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RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 11:29 AM
http://www.giants101.com/2013/01/31/new-york-giants-victor-cruz-says-theres-been-no-movement-in-contract-talks/

Excerpt: "One of the New York Giants (http://www.giants101.com/tag/new-york-giants/)' top priorities this offseason is to come to a contractual agreement with wide receiver Victor Cruz (http://www.giants101.com/tag/victor-cruz/), who is slated to become a Restricted Free Agent (RFA) in March. And although the two sides have periodically attempted to work on finalizing a new deal, they are no closer now than they were during the season when negotiations were initially tabled.

While appearing on SiriusXM NFL (http://www.giants101.com/tag/nfl/)Radio on Thursday morning, Cruz revealed that there has been no progress, and that he and his agent are patiently waiting for the Giants to return with a counter-offer.

"We're just waiting for them to come back to us," Cruz said. “I’m not getting antsy at all … I know they have to come around at some point.” Read more...


Cruz wants big raise - Mara says no $$$$$ any time soon
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/giants-...1RgxMAzvzQtDMD (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/giants-wr-cruz-wants-big-004005284--nfl.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CYMbQ1RgxMAzvzQtDMD)

Since the cap is tighter than a nun's privates , we are in trouble.

Cruz also not ruling out a hold out wants 10mil per.

(i think he earned a big contract playing for below 400k for 2 seasons. )

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 11:33 AM
So Cruz puts a massive contract on the table. Then walks away and says they will agree to it eventually when they get desperate enough?

Yea. He is getting tendered this year and walking away next year.

Reese puts a value on guys and doesn't over pay them. Sorry Cruz.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 11:38 AM
So Cruz puts a massive contract on the table. Then walks away and says they will agree to it eventually when they get desperate enough?

Yea. He is getting tendered this year and walking away next year.

Reese puts a value on guys and doesn't over pay them. Sorry Cruz.

Massive contract? Where do you read that?

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 11:39 AM
So Cruz puts a massive contract on the table. Then walks away and says they will agree to it eventually when they get desperate enough?

Yea. He is getting tendered this year and walking away next year.

Reese puts a value on guys and doesn't over pay them. Sorry Cruz.

You know this how..........

Toadofsteel
01-31-2013, 11:40 AM
Just don't lose Beatty... that's all I ask for.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 11:46 AM
I admittedly don't know a lot about the inner workings of professional football. I do know about contract negotiations. This is how it usually works. One side presents a proposal, the other side laughs out loud and says we can't give you the moon. The original proposer says well then we want the sun and the stars, and the other side say we'll consider the sun and half of the stars....... Each side knows going in the line they will not cross. When that point is reached by either side, sabres rattle.

It's a process, it takes time, they have time.

TheAnalyst
01-31-2013, 11:47 AM
Giants better get to damn work. Cruz is the real deal. I said that last year and everyone was all like "It was just one year though." Well, now its 2 years in a row. He is our best WR because Nicks CAN NOT STAY HEALTHY! Id rather use Randle to replace Nicks. Cruz's are hard to find. Dude is humble, and well spoken, and a hell of a WR. This would be like losing Steve Smith all over again. There goes Eli's security blanket.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 11:48 AM
Just don't lose Beatty... that's all I ask for.

You're easy :rolleyes:

Toadofsteel
01-31-2013, 11:55 AM
You're easy :rolleyes:

You think that's easy... I want to draft Lane Johnson... Also if it weren't a cap hell situation I would cut Baas and draft a C in round 2.

Call me old school but for me it all starts with the lines. Give Eli time to throw and he will make anyone look like an all-pro. Look at what he did in the pro bowl with just that extra second to throw. Look at what he can do with BARDEN THE TERRIBLE in carolina.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 11:59 AM
You think that's easy... I want to draft Lane Johnson... Also if it weren't a cap hell situation I would cut Baas and draft a C in round 2...

I know Baas is not well loved, but I don't think he's as big a problem as we think. I am with you +10 on a RT at #1 or 2 and even a RG later in the draft. I see the OLine as a unit more than any other group of players on the team. When you have a weak ling (Diehl) it adversely affects the rest of the line on that side of the ball. So Lane Johnson would be a great pick up for us.

Toadofsteel
01-31-2013, 12:02 PM
I know Baas is not well loved, but I don't think he's as big a problem as we think. I am with you +10 on a RT at #1 or 2 and even a RG later in the draft. I see the OLine as a unit more than any other group of players on the team. When you have a weak ling (Diehl) it adversely affects the rest of the line on that side of the ball. So Lane Johnson would be a great pick up for us.

To be honest, while LT is a very important position in its own right, from what I've heard nowadays, the most important position on the line is actually the C. Not for physical athletic ability (that is still the tackles that need the most beef), but for intelligence. A good Center can coordinate well with his QB to call out protection schemes and identify blitzers, tweak blocking schemes on runs based on what the defense presents, etc.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:06 PM
You know this how..........

Because if he put a reasonable contract on the table the giants would have kept talking. They wouldn't have agreed to disagree unless they are very far apart numbers wise.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:06 PM
To be honest, while LT is a very important position in its own right, from what I've heard nowadays, the most important position on the line is actually the C. Not for physical athletic ability (that is still the tackles that need the most beef), but for intelligence. A good Center can coordinate well with his QB to call out protection schemes and identify blitzers, tweak blocking schemes on runs based on what the defense presents, etc.

I think that's true and I also think Baas has been improving in making calls before the snap. Unless he's pointing at the direction he wants Eli to throw? :)

ibbill
01-31-2013, 12:07 PM
You think that's easy... I want to draft Lane Johnson... Also if it weren't a cap hell situation I would cut Baas and draft a C in round 2.

Call me old school but for me it all starts with the lines. Give Eli time to throw and he will make anyone look like an all-pro. Look at what he did in the pro bowl with just that extra second to throw. Look at what he can do with BARDEN THE TERRIBLE in carolina.

+1 X 25

DownWitJPP
01-31-2013, 12:08 PM
I agree with Slip...it's obvious he's asking for a big contract otherwise the two sides would still be talking. They have to be far off for talks to completely stop

DownWitJPP
01-31-2013, 12:11 PM
Watch Reese surprise everyone and go grab another WR in the first now...

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:13 PM
Because if he put a reasonable contract on the table the giants would have kept talking. They wouldn't have agreed to disagree unless they are very far apart numbers wise.

I have to disagree. Reese has 20 + free agents to deal with. He's signed a total of one, Pascoe. That is because they offered him the vet minimum and he agreed, no brainer. There are a few ERFAs who will get three year vet minimum take it or leave it offers so they will either accept the offers or leave the NFL for 2013. There are also players to release, look for reworking existing contracts where players are clearly overpaid, etc. It's not as though the amount of money they will have is static. It's going to change based on what they do with all of those free agents and the players they draft (whose salaries are going to be set in stone via the CBA).

The fact that Reese hasn't given an answer yet is nothing more that strategy. We don't even know when Cruz's handler made their proposal. It's a stretch to say "they aren't talking."

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:13 PM
I agree with Slip...it's obvious he's asking for a big contract otherwise the two sides would still be talking. They have to be far off for talks to completely stop

It's not obvious at all.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:14 PM
Watch Reese surprise everyone and go grab another WR in the first now...

Why would we be "surprised" at any draft pick Reese makes? He doesn't exactly make predictions easy.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:15 PM
I would assume they offered him a contract similar to what Pitt offered Antonio Brown. 5 year ~$45 million.

I would expect Cruz to be asking for around $13-$15 mil a season.

But since this free agency will be loaded with WRs, TEs and OTs. Might be better letting these guys test FA.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:16 PM
Because if he put a reasonable contract on the table the giants would have kept talking. They wouldn't have agreed to disagree unless they are very far apart numbers wise.
How do you know its not the Giants that are being unreasonable?
How do you know ANYONE is being unreasonable?
Point is..none of us know anything and to speculate based on nothing is silly.
Contract negotiations are just that. .......NEGOTIATIONS. There is a process.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:17 PM
I would assume they offered him a contract similar to what Pitt offered Antonio Brown. 5 year ~$45 million.

I would expect Cruz to be asking for around $13-$15 mil a season.
Again....Based on what...........

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:18 PM
I would assume they offered him a contract similar to what Pitt offered Antonio Brown. 5 year ~$45 million.

I would expect Cruz to be asking for around $13-$15 mil a season.

But since this free agency will be loaded with WRs, TEs and OTs. Might be better letting these guys test FA.

We have no indication the Giants made the first offer.

Rudyy
01-31-2013, 12:22 PM
Here come the assumptionists!

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:23 PM
I would assume they offered him a contract similar to what Pitt offered Antonio Brown. 5 year ~$45 million.

I would expect Cruz to be asking for around $13-$15 mil a season.

But since this free agency will be loaded with WRs, TEs and OTs. Might be better letting these guys test FA.


Again....Based on what...........

Based on the going rate for mid-high level WRs, vs the upper level WRs.

This isn't rocket science. Giants and Cruz are obviously pretty far apart numbers wise considering they agreed to the structure of the deal a long time ago.

Reese has the upper hand in negotiations being that he can tender Cruz. But the giants would want a long term deal so won't really low ball him. They would give him a "fair" deal. Like the ones Pitt gave to Brown. Ironically, Pitt offered that same contract initially to Wallace, but Wallace turned it down because he felt he was worth more, so Pitt gave him the tag, had him play under that for the year. Then will probably let him walk.

The precedent is in place. Giants will negotiate some, but do not over pay for guys off a fair market value.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:24 PM
Here come the assumptionists!

Let the guessing begin

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:24 PM
We have no indication the Giants made the first offer.

Doesn't matter who made the first offer. When the team and player "agree to disagree" on the contract and walk away from it then clearly they are not in the same ballpark when it comes to numbers.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:27 PM
Doesn't matter who made the first offer. When the team and player "agree to disagree" on the contract and walk away from it then clearly they are not in the same ballpark when it comes to numbers.

You are making assumptions. Who has agreed to disagree? Who has walked away?

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 12:27 PM
I'm assuming that the lion's share of the focus is on Beatty right now. I doubt Reese wants to go back to the offensive line struggles of 2011 where everyone and their grandmother had their way with Diehl. Beatty should be easier to get on a more team friendly deal this year with the OT FA class compared to Cruz being the top guy for this year's WRs.

egyptian420
01-31-2013, 12:28 PM
Why would we be "surprised" at any draft pick Reese makes? He doesn't exactly make predictions easy.I'd be very surprised if we drafted a QB, RB, or WR

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:28 PM
I'd be very surprised if we drafted a QB, RB, or WR

I'll give you QB

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:30 PM
You are making assumptions. Who has agreed to disagree? Who has walked away?

Cruz said they agreed to disagree and both sides walked away. Then in this article he says "we are waiting for them to come back to us"

And which side walked away is not important. The fact that they are so far apart that either side felt the need to walk away is.

Sundown
01-31-2013, 12:31 PM
I think things will pickup after the combine. The fo needs to get a handle on our key FA and see what funds they'll have. Just my guess

hadenough
01-31-2013, 12:31 PM
Doesn't matter who made the first offer. When the team and player "agree to disagree" on the contract and walk away from it then clearly they are not in the same ballpark when it comes to numbers.

