PDA

View Full Version : PFO - FRONT 4 GIVES GIANTS A CHANCE TO BEAT ANYONE



RoanokeFan
12-29-2011, 02:33 PM
FRONT 4 GIVES GIANTS A CHANCE TO BEAT ANYONE (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45807356/ns/sports-nfl/)



The Giants' front four is their great equalizer.

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Eli Manning can go from elite to
inept and back again, but if the front four is playing well, the Giants can win.
The wide receivers can play hacky-sack with the football, and the running backs
can battle injuries and mood swings, but if the front four is playing well, the
Giants can win. The rest of the defense can be lined up at the MRI machine, but
if the front four … you get the idea. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Justin Tuck. Jason Pierre-Paul.
Injured Osi Umenyiora. Interior linemen and role players Chris Canty, Dave
Tollefson, Linval Joseph. Honorary lineman Mathias Kiwanuka. There are more than
four of them, and they don’t always line up as a foursome, as the diagrams to
come will show.</p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>But we think of them as the Giants
front four, and not only have they accounted for 40 of the team’s 42 sacks, but
they have compensated for injuries at other positions by dropping into coverage
and acting as decoy defenders. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>In a season of injuries and
uncertainty, the Giants linemen have a good chance to drag their
not-always-cooperative teammates into the playoffs. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Sacking
Wounded
Every team must deal with injuries, but few teams in
history have had to deal with the number of injuries the Giants suffered on
defense this year. </p>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>At Football Outsiders, we use a
metric called Adjusted Games Lost (AGL) to determine how severe a team’s injury
situation has been. AGL separates starters and key reserves from subs, so an
injury to Umenyiora or another starter gets more weight than one to some
seldom-used backup. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It also accounts for weeks when a
player is listed as “questionable” or “probable” but still takes the field, so
when someone like Tuck shakes off a toe injury and takes the field in a limited
role, it counts as a partial injury. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>AGL is a great argument settler,
because it takes conversations past the “who cares about your whole linebacker
corps, we lost our punt returner” stage. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants are on pace to finish
the season with the third-highest defensive AGL of the last decade, behind only
the 2008 Lions (who went 0-16) and the 2009 Bills (who went 6-10 and got their
coach fired). Through Week 14, they lost the equivalent of 58.9 games by
starters to injuries. That means the Giants go into the average game missing
four defensive starters and key reserves. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>They have entered some games in
far worse shape. Cornerback Corey Webster and safety Antrel Rolle are the only
defenders to start all 15 games. The Giants lost top cornerback Terrell Thomas
to an ACL injury in the middle of training camp. The mix-and-match job at
linebacker has forced special teams ace Chase Blackburn to start a handful of
games, and undrafted rookie Mark Herzlich climbed all the way to the starting
middle linebacker job before suffering an injury of his own. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The front four has been hit as
hard as any other unit. Rookie tackle Marvin Austin was lost in training camp.
Tuck and Umenyiora have only taken a handful of snaps together. The front four
has been able to maintain its high standard of play because Perry Fewell has
found creative ways to use his best players, creating confusion and applying
pass pressure without resorting to rampant blitzing.</p>
<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Masters of
disguise
Let’s look at how Pierre-Paul and Tuck can create havoc
without going near the quarterback. Figure 1 (right) shows the Giants on third
down, near midfield, late in the first quarter against the Jets in their game
Saturday. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants start with Jason
Pierre-Paul (90), Dave Tollefson (71), Chris Canty (99), and Justin Tuck (91) on
the defensive line, with Michael Boley (59) and Jacquian Williams (57) at
linebacker. There is nothing unusual about this defensive front … yet. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Those squiggly lines on the
diagram mean the Giants will start shifting in an attempt to create chaos among
the Jets pass protectors. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span></p>

