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Kruunch
03-18-2013, 12:59 PM
1) Alex Okafor (DE) - With the signing of Cullen Jenkins, the Giants go back to their bread and butter, the DE position. While the Giants would love to have Ansah, he's gone by this pick. Moore and Jones don't satisfy (low motors and/or inconsistent) and Werner I think goes higher despite his falling stock. Conversely, Okafor's stock didn't rise as high as it might have due to not being able to workout fully at the Combine and presents the best LDE replacement for Tuck in the draft after Werner.

2) Arthur Brown (LB) - Arthur Brown's stock doesn't rise much past where's it's been due to lack of highlight films but he's probably the most solid all-around LBer in the draft. Able to play any of the LBer positions, he translates well as our MLB of the future (something Khaseem Greene does not). I think the workout with Khaseem Greene is a smoke screen and only tips off where the Giants are targeting their LBer pick this year.

3) Darius Slay (CB) - While the Giants desperately need OL help (especially an answer at RT), they aren't thrilled with what falls to them at this point and prepare for CWeb's departure next year in solidifying the secondary. Slay is what the Giants look for in a CB in terms of size and speed and he slips slightly in the 3rd round due to lack of starting experience, making him a value pick.

4) Oday Aboushi (OT) - The Giants, yet again, wait until the 4th round for their potential answer at RT in Aboushi, Too rough and aggressive as an LT prospect, that attitude and his size serve him extremely well as a RT prospect. Big ole mean guy!

5) Bernie Logan (DT) - Otherwise known as meat. The Jenkins signing buys the Giants a year or two at the DT position but needs must at depth.

6) Ty Powell (LB) - Adding to our LBer corps, Powell has ideal size (6'2, 245), speed (4.65 40) and strength (28 reps). Very rough around the edges, he's a diamond in the rough.

7) Denard Robinson (WR) - Percy Harvin type minus the head aches, this is the kind of 7th round pick that excites Reese.

BlueSabbath
03-18-2013, 02:01 PM
There's a bleacher report mock for us that is almost this exact mock. Except it had Oday and Denard one round earlier. My next could have this exact first 3 if I thought there was a chance of getting Slay that late.

BlessedinBlue22
03-18-2013, 02:31 PM
I believe it'll be between Ogletree or Okafor. likely Okafor. Then Greene in the second, i'm not crazy about Brown..Greene has much more production and just as athletic. Greene is also better at ripping the ball out creating turnovers, the big hits, etc.

Kruunch
03-18-2013, 02:38 PM
I believe it'll be between Ogletree or Okafor. likely Okafor. Then Greene in the second, i'm not crazy about Brown..Greene has much more production and just as athletic. Greene is also better at ripping the ball out creating turnovers, the big hits, etc.

The reasons I don't think it will be Greene (or Ogletree for that matter):

1) Greene can't stack and shed. Once he gets locked up by a blocker he's out of the play. That means he projects, at best, as a WILL (and he will be a very good WILL imo).

2) We have our starter and depth at the WILL position and they're both young (JWill and Paysinger) which would make drafting Greene redundant.

3) Arthur Brown can play all of the LBer positions which means he can play the MIKE in our base defense and swap to the SAM in our Nickel package.

Same arguments can be made for Ogletree (Greene is seen as a slightly smaller version of Ogletree).

I do agree that Greene has better highlights, but if you watch the plays in between, you start to see where their (Greene vs. Brown) games divurge and who is the more complete LBer (which we need desperately right now).

TheEnigma
03-18-2013, 02:53 PM
Damontre Moore and Datone Jones have low motors? I haven't seen anything on tape ONCE that would backup that statement for both players. If anything, Jones has a very high motor but he does have trouble over pursuing in the backfield at times and his pad level is an issue. He also doesn't have the best flexibility to rush from the edge but he has a very nice power to speed transition to get inside of an OT. Moore does seem to have an inconsistent first step but the fact he looks so much better on tape as a 3-4 OLB in the 2011 season tells me that an eyeball test on him might not be fair.

You talk about inconsistency but Jones and Moore actually have more consistent production when it comes to tackles over Okafor. He also doesn't offer the versatility that Jones or Moore can give to a team when it comes to lining these players up so that's another thing to consider.

BlueSabbath
03-18-2013, 02:56 PM
Damontre Moore and Datone Jones have low motors? I haven't seen anything on tape ONCE that would backup that statement for both players. If anything, Jones has a very high motor but he does have trouble over pursuing in the backfield at times and his pad level is an issue. He also doesn't have the best flexibility to rush from the edge but he has a very nice power to speed transition to get inside of an OT. Moore does seem to have an inconsistent first step but the fact he looks so much better on tape as a 3-4 OLB in the 2011 season tells me that an eyeball test on him might not be fair.

