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View Full Version : Reality - Linebacker and Corner were already set before the draft, NOT need positions



EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 07:42 PM
I don't know why everyone is screaming for a linebacker or corner....neither position was a need

SLB - Rivers/Kiwi
MLB - Connor/Herzlich
WLB - Williams/Paysinger

Outside of Ogletree, no other linebacker in this draft would start over Rivers/Connor/Williams.


Corner - Prince/Webster/Hosley/Ross/Thomas

We already spent high picks in the 2011 (Prince) and 2012 (Hosley) drafts on young corners. You have to give these guys a chance to grow. Webster is counted on to bounce back. Ross is very underrated as a #4 corner - look at the 2nd half of 2011 especially the SB run, he was practically lights out for us, and he was starting then.


Our linebackers were hurt last year because our DTs were getting blown off the ball and not eating up space. Our corners were hurt last year because our DTs were getting zero push up the middle and QBs threw from a clean pocket. Our front office realized that, and went all in to fix the DT position, feeling that it will directly improve the LBs and CBs.

Cloud57
04-27-2013, 07:45 PM
None of those guys are good to be starters, we already have the 31st ranked defense

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 07:45 PM
Arthur Brown would start over Connor.

I argued awhile ago that they probably wouldnt draft or didnt need a CB, at least not this season, but LB a couple guys could have stepped in and started.

FIFTY6G-MAN
04-27-2013, 07:48 PM
None of those guys are good to be starters, we already have the 31st ranked defenseI think with a quicker pass rush, that stat would change. More effective pass rush = Lb'ers can concentrate on run 1st and with that comes the secondary being able to position themselves for the pass. I think If our pass rush gets better the rest will fall into line.

Carter.525
04-27-2013, 07:48 PM
honestly.. is there a group of worse starting LBs in the league?

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 07:50 PM
Arthur Brown would start over Connor.

I argued awhile ago that they probably wouldnt draft or didnt need a CB, at least not this season, but LB a couple guys could have stepped in and started.


Absolutely not. Connor with his experience, smarts, and run-stopping ability is fine at MLB.

Arthur Brown would have been a lateral move.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 07:50 PM
honestly.. is there a group of worse starting LBs in the league?

No, and I dont think its even close.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 07:51 PM
Absolutely not. Connor with his experience, smarts, and run-stopping ability is fine at MLB.

Arthur Brown would have been a lateral move.

Connor the guy on his third team in three years? Yea hes a stud.

Arthur Brown will go to multiple probowls.

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 07:51 PM
None of those guys are good to be starters, we already have the 31st ranked defense


Because our DTs sucked. In a 4-3 defense, when your DTs suck, it will make your LBs/CBs look bad.

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 07:52 PM
honestly.. is there a group of worse starting LBs in the league?


They were hurt last year by Blackburn and Boley. Both were awful. Neither are on the team.

Losing Blackburn/Boley = addition by subtraction.

Simply not having those 2 guys starting, already improves the LB core by a lot.

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 07:54 PM
Connor the guy on his third team in three years? Yea hes a stud.

Arthur Brown will go to multiple probowls.



The reason he's on his 3rd team, is because his 2nd team played a 3-4 defense which he doesn't fit.

DVision
04-27-2013, 07:54 PM
Connor the guy on his third team in three years? Yea hes a stud.

Arthur Brown will go to multiple probowls.

I think Connor will be an upgrade over Blackburn, but Brown would have been a stud!!

myles2424
04-27-2013, 07:58 PM
Our LBs suck & can't stay healthy....there's a reason their original teams were ok with them leaving...
CBs, we only have 1 good one...if your ok with this, so be it..

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 08:00 PM
The reason he's on his 3rd team, is because his 2nd team played a 3-4 defense which he doesn't fit.

You mean the cowboys? Who are moving to a 4-3? Yea sure, lets say they cut him before they realized he would fit.

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 08:00 PM
Our LBs suck & can't stay healthy....there's a reason their original teams were ok with them leaving...
CBs, we only have 1 good one...if your ok with this, so be it..


Both units looked worse because of how inept our DL was.

You fix the DL, you directly improve both units.

We have talent at LB and CB.

EliManningUp
04-27-2013, 08:01 PM
You mean the cowboys? Who are moving to a 4-3? Yea sure, lets say they cut him before they realized he would fit.