It really doesn't matter...he's a restricted free agent so there's no rush to sign him. Highly doubt anyone will pay the high price for Cruz as a restricted free agent. They could take all of next year to come up with a contract for the long term.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:32 PM
Doesn't matter who made the first offer. When the team and player "agree to disagree" on the contract and walk away from it then clearly they are not in the same ballpark when it comes to numbers.
I f I was Cruz, I wouldn't take an offer like Antonio Brown got. Its rigged to get low salary early and all the big money comes at the end. He will undoubtedly be asked to rework that then or be released.
He got essentailly $9MM guaranteed (including $540,000 last year) and about $4.5MM this coming year. Then up to 6MM the next two seasons. After that, all bets are off.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 12:32 PM
Bennett is also the best TE FA this year too. Our receiving targets aren't coming cheap.

Delicreep
01-31-2013, 12:33 PM
Because if he put a reasonable contract on the table the giants would have kept talking. They wouldn't have agreed to disagree unless they are very far apart numbers wise.

Team Cruz should be putting an offer out that they are absolutely certain will not be accepted.
The Giants initial counter should be less than they know Cruz will accept, but not insulting.

and then it goes back and forth until both sides can live with it or it blows up.

I am always pissed if my first offer is accepted...I instantly know I could have done better

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:33 PM
It really doesn't matter...he's a restricted free agent so there's no rush to sign him. Highly doubt anyone will pay the high price for Cruz as a restricted free agent. They could take all of next year to come up with a contract for the long term.

Well if Cruz plays next season as a RFA he is far more likely to walk when that season ends. That's the incentive for the giants to lock him up long term

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:35 PM
Team Cruz should be putting an offer out that they are absolutely certain will not be accepted.
The Giants initial counter should be less than they know Cruz will accept, but not insulting.

and then it goes back and forth until both sides can live with it or it blows up.

I am always pissed if my first offer is accepted...I instantly know I could have done better
Yeah...I think Slippy is being a bit naive here.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Team Cruz should be putting an offer out that they absolutely certain will not be accepted.
The Giants initial counter should be less than they know Cruz will accept, but not insulting.

and then it goes back and forth until both sides can live with it or it blows up.

I am always pissed if my first offer is accepted...I instantly know I could have done better

Right. And they talked for a little while, got the structure of it done. Then there was seemingly no movement on price.

So both sides agreed to disagree and walked away.

I would assume if they were relatively close, let's say 2-3 million per year it isn't overly significant and they could continue talking. But 5+ is a non starter.

But Reese has made it very clear with his own FAs that he offers them what he believes to be a fair deal and if the players don't take it, he lets them walk.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Cruz said they agreed to disagree and both sides walked away. Then in this article he says "we are waiting for them to come back to us"

And which side walked away is not important. The fact that they are so far apart that either side felt the need to walk away is.

Slip, where did Cruz say they "agreed to disagree." We don't have a clue how far apart they might be, nor do we know anyone walked away. Reese, as you pointed out, can simply put a tender on Cruz. When/if that happens, then you can say the team "walked away" from negotiations. You've put Cruz's offer higher than anyone else at $13 - 15M. The franchise tag for a WR is $10+M.

Again, these are all assumptions.

Mercury
01-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Wouldn't Cruz's agent want to at the very least see what offers are put on the table from other teams? Since other teams can't make offers yet, the negotitations with the Giants aren't going to move along.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:38 PM
I f I was Cruz, I wouldn't take an offer like Antonio Brown got. Its rigged to get low salary early and all the big money comes at the end. He will undoubtedly be asked to rework that then or be released.
He got essentailly $9MM guaranteed (including $540,000 last year) and about $4.5MM this coming year. Then up to 6MM the next two seasons. After that, all bets are off.

I didn't say anything about the structure of Browns deal. Just the total value.

PBTimmons
01-31-2013, 12:38 PM
I f I was Cruz, I wouldn't take an offer like Antonio Brown got. Its rigged to get low salary early and all the big money comes at the end. He will undoubtedly be asked to rework that then or be released.
He got essentailly $9MM guaranteed (including $540,000 last year) and about $4.5MM this coming year. Then up to 6MM the next two seasons. After that, all bets are off.

Interesting insight. I can't disagree but I would say that Antonio's and Victor's situations aren't exactly the same. I figure Cruz is making tons on endorsements, book sales....etc. He is much more marketable than Antonio Brown.

Just more perspective.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:39 PM
Wouldn't Cruz's agent want to at the very least see what offers are put on the table from other teams? Since other teams can't make offers yet, the negotitations with the Giants aren't going to move along.

Other teams can't make offers to him until after the RFA deadline has passed if Cruz got a tender offer.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:39 PM
Well if Cruz plays next season as a RFA he is far more likely to walk when that season ends. That's the incentive for the giants to lock him up long term

On this I agree. If they tender Cruz, in essence getting him to play for one year at chump change, he's being slapped in the face. So he needs to suck it up, play lights out, and go elsewhere in 2014 where his talents would be properly compensated. If the reason Reese can't pay a fair market amount is the CAP, so be it. If he just wants to get Cruz cheap for another year, that's pathetic IMO. I don't think Reese will do that. I think he will make a legitimate offer.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 12:40 PM
Wouldn't Cruz's agent want to at the very least see what offers are put on the table from other teams? Since other teams can't make offers yet, the negotitations with the Giants aren't going to move along.

Probably but I doubt they will get anything too far out of the ballpark of realism since they'll have to surrender a 1st rounder too. Very hard to win those sort of deals when you drop $10mil kind of cash and give up a potentially valuable future player.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:41 PM
Wouldn't Cruz's agent want to at the very least see what offers are put on the table from other teams? Since other teams can't make offers yet, the negotitations with the Giants aren't going to move along.

Yes, Reese is the one who shouldn't want that to happen

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:42 PM
Slip, where did Cruz say they "agreed to disagree." We don't have a clue how far apart they might be, nor do we know anyone walked away. Reese, as you pointed out, can simply put a tender on Cruz. When/if that happens, then you can say the team "walked away" from negotiations. You've put Cruz's offer higher than anyone else at $13 - 15M. The franchise tag for a WR is $10+M.

Again, these are all assumptions.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fsports%2Ffo otball%2Fgiants%2Fcruz-thinking-long-term-g-men-article-1.1231901&ei=KawKUbHVNdKM0QGNlYHoDg&usg=AFQjCNGxeol17f1Z_BHOy5X4hlk8iHHhpw

As for the numbers, Calvin Johnson gets $16 a year. Fitz gets $15.
As I said. Upper high end is $15 a year or more.

Cruz I would think wants somewhere around 13 or so. Maybe a bit less like $12

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 12:43 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fsports%2Ffo otball%2Fgiants%2Fcruz-thinking-long-term-g-men-article-1.1231901&ei=KawKUbHVNdKM0QGNlYHoDg&usg=AFQjCNGxeol17f1Z_BHOy5X4hlk8iHHhpw

As for the numbers, Calvin Johnson gets $16 a year. Fitz gets $15.
As I said. Upper high end is $15 a year or more.

Cruz I would think wants somewhere around 13 or so. Maybe a bit less like $12


Still as assumption

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:44 PM
On this I agree. If they tender Cruz, in essence getting him to play for one year at chump change, he's being slapped in the face. So he needs to suck it up, play lights out, and go elsewhere in 2014 where his talents would be properly compensated. If the reason Reese can't pay a fair market amount is the CAP, so be it. If he just wants to get Cruz cheap for another year, that's pathetic IMO. I don't think Reese will do that. I think he will make a legitimate offer.
Cap room isn't the problem. They have the cap room to resign him to $16 a year. But the giants are not willing to over pay their own FAs. Never have under Reese. They will offer fair value and if the player walks, so be it. Find a replacement.

Delicreep
01-31-2013, 12:44 PM
Right. And they talked for a little while, got the structure of it done. Then there was seemingly no movement on price.

So both sides agreed to disagree and walked away.

I would assume if they were relatively close, let's say 2-3 million per year it isn't overly significant and they could continue talking. But 5+ is a non starter.

But Reese has made it very clear with his own FAs that he offers them what he believes to be a fair deal and if the players don't take it, he lets them walk.

Want a better way to look at it?

If I have one deal I consider a "must have", then I am going to want to know the maximum amount I can muster to get it done.

And as important as that deal may be, I would have to get a lot of little deals done to know that maximum amount.

Short hand...sign everyone else and see whats left.

Cruz isn't in a hurry because that is exactly what his agent told him, "the gravy train is coming, just need to see how big your biscuit wheels will be"

nhpgiantsfan
01-31-2013, 12:46 PM
Nobody know what Cruz is asking for and nobody knows what Reese is willing to pay him. However, there is one thing that is very safe to assume. His agent is going to compare his clients numbers to other WR's and he is going to ask the Giants for a contract that is comparable to those that other WR's with similar stats have already signed. That's pretty much how this works. It has nothing to do with Cruz' personality or the fact that the Giants gave him his big break. It has to do with the market that has been set by his peers.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:46 PM
I didn't say anything about the structure of Browns deal. Just the total value.
You know as well as I that the "total deal" in NFL contracts mean absolutely nothing. Its about guaranteed money and how many years the team has control of the player.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:48 PM
Want a better way to look at it?

If I have one deal I consider a "must have", then I am going to want to know the maximum amount I can muster to get it done.

And as important as that deal may be, I would have to get a lot of little deals done to know that maximum amount.

Short hand...sign everyone else and see whats left.

Cruz isn't in a hurry because that is exactly what his agent told him, "the gravy train is coming, just need to see how big your biscuit wheels will be"

Problem with this theory is the Steve smith story. Smith was offered the "biggest contract of any giants WR in history" yet did not sign in hopes that he could make more money after looking at what other teams could offer. He then injured himself and his career is over.

I'm not saying players should take any contract given, but if the giants did indeed offer him a fair deal then he may regret not taking it later.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:50 PM
Problem with this theory is the Steve smith story. Smith was offered the "biggest contract of any giants WR in history" yet did not sign in hopes that he could make more money after looking at what other teams could offer. He then injured himself and his career is over.

I'm not saying players should take any contract given, but if the giants did indeed offer him a fair deal then he may regret not taking it later.
How do you know what kind of deal they offered?
I assume they offered a very "team friendly" deal.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:51 PM
You know as well as I that the "total deal" in NFL contracts mean absolutely nothing. Its about guaranteed money and how many years the team has control of the player.

You are making a separate argument. I'm not talking about structure of the deal. Just the total money. Which is what the two sides disagree on. The total money is absolutely important in contracts. Otherwise players would just ask for guaranteed money and tell the team to not bother with the rest.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 12:51 PM
Cruz's competition

Dwayne Bowe (Drops lots of passes that his team needs him in the clutch)

Mike Wallace (One trick pony)

Greg Jennings (Good but too injury plagued to compete with Cruz)

Wes Welker (You really want to give Welker a huge contract at 32?)

His agent knows he's the trophy girl of the group and they're going to see what else is offered before getting tied up with the Giants.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:52 PM
How do you know what kind of deal they offered?
I assume they offered a very "team friendly" deal.

I'm sure they did. Which would put the money at around $8-9 a season.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 12:53 PM
Cruz's competition

Dwayne Bowe (Drops lots of passes that his team needs him in the clutch)

Mike Wallace (One trick pony)

Greg Jennings (Good but too injury plagued to compete with Cruz)

Wes Welker (You really want to give Welker a huge contract at 32?)

His agent knows he's the trophy girl of the group and they're going to see what else is offered before getting tied up with the Giants.

