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Rudyy
02-01-2013, 06:52 PM
Another Cruz thread? :(

It's not likely we'll lose hin for 2013, if at allLove the optimism.

YES, ANOTHER CRUZ THREAD.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:54 PM
bingo

I just added another link of John Mara's comments to the REAL Cruz thread :) In that report, Mara says they "have a year" to work this out so they are clearly not giving up on Cruz even if they have to tender him, they will continue to negotiate with his people.

80and88
02-01-2013, 06:55 PM
Could someone give me the dates of restricted free agency? also, why does Cruz say we have a year to work it out. He could be gone this year? A receiver needy team like the phins could offer him 10 million a year, the Giants choose not to match, and the phins send the Giants their 1st rounder, and walla Cruz is wearing white and green next year. Am I missing something?

Thanks guys.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:55 PM
Love the optimism.

YES, ANOTHER CRUZ THREAD.

If you weren't his intended, it would have been axed

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 06:55 PM
Post 187that's too much work. Ughh, I have to click like two pages backk urggghghghh.

80and88
02-01-2013, 06:55 PM
by next year I mean the upcoming season..

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 06:59 PM
Does that mean we draft a WR in the 1st? Or do we ride with Nicks/Randle/Hixon/Jernigan?We have a 31th ranked defense and Nicks is the only solid WR, of course you can 'ride' with those players but you won't get far.

80and88
02-01-2013, 07:01 PM
Is it a safe bet to assume Cruz will get the highest Tender? 1st and 3rd?

Moke
02-01-2013, 07:01 PM
Another Cruz thread? :(

It's not likely we'll lose him for 2013, if at all

It's a "what-if" thread, which is an awesome thread idea so people can form opinions. When we have to see "TOM COUGHLIN PICKS NOSE AT TRAINING CAMP" threads created by yours truly....... then that really has no room for discussion.

Don't be mad that Rudyy here came up with a viable discussion thread that creates activity on the board.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:02 PM
Could someone give me the dates of restricted free agency? also, why does Cruz say we have a year to work it out. He could be gone this year? A receiver needy team like the phins could offer him 10 million a year, the Giants choose not to match, and the phins send the Giants their 1st rounder, and walla Cruz is wearing white and green next year. Am I missing something?

Thanks guys.

Cruz didn't say that, John Mara said they have a year to work it out. You have the gist of RFA but 1st round draft picks are not easy to give away and Cruz would have to think long and hard about the prpospects of another team being in the playoff hunt in 2013. It makes no sense for him to go to a team who isn't well placed to be in the hunt. You can be the best receiver on the planet but if you are playing for a 3 - 13 team it's all for nothing.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 07:02 PM
It's his team, but not his money. The players' salaries are completely covered by TV contracts
that i did not know...learned something new today. So all that money the team brings in for tickets, merchandise, concessions etc...go directly into his pocket?

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:02 PM
Is it a safe bet to assume Cruz will get the highest Tender? 1st and 3rd?

It's now only a 1st, the rules changed

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:06 PM
that i did not know...learned something new today. So all that money the team brings in for tickets, merchandise, concessions etc...go directly into his pocket?

Not really, it goes into the business and he gets a salary like everyone else. I will bet he doesn't get Eli's salary lol

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 07:07 PM
Does that mean we draft a WR in the 1st? Or do we ride with Nicks/Randle/Hixon/Jernigan?

Please no. This team has put enough investments into the WR position the last few years. I mean I guess Cordarrelle Patterson or Keenan Allen wouldn't be the worst picks in the world but it's just not a strong draft up top for the position. Better off going in the mid to late range.

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 07:10 PM
If we lose Cruz, Giants can draft another wr but not rule out other options. Giants really don't have a Speed guy and they should look for one even if they don't lose Cruz.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 07:12 PM
I said this also yeterday and got flamed for it...I doubt we go WR in the first, but if another value player like what happened with Reuben Randle drops to us again we are going to draft him. Think about it, there is a possibility that we lose Cruz and Nicks, they both are gonna command big contracts. Even if they stay where is the depth behind them?

Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Jernigan..only receivers currently signed for next season..who is our #5 and # 6 receivers? Barden most likely will not be re-signed and Hixon also might not be re-signed even though i think he has been a good player for us. We need 1 or 2 receivers no matter what way you look at it

80and88
02-01-2013, 07:15 PM
Thanks Ro. I know everyone loves cruz. As do I, but think what two firsts could get us. I realize that no one is guaranteed to be a star, but two firsts? lock down RT, and maybe even a Mike backer that we all want. Or whatever combo you want/BPA. RT and a CB, RT and a DE? I'm torn between the want of another 1st and the nightmare of letting Cruz walk.

Ugh.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:16 PM
Thanks Ro. I know everyone loves cruz. As do I, but think what two firsts could get us. I realize that no one is guaranteed to be a star, but two firsts? lock down RT, and maybe even a Mike backer that we all want. Or whatever combo you want/BPA. RT and a CB, RT and a DE? I'm torn between the want of another 1st and the nightmare of letting Cruz walk.

Ugh.

I get your point, but usually better to keep a proven play maker if you can.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:18 PM
Please no. This team has put enough investments into the WR position the last few years. I mean I guess Cordarrelle Patterson or Keenan Allen wouldn't be the worst picks in the world but it's just not a strong draft up top for the position. Better off going in the mid to late range.That's what I was afraid of as well if Cruz left. I would hate to see our 1st pick be a wide out but if he does leave....

KidA
02-01-2013, 07:18 PM
If we lost Cruz the best thing to do would be to bring in a decent free agent with some experience and a manageable price tag. Someone who's reliable but not elite.

We already have enough developing young talent at WR and we need our draft picks for LB, OL, DL, etc.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:19 PM
I said this also yeterday and got flamed for it...I doubt we go WR in the first, but if another value player like what happened with Reuben Randle drops to us again we are going to draft him. Think about it, there is a possibility that we lose Cruz and Nicks, they both are gonna command big contracts. Even if they stay where is the depth behind them?

Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Jernigan..only receivers currently signed for next season..who is our #5 and # 6 receivers? Barden most likely will not be re-signed and Hixon also might not be re-signed even though i think he has been a good player for us. We need 1 or 2 receivers no matter what way you look at itI would hate to see us spend a 1st or 2nd on a WR unless he's like a Megatron or whatever.

Carter.525
02-01-2013, 07:22 PM
I would hate to see us spend a 1st or 2nd on a WR unless he's like a Megatron or whatever.

don't think there's a Megatron in the draft this year..

Flip Empty
02-01-2013, 07:22 PM
“I have no answer to that,” Cruz told the News when asked if he would consider a holdout.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/2013/02/as-contract-talks-continue-to-stall-cruz-doesnt-rule-out-holdout

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 07:23 PM
If we lost Cruz the best thing to do would be to bring in a decent free agent with some experience and a manageable price tag. Someone who's reliable but not elite.

We already have enough developing young talent at WR and we need our draft picks for LB, OL, DL, etc.

we have 4 receivers signed today...I don't get these we have enough WR statements. We have 2 slots to fill by either drafting or re-signing Hixon and Barden or 2 FA's

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 07:24 PM
I would hate to see us spend a 1st or 2nd on a WR unless he's like a Megatron or whatever.

that's a once in a generation type player...just as Jerry Rice was in his time

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:25 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/2013/02/as-contract-talks-continue-to-stall-cruz-doesnt-rule-out-holdout

More posturing

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:26 PM
don't think there's a Megatron in the draft this year..I know that lol.

Carter.525
02-01-2013, 07:26 PM
we have 4 receivers signed today...I don't get these we have enough WR statements. We have 2 slots to fill by either drafting or re-signing Hixon and Barden or 2 FA's

probally Barden & Hixon option..

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:26 PM
that's a once in a generation type player...just as Jerry Rice was in his timeI wasn't trying to be serious. This draft class isn't that great, was just using Megatron as an example, probably not a good example but oh well haha.

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 07:27 PM
Cruz didn't say that, John Mara said they have a year to work it out. You have the gist of RFA but 1st round draft picks are not easy to give away and Cruz would have to think long and hard about the prpospects of another team being in the playoff hunt in 2013. It makes no sense for him to go to a team who isn't well placed to be in the hunt. You can be the best receiver on the planet but if you are playing for a 3 - 13 team it's all for nothing.

It's not all for nothing if you're making 10+ million a year. For many players its all about the money. We don't know yet if this is how Cruz is thinking but we'll soon find out.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:29 PM
It's not all for nothing if you're making 10+ million a year. For many players its all about the money. We don't know yet if this is how Cruz is thinking but we'll soon find out.

Perhaps, but playing in the largest media market in the world is very different from, say Cleveland. Cruz has already benefited from commercial exposure that would dry up in most other markets.

Flip Empty
02-01-2013, 07:29 PM
More posturing
I'd just hate to see this get to the point where Cruz is riding a bike while the rest of the team practices.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 07:30 PM
i know u weren't. And if there was a megatron junior in this years draft we should trade up. This a weak WR class, you are right

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 07:31 PM
I said this also yeterday and got flamed for it...I doubt we go WR in the first, but if another value player like what happened with Reuben Randle drops to us again we are going to draft him. Think about it, there is a possibility that we lose Cruz and Nicks, they both are gonna command big contracts. Even if they stay where is the depth behind them?

Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Jernigan..only receivers currently signed for next season..who is our #5 and # 6 receivers? Barden most likely will not be re-signed and Hixon also might not be re-signed even though i think he has been a good player for us. We need 1 or 2 receivers no matter what way you look at it

Nicks needs to stay healthy this year or he'll have no leg to stand on. No pun intended.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:31 PM
I'd just hate to see this get to the point where Cruz is riding a bike while the rest of the team practices.

Me too

ozzie0075
02-01-2013, 07:32 PM
Cruz is a restricted FA its very unlikely he is going anywhere. And very few teams would be willing to give up a 1st (Assuming that's his tender) plus the huge amount of money he will get. Teams can always find guys that can catch the football.

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 07:33 PM
Perhaps, but playing in the largest media market in the world is very different from, say Cleveland. Cruz has already benefited from commercial exposure that would dry up in most other markets.

True, but I kind of think the Salsa is really what made him a household name. Not so much playing in New York.

KidA
02-01-2013, 07:33 PM
Nicks needs to stay healthy this year or he'll have no leg to stand on. No pun intended.

How is that a pun?

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:35 PM
Cruz is a restricted FA its very unlikely he is going anywhere. And very few teams would be willing to give up a 1st (Assuming that's his tender) plus the huge amount of money he will get. Teams can always find guys that can catch the football.True, true.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:38 PM
True, but I kind of think the Salsa is really what made him a household name. Not so much playing in New York.

The exposure is what he benefits from and it's like nowhere else. He wouldn't be the poster boy for Campbells' Soup in Carolina, as an example. Plus his business interests in clothing are also in the fashion capital of the world. He's already done a lot to assure his and his family's future. John Maras "sales pitch" touched on that.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:39 PM
How is that a pun?

Leg - stand

ozzie0075
02-01-2013, 07:40 PM
True, true.

The bigger issue seems that the way things are going this could turn into a long holdout.

BlueReign
02-01-2013, 07:44 PM
Cruz for Revis lol

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 07:45 PM
Cruz for Revis lolHell


































no

Flip Empty
02-01-2013, 07:50 PM
The exposure is what he benefits from and it's like nowhere else. He wouldn't be the poster boy for Campbells' Soup in Carolina, as an example. Plus his business interests in clothing are also in the fashion capital of the world. He's already done a lot to assure his and his family's future. John Maras "sales pitch" touched on that.
we're lucky the Jets' cap situation is worse

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 07:58 PM
we're lucky the Jets' cap situation is worse

That would kill me lol

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 08:11 PM
I like Cruz and all but he is replaceable. Especially if we get a first round pick for him.

joemorrisforprez
02-01-2013, 08:18 PM
I shudder thinking what Cruz could do against Perry Fewell's defense......total nightmare scenario.

Ruttiger711
02-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Hell noOnly because of the ACL injury, otherwise that's a done deal.

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 08:26 PM
Sure because Revis would be easier to negotiate with! Lol.

B-Red22
02-01-2013, 08:46 PM
How many cruz threads are u gonna make Rudy

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 08:48 PM
How many cruz threads are u gonna make RudyUNTIL HE SIGNS HIS EXTENSION

Just kidding, this is only my..second one I believe? Yeah, but probably my last. Just wanted to know some opinions.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 08:49 PM
Does that mean we draft a WR in the 1st? Or do we ride with Nicks/Randle/Hixon/Jernigan?Next man up!!!

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 08:55 PM
I like Cruz and all but he is replaceable. Especially if we get a first round pick for him.

And if that first round pick is a lineman, DB, LB?

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 08:58 PM
Next man up!!!Can Jernigan do the Salsa? lol

Flip Empty
02-01-2013, 08:59 PM
If he was easily replaceable, every team would have a Cruz.

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-01-2013, 09:01 PM
If he was easily replaceable, every team would have a Cruz.

its amazing isnt it?

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 09:01 PM
If he was easily replaceable, every team would have a Cruz.I agree, the only person similar to Cruz is Welker no one elsle comes close.

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 09:22 PM
The one thing that I wouldn't miss is that silly salsa.

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 09:24 PM
The one thing that I wouldn't miss is that silly salsa.I wouldn't miss it either, I would miss those TDs however

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Why wold they have to draft a WR in the 1st? They have enough WR's and a good QB. Besides, he will be on the he team this year at least.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 09:48 PM
Why wold they have to draft a WR in the 1st? They have enough WR's and a good QB. Besides, he will be on the he team this year at least.Well If they are so far apart in talks that it's taking a while to get a deal done. I'm just speaking hypothetically of course. If he decides to go else where that would leave Nicks Randle..and who else?

I would definitely hate the idea of drafting another WR.

Carter.525
02-01-2013, 09:50 PM
Can Jernigan do the Salsa? lol

river dance..

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 09:51 PM
river dance..Eh, that's not original.

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 09:51 PM
They drafted JJ just last year. Just because he hasn't played much doesn't mean they are giving up on him. A healthy Nicks and more experienced Randle could open things up for a guy like JJ. Don't really know what to think as of now. They have so many problems with money that cold be the reason why they can't get to Cruz yet.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 09:53 PM
Can Jernigan do the Salsa? lolThe robot

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 09:54 PM
They drafted JJ just last year. Just because he hasn't played much doesn't mean they are giving up on him. A healthy Nicks and more experienced Randle could open things up for a guy like JJ. Don't really know what to think as of now. They have so many problems with money that cold be the reason why they can't get to Cruz yet.It's all hypothetical. Haven't seen much of JJ to make a comment about him.

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 09:59 PM
It's all hypothetical. Haven't seen much of JJ to make a comment about him.Do you think Reese is a good GM?

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 10:04 PM
Do you think Reese is a good GM?What? Yeah..

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 10:05 PM
What? Yeah..So then just trust the pick.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 10:11 PM
So then just trust the pick.Dude, haha I didn't say anything about not trusting whoever he picks. The hell did this come from. The only thing I would hate is drafting another WR.

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 10:14 PM
Dude, haha I didn't say anything about not trusting whoever he picks. The hell did this come from. The only thing I would hate is drafting another WR.You said you haven't seen enough of JJ to comment. No one has. You just have to trust his pick for now.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 10:16 PM
You said you haven't seen enough of JJ to comment. No one has. You just have to trust his pick for now.I didn't say he was a bad player, I'm saying I can't say he's good or bad because I have not seen him play yet.

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 10:18 PM
I didn't say he was a bad player, I'm saying I can't say he's good or bad because I have not seen him play yet.No one can, but IF they did lose Cruz you just have to trust in Reese.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 10:19 PM
No one can, but IF they did lose Cruz you just have to trust in Reese.I never said I didn't..

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 10:22 PM
Never said you did. Like you said, this is all hypothetical. So the only thing we can do is trust in his picks. Again, I don't think they lose Cruz but if they did Reese has set them up in a position to succeed. JJ may never be another Cruz but the talent around him can make him an even better player.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 10:37 PM
And if that first round pick is a lineman, DB, LB?Then we can use our other 1st rd pick for a wr or maybe a rookie free agent.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 10:40 PM
All I'm saying is everybody panicked when Smith left and we all know how that worked out.

giant-4-life
02-01-2013, 10:47 PM
I'm not worried about it.people who are smart with their money, do better. no reason to jack up our financials over one player.We shall see how much of a team player he really is.

seems to me like he's being a bit prima donna with all this contract talk. Sure money is the way of business. I remember when we let steve smith go. I wasn't as cool headed as I am now.

people, we will be fine. we seem to have a great scout team who finds the diamonds in the rough

giant-4-life
02-01-2013, 10:56 PM
I just added another link of John Mara's comments to the REAL Cruz thread :) In that report, Mara says they "have a year" to work this out so they are clearly not giving up on Cruz even if they have to tender him, they will continue to negotiate with his people.

Couldn't we just offer Cruz more bonus money vs contract money? I'm not expert of football finances but I have heard that a team could feasibly offer 20 mil over time and break it down as 15 million bonus and 5 million contract?

I understand that bonus money doesn't count against the cap. personally as a cruz type of player, I would love more guaranteed money then contract funds.

VBGiantsFan
02-02-2013, 12:21 AM
I'm not worried about it.people who are smart with their money, do better. no reason to jack up our financials over one player.We shall see how much of a team player he really is.

seems to me like he's being a bit prima donna with all this contract talk. Sure money is the way of business. I remember when we let steve smith go. I wasn't as cool headed as I am now.

people, we will be fine. we seem to have a great scout team who finds the diamonds in the rough

I disagree and think Cruz is truly special and easily the most explosive player on our team.

That being said, if we can keep Cruz at the tendered price, he and Nicks can have a play off this year for who gets the big contract and who goes to a different team. As of now, Randle looks like a better replacement for Nicks than Cruz.

For the record, there was a reason Arizona couldn't afford Boldin and Fitzgerald. It's impossible to keep 2 arguably top 10 WRs. I doubt Atlanta will be doing it for much longer either.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 06:46 AM
Then we can use our other 1st rd pick for a wr or maybe a rookie free agent.

