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ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 05:39 PM
680

*Sorry for the size. Click it to expand. Don't know how to make it bigger.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 05:40 PM
Ps:

As for that short arm "red flag," for those keeping score at home, Justin Pugh has same arm length as 3-time All-Pro OT Joe Thomas #32.5 - From Art Stapleton

TheEnigma
04-27-2013, 05:45 PM
Ps:

As for that short arm "red flag," for those keeping score at home, Justin Pugh has same arm length as 3-time All-Pro OT Joe Thomas #32.5 - From Art Stapleton

Joe Thomas is almost 6'7 though while Pugh is about 6'4 so you do have to factor that in the equation. The short arms doesn't mean he is disqualified from playing OT but it's going to be an uphill battle.

RagTime Blue
04-27-2013, 05:48 PM
Everyone wants linebackers, but just because we draft them doesn't mean they help us out.

See Dillard, Wilkerson, Greg Jones, and Sintim. Paysinger might make the list next year.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 05:50 PM
Everyone wants linebackers, but just because we draft them doesn't mean they help us out.

See Dillard, Wilkerson, Greg Jones, and Sintim. Paysinger might make the list next year.

they didnt draft paysinger.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 05:50 PM
Joe Thomas is almost 6'7 though while Pugh is about 6'4 so you do have to factor that in the equation. The short arms doesn't mean he is disqualified from playing OT but it's going to be an uphill battle.

Fair point, but the main knock on short arms would be keeping an opponent at bay and being tall doesn't exactly give one an advantage in that regard. It certainly isn't a GOOD thing to have shorter arms, but I don't think its as big of a hindrance as some seem to be making it.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 05:54 PM
As for the point of this thread.

Cant criticize a politician unless you are a politician?
Cant criticize a sports official unless you are an official?
Cant criticize a criminal unless you are a criminal?


Its a logical fallacy to say you have to have the same experience to criticize someone of their opinion.

TheEnigma
04-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Fair point, but the main knock on short arms would be keeping an opponent at bay and being tall doesn't exactly give one an advantage in that regard. It certainly isn't a GOOD thing to have shorter arms, but I don't think its as big of a hindrance as some seem to be making it.

It's generally easier to get past players who are shorter on the edge but that does depend on the angles they take with their footwork. Pugh is fortunately technically sound with that but technique only gets you so far in this league. He will be an average to slightly above average RT in this league but fortunately, we don't have one of those on the roster already haha. I just disagree with most and think he has a higher ceiling on the inside.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:09 PM
As for the point of this thread.

Cant criticize a politician unless you are a politician?
Cant criticize a sports official unless you are an official?
Cant criticize a criminal unless you are a criminal?


Its a logical fallacy to say you have to have the same experience to criticize someone of their opinion.

I think that's a misinterpretation of the point. From what I'm reading is people don't like the positions we're drafting or the players we're drafting. It seems as though they are upset because they think we should draft, say, LB instead of QB because that's where they (the fan) sees a hole and there is a specific player they (the fan) covet.

And I get that. We're fans, we watch, we know where the team is lacking etc etc. We don't (for the most part, as fans) spend 40+ hours a week scouting players, watching tape, assessing the long term vs short term pros/cons of different positions, players, salary etc etc.

Jerry Reese and Co. spend their LIVES doing it. Its not part time. Its not just "oh hey, draft is in a few months! lemme peep these youtube vids or Google so police reports".

They spend hours, weeks, months, and, in some cases, years scouting these players and learning as much as they can. The front office (Coughlin included) also has a pretty good idea of what types of player/personality is coachable, moldable, will translate to the NFL life-style etc.

As a "for instance", we may brush off an Ogletree's off-field problems based on what we read about, but Reese and Co. interviewed him and got more facts than most of us, I'm sure, and talked to coaches and others. Through all that it can give them a pretty solid understanding of what the player might contribute, both positively and negatively, to a locker-room.