You talk about inconsistency but Jones and Moore actually have more consistent production when it comes to tackles over Okafor. He also doesn't offer the versatility that Jones or Moore can give to a team when it comes to lining these players up so that's another thing to consider.

"and/or" inconsistent

TheEnigma
03-18-2013, 03:01 PM
"and/or" inconsistent

I still want to know where Kruunch saw this on the tape. Those labels aren't true for either player.

Toadofsteel
03-18-2013, 03:13 PM
I don't see Bennie Logan falling all the way to the 5th round personally... I have him as 3rd round in my own draft.

That said, I love the Okafor pick (and have picked so myself).

Kruunch
03-18-2013, 03:16 PM
Damontre Moore and Datone Jones have low motors? I haven't seen anything on tape ONCE that would backup that statement for both players. If anything, Jones has a very high motor but he does have trouble over pursuing in the backfield at times and his pad level is an issue. He also doesn't have the best flexibility to rush from the edge but he has a very nice power to speed transition to get inside of an OT. Moore does seem to have an inconsistent first step but the fact he looks so much better on tape as a 3-4 OLB in the 2011 season tells me that an eyeball test on him might not be fair.

You talk about inconsistency but Jones and Moore actually have more consistent production when it comes to tackles over Okafor. He also doesn't offer the versatility that Jones or Moore can give to a team when it comes to lining these players up so that's another thing to consider.

Datone Jones: He's sort of the flip side of the coin of JPP. Where JPP can slide inside or out and excel, Jones can do both but excels at neither. His pad level is too inconsistent on the inside (gets blown off the ball at the point of attack) and he lacks the pass rush on the edge to warrant a first round pick (imo). He'd make a serviceable LDE in a 4-3 defense, but I want more than "serviceable" out of my #1 pick. I happen to think he translates better as a 3-4 DE, where his size can be utilized better (although the same concerns abound).

Damontre Moore: He's the slow motor guy. Takes plays off. Needs more size to anchor the end in a 4-3. Much better attacking while standing up (i.e. 3-4 OLB). Oh and 12 reps on the bench (ewwwwww!) ... strength issues.

Okafor: Excels at all of the above and does it consistently better than the above two (with the possible exception of playing from a 3-4 OLB position). Sets the edge (something we desperately need in our LDE) and has a strong and consistent pass rush. Also has a non-stop motor and never takes a play off. The only reason (imo) that he's not rated higher then Jones or Moore was his limited participation in the Combine.

Kruunch
03-18-2013, 03:17 PM
I don't see Bennie Logan falling all the way to the 5th round personally... I have him as 3rd round in my own draft.

That said, I love the Okafor pick (and have picked so myself).

Possibly ... I tend to have more leeway after the third round (and I highly doubt BL goes in the third round but that's just me).

TheEnigma
03-18-2013, 03:41 PM
Datone Jones: He's sort of the flip side of the coin of JPP. Where JPP can slide inside or out and excel, Jones can do both but excels at neither. His pad level is too inconsistent on the inside (gets blown off the ball at the point of attack) and he lacks the pass rush on the edge to warrant a first round pick (imo). He'd make a serviceable LDE in a 4-3 defense, but I want more than "serviceable" out of my #1 pick. I happen to think he translates better as a 3-4 DE, where his size can be utilized better (although the same concerns abound).

Uhh, Datone Jones is talked about as one of the best interior pass rushers in this draft. He has no problem getting pressure on the quarterback and making plays in the backfield from the inside. Funny thing is that he has been talked about gaining a few lbs more of weight and playing 3 tech. He definitely has the natural talent to have a Geno Atkins esque ceiling on the inside for a 4-3 but as you also point out, he could make an excellent 3-4 DE as well. I do admit that he could use a bit more flexibility to pass rush from the edge but majority of his pass rush would be from the inside anyhow while you slip a smaller guy to take advantage of the RT.


Damontre Moore: He's the slow motor guy. Takes plays off. Needs more size to anchor the end in a 4-3. Much better attacking while standing up (i.e. 3-4 OLB). Oh and 12 reps on the bench (ewwwwww!) ... strength issues.