Can't compare UFAs to an RFA with a first round tender.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:56 PM
You are making a separate argument. I'm not talking about structure of the deal. Just the total money. Which is what the two sides disagree on. The total money is absolutely important in contracts. Otherwise players would just ask for guaranteed money and tell the team to not bother with the rest.
Thats simply not true. The out years are very important for the clubs. They have the leverage to restructure down the road. The player want the most guaranteed money and the trade off is giving the team more years.
The total amount of NFL contracts are rarely paid. With the cap, so many deals are restructured. Even Eli's. But the clubs don't want their players with the power to test the FA market. Thats why they want the years.

So its NOT about the totality of the contract. Its about the guaranteed money (what the player is looking for) and the years (what the clubs are looking for)

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 12:57 PM
I'm sure they did. Which would put the money at around $8-9 a season.
I'm sticking with my prediction that I made several weeks ago. I say it ends up being something like 5 years, $28MM with $12MM or so guaranteed.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 12:59 PM
Can't compare UFAs to an RFA with a first round tender.

If teams get a chance to offer, sure you can. Odds are that they won't get what they expect to receive due to the tender attached and Cruz will sign it.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:05 PM
Thats simply not true. The out years are very important for the clubs. They have the leverage to restructure down the road. The player want the most guaranteed money and the trade off is giving the team more years.
The total amount of NFL contracts are rarely paid. With the cap, so many deals are restructured. Even Eli's. But the clubs don't want their players with the power to test the FA market. Thats why they want the years.

So its NOT about the totality of the contract. Its about the guaranteed money (what the player is looking for) and the years (what the clubs are looking for)

This is completely and totally wrong.

Yes it is true that players rarely reach the totals of the deals, however, that does not mean they aren't important.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with restructures but those do not change the total money. Just covert base salary to a signing bonus that is paid up front to the player.

But as far as your Eli example, if the only thing that mattered was guaranteed money and length of contract then lets see.

Eli signed a 7 year contract with $35 million guaranteed.

He had an original signing bonus of $13 mil, had an option bonus in 2010 of $12.5. Then his restructure paid him $9 mil up front

That's $35 million right there. That's all he should have made, right?

Well he still of course had his non guaranteed base salary, which over those years was another $25 million

So Eli has so far made $60 million on his $35 mil guaranteed contract.

Base salaries and total money are ABSOLUTELY important. Even if they are not paid out in full

jomo
01-31-2013, 01:05 PM
Massive contract? Where do you read that?Fine print I guess.......so fine most of us can't see it.

Cloud57
01-31-2013, 01:06 PM
This looks like it will drag on to August.

jomo
01-31-2013, 01:06 PM
I'm sticking with my prediction that I made several weeks ago. I say it ends up being something like 5 years, $28MM with $12MM or so guaranteed.That would be very fair to the Giants. If it is good for Cruz, it's time to make that deal.

GameTime
01-31-2013, 01:06 PM
So Cruz puts a massive contract on the table. Then walks away and says they will agree to it eventually when they get desperate enough?

Yea. He is getting tendered this year and walking away next year.

Reese puts a value on guys and doesn't over pay them. Sorry Cruz.
doesnt over pay??
Baas
Canty
Rolle

Delicreep
01-31-2013, 01:08 PM
Problem with this theory is the Steve smith story. Smith was offered the "biggest contract of any giants WR in history" yet did not sign in hopes that he could make more money after looking at what other teams could offer. He then injured himself and his career is over.

I'm not saying players should take any contract given, but if the giants did indeed offer him a fair deal then he may regret not taking it later.

You switched sides, and you did it in a way that is a sure fire way to see this as un-resolvable.

If Cruz has no interest in a long term contract with the Giants, then it is all a waste of time. There is absolutely no evidence that that is even remotely true.

There is every indication that a deal is exactly what he wants, and he naturally wants the deal that gets him every dime.

In the meantime, Cruz is doing the smartest thing possible: He's saying almost nothing. Remains upbeat and positive and talks about it being a process. All of this sends the signal that he wants this to work.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:08 PM
If teams get a chance to offer, sure you can. Odds are that they won't get what they expect to receive due to the tender attached and Cruz will sign it.

Eh? There is considerable more value a team is giving up if they are handing out a contract and a first round pick than of they were handing out just a contract. It's a poor comparison.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:08 PM
That would be very fair to the Giants. If it is good for Cruz, it's time to make that deal.

I would feel like a chump if I was Cruz's agent and had that deal locked up lol.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:10 PM
doesnt over pay??
Baas
Canty
Rolle

His own free agents. See Gibril Wilson, Manningham, Butler, Ward, etc.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:11 PM
I'm sticking with my prediction that I made several weeks ago. I say it ends up being something like 5 years, $28MM with $12MM or so guaranteed.
So you expect cruz will sign for half the money Antonio brown did??

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:11 PM
Eh? There is considerable more value a team is giving up if they are handing out a contract and a first round pick than of they were handing out just a contract. It's a poor comparison.

...I already mentioned that earlier in the thread. My point is that Cruz's agent probably feels that he has the best WR in the FA class and even with the risk of the 1st round tender, it's worth testing the waters to see if a desperate team will roll the dice and overpay for his player. A tender doesn't mean that you still can't compare it to other players in the class.

titwio
01-31-2013, 01:12 PM
I'd be very surprised if we drafted a QB, RB, or WR

If a guy like Robert Woods slips to #51 in the 2nd round (and it's very possible), I wouldn't be surprised at all if Reese pulls the trigger just based on value alone.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:16 PM
...I already mentioned that earlier in the thread. My point is that Cruz's agent probably feels that he has the best WR in the FA class and even with the risk of the 1st round tender, it's worth testing the waters to see if a desperate team will roll the dice and overpay for his player. A tender doesn't mean that you still can't compare it to other players in the class.

And if no team is willing to give up both a first round pick and a $10+ a year contract that does what for Cruz?

Just like Wallace last year. Nobody gave him any sort of offers

Antwuan
01-31-2013, 01:18 PM
I still believe the Giants will have a deal ready for Victor Cruz before FA starts.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:26 PM
And if no team is willing to give up both a first round pick and a $10+ a year contract that does what for Cruz?

Just like Wallace last year. Nobody gave him any sort of offers

Cruz obviously signs the tender. Agents always overrate the expectations for their player and I don't see how this time will be any different. He's not getting Megatron/Fitz money but you can be sure he will do better than Antonio Brown.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:29 PM
Cruz obviously signs the tender. Agents always overrate the expectations for their player and I don't see how this time will be any different. He's not getting Megatron/Fitz money but you can be sure he will do better than Antonio Brown.

I don't follow at all what you are saying. Yes Cruz would have to sign the giants tender offer...

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:31 PM
I don't follow at all what you are saying. Yes Cruz would have to sign the giants tender offer...

Cruz's agent will test his player out in the market to see what they can fetch. They will be disappointed and sign the tender. Simple as that.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:32 PM
Cruz's agent will test his player out in the market to see what they can fetch. They will be disappointed and sign the tender. Simple as that.

Cruz has to sign the tender in order to test out the market. He can't test out the market otherwise.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 01:37 PM
So you expect cruz will sign for half the money Antonio brown did??
No. Again..the total amount means nothing. He will sign for more guaranteed money and fewer years. Brown got an $8.5MM bonus and Cruz will get more. He's a better player. I say Cruz gets at least $12MM guaranteed and less of a back loaded deal.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 01:37 PM
His own free agents. See Gibril Wilson, Manningham, Butler, Ward, etc.

None of those players had the impact on the team Cruz has had,.

TCHOF
01-31-2013, 01:37 PM
And if no team is willing to give up both a first round pick and a $10+ a year contract that does what for Cruz?

Just like Wallace last year. Nobody gave him any sort of offers

Exactly. We have all of the negotiating power going into next season. That's why now is the best time to get a long term deal done that is at least somewhat "team-friendly".

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:39 PM
Cruz has to sign the tender in order to test out the market. He can't test out the market otherwise.

Are you sure that's how it works? I could have sworn he was free to test out other offers for a limited period of time before he was forced to actually sign the team's first round tender.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 01:42 PM
Exactly. We have all of the negotiating power going into next season. That's why now is the best time to get a long term deal done that is at least somewhat "team-friendly".
Then lets allow the process to play out before we start making statements like "Cruz is asking for $15MM" and "the Giants have made a fair proposal".

None of us know at all what's happened or is happening.
The process will work it out. I doubt anyone is a villain or a hero. Its simple market forces at work.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 01:42 PM
Exactly. We have all of the negotiating power going into next season. That's why now is the best time to get a long term deal done that is at least somewhat "team-friendly".

What does team friendly mean?

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:43 PM
No. Again..the total amount means nothing. He will sign for more guaranteed money and fewer years. Brown got an $8.5MM bonus and Cruz will get more. He's a better player. I say Cruz gets at least $12MM guaranteed and less of a back loaded deal.


I already explained this to you. Saying "total money means nothing" is the equivalent of telling a sales person that his base salary is all that matters and commission means nothing.

Players absolutely make substantial money above what they are guaranteed.

Since you ignored my Eli example. Lets try with another player. Boley.

Boley has 1 year left and may be released before he is paid his 4.5 base salary.

Means he has only made the $11 mil he was guaranteed, right? Turns out he has made $20 million. Short of his $25 million total potential, but if you want to tell me that $9 million he has made over his guaranteed money is meaningless, well. You are wrong

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:44 PM
Are you sure that's how it works? I could have sworn he was free to test out other offers for a limited period of time before he was forced to actually sign the team's first round tender.

Maybe. Either way. He is never really a free agent. Giants always get to match any offer that Cruz signs. And if they chose not to match they get a first round pick in compensation.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 01:47 PM
Maybe. Either way. He is never really a free agent. Giants always get to match any offer that Cruz signs. And if they chose not to match they get a first round pick in compensation.

You've said before you'd rather that scenario but I always prefer the known performer to the "who will we get" unknown.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 01:50 PM
Maybe. Either way. He is never really a free agent. Giants always get to match any offer that Cruz signs. And if they chose not to match they get a first round pick in compensation.

True. We seem to both agree that he ends up signing a tender for 2013 anyway. His future past next season is up in the air.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:50 PM
You've said before you'd rather that scenario but I always prefer the known performer to the "who will we get" unknown.

Everyone can be replaced. A first round pick plus an additional $10 or so million of cap room is not all that bad

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:51 PM
True. We seem to both agree that he ends up signing a tender for 2013 anyway. His future past next season is up in the air.

Unless all he gets are average deals as an RFA and signs one of them. Then the giants match and keep him for average money.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 01:52 PM
I already explained this to you. Saying "total money means nothing" is the equivalent of telling a sales person that his base salary is all that matters and commission means nothing.

Players absolutely make substantial money above what they are guaranteed.

Since you ignored my Eli example. Lets try with another player. Boley.

Boley has 1 year left and may be released before he is paid his 4.5 base salary.

Means he has only made the $11 mil he was guaranteed, right? Turns out he has made $20 million. Short of his $25 million total potential, but if you want to tell me that $9 million he has made over his guaranteed money is meaningless, well. You are wrong

It means very little because rarely does a player play out the entirety of any long term contract. Contracts are either restructured down the road or a player is released. The fact that they are not guaranteed is why they mean very little.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 01:57 PM
It means very little because rarely does a player play out the entirety of any long term contract. Contracts are either restructured down the road or a player is released. The fact that they are not guaranteed is why they mean very little.

As I just said, boley could get released this season before his contract ends. He will still have made almost twice as much as he was guaranteed. How is that insignificant?

And restructures DO NOT pay the player less. They convert base salary into an up front guaranteed signing bonus.

