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View Full Version : Is the Cruz magic gone for good? 2nd yr. stats take major tumble...



GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:19 PM
While the Victor Cruz hype machine has been well established, the decline of some important stats in his second year are reasons why no one is throwing cash at the player.

Overall receptions, yards
2011: 82, 1536
2012: 86, 1092

Dropped passes:
2011: not in bottom 20 positions*
2012:... Tied for 2nd worst with 10**


* https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/ -but Mario Manningham showed up there
** http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


Even when Cruz broke away for amazing touchdowns in 2011, it was only good for 6th place in YAC. But in 2012, the slot receiver's numbers YAC were almost an embarrassment.

Total yards after catch rank
2011: 6th place, 603 yards, 7.4 yard avg.
2012: 40th place, 329 yards, 3.8 avg.***

*** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2011/
**** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2012/



By contrast, the best slot receiver received $6 million for each of the next two years. Welker's total YAC stats:

Wes Welker
2011: 1st place, 751 yds., 6.2 avg
2012: 1st place, 719 yds., 6.1 avg


The question still remains, is Victor's best year behind him or has he yet to reach his potential? In that very question is the answer that most would shy away from giving a player a salary on a par with the best receivers, let alone slot receivers in the game.

Are fans victims of the soup commercials, the salsa dancing hype? I think so. The Victor Cruz myth is greater than the reality, until proven otherwise in the coming years.

That's why when the dust settles, my prediction is a $5.5 million/season three year deal at most, in a cap friendly first year scenario.

shane4177
03-14-2013, 01:22 PM
In defense though, Victor last year was getting extra attention from the opposing defense. I have never seen Welker get additional coverage outside of man....

BlueSanta
03-14-2013, 01:22 PM
Defenses are paying more attention to him and were able to do so this year because of Nicks being banged up.

Cruz is still young and productive.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Oh my God, seriously?

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:25 PM
In defense though, Victor last year was getting extra attention from the opposing defense. I have never seen Welker get additional coverage outside of man....

Victor did get extra attention, but Welker has been pretty much unstoppable no matter what scheme was thrown up against the Pats' offense. We haven't seen that kind of 3rd down consistent reliability yet from Cruz.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 01:26 PM
The only flaw in his game is dropped passes and he's not that fast.

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:26 PM
Oh my God, seriously?

If you are an NFL G.M., yes seriously you are looking at these numbers before breaking the bank AND giving up a first rounder. You are wondering if Cruz can be a great player when he is getting serious attention from defenses.

jomo
03-14-2013, 01:27 PM
I think you look past one year, which while very good was not as dynamic as year #1. Many things beyond Cruz can have something to do with that including our cometition last year and the performance of the rest of the team. The fact that Nicks missed more last year than the previous year which allowed defenses to give Cruz more attention etc.

He did show some tentativeness last year (especially after the Pittsburgh game) which I did not see in the first year. Again it could just be part of the maturing process. The coaches who scour the tape have a much better handle on this than I ever could.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 01:28 PM
Also, you are putting WAY too much emphasis on YAC and petty things like that. What about 1200+ yards and 10 touchdowns? That's productive as hell. His stats as of now are better than A.J Greens.

G-Men Surg.
03-14-2013, 01:28 PM
You are thinking so hard bud !
I think the Giants have enough sample size to make a fair judgement of what Cruz game is and the value of him going forward.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 01:29 PM
If you are an NFL G.M., yes seriously you are looking at these numbers before breaking the bank.You are wondering if Cruz can be a great player when he is getting serious attention from defenses.The reason why he isn't getting those huge numbers is because defenses know what he can do to them if he is single covered..he's not a big guy either, so he can't just go jump up and grab balls.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 01:30 PM
This can't be ignored - it's not like his play went down for a few games - it was the last 12 games he's been on the field.

This high water mark, the one that he set for himself in 2011 in practically 14 games no less is the magic Cruz that many people say is the player he IS.

His last 12 games he was on the field, he was averaging 4.5 catches a game and under 60yds a game. Them's Amendola numbers. ....and telling the story of Cruz's last 12 games are not hating on him.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Agreed Cruz sucks.

Wonder what Roy Williams is doing these days? :rolleyes:

StrahanSoup92
03-14-2013, 01:31 PM
Defenses are paying more attention to him and were able to do so this year because of Nicks being banged up.

Cruz is still young and productive.

Ditto.

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:31 PM
The reason why he isn't getting those huge numbers is because defenses know what he can do to them if he is single covered..he's not a big guy either, so he can't just go jump up and grab balls.

Agreed. And my response to that is: $6 million for the best of them who has always been relied upon.

G-Men Surg.
03-14-2013, 01:33 PM
Defenses are paying more attention to him and were able to do so this year because of Nicks being banged up.

Cruz is still young and productive.
This . And his homerun playmaking ability is natural.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 01:35 PM
If Cruz needs a #1 to take coverage away from him to succeed why should he be paid like a #1?

FishinTheSalt
03-14-2013, 01:35 PM
yes all other teams should read this article and pass on cruz. I will gladly keep our declining youngster.

TheEnigma
03-14-2013, 01:38 PM
He was the beneficiary of being an unknown commodity (well he had the 2010 preseason game but he wasn't going to warrant extra attention based off of that) and having very little tape to study so DCs could properly account for him and how to address his threats. 2012 is more in line with what to expect out of Cruz production wise because he is no longer a secret and teams now know what they have to do to contain him from breaking out so many large plays. The offense should be fine overall as long as Nicks and Cruz are drawing a large amount of attention and a 3rd player steps up to exploit the defense.

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:39 PM
yes all other teams should read this article and pass on cruz. I will gladly keep our declining youngster.

They don't need to read this post. That's the point. They are reading the same stats and more to determine the value of Cruz and every other player.

My point being: relax. Cruz will be a Giant next year. He is overhyped here, and the Giant organization also knows this.

WiIdcat
03-14-2013, 01:41 PM
no. Cruz is an elite talent. Of course he got more attention this year because 1. teams know he's legit and 2. Hakeem was hurt so they didn't have to worry about him. That's double the attention to Cruz and he still had 1000 yards.

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 01:42 PM
no. Cruz is an elite talent. Of course he got more attention this year because 1. teams know he's legit and 2. Hakeem was hurt so they didn't have to worry about him. That's double the attention to Cruz and he still had 1000 yards.

Do you think Wes Welker received no attention in each of the last two years in which he was a first down machine and first in total YAC? That value was worth $6 million on the open market and no first round draft choice in compensation!

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 01:44 PM
I guess I just look at it differently.

NorwoodBlue
03-14-2013, 01:48 PM
There's no question Cruz faded badly near the end of the year. He had some very bad games. I don't think Cruz was any less of a player; I think that Nicks was demanding far less coverage when he was hurt, and Cruz is not the type of receiver who's going to beat double coverage consistently. I think as long as there's a big gun on the field with him like Nicks, he will get open well enough. I think there's no question that other teams saw those 3 for 21, 3 for 34, etc games and lowered their value on Cruz. He definitely did not look like a premier receiver those games. He kind of had an Osi type of year where he padded his stats in some games, and totally disappeared in others. If Nicks is healthy next year, Cruz should have a more consistent output than he did this year.

Giants5699
03-14-2013, 01:50 PM
I thought he was great last year.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 01:51 PM
While the Victor Cruz hype machine has been well established, the decline of some important stats in his second year are reasons why no one is throwing cash at the player.

Overall receptions, yards
2011: 82, 1536
2012: 86, 1092

Dropped passes:
2011: not in bottom 20 positions*
2012:... Tied for 2nd worst with 10**


* https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/ -but Mario Manningham showed up there
** http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


Even when Cruz broke away for amazing touchdowns in 2011, it was only good for 6th place in YAC. But in 2012, the slot receiver's numbers YAC were almost an embarrassment.

