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RoanokeFan
05-07-2013, 07:01 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25288/what-theyre-saying-de-damontre-moore

Excerpt: "Third-round pick: DE Damontre Moore (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15858/damontre-moore), Texas A&M

Here's our Rapid Reaction (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25055/reaction-giants-take-de-moore) and what the Giants are saying about him:

Marc Ross: "Some people may have gotten scared off at the combine when he ran so slow and didn't lift that well. A Terrell Suggs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4468/terrell-suggs), a Trent Cole (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8560/trent-cole), a Derrick Burgess (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2611/derrick-burgess)ran really slow but played fast on tape. Things off the field that people may not have been comfortable with where he just needs to grow up. He's only 20. He needs to be a professional a little bit. He's a good kid who loves to play. Those may have been a couple of reasons [why he dropped]. ... He interviewed OK for us. But when you see a guy run 4.9 when guys are running 4.5s and 4.6s, people jump all over that number as opposed to the 12.5 sacks and 21 tackles-for-loss numbers.

"[Texas A&M] had a special joker role for him. He had his hand on the ground, he stood up. Our coaches are excited to use him in different ways. You've seen some of our guys do that hybrid role. [Mathias Kiwanuka (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/9618/mathias-kiwanuka) has done both]. He has a skill set to do a little bit of both. But he won’t be strictly a linebacker for us. It'll be more of a hybrid role."

Tom Coughlin: "Damontre Moore, has great production -– 12.5 sacks [and] 26.5 over his career, 21 TFLs; a very, very good effort player on Saturday [in college]. He has some issues, I think, during the week, which we will have to address in terms of preparation and practice mentality, that type of thing. But he is young, just 20 years old.

"He has outstanding quickness. You look at his 40 time and you are going to say, well, it is not what you would think. But there was a big split in those times in Indianapolis and he does play faster than the [40] time you are probably going to refer back to. But his quickness and his shuttles were outstanding. So from me to you, he is as quick as it is."

Jerry Reese: "The defensive end [Moore], he is sacks. In three years he got 26.5 sacks, had 12.5 this past season. We were a little surprised he was up there that long with his sack production, but you can't pass guys with that kind of sack production so it was a decision we made to go and go get him right there with that pick.

"I think Kiwi has a bigger frame. Their lower body is probably similar, but obviously Kiwi has been around for a while. He's definitely matured and filled out, but there could be comparisons drawn if you look at their lower body. ... The thing I like, he plays hard. Guys that play hard, you can coach them to do the rest. He plays with a nasty streak and we think he's got a tremendous upside." Read more...

TCHOF
05-07-2013, 07:05 PM
A like it when they say the guy has a mean streak. We need more of those guys.

B&RWarrior
05-07-2013, 08:13 PM
He's a 250 and will struggle versus the run until he puts on some strength. His productivity tells me that he has sophisticated pass rush moves. Everybody knew who he was and what he was about and he still got to the quarterback this year. I think he could be a great pass rush specialist. He's not a 3 down lineman.

RoanokeFan
05-07-2013, 08:14 PM
A like it when they say the guy has a mean streak. We need more of those guys.

We have Harooni :rolleyes:

Redeyejedi
05-07-2013, 08:44 PM
His 40 was bad but he pulled his Hamstring. His other numbers like his vertical and Broad jump were among the best in the draft at the combine for DE's

joemorrisforprez
05-07-2013, 09:28 PM
From listening to Marc Ross, sounds like they'll be lining him up as a pass-rushing OLB on occasion.....which is fine with me.

G-Men Surg.
05-07-2013, 09:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25288/what-theyre-saying-de-damontre-moore

Excerpt: "Third-round pick: DE Damontre Moore (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15858/damontre-moore), Texas A&M

Here's our Rapid Reaction (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25055/reaction-giants-take-de-moore) and what the Giants are saying about him:

Marc Ross: "Some people may have gotten scared off at the combine when he ran so slow and didn't lift that well. A Terrell Suggs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4468/terrell-suggs), a Trent Cole (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8560/trent-cole), a Derrick Burgess (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2611/derrick-burgess)ran really slow but played fast on tape. Things off the field that people may not have been comfortable with where he just needs to grow up. He's only 20. He needs to be a professional a little bit. He's a good kid who loves to play. Those may have been a couple of reasons [why he dropped]. ... He interviewed OK for us. But when you see a guy run 4.9 when guys are running 4.5s and 4.6s, people jump all over that number as opposed to the 12.5 sacks and 21 tackles-for-loss numbers.

"[Texas A&M] had a special joker role for him. He had his hand on the ground, he stood up. Our coaches are excited to use him in different ways. You've seen some of our guys do that hybrid role. [Mathias Kiwanuka (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/9618/mathias-kiwanuka) has done both]. He has a skill set to do a little bit of both. But he won’t be strictly a linebacker for us. It'll be more of a hybrid role."

Tom Coughlin: "Damontre Moore, has great production -– 12.5 sacks [and] 26.5 over his career, 21 TFLs; a very, very good effort player on Saturday [in college]. He has some issues, I think, during the week, which we will have to address in terms of preparation and practice mentality, that type of thing. But he is young, just 20 years old.

