abilities... meaning one who can escape the pocket if a play breaks down. Someone like a Geno Smith fits that mold... I like Johnny Manziel but I think he's a run first type and might get hurt in the NFL.

I wouldn't like a QB who's inaccurate or doesn't at least go through his reads before trying to take off unless the play is designed. I think when some of us say mobile QB's some of you guys get us confused. In years past, most scrambling QB's didn't win the big game because coaches didn't know how to use em right. Imagine a young Vick in the option offense, he probably would've been more effective.
Vick would be horrible in an option offense. One of the biggest things you need in an option scheme (outside of the physical ability of course) is to be able to read defenses reasonably well. That is something that Vick has never excelled at.

Honestly, I don't care what kind of QB the Giants pick up after Eli is gone, so long as he's good. However, I'm not a terribly big fan of having too many designed runs for the QB. It's just too much wear and tear, and if you're going to pay a guy big bucks I'd prefer that we'd do all that we could to keep him healthy.

Joe Montana brought up a very interesting point today on the radio about running QBs and why they might become less effective than traditional drop back passers: What do you often see a RB do after a big run? Check himself out of the game for a couple plays while he catches his breath. As a QB, you can't do that. You have to stay in the game even if you're winded. And if you're winded, you might not be able to throw the ball as well or possibly even read the defense as well.

I don't know. I just thought that that was an interesting tidbit that I don't think anyone has mentioned before.

BurnerNYG
02-05-2013, 02:35 PM
Vick would be horrible in an option offense. One of the biggest things you need in an option scheme (outside of the physical ability of course) is to be able to read defenses reasonably well. That is something that Vick has never excelled at.

Honestly, I don't care what kind of QB the Giants pick up after Eli is gone, so long as he's good. However, I'm not a terribly big fan of having too many designed runs for the QB. It's just too much wear and tear, and if you're going to pay a guy big bucks I'd prefer that we'd do all that we could to keep him healthy.

Joe Montana brought up a very interesting point today on the radio about running QBs and why they might become less effective than traditional drop back passers: What do you often see a RB do after a big run? Check himself out of the game for a couple plays while he catches his breath. As a QB, you can't do that. You have to stay in the game even if you're winded. And if you're winded, you might not be able to throw the ball as well or possibly even read the defense as well.

I don't know. I just thought that that was an interesting tidbit that I don't think anyone has mentioned before.I said that to my wife the other day while watching the Superbowl. It's a true assessment and I always wondered how physically drained a QB felt after a long run. As far as reading a defense in the option offense, your number one read is reading the defensive end. Vick could've done that.

Drez
02-05-2013, 02:50 PM
As far as reading a defense in the option offense, your number one read is reading the defensive end. Vick could've done that.I don't know about that, lol. j/k, mostly, I think.

BurnerNYG
02-05-2013, 02:55 PM
I don't know about that, lol. j/k, mostly, I think.Lol

TrueBlue10
02-05-2013, 02:55 PM
http://youtu.be/N93VaUytd4w

they both do , now it might be less than some rg3 and kap guys but they do have option and designed running plays.

FYI Eli cant even run a qb sneak.

What a great QB sneak that was! Almost got in the endzone too! =P

rebelfan1966
02-05-2013, 04:04 PM
Ben's not a running QB but he certainly is a mobile QB.
And you have to let go of this "Ben should be in prison" rap. You weren't there and you have no idea what did or didn't happen.

He is slow, but he does have adequate "vision" that allows him to slide outside the pocket. That is not really my definition of a mobile QB. RGIII, Kapernick, Vick, Ect.... are mobile QBs. As for the other, I subscribe to the "where there is smoke, there is fire". How many young girls made similar accusations? Just goes to prove money and fame will sometimes get you out of trouble. (my opinion)

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 04:14 PM
He is slow, but he does have adequate "vision" that allows him to slide outside the pocket. That is not really my definition of a mobile QB. RGIII, Kapernick, Vick, Ect.... are mobile QBs. As for the other, I subscribe to the "where there is smoke, there is fire". How many young girls made similar accusations? Just goes to prove money and fame will sometimes get you out of trouble. (my opinion)
I have no idea what happened in the incident several years ago. But you and I know that there are many unfortunate souls out there who try to trap pro athletes. Again, I have no idea what happened (nor do you) and guys who are out partying are far more likely to have to deal with this, but its definitely a trend in the world of pro athletes.
You are taking huge leaps and assumptions with Ben. Don't know why.

gumby74
02-05-2013, 04:15 PM
I have no idea what happened in the incident several years ago. But you and I know that there are many unfortunate souls out there who try to trap pro athletes. Again, I have no idea what happened (nor do you) and guys who are out partying are far more likely to have to deal with this, but its definitely a trend in the world of pro athletes.
You are taking huge leaps and assumptions with Ben. Don't know why.

c'mon now really?