Total yards after catch rank
2011: 6th place, 603 yards, 7.4 yard avg.
2012: 40th place, 329 yards, 3.8 avg.***

*** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2011/
**** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2012/



By contrast, the best slot receiver received $6 million for each of the next two years. Welker's total YAC stats:

Wes Welker
2011: 1st place, 751 yds., 6.2 avg
2012: 1st place, 719 yds., 6.1 avg


The question still remains, is Victor's best year behind him or has he yet to reach his potential? In that very question is the answer that most would shy away from giving a player a salary on a par with the best receivers, let alone slot receivers in the game.

Are fans victims of the soup commercials, the salsa dancing hype? I think so. The Victor Cruz myth is greater than the reality, until proven otherwise in the coming years.

That's why when the dust settles, my prediction is a $5.5 million/season three year deal at most, in a cap friendly first year scenario.

WOW. The reason offers are not coming in right now is because no teams can talk to him until he has his agent in place.

What did Eli have to do with the receivers' poor season?

Zaggs
03-14-2013, 01:53 PM
Well when you saw how he got so many yards 2 seasons ago I don't think 1000+ yards in receiving is a "tumble". Yes 500+ yards lost, but 99 of those 500 yards were on one play the year before. My problem was more the drops he had this past year. I don't have a problem with Cruz except that he shouldn't be paid as a #1.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 01:54 PM
This need to rip players apart when there is even a hint that they might leave is truly mind boggling.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:01 PM
Do you think Wes Welker received no attention in each of the last two years in which he was a first down machine and first in total YAC? That value was worth $6 million on the open market and no first round draft choice in compensation!

He also turned down a more lucrative offer so he could go to Denver and get his entire contract guaranteed.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:04 PM
This need to rip players apart when there is even a hint that they might leave is truly mind boggling.

This thread is beyond mind boggling.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:09 PM
This thread is beyond mind boggling.

It's like when Smith went to the Eagles and was being call a "traitor" and worse.

embeshAtYa
03-14-2013, 02:10 PM
The only flaw in his game is dropped passes and he's not that fast.



Heís always just has that game speed. Even if he runs a 4.5 40. This isnít track and field. Itís football. On the field Cruz is very fast. Nobody on the jets or cowboys could catch him!

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:10 PM
It's like when Smith went to the Eagles and was being call a "traitor" and worse.

Lol remember the hate when Parcells went to Dallas? :o

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:15 PM
He’s always just has that game speed. Even if he runs a 4.5 40. This isn’t track and field. It’s football. On the field Cruz is very fast. Nobody on the jets or cowboys could catch him!

I think it's more his ability to change direction on the fly which is sometimes a negative when he takes that peek to see who's where.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:17 PM
Lol remember the hate when Parcells went to Dallas? :o

It is the "loyalty" issue but that's only an issue to fans.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:19 PM
It is the "loyalty" issue but that's only an issue to fans.

Well "fan" is short for "fanatic".

Can't fault the peeps for living up to their monicker. :cool:

Toadofsteel
03-14-2013, 02:21 PM
Lol remember the hate when Parcells went to Dallas? :o

Wasn't that big of a deal for me since he stopped at the jets and pats along the way. It's not like he bolted out of here directly for Dallas. The damage had already been done when he up and left in 1993... that was a decade before he signed with Dallas.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:22 PM
Well "fan" is short for "fanatic".

Can't fault the peeps for living up to their monicker. :cool:

True enough

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:23 PM
Heís always just has that game speed. Even if he runs a 4.5 40. This isnít track and field. Itís football. On the field Cruz is very fast. Nobody on the jets or cowboys could catch him!I never said he was slow..

Shockeystays08
03-14-2013, 02:25 PM
While the Victor Cruz hype machine has been well established, the decline of some important stats in his second year are reasons why no one is throwing cash at the player.

Overall receptions, yards
2011: 82, 1536
2012: 86, 1092

Dropped passes:
2011: not in bottom 20 positions*
2012:... Tied for 2nd worst with 10**


* https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/ -but Mario Manningham showed up there
** http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


Even when Cruz broke away for amazing touchdowns in 2011, it was only good for 6th place in YAC. But in 2012, the slot receiver's numbers YAC were almost an embarrassment.

Total yards after catch rank
2011: 6th place, 603 yards, 7.4 yard avg.
2012: 40th place, 329 yards, 3.8 avg.***

*** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2011/
**** http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2012/



By contrast, the best slot receiver received $6 million for each of the next two years. Welker's total YAC stats:

Wes Welker
2011: 1st place, 751 yds., 6.2 avg
2012: 1st place, 719 yds., 6.1 avg


The question still remains, is Victor's best year behind him or has he yet to reach his potential? In that very question is the answer that most would shy away from giving a player a salary on a par with the best receivers, let alone slot receivers in the game.

Are fans victims of the soup commercials, the salsa dancing hype? I think so. The Victor Cruz myth is greater than the reality, until proven otherwise in the coming years.

That's why when the dust settles, my prediction is a $5.5 million/season three year deal at most, in a cap friendly first year scenario.

Good work! Cruz is a good player! I don't by into the great or top 5 stuff. He had a great first year but once teams learned about him his numbers fell and I don't see another year one performance in him. To many drops, looked a bit gun shy to often weak YAC numbers and he seems to want to much $$$$. Honestly I'm hoping he goes and we get an additional #1 and Jernigan get's his shot. Jernigan haters are what they are and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I like the kids speed, moves and competitive do anything mindset!

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:26 PM
Good work! Cruz is a good player! I don't by into the great or top 5 stuff. He had a great first year but once teams learned about him his numbers fell and I don't see another year one performance in him. To many drops, looked a bit gun shy to often weak YAC numbers and he seems to want to much $$$$. Honestly I'm hoping he goes and we get an additional #1 and Jernigan get's his shot. Jernigan haters are what they are and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I like the kids speed, moves and competitive do anything mindset!

All the attributes Cruz doesn't have?

DVision
03-14-2013, 02:26 PM
I thought it was already established months ago that a lack of threat opposite Cruz resulted in his decline in production. A healthy Nicks makes a big difference.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:27 PM
I thought it was already established months ago that a lack of threat opposite Cruz resulted in his decline in production. A healthy Nicks makes a big difference.

How about Eli having a pretty bad season?

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:29 PM
Wasn't that big of a deal for me since he stopped at the jets and pats along the way. It's not like he bolted out of here directly for Dallas. The damage had already been done when he up and left in 1993... that was a decade before he signed with Dallas.

Well that and you were how old when he went to Dallas?

Friggin boards went absolutely ballistic at the time.

I know that's what finally soured me on him (in that fan type of way).

ImElectric2
03-14-2013, 02:29 PM
Sometimes, when I feel I'm going to lose something great, I use statistics to dilude myself into.thinking the loss really isn't that bad.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:29 PM
How about Eli having a pretty bad season?Eli has nothing to do with Cruz dropping passes, to be fair.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:30 PM
I thought it was already established months ago that a lack of threat opposite Cruz resulted in his decline in production. A healthy Nicks makes a big difference.

Well of course.

Cruz was doubled all season and he STILL had 86 receptions, 1000+ yards and 10 TDs. A receiver that can do that while being doubled 24/7 is the definition of #1 receiver.

How the OP misses this fact, is beyond me.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Eli has nothing to do with Cruz dropping passes, to be fair.

Not all but some.

Rememember, a dropped pass is considered anything that touches the receivers hands.

Toadofsteel
03-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Well that and you were how old when he went to Dallas?

Friggin boards went absolutely ballistic at the time.

I know that's what finally soured me on him (in that fan type of way).