As we've learned over time, the team does not always share our thoughts on draft selections.

nhpgiantsfan
02-02-2013, 06:54 AM
I'm not worried about it.people who are smart with their money, do better. no reason to jack up our financials over one player.We shall see how much of a team player he really is.

seems to me like he's being a bit prima donna with all this contract talk. Sure money is the way of business. I remember when we let steve smith go. I wasn't as cool headed as I am now.

people, we will be fine. we seem to have a great scout team who finds the diamonds in the rough

So in your opinion, if a player wants to be paid a salary that is comparable to other players that play the same position, it makes him not a team player??

Why is Victor not worth the money that other similar WR's are being paid. It has nothing to do with team player. It's all business. I haven't heard anything from him that makes him sound like a prima donna. Actually, so far he is saying all the right things.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 06:54 AM
I'm not worried about it.people who are smart with their money, do better. no reason to jack up our financials over one player.We shall see how much of a team player he really is.

seems to me like he's being a bit prima donna with all this contract talk. Sure money is the way of business. I remember when we let steve smith go. I wasn't as cool headed as I am now.

people, we will be fine. we seem to have a great scout team who finds the diamonds in the rough

We will be fine, no question. The question is when will we be fine? By most accounts, we are still in a position to contend in 2013. For two years, Cruz has been a major piece of the puzzle in terms of receivers having lead the team for the two years he's played. While I agree everyone is replaceable, including Eli, the real question is who and when. As others have said, and some others have argued, Cruz may not be as easily replaced in the short term as we'd like.

John Mara has made the teams position clear. Cruz's handlers are asking for too much, they want to come to terms on a long term deal, they will apply the tender of a first round pick if they have to and they will continue to work on a long term deal throughout 2013. Personally, I think that makes it unlikely Cruz will return after he's a UFA, but stranger things have happened.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 06:59 AM
Couldn't we just offer Cruz more bonus money vs contract money? I'm not expert of football finances but I have heard that a team could feasibly offer 20 mil over time and break it down as 15 million bonus and 5 million contract?

I understand that bonus money doesn't count against the cap. personally as a cruz type of player, I would love more guaranteed money then contract funds.

I was wondering that myself. I know the tender equals $2.8M for the season which is really not a fair offer for Cruz's talents. What I don't know is can they sweeten that in any way? We may never know unless another team makes Cruz a bona fide offer. But let's say no team is willing to cough up a first round pick. Can the Giants then offer him something on top of the tender amount as a show of good faith that they want a long term deal?

nhpgiantsfan
02-02-2013, 07:07 AM
Couldn't we just offer Cruz more bonus money vs contract money? I'm not expert of football finances but I have heard that a team could feasibly offer 20 mil over time and break it down as 15 million bonus and 5 million contract?

I understand that bonus money doesn't count against the cap. personally as a cruz type of player, I would love more guaranteed money then contract funds.

The bonus money does count towards the cap. It gets spread out over the length of the deal. So if he signs for 5 years and gets a 20 million signing bonus, it gets spread as 4 million per year on the cap. If he gets released before the end of the contract all remaining bonus money gets placed on that years cap. Thus the term "cap hit".

Ruttiger711
02-02-2013, 07:09 AM
So in your opinion, if a player wants to be paid a salary that is comparable to other players that play the same position, it makes him not a team player??

Why is Victor not worth the money that other similar WR's are being paid. It has nothing to do with team player. It's all business. I haven't heard anything from him that makes him sound like a prima donna. Actually, so far he is saying all the right things.

Well therein lies what they're talking about/disputing. Comparable to who? They are even going to disagree on what version of Cruz they're signing

v2011 or
v2012

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 07:10 AM
The bonus money does count towards the cap. It gets spread out over the length of the deal. So if he signs for 5 years and gets a 20 million signing bonus, it gets spread as 4 million per year on the cap. If he gets released before the end of the contract all remaining bonus money gets placed on that years cap. Thus the term "cap hit".

It all counts towards the CAP, but you are right, bonuses are spread out over the term of the contract. It's a very complicated system lol

nhpgiantsfan
02-02-2013, 07:50 AM
That's all fine. But it's not fair to call Cruz a "prima donna" or "not a team player" until it is actually known what he is looking for.

Flip Empty
02-02-2013, 07:57 AM
When contracts are concerned, there is no team. The league makes billions off of its players, they deserve their share.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 08:05 AM
When contracts are concerned, there is no team. The league makes billions off of its players, they deserve their share.

A point lost on many.

jomo
02-02-2013, 08:08 AM
said the Giants should pay him for his "activism, his brand and his community involvement." Ugh, where do I begin?

Let's start with activism. We pay people to play football AND produce results. "Activism, whatever that means, is on Cruz's time. Whatever floats his boat, is great but not worth a nickle to the fans.

Next, his brand. I think young Mr. Cruz has this one backward. His so called "brand" is greatly enhance by the team he plays for and the city where that team plays. If anyone is going to pay for the brand, it would be Cruz giving the NYG a discount because he can build that post football brand bigger and better here than he ever could in Kansas City for example. That brand should be worth more to him when his playing days are over.

Lastly, the community involvement comment. Every play should do a certain amount of that as part of their responsibility to the team, its fan base and the neighborhoods which support him/them. For a guy who aspires to being media savvy, he has jumped his train from the tracks.

It sounds rehearsed to me which means his handlers are feeding him the wrong words. He needs to take charge of his own life and fire a few advisors and begin to speak for himself. I can't believe that these are his own words, If they are we've got bigger problems looming.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 08:09 AM
Well therein lies what they're talking about/disputing. Comparable to who? They are even going to disagree on what version of Cruz they're signing

v2011 or
v2012

It's his whole body of work, not one season or an other. And now they add his 10 catch record in the Pro Bowl to his resume. YES, we can all say "it was the Pro Bowl" but no other receiver has ever done it and he caught those passes from three different receivers. It all factors into his NFL worth.

Victor believes he's a top receiver and it's hard to argue with that. How "top" will be determined by the market. I think he's a top 10 - 15 receiver.

jomo
02-02-2013, 08:10 AM
It's his whole body of work, not one season or an other. And now they add his 10 catch record in the Pro Bowl to his resume. YES, we can all say "it was the Pro Bowl" but no other receiver has ever done it and he caught those passes from three different receivers. It all factors into his NFL worth.

Victor believes he's a top receiver and it's hard to argue with that. How "top" will be determined by the market. I think he's a top 10 - 15 receiver.Top 10-15 seems about right to me.

brad
02-02-2013, 08:19 AM
I agree with the majority of the posters here that they need to sign Cruz... but within reason. They are already over cap as it is. If Cruz is seeking 10 mill a year, is he worth that much to the Giants? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, in this case if they spend 10 mill a year for him that means they will not have that money to retain other free agents or sign much needed help in other areas. What is more important, linemen to protect your QB so he can throw the ball or the WR? How much will Cruz accomplish if his QB is lying on his back?

It all starts in the trenches, and I think most would agree that the OL had it's issues last year. Locklear, Beatty, and Boothe are also free agents. Lose them and keeping Cruz on the roster will make absolutely no difference. Signing those three doesn't fix the O-line problem, it just keeps it from getting worse, ultimately they need to go out and get additional help.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 08:21 AM
Top 10-15 seems about right to me.

The kid has talent, this is really not unlike any other contract negotiation other than the dollars involved. The employees always aim higher than is reason able and are brought down to earth in a series of offers and counteroffers. Not being on the inside makes it very difficult for any of us to know how far apart they might be but John Mara seems to be setting the right tone for a deal to be worked out.

I can't find that article you read but I did see it somewhere. My take was that he was saying he's a talented player and a good citizen who doesn't cause problems in his personal life. I agree that has nothing to do with his football value, but since the team and the NFL can take punitive action against players for "conduct detrimental" I think it's worth mentioning if your in the Cruz camp.



I have wondered how much of an issue his contract would be if the CAP was not what it is. Maybe it wouldn't matter.

brad
02-02-2013, 08:30 AM
said the Giants should pay him for his "activism, his brand and his community involvement." Ugh, where do I begin?

Let's start with activism. We pay people to play football AND produce results. "Activism, whatever that means, is on Cruz's time. Whatever floats his boat, is great but not worth a nickle to the fans.

Next, his brand. I think young Mr. Cruz has this one backward. His so called "brand" is greatly enhance by the team he plays for and the city where that team plays. If anyone is going to pay for the brand, it would be Cruz giving the NYG a discount because he can build that post football brand bigger and better here than he ever could in Kansas City for example. That brand should be worth more to him when his playing days are over.

Lastly, the community involvement comment. Every play should do a certain amount of that as part of their responsibility to the team, its fan base and the neighborhoods which support him/them. For a guy who aspires to being media savvy, he has jumped his train from the tracks.

It sounds rehearsed to me which means his handlers are feeding him the wrong words. He needs to take charge of his own life and fire a few advisors and begin to speak for himself. I can't believe that these are his own words, If they are we've got bigger problems looming.

I believe it was this article (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/giants-wr-cruz-wants-big-004005284--nfl.html)

I wasn't sure how to react to it. If he really expects to be paid for his "brand", community involvement or "activism"... he is in the wrong business.
I

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 08:46 AM
Where were you Cruz in the games against the Bengals, Falcons and Ravens? You did nothin.

jomo
02-02-2013, 08:58 AM
The kid has talent, this is really not unlike any other contract negotiation other than the dollars involved. The employees always aim higher than is reason able and are brought down to earth in a series of offers and counteroffers. Not being on the inside makes it very difficult for any of us to know how far apart they might be but John Mara seems to be setting the right tone for a deal to be worked out.