Slow motor? I've never seen Moore take a play off once while watching his tape. You might be confusing that with his game speed which is inconsistent but he does work hard to make plays. You're also being a little hard on a kid (he's only 20 and a half) who definitely has the frame to add more strength and speed with an NFL program. Though I do agree with you on wanting Okafor over Moore because the latter is more suited to the 3-4.


Okafor: Excels at all of the above and does it consistently better than the above two (with the possible exception of playing from a 3-4 OLB position). Sets the edge (something we desperately need in our LDE) and has a strong and consistent pass rush. Also has a non-stop motor and never takes a play off. The only reason (imo) that he's not rated higher then Jones or Moore was his limited participation in the Combine.

Wait, are you saying Okafor has a better interior pass rush than Jones? That is such a false statement Kruunch and you know it. The only thing Okafor is better at than Jones is being a more consistent pass rusher on the edge in a 4-3. He definitely has questions setting the edge against some of the bigger Ts heading into the NFL and while he does have a good motor (high too), I wouldn't say he is non-stop. All of them have pretty equal motors imo.

Kruunch
03-18-2013, 04:04 PM
Ok keep in mind that I'm giving you my rationalization of player vs. player in the context of what I think will be best for the Giants (and of course, opinions being what they are and all that).


Uhh, Datone Jones is talked about as one of the best interior pass rushers in this draft. He has no problem getting pressure on the quarterback and making plays in the backfield from the inside. Funny thing is that he has been talked about gaining a few lbs more of weight and playing 3 tech. He definitely has the natural talent to have a Geno Atkins esque ceiling on the inside for a 4-3 but as you also point out, he could make an excellent 3-4 DE as well. I do admit that he could use a bit more flexibility to pass rush from the edge but majority of his pass rush would be from the inside anyhow while you slip a smaller guy to take advantage of the RT.


Depends who's doing the talking ... those pimping him or those not. It's not just what he's done in college but how it projects at the next level. At the next level, I don't see him being nearly as effective in the interior (where he won't be facing 260 lb. accounting majors). And on the outside, we've covered his flaws which are not likely to get better at the next level. We both agree we think he's more suited to a 3-4 DE sooooo ..... (and I think he's a long way from being Geno Atkins personally).



Slow motor? I've never seen Moore take a play off once while watching his tape. You might be confusing that with his game speed which is inconsistent but he does work hard to make plays. You're also being a little hard on a kid (he's only 20 and a half) who definitely has the frame to add more strength and speed with an NFL program. Though I do agree with you on wanting Okafor over Moore because the latter is more suited to the 3-4.


Inconsistent speed or slow motor ... call it what you like. The fact is that on some plays he looks like he's going half speed. We already have a LDE that does that :(

Being "hard on the kid" is irrelevant. I'm sure he's a great guy and at the level we're talking about, they're all amazing athletes. But again, you agree with me that he's more suited to a different defensive scheme (in this case as a 3-4 OLB). So my comments aren't off base (I'm just using adjectives you don't like (but agree with in essence hehe)).




Wait, are you saying Okafor has a better interior pass rush than Jones? That is such a false statement Kruunch and you know it. The only thing Okafor is better at than Jones is being a more consistent pass rusher on the edge in a 4-3. He definitely has questions setting the edge against some of the bigger Ts heading into the NFL and while he does have a good motor (high too), I wouldn't say he is non-stop. All of them have pretty equal motors imo.

No, Okafor doesn't have a better interior pass rush as Datone Jones. However he has a good interior pass rush ... has a good edge rush ... is good against the run ... and is good at setting the edge (and yes I have the same concerns there against NFL tackles). He's more natural to the LDE of any of the guys we've mentioned (which is where we really need him) and he has experience at all points on the line.

So to sum up why I like Okafor better than Jones or Moore ... he does more things better. While each of the latter two have one facet of their game where they might excel at, Okafor seems to stand out overall much more. He doesn't really have a weak point to his game (the major concerns being with projection).

And comparing game tape on all three, there is absolutely no question (at least in my mind) who has the higher motor (Okafor ... by a mile). Part of the reason I'm so high on him (even over Ansah) is his conditioning.

TheEnigma
03-18-2013, 04:49 PM
Ok keep in mind that I'm giving you my rationalization of player vs. player in the context of what I think will be best for the Giants (and of course, opinions being what they are and all that).

Understood but if that is the case, we should be looking more for a pass rusher that is better suited to play RDE in the 4-3 instead since the Giants just mentioned how they want to move JPP to LDE. I'm not a fan of that move at all personally and would rather look for a more natural LDE like Jones and Okafor but neither of the three guys we are talking about really project well as 4-3 RDEs imo. Moore MAYBE can project to the RDE spot but I feel his athleticism in space is too good to not use him at 3-4 OLB.