The Cowboys were already deep at ILB. They had Lee, Carter, and Sims, 3 very talented players.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 08:04 PM
The Cowboys were already deep at ILB. They had Lee, Carter, and Sims, 3 very talented players.

Right, so he got cut because he isnt as good as the other LBs on their roster.

Just like he is nowhere near as good as Arthur Brown

giant-4-life
04-27-2013, 08:13 PM
None of those guys are good to be starters, we already have the 31st ranked defense

LOL..31st by who's standards? if you have a team the isn't exactly the best, but have cohesion, they can get anything done.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 08:15 PM
LOL..31st by who's standards?

by yards

TAILGATIN'
04-27-2013, 08:21 PM
I don't know why everyone is screaming for a linebacker or corner....neither position was a need

SLB - Rivers/Kiwi
MLB - Connor/Herzlich
WLB - Williams/Paysinger

Outside of Ogletree, no other linebacker in this draft would start over Rivers/Connor/Williams.


Corner - Prince/Webster/Hosley/Ross/Thomas

We already spent high picks in the 2011 (Prince) and 2012 (Hosley) drafts on young corners. You have to give these guys a chance to grow. Webster is counted on to bounce back. Ross is very underrated as a #4 corner - look at the 2nd half of 2011 especially the SB run, he was practically lights out for us, and he was starting then.


Our linebackers were hurt last year because our DTs were getting blown off the ball and not eating up space. Our corners were hurt last year because our DTs were getting zero push up the middle and QBs threw from a clean pocket. Our front office realized that, and went all in to fix the DT position, feeling that it will directly improve the LBs and CBs.
Thank you, Im hopeful most fans already knew this info and agree that we still need help in all 3 spots. Any real news?

TAILGATIN'
04-27-2013, 08:22 PM
We have talent at LB and CB.
The Giants, right?

giantsfam04
04-27-2013, 09:19 PM
Right, so he got cut because he isnt as good as the other LBs on their roster.

Just like he is nowhere near as good as Arthur Brown

Arthur Brown is not a MLB.

tikiandphil
04-27-2013, 09:23 PM
I don't know why everyone is screaming for a linebacker or corner....neither position was a need

SLB - Rivers/Kiwi
MLB - Connor/Herzlich
WLB - Williams/Paysinger

Outside of Ogletree, no other linebacker in this draft would start over Rivers/Connor/Williams.


Corner - Prince/Webster/Hosley/Ross/Thomas

We already spent high picks in the 2011 (Prince) and 2012 (Hosley) drafts on young corners. You have to give these guys a chance to grow. Webster is counted on to bounce back. Ross is very underrated as a #4 corner - look at the 2nd half of 2011 especially the SB run, he was practically lights out for us, and he was starting then.


Our linebackers were hurt last year because our DTs were getting blown off the ball and not eating up space. Our corners were hurt last year because our DTs were getting zero push up the middle and QBs threw from a clean pocket. Our front office realized that, and went all in to fix the DT position, feeling that it will directly improve the LBs and CBs.

Are you allowed to be this rational on the message boards during the draft?

Talorin2
04-27-2013, 09:36 PM
Reality, you are talking to a close-minded set of guys that feel they are better than the people that Reese has working for him. They will spit venom at anyone that they did not fall in love with. I recall a cluster of linebackers like 2 years ago these same peeps were saying we HAD to have. Most of those LB's ended up not panning out. I like the fact that Reese is keeping our depth fresh, because that is how you win championships.

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 09:40 PM
Arthur Brown is not a MLB.

Well when the ravens play a 3 man front, he is playing ILB....

So yes, he is.

myles2424
04-27-2013, 09:43 PM
Both units looked worse because of how inept our DL was.

You fix the DL, you directly improve both units.

We have talent at LB and CB.

Ooh, so our Lbs are actually good? & the bengals and panthers were happy to get rid of them?? Ooh ok, I feel much better now that you cleared that up

giantsfam04
04-27-2013, 09:48 PM
Well when the ravens play a 3 man front, he is playing ILB....

So yes, he is.

when do we play a 3 man front

slipknottin
04-27-2013, 09:50 PM
when do we play a 3 man front

So he can play ILB in a 3-4, and OLB in a 4-3, but he cant play MLB in a 43?

Bet you he plays MLB for the Ravens often in a 43 too.

