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jakegibbs
12-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Very interesting article thanks for posting it on the message board. TC you got to admit it is a tough old bird for better or worse.

The argument for Tom Must Not Go was there for all to see in The Battle of New York. And in the final few minutes, after he had nearly been kneecapped by D.J. Ware, a telling scene unfolded.

The Fox television cameras showed vice president of Medical Services Ronnie Barnes and team physician Dr. Russell Warren attempting to examine an agitated Coughlin, standing on a barking, 65-year-old hamstring by the bench and refusing to take his eyes off the playing field. Then “No Toughness, No Championship” Tom limped back to his team.

“He’s not exactly the ideal patient, is he?” Giants vice president of Communications Pat Hanlon said to the medical men.

The inmates must never run anyone’s asylum. But Eli Manning wants Coughlin back, and there is widespread respect for Coughlin among key veterans.

A Miracle of the Meadowlands III could prompt ownership, which has a history of erring on the side of stability, to decide that choking away another season is unacceptable. That someone should have to pay a price for a 2-6 second half, and it is time for a new voice and younger blood on the sidelines. But Coughlin didn’t have any Dream Team, Andy Reid did. And Reid’s Eagles have nothing to play for now.

The Tom Must Go crowd would emphasize the Giants could not secure a playoff berth even with Manning enjoying a career season.

The Tom Must Not Go crowd would counter while there is no crying in football, you try winning a division after you lose your best cornerback, your middle linebacker, your left tackle, one of your premier pass rushers, your starting running back for a month, your center for three weeks, your tight end for The Battle of New York, and a diminished defensive captain for most of the season.

And the Giants are still standing. As Kings of New York. Coughlin never blinked. So I ask the players: Will you blink?

Tony Bruno
12-26-2011, 11:56 AM
KG has to go... Eli knows NFL good enough that installing a new plays is probably far out... He knows cobverages and schemes... I think the OC calls bad games and I think we owe it to the team to try another OC... We have made those changes with the D numerous times and found a winner but let him go...

jakegibbs
12-26-2011, 12:00 PM
KG has to go... Eli knows NFL good enough that installing a new plays is probably far out... He knows cobverages and schemes... I think the OC calls bad games and I think we owe it to the team to try another OC... We have made those changes with the D numerous times and found a winner but let him go...

You may have to fire TC to get rid of KG. TC seems to be really loyal to his coaches & players. I would have started Boothe over Baas but TC loyalty to players had him go right back with Bass.

Don't be suprised if Osi gets healthy enough to play that he doesn't start over JPP.

zimonami
12-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Very interesting article thanks for posting it on the message board. TC you got to admit it is a tough old bird for better or worse.

The argument for Tom Must Not Go was there for all to see in The Battle of New York. And in the final few minutes, after he had nearly been kneecapped by D.J. Ware, a telling scene unfolded.

The Fox television cameras showed vice president of Medical Services Ronnie Barnes and team physician Dr. Russell Warren attempting to examine an agitated Coughlin, standing on a barking, 65-year-old hamstring by the bench and refusing to take his eyes off the playing field. Then “No Toughness, No Championship” Tom limped back to his team.

“He’s not exactly the ideal patient, is he?” Giants vice president of Communications Pat Hanlon said to the medical men.

The inmates must never run anyone’s asylum. But Eli Manning wants Coughlin back, and there is widespread respect for Coughlin among key veterans.

A Miracle of the Meadowlands III could prompt ownership, which has a history of erring on the side of stability, to decide that choking away another season is unacceptable. That someone should have to pay a price for a 2-6 second half, and it is time for a new voice and younger blood on the sidelines. But Coughlin didn’t have any Dream Team, Andy Reid did. And Reid’s Eagles have nothing to play for now.

The Tom Must Go crowd would emphasize the Giants could not secure a playoff berth even with Manning enjoying a career season.

The Tom Must Not Go crowd would counter while there is no crying in football, you try winning a division after you lose your best cornerback, your middle linebacker, your left tackle, one of your premier pass rushers, your starting running back for a month, your center for three weeks, your tight end for The Battle of New York, and a diminished defensive captain for most of the season.