<table class="left" align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">


<tbody><tr>
<td>http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/_DailyStories/Giants-figure2.aim640.jpg</td></tr>
</tbody></table>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Figure 2 (left) shows where the
Giants end up after all that shifting. Boley and Williams are now defensive
ends. Tuck is right over the center, leaning back and forth, threatening the
A-gap. Pierre-Paul is just beside Tuck. The two pass rushers appear poised to
execute a double A-gap blitz, sometimes called a Fire or Fire-X blitz. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>That’s a lot of pass-rushing beef
stacked up in the middle, and when the television camera closes up on Mark
Sanchez, he has “that look” in his eyes as he calls out some adjustments. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tuck and Pierre-Paul do not blitz.
They drop into zone coverage when the ball is snapped. But Sanchez and the Jets
cannot take a chance. They pinch their protection, meaning that left tackle
D’Brickashaw Ferguson blocks Canty so the interior linemen are available to stop
Tuck and Pierre-Paul. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>That leaves Boley unblocked, and
he gets into the backfield in a hurry. Sanchez rushes his pass before tight end
Dustin Keller can turn to look for it, and the ball bounces off his helmet. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Officially, this play is not even
a blitz: the Giants rushed just four defenders. Tuck and Pierre-Paul created
pressure, not as rushers, but as decoys. A defensive call like this allows the
Giants to rattle the opposing quarterback while still keeping seven defenders
back in pass protection. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tucked into
coverage
You may be looking at those diagrams and thinking:
“boy, using Tuck in zone coverage is a crazy idea.” It is so crazy it has worked
throughout the season when Tuck has been healthy. In fact, Tuck dropped into
coverage numerous times against the Packers, causing confusion that led to the
rushed throws and sacks to keep the Giants in the game against the league’s
toughest offense.</p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span></p>

<table class="right" align="right" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">


<tbody><tr>
<td>http://nbcsportsmedia2.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/_DailyStories/Giants-figure3.aim640.jpg</td></tr>
</tbody></table>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Figure 3 (right) shows the Giants
trailing 28-27 midway through the fourth quarter. It is first and 10, and with
the Packers in a spread formation (the player in the backfield is actually
receiver Randall Cobb), the Giants counter with a three-man front. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Kiwanuka (94), nominally a
linebacker, is at right end, while Tuck is one yard behind the line of
scrimmage, standing up, and threatening the A-Gap. This is the middle of a long,
late-game drive, so Pierre-Paul and Joseph are getting a breather. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants hope to create pressure
using backup personnel and Tuck as a decoy, but it is a dangerous gambit: on
paper, Tuck against tight end Jermichael Finley (88) is a big mismatch. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tuck drops into coverage at the
snap, but his presence in the middle has the exact same effect it had against
the Jets. The center and left guard double-team Canty, while the right guard
stands and waits to make sure Tuck does not blitz. That wastes three blockers on
one player, creating one-on-one matchups for Tollefson and Kiwanuka. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tollefson, who has been subbing
along the Giants line since the 2007 Super Bowl season, is facing an
inexperienced right tackle. He has no trouble turning the corner, and with
Kiwanuka collapsing the other side, Tollefson makes an important sack. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The most interesting thing about
the play in Figure 3 is Finley’s response to Tuck. Finley is supposed to run a
quick hitch in the middle of the field, but when he sees Tuck, he appears to get
flummoxed. Finley collides with Tuck, then jostles with him as he tries to
provide Rodgers with a target. Finley is Rodgers’ second option on this pass,
but because the tight end does not anticipate Tuck’s presence, Rodgers has
nowhere to throw and must eat the football.

</p>
If Fewell had a healthy stable of linebackers, he probably would not send Tuck,
Pierre-Paul, and others into zone coverage quite so much. But by using his best
players as all-purpose threats, Fewell is creating the illusion that the Giants
have more manpower than they actually posess.