Players rarely seeing the total amount of the contract is not at all the same thing as saying the total value doesn't matter.

TCHOF
01-31-2013, 02:02 PM
What does team friendly mean?

Less than we would be able to sign him for if he was completely unrestricted and could sign with the highest bidder. Either way it won't be cheap.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:05 PM
Everyone can be replaced. A first round pick plus an additional $10 or so million of cap room is not all that bad

It depends on perspective. I don't see Cruz as a one hit wonder with no future value.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:06 PM
Less than we would be able to sign him for if he was completely unrestricted and could sign with the highest bidder. Either way it won't be cheap.

I guess we'll know by mid-March. Another alternative could be an agreement to tender him and continue negotiating a long term deal to be finalized before the season starts.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 02:06 PM
It depends on perspective. I don't see Cruz as a one hit wonder with no future value.

Me neither. But that doesn't mean he is irreplaceable either. Giants won plenty of games without him.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:08 PM
Me neither. But that doesn't mean he is irreplaceable either. Giants won plenty of games without him.

They won a lot of games with Eli and Lawrence Taylor too.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 02:09 PM
It depends on perspective. I don't see Cruz as a one hit wonder with no future value.

I doubt he's a system player like some speculate but he doesn't come off as a "can't miss" player like Megatron is with the Lions or AP is with the Vikings.

Anyway, I think something around 5 years/$55mil with around 10-20 guaranteed is a very reasonable expectation for a long term solution between the two sides.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 02:12 PM
They won a lot of games with Eli and Lawrence Taylor too.

And soon Eli won't be on the team either. Have to just do your best to place dollar values on a guys production on the field and stick to that. For $10 million + a first round pick could they find another 1300 yard receiver? Well welker is a free agent. And he could probably be had for $10 million or less a season. Perhaps not a long term solution. But there are always options.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:14 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8901422/victor-cruz-not-antsy-waiting-deal-new-york-giants

Excerpt: "Cruz will be a restricted free agent but the receiver hopes he remains a priority for Giants brass. The Giants have several free agents and are projected to be $4.7 million over the cap for 2013.

"I think so, I would hope so," Cruz said of being a priority. "I consider myself as a pretty high priority in the Giants organization right now. Hopefully, they feel the same way and we can get to an agreement."

If the two sides do not come to an agreement on an extension by March 12 when free agency begins, the Giants will likely give Cruz a first-round, restricted free-agent, one-year tender of $2.879 million. The Giants will receive a first-round pick as compensation if Cruz signs an offer with another team and the Giants opt not to match."I have no feeling whether I want to be tendered, how I feel about it," Cruz said when asked by reporters about the RFA tender. "Either way, I just want to come to an agreement where something will keep me in New York." Read more...

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:15 PM
And soon Eli won't be on the team either. Have to just do your best to place dollar values on a guys production on the field and stick to that. For $10 million + a first round pick could they find another 1300 yard receiver? Well welker is a free agent. And he could probably be had for $10 million or less a season. Perhaps not a long term solution. But there are always options.

Options abound. I still prefer Cruz play and retire here.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 02:17 PM
As I just said, boley could get released this season before his contract ends. He will still have made almost twice as much as he was guaranteed. How is that insignificant?

And restructures DO NOT pay the player less. They convert base salary into an up front guaranteed signing bonus.

Players rarely seeing the total amount of the contract is not at all the same thing as saying the total value doesn't matter.
That is not always true at all about the restructure.
Sometimes a team will ask a player to redo his deal or be released. Ala Kerry Collins in 2004. He refused but if he had agreed, he would have taken a huge pay cut. In the case of Eli, he restructured to make 2012 more cap friendly but probably got more money overall to do it.

I'm not saying that the guaranteed money is all a player gets. I'm saying that when the guaranteed is paid, its completely up to the team as to whether or not a contract is continued. If they believe the player is worth it at the time,(like Michael Boley) they keep it in place. If not they can ask for a restructure or the player can be released. The point is the team has all the power at that time. The only thing they have to honor is the guarantee.

primetime
01-31-2013, 02:21 PM
Plenty of time to get a deal done, I'm not worried..yet

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:23 PM
Unless all he gets are average deals as an RFA and signs one of them. Then the giants match and keep him for average money.

I just don't see Reese doing that, but I guess anything can happen. Let's say Reese tenders Cruz which, it has been reported, pays him $2.88M for 2013. Team "A" who has a real need for a play maker receiver and plenty of CAP space, says we'll pay you $11.5M per year for 5 years, $22M guaranteed. Reese matches that in the end. Doesn't that make him look a little silly?

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 02:26 PM
I just don't see Reese doing that, but I guess anything can happen. Let's say Reese tenders Cruz which, it has been reported, pays him $2.88M for 2013. Team "A" who has a real need for a play maker receiver and plenty of CAP space, says we'll pay you $11.5M per year for 5 years, $22M guaranteed. Reese matches that in the end. Doesn't that make him look a little silly?
If they tender Cruz and he ends up back with the Giants, they will most certainly negotiate a contract instead of paying the 1 year tender.
It would be shocking to me if Cruz didn't end up with a multi year deal with the Giants. Its just not in anybody's interest.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 02:26 PM
That is not always true at all about the restructure.
Sometimes a team will ask a player to redo his deal or be released. Ala Kerry Collins in 2004. He refused but if he had agreed, he would have taken a huge pay cut. In the case of Eli, he restructured to make 2012 more cap friendly but probably got more money overall to do it.

I'm not saying that the guaranteed money is all a player gets. I'm saying that when the guaranteed is paid, its completely up to the team as to whether or not a contract is continued. If they believe the player is worth it at the time,(like Michael Boley) they keep it in place. If not they can ask for a restructure or the player can be released. The point is the team has all the power at that time. The only thing they have to honor is the guarantee.

Taking a paycut is not the same thing as a restructure. Restructures just move the money around.

Eli did not get additional money. The overall numbers stayed exactly the same. He just converted base to a bonus. Which prorates the money in terms of the cap.

And you keep saying that the overall money is meaningless. When it's clearly not.

And as for teams having all the power when the guaranteed money runs out. Well sort of. It depends on the structure. Having a large signing bonus would mean the team is still on the hook in regards to the salary cap and cutting the player would result in a worse situation. Like the jets with Sanchez. His guaranteed money is gone but it would cost them far more cap dollars to release him than keep him.

In any case the total dollar amount of a contract is extremely important.

Cruz is not going to sign a contract that pays roughly half of what Brown got just because he had $10 more guaranteed.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 02:28 PM
I just don't see Reese doing that, but I guess anything can happen. Let's say Reese tenders Cruz which, it has been reported, pays him $2.88M for 2013. Team "A" who has a real need for a play maker receiver and plenty of CAP space, says we'll pay you $11.5M per year for 5 years, $22M guaranteed. Reese matches that in the end. Doesn't that make him look a little silly?

I'm not sure I follow. Who is made to look silly there and why?

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:28 PM
Taking a paycut is not the same thing as a restructure. Restructures just move the money around.

Eli did not get additional money. The overall numbers stayed exactly the same. He just converted base to a bonus. Which prorates the money in terms of the cap.

And you keep saying that the overall money is meaningless. When it's clearly not.

And as for teams having all the power when the guaranteed money runs out. Well sort of. It depends on the structure. Having a large signing bonus would mean the team is still on the hook in regards to the salary cap and cutting the player would result in a worse situation. Like the jets with Sanchez. His guaranteed money is gone but it would cost them far more cap dollars to release him than keep him.

In any case the total dollar amount of a contract is extremely important.

Cruz is not going to sign a contract that pays roughly half of what Brown got just because he had $10 more guaranteed.

I have a feeling Reese is going to look for some pay cutting this year.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:29 PM
I'm not sure I follow. Who is made to look silly there and why?

If Reese matches numbers he could have just offered Cruz, wouldn't that make him look silly? That would seem to mean Reese didn't understand Cruz's fair market value.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 02:29 PM
Taking a paycut is not the same thing as a restructure. Restructures just move the money around.

Eli did not get additional money. The overall numbers stayed exactly the same. He just converted base to a bonus. Which prorates the money in terms of the cap.

And you keep saying that the overall money is meaningless. When it's clearly not.

And as for teams having all the power when the guaranteed money runs out. Well sort of. It depends on the structure. Having a large signing bonus would mean the team is still on the hook in regards to the salary cap and cutting the player would result in a worse situation. Like the jets with Sanchez. His guaranteed money is gone but it would cost them far more cap dollars to release him than keep him.

In any case the total dollar amount of a contract is extremely important.

Cruz is not going to sign a contract that pays roughly half of what Brown got just because he had $10 more guaranteed.

Well then let me be clear regarding my earlier statement.
Most long term contracts are not played out by the player. They are usually restructured, negotiated downward, or the player is released.
Stop with the semantics. Its a BS argument.
Another example is Corey Webster. The Giants may very well ask (demand really) that he take a pay cut this year or be released.
It happens all the time in the NFL.

The overall value of the contract is practically meaningless. Is that better.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 02:39 PM
Well then let me be clear regarding my earlier statement.
Most long term contracts are not played out by the player. They are usually restructured, negotiated downward, or the player is released.
Stop with the semantics. Its a BS argument.
Another example is Corey Webster. The Giants may very well ask (demand really) that he take a pay cut this year or be released.
It happens all the time in the NFL.

The overall value of the contract is practically meaningless. Is that better.

And you are still incredibly wrong.

You want to use Webster as why the overall value means nothing? Ok let's go ahead

Webster signed a 6 year 43.5 million deal with $20 guaranteed.

So you are saying the $20 million is the only important part and the other $23 million is meaningless because Webster could be released this year?

Well lets see how much Webster has made so far.

$5 mil signing bonus
$3.6 mil 2010 signing bonus
$4 mil 2011 roster bonus

And then his base salaries in previous years which he has already been paid.
2008 - $520k
2009 - 5.4 mil
2010 - 2.75 mil
2011 - 5 mil
2012 - 6.5 mil

Add all that up and Webster has so far made 32.7 million. $12 million dollars that according to you is "meaningless"

So yes, if he got released this year he would not make that 43 million total number. But to suggest that the other 12 million he has made above the guaranteed number is meaningless is insanity.


That you are still claiming restructures reduce what a player earns just boggles my mind. I have explained it already. Restructures take a future base salty and convert it to a signing bonus that the player receives when he agrees to the deal.

And it's not semantics at all. The difference with saying a player is unlikely to receive the total value of a contract is absolutely true. Saying the total value is therefore practically meaningless is absolutely wrong.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 02:44 PM
MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 02:45 PM
And you are still incredibly wrong.

You want to use Webster as why the overall value means nothing? Ok let's go ahead

Webster signed a 6 year 43.5 million deal with $20 guaranteed.

So you are saying the $20 million is the only important part and the other $23 million is meaningless because Webster could be released this year?

Well lets see how much Webster has made so far.

$5 mil signing bonus
$3.6 mil 2010 signing bonus
$4 mil 2011 roster bonus

And then his base salaries in previous years which he has already been paid.
2008 - $520k
2009 - 5.4 mil
2010 - 2.75 mil
2011 - 5 mil
2012 - 6.5 mil

Add all that up and Webster has so far made 32.7 million. $12 million dollars that according to you is "meaningless"

So yes, if he got released this year he would not make that 43 million total number. But to suggest that the other 12 million he has made above the guaranteed number is meaningless is insanity.
But it has been completely up to the discretion of the team. The Giants could have voided all of that contract at any time outside the guarantee. The team CHOSE to continue paying Webby and may or may not this season.