And the Giants are still standing. As Kings of New York. Coughlin never blinked. So I ask the players: Will you blink?
I've always liked TC, but I also think Fewell and Gilbride must go, and TC will not let either go, much less both of them.

Husky
12-26-2011, 12:08 PM
Stay. It's his job to get them in a position to win. If the players fail to execute, it's on them. The team was picked to finish 3rd or 4th in the division, but here we are on the final week of the season and are in a position to win it, without any help from outside.

RoanokeFan
12-26-2011, 12:09 PM
KG has to go... Eli knows NFL good enough that installing a new plays is probably far out... He knows cobverages and schemes... I think the OC calls bad games and I think we owe it to the team to try another OC... We have made those changes with the D numerous times and found a winner but let him go...

You may have to fire TC to get rid of KG. TC seems to be really loyal to his coaches & players. I would have started Boothe over Baas but TC loyalty to players had him go right back with Bass.

Don't be suprised if Osi gets healthy enough to play that he doesn't start over JPP.

I don't think Gilbride is as wedded to TC as he is to Eli. Eli is comfortable in Gilbride's offense and they seem to complement each other. If anything/anyone is tied to Gilbride, I think it's Eli.

FishinTheSalt
12-26-2011, 12:14 PM
Gilbride and Fewell have to go, if only one I say Fewell because he is hurting the team more and I am no supporter of either. Gilby just doesn't seem to put forward the effort for every game, but it's difficult to say if it's him or Eli when things don't go right. Still, Fewell has no ability to make in game adjustments.</P>

brad
12-26-2011, 12:21 PM
Changes have to be made, if Coughlin isn't willing to make changes in his staff then someone has to make them for him. I understand losing due to injury and I can accept that. What I can't accept is the lack of urgency and desire this team exhibited on more than one occasion this season.

bearbryant
12-26-2011, 12:30 PM
TC had a run, its not working anymore, need a new philosophy and scheming brought on board. the only way you'll accomplish this is by starting at the top and working down. Coaches who need to be released: TC, KG, PF and oh yes lets not forget quinn. Good for starters

fletch842
12-26-2011, 12:32 PM
I don't think the final chapter to this novel has been written yet. Let's see how the team comes out on Sunday. They play well, like last week, or against the Packers, and he stays. They lay an egg like against the Redskins or Seahawks, gone. Somewhere in-between, and it's a tougher decision, but I think unless they play a really good game on Sunday (notice I am not saying win), the coaching staff will turn over.

NYfanatic
12-26-2011, 12:33 PM
Tom must go. Inexcusable why this team comes out flat to some games. That falls on the HC. Fire all three of the goons win or lose.

brad
12-26-2011, 12:34 PM
I don't think the final chapter to this novel has been written yet. Let's see how the team comes out on Sunday. They play well, like last week, or against the Packers, and he stays. They lay an egg like against the Redskins or Seahawks, gone. Somewhere in-between, and it's a tougher decision, but I think unless they play a really good game on Sunday (notice I am not saying win), the coaching staff will turn over.

I seriously doubt that Coughlin is gone either way, but I agree that this is how it should be.

FishinTheSalt
12-26-2011, 12:36 PM
Tom must go. Inexcusable why this team comes out flat to some games. That falls on the HC. Fire all three of the goons win or lose.
</P>


Tell us how you really feel...</P>


</P>


Though I kinda agree</P>

jakegibbs
12-26-2011, 02:04 PM
KG has to go... Eli knows NFL good enough that installing a new plays is probably far out... He knows cobverages and schemes... I think the OC calls bad games and I think we owe it to the team to try another OC... We have made those changes with the D numerous times and found a winner but let him go...

You may have to fire TC to get rid of KG. TC seems to be really loyal to his coaches & players. I would have started Boothe over Baas but TC loyalty to players had him go right back with Bass.

Don't be suprised if Osi gets healthy enough to play that he doesn't start over JPP.

I don't think Gilbride is as wedded to TC as he is to Eli.* Eli is comfortable in Gilbride's offense and they seem to complement each other.* If anything/anyone is tied to Gilbride, I think it's Eli.


You've made a good point. I lived in the Houston area when KG was OC under Waren Moon. Eli & Waren are very simular players.

