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View Full Version : Are Right Tackles regaining value?



TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 11:47 AM
The blind side. Itís a movie. Itís the left tackleís responsibility to protect. But is it overvalued?

To begin, Iíd like to admit that I came into this project slightly biased as I believe the swing toward the passing game in the NFL necessitates a team has two good offensive tackles, not just one. The old adage that you put your best pass protector at left tackle (the blind side) and your mauling run blocker at right tackle (teams used to run to the right more often) is outdated.

Iím also of the belief that scouting jargon such as, ďheís a right tackle onlyĒ no longer holds water as NFL offenses are less predictable with regard to run direction, while NFL defenses are more unpredictable with their dispersing of pass rushing talent. In other words, the left and right tackles both need to run block and pass block with equal acumen.

Read more... (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/examining-pressure-are-left-tackles-overvalued/)

TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 11:50 AM
This really puts the Justin Pugh selection in another perspective. If one is to believe this article (why not?) and the statistics that show majority of the pressure comes from the right tackle position, we could be seeing a trend for the importance of having bookend tackles.

PBTimmons
05-03-2013, 12:07 PM
I was reading an article in a recent SI and they basically said the same thing without stats to back it up. It seems the 'Parcells-ian' way of building a team may be on its way out. IE. build your team around 3 players: 1 QB, 1 LT and 1 Pass Rusher.

I'm of the opinion that: Take (1) 'Worst team in the NFL' ADD (1) Rookie 'stud' LT and you don't have an overnight playoff team.

As much as the Chiefs have done, they didn't need nor did they improve their team by taking Eric Fisher. I believe they would have been better served taking different guy.

nhpgiantsfan
05-03-2013, 12:09 PM
The left tackle is still more important because like you said he is protecting the QB from his blind side (assuming your QB is right handed). So in the Giants' case LT is far more important. I don't have any data to support it, but I would guess that far more strip sacks come from the QB's blind side. Thus the reason you want your best at LT. It makes sense since there is more of a chance for the QB to protect the football when he can see the blitz coming from the right side.

TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 12:14 PM
The left tackle is still more important because like you said he is protecting the QB from his blind side (assuming your QB is right handed). So in the Giants' case LT is far more important. I don't have any data to support it, but I would guess that far more strip sacks come from the QB's blind side. Thus the reason you want your best at LT. It makes sense since there is more of a chance for the QB to protect the football when he can see the blitz coming from the right side.

I would have thought that same thing but it's really not as much as we believed.

- Since 2008, pressures from left tackle resulted in a sack and forced fumble only 1.9 percent more than pressures from right tackle. That’s good for less than four forced fumbles per season. As much as the blind side strip sack sticks in our memory banks, it only occurs slightly more than the forced fumble from the front side.

fansince69
05-03-2013, 12:16 PM
The left tackle is still more important because like you said he is protecting the QB from his blind side (assuming your QB is right handed). So in the Giants' case LT is far more important. I don't have any data to support it, but I would guess that far more strip sacks come from the QB's blind side. Thus the reason you want your best at LT. It makes sense since there is more of a chance for the QB to protect the football when he can see the blitz coming from the right side.I agree with this to a point.....I will ask 1 question.....Osi's claim to fame was the strip sack ...Strahahn was, I think a consensus better player......which player would you want your better tackle going against?

TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 12:20 PM
Aren't we also switching JPP to LDE? Maybe it's less to do with having our best run stopper there but to also give him better chances to pass rush a weaker pass protector?

TheAnalyst
05-03-2013, 12:22 PM
I always thought the LT was for the best tackle, and the #2 tackle on your team would be the RT. So just always get the best option at LT available and you can always switch him over. I also feel it isnt as much of a jump for a tackle to move inside to the guard spot. The only spot that really needs a different skill is the center. You need a pure center (not Boothe) to have a dominant line. Someone you arent worried about the snap either shotgun, pistol or direct. Someone who can provide push and has strength to deal with a NT. Someone who can be the QB of the OL to shift and pointout defensive adjustments.