"He played inside and outside linebacker, but the Ravens see him fitting as an inside backer within their scheme" - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Trade-Up-To-Select-LB-Arthur-Brown-/9fe7e4a9-2ed0-4a54-be94-a5b929beb896


Or how about this, from the Ravens FO - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/DeCosta_A_Brown_Was_One_Of_Best_LBs_In_Draft/00d18a30-18d8-48a2-8e73-739df4b822ef

"we thought Brown was one of the best inside linebackers in this draft"

Redeyejedi
04-27-2013, 10:02 PM
So he can play ILB in a 3-4, and OLB in a 4-3, but he cant play MLB in a 43?

Bet you he plays MLB for the Ravens often in a 43 too.

"He played inside and outside linebacker, but the Ravens see him fitting as an inside backer within their scheme" - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Trade-Up-To-Select-LB-Arthur-Brown-/9fe7e4a9-2ed0-4a54-be94-a5b929beb896


Or how about this, from the Ravens FO - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/DeCosta_A_Brown_Was_One_Of_Best_LBs_In_Draft/00d18a30-18d8-48a2-8e73-739df4b822ef

"we thought Brown was one of the best inside linebackers in this draft"Why cant Arthur Brown play MLB he stacks and sheds as good as any LB in the draft

speed3freak
04-27-2013, 10:08 PM
Why cant Arthur Brown play MLB he stacks and sheds as good as any LB in the draft

Agreed, Brown could have definitely played in the middle for us. I am not one to question Reese, but Brown would have been a significant upgrade. Really surprised we passed on him.

BlueBlooded1979
04-27-2013, 10:27 PM
LB is one thing, in this defense you can hide your LB with DL play. Hankins and Joeseph will make them look better.

The CBs are a wreck. Amukamara and Hosely are the only guys signed for 2014 worth mentioning. Webby, Ross and T2 are on 1 year deals and there is no one in the hopper. This was a solid CB draft and we failed to take advantage.

giantsfam04
04-28-2013, 09:32 AM
So he can play ILB in a 3-4, and OLB in a 4-3, but he cant play MLB in a 43?

Bet you he plays MLB for the Ravens often in a 43 too.

"He played inside and outside linebacker, but the Ravens see him fitting as an inside backer within their scheme" - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Trade-Up-To-Select-LB-Arthur-Brown-/9fe7e4a9-2ed0-4a54-be94-a5b929beb896


Or how about this, from the Ravens FO - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/DeCosta_A_Brown_Was_One_Of_Best_LBs_In_Draft/00d18a30-18d8-48a2-8e73-739df4b822ef

"we thought Brown was one of the best inside linebackers in this draft"

They thought he was our FO didn't not to mention they have massive bodies in the DL that can help him. Our DL last year was not good, he would have been wasted here.

B&RWarrior
04-28-2013, 12:03 PM
I don't know why everyone is screaming for a linebacker or corner....neither position was a need

SLB - Rivers/Kiwi
MLB - Connor/Herzlich
WLB - Williams/Paysinger

Outside of Ogletree, no other linebacker in this draft would start over Rivers/Connor/Williams.


Corner - Prince/Webster/Hosley/Ross/Thomas

We already spent high picks in the 2011 (Prince) and 2012 (Hosley) drafts on young corners. You have to give these guys a chance to grow. Webster is counted on to bounce back. Ross is very underrated as a #4 corner - look at the 2nd half of 2011 especially the SB run, he was practically lights out for us, and he was starting then.


Our linebackers were hurt last year because our DTs were getting blown off the ball and not eating up space. Our corners were hurt last year because our DTs were getting zero push up the middle and QBs threw from a clean pocket. Our front office realized that, and went all in to fix the DT position, feeling that it will directly improve the LBs and CBs.

THIS +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

B&RWarrior
04-28-2013, 12:14 PM
All I hear is Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown. Arthur Brown would have been getting engulfed by all those linemen that our Dline let get to the second level on running plays last year. Ravens have a stout middle that allow him to go and make plays, so please don't look at his production this year in Baltimore and think it translates to what he would do in a Giants uniform- different system, different personnel, different results.

We got what we NEEDED to get a DT that can clog the running lanes and take on multiple blockers. I like Brown, but no way would I have chose him over Hankins in the second.

idiotekniQues
04-28-2013, 12:34 PM
All I hear is Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown. Arthur Brown would have been getting engulfed by all those linemen that our Dline let get to the second level on running plays last year. Ravens have a stout middle that allow him to go and make plays, so please don't look at his production this year in Baltimore and think it translates to what he would do in a Giants uniform- different system, different personnel, different results.