Both had good in the pocket skills & love to throw the deep 20+ yd passes. Both QB's uses the audible a lot to go to either a run or pass play.

KG had an even more wide open offense with Waren called the run & shoot w 3/4 WR most of the time & 1 RB - no full back but it's also a read & react to what the defense is aligned in for play calling. I'd bet Eli has at least 3 plays he can go to on each snap depending on the pre-snap read of the defense.

Middle pressure is the one thing that really hurts a KG offense you have to keep the middle blocked.

BlueReign
12-26-2011, 02:23 PM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).

chasjay
12-26-2011, 02:40 PM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.

gumby742
12-26-2011, 02:52 PM
Stay.* It's his job to get them in a position to win.* If the players fail to execute, it's on them.* The team was picked to finish 3rd or 4th in the division, but here we are on the final week of the season and are in a position to win it, without any help from outside.***


I can be coach then. After all, what it boils down to is execution is't it?

After a while, enough is enough. Short of a strong playoff showing where our team finally shows some heart, TC needs to go. This is also assuming we can get an already established quality coach in his place

brad
12-26-2011, 03:15 PM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).


I agree with this.. however his strength is also his weakness. The option routes can kill a drive if the QB and WR aren't on the same page, and that is what we see quite often with this offense. The receiver going one way and Eli expecting him to go another. The end result is an incompletion at best and an INT at worst.

Eli TO Shockey
12-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).


I agree with this.. however his strength is also his weakness. The option routes can kill a drive if the QB and WR aren't on the same page, and that is what we see quite often with this offense. The receiver going one way and Eli expecting him to go another. The end result is an incompletion at best and an INT at worst.

his arrogance is what will eventually lead to his demise. pass the ball when you have 1st and goal on the 2?? really? I can find example after example of how his arrogance screws us over. Overall, he is not a bad o-coordinator, just situational play calling that leaves u scratching your head and yelling at the TV.

For those who say TC is loyal to his coordinators. what happened to tim lewis and bill sheridan? TC will do what it takes to save his own ***. first and foremost.

Perry Fewell has to go..ESPECIALLY, if Spags coming back is an option.

SweetZombieJesus
12-27-2011, 09:02 AM
I will ask even the most ardent TC supporter to put loyalty and emotion aside for a moment and consider these facts:

<ul> Collapses in 7 out of 8 seasons Duds in big games with playoff implications or in the playoffs (2005 vs Carolina, 2008 vs Eagles, 2009 vs Panthers in last game at Giants Stadium, 2010 collapse vs Eagles and the following week's no-show vs Green Bay) 30-42 Nov/Dec record Never won a home playoff game Three first-round playoff exits, two of them in hall-of-shame fashion. Four DCs and already talk of a 5th
[/list]


</p>

Now, if you were in the front office and in charge of evaluating someone's performance, those facts weigh pretty heavily.
</p>

SweetZombieJesus
12-27-2011, 09:12 AM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team. To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem. Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games. Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers. 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles. 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers. 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose. It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them. That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes. They don't know, they just have no answers. They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins. In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row. Sound familiar? 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits. Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.

Tony Bruno
12-27-2011, 10:17 AM
KG has to go... Eli knows NFL good enough that installing a new plays is probably far out... He knows cobverages and schemes... I think the OC calls bad games and I think we owe it to the team to try another OC... We have made those changes with the D numerous times and found a winner but let him go...

You may have to fire TC to get rid of KG. TC seems to be really loyal to his coaches & players. I would have started Boothe over Baas but TC loyalty to players had him go right back with Bass.

Don't be suprised if Osi gets healthy enough to play that he doesn't start over JPP.

I don't think Gilbride is as wedded to TC as he is to Eli.* Eli is comfortable in Gilbride's offense and they seem to complement each other.* If anything/anyone is tied to Gilbride, I think it's Eli.


As time goes on I think I agree with you... TC is just doing what a HC would do and thats keep the continuity... That being said Eli should be able to run an O with any OC with the amount of time he has been in the NFL...

Coach Carter
12-27-2011, 10:42 AM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).