How much of that $100MM did Albert Haynesworth get? Not much. Because the $100MMM figure was MEANINGLESS.
Aside the guarantee, a team can void any deal for any reason. Thats why it means next to nothing. If a player in on the last year and is due $10MM. the team can pay it if they chose or tell the player to pound sand. That $10MM is practically MEANINGLESS. The only significance is that the team has a guaranteed option to pay a player that much if they chose.

How much of Nate Clements contract did the Niners pay?.... Answer: very little.
There are countless examples.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 02:46 PM
MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.

Maybe 5/$35M, $20M, guaranteed?

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 02:48 PM
MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.
It depends on how its structured. If its balanced for the 5 years I can see it. If the load it in the back end, it would be a bad deal.
You can call it $40MM if you want. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that he gets a good guaranteed amount, and he gets his $6 or $7 MM per year.

TheEnigma
01-31-2013, 02:53 PM
It depends on how its structured. If its balanced for the 5 years I can see it. If the load it in the back end, it would be a bad deal.
You can call it $40MM if you want. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that he gets a good guaranteed amount, and he gets his $6 or $7 MM per year.

That still seems way too low for the current market. Roddy White signed a 6 year/$48 million contract back in 2009 while you have Anquan Boldin on a 4 year/$28 million contract back in 2010 when the Cards traded him to the Ravens. Something around $9 to $11mil a year seems to be reasonable considering his youth and on a much smaller note, his marketability.

RoanokeFan
01-31-2013, 03:03 PM
That still seems way too low for the current market. Roddy White signed a 6 year/$48 million contract back in 2009 while you have Anquan Boldin on a 4 year/$28 million contract back in 2010 when the Cards traded him to the Ravens. Something around $9 to $11mil a year seems to be reasonable considering his youth and on a much smaller note, his marketability.

I wouldn't downplay his "marketability." He is playing in the largest media market in the world and is already taking advantage of that exposure. He also is in the clothing business, which he started before becoming the impact player he has become. It could well be he just wants a respectable, fair offer to stay here.

slipknottin
01-31-2013, 03:15 PM
But it has been completely up to the discretion of the team. The Giants could have voided all of that contract at any time outside the guarantee. The team CHOSE to continue paying Webby and may or may not this season.

How much of that $100MM did Albert Haynesworth get? Not much. Because the $100MMM figure was MEANINGLESS.
Aside the guarantee, a team can void any deal for any reason. Thats why it means next to nothing. If a player in on the last year and is due $10MM. the team can pay it if they chose or tell the player to pound sand. That $10MM is practically MEANINGLESS. The only significance is that the team has a guaranteed option to pay a player that much if they chose.

How much of Nate Clements contract did the Niners pay?.... Answer: very little.
There are countless examples.

You are really struggling with this aren't you.

A player is unlikely to receive all of the total money of a contract. A player is not guaranteed to earn any of the money in a contract above what is guaranteed. (Aren't even guaranteed to earn what is guaranteed, actually. Haynesworth didn't) but that does NOT mean that that money is meaningless.

If a player believes he will continue to do well that money is absolutely there for them to earn.

Just like I showed with Webster boley or Eli.

The total number is absolutely 100% important. That is money the player can earn.

You keep saying a player can be released and not owed any of it.
A player could get hurt and not earn any of his "guaranteed" money too.

But when a player like boley earns nearly double of what he was guaranteed I would say that is far from being meaningless.

Shockeystays08
01-31-2013, 03:21 PM
Watch Reese surprise everyone and go grab another WR in the first now...

No need for that, Jerry has JJ in the wings. He was drafted for the slot. if for some reason we can't resign Cruz a WR in the first would be a head scratcher with Jernigan already on the roster.

UK-Giantsfan
01-31-2013, 03:22 PM
Victor is the best story in New York sports for the last decade ............i love the guy ........pay him JR !

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 04:19 PM
You are really struggling with this aren't you.

A player is unlikely to receive all of the total money of a contract. A player is not guaranteed to earn any of the money in a contract above what is guaranteed. (Aren't even guaranteed to earn what is guaranteed, actually. Haynesworth didn't) but that does NOT mean that that money is meaningless.

If a player believes he will continue to do well that money is absolutely there for them to earn.

Just like I showed with Webster boley or Eli.

The total number is absolutely 100% important. That is money the player can earn.

You keep saying a player can be released and not owed any of it.
A player could get hurt and not earn any of his "guaranteed" money too.

But when a player like boley earns nearly double of what he was guaranteed I would say that is far from being meaningless.

If a player gets hurt he gets the guaranteed money.
thats the definition of "guaranteed money".

And since a player rarely gets all the money in a long term contract in the NFL, it is practically meaningless.
A lot of times they have some crazy baloon payment in a contract that gets included in the total of the deal, and they all know that it won't get paid.
I'm telling you, in any other sport you would be right. In the NFL its the guaranteed money and the total years (from the clubs perspective) that matters.

And the money is NOT there for them to earn if the FO decides to void the deal. And the player can't do anything about it. He could be playing great but if the team doesn't think he's worth it, he ain't getting it. Period.

Morehead State
01-31-2013, 04:25 PM
That still seems way too low for the current market. Roddy White signed a 6 year/$48 million contract back in 2009 while you have Anquan Boldin on a 4 year/$28 million contract back in 2010 when the Cards traded him to the Ravens. Something around $9 to $11mil a year seems to be reasonable considering his youth and on a much smaller note, his marketability.
No...you're right. That amount would be more like a 4 year deal.

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-31-2013, 04:38 PM
let's let this play out and not listen to know it alls who know nothing.


http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8901422/victor-cruz-not-antsy-waiting-deal-new-york-giants

Flip Empty
01-31-2013, 04:39 PM
Please don't turn into Osi v 2.0

giant-4-life
02-01-2013, 08:30 AM
man.. I'm gone a few days and the cry babies come out..
http://www.sc.saynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Screaming-Cry-baby-by-Ngo-Okafor.jpeg

Buddy333
02-01-2013, 08:33 AM
Seriously don't see him not signing here. The real issue will be signing Nicks next year.

drewz
02-01-2013, 01:40 PM
Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP (https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP) John Mara tells me he wants Victor Cruz back but won’t break the bank for him. Mara says his agent’s current demands are way too high.

Jenny Vrentas ‏@JennyVrentas (https://twitter.com/JennyVrentas)
Mara said Cruz "is a high priority, but he's not our only priority." Mara said they have a year -- they would tender him if no deal struck.


Yep. Just what I figured, Cruz probably wants top 5 receiver money, but the Giants don't want to pay him as such

Jppallday
02-01-2013, 01:46 PM
Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP (https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP) John Mara tells me he wants Victor Cruz back but won’t break the bank for him. Mara says his agent’s current demands are way too high.

Jenny Vrentas ‏@JennyVrentas (https://twitter.com/JennyVrentas)
Mara said Cruz "is a high priority, but he's not our only priority." Mara said they have a year -- they would tender him if no deal struck.


Yep. Just what I figured, Cruz probably wants top 5 receiver money, but the Giants don't want to pay him as such

As much as I love Cruz and think he is a great player, I do not want to see the Giants give him too much money. Nicks i8s the better receiver in my opinion, and you saw how the offense struggled without him at full strength. If Cruz wants too much and he ends up leaving, so be it. We will replace him some how

Ruttiger711
02-01-2013, 01:52 PM
So Cruz puts a massive contract on the table. Then walks away and says they will agree to it eventually when they get desperate enough?

Yea. He is getting tendered this year and walking away next year.

Reese puts a value on guys and doesn't over pay them. Sorry Cruz.

Your assesment may have just been the spot-on one.

Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP (https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP) "John Mara tells me he wants Victor Cruz back but won’t break the bank for him. Mara says his agent’s current demands are way too high."

Old Giant
02-01-2013, 01:57 PM
[QUOTE=Jppallday;674725]As much as I love Cruz and think he is a great player, I do not want to see the Giants give him too much money. Nicks i8s the better receiver in my opinion, and you saw how the offense struggled without him at full strength. If Cruz wants too much and he ends up leaving, so be it. We will replace him some how[/QUOTE

I have got to agree with this-his "magic" works when teams have to concentrate on Nicks. Without Nicks, he looked rather ordinary this year.
I certainly don't want him to go.

jomo
02-01-2013, 01:59 PM
What hat is Cruz wearing on the town this week-end?

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:01 PM
[QUOTE=Jppallday;674725]As much as I love Cruz and think he is a great player, I do not want to see the Giants give him too much money. Nicks i8s the better receiver in my opinion, and you saw how the offense struggled without him at full strength. If Cruz wants too much and he ends up leaving, so be it. We will replace him some how[/QUOTE

I have got to agree with this-his "magic" works when teams have to concentrate on Nicks. Without Nicks, he looked rather ordinary this year.
I certainly don't want him to go.

This is all just part of the negotiating process. I'm guessing Mara is going public to give the Cruz team something to mull over. The tender has always been the fall back position for the team. That will give Cruz time to see who wants him and for what on the open market. If he finds out that's no one, they can get back to negotiating.

rebelfan1966
02-01-2013, 02:03 PM
I suspect they will work it out.... Basic rule of negotiation is for one side to start high, the other to start low, and then meet someplace in the middle.

TCHOF
02-01-2013, 02:06 PM
Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP (https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP)John Mara tells me he wants Victor Cruz back but won’t break the bank for him. Mara says his agent’s current demands are way too high.

Jenny Vrentas ‏@JennyVrentas (https://twitter.com/JennyVrentas)
Mara said Cruz "is a high priority, but he's not our only priority." Mara said they have a year -- they would tender him if no deal struck.


Yep. Just what I figured, Cruz probably wants top 5 receiver money, but the Giants don't want to pay him as such

No reason to pay him that kind of money this year. If you're going to pay him that much money, why not wait until next year?

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 02:09 PM
Giants co-owner John Mara said "right now" impending restricted free agent Victor Cruz is asking for too much money.
Mara added "there's a limit," and said "that's his agent" asking for too much money "right now," which is standard in negotiations at this point. Mara also said Cruz is a priority, but he isn't the "only" priority. He would have no qualms with slapping a first-round tender on Cruz, which would be a bargain at $2.879 million. Cruz played for $540,000 in 2012.

Source: Jenny Vrentas on Twitter


http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/football]


Hope this doesnt get ugly.

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 02:09 PM
just reading the title...oh no...

edit-phew, not as bad as the title made me think lol but def. not good imo. i agree OP, i really hope this doesnt turn ugly. Mara shouldnt be singling anyone out, from what is implied, Mara is saying the agent is not being fair or something. I believe Osi had to release his agent for the deal with us bc the FO had an issue with him too? I thought i remember reading that...

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 02:13 PM
Well the first bit of truth finally comes out. Not that we should be surprised. His agent is doing his job. he's looks at Cruz's stats, compares them to the rest of the WR's in the league, sees who he stacks up against, and asks for a contract that is relative to the market which has been set by his peers.

It negotiating 101, and it is exactly what we all should have expected.

njg85m
02-01-2013, 02:13 PM
Pretty much what a lot of people (including myself) figured all along, but didn't have actual specifics.

Well, here you go.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:13 PM
No reason to pay him that kind of money this year. If you're going to pay him that much money, why not wait until next year?

Becasue next year you will also have to deal with Nicks. If Cruz gets tendered this year, he won't be here beyond 2013. He may not be worth whatever he's asking for to the Giants, but he is sure worth more than $2.8M.