So can only a baker criticize a baker? Of course not. People know what they like the taste of. But if you know you like a particular baker's cakes and you yourself really have no idea what ingredients are needed, let alone how to mix it together to create the cake you eat and enjoy, then you really should keep your thoughts to yourself when at the grocery store with said baker because he likely has a better idea of what he needs than you, a man who's never even at the least worked in a bakery.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:15 PM
It's generally easier to get past players who are shorter on the edge but that does depend on the angles they take with their footwork. Pugh is fortunately technically sound with that but technique only gets you so far in this league. He will be an average to slightly above average RT in this league but fortunately, we don't have one of those on the roster already haha. I just disagree with most and think he has a higher ceiling on the inside.

That's actually mu thought/hope is that we move him to guard (maybe center if he can pull it off). I know the criticism can come of "why take a guard that high when Flyod's available!" but, despite me really wanting Floyd there in those circumstances, I also wanted Warmack and would have been more than content with Warmack. If Pugh, as a guard or center, can be equal to or better than Warmack then I think it'll work out fine.

Again, I defer to the front office on something like this. I really don't think they would reach for a tackle/guard, likely to be guard over a d-tackle if they really had the d0tackle that much higher on their board, if at all higher. Look at the Prince draft. We needed a RB, everyone thought we were going RB, Ingram falls, ideal situation, Thomas I don't think was hurt, Webby was still lights out, Ross in nickle, seemingly set a CB....we take Prince.

Right call then, gotta think right call now. Time will tell, but that's just my thoughts.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 06:22 PM
So can only a baker criticize a baker? Of course not. People know what they like the taste of. But if you know you like a particular baker's cakes and you yourself really have no idea what ingredients are needed, let alone how to mix it together to create the cake you eat and enjoy, then you really should keep your thoughts to yourself when at the grocery store with said baker because he likely has a better idea of what he needs than you, a man who's never even at the least worked in a bakery.

Lol, so you are apparently disagreeing with yourself.

You cant criticize a baker unless you worked in a bakery. Uh huh. If he puts poo in your cake you should be thrilled

gmen0820
04-27-2013, 06:23 PM
Lol, so you are apparently disagreeing with yourself.Lol

RagTime Blue
04-27-2013, 06:30 PM
I think the problem is the same every year. We all have favorite players that get passed up by Reese & co.

Odds are we'll never know the reason they passed on someone, so we're forced to speculate that they botched it up by oversight.

And if our guy turns out to be better than theirs, well it's OBVIOUS that's what happened (red ink).

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:32 PM
Lol, so you are apparently disagreeing with yourself.

You cant criticize a baker unless you worked in a bakery. Uh huh. If he puts poo in your cake you should be thrilled

No. I'm not. I think you're still mis-understanding me.

We can all have opinions. I just think people slagging this draft are being short-sighted and don't have a true idea on how to build and develop a roster.

A kid can have the opinion that vegetables are "yuckie" and that he should be able to eat candy all day. That's fine. But its ignorant and short sighted because the kid doesn't realize the nutritional value of the vegetables and how it will help his body and immune system grow.

Just like posters can have the opinion that the draft is bad and we should have taken other positions or players. That opinion is likely coming from a place of ignorance because they don't know half as much about these players or roster development and growth as they would like to believe. Hell, NFL front offices don't have it down pat, but some, the Giants especially, have a pretty good handle on how to be as successful as possible without an exact science.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:34 PM
And for the record, guy....I'm not saying I know more than anyone else. I know less than most of you about the draft and the players coming out of it. But I'm wise enough to know my shortcomings and that the people in our war-room definitely know more than me or 99% of this board that's asking "wtf Reese is thinking".

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 06:37 PM
No. I'm not. I think you're still mis-understanding me.

We can all have opinions.

Apparently we cant, because we havent also been GMs. Or was that not what your post said

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:39 PM
You cant criticize a baker unless you worked in a bakery. Uh huh. If he puts poo in your cake you should be thrilled

That totally disregards the part about "liking the baker's cake".

If you want to make the case that some are exposing that "soylent green is now made with people" and others, like myself, are blind to this fact, I would argue that the recipe isn't changing to the cake I eat/enjoy and there never was or has been "poo" in my cake.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 06:53 PM
Apparently we cant, because we havent also been GMs. Or was that not what your post said

Well, if you want to read it that way you can. But you're misinterpreting me. Perhaps for the sake of it or perhaps because you disagree with my premise that people mad at this draft might be cultivating their anger from ignorance and short-sightedness. Perhaps you're mad at this draft and are taking my position as personal attack on you (which, I can assure you, it isn't as I don't know your personal opinion).