I can't find that article you read but I did see it somewhere. My take was that he was saying he's a talented player and a good citizen who doesn't cause problems in his personal life. I agree that has nothing to do with his football value, but since the team and the NFL can take punitive action against players for "conduct detrimental" I think it's worth mentioning if your in the Cruz camp.



I have wondered how much of an issue his contract would be if the CAP was not what it is. Maybe it wouldn't matter.The article was in the Post this morning. I am sympathetic to young players getting manipulated by their new best friends a/k/a agents. All of this can be worked out privately but the agents figure they will wrangle more money out of management by going public. That puts the player at odd with the team and the fans which is not helpful on a number of levels. The words just sounded canned to me which means to me that someone is trying to craft his message. IMO the message about activism and brand ring hollow.

Flip Empty
02-02-2013, 09:00 AM
Where were you Cruz in the games against the Bengals, Falcons and Ravens? You did nothin.
Where was Eli?

brad
02-02-2013, 09:00 AM
Where were you Cruz in the games against the Bengals, Falcons and Ravens? You did nothin.

I don't think that is all on Cruz, this is a team sport... which is the point I guess. When you spend so much money on one player there could be negative consequences to the team as a whole. Cruz is an important piece of the team, but how important is the question. Is he more important than the O-line? Is he more important than the LBs?

Flip Empty
02-02-2013, 09:04 AM
I don't think that is all on Cruz, this is a team sport... which is the point I guess. When you spend so much money on one player there could be negative consequences to the team as a whole. Cruz is an important piece of the team, but how important is the question. Is he more important than the O-line? Is he more important than the LBs?
Well, they won a Super Bowl by throwing the ball to Nicks and Cruz all day. The line wasn't too flash. I get what you're saying though.

brad
02-02-2013, 09:12 AM
Well, they won a Super Bowl by throwing the ball to Nicks and Cruz all day. The line wasn't too flash. I get what you're saying though.

Agreed... but when they won the SB they were paying Cruz 1/2 Mill a year, not 10 Mill a year, and they had a defense that was playing extremely well. Cruz and Nicks weren't the only reason they won the SB, they weren't even the only WRs that helped win that SB, MM had a big part in that. I would love to see them bring back Cruz, but not if that means they can't bring back their own FA OL they desperately need just to stay "as good" as they were last year, or that one of the worst defenses in the NFL gets even worse.

jomo
02-02-2013, 09:17 AM
Agreed... but when they won the SB they were paying Cruz 1/2 Mill a year, not 10 Mill a year, and they had a defense that was playing extremely well. Cruz and Nicks weren't the only reason they won the SB, they weren't even the only WRs that helped win that SB, MM had a big part in that. I would love to see them bring back Cruz, but not if that means they can't bring back their own FA OL they desperately need just to stay "as good" as they were last year, or that one of the worst defenses in the NFL gets even worse.This is all true. I want him back in a big way but you don't build a team around wide receivers. We need to shore up the trenches and that will take money, so JR has got some juggling to do.

nhpgiantsfan
02-02-2013, 09:25 AM
http://www.giants101.com/2013/02/02/new-york-giants-victor-cruz-may-consider-holdout-if-new-deal-isnt-reached/

Ok, so there isn't much in this article, but it looks like Cruz has stopped saying that he will never hold out. He has probably changed his tune a little in response to Mara's comments yesterday. It's all posturing.

jomo
02-02-2013, 09:37 AM
http://www.giants101.com/2013/02/02/new-york-giants-victor-cruz-may-consider-holdout-if-new-deal-isnt-reached/

Ok, so there isn't much in this article, but it looks like Cruz has stopped saying that he will never hold out. He has probably changed his tune a little in response to Mara's comments yesterday. It's all posturing.He can hold out but he'll be damaging "brand Cruz" which seems more important to him than getting this deal done. "Brand Cruz" has value because he is seen a a likeable personality. He needs to study recent Giants history to see how quickly that likability faded for #21.

Any news out there on what hat VC will be wearing out on the town tonight?

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 10:33 AM
Where were you Cruz in the games against the Bengals, Falcons and Ravens? You did nothin. The argument can be made that if the rest of the offense played better everybody's numbers would have been better

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 10:37 AM
The argument can be made that if the rest of the offense played better everybody's numbers would have been betterYou are right but Cruz is asking for a lot of money so should he at least have been a threat and got some positive yards and maybe a td in the games I mentioned?

NorwoodBlue
02-02-2013, 11:18 AM
It was just a matter of time until Victor's agent started running the show. Victor's only saying what he's being told to say. The bottom line is he's not worth $10 million. If another team offers him that he should take it; because they're fools. If the Giants offered him even close to that, they'd be sabotaging any chance they have of building a team for the near future. The entire league saw some pretty lackluster performances from Cruz this year; particularly when Nicks was on the field injured. In those games Cruz did next to nothing.

There will be those who say that Cruz got 1,000 yards again; but he got them like Osi gets sacks. He had a couple really big games against poor teams that padded is stats nicely. He also had some no shows when the team really needed him. I like Victor and think he compliments Nicks nicely; but he's not a top wide receiver without another top wide receiver on the field with him. The Giants need to put down a reasonable number, like maybe 6-7 million, and draw a line in the sand.

Victor is taking a huge chance by not signing this year when he's a RFA. If he comes back and holds out, or has a bad year, or gets outshined by Reuben Randle, his stock will drop badly.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 12:03 PM
You are right but Cruz is asking for a lot of money so should he at least have been a threat and got some positive yards and maybe a td in the games I mentioned?

And that's not all on Cruz. But if you don't think he's entitled to a decent salary because he didn't excel in a few games, that's fine.

ny06
02-02-2013, 12:09 PM
Think Cruz would take an IOU?

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 12:09 PM
And that's not all on Cruz. But if you don't think he's entitled to a decent salary because he didn't excel in a few games, that's fine.Hey, 5 mil a year is good for him. So you are saying Nicks isn't good? He had 1,000 yards when Cruz was not playin for the Giants. You have to account for the other talents. They help each other out. You should understand that since you are older than me. I was born in 68 and get my knowledge from watching games and from coaches who are older than me and know by experience..

Yes he should get a good salary that should be within limits.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 12:21 PM
Hey, 5 mil a year is good for him. So you are saying Nicks isn't good? He had 1,000 yards when Cruz was not playin for the Giants. You have to account for the other talents. They help each other out. You should understand that since you are older than me. I was born in 68 and get my knowledge from watching games and from coaches who are older than me and know by experience..

Yes he should get a good salary that should be within limits.

This has nothing to do with Nicks. There is no question Cruz and Nicks are each better when they are both on the field and healthy. Some feel Nicks is the better receiver and a growing number of folks seem to think Cruz is fast catching up with or even with Nicks in terms of performance. I don't think there's a huge difference between the two. Cruz, so far, has been more durable than Nicks.

I've negotiated a lot of labor agreements and one thing I can say for sure. The contract you end up with looks nothing like either sides first proposal. We would all do well to simply wait and see what happens. So far, things seem to be going along as could be expected.

And yes, I am older, so respect your elders :p

jomo
02-02-2013, 12:23 PM
I am trying to keep the emotion out of this (despite my chiding Victor for the infamous hat incident). It is true, as RF would say, that this is all just part of the negotiating dance. It is also true that last year he was just a very good NFL player and nowhere near as good as the year before. That could be said for most of our team.

So if he is asking for top 5 receiver money leaving open the possibility of a hold out but signs for #15 money before training camp, this will all be just a bunch of posturing and I can live with that thought.

Diamondring
02-02-2013, 12:27 PM
This has nothing to do with Nicks. There is no question Cruz and Nicks are each better when they are both on the field and healthy. Some feel Nicks is the better receiver and a growing number of folks seem to think Cruz is fast catching up with or even with Nicks in terms of performance. I don't think there's a huge difference between the two. Cruz, so far, has been more durable than Nicks.

I've negotiated a lot of labor agreements and one thing I can say for sure. The contract you end up with looks nothing like either sides first proposal. We would all do well to simply wait and see what happens. So far, things seem to be going along as could be expected.

And yes, I am older, so respect your elders :pYes sir, hahaaaa.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
I am trying to keep the emotion out of this (despite my chiding Victor for the infamous hat incident). It is true, as RF would say, that this is all just part of the negotiating dance. It is also true that last year he was just a very good NFL player and nowhere near as good as the year before. That could be said for most of our team.

So if he is asking for top 5 receiver money leaving open the possibility of a hold out but signs for #15 money before training camp, this will all be just a bunch of posturing and I can live with that thought.

Exactly right and he said he think he's "top 10" and I think that's close to where he actually is. At least he's not singing the Moss "I am the greatest" song. I also agree with you that holding out is a no no, on so many levels. I have always found that you give up a lot to get relatively little when you do that.

Ruttiger711
02-02-2013, 12:39 PM
It's his whole body of work, not one season or an other. And now they add his 10 catch record in the Pro Bowl to his resume. YES, we can all say "it was the Pro Bowl" but no other receiver has ever done it and he caught those passes from three different receivers. It all factors into his NFL worth.

