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joemorrisforprez
05-04-2013, 05:49 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/02/13/mmqb/index.html

This is an interesting article by Peter King, written at the time Harry Carson was enshrined into the Hall of Fame.

I'm posting it to show how important the linebacker position is to stopping the run.




"....

Carson did the one thing no defensive player ever gets enough credit for, even though it's the first thing every defensive coach talks about with his team every week: He defended the run. You've heard it a hundred times: If we don't stop the run, we can't win. And when the Giants contended consistently, the hallmark of that team was not the running game or Lawrence Taylor terrorizing quarterbacks. It was having opponents in second-and-9. And that was Carson's job. From 1981 to 1987, the peak of his career, when he was making the Pro Bowl every year as a run-stuffing inside linebacker, the Giants averaged 3.59 yards per opponents' rushing attempt.
Consider these three stats about that 3.59 over the seven-year period that Carson was at his peak:

1. The great Chicago Bears defense of 1985, one of the best of all time, with defensive tackles Steve McMichael and Dan Hampton and middle linebacker Mike Singletary, gave up an average of 3.64 yards per rush. The Giants beat that ... over a seven-year period.
2. Only three teams in 2005 were better than 3.59 yards per opponents' rush, for a single season.
3. Mike Shanahan said the Patriots had one of the best run defenses he'd ever seen before he faced them in the playoffs. New England allowed 3.62 per opponents' rush.

And consider that none of Carson's run-stopping 'mates over a seven-year period -- good but not star players like Erik Howard, Jim Burt, Gary Reasons, Kenny Hill, Byron Hunt, Greg Lasker, Herb Welch, Terry Kinard -- will ever be discussed for the Hall of Fame. And you think: if Carson was the on- and off-field leader of this group, if Bill Belichick considered Carson the best all-around linebacker he ever coached, and given the way that Carson stopped the run, shouldn't the guy make the Hall of Fame?

...."




Harry Carson was a 4th round draft pick.

Drez
05-04-2013, 05:52 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/02/13/mmqb/index.html

This is an interesting article concerning Harry Carson when he was enshrined into the Hall of Fame.

I'm posting it to show how important the linebacker position is to stopping the run.




Harry Carson was a 4th round draft pick.And your point is?

We didn't draft a LB. Time to get over it and move on, buckaroo.

joemorrisforprez
05-04-2013, 05:54 PM
And your point is?

We didn't draft a LB. Time to get over it and move on, buckaroo.

My point is that if we are looking to stop the run, linebackers are important.

Just trying to drop some knowledge on you, bro.

Drez
05-04-2013, 05:58 PM
My point is that if we are looking to stop the run, linebackers are important.

Just trying to drop some knowledge on you, bro.Stopping the run starts with the DL. If the DL, particularly the DTs in a 43, aren't doing their jobs you can have 3 Carson's out there and they're going to look like garbage.

You're not dropping anything. Stopping the run starts with the DL, not the LB.

JesseJames
05-04-2013, 05:58 PM
And your point is?

We didn't draft a LB. Time to get over it and move on, buckaroo. since the draft was only a week ago isn't this the time for people to express their feelings of not getting the player they wanted, we will all get over it but its still fun to discuss disappointments...

Harooni
05-04-2013, 06:03 PM
there is a plan to put a 4-3 defense all DT's this will stop the opposing run to a halt.

joemorrisforprez
05-04-2013, 06:05 PM
since the draft was only a week ago isn't this the time for people to express their feelings of not getting the player they wanted, we will all get over it but its still fun to discuss disappointments...

You'd think so, right?

Last time I checked, this was a message board for fans to post up stuff related to the Giants.

I figured an article about Harry Carson being one of the best run-stuffing linebackers of all time was fair game....but apparently it strikes a nerve with Drez.

joemorrisforprez
05-04-2013, 06:06 PM
Stopping the run starts with the DL. If the DL, particularly the DTs in a 43, aren't doing their jobs you can have 3 Carson's out there and they're going to look like garbage.