14... obviously wasn't on the boards back then. I wasn't alive for much of Parcells' reign, so I wasn't really directly soured by it (more annoyed at Dallas for picking up a good coach). The only analogue I can feel is imagining if TC ended up in Dallas..

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:32 PM
The OP is putting emphasis on YAC and what not..but ignores overall production.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:33 PM
Eli has nothing to do with Cruz dropping passes, to be fair.

I wasn't talking about his drops, which are clearly a problem, but Eli was not throwing the ball as well as he can and might that have had amn effect in all of the receiver's production?

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:33 PM
I wasn't talking about his drops, which are clearly a problem, but Eli was not throwing the ball as well as he can and m?ight that have had amn effect in all of the receiver's productionMaybe, but so is drawing double coverage..which he did draw.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:34 PM
14... obviously wasn't on the boards back then. I wasn't alive for much of Parcells' reign, so I wasn't really directly soured by it (more annoyed at Dallas for picking up a good coach). The only analogue I can feel is imagining if TC ended up in Dallas..

If TC ended up in Dallas, he'd have to be a hostage. :cool:

Buddy333
03-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Hard to as him to have the same season he did the year before. Those big YAC plays he had last year where not he norm. The numbers he put up with a QB not at his best and the teams other star WR hurting where not bad.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:35 PM
If TC ended up in Dallas, he'd have to be a hostage. :cool:

Would be fun watching him do the Spaztic Leprechaun all over JJ. :D

Toadofsteel
03-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Well of course.

Cruz was doubled all season and he STILL had 86 receptions, 1000+ yards and 10 TDs. A receiver that can do that while being doubled 24/7 is the definition of #1 receiver.

How the OP misses this fact, is beyond me.

This is one of the issues creating problems for our cap numbers... we've got two true #1 wideouts on our roster. That's about half as bad as having two starting QBs on the roster... most of the time you try to trade one to beef up a poorer position in the draft, like SF did, and NE a couple of times (Bledsoe, Cassel)...

NYGfanSTRICK
03-14-2013, 02:36 PM
The drop off was almost guaranteed... If we would have improved off of those numbers in 2011 with all the attention he got people would have been saying he is top 3 WR in the league hands down. He had a lot of crazy, I am scared to say lucky but very fortunate plays in 2011. The tip ball one hander vs Seattle I believe. The freak plays vs the eagles. The monster play off of a basic out that he got outside vs the jets and took it to the house. Everyone was doubling Hakeem that year and he was making the most of the 1 vs 1 play. Then when the playoffs hit everyone was doubling Cruz and Nicks went off... I think he will be just fine. The only thing that was a little strange was the drops. In 2011 it seriously seemed like he caught anything in his path. 2012 he tried to make those type of plays happen before he caught the ball causing him to take his eye off the ball resulting in many of his drops. Most were in the beginning of the year and then he got back to being a solid pass catcher for the most part the rest of the season.

To ask the question is his magic done is kind of a fair question. It was almost magic what he did in 2011. It was unreal looking at some of the plays he made. He was on the top 10 it seemed every other week. I think he came back to reality a bit with the teams realizing that he is a legit WR and needs attention. Now if we can get Cruz and Nicks clicking on all cylinders with Randle coming in too making plays then we will be shredding teams defenses IMO

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:37 PM
Maybe, but so is drawing double coverage..which he did draw.

My point is this. Eli has a bad season and it's the line, Nicks is injured, we have no running game, and on and on. Cruz has a season with 500 less yards than 1,500 and he's now over the hill and there couldn't possibly be any other factors than he is in decline.

nycsportzfan
03-14-2013, 02:39 PM
i think cruz is gonna get paid more then hes worth personally.. He had 2dyanmite yrs, but as said, his production tailed off last yr, and this would be the yr i would say will tell us what kinda WR Cruz is.. Hes awesome regardless, but break the bank good? I think one more yr would be needed to see that..

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:40 PM
This is one of the issues creating problems for our cap numbers... we've got two true #1 wideouts on our roster. That's about half as bad as having two starting QBs on the roster... most of the time you try to trade one to beef up a poorer position in the draft, like SF did, and NE a couple of times (Bledsoe, Cassel)...

Yeah that's the problem with the current WR contracts. Pretty much ensures you cannot afford to have two #1 quality receivers past the same contract.

Which I guess means the cap is working as intended.

I'm in the minority camp that I'd rather have Cruz than Nicks. He's more reliable when doubled and isn't nearly hurt so much (and he took some huge licks this year).

shane4177
03-14-2013, 02:40 PM
Ok honestly how many WRs in this league are consistently successful with double coverage? How many? Megatron, ok yeah. Can Fitz do it, all day, everyday? Cruz did well for a second year facing extra attention from opposing defenses. To say he has declined, and will never have another "break out" type year is absurd, and an insult to all our collective intelligences!

BlueBlooded1979
03-14-2013, 02:40 PM
I thought it was already established months ago that a lack of threat opposite Cruz resulted in his decline in production. A healthy Nicks makes a big difference.

That is probably a part of it but in 2011 Cruz caught the ball and ran with it. In 2012 he caught the ball, danced a bit and was tackled. If he needs a #1 WR diverting attention to be great than he isn't a #1 WR and shouldn't be paid like one. Big time WR make huge plays regardless of who is covering them.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:43 PM
i think cruz is gonna get paid more then hes worth personally.. He had 2dyanmite yrs, but as said, his production tailed off last yr, and this would be the yr i would say will tell us what kinda WR Cruz is.. Hes awesome regardless, but break the bank good? I think one more yr would be needed to see that..

If he has a +1,200 yard year in 2013 with the Giants, he won't (and shouldn't) take less than $10M+ per year (and probably closer to $12M is he has the YAC year he had in 2011).

If I'm the Giants, I'm offering him $8M/year now and feeling like I got off lucky if he accepts.

(but then again I empty garbage cans for a living so what do I know)

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:43 PM
My point is this. Eli as a bad season and it's the line, Nicks is injured, we have no running game, and on and on. Cruz has a season with 500 less yards than 1,500 and he's now over the hill and there couldn't possibly be any other factors than he is in decline.Well that's not what I'm saying at all. I didn't expect Cruz to get 1500 yards again because that's difficult to do that in back to back seasons. I don't think he's in decline or his "magic" is gone. 1200+ yards and 10 TD's are not by accident and are not lucky. He drew double coverage on a count of how good he is, so for everyone saying he's not that great well..there you go. They don't double overrated receivers. Cruz "lost" magic because he was the only guy out there at the receiving end who could be of any help..and yes, perhaps Eli's poor play factored in to his decline, but his decline is more due to drawing more coverage because he's good.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:45 PM
That is probably a part of it but in 2011 Cruz caught the ball and ran with it. In 2012 he caught the ball, danced a bit and was tackled. If he needs a #1 WR diverting attention to be great than he isn't a #1 WR and shouldn't be paid like one. Big time WR make huge plays regardless of who is covering them.

And yet he led the team in receptions and TDs

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:46 PM
Well that's not what I'm saying at all. I didn't expect Cruz to get 1500 yards again because that's difficult to do that in back to back seasons. I don't think he's in decline or his "magic" is gone. 1200+ yards and 10 TD's are not by accident and are not lucky. He drew double coverage on a count of how good he is, so for everyone saying he's not that great well..there you go. They don't double overrated receivers. Cruz "lost" magic because he was the only guy out there at the receiving end who could be of any help..and yes, perhaps Eli's poor play factored in to his decline, but his decline is more due to drawing more coverage because he's good.

I'm not suggesting YOU. But read through these threads, ALL OF THEM, and see some of the nonsense.