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It’s a smoke-and-mirrors game, but
Tuck’s experience, Pierre-Paul’s uncanny athleticism, and Fewell’s creativity
make it viable. And if the Giants can create pressure when Pierre-Paul is
resting and Tuck is dropping, imagine what can happen when everyone is doing
what they do best. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Healing
up
The Giants are not as banged up as they were a few weeks ago.
Boley is back after missing a few games with a hamstring injury. Rookie Prince
Amukamara has returned from a foot injury to provide some depth in the
secondary. Tuck’s toe does not appear to be bothering him. Umenyiora even plans
to test his injured ankle this week, though that sounds more like a tease than a
ray of hope. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tom Coughlin’s leg is healing
after a sideline collision, and you know the injury report has gotten out of
control when the coach is on it. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants recorded three sacks
the last time they faced the Cowboys, one of them by Pierre-Paul for a safety.
Pierre-Paul later blocked what would have been a game-tying field goal. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>If the Giants had not beaten the
Cowboys in that game, we would not be writing about them now. That win halted a
four-game losing streak and made this week’s do-or-die game possible. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It came on a night when the Giants
secondary could not stop anyone, running back Ahmad Bradshaw was suspended for
the first half, and Manning was scattershot until midway through the fourth
quarter. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants beat the Cowboys
because Pierre-Paul, Tuck, and the front four gave them a chance, and that
chance is now a chance to reach the playoffs. For the Giants, that’s the way it
always goes." </p>

gmen0820
12-29-2011, 02:37 PM
PFF and PFO are the two best football sites around. Nice posts RF

ELIistheFRANCHISE
12-29-2011, 02:42 PM
FRONT 4 GIVES GIANTS A CHANCE TO BEAT ANYONE (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45807356/ns/sports-nfl/)



The Giants' front four is their great equalizer.

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Eli Manning can go from elite to
inept and back again, but if the front four is playing well, the Giants can win.
The wide receivers can play hacky-sack with the football, and the running backs
can battle injuries and mood swings, but if the front four is playing well, the
Giants can win. The rest of the defense can be lined up at the MRI machine, but
if the front four … you get the idea. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Justin Tuck. Jason Pierre-Paul.
Injured Osi Umenyiora. Interior linemen and role players Chris Canty, Dave
Tollefson, Linval Joseph. Honorary lineman Mathias Kiwanuka. There are more than
four of them, and they don’t always line up as a foursome, as the diagrams to
come will show.</p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>But we think of them as the Giants
front four, and not only have they accounted for 40 of the team’s 42 sacks, but
they have compensated for injuries at other positions by dropping into coverage
and acting as decoy defenders. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>In a season of injuries and
uncertainty, the Giants linemen have a good chance to drag their
not-always-cooperative teammates into the playoffs. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Sacking
Wounded
Every team must deal with injuries, but few teams in
history have had to deal with the number of injuries the Giants suffered on
defense this year. </p>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>At Football Outsiders, we use a
metric called Adjusted Games Lost (AGL) to determine how severe a team’s injury
situation has been. AGL separates starters and key reserves from subs, so an
injury to Umenyiora or another starter gets more weight than one to some
seldom-used backup. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It also accounts for weeks when a
player is listed as “questionable” or “probable” but still takes the field, so
when someone like Tuck shakes off a toe injury and takes the field in a limited
role, it counts as a partial injury. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>AGL is a great argument settler,
because it takes conversations past the “who cares about your whole linebacker
corps, we lost our punt returner” stage. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants are on pace to finish
the season with the third-highest defensive AGL of the last decade, behind only
the 2008 Lions (who went 0-16) and the 2009 Bills (who went 6-10 and got their
coach fired). Through Week 14, they lost the equivalent of 58.9 games by
starters to injuries. That means the Giants go into the average game missing
four defensive starters and key reserves. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>They have entered some games in
far worse shape. Cornerback Corey Webster and safety Antrel Rolle are the only
defenders to start all 15 games. The Giants lost top cornerback Terrell Thomas
to an ACL injury in the middle of training camp. The mix-and-match job at
linebacker has forced special teams ace Chase Blackburn to start a handful of
games, and undrafted rookie Mark Herzlich climbed all the way to the starting
middle linebacker job before suffering an injury of his own. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The front four has been hit as
hard as any other unit. Rookie tackle Marvin Austin was lost in training camp.
Tuck and Umenyiora have only taken a handful of snaps together. The front four
has been able to maintain its high standard of play because Perry Fewell has
found creative ways to use his best players, creating confusion and applying
pass pressure without resorting to rampant blitzing.</p>
<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Masters of
disguise
Let’s look at how Pierre-Paul and Tuck can create havoc
without going near the quarterback. Figure 1 (right) shows the Giants on third
down, near midfield, late in the first quarter against the Jets in their game
Saturday. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants start with Jason
Pierre-Paul (90), Dave Tollefson (71), Chris Canty (99), and Justin Tuck (91) on
the defensive line, with Michael Boley (59) and Jacquian Williams (57) at
linebacker. There is nothing unusual about this defensive front … yet. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Those squiggly lines on the
diagram mean the Giants will start shifting in an attempt to create chaos among
the Jets pass protectors. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span></p>