The tackle spots are still very important dude to the pass rush, but as the acticle says, the LT and RT are almost interchangable now as much as the LDE and RDE are.

A big reason I didnt really enjoy the Pugh pick is because I see him having half the value of those tackles drafted up front. IMO, he wont be able to play LT or RT in the NFL unless he gets his strength up, and thats a big if for a #19 pick. AS a Cuse fan, I saw how he was during the past few years. He looked solid at LT for the Orange in a fast paced, quick pass offense, something the Giants dont run. You know gilbride and Eli like milking the clock down to 1 before the snap every play. This allows defenses to adjust and put there best pass rusher on Pugh instead of Beatty on passing situations if those are the starting tackles.

TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 12:33 PM
A big reason I didnt really enjoy the Pugh pick is because I see him having half the value of those tackles drafted up front. IMO, he wont be able to play LT or RT in the NFL unless he gets his strength up, and thats a big if for a #19 pick. AS a Cuse fan, I saw how he was during the past few years. He looked solid at LT for the Orange in a fast paced, quick pass offense, something the Giants dont run. You know gilbride and Eli like milking the clock down to 1 before the snap every play. This allows defenses to adjust and put there best pass rusher on Pugh instead of Beatty on passing situations if those are the starting tackles.

Well I do believe from the film I watched on Pugh, he might actually translate better to handling speed rushers on 3rd down like your Von Millers or Barkevious Mingos (just throwing out body types) than a traditional LDE who could easily get into his pads and overpower him with a bull rush. NFL teams reportedly do use the services of PFF and perhaps this data helped influence the Giants to shore up the RT spot. Diehl was just too big of a weakness there to continue having him start.

Do you have any idea how many 5 or 7 step drops Syracuse employs in comparison to the Gilbride offense? If the Orange are using 3 step drops to the amount you say they are, Pugh could have an initial adjustment period that is rough.

TheAnalyst
05-03-2013, 12:38 PM
Well I do believe from the film I watched on Pugh, he might actually translate better to handling speed rushers on 3rd down like your Von Millers or Barkevious Mingos (just throwing out body types) than a traditional LDE who could easily get into his pads and overpower him with a bull rush. NFL teams reportedly do use the services of PFF and perhaps this data helped influence the Giants to shore up the RT spot. Diehl was just too big of a weakness there to continue having him start.

Do you have any idea how many 5 or 7 step drops Syracuse employs in comparison to the Gilbride offense? If the Orange are using 3 step drops to the amount you say they are, Pugh could have an initial adjustment period that is rough.

I dont have exact numbers, but they really didnt use the long drop backs much. Nassib seemed to always get the ball off quickly, and when his receivers were covered tight, he would use a scramble mobility that Eli doesnt have. Thats why I am a bit worried with him as a tackle. He is more of a run blocker then a pass blocker. He is very good at runblocking though so that could be huge for Wilson / Brown. Cuse run game is what really kept them alive the past few seasons with average running backs.

giantsfan420
05-03-2013, 01:01 PM
looks like JR is ahead of the curve bc the Pugh selection follows suit with the article. Pugh appears to be a much more NFL ready pass protector than run mauler, esp at RT. But I feel JR is aware that our RT will face D.Ware, B.Orakpo (or Kerrigan), and Philly with their stable of pass rushers...

I bet we see the league start to transition to the GMs like JR who value versatility. Pugh can play LT if need be I'd bet, and we know he can play both LG and RG...

giantsfan420
05-03-2013, 01:02 PM
what theanalyst? Syracuse runs a read and react type offense like we do. They utilize plenty of 5 and 7 step drops, I have no idea what ur seeing.

Kruunch
05-03-2013, 01:02 PM
The article is silly.

Left Tackles and Right Tackles in a perfect world should be of equal value, however in the real world one rarely gets the chance to have two perfect walls at both OT spots.