I agree with what you've said.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 02:47 PM
i think cruz is gonna get paid more then hes worth personally.. He had 2dyanmite yrs, but as said, his production tailed off last yr, and this would be the yr i would say will tell us what kinda WR Cruz is.. Hes awesome regardless, but break the bank good? I think one more yr would be needed to see that..

Not by the Giants

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:48 PM
Not by the Giants

This.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm not suggesting YOU. But read through these thread, ALL OF THEM, and see some of the nonsense.Yeah

GameTime
03-14-2013, 02:51 PM
so after 3 seasons Cruz has his best years behind him because he cant match a 1500 yard + career season...

wow.......great assessment

moosedrool
03-14-2013, 02:54 PM
"Is the magic gone for good?"

Most receivers don't emerge until their third year in the league. What Cruz has done in his first two years is rare, and at age 26 he is just entering his prime. Anyone who complains about 9 TD's and 1000+ yards from a second year WR just doesn't get it.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 02:54 PM
so after 3 seasons Cruz has his best years behind him because he cant match a 1500 yard + career season...

wow.......great assessment

You know what they say about posts and assessments ... :cool:

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 03:07 PM
Theres an enormous amount of sensitivity about Cruz here, getting near cultisit level if you ask me. .. its practically "he's great because he's great... and when he struggled its not his fault."

Personally my point of contention has been about him being wortth the "number #1" money... and he isnt.

Whats even more amazing about 2011 is that he really did it in 14 games... the last 14 games of the season. Warmed up in September, but who cares.. it was September.


The difference in 2012 was he started on fire for the first 4 games, in September... and his last 12 games he WAS Amendola.


If its fair for people to idolize Cruz for what happend in practically 14 games... (and face it, the fondest memories are from 2011) then its fair for people to GOD FORBID say he may not be worth top #3 money because his last 12 games.... GOD FORBID again ... may indicate that he's somewhere in between the two and may "only" make him in the top 10.

...not ripping him
...not saying he sucks
...definitely not saying the Giants are fine with out him

but some of you are down to the hilt on the guy...

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 03:15 PM
so after 3 seasons Cruz has his best years behind him because he cant match a 1500 yard + career season...

wow.......great assessment

I'm going to have to start drinking :p

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 03:17 PM
Theres an enormous amount of sensitivity about Cruz here, getting near cultisit level if you ask me. .. its practically "he's great because he's great... and when he struggled its not his fault."

Personally my point of contention has been about him being wortth the "number #1" money... and he isnt.

Whats even more amazing about 2011 is that he really did it in 14 games... the last 14 games of the season. Warmed up in September, but who cares.. it was September.


The difference in 2012 was he started on fire for the first 4 games, in September... and his last 12 games he WAS Amendola.


If its fair for people to idolize Cruz for what happend in practically 14 games... (and face it, the fondest memories are from 2011) then its fair for people to GOD FORBID say he may not be worth top #3 money because his last 12 games.... GOD FORBID again ... may indicate that he's somewhere in between the two and may "only" make him in the top 10.

...not ripping him
...not saying he sucks
...definitely not saying the Giants are fine with out him

but some of you are down to the hilt on the guy...

No one here has said he's entitled to #1 money. He's entitled to a decent payday, based on his performance and potential.

AGiantDynasty
03-14-2013, 03:35 PM
He will NEVER put up the numbers he did in 2011. He was an unknown guy and defenses didn't know about him or how to stop him.

Now, they have tape on him and know you have to hit him hard to slow him down.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean he wont be a very productive, top 10 WR. Cause he will.

NorwoodBlue
03-14-2013, 03:53 PM
Cruz' stats from last year are pretty interesting. He had big games against Washington twice, NO, TB, and the Eagles. In those games he put up 645 yards, averaging about 129yd/game. In the other 11 games he had 395 yards, averaging 36 yd/game. He had three touchdowns against Cleveland, and 6 in the other 15 games. That's kind of Osi-like, to run up the stats in a few games and be pretty average the rest of the way.

I do think his production, for the most part was down. In the majority of his games, way down. It seems like there were less long game changing touchdowns from him, and less reliability on third down. He had a stellar year in 2011; but, even with 1040 yards in 2012, he really wasn't close to the same receiver. I think a lot of that was that Nicks was hurt, and Cruz got more attention, and quite frankly, he isn't very good at breaking free from all that attention.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 03:55 PM
No one here has said he's entitled to #1 money. He's entitled to a decent payday, based on his performance and potential.

I'll say it ... he's entitled to #1 money.

Whether he gets it or not is a different story.

NorwoodBlue
03-14-2013, 03:58 PM
He will NEVER put up the numbers he did in 2011. He was an unknown guy and defenses didn't know about him or how to stop him.

Now, they have tape on him and know you have to hit him hard to slow him down.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean he wont be a very productive, top 10 WR. Cause he will.

He wasn't even a top 10 receiver in 2012. Statistically he was 15th. So it remains to be seen which direction will he go in 2013, up or down?

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 03:59 PM
I'll say it ... he's entitled to #1 money.

Whether he gets it or not is a different story.

DUFUS :)

GentleGiant
03-14-2013, 04:02 PM
Do you think Wes Welker received no attention in each of the last two years in which he was a first down machine and first in total YAC? That value was worth $6 million on the open market and no first round draft choice in compensation! That's irrelevant. The giants don't have gronk and Hernandez. The patriots have had a better running game. Comparing the 2 is misleading. Teams were too busy covering the TEs than welker.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:04 PM
He wasn't even a top 10 receiver in 2012. Statistically he was 15th. So it remains to be seen which direction will he go in 2013, up or down?

That was in yardage. He was 10th in receptions and 6th in scoring. While being doubled.

But I agree .. if he has less stats in 2013, his worth goes down. If his stats go up (anywhere between his 2011 and 2012 stats) his worth goes up to true #1 money (depending how hard up teams are for #1 receivers in 2014).

moosedrool
03-14-2013, 04:06 PM
He wasn't even a top 10 receiver in 2012. Statistically he was 15th. So it remains to be seen which direction will he go in 2013, up or down?

It was only his second year on the field (not counting his "redshirt" year). How many receivers put up 9 TD's and 1000+ yards in their second year? Answer: not very many

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:06 PM
Do you think Wes Welker received no attention in each of the last two years in which he was a first down machine and first in total YAC? That value was worth $6 million on the open market and no first round draft choice in compensation!

Welker wasn't doubled at all. Hernandez and Gronk were.

GentleGiant
03-14-2013, 04:07 PM
Good work! Cruz is a good player! I don't by into the great or top 5 stuff. He had a great first year but once teams learned about him his numbers fell and I don't see another year one performance in him. To many drops, looked a bit gun shy to often weak YAC numbers and he seems to want to much $$$$. Honestly I'm hoping he goes and we get an additional #1 and Jernigan get's his shot. Jernigan haters are what they are and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I like the kids speed, moves and competitive do anything mindset! So your telling me 1200 yards and 10 TDs means teams "figured" him out? Yet you'd rather put in a guy that isn't even the starting returner? Please man. Give me break and get your head out of the clouds. Even Jerry Rice eventually got "figured" out.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 04:16 PM
So your telling me 1200 yards and 10 TDs means teams "figured" him out? Yet you'd rather put in a guy that isn't even the starting returner? Please man. Give me break and get your head out of the clouds. Even Jerry Rice eventually got "figured" out.

You see - you "magically" get an extra 108 yards when your name is Victor Cruz.