We got what we NEEDED to get a DT that can clog the running lanes and take on multiple blockers. I like Brown, but no way would I have chose him over Hankins in the second.

exactly. hankins should get a lot of double teams and take them on, leaving room for our LB's to work. it starts in the trenches in a 4-3 and they just weren't that good last year. sure would a patrick willis help us out? hell yeah, but there were no patrick willis's in this draft

ironfox
04-28-2013, 01:22 PM
thats why we went heavy on the dl paticulary at dt. if the line plays better the linebackets will too. ray lewis was awful after siragussa left and his production picked back up when he played behind ngata

joemorrisforprez
04-28-2013, 01:28 PM
None of those guys are good to be starters, we already have the 31st ranked defense

This.

Sometimes a linebacker needs to shoot through a gap, blow up a blocking scheme, or seal an edge.

J-Will is the only guy that has the speed to pursue RBs and TEs....and he is neutralized by blockers.

Rivers cannot be considered a good linebacker. He is simply not on the field enough. I think it's completely premature to assume he can stay on the field for an entire season. And given how many times he's been knocked on his *** from blockers, I question his field vision.

Paysinger and Herzlich are average, at best.

If career stats are any indication, it's debatable whether Dan Connor is an upgrade over Blackburn.

Duckdownman
04-28-2013, 01:55 PM
Because our DTs sucked. In a 4-3 defense, when your DTs suck, it will make your LBs/CBs look bad.

COMPLETLY disagree. When your DTs suck is when a MLB can really put up good stats (especially tackles). When the front (3 or 4) aren't stopping the run its the 2nd lines chance to shine. Look at all the lb's who have high tackles on either bad teams or teams with no push up front.

myles2424
04-28-2013, 01:59 PM
All I hear is Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown, Arthur Brown. Arthur Brown would have been getting engulfed by all those linemen that our Dline let get to the second level on running plays last year. Ravens have a stout middle that allow him to go and make plays, so please don't look at his production this year in Baltimore and think it translates to what he would do in a Giants uniform- different system, different personnel, different results.

We got what we NEEDED to get a DT that can clog the running lanes and take on multiple blockers. I like Brown, but no way would I have chose him over Hankins in the second.
I'm sorry but fixing the Dline problem against the run would've been much easier than hoping one of these LBs can actually play....I'm going franchise MLB that's on the field %100 of the time over a rotational DT...

Duckdownman
04-28-2013, 02:00 PM
Connor the guy on his third team in three years? Yea hes a stud.

Arthur Brown will go to multiple probowls.

I'm with Slip here. I actually like Conner and think if he stays healthy has potential. Now, with that said, I'd much rather have brown. I really think Conner will have a solid year with us as long as he doesn't get hurt, which is part of the problem. But if we are looking for above solid play I'd take brown. Yes he's an unproven rookie and none of know what he will do in the league but we do already know what type of player Conner is. At best he can be very, very solid. Brown I feel at best will be a pro bowler.

nycsportzfan
04-28-2013, 02:26 PM
and quarterback wasen't set???lol

joemorrisforprez
04-28-2013, 02:27 PM
COMPLETLY disagree. When your DTs suck is when a MLB can really put up good stats (especially tackles). When the front (3 or 4) aren't stopping the run its the 2nd lines chance to shine. Look at all the lb's who have high tackles on either bad teams or teams with no push up front.


I'm sorry but fixing the Dline problem against the run would've been much easier than hoping one of these LBs can actually play....I'm going franchise MLB that's on the field 0 of the time over a rotational DT...

We're going to have to hope that Dan Connor takes it to another level in 2013. It's debatable whether he's better than Blackburn at this point. He's a couple years younger, but there's nothing on his statline that suggests he's an improvement over Chase.

Most recently, in 2012, Connor had 56 combined tackles, v. 98 for Chase. Granted, Dallas had a better overall defense, whereas Chase was forced to cover alot more ground. And there is the difference between the systems as well.

Maybe Connor will shine in Fewell's system. Let's hope.

Redeyejedi
04-28-2013, 02:57 PM
Arthur Brown would start over Connor.

I argued awhile ago that they probably wouldnt draft or didnt need a CB, at least not this season, but LB a couple guys could have stepped in and started.I dont think Corner was a have to get but corner is a spot that drafting 1 if value is there is a good move