<table class="left" align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">


<tbody><tr>
<td>http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/_DailyStories/Giants-figure2.aim640.jpg</td></tr>
</tbody></table>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Figure 2 (left) shows where the
Giants end up after all that shifting. Boley and Williams are now defensive
ends. Tuck is right over the center, leaning back and forth, threatening the
A-gap. Pierre-Paul is just beside Tuck. The two pass rushers appear poised to
execute a double A-gap blitz, sometimes called a Fire or Fire-X blitz. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>That’s a lot of pass-rushing beef
stacked up in the middle, and when the television camera closes up on Mark
Sanchez, he has “that look” in his eyes as he calls out some adjustments. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tuck and Pierre-Paul do not blitz.
They drop into zone coverage when the ball is snapped. But Sanchez and the Jets
cannot take a chance. They pinch their protection, meaning that left tackle
D’Brickashaw Ferguson blocks Canty so the interior linemen are available to stop
Tuck and Pierre-Paul. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>That leaves Boley unblocked, and
he gets into the backfield in a hurry. Sanchez rushes his pass before tight end
Dustin Keller can turn to look for it, and the ball bounces off his helmet. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Officially, this play is not even
a blitz: the Giants rushed just four defenders. Tuck and Pierre-Paul created
pressure, not as rushers, but as decoys. A defensive call like this allows the
Giants to rattle the opposing quarterback while still keeping seven defenders
back in pass protection. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tucked into
coverage
You may be looking at those diagrams and thinking:
“boy, using Tuck in zone coverage is a crazy idea.” It is so crazy it has worked
throughout the season when Tuck has been healthy. In fact, Tuck dropped into
coverage numerous times against the Packers, causing confusion that led to the
rushed throws and sacks to keep the Giants in the game against the league’s
toughest offense.</p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span></p>

<table class="right" align="right" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">


<tbody><tr>
<td>http://nbcsportsmedia2.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/_DailyStories/Giants-figure3.aim640.jpg</td></tr>
</tbody></table>


<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Figure 3 (right) shows the Giants
trailing 28-27 midway through the fourth quarter. It is first and 10, and with
the Packers in a spread formation (the player in the backfield is actually
receiver Randall Cobb), the Giants counter with a three-man front. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Kiwanuka (94), nominally a
linebacker, is at right end, while Tuck is one yard behind the line of
scrimmage, standing up, and threatening the A-Gap. This is the middle of a long,
late-game drive, so Pierre-Paul and Joseph are getting a breather. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants hope to create pressure
using backup personnel and Tuck as a decoy, but it is a dangerous gambit: on
paper, Tuck against tight end Jermichael Finley (88) is a big mismatch. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tuck drops into coverage at the
snap, but his presence in the middle has the exact same effect it had against
the Jets. The center and left guard double-team Canty, while the right guard
stands and waits to make sure Tuck does not blitz. That wastes three blockers on
one player, creating one-on-one matchups for Tollefson and Kiwanuka. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tollefson, who has been subbing
along the Giants line since the 2007 Super Bowl season, is facing an
inexperienced right tackle. He has no trouble turning the corner, and with
Kiwanuka collapsing the other side, Tollefson makes an important sack. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The most interesting thing about
the play in Figure 3 is Finley’s response to Tuck. Finley is supposed to run a
quick hitch in the middle of the field, but when he sees Tuck, he appears to get
flummoxed. Finley collides with Tuck, then jostles with him as he tries to
provide Rodgers with a target. Finley is Rodgers’ second option on this pass,
but because the tight end does not anticipate Tuck’s presence, Rodgers has
nowhere to throw and must eat the football.