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 02:15 PM
just reading the title...oh no...

edit-phew, not as bad as the title made me think lol but def. not good imo. i agree OP, i really hope this doesnt turn ugly. Mara shouldnt be singling anyone out, from what is implied, Mara is saying the agent is not being fair or something. I believe Osi had to release his agent for the deal with us bc the FO had an issue with him too? I thought i remember reading that...

I am under the impression too much means 8-10 mil a year, as was reported from the beginning. However, not sure if Mara should be commenting on this. Last thing we need is another Jerry Jones on our hands. Let JR and his staff do their job.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:16 PM
just reading the title...oh no...

edit-phew, not as bad as the title made me think lol but def. not good imo. i agree OP, i really hope this doesnt turn ugly. Mara shouldnt be singling anyone out, from what is implied, Mara is saying the agent is not being fair or something. I believe Osi had to release his agent for the deal with us bc the FO had an issue with him too? I thought i remember reading that...

Why would it turn ugly? It's a business decision on both sides.

TCHOF
02-01-2013, 02:16 PM
Becasue next year you will also have to deal with Nicks. If Cruz gets tendered this year, he won't be here beyond 2013. He may not be worth whatever he's asking for to the Giants, but he is sure worth more than $2.8M.

I don't understand. You have to deal with Nicks next year whether you pony up top 5 WR money to Cruz this year or next.

The only reason to sign Cruz to a long term deal now is to get a discount (maybe a small one) off what you would have to pay him next year. If we're not getting a discount, there's no reason to pay him now.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 02:18 PM
looks like we were right..lol and we were getting flamed for a week for saying that he was prob asking for WAY too much money. Cruz is a good player, but hes not worth Calvin Johnson, or Larry Fitz money...hell i dont even think those guys are worth that money.

giantsfan420
02-01-2013, 02:20 PM
I am under the impression too much means 8-10 mil a year, as was reported from the beginning. However, not sure if Mara should be commenting on this. Last thing we need is another Jerry Jones on our hands. Let JR and his staff do their job. theres 0% chance imo Mara can even get in JJs ballpark in terms of being "that" kind of owner.
You very well could be right with the 8-10 mil a year point, the thing thats frustrating is the uncertainty. none of us will know until it gets done one way or the other ultimately. I do know there is a time limit with RFA bc of what happened with Mike Wallace of Pitt. Theres a cutoff day when the team cannot negotiate a long term contract anymore, so hopefully the deal gets done before then. Hopefully there wont be any division or like personal issues between both parties

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:23 PM
I don't understand. You have to deal with Nicks next year whether you pony up top 5 WR money to Cruz this year or next.

The only reason to sign Cruz to a long term deal now is to get a discount (maybe a small one) off what you would have to pay him next year. If we're not getting a discount, there's no reason to pay him now.

Cruz is entitled to fair compensation for his performance. The tender will give him $2.8M for 2013 when he becomes a UFA, as will Nicks. The CAP is not going to be appreciably higher than it is for 2013 and we still have the drag of other players restructures making money scarce.

If I am counseling Cruz the plan should be to keep going back and forth and see how close we get to the "don't cross this line" amount/terms. If they can't get there, Cruz will be tendered which I would consider a slap in the face, financially speaking. I would then use 2013 as the audition for UFA 2014. There are always issues you can't foresee such as injuries, lights out seasons, sub-par seasons, etc. But I'd be reluctant to re-sign with the Giants in 2014 if I believed they low balled me. The CAP is a problem, but his agents have a good idea what he's worth on the open market and are going to see how close the team gets to that amount.

There is plenty of time before this becomes do or die. No other teams can approach Cruz until March 12th.

If I were Reese, I'd try to get Hixon signed soon as a little added "psychlogical warfare." He isn't giong to demand too much and he's solid.

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 02:23 PM
looks like we were right..lol and we were getting flamed for a week for saying that he was prob asking for WAY too much money. Cruz is a good player, but hes not worth Calvin Johnson, or Larry Fitz money...hell i dont even think those guys are worth that money.

Look at his numbers over the past 2 years. Very comparable to top 5 WR's in the NFL. Is he worth 8-10mil? probably. Just dont thing we're willing to pay that kind of money...

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 02:26 PM
I am under the impression too much means 8-10 mil a year, as was reported from the beginning. However, not sure if Mara should be commenting on this. Last thing we need is another Jerry Jones on our hands. Let JR and his staff do their job.

Wouldn't shock me if his agent was asking for even more than that. Marshall is making around $9mil with the Bears back on a contract from 2010 so it could possibly be around $11-13 mil for the initial offer put out by the agent. A first round tender is looking more likely in the future folks.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Like I said. Giants put a limit on what they are willing to pay for Cruz. Cruz wants considerably more.

Razur
02-01-2013, 02:31 PM
I admittedly don't know a lot about the inner workings of professional football. I do know about contract negotiations. This is how it usually works. One side presents a proposal, the other side laughs out loud and says we can't give you the moon. The original proposer says well then we want the sun and the stars, and the other side say we'll consider the sun and half of the stars....... Each side knows going in the line they will not cross. When that point is reached by either side, sabres rattle.

It's a process, it takes time, they have time.

That describes my marriage of 30 years too !

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Like I said. Giants put a limit on what they are willing to pay for Cruz. Cruz wants considerably more.
So do I.
Doesn't mean either of us is getting it.
Its a process Slippy.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:32 PM
That describes my marriage of 30 years too !

It's all a negotiation lol

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:34 PM
It's all a negotiation lol
In my marraige its a different process.
I ask for something.
She doesn't think its necessary.
I whine.
She gives in.

My system works.

Razur
02-01-2013, 02:35 PM
It's all a negotiation lol

And a LOT of sabre rattling !!! Well..she rattles....I laugh...and then do what ever the hell she told me to do.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:36 PM
And a LOT of sabre rattling !!! Well..she rattles....I laugh...and then do what ever the hell she told me to do.

That sounds about right

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:37 PM
In my marraige its a different process.
I ask for something.
She doesn't think its necessary.
I whine.
She gives in.

My system works.

That is because you are so special :cool:

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:38 PM
So do I.
Doesn't mean either of us is getting it.
Its a process Slippy.

Yea. And Cruz will get tagged next season. And play under it. Then move on to some other team after that season.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 02:39 PM
Look at his numbers over the past 2 years. Very comparable to top 5 WR's in the NFL. Is he worth 8-10mil? probably. Just dont thing we're willing to pay that kind of money... I get what ur sayin...but people don't realize when a team pays a player that much money they don't have enough money to get other quality starters.

Larry Fitz Cards...team sucks with decent defense
Mario Williams...team sucks
Calvin Johnson....team is decent at best
Mike Vick 13.9 Mil....team sucks
Tambi Hali...14.5 Mil...team sucks
Phillip Rivers..15.3 Mil....team sucks
Sam Bradford 15.6 Mil...team sucks

and the list goes on and on....

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:41 PM
Yea. And Cruz will get tagged next season. And play under it. Then move on to some other team after that season.
I doubt it very much.
He will test the market (if they don't agree first). He won't get what he thinks he should. (because no one wants to pay him AND give up a 1st round pick) We will then do a deal. Its in his interest to do so. Careers can end in a heartbeat in the NFL and he knows it.

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 02:42 PM
Yea. And Cruz will get tagged next season. And play under it. Then move on to some other team after that season.

Cruz might take his talents to South Beach.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:43 PM
I doubt it very much.
He will test the market (if they don't agree first). He won't get what he thinks he should. (because no one wants to pay him AND give up a 1st round pick) We will then do a deal. Its in his interest to do so. Careers can end in a heartbeat in the NFL and he knows it.


It's possible. But it didn't work for the steelers with Wallace.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Wallace has no hands..he will burn the DB and be wide open for a TD and drop the ball

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:46 PM
I doubt it very much.
He will test the market (if they don't agree first). He won't get what he thinks he should. (because no one wants to pay him AND give up a 1st round pick) We will then do a deal. Its in his interest to do so. Careers can end in a heartbeat in the NFL and he knows it.

There is plenty of time to get a deal done. But, if a tender is placed, I agree with Slip as I can't see Cruz coming back in 2014 becasue he's going to lose an estimated (mine) $5M -10M in 2013. Like him, hate him, he is entitled to fair compensation.

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 02:50 PM
There is plenty of time to get a deal done. But, if a tender is placed, I agree with Slip as I can't see Cruz coming back in 2014 becasue he's going to lose an estimated (mine) $5M -10M in 2013. Like him, hate him, he is entitled to fair compensation.

That will also give us another year to evaluate Nicks to see if hes back to his old self before he hits the market. Don't see how we can possibly keep both cruz and nicks

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:50 PM
Wallace has no hands..he will burn the DB and be wide open for a TD and drop the ball

Cruz was like top 5 in dropped passes...

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:52 PM
That will also give us another year to evaluate Nicks to see if hes back to his old self before he hits the market. Don't see how we can possibly keep both cruz and nicks

They could. Most big contracts will be off the books in the coming years. Key is not over paying for any of them.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 02:52 PM
That will also give us another year to evaluate Nicks to see if hes back to his old self before he hits the market. Don't see how we can possibly keep both cruz and nicks

We can't and unless Nicks has a career ending injury or leaves for some other reason, Cruz will play his last game as a Giant in 2013 IF they apply and enforce the tender.

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 02:53 PM
Cruz was like top 5 in dropped passes...

lol the one thing they have in common. Very different receivers if you ask me.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 02:53 PM
It's possible. But it didn't work for the steelers with Wallace.
Wallace took a big risk in doing what he did. But your point is well taken.
I just think Cruz wants to be here and is posturing to get the best deal he can.
I also think that Mike Wallace should command more attention on the FA market then Cruz would. Wallace is getting paid because that kind of speed is rare. there is a lot more nuance to Cruz's game. He's not necessarily a great fit with a lot of teams. Wallace's game works anywhere.

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 02:53 PM
That will also give us another year to evaluate Nicks to see if hes back to his old self before he hits the market. Don't see how we can possibly keep both cruz and nicks

Randle is also our "insurance policy" in the event we lose one of the aforementioned receivers. We can survive the loss of either as long as Randle continues to show growth or we get more improvement out of our running game ala Wilson.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
Wallace took a big risk in doing what he did. But your point is taken.
I just think Cruz wants to be here and is posturing to get the best deal he can.
I also think that Mike Wallace should command more attention on the FA market then Cruz would. Wallace is getting paid because that kind of speed is rare. there is a lot more nuance to Cruz's game. He's not necessarily a great fit with a lot of teams. Wallace's game works anywhere.

It's also entirely possible that Cruz is waiting for Wallace to sign and then tries to use that contract as his guide. Either higher or lower than he is asking now.

Ruttiger711
02-01-2013, 02:56 PM
Look at his numbers over the past 2 years. Very comparable to top 5 WR's in the NFL. Is he worth 8-10mil? probably. Just dont thing we're willing to pay that kind of money...

His 2011 was top 5
His 2012 was top 15

That is probably the most basic way we can look at both sides of the negotiation with throwing in speculation.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 02:58 PM
lol the one thing they have in common. Very different receivers if you ask me.

they are very diff receivers. Cruz's problem is he is thinking about YAC..when Wallace will have no one in front of him and just drop it.

Eli TO Shockey
02-01-2013, 03:00 PM
they are very diff receivers. Cruz's problem is he is thinking about YAC..when Wallace will have no one in front of him and just drop it.