I agree with this.. however his strength is also his weakness. The option routes can kill a drive if the QB and WR aren't on the same page, and that is what we see quite often with this offense. The receiver going one way and Eli expecting him to go another. The end result is an incompletion at best and an INT at worst.

his arrogance is what will eventually lead to his demise. pass the ball when you have 1st and goal on the 2?? really? I can find example after example of how his arrogance screws us over. Overall, he is not a bad o-coordinator, just situational play calling that leaves u scratching your head and yelling at the TV.

For those who say TC is loyal to his coordinators. what happened to tim lewis and bill sheridan? TC will do what it takes to save his own ***. first and foremost.

Perry Fewell has to go..ESPECIALLY, if Spags coming back is an option.



Thank you, it is arrogance, Gilbride feels he could outsmart the other coach when all is needed is a simple but bruising running play. Gilbride does not have a feel for football, a run, as simple as it is, is the most demoralizing and energy-zapping play to a defense. Yet Gilbride has these grand offensive schemes he wants to execute instead of just handing off the ball. He needs to stop with the designed outside runs, our TEs can't block and the running backs will automatically cut the run outside if it is blocked.

Coach Carter
12-27-2011, 10:44 AM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team. To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem. Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games. Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers. 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles. 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers. 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose. It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them. That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes. They don't know, they just have no answers. They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins. In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row. Sound familiar? 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits. Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.


Well said and great comparison.

jakegibbs
12-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).


I agree with this.. however his strength is also his weakness. The option routes can kill a drive if the QB and WR aren't on the same page, and that is what we see quite often with this offense. The receiver going one way and Eli expecting him to go another. The end result is an incompletion at best and an INT at worst.

his arrogance is what will eventually* lead to his demise. pass the ball when you have 1st and goal on the 2?? really? I can find example after example of how his arrogance screws us over.* Overall, he is not a bad o-coordinator, just situational play calling that leaves u scratching your head and yelling at the TV.

For those who say TC is loyal to his coordinators. what happened to tim lewis and bill sheridan? TC will do what it takes to save his own ***. first and foremost.

Perry Fewell has to go..ESPECIALLY, if Spags coming back is an option.



Thank you, it is arrogance, Gilbride feels he could outsmart the other coach when all is needed is a simple but bruising running play. Gilbride does not have a feel for football, a run, as simple as it is, is the most demoralizing and energy-zapping play to a defense. Yet Gilbride has these grand offensive schemes he wants to execute instead of just handing off the ball. He needs to stop with the designed outside runs, our TEs can't block and the running backs will automatically cut the run outside if it is blocked.


Not so fast what did you call the 2 TD's that Bradshaw made against the Jets .... pass plays? No they were between guard tackle runs to daylight.

T-Murda84
12-27-2011, 10:57 AM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team.* To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.*

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem.* Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games.* Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers.* 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles.* 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers.* 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.*
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose.* It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them.* That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes.* They don't know, they just have no answers.* They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins.* In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row.* Sound familiar?* 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits.* Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.


U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes. Eli Manning has come a long way Now but before then Manning struggled in the latter part of the season early in his career. He always had trouble throwing the ball in old Giants Stadium in winter-like conditions...and this is a FACT! The collaspe in 2010 was all the Defenses fault...but when ur 2 season removed from having leaders like Pierce and Strahan and ur GM fails to replace those leaders...of course we are going to have collaspes.

I think Coughlin and his staff should stay. I wuld give Reese the boot, and find a GM that is going to rework contracts of the free agents busts and at least give us some cap space to improve the team. I think we made this team worse in the offseason...it was because of our coaching staff that got young undrafted players like Cruz and Ballard ready 4 the season.

Coach Carter
12-27-2011, 11:06 AM
Gilbride has a great offensive mind. Now before you jump on that statement hear me out; he draws up some of the best plays in the NFL. He may not always call the right plays at the right times, but he can sure put together route combinations that account for multiple coverages (options).


I agree with this.. however his strength is also his weakness. The option routes can kill a drive if the QB and WR aren't on the same page, and that is what we see quite often with this offense. The receiver going one way and Eli expecting him to go another. The end result is an incompletion at best and an INT at worst.

his arrogance is what will eventually lead to his demise. pass the ball when you have 1st and goal on the 2?? really? I can find example after example of how his arrogance screws us over. Overall, he is not a bad o-coordinator, just situational play calling that leaves u scratching your head and yelling at the TV.