Victor believes he's a top receiver and it's hard to argue with that. How "top" will be determined by the market. I think he's a top 10 - 15 receiver.

I'm right with you about the top 10-15. I just dont think from a negotiations standpoint the Giants will look at Cruz's output as a whole over 2 years and say his contract is worth "X"... because in that case, he probably IS in the top 10.

2011 he played in probably 14 meaningful regular season games, games 3-16 - he AVERAGED over 100 yds a game! He shined in the playoff game against the 9ers and, sorry, was average to above average at best in the others including the superbowl.

2012 Cruz had a monster September which accounted for more than a 1/3 of his total yardage for the year. He was well on pace to hit another 1500 yard season. After September Cruz AVERAGED 59 yards a game.

I'm no way saying Cruz doesnt deserve his payday, but theres no way a contract is going to be determined from a sum-total standpoint at least from the Giant's view especially since the bulk of it came in the 2011 season.

Imgrate
02-02-2013, 12:39 PM
Players really can't hold out anymore. They get fined 30k everyday.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 12:44 PM
Players really can't hold out anymore. They get fined 30k everyday.

They can still hold out, but there is the price. If Cruz were to hold out for 20 days, he'd pay more than his 2012 salary in fines

jomo
02-02-2013, 12:47 PM
Exactly right and he said he think he's "top 10" and I think that's close to where he actually is. At least he's not singing the Moss "I am the greatest" song. I also agree with you that holding out is a no no, on so many levels. I have always found that you give up a lot to get relatively little when you do that.The holdout would be particularly perilous considering he's so intent on building "brand Cruz". ............I have to work on this sarcasm problem of mine in the New Year. :)

Let's get this one put to bet and get to work on our O and D trenches.

Imgrate
02-02-2013, 12:48 PM
They can still hold out, but there is the priceThat's what I mean. Its not like a couple years ago when guys would hold out all of training camp, preseason etc. Its fiscally impossible. Nflpa gave up a lot this CBA in that regard. Hold outs are a non factor in negotiations.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 12:51 PM
The holdout would be particularly perilous considering he's so intent on building "brand Cruz". ............I have to work on this sarcasm problem of mine in the New Year. :)

Let's get this one put to bet and get to work on our O and D trenches.

+1

jomo
02-02-2013, 01:44 PM
+1lol are you referring to my "problem" or putting this to bed and working on the OL/DL?

NorwoodBlue
02-02-2013, 02:06 PM
Brand Cruz could easily become brand Snooze without Eli and Nicks. He's got to be aware that his "brand" value drops dramatically if he goes somewhere else and fizzles. I take his bravado in demanding big bucks from the Giants as a sign that his agent's phone isn't exactly ringing off the hook with top dollar offers from other teams. It sounds way to much like a bluff to me. The salary cap is real for everyone, not just the Giants.

Harooni
02-02-2013, 02:49 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/giants-wr-cruz-wants-big-004005284--nfl.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CYMbQ1RgxMAzvzQtDMD

Since the cap is tighter than a nun's privates , we are in trouble.

Cruz also not ruling out a hold out wants 10mil per.

(i think he earned a big contract playing for below 400k for 2 seasons. )

Gmen2005
02-02-2013, 02:51 PM
10 million is way too much. I don't see any team giving him that.

primetime
02-02-2013, 02:54 PM
Negotiating 101. The employee puts the offer that he believes is fair and what his value is. The employer then counters and put their offer for what they think the value of the player is. After a few weeks of back and forth both sides come to a middle ground.

Harooni
02-02-2013, 02:55 PM
In our case it isn't whats fair exactly its what we can afford which is barely anything over the cap and 22 FA's to re-sign or replace.

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 02:57 PM
They aren't 4 mil over the 2013 cap. They are 4 mil over the 2012 cap.

Buddy333
02-02-2013, 03:00 PM
Not going to get $10 million a year and he is not holding out this year. With what he makes if he held out this year he wold owe money.

FBomb
02-02-2013, 03:01 PM
We all knew this day was coming. Sigh.

Redeyejedi
02-02-2013, 03:01 PM
Welker earned 9.5 Million last year Cruz may get 10. I'd like to think 7 or 8 would get it done

slipknottin
02-02-2013, 03:03 PM
Cruz also not ruling out a hold out wants 10mil per.

The new CBA eliminated hold outs by RFAs.

If he holds out, this season does not count towards his total league years, and he would be an RFA again next season.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:09 PM
We all knew this day was coming. Sigh.

I don't think it's as dire as the media would have us believe.....yet

Ruttiger711
02-02-2013, 03:09 PM
The new CBA eliminated hold outs by RFAs.

If he holds out, this season does not count towards his total league years, and he would be an RFA again next season.

Oh thats right - totally forgot about that. Holding out meaning what though, pre-season - regular season?

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:13 PM
The new CBA eliminated hold outs by RFAs.

If he holds out, this season does not count towards his total league years, and he would be an RFA again next season.

We can check that off the list then lol

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:17 PM
why combine roa , its different topic, mara quotes also ???

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:19 PM
We can check that off the list then lol yes its a cruz topic but the new story will be buried in this thread and it has Mara quotes and all. :(

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:20 PM
Think Cruz would take an IOU?

Maybe from Harooni, but not otherwise

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:23 PM
Roa come on man, we both know that avg lurkers will miss my thread about what Mara had to say on the subject.

not like the MB is busy. we at least had something going now dead. great

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:25 PM
yes its a cruz topic but the new story will be buried in this thread and it has Mara quotes and all. :(

We have Mara's quotes pages back :)

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:26 PM
We have Mara's quotes pages back :) oh buried , point made

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:28 PM
http://venturebeat.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/thumbs-down.jpg

Lets combine every new article so people who dont come everyday will have to read 50 pages!!!

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:30 PM
I understand that its a similar topic but its offseason for us. and if its a different article with new info it should be in a seperate thread IMO.

same news posted sure combine.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:30 PM
why combine roa , its different topic, mara quotes also ???

I copied your post into the OP

Harooni
02-02-2013, 03:31 PM
I copied your post into the OP ok i'm done crying. lol

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:38 PM
ok i'm done crying. lol

See, that's how negotiations work

jomo
02-02-2013, 03:42 PM
See, that's how negotiations workYou drive a hard bargain RF.....

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 03:50 PM
You drive a hard bargain RF.....

Tough...but F A I R

FBomb
02-02-2013, 04:02 PM
yes its a cruz topic but the new story will be buried in this thread and it has Mara quotes and all. :(


Is that Artie and Eric?

Ruttiger711
02-02-2013, 04:21 PM
ok i'm done crying. lol

Big Eric the Actor fan?

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 05:01 PM
lol are you referring to my "problem" or putting this to bed and working on the OL/DL? Putting this to bed. We all have problems and the confessional is closed at the moment.

RoanokeFan
02-02-2013, 05:05 PM
Brand Cruz could easily become brand Snooze without Eli and Nicks. He's got to be aware that his "brand" value drops dramatically if he goes somewhere else and fizzles. I take his bravado in demanding big bucks from the Giants as a sign that his agent's phone isn't exactly ringing off the hook with top dollar offers from other teams. It sounds way to much like a bluff to me. The salary cap is real for everyone, not just the Giants. His agent's phone can't start ringing until March 12th. There are several teams with significant CAP space

TheEnigma
02-03-2013, 11:32 AM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8910210/hakeem-nicks-deal-new-york-giants-biggest-priority-sources

Interesting. This is feeling more and more like the Steelers situation last offseason.

BklynBlue
02-03-2013, 11:37 AM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8910210/hakeem-nicks-deal-new-york-giants-biggest-priority-sources

Interesting. This is feeling more and more like the Steelers situation last offseason.

Yes, indeed it is. Although, if they cannot reac an agreement with Cruz I can see him being tendered. I do not see the Giants slapping Cruz with the franchize tag.

jomo
02-03-2013, 11:40 AM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8910210/hakeem-nicks-deal-new-york-giants-biggest-priority-sources

Interesting. This is feeling more and more like the Steelers situation last offseason.Inteesting and appropriate that Nicks is our first priority at WR.

YATittle1962
02-03-2013, 11:43 AM
Inteesting and appropriate that Nicks is our first priority at WR.

agreed

brad
02-03-2013, 11:44 AM
Considering that Nicks contract next year would likely use the Cruz contract as a starting point, this makes sense. Lock up Nicks now, maybe use the new contract to clear up some space and use that to try to sign Cruz. In the end, if you have to choose one or the other, I think Nicks is the right choice, as much as I would like to see them retain both.

giantsfan420
02-03-2013, 11:49 AM
wow, heres a curveball situation i kinda just thought of; could it be possible and make more sense fiscally to actually get nicks deal done now, and then cruz's next season/offseason???

slipknottin
02-03-2013, 11:50 AM
As I have been saying, Nicks is more valuable to this offense than the slot guy is.

Slot guys are almost plug and play in this system and you can get a 900+ yard guy.

The outside receiver that forces double teams and STILL gets open? Incredibly hard to find.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 11:54 AM
Inteesting and appropriate that Nicks is our first priority at WR.