You're not dropping anything. Stopping the run starts with the DL, not the LB.

Doubtful.

And the linebacker's primary responsibility is stopping the run. I can understand why some people wouldn't know that, based on recent performance.

Obviously, they have other duties as well, depending on their position, and whether you're running a 4-3 or 3-4. It's a very demanding position....which is why the very best linebackers normally elevate the defense as a whole, and why crap sandwich linebackers can make the entire unit look confused, soft, or both.

Cool Papa B.
05-04-2013, 06:24 PM
Doubtful.

And the linebacker's primary responsibility is stopping the run. I can understand why some people wouldn't know that, based on recent performance.

Obviously, they have other duties as well, depending on their position, and whether you're running a 4-3 or 3-4. It's a very demanding position....which is why the very best linebackers normally elevate the defense as a whole, and why crap sandwich linebackers can make the entire unit look confused, soft, or both.

The primary job of the OLB is to get to the QB.

The ILB on the other hand wears many hats. He's the QB of the defense. He has to read what the offense is doing and relay that to his defense ASAP. If the offense is running he has to help stop the run. If they are passing he either has to help rush the QB or drop back to cover the slot receiver, or the TE depending on the type of pass play it is.

An ILB has to be able to do a little of everything, be very smart and think on his feet, tough, hit hard, and do the unglamourous things no one wants to do. In essence the ILB has to be like Harry Carson.

Mercury
05-04-2013, 07:01 PM
They've made a few rule changes since those days. Harry Carson would probably be a two down LBer if he could jump forward in time and play in this era.

Toadofsteel
05-04-2013, 07:15 PM
there is a plan to put a 4-3 defense all DT's this will stop the opposing run to a halt.

If only that wasn't pretty much hard-countered by play action...

DT2012
05-04-2013, 08:27 PM
I am pretty sure Harry Carson played behind D-Line that was extremely stingy against the run as well which helped make him that much better. You find me a team with a crappy D-Line and great Linebackers that's ranked among the best in the NFL against the run. At anytime in the last 30 years!!!!!
Its not gonna happen cause any Defense that's very good to great against the run had a very good D-Line to go with those LBers.

Drez
05-04-2013, 08:58 PM
I am pretty sure Harry Carson played behind D-Line that was extremely stingy against the run as well which helped make him that much better. You find me a team with a crappy D-Line and great Linebackers that's ranked among the best in the NFL against the run. At anytime in the last 30 years!!!!!
Its not gonna happen cause any Defense that's very good to great against the run had a very good D-Line to go with those LBers.A good DL will make mediocre LB look good. A bad DL will make good LB look mediocre or worse.

DT2012
05-04-2013, 09:13 PM
A good DL will make mediocre LB look good. A bad DL will make good LB look mediocre or worse.

I think we are on the same page on this one. I don't see how a LBer would have done anything when our D-Line was simply not built to stop the run. At least not in the form they were in last year. They tried to address the run D last year with Sean Rogers but he was put out of commission with a blood clot. So the Giants staff knew what they needed. This year they drafted a Space eating Double team requiring DT who stops the run. And who can play anywhere across the D-Line.

Drez
05-04-2013, 09:27 PM
I think we are on the same page on this one. I don't see how a LBer would have done anything when our D-Line was simply not built to stop the run. At least not in the form they were in last year. They tried to address the run D last year with Sean Rogers but he was put out of commission with a blood clot. So the Giants staff knew what they needed. This year they drafted a Space eating Double team requiring DT who stops the run. And who can play anywhere across the D-Line.Don't get me wrong, I think we need an overall improvement in play from our LBs, but our main issue last season was the DL not getting it done. If they take care of their job, it makes the LBs job significantly easier.

Buddy333
05-04-2013, 09:30 PM
Another thread about not drafting a LB?

Drez
05-04-2013, 10:16 PM
Another thread about not drafting a LB?Yup, Joe is ​slightly obsessed.