For those who say TC is loyal to his coordinators. what happened to tim lewis and bill sheridan? TC will do what it takes to save his own ***. first and foremost.

Perry Fewell has to go..ESPECIALLY, if Spags coming back is an option.



Thank you, it is arrogance, Gilbride feels he could outsmart the other coach when all is needed is a simple but bruising running play. Gilbride does not have a feel for football, a run, as simple as it is, is the most demoralizing and energy-zapping play to a defense. Yet Gilbride has these grand offensive schemes he wants to execute instead of just handing off the ball. He needs to stop with the designed outside runs, our TEs can't block and the running backs will automatically cut the run outside if it is blocked.


Not so fast what did you call the 2 TD's that Bradshaw made against the Jets .... pass plays? No they were between guard tackle runs to daylight.

Stop being a narrow minded fool, how many times did the Giants run in the first half? If Sanchez had made better decisions, the Giants would have lost the game. Eli was 9 for 27, yet the Giants were able to run the ball vs the Jets. Gilbride is a passing fool.

bronxvgiant
12-27-2011, 11:42 AM
If we dont win 2 playoff games Coughlin needs to go.And take Fewell and Gilbride with him.

dave8274
12-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Barring a long playoff run, I think it's time for both TC and Reese to go this offseason.

BurnerNYG
12-27-2011, 12:22 PM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team.* To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.*

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem.* Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games.* Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers.* 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles.* 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers.* 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.*
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose.* It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them.* That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes.* They don't know, they just have no answers.* They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins.* In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row.* Sound familiar?* 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits.* Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.


U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes. Eli Manning has come a long way Now but before then Manning struggled in the latter part of the season early in his career. He always had trouble throwing the ball in old Giants Stadium in winter-like conditions...and this is a FACT! The collaspe in 2010 was all the Defenses fault...but when ur 2 season removed from having leaders like Pierce and Strahan and ur GM fails to replace those leaders...of course we are going to have collaspes.

I think Coughlin and his staff should stay. I wuld give Reese the boot, and find a GM that is going to rework contracts of the free agents busts and at least give us some cap space to improve the team. I think we made this team worse in the offseason...it was because of our coaching staff that got young undrafted players like Cruz and Ballard ready 4 the season.Lol, next you'll be blaming Reese for Global warming and the economy. How the hell does he supposed to know if the guys he draft or bring in are gonna develop into leaders or not? What is he psychic?

Now as far as losing our own guys, the way I see it... when you have a plethora of talent like we've had over the years, of course you're gonna get yourself into trouble with the CAP.

Let's be real too... Rolle and Canty were hot commodities in the free agent pool and in order to get the services of players like that, you're more than likely gonna have to pay top dollar... it's a crap shoot if they pan out.

Also, judging by Cruz's preseason last year, we all knew the potential he had as a player. Pierce was undrafted too, Tom Brady got drafted way late, Alex Smith went number 1 overall while Rodgers sat on the board til almost 2nd round, Sam Bowie got drafted before Jordan(lol). The so called experts aren't the experts that you think they are.

JJC7301
12-27-2011, 12:34 PM
I really like Coughlin, but it's not just about this year. The 2nd-half mediocrity has just been too consistent. To be fair, that fact that this team will even finish at least 8-8 in 2011 is astonishing considering the killer injuries they suffered. And in any other year, except for 2010, 10-6 would have gotten a team into the playoffs.</P>


You know, I've been bashing the coaches (in particular Fewell) but I could live with them getting 1 more shot. Thisyears injuries, plus inability to make moves because of sudden capissues...the year could have been a lot worse, and yes, they collapsed against the Eagles in 2010, butthey would havemade the playoffs at 10-6 in any other year. </P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-27-2011, 12:41 PM
U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes.

Yes, you can, and in fact, you have to. Not saying all, but he takes the brunt of it.

One, it's the coach's job to keep the team focused and on target.

Two, he's just about the only piece that hasn't changed.