I'll try one more time before just settling that we disagree (though to be honest your attempt to try and prove a fallacy in my argument is rather irritating):

We can all have opinions. I think its great.

I do, however, think some opinions are more informed than others. I definitely think Jerry Reese's is more informed than yours or mine.

I think that those questioning what Reese was thinking in this draft are likely short-sighted and don't know the first thing about building a roster at a professional level. (*Edit OR WHAT REESE"S LONG TERM PLAN IS FOR THE TEAM).

But based on your argument to me, I should give the kid up the street's opinion the same respect as that of my gastroenterologist about the blood in my stool the because he watches House and saw an episode or two where House dismissed it as anal fissures.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 07:02 PM
Or we have different views on players who he drafts.

There are plenty of people here who hated picks like Sintim, or Bomar, or Barden, etc.

Some of us spend a lot of time looking at players and seeing if they fit.

If Reese has a different view than us, fine, but to say we should just support everything he does because its his job is ridiculous.

ImElectric2
04-27-2013, 07:11 PM
Or we have different views on players who he drafts.

There are plenty of people here who hated picks like Sintim, or Bomar, or Barden, etc.

Some of us spend a lot of time looking at players and seeing if they fit.

If Reese has a different view than us, fine, but to say we should just support everything he does because its his job is ridiculous.

Ok. I think that last sentence may have been the disconnect. I don't think that way and if it came across like that it was unintentional.

I'm not into blind support for anything for any reason.

I guess a better way to state my case would be "If this draft is so bizarre to some of you perhaps it is because Reese is looking at it from a different perspective with different long term and short term goals in mind than what you think/thought."

Case and point would be our 4th round pick. Seems odd to some (me too, even) but based on the whole "who's a baker/who's not" argument, I gotta believe Reese isn't just throwing a dart at a board. He has experience in the field and proven success. There's probably more to it than what we, as fans, may consider.

I don't think this draft is a clear indication that he's driving the ship towards an iceberg, just taking a different course than what many wanted or were thinking.

TAILGATIN'
04-27-2013, 07:12 PM
Speaking of cakes n poo.. this draft stinks like a poo cake. Period. How can anyone who knows college football support these picks? You're freakin kidding yourself. Moore was the one good pick. There's been tons if proven talent on the boards that Reese decided to overlook. Seems like they're all gambling projects. I hope I'm wrong. I've always supported reeses picks but thus year was a huge let down.

FBomb
04-27-2013, 07:13 PM
Or we have different views on players who he drafts.

There are plenty of people here who hated picks like Sintim, or Bomar, or Barden, etc.

Some of us spend a lot of time looking at players and seeing if they fit.

If Reese has a different view than us, fine, but to say we should just support everything he does because its his job is ridiculous.

I don't think he's saying that at all.......I believe he's saying that, based on experience, Reese's opinion on drafting players holds more weight than fans on a MB.

BTW....I think I have a new favorite poster!!!

FBomb
04-27-2013, 07:15 PM
Speaking of cakes n poo.. this draft stinks like a poo cake. Period. How can anyone who knows college football support these picks? You're freakin kidding yourself. Moore was the one good pick. There's been tons if proven talent on the boards that Reese decided to overlook. Seems like they're all gambling projects. I hope I'm wrong. I've always supported reeses picks but thus year was a huge let down.

It's only a "let down" if these picks don't contribute to winning. It's a little early for that yet.

TAILGATIN'
04-27-2013, 07:26 PM
It's only a "let down" if these picks don't contribute to winning. It's a little early for that yet.
Hence me saying I hope I'm wrong. You can act like you're ok w these picks, or maybe you actually are, but I think it's been a huge disappointment n so has everyone I've spoken to. Obviously it's early, but we passed up some great talent more than three times and traded a pick for a qb who's going to do what for us? We r all entitled to our opinions and this is just mine... terrible draft.