A drop is a drop. don't care how or what the conditions are or what you are thinking about when you do it. Both affect your team the same way.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 03:03 PM
A drop is a drop. don't care how or what the conditions are or what you are thinking about when you do it. Both affect your team the same way. ur right, but i see one as being more of a physical problem. IMO all Wallace has is speed

Ruttiger711
02-01-2013, 03:07 PM
ur right, but i see one as being more of a physical problem. IMO all Wallace has is speed

The guy can get over the top of anybody in the NFL - and you saw how he ran out from the backfield against the Giants. Hard to minimize that kind of speed.

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 03:13 PM
I'll take a player like Nicks or Cruz over him any day of the week and not think twice

njg85m
02-01-2013, 03:26 PM
Wallace took a big risk in doing what he did. But your point is well taken.
I just think Cruz wants to be here and is posturing to get the best deal he can.
I also think that Mike Wallace should command more attention on the FA market then Cruz would. Wallace is getting paid because that kind of speed is rare. there is a lot more nuance to Cruz's game. He's not necessarily a great fit with a lot of teams. Wallace's game works anywhere.

BINGO.
Morehead hit's the nail on the head here. It's not a diss on Cruz at all, but the fact remains that he excels in a certain kind of offense, and you can't transplant him just anywhere and expect the same success from him.

nhpgiantsfan
02-01-2013, 03:34 PM
BINGO.
Morehead hit's the nail on the head here. It's not a diss on Cruz at all, but the fact remains that he excels in a certain kind of offense, and you can't transplant him just anywhere and expect the same success from him.

While this may be true, it doesn't really matter. Somebody will give him stupid money, even if we don't.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 03:36 PM
While this may be true, it doesn't really matter. Somebody will give him stupid money, even if we don't.

It's the curse of the CAP

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 03:39 PM
We can't and unless Nicks has a career ending injury or leaves for some other reason, Cruz will play his last game as a Giant in 2013 IF they apply and enforce the tender.

Pardon, Monsieur, mais Je na sais pas ce "tender" signifie.

What is this tender business all about? I've never heard of it, what is it???

BuffyBlueII
02-01-2013, 03:40 PM
Can't really blame someone for getting as much as he can. I would love for us to sign Victor for a long contract and I hope we can do so. I just have a feeling that another team is going to pay him ridiculous money that we may not be able to match.

Antwuan
02-01-2013, 03:41 PM
http://www.giants101.com/2013/02/01/new-york-giants-owner-john-mara-says-team-wont-break-the-bank-for-victor-cruz/

Excerpt: "New York Giants wideout Victor Cruz is a restricted free agent this offseason. Given the great measure of success (both on and off the field) that Cruz has seen in Blue, it’s safe to assume that it’s in the best interest of both parties to make sure No. 80 is a Giant in 2013. Although both sides have remained optimistic in negotiations, there have been some recent rumblings that suggest contract negotiations are not going as smoothly as anticipated.

Yesterday, Cruz broke the news that there has been no recent movement in contract talks. Today, Bob Hubbuch of the New York Post reports that although Giants owner John Mara wants to bring Cruz back, he thinks that Cruz’s current demands are out of Big Blue’s price range. Furthermore, Mara says it would “safe to assume” that the team would place a high tender on Cruz in free agency.: Read more...

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 03:44 PM
Pardon, Monsieur, mais Je na connais pas quest-ce le "tender".

What is this tender business all about? I've never heard of it, what is it???

Restricted Free Agents (RFA) peut être: «appel d'offres» avec un choix au repêchage. Une fois que l'Agence commence gratuit, aucune autre équipe ne peut faire une offre pour le joueur si ils sont prêts à renoncer au Repêchage placé par le tgeam d'origine. Il le cas de la Cruz, qui sera probablement un appel d'offres le 1er tour.

Restricted Free Agents (RFA) can be :"tendered" with a draft pick. Once Free Agency Starts, any other team can make an offer to the player if they are willing to give up the draft pick placed by the original team. It the case of Cruz, that will likely be a 1st round tender

Kruunch
02-01-2013, 03:45 PM
I was nodding until ...


so there is no reason to break the bank on a player who might be the third-best wideout on the team in 2014

Cruz is, without a doubt, the best receiver on the Giants. I have not seen anything by Nicks or RR to disprove that.

Having said that, I agree that spending on a guy who can't handle a double team limits his usefulness (and thus, his price tag).

P.S. - Then again he was doubled all year long and still broke 1k.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 03:46 PM
Can't really blame someone for getting as much as he can. I would love for us to sign Victor for a long contract and I hope we can do so. I just have a feeling that another team is going to pay him ridiculous money that we may not be able to match.

There really is plenty of time to get a long term deal done. We are watching the sausage making process. The end result is what matters.

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 03:47 PM
merci, Lol.

I've been spending many a weekend in my parents homeland (Quebec) lately. I even dreamed in french last night (pretty ****in weird)

Wait so, wouldnt that apply to this offseason? Say the Patriots want him and they agree to give up a 1st rounder, they can then make him an offer? So wouldnt that mean he leaves and doesnt play for us in the 2013 season? How does this "tender" thing keep Cruz here at least one more year?

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 03:49 PM
As much as I love Cruz and think he is a great player, I do not want to see the Giants give him too much money. Nicks i8s the better receiver in my opinion, and you saw how the offense struggled without him at full strength. If Cruz wants too much and he ends up leaving, so be it. We will replace him some howYa we will live if he does leave. What is it with players these days thinking after 2 good years they deserve all this money.

Jahh
02-01-2013, 03:51 PM
I was nodding until ...



Cruz is, without a doubt, the best receiver on the Giants. I have not seen anything by Nicks or RR to disprove that.

Having said that, I agree that spending on a guy who can't handle a double team limits his usefulness (and thus, his price tag).

P.S. - Then again he was doubled all year long and still broke 1k.

I disagree. I think that slot position puts the receiver in favorable positions. I mean Steve Smith had 100 catches there and now Cruz has been dominate there. Its hard for me to believe we just stumbled on two outstanding WRs.

Antwuan
02-01-2013, 03:51 PM
Whoever wrote this article is reaching with Victor Cruz saying that he was a true #1 WR last season and that he might be the 3rd best WR on the Giants by 2014.

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Ya we will live if he does leave. What is it with players these days thinking after 2 good years they deserve all this money.

Seems like treason to us fans. Even I fall into the pit of "b-b-b-butt he loves the Giants...doesn't he??"

In reality, just about everyone would take 15mil more dollars to play on another team, in a different city. Would you pass up over 10mil just to be seen as "loyal" to your team?

RF: Still wondering how this works. See question in my previous post

BuffyBlueII
02-01-2013, 03:55 PM
I was nodding until ...Cruz is, without a doubt, the best receiver on the Giants. I have not seen anything by Nicks or RR to disprove that.Having said that, I agree that spending on a guy who can't handle a double team limits his usefulness (and thus, his price tag).P.S. - Then again he was doubled all year long and still broke 1k.Third had me shaking my head too. I think Hakeem Nicks is the better receiver although think Victor is a close second. The thing that hurt us a lot this year wasn't having Mario on the team to stretch defenses and we really missed him. I wonder if Harbaugh in signing MM did it as much to deracinate our offense as to improve his.Victor didn't have an average season for a WR in 2012, he had an average season for a great wide receiver.

DVision
02-01-2013, 03:58 PM
Whoever wrote this article is reaching with Victor Cruz saying that he was a true #1 WR last season and that he might be the 3rd best WR on the Giants by 2014.

"Although he’s a talented wide receiver, he proved this season that he’s not a true No. 1 wide receiver."

I think you read it wrong.

DVision
02-01-2013, 03:59 PM
I was nodding until ...



Cruz is, without a doubt, the best receiver on the Giants. I have not seen anything by Nicks or RR to disprove that.

Having said that, I agree that spending on a guy who can't handle a double team limits his usefulness (and thus, his price tag).

P.S. - Then again he was doubled all year long and still broke 1k.

Cruz has proven to be more durable, but I'd say Hakeem is the best receiver the Giants have.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 04:02 PM
Seems like treason to us fans. Even I fall into the pit of "b-b-b-butt he loves the Giants...doesn't he??"In reality, just about everyone would take 15mil more dollars to play on another team, in a different city. Would you pass up over 10mil just to be seen as "loyal" to your team?RF: Still wondering how this works. See question in my previous postThat depends if it was guaranteed money or incentive based. I've seen what happens to good wr's that go to a team with a ****ty qb.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:03 PM
merci, Lol.

I've been spending many a weekend in my parents homeland (Quebec) lately. I even dreamed in french last night (pretty ****in weird)

Wait so, wouldnt that apply to this offseason? Say the Patriots want him and they agree to give up a 1st rounder, they can then make him an offer? So wouldnt that mean he leaves and doesnt play for us in the 2013 season? How does this "tender" thing keep Cruz here at least one more year?


Oui, but whatever offer is made by another team, the Giants can match if they elect to do so or let him go and get an additional 1st round pick. That rarely happens, but it could. A first round tender only pays $2.8M. Not matter what one thinks of Cruz, he's worth significant;y more than that. A team who needs a receiving play maker and has lots of CAP space, might just out offer the Giants.

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 04:04 PM
Undoubtedly, when healthy, Nicks is the best WR on the team.

Cruz choses his fate over the coming months.

Option 1: Quick cash, short career (leaves my beloved Gmen)

Option2: Decent, long-term money and an extended, potential HOF ballot career.

Think im BS'ing you...? See: Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Jeremy Shockey, Ballard(TBD). And lets see if Mario stays as productive. History is already written for Cruz, he just decides which path to take from here on out; the choice is his.

JPP=BEASTMODE
02-01-2013, 04:06 PM
Undoubtedly, when healthy, Nicks is the best WR on the team.Cruz choses his fate over the coming months.Option 1: Quick cash, short career (leaves my beloved Gmen)Option2: Decent, long-term money and an extended, potential HOF ballot career.Think im BS'ing you...? See: Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Jeremy Shockey, Ballard(TBD). And lets see if Mario stays as productive. History is already written for Cruz, he just decides which path to take from here on out; the choice is his.+1

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:07 PM
Undoubtedly, when healthy, Nicks is the best WR on the team.

Cruz choses his fate over the coming months.

Option 1: Quick cash, short career (leaves my beloved Gmen)

Option2: Decent, long-term money and an extended, potential HOF ballot career.

Think im BS'ing you...? See: Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Jeremy Shockey, Ballard(TBD). And lets see if Mario stays as productive. History is already written for Cruz, he just decides which path to take from here on out; the choice is his.


Cruz only has an option IF another team offers him the bank and gives up a first round pick. At this moment in time, he's not been tendered which would indicate there is still a negotiation in process. They could also tender him and continue to negotiate.

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 04:07 PM
I will not be upset either way.

If option 1 happens....Good for us. I'm glad we stood strong. I can't wait to see how good Randle is, if Jernigan will turn the corner, and just how elite Nicks really is. Also would be excited about seeing Adrien Robinson. Excited for a lot of reasons, Cruz leaving is kind of a classic "prove what we are made of" Giants moment.

If option 2 happen....Good for us. I'm glas Cruz decided to stay and our Nicks-Cruz-Randle offense will be underway. Lets see just how good this can really be. No complaints.

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 04:09 PM
Cruz only has an option IF another team offers him the back and gives up a first round pick. At this moment in time, he's not been tendered which would indicate there is still a negotiation in process. They could also tender him and continue to negotiate.