NorwoodBlue
03-14-2013, 04:17 PM
It was only his second year on the field (not counting his "redshirt" year). How many receivers put up 9 TD's and 1000+ yards in their second year? Answer: not very many


Cruz was a picture of inconsistency. He had 5-6 good games, and the rest were between average and mediocre. His stats are lop-sided, and padded pretty heavily by a few big games. I like Cruz as much as the next guy; but his value to the team is being drastically overstated by a lot of people on this board. The Giants should be taking a hard look at why he got shut-down in so many games last year; because, I'm sure a lot of their opponents already are. Consistency is really going to be important for him going forward, and the drops and getting open against "attention" are a big part of that.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:18 PM
You see - you "magically" get an extra 108 yards when your name is Victor Cruz.

He's so good the stat sites haven't caught up to him yet.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 04:20 PM
He's so good the stat sites haven't caught up to him yet.

They factor in potential :)

midnite_nj
03-14-2013, 04:21 PM
lmao

TheEnigma
03-14-2013, 04:23 PM
It does seem that cute end zone dances matter the most for WRs when it comes to getting public recognition and props. Maybe Nicks needs to come up with something so people remember his 2011 postseason performance and talk about that more.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 04:24 PM
It does seem that cute end zone dances matter the most for WRs when it comes to getting public recognition and props. Maybe Nicks needs to come up with something so people remember his 2011 postseason performance and talk about that more.

Who doesn't remember? When Nicks is negotiating a deal all the talk will be about him.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:26 PM
It does seem that cute end zone dances matter the most for WRs when it comes to getting public recognition and props. Maybe Nicks needs to come up with something so people remember his 2011 postseason performance and talk about that more.

Nicks already has an end zone dance. It's called The Limp.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Nicks already has an end zone dance. It's called The Limp.

That is so lame

TheEnigma
03-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Who doesn't remember? When Nicks is negotiating a deal all the talk will be about him.

Outside of hardcore Giants fans, most of the world doesn't know only Larry Fitzgerald had a better playoff run than Nicks. Now if it were Cruz, you know we would hear about it all the time and rightfully so.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 04:31 PM
Outside of hardcore Giants fans, most of the world doesn't know only Larry Fitzgerald had a better playoff run than Nicks. Now if it were Cruz, you know we would hear about it all the time and rightfully so.

Cruz is the news story of the pre-season. It had to be with all of the hoopla from the media. When they sign him all we'll be hearing is how Reese screwed up and then it will die down until OTAs

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:32 PM
That is so lame

http://i.eatliver.com/2012/9742.jpg

gmenfan0488
03-14-2013, 04:33 PM
good anaylsis, w? He went from great in 2011 to good 2012. I think a healthy Nicks is more valuable to the giants than Cruz

TheEnigma
03-14-2013, 04:35 PM
Cruz is the news story of the pre-season. It had to be with all of the hoopla from the media. When they sign him all we'll be hearing is how Reese screwed up and then it will die down until OTAs

I'm talking about in general and not just this pre-season but I get what you're driving at. I just feel Nicks gets left in the shadows when he deserves a little more light.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 04:39 PM
I'm talking about in general and not just this pre-season but I get what you're driving at. I just feel Nicks gets left in the shadows when he deserves a little more light..

It's hard with the season he had meaning the two injuries. His play/production was off and, honestly speaking, he's yet to play a full season. But there's nothing to say that won't change this season and he will have alights out season. In fairness to all of them on offense, 2012 wasn't not their finest effort.

We have no place to go but up!

Rusty192
03-14-2013, 04:45 PM
My point is this. Eli has a bad season and it's the line, Nicks is injured, we have no running game, and on and on. Cruz has a season with 500 less yards than 1,500 and he's now over the hill and there couldn't possibly be any other factors than he is in decline.

Well that's not what I'm saying at all. I didn't expect Cruz to get 1500 yards again because that's difficult to do that in back to back seasons. I don't think he's in decline or his "magic" is gone. 1200+ yards and 10 TD's are not by accident and are not lucky. He drew double coverage on a count of how good he is, so for everyone saying he's not that great well..there you go. They don't double overrated receivers. Cruz "lost" magic because he was the only guy out there at the receiving end who could be of any help..and yes, perhaps Eli's poor play factored in to his decline, but his decline is more due to drawing more coverage because he's good.it didn't. Cruz still had a really good year right? The reason he did not recreate his 2011 success was only because D's paid him more attention. It wasn't Eli's fault, it wasn't Cruz's fault. He's a great player.

Kruunch
03-14-2013, 04:47 PM
it didn't. Cruz still had a really good year right? The reason he did not recreate his 2011 success was only because D's paid him more attention. It wasn't Eli's fault, it wasn't Cruz's fault. He's a great player.

Well ... it was kind of Cruz's fault. ;)

Rusty192
03-14-2013, 04:47 PM
I just feel Nicks gets left in the shadows when he deserves a little more light.Definitely true. He even did the dirty bird and people still forgot about him. smh

GentleGiant
03-14-2013, 04:56 PM
You see - you "magically" get an extra 108 yards when your name is Victor Cruz. Ok sorry 1100 yards. WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE! HE IS SUCH A BUST.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 05:07 PM
Ok sorry 1100 yards. WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE! HE IS SUCH A BUST.

No one said anything about a bust... but yeah its the difference between #15 and #10, when wanting more money which would you rather be?

Rusty192
03-14-2013, 05:13 PM
Well ... it was kind of Cruz's fault. ;)This much is certain regarding Cruz, he did not have many big plays after the catch this past year. Mostly due to him not looking the ball in, and thinking down field before he secured the catch. And that is definitely on him.

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 05:27 PM
This need to rip players apart when there is even a hint that they might leave is truly mind boggling.

I don't think anyone is ripping Cruz. People want to get Cruz for a fair deal, so people are trying to justify the right amount of salary we should get him for. It is obvious people want to keep him, but not at the cost of breaking the bank for him. I hope Cruz does not make it all about the money in the end. I think he should also think about the team he would end up with and who is throwing the ball to him because his success on the field will ultimately depend upon those. This is not Welker going from Brady to Peyton Manning which in the end is a no-brainer for Welker. And as some other people mentioned, he's getting more exposure in NY to make the extra money on the side for endorsements, plus he's with the team which is always going to be competitive in their division. Losing Cruz would be a big deal but not the end of the world. We missed the playoffs last season, so we won't be worse than last year if he leaves. It's playoffs or bust, and last season is a bust.

GentleGiant
03-14-2013, 05:49 PM
No one said anything about a bust... but yeah its the difference between #15 and #10, when wanting more money which would you rather be? He's 6th in scoring and 10th in catches so your comment is misleading.Also when the the stats are separated by a few yards then I don't care what rank you are. The steelers were the the number 1 D . You wouldn't know that though based on how they played.

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 05:52 PM
This need to rip players apart when there is even a hint that they might leave is truly mind boggling.

Wow, citing facts in black and white, comparing him to the best slot receiver in the business, and you call it "ripping apart." Nor have I seen anyone else do so.

Personally, I hope his stats sprial upwards in the coming years with the Giants. Also the point is that I'm arguing there is not chance he's going anywhere this coming season.

But, the facts are right before you. He is an open question mark as to his future, not a sure bet.

My "need" is to compare him to the market with facts and numbers, and to demonstrate that the market is nothing like the rumors, probably initiated in large part by his former agent.

And actually, is that you Tom, hijacking Roanoke Fan's account, pushing up the value of your agent on these boards? ;)

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 06:00 PM
He's 6th in scoring and 10th in catches so your comment is misleading.Also when the the stats are separated by a few yards then I don't care what rank you are. The steelers were the the number 1 D . You wouldn't know that though based on how they played.

I dont either - as fans we get that luxury, but this is probably the minutia they have to deal with during the back and forth negotiations.