RoanokeFan
05-04-2013, 10:24 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/02/13/mmqb/index.html

This is an interesting article by Peter King, written at the time Harry Carson was enshrined into the Hall of Fame.

I'm posting it to show how important the linebacker position is to stopping the run.




Harry Carson was a 4th round draft pick.

TC has suggested Cooper Taylor, the 5th round pick, might be an "outside backer." 6'4", 228 and allegedly fast.

poppa smurph
05-04-2013, 10:33 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think we need an overall improvement in play from our LBs, but our main issue last season was the DL not getting it done. If they take care of their job, it makes the LBs job significantly easier.I totally agree with what your saying about the DL and how they can make life alot easier for LB's in the run game.
It's hard to say what was a bigger let down last year, the DL or the inability to stay healthy at LB for any significant time.
One things for certain though, the combination of the two makes for a long year.

sodbuster
05-04-2013, 10:46 PM
I am pretty sure Harry Carson played behind D-Line that was extremely stingy against the run as well which helped make him that much better. You find me a team with a crappy D-Line and great Linebackers that's ranked among the best in the NFL against the run. At anytime in the last 30 years!!!!!
Its not gonna happen cause any Defense that's very good to great against the run had a very good D-Line to go with those LBers.in harry carson's 1st 2nd 3rd year harry was all that defence had.. and yes that D-LINE was terrible..can not even remember one other player on that d-line..and I have ben a giants fan for 50 years..on 1 play stawback ran a QB sneak at the 1 yand line. the announcer said roger what are you doing carson will hand you your head!! harry was said to be one of the best LB'S in the league at that time, with no help!!!!!!!

Toadofsteel
05-04-2013, 11:49 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think we need an overall improvement in play from our LBs, but our main issue last season was the DL not getting it done. If they take care of their job, it makes the LBs job significantly easier.

This is what Mara and Reese said: It all starts in the trenches. Hence our top 3 picks were all OL and DL... and i'm okay with that.

Not so sure about the Nassib pick, but if we can flip him for a 2nd or 1st in a couple years it will be worth it...

Drez
05-05-2013, 12:20 AM
This is what Mara and Reese said: It all starts in the trenches. Hence our top 3 picks were all OL and DL... and i'm okay with that.

Not so sure about the Nassib pick, but if we can flip him for a 2nd or 1st in a couple years it will be worth it...I hope we're able to, too. However, if he's able to provide decent back up play, or be a place holder after Eli until we can get a franchise, then I think it'd still be worth the 4 and 6.

B&RWarrior
05-05-2013, 03:09 AM
Is this about Arthur Brown? Are you seriously insinuating that he could be as good as Harry Carson? If that was the expectation he would have went in the top 10 of the draft. On the other hand, I know how it feels to not go after the type of player you think we need to make us better. I have been crying for a clogger at DT for 3 drafts in a row now- didn't really think Joseph was THAT guy. I love the Hankins pick. I had the guy pegged as pick we should get but wouldn't get. I just thought JR was in love with the athletic speedy DT types that could get pressure on the QB, but were highly questionable in run defense. I am worried about our secondary, but I'm excited to see our D.

We'll be getting a LB in next year's draft.

B&RWarrior
05-05-2013, 03:11 AM
This is what Mara and Reese said: It all starts in the trenches. Hence our top 3 picks were all OL and DL... and i'm okay with that.

Not so sure about the Nassib pick, but if we can flip him for a 2nd or 1st in a couple years it will be worth it...

From TC's lips to their ears.

BlueSanta
05-05-2013, 04:00 AM
Doubtful.

And the linebacker's primary responsibility is stopping the run. .

No, that is not how it works in a 43

43 is about gap control. In our system, the primary function of BOTH DL and LB is gap control.

We seriously lacked disciplined gap control in 2012, particularly on the edge of the defense, but also in the interior of the defense as well.

That falls to BOTH LBs and DL.