The team has collapsed in 7 out of 8 years. It has collapsed when Eli was a struggling young rookie and it has collapsed when he was an MVP-quality veteran. It has collapsed when there was leadership on defense and when there was less or no leadership on defense. It has collapsed with Ernie Accorsie as the GM, it has collapsed with Jerry Reese as GM. It has collapsed with Wellington Mara and Bob Tisch, it has collapsed with John Mara and Steve Tisch. It has collapsed under two different Offensive Coordinators and four different Defensive Coordinators. There have been several generations of player turnover in many positions. There are not many players left from the inaugural collapse of 2004. But the result is the same.

T-Murda84
12-27-2011, 12:48 PM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team.* To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.*

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem.* Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games.* Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers.* 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles.* 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers.* 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.*
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose.* It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them.* That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes.* They don't know, they just have no answers.* They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins.* In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row.* Sound familiar?* 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits.* Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.


U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes. Eli Manning has come a long way Now but before then Manning struggled in the latter part of the season early in his career. He always had trouble throwing the ball in old Giants Stadium in winter-like conditions...and this is a FACT! The collaspe in 2010 was all the Defenses fault...but when ur 2 season removed from having leaders like Pierce and Strahan and ur GM fails to replace those leaders...of course we are going to have collaspes.

I think Coughlin and his staff should stay. I wuld give Reese the boot, and find a GM that is going to rework contracts of the free agents busts and at least give us some cap space to improve the team. I think we made this team worse in the offseason...it was because of our coaching staff that got young undrafted players like Cruz and Ballard ready 4 the season.Lol, next you'll be blaming Reese for Global warming and the economy. How the hell does he supposed to know if the guys he draft or bring in are gonna develop into leaders or not? What is he psychic?

Now as far as losing our own guys, the way I see it... when you have a plethora of talent like we've had over the years, of course you're gonna get yourself into trouble with the CAP.

Let's be real too... Rolle and Canty were hot commodities in the free agent pool and in order to get the services of players like that, you're more than likely gonna have to pay top dollar... it's a crap shoot if they pan out.

Also, judging by Cruz's preseason last year, we all knew the potential he had as a player. Pierce was undrafted too, Tom Brady got drafted way late, Alex Smith went number 1 overall while Rodgers sat on the board til almost 2nd round, Sam Bowie got drafted before Jordan(lol). The so called experts aren't the experts that you think they are.

The NFL is set up pretty similar to a real life work place. Doesnt the NFL set up interviews with rookie or have dinner with free agents to discus contracts and interviews. Even during the draft process...rookies are interviewed to set if their focus is on football. For example, Ryan Leaf's interview he talked about how he was going to party after he got drafted while Peyton Manning was anxious to know the start of training camp and actually had his own questions to see if the Colts would do everything in its power to become a winning franchise. THE NFL DRAFT PROCESS AND FREE AGENT MARKET IS NOT LUCK!!! THIS IS WHY WE HAD SCOUTS AROUND THE CLOCK EVAULATING THESE ATHLETES ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. The experts are very good at what they do....they evaluta guys off their physical ability, the problem with some of these athletes is their love for football diminishes because of money and that the NFL turns into a job. Pierce slipped because he was undersize, but played with a chip on his shoulder....the major part of his game was the mental understanding of the game just like Tom Brady has a natural feel for the game. Tom Brady only slipped because Michigan had alot of talent QBs at the time. Drew Henson was supppose to be the next big thing, but he loved baseball more than football.

SweetZombieJesus
12-27-2011, 12:51 PM
You know, I've been bashing the coaches (in particular Fewell) but I could live with them getting 1 more shot. Thisyears injuries, plus inability to make moves because of sudden capissues...the year could have been a lot worse, and yes, they collapsed against the Eagles in 2010, butthey would havemade the playoffs at 10-6 in any other year. </p>

I hear you, but you're being too compassionate.

Failing the same way 7 times in 8 years isn't good enough, you need to see 8 times in 9 years before you're convinced? Another year of inexplicable duds against garbage like Vince Young and Charlie Whitehurst and Gross Rexman?

As for 2010 and being 10-6 and not making the playoffs, they were 7:30 away from winning the division and blew a second chance the following week against Green Bay (which also would have knocked them out of the playoffs). They made their own bad luck when they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory against the Eagles and then sleepwalked the following week in Green Bay. Do you really think if they got a 3rd chance that season and gotten into the playoffs at 10-6 something good would have happened?