Rudyy
03-14-2013, 06:03 PM
it didn't. Cruz still had a really good year right? The reason he did not recreate his 2011 success was only because D's paid him more attention. It wasn't Eli's fault, it wasn't Cruz's fault. He's a great player.I never said it was ALL Eli's fault.

giantsfan420
03-14-2013, 06:05 PM
Theres an enormous amount of sensitivity about Cruz here, getting near cultisit level if you ask me. .. its practically "he's great because he's great... and when he struggled its not his fault."

Personally my point of contention has been about him being wortth the "number #1" money... and he isnt.

Whats even more amazing about 2011 is that he really did it in 14 games... the last 14 games of the season. Warmed up in September, but who cares.. it was September.


The difference in 2012 was he started on fire for the first 4 games, in September... and his last 12 games he WAS Amendola.


If its fair for people to idolize Cruz for what happend in practically 14 games... (and face it, the fondest memories are from 2011) then its fair for people to GOD FORBID say he may not be worth top #3 money because his last 12 games.... GOD FORBID again ... may indicate that he's somewhere in between the two and may "only" make him in the top 10.

...not ripping him
...not saying he sucks
...definitely not saying the Giants are fine with out him

but some of you are down to the hilt on the guy...great post. i knew it was getting bad when people started saying "eli played badly and had a poor year and thats why Cruz didnt have another 2011 yr"

giantsfan420
03-14-2013, 06:08 PM
also, and im a big cruz guy and want him back. just saying, didnt he have more targets by far than any other wr? 1200 yds and 10 tds is a great yr dont get me wrong. but i expect him to do that at the min. with all those targets and no nicks to occupy elis eyes. he did more in less chances with a healthy nicks. so to me, i think its very fair to say that if he needs a #1 wr to help take the jump from very good to great, he prob shouldnt be paid like a great wr and more so a very good one...which i think is what happens

Flip Empty
03-14-2013, 06:23 PM
also, and im a big cruz guy and want him back. just saying, didnt he have more targets by far than any other wr? 1200 yds and 10 tds is a great yr dont get me wrong. but i expect him to do that at the min. with all those targets and no nicks to occupy elis eyes. he did more in less chances with a healthy nicks.
143 targets to Nicks' 100 in 2012
131 targets to Nicks' 133 in 2011

NYG4lifeNYK
03-14-2013, 06:28 PM
A major tumble? Cruz is THAT good and more.

You should be embarrassed....

To be very blunt... you're an idiot.

Flip Empty
03-14-2013, 06:32 PM
A major tumble? Cruz is THAT good and more.

You should be embarrassed....

To be very blunt... you're an idiot.
He's talking about stats, not talent. It's a fact that they took a tumble

SweetZombieJesus
03-14-2013, 06:37 PM
We were also completely missing Nicks for long stretches due to injury (so Cruz became the #1 target for defenses) and there was no viable 3rd option with Manningham gone.

GentleGiant
03-14-2013, 06:38 PM
I dont either - as fans we get that luxury, but this is probably the minutia they have to deal with during the back and forth negotiations. For what? A 1st round rookie that will most likely take years to fully develop? If we were gonna get a rookie WR we might as well just kept Cruz. We're not comparing him to Wes Welker. We should be comparing him to what ever rookie we'd get. Point he has a 1st round tender on him which historically never gets taken up.

NYG4lifeNYK
03-14-2013, 06:52 PM
He's talking about stats, not talent. It's a fact that they took a tumble

No one expected him to put up 1,500 again... it was an impossible feet.

His stats did not take a tumble. His dropped passes were his only blunder.

Flip Empty
03-14-2013, 07:03 PM
No one expected him to put up 1,500 again... it was an impossible feet.

His stats did not take a tumble. His dropped passes were his only blunder.
500 yards. That's a tumble.

BigBlueAllDay
03-14-2013, 07:04 PM
He's talking about stats, not talent. It's a fact that they took a tumble

??? I could easily say he has more touchdowns, more receptions, less fumbles in the 2012 regular season than 2011 regular season. To expect him to top 2011 regular season stats across the board with the WR injuries and defenses being more aware and prepared for him in 2012 is borderline ludicrous. Is he suppose to catch and run 99-yard TDs every year to pad his receiving yards and YAC every year? lol

Flip Empty
03-14-2013, 07:09 PM
??? I could easily say he has more touchdowns, more receptions, less fumbles in the 2012 regular season than 2011 regular season. To expect him to top 2011 regular season stats across the board with the WR injuries and defenses being more aware and prepared for him in 2012 is borderline ludicrous.
Show me where I said I expected him to top his 2011 numbers. You're making an argument out of nothing

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 07:22 PM
I don't think anyone is ripping Cruz. People want to get Cruz for a fair deal, so people are trying to justify the right amount of salary we should get him for. It is obvious people want to keep him, but not at the cost of breaking the bank for him. I hope Cruz does not make it all about the money in the end. I think he should also think about the team he would end up with and who is throwing the ball to him because his success on the field will ultimately depend upon those. This is not Welker going from Brady to Peyton Manning which in the end is a no-brainer for Welker. And as some other people mentioned, he's getting more exposure in NY to make the extra money on the side for endorsements, plus he's with the team which is always going to be competitive in their division. Losing Cruz would be a big deal but not the end of the world. We missed the playoffs last season, so we won't be worse than last year if he leaves. It's playoffs or bust, and last season is a bust.

This "breaking the bank" crap is a red herring. John Mara and Jerry Reese have stated publicly they will not break the bank so that's a given.

Honest question. Why do you think he's changing agents?

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 07:22 PM
Moral of this story -- The Giants and most Giants fans don't want to pay Victor Cruz high end #1 receiver money, thus they are arguing what he's worth. If he walks because we cannot match $10 million per year, most of us will understand why the Giants did not match, but I for one will not take it against him either if he goes for it.

BigBlueAllDay
03-14-2013, 07:26 PM
Show me where I said I expected him to top his 2011 numbers. You're making an argument out of nothing

You're stating for a fact that his stats took a tumble. I gave simple stats comparisons to prove that's not completely true. The expectations statement was a general comment for the Cruz complainers, should have spaced that apart. Sorry about that unless you're a Cruz complainer, hope you're not.:mad:

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 07:37 PM
This "breaking the bank" crap is a red herring. John Mara and Jerry Reese have stated publicly they will not break the bank so that's a given.

Honest question. Why do you think he's changing agents?

And I believe that's the reason why people are throwing out stats. People should not take it so negatively. They don't want to pay top dollar and they're justifying a fair deal for him which should be closer to what Welker got than the high end for a #1 receiver.

Who knows exactly why he changed agents except the last one did not work out for him and he wants to be able to get the best deal for himself. Best deal may not mean most money if he considers all the other factors. Well, the fact that Mara said he would not accept the Giants "substantial offer" and they wanted to test the market either means he's looking for top dollar or it's actually a lowball offer.

Hooligans
03-14-2013, 07:48 PM
I'm becoming more acceptable of losing Cruz for a 1st round pick. We know the Giants can't afford to pay big buck to Cruz and Nicks, so pay Nicks and get an extra first round pick for April.....sounds really good to me now!

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 07:52 PM
Moral of this story -- The Giants and most Giants fans don't want to pay Victor Cruz high end #1 receiver money, thus they are arguing what he's worth. If he walks because we cannot match $10 million per year, most of us will understand why the Giants did not match, but I for one will not take it against him either if he goes for it.

Do you recall Steve Smith being labeled a "traitor" when he left for the Eagles? He received so much electronic hate mail he had to shut his facebook page down

Hooligans
03-14-2013, 07:55 PM
Do you recall Steve Smith being labeled a "traitor" when he left for the Eagles? He received so much electronic hate mail he had to shut his facebook page down

ANY NFL player that keeps a Facebook or twitter account is insane.......you can bet Eli and Peyton don't......they are smarter than that.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 07:55 PM
And I believe that's the reason why people are throwing out stats. People should not take it so negatively. They don't want to pay top dollar and they're justifying a fair deal for him which should be closer to what Welker got than the high end for a #1 receiver.