</p>
If Fewell had a healthy stable of linebackers, he probably would not send Tuck,
Pierre-Paul, and others into zone coverage quite so much. But by using his best
players as all-purpose threats, Fewell is creating the illusion that the Giants
have more manpower than they actually posess.

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It’s a smoke-and-mirrors game, but
Tuck’s experience, Pierre-Paul’s uncanny athleticism, and Fewell’s creativity
make it viable. And if the Giants can create pressure when Pierre-Paul is
resting and Tuck is dropping, imagine what can happen when everyone is doing
what they do best. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Healing
up
The Giants are not as banged up as they were a few weeks ago.
Boley is back after missing a few games with a hamstring injury. Rookie Prince
Amukamara has returned from a foot injury to provide some depth in the
secondary. Tuck’s toe does not appear to be bothering him. Umenyiora even plans
to test his injured ankle this week, though that sounds more like a tease than a
ray of hope. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>Tom Coughlin’s leg is healing
after a sideline collision, and you know the injury report has gotten out of
control when the coach is on it. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants recorded three sacks
the last time they faced the Cowboys, one of them by Pierre-Paul for a safety.
Pierre-Paul later blocked what would have been a game-tying field goal. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>If the Giants had not beaten the
Cowboys in that game, we would not be writing about them now. That win halted a
four-game losing streak and made this week’s do-or-die game possible. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>It came on a night when the Giants
secondary could not stop anyone, running back Ahmad Bradshaw was suspended for
the first half, and Manning was scattershot until midway through the fourth
quarter. </p>

<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>The Giants beat the Cowboys
because Pierre-Paul, Tuck, and the front four gave them a chance, and that
chance is now a chance to reach the playoffs. For the Giants, that’s the way it
always goes." </p>
Nice RF

Ntegrase96
12-29-2011, 02:44 PM
With all due respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.

RoanokeFan
12-29-2011, 02:44 PM
PFF and PFO are the two best football sites around. Nice posts RF

Always good to get some educated insight that we don't normally see or think about.

RoanokeFan
12-29-2011, 02:50 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing. However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle. Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time? Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.

Ntegrase96
12-29-2011, 03:14 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing. However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle. Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time? Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.


I will stay tuned for sure. Maybe they just need to be healthy and motivated to show flashes of that great 07 playoff defense, but since the superbowl season the giants front four has been running on reputation alone based mostly on a 3 game span, especially the DEs. Osi and Tuck most likely haven't been the most productive duo in that span (hell DeMarcus Ware has a greater sack total than Osi and Tuck combined since superbowl 42) but they're still revered as some of the best in the league and a huge threat? Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have, but you'll never hear opposing fans recognize that, and it seems most media outlets don't either.

I respect the Giants defensive line, but I'm tired of hearing the typical scouting report on the Giants like it hasn't changed since 2007. The Giants are a completely different team now.

TrueBlue2180
12-29-2011, 03:22 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing. However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle. Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time? Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.


I will stay tuned for sure. Maybe they just need to be healthy and motivated to show flashes of that great 07 playoff defense, but since the superbowl season the giants front four has been running on reputation alone based mostly on a 3 game span, especially the DEs. Osi and Tuck most likely haven't been the most productive duo in that span (hell DeMarcus Ware has a greater sack total than Osi and Tuck combined since superbowl 42) but they're still revered as some of the best in the league and a huge threat? Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have, but you'll never hear opposing fans recognize that, and it seems most media outlets don't either.