Depends who's doing the talking ... those pimping him or those not. It's not just what he's done in college but how it projects at the next level. At the next level, I don't see him being nearly as effective in the interior (where he won't be facing 260 lb. accounting majors). And on the outside, we've covered his flaws which are not likely to get better at the next level. We both agree we think he's more suited to a 3-4 DE sooooo ..... (and I think he's a long way from being Geno Atkins personally).

I know you're just using hyperbole with the 260lb comments (the juniors and seniors aren't THAT small) but he usually wins his matches on the interior with an array of moves and penetration instead of flat out bullrushing. I'd say he actually projects well on the inside because he can take advantage of slower linemen and he has a good blend of strength and speed so he won't be outright owned in the event the OL gets their arms and hands on him. I never said Jones was better suited to the 3-4 but that he can do it as well. It's just the safest place to throw him for now since that's what he did last season. He definitely has the body right now to play 4-3 end at LDE and set the edge against the run. Like we both agree, he isn't the best pass rusher off an edge but all we need is someone to win 1-on-1 match ups and take advantage of the attention JPP is getting. Jones can do that for sure.


Inconsistent speed or slow motor ... call it what you like. The fact is that on some plays he looks like he's going half speed. We already have a LDE that does that

Being "hard on the kid" is irrelevant. I'm sure he's a great guy and at the level we're talking about, they're all amazing athletes. But again, you agree with me that he's more suited to a different defensive scheme (in this case as a 3-4 OLB). So my comments aren't off base (I'm just using adjectives you don't like (but agree with in essence hehe)).

I'm just saying that since he is a pretty young prospect coming out of college, he can continue to get more conditioning and add strength to his lanky frame. I wouldn't pass over him so fast because he still finds a way to produce NOW (and more consistently than Okafor) and he does look better in space than Okafor too. He's a risky prospect but I'd say he has a really good ceiling.


No, Okafor doesn't have a better interior pass rush as Datone Jones. However he has a good interior pass rush ... has a good edge rush ... is good against the run ... and is good at setting the edge (and yes I have the same concerns there against NFL tackles). He's more natural to the LDE of any of the guys we've mentioned (which is where we really need him) and he has experience at all points on the line.

Well, you did say Jones doesn't excel at either and that Okafor did so that's why I was confused in regards to the analysis of the interior pass rush. You are right that he is a well-rounded player and projects as a safe 4-3 DE to take in the draft but there is legit concern when it comes to his projection in playing the run and setting the edge against better OTs in the NFL, especially if he is going to play the LDE position. Now that we are playing in a division with the likes of the Redskins and Eagles, we're going to need someone who has a better shot at run stopping in the NFL and that would be Jones who has a better chance to not be moved around on the edge than Okafor.


So to sum up why I like Okafor better than Jones or Moore ... he does more things better. While each of the latter two have one facet of their game where they might excel at, Okafor seems to stand out overall much more. He doesn't really have a weak point to his game (the major concerns being with projection).

The one major issue I do have with Okafor is what do you do with him if he is a lost cause at 4-3 LDE? Can we salvage the player and stick him somewhere else if he has problems playing against bigger and more athletic OTs? I suppose he could be a situational pass rusher but that would suck as a 1st rounder if he can't play too many snaps. Worst case with Jones on the Giants is that he just have him gain more weight for the next season and have him compete for the 3 tech spot. Jenkins is here now but he isn't a long term answer and Austin is well...Austin :). The fact his only issue on the inside is pad level is good to me because it's coachable.


And comparing game tape on all three, there is absolutely no question (at least in my mind) who has the higher motor (Okafor ... by a mile). Part of the reason I'm so high on him (even over Ansah) is his conditioning.

Well, I like Okafor's motor as well but you have to realize that edge players usually look better than interior players in terms of motors (hence the reason you see so many DTs get tagged with motor concerns) and that Okafor has generally been put in better positions to make plays versus Jones. The reason I was against your "non-stop motor" comment is because that is a very high praise to give to a player and usually guys like J.J. Watt or even the real LT stand out in that regard. Okafor is not a monster to that degree when it comes to trying to establish his dominance on the field.

Anyway, I think we both established that we're really high on our favorite DE and there is a bit of bias to our statements. I'd honestly be happy with any three of players because if there is one thing this coaching staff knows how to do, it's develop DL Always great to debate with you Kruunch.

Kruunch
03-19-2013, 08:49 AM
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