The primary difference between LT and RT is that most QBs are right handed. So when they drop back they naturally face towards the right, as their right shoulder dips back in preparation to throw. This means that the QB is, by default, facing the right side and seeing any rush coming from that side. Accordingly, they can react if a blitzer or pass rusher on that side comes free. Conversely, the left side becomes the "blindside". That's where a defense will naturally put their best past rusher and thus where the best pass protector should be. Hence why LTs are so important.

Now defenses will attempt to shift pass rushers around and/or blitz from different sides and angles, stunt, twist, etc ... all of this is to disrupt and confuse the aforementioned paradigm. However, the premise is still the same ... a right handed QB will face towards the right side naturally, and the left side will almost always be a blind spot for him, so you want the guy you trust most to protect that side.

So when a scout says "that guy is only a RT" what they are really saying is he's a capable OT, but 20% of the time (or pick your arbitrary number) allows a rusher to come free. So we don't TOTALLY trust him. Conversely, a scout saying "this guy is a pure LT" is the same as saying this guy is a total wall and never (or almost never) allows pressures and free rushers so this is the guy we naturally want to protect the blind side of our QB.

As for running right vs. left, that's a very mixed stat. Most people are right handed. Most right handed people tend to naturally go to their right better than going to their left. That's the only reason you see run plays designed to the right more than the left (specific personnel aside). This is obviously very subject to who the RB is, and how strong (and where that strength is) on the OL in question.

ADDENDUM: obviously the more you pass, the more important pass protection in general becomes (hence the perceived increase in value of RTs).

ShakeandBake
05-03-2013, 01:16 PM
The article is silly.

Left Tackles and Right Tackles in a perfect world should be of equal value, however in the real world one rarely gets the chance to have two perfect walls at both OT spots.

The primary difference between LT and RT is that most QBs are right handed. So when they drop back they naturally face towards the right, as their right shoulder dips back in preparation to throw. This means that the QB is, by default, facing the right side and seeing any rush coming from that side. Accordingly, they can react if a blitzer or pass rusher on that side comes free. Conversely, the left side becomes the "blindside". That's where a defense will naturally put their best past rusher and thus where the best pass protector should be. Hence why LTs are so important.

Now defenses will attempt to shift pass rushers around and/or blitz from different sides and angles, stunt, twist, etc ... all of this is to disrupt and confuse the aforementioned paradigm. However, the premise is still the same ... a right handed QB will face towards the right side naturally, and the left side will almost always be a blind spot for him, so you want the guy you trust most to protect that side.

So when a scout says "that guy is only a RT" what they are really saying is he's a capable OT, but 20% of the time (or pick your arbitrary number) allows a rusher to come free. So we don't TOTALLY trust him. Conversely, a scout saying "this guy is a pure LT" is the same as saying this guy is a total wall and never (or almost never) allows pressures and free rushers so this is the guy we naturally want to protect the blind side of our QB.

As for running right vs. left, that's a very mixed stat. Most people are right handed. Most right handed people tend to naturally go to their right better than going to their left. That's the only reason you see run plays designed to the right more than the left (specific personnel aside). This is obviously very subject to who the RB is, and how strong (and where that strength is) on the OL in question.

I agree with your post up until the last paragraph. If you think about it, being right handed QB would make running to the left easier because of how the QB hands the ball off. If your basic running play goes to the left, when the ball is snapped the QB will take a step backwards with his left foot, open his hips and he will deliver the ball to the runnning back with his right hand, and the way the running back takes the ball on a hand off should make it easy for him to put the ball in either hand. The opposite is true if the running play goes to the right side, and one could argue that running to the left is safer because of the QB/RB exchange, in the case of a right handed QB of course. I really don't think the whole superiority thing of LT vs RT is really applicable in the running game since the QB can be blind either way depending on where the run is designed to go.