JJC7301
12-27-2011, 01:05 PM
You know, I've been bashing the coaches (in particular Fewell) but I could live with them getting 1 more shot. Thisyears injuries, plus inability to make moves because of sudden capissues...the year could have been a lot worse, and yes, they collapsed against the Eagles in 2010, butthey would havemade the playoffs at 10-6 in any other year. </P>




I hear you, but you're being too compassionate.

Failing the same way 7 times in 8 years isn't good enough, you need to see 8 times in 9 years before you're convinced? Another year of inexplicable duds against garbage like Vince Young and Charlie Whitehurst and Gross Rexman?

As for 2010 and being 10-6 and not making the playoffs, they were 7:30 away from winning the division and blew a second chance the following week against Green Bay (which also would have knocked them out of the playoffs). They made their own bad luck when they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory against the Eagles and then sleepwalked the following week in Green Bay. Do you really think if they got a 3rd chance that season and gotten into the playoffs at 10-6 something good would have happened?
</P>


I know and you're probably right. But I like TC's old-school no BS mentality. He was criticized by his lazy, unproductiveFassel-type players when he first came on board, and now, the only coach that most of these guys know is TC. They buy into his stuff. If they beat Dallas and go into the playoffs, I gotta give him one more year and with the same coordinators if TC so chooses. </P>

BurnerNYG
12-27-2011, 01:06 PM
For those that feel Tom C. should go, are there definite faults you can identify that another coach would correct, or do you just feel a change is in order because of the late-season slides or his choices of coordinators? I don't support change for the sake of change when you are competitive year after year. But if there are concrete reasons, that could take us from competitive to dominant, I'd go along.


My problem with Tom is the inability to identify and fix the problem that is OBVIOUSLY effecting this team.* To start 5-2 every year and collapse every year, 7 out of 8, there is obviously some dynamic going on.*

Fine that it happens, but it's the coach's job to identify and fix the problem.* Which he doesn't seem capable of doing.

Same with the no-shows in big games.* Let me walk you down memory lane.

2005 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Panthers.* 23-0
2008 -- opening round of the playoffs, at home, vs. Eagles.* 23-11
2009 -- last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line, vs. Panthers.* 41-9.
2010 -- 7:30 left to an NFC-East title and playoff spot, give up 28 points to Eagles.*
2010 -- following week at Green Bay with playoffs still on the line, 45-17.

It's one thing to fight hard and lose.* It's another thing entirely to not even show up, or in the case of the 2010 Eagles game, have the franchise's worst collapse in team history.


These two problems (late season collapses and no-shows in big games) are glaring and repeating, and Tom Coughlin simply has no answers for them.* That's why it's time to bring in someone else to take a shot at fixing what Tom cannot.

Every year during these collapses or after a no-show, we get the same stone-faced shoulder shrugging and excuses and platitudes.* They don't know, they just have no answers.* They don't know how to fix these two problems, they just sort of hope they go away on their own.

I always make the analogy to Joe Torre and his downward slide from the 2003 WS, an embarassing no-show against the mighty Marlins.* In 2004 he allowed the franchise's worst collapse against their arch-rivals, having them down 3-0 in the ALCS and losing 4 games in a row.* Sound familiar?* 2005, 2006, and 2007 saw strong regular seasons and no-show first round playoff exits.* Sound familiar?

Sometimes something that while good just isn't working anymore and you need to part ways.


U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes. Eli Manning has come a long way Now but before then Manning struggled in the latter part of the season early in his career. He always had trouble throwing the ball in old Giants Stadium in winter-like conditions...and this is a FACT! The collaspe in 2010 was all the Defenses fault...but when ur 2 season removed from having leaders like Pierce and Strahan and ur GM fails to replace those leaders...of course we are going to have collaspes.

I think Coughlin and his staff should stay. I wuld give Reese the boot, and find a GM that is going to rework contracts of the free agents busts and at least give us some cap space to improve the team. I think we made this team worse in the offseason...it was because of our coaching staff that got young undrafted players like Cruz and Ballard ready 4 the season.Lol, next you'll be blaming Reese for Global warming and the economy. How the hell does he supposed to know if the guys he draft or bring in are gonna develop into leaders or not? What is he psychic?