This will likely mean Cruz will be sent on his way in 2014 so we need to bring some folks along

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 11:55 AM
When he is healthy he puts up top 10, maybe even top 5 numbers. That's the problem though, he is injured a lot. However, if he can stay healthy and Randle also becomes the same type of WR they have JJ that will benefit greatly. Not saying it will be easy to replace Cruz, but you can see the strategy here.

TheEnigma
02-03-2013, 11:56 AM
wow, heres a curveball situation i kinda just thought of; could it be possible and make more sense fiscally to actually get nicks deal done now, and then cruz's next season/offseason???

Coming off a season like he did, Nicks should come cheaper in theory but it's also very possible that the Giants FO feels it can make more progress with Nicks' agent at the current moment than they can with Cruz. There is a legitimate case to be made that Nicks is the better of the two in the Giants mind because of what he did in the SB run and that an offseason of rest will see him return as the beast he was then. We all remember what he did in TB and if not for the injuries, who knows how big of a season he could have had for us.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 12:01 PM
wow, heres a curveball situation i kinda just thought of; could it be possible and make more sense fiscally to actually get nicks deal done now, and then cruz's next season/offseason???

That depends on Cruz. He will get tendered which is really a slap in the face, financially speaking. He can only make $2.879M in 2013 and, even if you hate Cruz, that's not commensurate with his skills. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. This is a shot across the bow for Cruz. It will be interesting to see how they respond. I just don't see him playing here in 2014.

He will lose a minimum of $5M due to the tender. There isn't going to be a lot more money available next season to make the CAP more friendly.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 12:06 PM
I am glad to see that our FO is locking up the necessary pieces to keep this train moving, as others have said we want Cruz around but I think locking up Nicks should have priority over locking up Cruz.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 12:10 PM
I am glad to see that our FO is locking up the necessary pieces to keep this train moving, as others have said we want Cruz around but I think locking up Nicks should have priority over locking up Cruz.

Cruz will find a home someplace when he's an UFA

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 12:13 PM
I wonder if they are considering trading Cruz??

TheEnigma
02-03-2013, 12:15 PM
I wonder if they are considering trading Cruz??

I doubt it. We'll probably milk out Cruz for his value and if he doesn't want to give us a more fair contract in the eyes of the FO, he'll be allowed to look for a new team. If Cruz puts out another 1k season, that will have been some damn good value the last 3 years.

Robz
02-03-2013, 12:16 PM
i've always said to my friend that Nicks is more important to this offense then cruz, just look how inconsistent our offense was without him.

problem is Nicks gotta stay healthy,

Carter.525
02-03-2013, 12:38 PM
Eh boy.. Worry about Nicks next year, need to lock up Cruz

Ruttiger711
02-03-2013, 12:39 PM
That depends on Cruz. He will get tendered which is really a slap in the face, financially speaking. He can only make $2.879M in 2013 and, even if you hate Cruz, that's not commensurate with his skills. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. This is a shot across the bow for Cruz. It will be interesting to see how they respond. I just don't see him playing here in 2014.

He will lose a minimum of $5M due to the tender. There isn't going to be a lot more money available next season to make the CAP more friendly.

I strongly use the word IF

IF Cruz's camp is asking in the 10m range then the slap in the face is all on them. Cruz gets tendered and then who knows maybe he has another season just cracking the 1,000 yard mark. He still wont be getting top 5 money and the Giants offer at that point (even during the season) may actually be the one he takes.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 12:43 PM
I strongly use the word IF

IF Cruz's camp is asking in the 10m range then the slap in the face is all on them. Cruz gets tendered and then who knows maybe he has another season just cracking the 1,000 yard mark. He still wont be getting top 5 money and the Giants offer at that point (even during the season) may actually be the one he takes.

Anything is possible. I will say leaking this tidbit was negotiating genius. If anyone ever thought Reese doesn't know what he's doing, this should dispel those thoughts. He's going to use Nicks' subpar season to the team's advantage and use the negotiations with Nicks to the team's advantage in the Cruz contract talks.

If Cruz in tendered, he should use 2013 as an audition for his UFA debut

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 12:46 PM
Eh boy.. Worry about Nicks next year, need to lock up CruzHow? Cruz wants too much cash.

Carter.525
02-03-2013, 12:48 PM
How? Cruz wants too much cash.

Yea Cruz wants too much, the Giants wants to pay less.. They will meet in the middle

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 12:48 PM
How? Cruz wants too much cash.

That's just negotiating posturing. What is asked for is not necessarily what is wanted.

nhpgiantsfan
02-03-2013, 01:03 PM
They probably realize that Cruz is gonna get a huge deal, and that if Nicks comes back healthy and has a great year that they won't afford both. So if they can get a break on Nicks now because his value is down due to the injury, then pay Cruz next year, while Nicks is already locked up.

jomo
02-03-2013, 01:04 PM
They probably realize that Cruz is gonna get a huge deal, and that if Nicks comes back healthy and has a great year that they won't afford both. So if they can get a break on Nicks now because his value is down due to the injury, then pay Cruz next year, while Nicks is already locked up.No, I think they realize that Nicks is the better receiver.

BigBlue1971
02-03-2013, 01:04 PM
I wonder if they are considering trading Cruz??

with this new information on Nicks you never know what teams are thinking!

yea i think trading Cruz is a real 50/50 possibility especially since Mr. Maras comments!

jomo
02-03-2013, 01:07 PM
This will likely mean Cruz will be sent on his way in 2014 so we need to bring some folks alongI didn't think of it that way but if the cap can only absorb one big WR salary, then Nick is the priority assuming both of them are healthy. Locking down Nicks and tendering Cruz gets us through one year to Cruz's departure. That would be disappointing but may be an economic reality. I'd pay money to know how JR and Co. actually break these things down.

Jppallday
02-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Anything is possible. I will say leaking this tidbit was negotiating genius. If anyone ever thought Reese doesn't know what he's doing, this should dispel those thoughts. He's going to use Nicks' subpar season to the team's advantage and use the negotiations with Nicks to the team's advantage in the Cruz contract talks.

If Cruz in tendered, he should use 2013 as an audition for his UFA debut

I need a little bit of help understanding the rules. If we tender cruz this year and he plays and then walks the next year do we get a first round pick for him? What's the situation where we receive a first rounder for cruz if he walks?

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:11 PM
I didn't think of it that way but if the cap can only absorb one big WR salary, then Nick is the priority assuming both of them are healthy. Locking down Nicks and tendering Cruz gets us through one year to Cruz's departure. That would be disappointing but may be an economic reality. I'd pay money to know how JR and Co. actually break these things down.

I'm just not totally convinced Nicks is the better receiver but I do believe that together they can be the best tandem in the NFL.

ny06
02-03-2013, 01:12 PM
I'm just not totally convinced Nicks is the better receiver but I do believe that together they can be the best tandem in the NFL.
You don't need to be convinced, we're telling you Nicks is the better receiver. Would we lie to you? ;)

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:13 PM
I need a little bit of help understanding the rules. If we tender cruz this year and he plays and then walks the next year do we get a first round pick for him? What's the situation where we receive a first rounder for cruz if he walks?

No, when Cruz is a UFA he can go anywhere he wants for whatever he's offered and the Giants get nothing in return. If they tender him in 2013 as a RFA, then they get a 1st round draft pick if that's the tender the Giants put on him. But that would require a team to make an offer and be willing to give up a 1st round pick. The Giants could match the offer if they wanted or just let him go and take the extra pick.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:14 PM
You don't need to be convinced, we're telling you Nicks is the better receiver. Would we lie to you? ;)


I'm just going to let you believe Nicks is best while I continue to mull it over. :cool:

jomo
02-03-2013, 01:15 PM
I'm just not totally convinced Nicks is the better receiver but I do believe that together they can be the best tandem in the NFL.It is not as clear cut as I may make it appear. You've seen enough of me to realize that hyperbole is one of my relatives. lol That said, I think that Nicks has the better hands and can handle the split reveiver role better than Cuz. Cruz drops too many balls but has an explosive quality about him. Nicks has been injured alot and still productive but is he injury prone? Nicks has been a top receiver for longer than Cruz and Cruz's production or at least those explosive plays dropped way off this year. Is he getting a little gun shy going over the middle. I guess that's a long way to say that when healthy, they are one of the top 3 tandems in the league and it would be a shame if the salary cap breaks them up.

Jppallday
02-03-2013, 01:15 PM
No, when Cruz is a UFA he can go anywhere he wants for whatever he's offered and the Giants get nothing in return. If they tender him in 2013 as a RFA, then they get a 1st round draft pick if that's the tender the Giants put on him. But that would require a team to make an offer and be willing to give up a 1st round pick. The Giants could match the offer if they wanted or just let him go and take the extra pick.

If he was going to leave is rather let him go now and get a 1st rounder for him. Or at least try and do that if a team will part ways with a first rd pick

TheEnigma
02-03-2013, 01:21 PM
There might be more to this than just Nicks and Cruz. There could be a possible future laid out for the direction this offense will go and they could feel that two huge threats on the outside (Nicks and Randle) would stretch out the field for any slot receiver like a Jernigan or a TE to take advantage of the middle. More emphasis on the top of the defense and outside the numbers should also open up the running game for the emerging Wilson too. Cruz is a great player that any team would love to have but we can't afford to put too much money into a handful of players.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:22 PM
It is not as clear cut as I may make it appear. You've seen enough of me to realize that hyperbole is one of my relatives. lol That said, I think that Nicks has the better hands and can handle the split reveiver role better than Cuz. Cruz drops too many balls but has an explosive quality about him. Nicks has been injured alot and still productive but is he injury prone? Nicks has been a top receiver for longer than Cruz and Cruz's production or at least those explosive polays dropped way off this year. Is he getting a little gun shy going over the middle. I guess that's a long way to say that when healthy, they are one of the top 3 tandems in the league and it would be a shame if the salary cap breaks them up.