Who knows exactly why he changed agents except the last one did not work out for him and he wants to be able to get the best deal for himself. Best deal may not mean most money if he considers all the other factors. Well, the fact that Mara said he would not accept the Giants "substantial offer" and they wanted to test the market either means he's looking for top dollar or it's actually a lowball offer.

His old agent was clearly going for the bank. If that's what Cruz wanted he would have gotten it with that agent. It was reported he wanted someone who could work with the Giants. Does that sound as though he is being unreasonable?

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 07:56 PM
ANY NFL player that keeps a Facebook or twitter account is insane.......you can bet Eli and Peyton don't......they are smarter than that.

That's not the point although I agree with you.

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 07:57 PM
Do you recall Steve Smith being labeled a "traitor" when he left for the Eagles? He received so much electronic hate mail he had to shut his facebook page downSince its the second time you're bringing this up, where has there been anything comparable in this thread or any other Cruz threads to Smith's treatment?

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 08:01 PM
Do you recall Steve Smith being labeled a "traitor" when he left for the Eagles? He received so much electronic hate mail he had to shut his facebook page down

I said I won't take it against him, not talking about everybody else's reaction if he does walk because of more money. I bet most people would understand the Giants if the money turns out to be top dollar, but that does not mean everybody will be happy for him. And yeah, as what happened to Steve Smith more money sometimes does not work out.

StrahanSoup92
03-14-2013, 08:01 PM
Steve Smith didnt get any hate, not that I can remember. He never wanted to leave, and because of a screw up with his agent or something, he ended up signing with Philly. Giants FO made a mistake letting him get away.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:02 PM
Since its the second time you're bringing this up, where has there been anything comparable in this thread or any other Cruz threads to Smith's treatment?

Cruz is still here, wait and see if he leaves

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 08:02 PM
Steve Smith didnt get any hate, not that I can remember. He never wanted to leave, and because of a screw up with his agent or something, he ended up signing with Philly. Giants FO made a mistake letting him get away.Oh he got plenty.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Steve Smith didnt get any hate, not that I can remember. He never wanted to leave, and because of a screw up with his agent or something, he ended up signing with Philly. Giants FO made a mistake letting him get away.

No, that's not how it went. Smith went to the Eagles and they told him here's the deal, take it this moment or don't come back. He took it as it was a better financial deal than he would have gotten from the Giants. The Eagles also told him he could probably start on opening day which didn't happen but they did put him in before he should have and ended up on IR.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Steve Smith didnt get any hate, not that I can remember. He never wanted to leave, and because of a screw up with his agent or something, he ended up signing with Philly. Giants FO made a mistake letting him get away.

If you believe that, you weren't paying attention

Ruttiger711
03-14-2013, 08:05 PM
Cruz is still here, wait and see if he leavesOf course it will happen - you can't switch deodorant on social media as a celeb with catching **** for it.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:06 PM
I said I won't take it against him, not talking about everybody else's reaction if he does walk because of more money. I bet most people would understand the Giants if the money turns out to be top dollar, but that does not mean everybody will be happy for him. And yeah, as what happened to Steve Smith more money sometimes does not work out.

Smith taking more money was not a bad decision. Believing that the Eagles could some how magically heal him in time for opening day was just stupid when the medical staff who performed the operations and rehab said mid-season at best.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:06 PM
Of course it will happen - you can't switch deodorant on social media as a celeb with catching **** for it.

LMAO nice

GreenZone
03-14-2013, 08:07 PM
This "breaking the bank" crap is a red herring. John Mara and Jerry Reese have stated publicly they will not break the bank so that's a given.

Honest question. Why do you think he's changing agents?

My guess is that it's because his previous agent convinced him to go for the big money and there was no indication it was going to happen. Realizing he has to deal with the Giants in 2012 in order to play, he cut his losses and wanted someone more even handed in negotiating.

And you also know that Victor, even more than most of us, realizes the exact bind the Giants are in regarding the salary cap.

It's puzzling to me, Roanoke, why you are pulling the opponents-of-a-big-salary-are-"haters" card in some of your responses. I see none of that in these dozen or so pages of posts.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:11 PM
My guess is that it's because his previous agent convinced him to go for the big money and there was no indication it was going to happen. Realizing he has to deal with the Giants in 2012 in order to play, he cut his losses and wanted someone more even handed in negotiating.

And you also know that Victor, even more than most of us, realizes the exact bind the Giants are in regarding the salary cap.

It's puzzling to me, Roanoke, why you are pulling the opponents-of-a-big-salary-are-"haters" card in some of your responses. I see none of that in these dozen or so pages of posts.

I don't believe I've used that word.

Let me make this clear, the CAP situation of any team is not the fault of the players. If they can get a better deal from another team because their current team can't afford the market value, that's business. They have a VERY short shelf life in the NFL compared to the rest of us.

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 08:17 PM
His old agent was clearly going for the bank. If that's what Cruz wanted he would have gotten it with that agent. It was reported he wanted someone who could work with the Giants. Does that sound as though he is being unreasonable?

Uhm, you're testing the market, no one is offering anything yet for you, much less giving up a #1 pick. Who knows if his agent would be successful in breaking someone else's bank. Certainly, that agent was not successful breaking the Giants' bank. Cruz may have his number for the agent to say "yay" or "nay" to that "substantial offer" and the answer is negative. He was clearly not happy with that result. Anything less than a long-term contract after months of negotiation I would say is a disappointment for Cruz because I do think he wants to stay but for the right amount of money and that "substantial offer" is currently not the right amount for him.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:20 PM
Uhm, you're testing the market, no one is offering anything yet for you, much less giving up a #1 pick. Who knows if his agent would be successful in breaking someone else's bank. Certainly, that agent was not successful breaking the Giants' bank. Cruz may have his number for the agent to say "yay" or "nay" to that "substantial offer" and the answer is negative. He was clearly not happy with that result. Anything less than a long-term contract after months of negotiation I would say is a disappointment for Cruz because I do think he wants to stay but for the right amount of money and that "substantial offer" is currently not the right amount for him.

No one can offer him anything until next week. If you don't like the deal you just tell your agent yes or no, you don't fire him. Something happened and we probably will never know what that was. But his new agent has a good working relationship with Jerry Reese and that was reported as being what Cruz was looking for in the change.

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 08:39 PM
No one can offer him anything until next week. If you don't like the deal you just tell your agnet yes or no, you don't fire him. Something happened and we probably will never know what that was. But his new agent has a good orking relationship with Jerry Reese and that was reported as being what Cruz was looking for in the change.

Are we on the same page? I am responding to you saying the last agent wanted to break the bank. I am saying it's no guarantee he could break the bank, or if anyone would give up a #1 pick to boot. Victor Cruz was then unhappy with that result so he fired him. He obviously could not work out a long-term contract and Cruz would not agree on that "substantial offer" either, so that agent was not working out since he ended up being tendered.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 08:44 PM
Are we on the same page? I am responding to you saying the last agent wanted to break the bank. I am saying it's no guarantee he could break the bank, or if anyone would give up a #1 pick to boot. Victor Cruz was then unhappy with that result so he fired him. He obviously could not work out a long-term contract and Cruz would not agree on that "substantial offer" either, so that agent was not working out since he ended up being tendered.

We don't know if it was Cruz or his agent that was not willing to accept that "substantial offer." But within a few days of John Mara saying they made an offer that would make Cruz "a very wealthy young man" old agent sent packing, Tom Condon brought in.

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 08:52 PM
We don't know if it was Cruz or his agent that was not willing to accept that "substantial offer." But within a few days of John Mara saying they made an offer that would make Cruz "a very wealthy young man" old agent sent packing, Tom Condon brought in.