Now as far as losing our own guys, the way I see it... when you have a plethora of talent like we've had over the years, of course you're gonna get yourself into trouble with the CAP.

Let's be real too... Rolle and Canty were hot commodities in the free agent pool and in order to get the services of players like that, you're more than likely gonna have to pay top dollar... it's a crap shoot if they pan out.

Also, judging by Cruz's preseason last year, we all knew the potential he had as a player. Pierce was undrafted too, Tom Brady got drafted way late, Alex Smith went number 1 overall while Rodgers sat on the board til almost 2nd round, Sam Bowie got drafted before Jordan(lol). The so called experts aren't the experts that you think they are.

The NFL is set up pretty similar to a real life work place. Doesnt the NFL set up interviews with rookie or have dinner with free agents to discus contracts and interviews. Even during the draft process...rookies are interviewed to set if their focus is on football. For example, Ryan Leaf's interview he talked about how he was going to party after he got drafted while Peyton Manning was anxious to know the start of training camp and actually had his own questions to see if the Colts would do everything in its power to become a winning franchise. THE NFL DRAFT PROCESS AND FREE AGENT MARKET IS NOT LUCK!!! THIS IS WHY WE HAD SCOUTS AROUND THE CLOCK EVAULATING THESE ATHLETES ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. The experts are very good at what they do....they evaluta guys off their physical ability, the problem with some of these athletes is their love for football diminishes because of money and that the NFL turns into a job. Pierce slipped because he was undersize, but played with a chip on his shoulder....the major part of his game was the mental understanding of the game just like Tom Brady has a natural feel for the game. Tom Brady only slipped because Michigan had alot of talent QBs at the time. Drew Henson was supppose to be the next big thing, but he loved baseball more than football.I hear what you're saying and I actually agree with most of your points but what a person will never see in an interview is a player's heart. Talk is cheap and of course you're gonna say the right things to get the job. Do you think some random person would go into an interview and tell the boss that they like getting high and drinking hard liquor before and after work?

Also, some people mature and develop into leaders. A person can be just as silly as a rabbit at 22 but in 10 years that very same person might be the leader of your lockeroom.

TheReal_LT
12-27-2011, 02:03 PM
If we beat Dallas and make the playoffs I think Tom should go because of the consitent 2nd half collapses and not making the post season 3 yrs in a row. With that being said who would they bring in? Cowher, Gruden, ? The problem is I don't think that the front office will make a change for change sake. They will make a change only if they feel they have a good fit. The only way that an org usually makes a change for change sake is if a team really bottoms out and the players no longer hear the voice of the head coach.

NYG 5
12-27-2011, 06:09 PM
I think, after a good defensive peroformance, a a generally good, tough performance by most of the team after the rebound from the redskins debacle has saved him for now.

The next game will decide his fate, and even if they win to play a playoff game or two, he must answer for an apparent below average staff and bad crops of mediocre players and premadonnas.

I think he will be safe for another year, but I wish he would get some younger/better coordinators and staff. If its one thing Fassel could do, it was find some good coaches. Fox, Payton, even Jason Garrett come back to the Fassel tree.

Coach Carter
12-27-2011, 06:18 PM
U cant pin all the blame on Coughlin for the late season collaspes.

Yes, you can, and in fact, you have to. Not saying all, but he takes the brunt of it.

One, it's the coach's job to keep the team focused and on target.

Two, he's just about the only piece that hasn't changed.

The team has collapsed in 7 out of 8 years. It has collapsed when Eli was a struggling young rookie and it has collapsed when he was an MVP-quality veteran. It has collapsed when there was leadership on defense and when there was less or no leadership on defense. It has collapsed with Ernie Accorsie as the GM, it has collapsed with Jerry Reese as GM. It has collapsed with Wellington Mara and Bob Tisch, it has collapsed with John Mara and Steve Tisch. It has collapsed under two different Offensive Coordinators and four different Defensive Coordinators. There have been several generations of player turnover in many positions. There are not many players left from the inaugural collapse of 2004. But the result is the same.


Excellent points. There were many variables during the collapses but Coughlin was the one constant.