I respect the Giants defensive line, but I'm tired of hearing the typical scouting report on the Giants like it hasn't changed since 2007. The Giants are a completely different team now.


Ware is one of, if not the, premier sack guys of this generation, so I'm not surprised. I would agree that the Giants d-line is overrated at this point, but they're still one of the top units. Keep in mind that Osi missed the entire 2008 season with a torn meniscus, and he's missed half of this season. When he was healthy last year he had 11 sacks and TEN (ten!) forced fumbles. Tuck's strength was always that he was an all around end, not just a pass rusher/sack guy. Obviously, health can't be an excuse in the discussion, because in order to be good you have to be on the field, but I think you're underestimating the line a little. He had 76 tackles last year (which is phenomenal for an end) to go with 11.5 sacks. JPP's 81 tackles to go with 15.5 sacks is just silly.

GiantWarfare
12-29-2011, 03:22 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing.* However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.*

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle.* Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time?* Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.*

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.
Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have

soon JPP will be in that group if not already

GiantWarfare
12-29-2011, 03:23 PM
btw awesome stuff Roa!

JJC7301
12-29-2011, 03:24 PM
I love X's and O's, so thanks. But the front four have not been the same over the past few years. Well, last year they did well with all the sacks they had, but I just feel that they should be even better. </P>


In fact, am I missing something here? It doesn't appear to me that we have been confusing opposing offenses too much this year at all.</P>

Ntegrase96
12-29-2011, 03:32 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing. However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle. Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time? Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.
Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have

soon JPP will be in that group if not already

He absolutely is. He's the only guy on defense that is going to go out and consistently be a game changer.

Fun possibility... this game could very well determine who gets DPOY.

joeybagadonutz23
12-29-2011, 03:49 PM
FRONT 4 GIVES GIANTS A CHANCE TO BEAT ANYONE (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45807356/ns/sports-nfl/)



<p class="textBodyBlack"><span id="byLine"></span>But we think of them as the Giants
front four, and not only have they accounted for 40 of the team’s 42 sacks,</p>

I love/hate that stat. Here's why. All I can think about is "what if we had an outstanding blitzing LB", well that would truly be a nightmare for the opposition.

But really, we have Kiwi and we have a very, very athletic Jaquain Williams.

JPP is already a freakin' nightmare by himself. WHY is there no scheming to get one of these LB's behind JPP and blitzing every once in a while. We'd have more than 2 sacks from the rest of the team- that's for sure.

RoanokeFan
12-29-2011, 04:28 PM
btw awesome stuff Roa!

[B]

RoanokeFan
12-29-2011, 04:31 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing. However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle. Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time? Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.


I will stay tuned for sure. Maybe they just need to be healthy and motivated to show flashes of that great 07 playoff defense, but since the superbowl season the giants front four has been running on reputation alone based mostly on a 3 game span, especially the DEs. Osi and Tuck most likely haven't been the most productive duo in that span (hell DeMarcus Ware has a greater sack total than Osi and Tuck combined since superbowl 42) but they're still revered as some of the best in the league and a huge threat? Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have, but you'll never hear opposing fans recognize that, and it seems most media outlets don't either.

I respect the Giants defensive line, but I'm tired of hearing the typical scouting report on the Giants like it hasn't changed since 2007. The Giants are a completely different team now.


I'm not a big stat guy but I think I'm right in saying we lead the NFL in sacks for a few weeks when we had at least two of the three top DE's playing. Then Tuck checked out for four or five games and even when he was playing he wasn't a factor, same for Osi. BUT, if they are healthy now and mentally fit, we could do some damage on Sunday.