Astorian
05-03-2013, 01:38 PM
I agree with your post up until the last paragraph. If you think about it, being right handed QB would make running to the left easier because of how the QB hands the ball off. If your basic running play goes to the left, when the ball is snapped the QB will take a step backwards with his left foot, open his hips and he will deliver the ball to the runnning back with his right hand, and the way the running back takes the ball on a hand off should make it easy for him to put the ball in either hand. The opposite is true if the running play goes to the right side, and one could argue that running to the left is safer because of the QB/RB exchange, in the case of a right handed QB of course. I really don't think the whole superiority thing of LT vs RT is really applicable in the running game since the QB can be blind either way depending on where the run is designed to go.Surely almost all QBs are 'ambidextrous' enough to be able to hand the ball off safely with either hand. On the other hand (foot?), right-handed RBs are usually more comfortable going to their right than their left. For one thing, it's more natural to carry the ball in their right hand than their left. Similarly, it's easier to plant the right foot and cut to the left than vice-versa.

ShakeandBake
05-03-2013, 02:00 PM
Surely almost all QBs are 'ambidextrous' enough to be able to hand the ball off safely with either hand. On the other hand (foot?), right-handed RBs are usually more comfortable going to their right than their left. For one thing, it's more natural to carry the ball in their right hand than their left. Similarly, it's easier to plant the right foot and cut to the left than vice-versa.

That may be true, but it seems that a lot of fumbles happen during the hand off exchange. You could argue that a QB should be ambidextrous, but then should he be comfortable enough to step back with his left foot as much as his right? Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that it is arguable either way, and that in the running game Right Tackles are just as valuable as Left Tackles. In the passing game it is a completely different story.

ryan12
05-03-2013, 02:03 PM
every postion on the oline is important

Kruunch
05-03-2013, 02:26 PM
I agree with your post up until the last paragraph. If you think about it, being right handed QB would make running to the left easier because of how the QB hands the ball off. If your basic running play goes to the left, when the ball is snapped the QB will take a step backwards with his left foot, open his hips and he will deliver the ball to the runnning back with his right hand, and the way the running back takes the ball on a hand off should make it easy for him to put the ball in either hand. The opposite is true if the running play goes to the right side, and one could argue that running to the left is safer because of the QB/RB exchange, in the case of a right handed QB of course. I really don't think the whole superiority thing of LT vs RT is really applicable in the running game since the QB can be blind either way depending on where the run is designed to go.

All QBs learn to hand off with either hand.

TheEnigma
05-03-2013, 03:44 PM
The article is silly.

Left Tackles and Right Tackles in a perfect world should be of equal value, however in the real world one rarely gets the chance to have two perfect walls at both OT spots.

The primary difference between LT and RT is that most QBs are right handed. So when they drop back they naturally face towards the right, as their right shoulder dips back in preparation to throw. This means that the QB is, by default, facing the right side and seeing any rush coming from that side. Accordingly, they can react if a blitzer or pass rusher on that side comes free. Conversely, the left side becomes the "blindside". That's where a defense will naturally put their best past rusher and thus where the best pass protector should be. Hence why LTs are so important.

Now defenses will attempt to shift pass rushers around and/or blitz from different sides and angles, stunt, twist, etc ... all of this is to disrupt and confuse the aforementioned paradigm. However, the premise is still the same ... a right handed QB will face towards the right side naturally, and the left side will almost always be a blind spot for him, so you want the guy you trust most to protect that side.

So when a scout says "that guy is only a RT" what they are really saying is he's a capable OT, but 20% of the time (or pick your arbitrary number) allows a rusher to come free. So we don't TOTALLY trust him. Conversely, a scout saying "this guy is a pure LT" is the same as saying this guy is a total wall and never (or almost never) allows pressures and free rushers so this is the guy we naturally want to protect the blind side of our QB.

You're talking about an initial 1-2 second window where the right handed QBs always face towards their dominant side but when they do throw towards the left side of the field (which is only a few times less than people actually believe in comparison to the right), they have to turn their body facing the left side of the field so they can properly scan and read the secondary. At this point, the right side is now blind to them and not the left. Pressure rarely happens in that initial window you are speaking of in this post.

slipknottin
05-03-2013, 04:45 PM
I dont think either OT is gaining value, they are losing value, IMO.