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 04:21 PM
c'mon now really?
I'm not going to argue this thing again.
My point here was a response to the blanket statement made that "Ben should be in prison". Rebelfan has a problem with Ben and that statement is a HUGE leap.
Oh and by the way, completely irrelevant to this thread topic.
So I called him on it.

rebelfan1966
02-05-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm not going to argue this thing again.
My point here was a response to the blanket statement made that "Ben should be in prison". Rebelfan has a problem with Ben and that statement is a HUGE leap.
Oh and by the way, completely irrelevant to this thread topic.
So I called him on it.

The OP introduced Ben to the conversation. I just pointed out I don't think he is a mobile QB, least wise how I define a mobile QB. The other part of my assesment just comes from a football fan who is tired of seeing unethical players get away with murder. Whenever someone idolizes this person, I feel I must point out his one huge flaw. Ben put himself into that category of players when he decided to go to a bar full of drunk, barely legal (maybe), girls.... and escort one to the bathroom while his goons guarded the door. If he was any kind of person, he would not have been there with those young girls to start with... but since he was, he should have been responsible enought to have kept his pants zipped. The right thing to have done is bought the girl a cab ride home, not take advantage of an unfortunate situation. Of course, maybe you feel otherwise, and that is your perogative. I don't see any difference in taking advantage of a drunk girl thank slipping her a drug in her drink. I just know if the young lady had been one of my daughters..... By the way, he never denied what happened in the bathroom. He just said it was consentual.... again, what a jerk for taking advantage of a drunk, younger, girl. OK... I will let this one go, I know he is your hero.

Morehead State
02-05-2013, 05:20 PM
The OP introduced Ben to the conversation. I just pointed out I don't think he is a mobile QB, least wise how I define a mobile QB. The other part of my assesment just comes from a football fan who is tired of seeing unethical players get away with murder. Whenever someone idolizes this person, I feel I must point out his one huge flaw. Ben put himself into that category of players when he decided to go to a bar full of drunk, barely legal (maybe), girls.... and escort one to the bathroom while his goons guarded the door. If he was any kind of person, he would not have been there with those young girls to start with... but since he was, he should have been responsible enought to have kept his pants zipped. The right thing to have done is bought the girl a cab ride home, not take advantage of an unfortunate situation. Of course, maybe you feel otherwise, and that is your perogative. I don't see any difference in taking advantage of a drunk girl thank slipping her a drug in her drink. I just know if the young lady had been one of my daughters..... By the way, he never denied what happened in the bathroom. He just said it was consentual.... again, what a jerk for taking advantage of a drunk, younger, girl. OK... I will let this one go, I know he is your hero.

I have no affection for Ben Roethlisberger. I like him as a QB and thats it. I think he can play.
All these pro athletes are often self important dopes who think they are entitled to anything they want. Unfortunately, there are women out there who are perfectly willing to give it to them. I assume that Ben is just another example of that.
And I'm sure your daughters would never find themselves in that situation. I know my daughters (and I have 3) wouldn't as well.

The bottom line is that I don't want to know what these guys do in their private lives. Just go play.

Getting back to football, Ben is very mobile in the pocket and behind the LOS in general. What he does is what most great QB's do. They move to create time and are constantly looking downfield to find the open guy. He doesn't just look once and tuck it and run.

I Hate T.O.
02-05-2013, 05:44 PM
its obvious the hybrid guys who are a true double threat like RG3,Kapernick Big ben, Flacco . these guys are not scramblers but true hybrid beings using todays modern technology to win Superbowls.

we can't get stuck in a stone aged old fashion one way to skin a cat thinking process.


Flacco?....He's a statue....gimme a statue over a hybrid anytime....

BigBlueAllDay
02-05-2013, 06:02 PM
Regular season is not about winning the Superbowl as much as being able to get into the playoffs first.
Teams will run their mobile QBs, read option offense, because that's going to be effective in winning a game and getting a W against a team with a mediocre LB core. The perennial playoff losing teams will never pity teams that don't get into the playoffs, deserving or not.

Redeyejedi
02-05-2013, 08:45 PM
When's the last time a truly mobile QB won a SB? I'm not just talking a scrambler like Rodgers, I mean a full on QB that is not afraid to run... If u say Steve Young then u have to include Rodgers he runs just as much as he did