I think there is a 70% chance he stays for 2013. Yet, due to the fact that we MUST keep Nicks, I'd say only a 40-50% chance he is here in 2014.

I can't believe I'm saying this because all along, I think the majority of us (well over 80%) believed that Cruz-Nicks would both be locked-up, long-term players for us. Well, the reality of business is here folks. Looks like that might just be what it was: A belief. A dream (still may come true, who knows).

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 04:13 PM
Just pay da man!

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throwing-money-away.gif

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:14 PM
I think there is a 70% chance he stays for 2013. Yet, due to the fact that we MUST keep Nicks, I'd say only a 40-50% chance he is here in 2014.

I can't believe I'm saying this because all along, I think the majority of us (well over 80%) believed that Cruz-Nicks would both be locked-up, long-term players for us. Well, the reality of business is here folks. Looks like that might just be what it was: A dream.

Cruz is probably more like 90% probable to be here for 2013 UNLESS some obscene $$$ is laid in front of him in a long term package with significant guaranteed money. He also doesn't want to go to a team farther away from contending than the Giants.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:15 PM
Just pay da man!

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throwing-money-away.gif

You Little Rascal

CowboysSuck
02-01-2013, 04:20 PM
those are some big dollars. they look like whole sheets of paper lol

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:21 PM
those are some big dollars. they look like whole sheets of paper lol

Euros

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 04:24 PM
I think there is a 70% chance he stays for 2013.

Its way higher than 70%. A team has to give him a huge contract and give the giants a first round pick if they want him, and the giants would have the opportunity to match the contract he is offered.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 04:25 PM
Its way higher than 70%. A team has to give him a huge contract and give the giants a first round pick if they want him, and the giants would have the opportunity to match the contract he is offered.
Yeah..Its more like 95%.

jomo
02-01-2013, 04:30 PM
EurosGreek bonds lol.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:30 PM
Greek bonds lol.

May as well be wampum

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 04:30 PM
Yeah..Its more like 95%.

As an added bonus, the redskins are not able to offer him a contract.

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 04:31 PM
Yeah..Its more like 95%.

Agreed. Megatron is probably the only receiver a team would be willing to dish out a 1st rounder so easily on. Cruz is good but not THAT good imo.

jomo
02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
Agreed. Megatron is probably the only receiver a team would be willing to dish out a 1st rounder so easily on. Cruz is good but not THAT good imo.He is excellent but not really in the top 5. I would think that every team knows that including the Giants. Now Cruz agent may tell him he's a top 5 receiver but maybe Cruz is smarter than that.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:35 PM
He is excellent but not really in the top 5. I would think that every team knows that including the Giants. Now Cruz agent may tell him he's a top 5 receiver but maybe Cruz is smarter than that.

I still think it's nothing more than negotiating strategy on both sides

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 04:36 PM
May as well be wampum
The only currency worth less than the Greek drachma had a picture of Jeff Davis on it.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 04:40 PM
The only currency worth less than the Greek drachma had a picture of Jeff Davis on it.

Thems fighting words in these here parts

jomo
02-01-2013, 04:40 PM
I still think it's nothing more than negotiating strategy on both sidesI agree with that. Cruz should be able to get a market level contract from us AND remain in the media capital of the world as he prepares for life after the NFL. For a guy like Cruz that should be worth alot.

Morehead State
02-01-2013, 04:44 PM
Thems fighting words in these here parts

Oops! Sorry.

BlueBlooded1979
02-01-2013, 04:50 PM
This guy is nothing like his father. What kind of pinhead comes out to the media and says a player is "asking for too much money"? There is no positive outcome result of saying something stupid like that. Does he think Cruz and his agent will come down if he makes him look greedy in the media ?

Not only is it tactically ******ed it is utterly classless behavior that Jerrah or Woody would pull. This is the franchise that doesn't have cheerleaders or a mascot but now it is ok to talk about player contracts in the media.

I agree with setting a number for Cruz and not going beyond that. Reese has the unenviable job of negotiating these contacts with guys who think they should all be the highest paid players in the league. I don't agree with Mara lite spouting off about it in the media and making JRs job tougher.

Cloud57
02-01-2013, 04:54 PM
when did he say that?

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 04:55 PM
Link?

JesseJames
02-01-2013, 04:55 PM
when did he say that?its in the media today on Redzone

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 04:56 PM
anyone with half a brain knew cruz was asking for too much money.

Nothing wrong with what Mara said.

PBTimmons
02-01-2013, 05:09 PM
anyone with half a brain knew cruz was asking for too much money.

Nothing wrong with what Mara said.

Mara is still one of the classiest owners. Not to be confused with JJones or Snyder. Cruz's proposal must have been heinous for Reese to immediately table discussion and for Mara to even comment on it.

Cruz is likely asking 10+ per year, Pure speculation, but it HAS to be something astronomical for all this hoopla.

GameTime
02-01-2013, 05:12 PM
pinhead??
classless??

wow.....chill out. He just said the number was too high. So what

DVision
02-01-2013, 05:15 PM
All he said was he won't break the bank for 1 player. What's wrong with that?

TheEnigma
02-01-2013, 05:18 PM
Cruz is likely asking 10+ per year, Pure speculation, but it HAS to be something astronomical for all this hoopla.

Probably spot on. His agent probably gave an initial offer between 10+ and Megatron/Fitzgerald money. I highly doubt that's the lowest they will take though. My uneducated guess would be 9 to 11 a year for 5+ years and 15-20 guaranteed. Who knows though.

JesseJames
02-01-2013, 05:21 PM
I'm surprised that Mara even said anything about Cruz's contract negotiations to the media, those things are usually not mentioned while these things are going on...

egyptian420
02-01-2013, 05:31 PM
I'm surprised that Mara even said anything about Cruz's contract negotiations to the media, those things are usually not mentioned while these things are going on...Agreed, if someone asked me if I think Mara would discuss particular players' contracts to the media I would have said no, so it is surprising.

That being said however, I don't think it's classless or that he's a "pinhead", I would be lying if I said I expected him to say that though.

Roosevelt
02-01-2013, 05:34 PM
I was surprised to hear Mara say that publicly but I don't have a problem with it. It was going to come out eventually.

slipknottin
02-01-2013, 05:36 PM
He didnt really say anything either.

If Cruz wasent asking for more than the giants were willing to pay, he would already be signed.

Flip Empty
02-01-2013, 05:38 PM
Yep he messed up there, he shouldn't have said anything.


Links:


@JennyVrentas: (https://twitter.com/JennyVrentas/status/297412753956675584)
John Mara hopes a deal can be worked out with Cruz but says "there's a limit." Asked if Cruz is asking for too much, Mara says "right now."

John Mara: Cruz asking for too much money right now (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/01/john-mara-cruz-asking-for-too-much-money-right-now/)

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 05:40 PM
Mara can say anything he wants. Don't like it oh well.

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 05:41 PM
anyone with half a brain knew cruz was asking for too much money.

Nothing wrong with what Mara said.I agree with you on that one.

ozzie0075
02-01-2013, 05:48 PM
Its a negotiation. Cruz wants more than the Giants want to pay. Just hopefully it gets done soon or we could see a long hold out.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 05:52 PM
I agree with that. Cruz should be able to get a market level contract from us AND remain in the media capital of the world as he prepares for life after the NFL. For a guy like Cruz that should be worth alot.

He needs a respectable offer

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 05:58 PM
This guy is nothing like his father. What kind of pinhead comes out to the media and says a player is "asking for too much money"? There is no positive outcome result of saying something stupid like that. Does he think Cruz and his agent will come down if he makes him look greedy in the media ?

Not only is it tactically ******ed it is utterly classless behavior that Jerrah or Woody would pull. This is the franchise that doesn't have cheerleaders or a mascot but now it is ok to talk about player contracts in the media.

I agree with setting a number for Cruz and not going beyond that. Reese has the unenviable job of negotiating these contacts with guys who think they should all be the highest paid players in the league. I don't agree with Mara lite spouting off about it in the media and making JRs job tougher.

It's called negotiating strategy. Cruz has spoken publicly about it and now Mara has responded. Neither is discussing details other than to say "we made an offer" and "it's too high."

I have to ask what cheerleaders and a mascot have to do with any of this?

DownWitJPP
02-01-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm not surprised at all that Mara addressed this today after Cruz came out and said yesterday that there has been no progress on the contract. Also this is John Mara's team, and his money..the guy can say whatever he wants

Ruttiger711
02-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Besides Mara put it on the agent as asking for too much... he kept Cruz out of the statement.

bigjeep
02-01-2013, 06:12 PM
I admittedly don't know a lot about the inner workings of professional football. I do know about contract negotiations. This is how it usually works. One side presents a proposal, the other side laughs out loud and says we can't give you the moon. The original proposer says well then we want the sun and the stars, and the other side say we'll consider the sun and half of the stars....... Each side knows going in the line they will not cross. When that point is reached by either side, sabres rattle.

It's a process, it takes time, they have time.

Its all about the money! If he doesn't get it from the Giants, he will move on!

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:13 PM
Its all about the money! If he doesn't get it from the Giants, he will move on!

No doubt

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:16 PM
Link?

Post 187

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:20 PM
I'm not surprised at all that Mara addressed this today after Cruz came out and said yesterday that there has been no progress on the contract. Also this is John Mara's team, and his money..the guy can say whatever he wants

It's his team, but not his money. The players' salaries are completely covered by TV contracts

Diamondring
02-01-2013, 06:27 PM
I'm not surprised at all that Mara addressed this today after Cruz came out and said yesterday that there has been no progress on the contract. Also this is John Mara's team, and his money..the guy can say whatever he wantsRight right.

Rudyy
02-01-2013, 06:39 PM
Does that mean we draft a WR in the 1st? Or do we ride with Nicks/Randle/Hixon/Jernigan?

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:42 PM
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2013/02/john_mara_says_there_is_a_limi.html

Excerpt: ""We certainly want him back, but like with any player, there's a limit to where we’re going to go," Mara said today. "He's been a terrific player for us, he’s a fan favorite, he does a lot for our franchise, but there is a limit."

Mara made clear that there is a limit with any player, because of the salary cap and needs elsewhere on the roster. But it sounds like there is a financial disconnect between the sides, even though during the season Cruz was open about the ongoing negotiations and said there was a "structure" in place for a new contract.

Asked if Cruz's asking price is unreasonable, Mara said, "Well, right now, but that’s his agent. But that’s what agents do, and we’ve got a lot of time to work something out, and hopefully we’ll be able to come together."

Mara said "we have a year to get that worked out." Cruz has played three NFL seasons and is a restricted free agent, so the Giants could tender him to hold onto him in the short-term while they continue to work on a long-term deal." Read more...

The highlighted phrase is very telling in terms of the team's position. They are willing to negotiate until they have to tender but after they put the tender in place, they are clearly willing to continue to negotiate. That's about as fair a process as he's going to get. Whether they come to a meeting of the financial minds is still to be determined, but the Giants are clearly looking at keeping Cruz if they can or Mara would not have said they have a year to get it done.

Of course that doesn't mean Cruz has to wait, but it's more to his advantage to do that than not, unless he get s freakishly lucrative offer from a team that is going to be in the hunt in 2013.

RoanokeFan
02-01-2013, 06:46 PM
Another Cruz thread? :(

It's not likely we'll lose him for 2013, if at all

Carter.525
02-01-2013, 06:50 PM
Another Cruz thread? :(

It's not likely we'll lose him for 2013, if at all

bingo