Wasn't it also the deadline and you could not negotiate further? The agent works for you, not the other way around. It's your decision at the end, or at least the decision should be based on your wishes if he has to make it on your behalf. Cruz must know what that "substantial offer" before the agent declined. The deal may not be substantial enough and it could still be the agent's fault. Either way, there was no long-term contract and the "substantial offer" was not substantial enough, that agent was not working out.

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 09:03 PM
Wasn't it also the deadline and you could not negotiate further? The agent works for you, not the other way around. It's your decision at the end, or at least the decision should be based on your wishes if he has to make it on your behalf. Cruz must know what that "substantial offer" before the agent declined. The deal may not be substantial enough and it could still be the agent's fault. Either way, there was no long-term contract and the "substantial offer" was not substantial enough, that agent was not working out.

The Giants can negotiate with Cruz and his agent, when he has one, whenever they want, even with the tender in place. The agent may have freelanced or Cruz may have trusted him to handle the day to day negotiating. We simply don't know for sure.

ShakeandBake
03-14-2013, 09:03 PM
Do you recall Steve Smith being labeled a "traitor" when he left for the Eagles? He received so much electronic hate mail he had to shut his facebook page down

extenuating circumstance, Steve Smith talked smack all about the Eagles weeks before signing with them. There wouldn't have been such a negative response if had just kept his mouth shut.

AllHailEli
03-14-2013, 09:17 PM
The Giants can negotiate with Cruz and his agent, when he has one, whenever they want, even with the tender in place. The agent may have freelanced or Cruz may have trusted him to handle the day to day negotiating. We simply don't know for sure.

This sounds a little far-fetched since a few months ago, there were rumors the Giants were prioritizing Nicks and obviously Cruz and the Giants could not agree on a long-term deal. That seems a red flag to me not to be aware and informed at the very least of what is going on with your negotiation. This is the reason why these players go bankrupt. They have everybody else managing their career and finances without being involved and in the know themselves. I hope for Cruz's sake that is not the case.

giantsfan420
03-14-2013, 09:21 PM
This sounds a little far-fetched since a few months ago, there were rumors the Giants were prioritizing Nicks and obviously Cruz and the Giants could not agree on a long-term deal. That seems a red flag to me not to be aware and informed at the very least of what is going on with your negotiation. This is the reason why these players go bankrupt. They have everybody else managing their career and finances without being involved and in the know themselves. I hope for Cruz's sake that is not the case.there is a cut off date where if a long term deal isnt agreed on, we arent allowed to offer him one. im not sure if the deadline means we arent allowed to negotiate a long term deal for the rest of the season or if its a set time frame like FA period and then the reg. season they can resume long term talks. thats what happened with M.Wallace...

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 09:22 PM
This sounds a little far-fetched since a few months ago, there were rumors the Giants were prioritizing Nicks and obviously Cruz and the Giants could not agree on a long-term deal. That seems a red flag to me not to be aware and informed at the very least of what is going on with your negotiation. This is the reason why these players go bankrupt. They have everybody else managing their career and finances without being involved and in the know themselves. I hope for Cruz's sake that is not the case.

Those Nicks rumors were dispelled by both Jerry Reese and John Mara

RoanokeFan
03-14-2013, 09:23 PM
there is a cut off date where if a long term deal isnt agreed on, we arent allowed to offer him one. im not sure if the deadline means we arent allowed to negotiate a long term deal for the rest of the season or if its a set time frame like FA period and then the reg. season they can resume long term talks. thats what happened with M.Wallace...

Cruz has until June 17th to sign the tender. The team can negotiate all season long I'm pretty sure.

Rat_bastich
03-14-2013, 10:13 PM
Cruz has until June 17th to sign the tender. The team can negotiate all season long I'm pretty sure.

Yep, this. Usually the Giants though will table negotiations during a season and wait until everyone is in the mind frame again. Though, with a talent like Cruz I wouldn't be surprised if....and a very strong if....the Giants get him signed to a long term, cap friendly deal way before the draft even.

gibril28wilson
03-14-2013, 10:23 PM
this is a ridic post. Cruz is 26. best years behind him?? are u nuts. the dude just had 1000+ yard 80+ rec 10 td season. u know how many teams would KILL for that type of production??? just because he didnt have the same number of big plays doesnt mean he wasnt valuable and productive. the guy was the only wr on the team with a sporadic offense and defense who cant stop anyone.

Cruz is a more than high quality receiver. not saying he deserves that wallace type contract but he definitely deserves his pay from us

giantsfan420
03-14-2013, 10:37 PM
no. theres actually a date when the two sides can no longer negotiate. it happened with m.wallace and pitt last year. the tendered him, tried to reach a deal, couldnt, then that date, and then they couldnt negotiate anymore. unless they changed that, its still a rule iirc...

GreenZone
03-15-2013, 02:32 AM
this is a ridic post. Cruz is 26. best years behind him?? are u nuts. the dude just had 1000+ yard 80+ rec 10 td season. u know how many teams would KILL for that type of production??? just because he didnt have the same number of big plays doesnt mean he wasnt valuable and productive. the guy was the only wr on the team with a sporadic offense and defense who cant stop anyone.

Cruz is a more than high quality receiver. not saying he deserves that wallace type contract but he definitely deserves his pay from us

It sounds very much like you didn't bother to read it. Would they "kill" to pay a slot receiver $8-$11 million when the best one in football just signed for $6 million?

And it was questioned whether his best "year" not "years" is behind him. Cruz had a once in a lifetime rookie year that may never be topped. It definitely wasn't in his second year, and we don't know if he goes up or down in the third year.

Hooligans
03-15-2013, 08:04 AM
It sounds very much like you didn't bother to read it. Would they "kill" to pay a slot receiver $8-$11 million when the best one in football just signed for $6 million?

And it was questioned whether his best "year" not "years" is behind him. Cruz had a once in a lifetime rookie year that may never be topped. It definitely wasn't in his second year, and we don't know if he goes up or down in the third year.

Actually, it was Cruz's second year when he broke out, as he spent most of his rookie year on IR (really it was his redshirt year).

RoanokeFan
03-15-2013, 08:09 AM
extenuating circumstance, Steve Smith talked smack all about the Eagles weeks before signing with them. There wouldn't have been such a negative response if had just kept his mouth shut.

Sorry, but that's just silly.

Drez
03-15-2013, 08:43 AM
there is a cut off date where if a long term deal isnt agreed on, we arent allowed to offer him one. im not sure if the deadline means we arent allowed to negotiate a long term deal for the rest of the season or if its a set time frame like FA period and then the reg. season they can resume long term talks. thats what happened with M.Wallace...There is no cut off for the original team. There is a cut off for other teams.

GameTime
03-15-2013, 11:07 AM
I'm going to have to start drinking :p
now you're talking. Line em up I will join you.....:)

Moke
03-15-2013, 11:10 AM
I love those websites because they tend to have awesome statistics. People hate on THESE statistics are the same people that always use statistics to back up their arguments.

Right on, dude!

GreenZone
03-15-2013, 01:03 PM
And now we learn that the top slot receiver in football's contract is voidable by March of the second season, per Jason LaCanfora on Twitter:

Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora (https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora) Welker could be 1yr-$6M at a minimum - '14 roster bonus and base salary guaranteed 4 injury only now. don't become fully guar til March 2014

Expand (https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/312582589133230081)

The market for slot receivers in the NFL is declining even more than realized yesterday. Hello Tom Condon.

Legal Disclaimer: This thread and this post are in no way intended to rip, disrespect or tear apart Victor Cruz as a human being, football player, athlete, TV Commercial star or dancer.