I'm not convinced either way to be precise. Nicks hasn't played a full season yet. He is a GREAT talent and his injuries in 2012 don't give us a real indication of his current value, although Reese will use that for leverage. Nicks doesn't have Cruz's versatility in being able to play on the outside or out of the slot. But, at least for 2013, we'll get to see them play together when they are both healthy. Beyond that, it's not looking very promising, but anything can happen.

This really is masterful negotiating on Reese's part.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:25 PM
If he was going to leave is rather let him go now and get a 1st rounder for him. Or at least try and do that if a team will part ways with a first rd pick

The only way he leaves in 2013 is for the Giants to get a 1st round pick.

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 01:32 PM
Dominant Split-Ends > Dominant slot guys

Always has been

elitocruz
02-03-2013, 01:34 PM
And i think it will come from belichick. 26-yr-old stud way more valuable, than the 28th or 29th pick. And if giants dont match, it will be teams single greatest blunder, EVER. forget dave brown, or jarrod bunch or any other. Giants teetering with destroying the best aspect of their team. And if someone says "next man up" ill puke.

Rudyy
02-03-2013, 01:35 PM
I love my Cruz to death but um..

Nicks > Cruz

Overdrive92
02-03-2013, 01:36 PM
I'm just not totally convinced Nicks is the better receiver but I do believe that together they can be the best tandem in the NFL.

Nicks is the better receiver, I'm just concerned because he always gets banged up. The guy misses at least 2-4 games every year. Without Cruz, you can almost certainly chalk those games up as L's.

In the end, I just hope Reese does the right thing and gets them both locked up. The last thing I want to see is Cruz doing the salsa in another uniform.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:39 PM
And i think it will come from belichick. 26-yr-old stud way more valuable, than the 28th or 29th pick. And if giants dont match, it will be teams single greatest blunder, EVER. forget dave brown, or jarrod bunch or any other. Giants teetering with destroying the best aspect of their team. And if someone says "next man up" ill puke.

There are several teams who have a boat load of CAP space, the Patriots are one of them at just under $20M. But why not just re-sign Welker?

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:41 PM
Dominant Split-Ends > Dominant slot guys

Always has been

I'm not a big believer in "always" and "never" :)

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 01:42 PM
There are several teams who have a boat load of CAP space, the Patriots are one of them at just under $20M. But why not just re-sign Welker?He's getting older, untimely drops, and he's not a Belichick favorite.

I still don't think we'd get any offers. Draft picks + lucrative contracts aren't so appealing.

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 01:43 PM
I'm not a big believer in "always" and "never" :)Provided all things equal....


of which they never are. Whatever Ro.... ;)

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:44 PM
He's getting older, untimely drops, and he's not a Belichick favorite.

I still don't think we'd get any offers. Draft picks + lucrative contracts aren't so appealing.

I agree, Cruz should be here for 2013 and then he rides off into the sunset if it's via tender

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 01:46 PM
I agree, Cruz should be here for 2013 and then he rides off into the sunset if it's via tenderI think we'll tender him, but still work on a longterm deal.


Plus, seeing as how the trend is with Giants ready to cash in, Cruz will probably tear an ACL or have a terrible knee injury. Weird stuff.

Rudyy
02-03-2013, 01:46 PM
I think we'll tender him, but still work on a longterm deal.


Plus, seeing as how the trend is with Giants ready to cash in, Cruz will probably tear an ACL or have a terrible knee injury. Weird stuff. pls stahp

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 01:49 PM
pls stahpT2, Steve Smith, Kiwi come to mind.

Rudyy
02-03-2013, 01:50 PM
T2, Steve Smith, Kiwi come to mind.yer tearing me apart Lisa.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 01:55 PM
I think we'll tender him, but still work on a longterm deal.


Plus, seeing as how the trend is with Giants ready to cash in, Cruz will probably tear an ACL or have a terrible knee injury. Weird stuff.

Let's not be asking for trouble lol

I agree they will work on a deal through 2013, but if Cruz has a lights out season, the leverage changes. Cruz accepts the tender, whcih he has to, and he should then just wait for UFA. The tender will make him underpaid for three season in a row.

Bones911
02-03-2013, 02:02 PM
I think it just the Giants trying to lock up Nicks at a bargain price. He's coming off an injury prone year his value is a lot lower then lets say he has a pro bowl year next year where you may have to break the bank. This way you can get him locked up for 4 to 5 years at 1/4 of the price. Rather then Cruz who is coming off a pristine year who would be valued higher and require more money upfront. Also if a team wants to tender Cruz we would get a first rounder out of it. Its just the Giants being business like.

jomo
02-03-2013, 02:04 PM
I think it just the Giants trying to lock up Nicks at a bargain price. He's coming off an injury prone year his value is a lot lower then lets say he has a pro bowl year next year where you may have to break the bank. This way you can get him locked up for 4 to 5 years at 1/4 of the price. Rather then Cruz who is coming off a pristine year who would be valued higher and require more money upfront. Also if a team wants to tender Cruz we would get a first rounder out of it. Its just the Giants being business like."Business like", I like that.

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 02:05 PM
Let's not be asking for trouble lol

I agree they will work on a deal through 2013, but if Cruz has a lights out season, the leverage changes. Cruz accepts the tender, whcih he has to, and he should then just wait for UFA. The the tender will make him underpaid for three season in a row.True. If Cruz puts up another 1300 yard season, multiple touchdowns, and the Giants have a lot of success because of it, we should give him 10-12 million per year.That's market value for a dominant receiver.

If Nicks tears it up too, then we've got a tough decision to make.

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 02:06 PM
I think it just the Giants trying to lock up Nicks at a bargain price. He's coming off an injury prone year his value is a lot lower then lets say he has a pro bowl year next year where you may have to break the bank. This way you can get him locked up for 4 to 5 years at 1/4 of the price. Rather then Cruz who is coming off a pristine year who would be valued higher and require more money upfront. Also if a team wants to tender Cruz we would get a first rounder out of it. Its just the Giants being business like.We should lock Nicks up, and the sooner the better. Preferably a contract that wouldn't cripple us in the event that we have to cut him.

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 02:07 PM
True. If Cruz puts up another 1300 yard season, multiple touchdowns, and the Giants have a lot of success because of it, we should give him 10-12 million per year.That's market value for a dominant receiver.

If Nicks tears it up too, then we've got a tough decision to make.We have to look at what MM's play along with Nicks. .

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 02:08 PM
We have to look at what MM's play along with Nicks. .http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5mM838h3wS8/Ry-xfehN7BI/AAAAAAAAAU8/BoxreDIsN-g/s320/Charlie's+Night+Man+lyrics+zoom.jpg

Eli TO Shockey
02-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Glad to hear this. Nicks is a beast and only 25. lock him up. 5 yrs 30 mil?

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-03-2013, 02:14 PM
not sure I agree,,,no doubt when nicks is healthy he is unstoppable,,the problem is he has demonstrated that he is not able to stay healthy year after year and it killed the O this year. at what point do his injuries become a major problem? no doubt I want him back,,but priority over cruz? not sure about that.

gmen0820
02-03-2013, 02:16 PM
and it killed the O this year.Agreed, Nicks absence killed the offense this year.

Now why should we pay a guy 12 million dollars (as an example figure) who can't rejuvenate the offense when Nicks isn't in the line-up?

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-03-2013, 02:22 PM
Agreed, Nicks absence killed the offense this year.

Now why should we pay a guy 12 million dollars (as an example figure) who can't rejuvenate the offense when Nicks isn't in the line-up?

kinda hard to rejuvenate when he was constantly doubled due to the lack of nicks and another quality receiver. what will nicks do with out cruz? probably the same results cruz had this year. so we are damned if we do damned if we dont.

Carter.525
02-03-2013, 02:26 PM
between Cruz & Nicks.. I'll take Cruz, Nicks cant stay on the field and always seem to be banged up..

ELI_HOF_NYG
02-03-2013, 02:40 PM
between Cruz & Nicks.. I'll take Cruz, Nicks cant stay on the field and always seem to be banged up..

carter I agree but this stinks, I dont want to lose either,,,,its like the line from the married with children theme song,,,you can't have one with out the other..I wonder what Cruz must be thinking,,slap in the face or does he maintain his mellow style?

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 02:59 PM
Yeah the injury thing with Nicks is a bit of an issue. He has yet to play a complete season since being drafted. When he is on the field he has the ability to change the game more so than Cruz. That's the problem though. It's almost a guarantee he will miss some time. When will that be? What if its at the end of the season or the playoffs? It's a tough call, but maybe they feel that JJ can be their next Cruz? They seem to be pretty happy they drafted Randle too.

giantsfan420
02-03-2013, 03:00 PM
I think we'll tender him, but still work on a longterm deal.