I don't mean physical damage to Dallas players, just score wise.

gmen46
12-29-2011, 06:39 PM
With all do respect, I just don't see it. JPP has been phenomenal this year, but the front 4 of the Giants has seem to under perform since the superbowl run. Maybe it's the loss of spags or the loss of Strahan, but the front four of the Giants hasn't been the threat they were in the last 3 years.


Eli Manning has gotten exponentially better since the superbowl win, yet the Giants have one playoff loss to show for it in the last 3 years. Something is lacking, and I believe it's the front 4 underperforming-- the biggest factor that won you the superbowl in 07.


The loss, both physically and mentally, of Tuck and Umenyiora has been particularly vexing.* However, Tuck had a Come to Jesus meeting with TC and, say what you will, since then the old Tuck has returned.*

Now Osi is another story. mostly because of his public contract debacle.* Now could it be he's also had a chat with TC (or his agent) about his legacy (code for financial future) and finally realizes the better he plays down the stretch and into the playoffs the better position he will be in to negotiate at the appropriate time?* Osi's return to practice without a set back is a shock as far as I'm concerned.*

If we have a healthy Tuck and Umenyiora alongside JPP this will be a much different defensive game that a few weeks ago.

Stay tuned.


I will stay tuned for sure. Maybe they just need to be healthy and motivated to show flashes of that great 07 playoff defense, but since the superbowl season the giants front four has been running on reputation alone based mostly on a 3 game span, especially the DEs. Osi and Tuck most likely haven't been the most productive duo in that span (hell DeMarcus Ware has a greater sack total than Osi and Tuck combined since superbowl 42) but they're still revered as some of the best in the league and a huge threat? Eli Manning and the passing game is the biggest threat the Giants have, but you'll never hear opposing fans recognize that, and it seems most media outlets don't either.

I respect the Giants defensive line, but I'm tired of hearing the typical scouting report on the Giants like it hasn't changed since 2007. The Giants are a completely different team now.


Perhaps you mean 2008. Our defense played better, overall for the regular season, than was the case for all of 2007.

Also, never an excuse for team performance any given season, but if you are comparing Ware's sacks vs those of Osi and Tuckfor the past 4 years as a part of your argument that Giants' front 4 have been inferior to 08 or 07, you must acknowledge that Osi didn't even play the 08 season, and has missed 7 games this season and Tuck has missed 4.

Even so, they have combined for 5 fewer sacks combined than Ware.

Again, I'm not missing your point about how dominant Ware has been as a pass rusher the past 4 seasons, but comparing his total for that period against those of our boys, given they have missed what amounts to 1 entire season and 12 games of this season, your use of the stat seems irrelevant to your argument.

On the other hand, there is no argument from most of us that their line has been uneven in production the past 3 seasons. In 09 it was pretty atrocious for most of the season, which accounted for most of the collapse that year.

And, in reality, nobody--not Giants fans, the organization, sports pundits in print and TV-- was touting their front 4 that year as anything but terrible, so I think your point of them "living off a 3 game run" for the past few years is just TINY bit overstated.

And the premise of this article is that, while the defense has looked uneven in its effectiveness all year, there have been some mitigating circumstances, and they do an excellent job of supporting their conclusions with more than "Well. they had a lot of injuries".

I think the article is very eye-opening, especially for all those "FEWELL M UST GO!!" Giants fans.

And the concluding point of it is that if, in fact, Osi, Tuck are healthy and play this Sunday--as it now appears is the case--along with JPP, Kiwi and Fewell's creative game plan, we should see the best defense for the year from them.

If that's the case, Eli still needs to have a game like he's had prior to the last 2, Nicks and Cruz still need to NOT drop the ball, and our punter still needs to punt away from Dez.

All the same, if we have the defense we saw vs the Jets, or better, I go from liking our chances for Sunday and beyond, to LOVING our chances.

It's difficult for Cowboys and Giants fans who had the pleasure of watching that December 1993 game between us, not to be reminded of that this week. I expect to see something similar to that one, only with a different--and better--outcome, of course!

Happy New Year, Cowboy friend.