This past draft just had no talent at other positions. Was all at either OL or DT.

PRGiant
05-03-2013, 04:46 PM
LT is still more important but not for as big a margin as say the '90s. Team run less, so you don't need that big RT. Teams pass more so your RT better be able to protect. Still the blind side is the most important OL.

ShakeandBake
05-03-2013, 05:03 PM
All QBs learn to hand off with either hand.

All running backs learn to carry the ball with both hands as well, so either way your point about running left and right is moot.

bearbryant
05-03-2013, 10:25 PM
Right tackles never lost value. However, the usual blind side ( the left) because most QB's are right handed and start their take away with their back to the left side and have less of a view of the oncoming side of the defense from his left. Some RB's like running to one side or the other because of their inate ability to make a tackler miss. But the tackles still do the same job: mow 'em down or keep the QB upright. Go Giants!

NorwoodBlue
05-03-2013, 10:57 PM
RT lost value when teams stopped emphasizing the power running game. Now that defenses have become smaller, with an emphasis on pass defense, I think the overpowering right tackle is incredibly valuable. Teams that put some power back in the OL are going to be able to run right over some of today's defenses. Then, all of a sudden weak LB is going to be exposed in spades. The additon of Hank on our inside is good; but we're light on the end, and have horrible linebackers. A good running team is going to eat us alive.

Redeyejedi
05-04-2013, 08:46 AM
Well I do believe from the film I watched on Pugh, he might actually translate better to handling speed rushers on 3rd down like your Von Millers or Barkevious Mingos (just throwing out body types) than a traditional LDE who could easily get into his pads and overpower him with a bull rush. NFL teams reportedly do use the services of PFF and perhaps this data helped influence the Giants to shore up the RT spot. Diehl was just too big of a weakness there to continue having him start.

Do you have any idea how many 5 or 7 step drops Syracuse employs in comparison to the Gilbride offense? If the Orange are using 3 step drops to the amount you say they are, Pugh could have an initial adjustment period that is rough.I dont think he is nearly strong enough yet to play guard. His best spot might be LT

Captain Chaos
05-04-2013, 09:52 AM
I think that the comment by JR regarding his big hands, smarts and potential to play center may be telling; setting expectations.... It will be really fun to watch the way things play out this summer. Pugh wasn't my favorite pick but I am happy we picked up some youth for the OL.

Diamondring
05-04-2013, 10:41 AM
All O-linemen have value. If you whole O-line and receivers are good blockers, it will be hard to stop the offense in passing and running. Don't forget about Dallas O-line in the 90s.

Sovereign
05-04-2013, 02:21 PM
We won a Super Bowl with a crap RT so...yeah. I don't know the alst time there was a Super Bowl winner with a crap QB or crap receivers, etc but I'll look it up.

Diamondring
05-04-2013, 02:36 PM
We won a Super Bowl with a crap RT so...yeah. I don't know the alst time there was a Super Bowl winner with a crap QB or crap receivers, etc but I'll look it up.Then the RT was not crap then. Not all teams have good REs either.

Imgrate
05-04-2013, 03:05 PM
Then the RT was not crap then. Not all teams have good REs either.This is classic GWAT

penguinfarmer
05-04-2013, 04:47 PM
There still is a predominance of the strong side being stacked to the right side of the offense versus the left. Whether that is, because it is in the line of sight of a right handed QB, the dominant side of a running back or simply due to habit, it still holds true.

I think value of the RT is also relative. Teams still generally put their best pass rusher on the left tackle. However, some divisions feature better bookends than others, whereas others simply get more production from their LE.

Sovereign
05-04-2013, 06:39 PM
Then the RT was not crap then. Not all teams have good REs either.

Did you watch the season? Even if you didn't the metrics had McKenzie as one of the worst RTs in the league.