While that article about Carson is nice, it is very irrelevant to our current system. In a 3-4, particularly the old style 3-4 systems such as the 1 Carson played in, the design of the defense is such that the dline eat blocks and allow the LBs to make the plays. That is very different from a 43 system.

sodbuster
05-05-2013, 08:29 AM
carson started as a middle LB in a 4-3. then went to a ILB in 3-4 (after LT was drafted ) harry was a DE in college then went to middle LB in the NFL. and he played both systems at pro bowl level..

BlueSanta
05-05-2013, 09:09 AM
carson started as a middle LB in a 4-3. then went to a ILB in 3-4 (after LT was drafted ) harry was a DE in college then went to middle LB in the NFL. and he played both systems at pro bowl level..

The period this article is talking about is the 3-4 years.

Furthermore, nobody is doubting Carson, he is 1 of the all time great Giants and 1 of the most underrated players in NFL history.


But, in todays NFL defenses now spend over 50% of the time in a nickel defense. Some defense that % is much higher. The 43 MLB comes off the field in that situation with very few exceptions. This is the 1 main reason you do not see many 43 teams spend 1st round picks on MLBs. It is also why 43 MLBs devalued in recent years. Furthermore, in past years the 43 MLB was always the "singal caller of the defense" and that is still the case sometimes but just as many teams are now choosing to give those honors to the OLBs because they are on the field more.

Lastly, for those complaining about the lack of us selecting a MLB, then using the Harry Carson article as a reference, I would point out there were no Harry Carson's in this draft.

GiantsRevival2
05-05-2013, 09:45 AM
Stopping the run starts with the DL. If the DL, particularly the DTs in a 43, aren't doing their jobs you can have 3 Carson's out there and they're going to look like garbage.

You're not dropping anything. Stopping the run starts with the DL, not the LB.
Exactly. People are placing to much importance on Lbers. If the Dline can keep the opponents Oline from getting to the second level the Lbers we currently have will be fine. Our problem last year was our Dline was getting pushed around and never got any penetration into the backfield. This shouldnt be a problem with all the DT's we picked up this year. We won 2 superbowls recently with below average Lber cores.

joemorrisforprez
05-05-2013, 11:27 AM
The primary job of the OLB is to get to the QB.

The ILB on the other hand wears many hats. He's the QB of the defense. He has to read what the offense is doing and relay that to his defense ASAP. If the offense is running he has to help stop the run. If they are passing he either has to help rush the QB or drop back to cover the slot receiver, or the TE depending on the type of pass play it is.

An ILB has to be able to do a little of everything, be very smart and think on his feet, tough, hit hard, and do the unglamourous things no one wants to do. In essence the ILB has to be like Harry Carson.

The primary job of the OLB is to seal the edge on running plays, and have responsibility for backs and tight ends in pass coverage. Given how teams routinely abused the Giants last season in all those facets, our OLBs clearly did not get the job done.

Yes, pass rushing is important, as is pass coverage of backs and tight ends. But linebackers read run first.

But this article was mainly about the value of a great inside (or middle) linebacker's importance to stopping the run.

joemorrisforprez
05-05-2013, 11:29 AM
Another thread about not drafting a LB?


Yup, Joe is ​slightly obsessed.

And here you both are....interesting.

JesseJames
05-05-2013, 11:48 AM
I don't know how long this read offense will be around but teams who do not have fast LBers who can seal the edge and have the speed to get back in coverage very quickly will suffer a lot

sodbuster
05-05-2013, 12:30 PM
I was just saying harry carson was a great LB behind a bad DL that's all.. some one on here said this could not happen..there will not be another line backer like harry carson for a long time if ever....

DT2012
05-05-2013, 12:54 PM
Harry Carson did not play behind a bad D-Line!!!!! They weren't a star studded D-Line like it said but 3.54 yards over a 7 year period guess what?? Those D-Linemen were doing there job so Carson could do his. Name a team with a horrid D-Line that stopped the run though LBers alone. If blockers are getting past the DT's and moving up to block the backers even if Carson got thru the blockers their average would have been more than 3.54 over a 7 year period. Carson was a great Linebacker but he didn't do it alone.