Plus, seeing as how the trend is with Giants ready to cash in, Cruz will probably tear an ACL or have a terrible knee injury. Weird stuff.isnt there a cutoff date to when both sides cannot discuss long term contracts? fromwhat i understood with the wallace situation, a specifc date signaled a mandatory cease negotiations and iirc it last until the next offseason...so...theoretically the giants could screw cruz out of his next 3-4 yrs

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:05 PM
True. If Cruz puts up another 1300 yard season, multiple touchdowns, and the Giants have a lot of success because of it, we should give him 10-12 million per year.That's market value for a dominant receiver.

If Nicks tears it up too, then we've got a tough decision to make.

If Cruz does that, the Giants won't be able to afford him in 2014 but other teams will be lining up. If they are really making Nicks a priority this season, and he signs an extension, he's out of the financial equation for 2014. That also has the practical effect of showing Cruz the door.

It's a complicated process in the best of times, but the shelf life of NFL players is relatively short. If Cruz is tendered, he's losing at least $5M this season alone. He played for $540K in 2012 and he's now worth more than the proposed tender offer even if you hate him (not saying you hate him).

So if Nicks signs now, he'll be getting what? $7M a season, give or take? We are still going to be in CAP hell in 2014 so where does Cruz go for a lucrative contract, assuming he has a good season?

Flip Empty
02-03-2013, 03:07 PM
As they should. Nicks was drafted to be the franchise receiver; Cruz has been a luxury. It would be nice to keep both, though. Obviously.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:09 PM
isnt there a cutoff date to when both sides cannot discuss long term contracts? fromwhat i understood with the wallace situation, a specifc date signaled a mandatory cease negotiations and iirc it last until the next offseason...so...theoretically the giants could screw cruz out of his next 3-4 yrs

How can they screw him out of his next 3-4 years?

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:20 PM
between Cruz & Nicks.. I'll take Cruz, Nicks cant stay on the field and always seem to be banged up..

He was banged up for one season, and now hes injury prone........wow.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:21 PM
He was banged up for one season, and now hes injury prone........wow.

He's never played a full season, but "injury prone" is still a stretch

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:21 PM
He was banged up for one season, and now hes injury prone........wow.This was the worst he has ever been banged up but he has missed games in every season he has played in.

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:22 PM
He's never played a full season, but "injury prone" is still a stretchNot really. It's a fact he has not played a complete season yet. That is injury prone.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:23 PM
This was the worst he has ever been banged p but he has missed games in every season he has played in.

Yeah, outside of this past season he has played an average of what, 14 games a season? Not exactly injury prone.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:24 PM
He's never played a full season, but "injury prone" is still a stretch

Right, but hes missed what an average of 2 games per season outside of 2012? People are treating him as if he's Kenny Phillips here.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:24 PM
Not really. It's a fact he has not played a complete season yet. That is injury prone.

Not to me, he missed 9 games in four seasons

Here are his career stats:



Year
Team
G
Rec
Yds
Avg
Yds/G
Lng
TD
20+
40+
1st
FUM


2012
New York Giants (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkgiants/profile?team=NYG)
13
53
692
13.1
53.2
50
3
12
2
35
0





2011
New York Giants (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkgiants/profile?team=NYG)
15
76
1,192
15.7
79.5
68
7
17
5
54
0





2010
New York Giants (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkgiants/profile?team=NYG)
13
79
1,052
13.3
80.9
46T
11
20
1
55
1





2009
New York Giants (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkgiants/profile?team=NYG)
14
47
790
16.8
56.4
68T
6
13
5
32
2





TOTAL
55
255
3,726
14.6
67.7
68
27
62
13
176
3

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Not really. It's a fact he has not played a complete season yet. That is injury prone.

There are plenty of players in the NFL that do not play in every game every season, football tends to put a lot of stress on the body. If you think that constitutes being injury prone, then I don't know what to say to you, then again you typically like to argue everything so I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:28 PM
Not to me, he missed one game in two of those seasons I believeBefore tis year he did heal quickly from injuries, but he did miss time in every season so far and was injured before the combine too. Just saying.

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:28 PM
There are plenty of players in the NFL that do not play in every game every season, football tends to put a lot of stress on the body. If you think that constitutes being injury prone, then I don't know what to say to you, then again you typically like to argue everything so I can't tell if you're being serious or not.There are also guys hat don't miss at least one game every year and they re not injury prone.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:30 PM
There are also guys hat don't miss at least one game every year and they re not injury prone.

So you're going to put Nicks, TT and KP in the same boat, because that is what you're implying when you say injury prone.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Before tis year he did heal quickly from injuries, but he did miss time in every season so far and was injured before the combine too. Just saying.

If I wanted to identify injury prone, I'd say Bradshaw

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:34 PM
If I wanted to identify injury prone, I'd say BradshawUnderstand I think he is a game changing WR when healthy, but he is 4 for 4 as far as missing games during the regular season. That's injury prone. Now how serious they are and how soon he gets back is another thing.

Diamondring
02-03-2013, 03:36 PM
If I wanted to identify injury prone, I'd say BradshawNow I agree with you there.

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:37 PM
So you're going to put Nicks, TT and KP in the same boat, because that is what you're implying when you say injury prone.TT has played a full season twice.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:40 PM
Understand I think he is a game changing WR when healthy, but he is 4 for 4 as far as missing games during the regular season. That's injury prone. Now how serious they are and how soon he gets back is another thing.

Here's the problem. Aside from 2012, was he held out because he "couldn't " play or as a precaution? Obviously players missing games is a negative, but we're going to disagree on injury prone.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:42 PM
Now I agree with you there.

To me, it's less about games missed than productivity. It clearly has an effect on Bradshaw's effectiveness consistently. I just don't think that's the case with Nicks up until now. Another season like 2012 and then maybe.

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Here's the problem. Aside from 2012, was he held out because he "couldn't " play or as a precaution? Obviously players missing games is a negative, but we're going to disagree on injury prone.His rookie year he banged his toe up bad where he COULDN'T play. Believe the next season he had that injury to his calf where he COULDN'T play. Then last year it was a hamstring. Don't know I that was precautionary but I think hat game was against the Patriots.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 03:44 PM
His rookie year he banged his toe up bad where he COULDN'T play. Believe the next season he had that injury to his calf where he COULDN'T play. Then last year it was a hamstring. Don't know I that was precautionary but I think hat game was against the Patriots.

Again, if he has a repeat of 2012 in 2013, I'd be inclined to say injury prone. It clearly affected his consistency for the season.

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:49 PM
TT has played a full season twice.

So playing two full seasons back in '09 and '10 says hes not injury prone even though he has missed the last two seasons? Makes sense.

I Bleed Blue
02-03-2013, 03:49 PM
I'm just going to let you believe Nicks is best while I continue to mull it over. :cool:

I agree with this. I just can't see making the guy who struggles to stay healthy a priority unless it's on the cheap. Cruz is actually more than a slot receiver. Just go back and look at the NFC Championship Game against the Niners. Cruz was on the outside a lot in that game and destroyed their defense. If Cruz walks, this will be maybe the biggest blunder by the front office.

They have to find the way to make the numbers works. Trim the dead weight fat of Webster, Canty, Boley, and Diehl and get Cruz locked down. In my opinion, he's the best WR on the team. Some say the offense struggled because of Nicks not being healthy, but I think the loss of Rio is what hurt the offense the most. In every game that Nicks couldn't play, and Rio stepped in, this team won every game. Let that sink in for a moment.

Redeyejedi
02-03-2013, 03:51 PM
agreedNicks 2009 , Cruz 2010 he should get paid first

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 03:55 PM
So playing two full seasons back in '09 and '10 says hes not injury prone even though he has missed the last two seasons? Makes sense.His knee is shot, but before that, he had played complete seasons. Nicks has yet to do so. He has played 4 seasons in the pros and missed games in all 4 seasons. Not injury prone?

UK-Giantsfan
02-03-2013, 03:55 PM
As I have been saying, Nicks is more valuable to this offense than the slot guy is.

Slot guys are almost plug and play in this system and you can get a 900+ yard guy.

The outside receiver that forces double teams and STILL gets open? Incredibly hard to find.

Absolutely true .......well said sir

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 03:59 PM
His knee is shot, but before that, he had played complete seasons. Nicks has yet to do so. He has played 4 seasons in the pros and missed games in all 4 seasons. Not injury prone?

No again not injury prone when its only a game or two a season, and as far as TT is concerned he did not play a full year his first season, had two full years and then missed two more. I guess in your eyes that is a more complete career than a guy who missed 9 games in 4 years.

RoanokeFan
02-03-2013, 04:01 PM
No again not injury prone when its only a game or two a season

I don't think he's talking about Nicks' knee

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 04:04 PM
I don't think he's talking about Nicks' knee

I know, his argument is moot either way considering TT had missed games before he hurt his knee

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 04:07 PM
I know, his argument is moot either way considering TT had missed games before he hurt his kneeSo forget about any other player. Nicks has missed games in all 4 seasons he has been in the pros. How does tis make him not injury prone?

Buddy333
02-03-2013, 04:08 PM
I know, his argument is moot either way considering TT had missed games before he hurt his kneeWhen?

ShakeandBake
02-03-2013, 04:09 PM
When?

only played 14 games in '08