"He has outstanding quickness. You look at his 40 time and you are going to say, well, it is not what you would think. But there was a big split in those times in Indianapolis and he does play faster than the [40] time you are probably going to refer back to. But his quickness and his shuttles were outstanding. So from me to you, he is as quick as it is."

Jerry Reese: "The defensive end [Moore], he is sacks. In three years he got 26.5 sacks, had 12.5 this past season. We were a little surprised he was up there that long with his sack production, but you can't pass guys with that kind of sack production so it was a decision we made to go and go get him right there with that pick.

"I think Kiwi has a bigger frame. Their lower body is probably similar, but obviously Kiwi has been around for a while. He's definitely matured and filled out, but there could be comparisons drawn if you look at their lower body. ... The thing I like, he plays hard. Guys that play hard, you can coach them to do the rest. He plays with a nasty streak and we think he's got a tremendous upside." Read more...


The logic assessment is that he is not going to be an impact player on special teams taking in count his 40 time but will see. I Like the " joker " role the Giants have in mind for him to fit right in but I don't like the idea of Moore getting " stuck " on that role, I think his upside as an edge rusher is very high and he eventually could be a future starter at DE when his body matures. For now I'm just excited to see him on the field of play in whatever role Fewell designs for him.

Broadway Blue
05-07-2013, 09:46 PM
Can't wait until DaMonster is unleashed!

JPP and Moore would be a scary combo

Mr. G-Man
05-07-2013, 09:59 PM
he will be awesome for special teams to have. kick-offs no longer reach the 25 ;)

giantsfan420
05-07-2013, 10:01 PM
the rest of the nfl will lament allowing a pass ruhser of his caliber fall to a team that hoards them. esp in rd 3. tremendous value, guy has 1rst rd talent and tape...

6851
05-07-2013, 10:16 PM
From listening to Marc Ross, sounds like they'll be lining him up as a pass-rushing OLB on occasion.....which is fine with me.

Totally agree! I think you need a guy like him that can rush at the DE spot or OLB spot. I'm thinking a player like that could help defend the "read-option" more teams are running.

jomo
05-07-2013, 10:27 PM
Ross says that the coaches are excited to use him in different ways. PF hasn't done very well in using guys in new and creative ways. As long as Fewll is our DC, those words from Ross are just blah, blah, blah to me. It's kind of like the NASCAR package.................just words and no results to speak of.

B&RWarrior
05-07-2013, 10:32 PM
15 lbs of muscle and 2-3 years of focus and discipline and he can be a 3 down DE.

****I must say 12 reps of 225 is pathetic for a DE. He will struggle until he gets stronger.

slipknottin
05-07-2013, 11:22 PM
Ross says that the coaches are excited to use him in different ways. PF hasn't done very well in using guys in new and creative ways. As long as Fewll is our DC, those words from Ross are just blah, blah, blah to me. It's kind of like the NASCAR package.................just words and no results to speak of.

Eh? He's had JPP and Kiwi make plays from all over. Tuck too. Super Bowl I believe both tucks sacks came when he was standing up or dropped into coverage.

But there's only a limit with how much he can do with the players he has. Moore adds another player he can tinker with

Unfortunately this entire forum is going to be upset at him not having a position, because they can't figure out their madden rosters.

slipknottin
05-07-2013, 11:26 PM
15 lbs of muscle and 2-3 years of focus and discipline and he can be a 3 down DE.

****I must say 12 reps of 225 is pathetic for a DE. He will struggle until he gets stronger.

He did 19 reps at his proday. Still poor, but not awful. Can tell on tape he doesn't have the strongest upper body. His lower body is pretty strong though. He can stack quite well for someone his size.

And lets not forget Strahan was almost the exact same size as Moore is now when Strahan was the best run defending DE in the league.

Run defending is as much leverage as anything. If Moore can get underneath guys he can be a three down end now

Sovereign
05-08-2013, 12:17 AM
Marc Ross said he can be a joker, Reese said strictly DE. We'll see what he shows in camp but I'm betting on a full time DE. The whole joker thing ain't working out for Kiwi.

Sovereign
05-08-2013, 12:21 AM
And lets not forget Strahan was almost the exact same size as Moore is now when Strahan was the best run defending DE in the league.


Strahan was drafted at 260 but bulked up to 170-275 which is where his best years came as. Of course Moore can bulk up too but Stray was a force because he bulked up, not that 255 is good enough.

In his later years Stray slimmed down to 255 to 260 since time took a step off but kept his mass. And he's a master technician too. Moore is going to need to get his head on straight and take his conditioning seriously. 255 ain't cutting it.

Unless Perry Fewell suddenly adapts and uses Moore in a completely different way but unless we're banking on miracles that not even God can do I'll just hope an NFL regimen is good enough.

B&RWarrior
05-08-2013, 01:17 AM
He did 19 reps at his proday. Still poor, but not awful. Can tell on tape he doesn't have the strongest upper body. His lower body is pretty strong though. He can stack quite well for someone his size.

And lets not forget Strahan was almost the exact same size as Moore is now when Strahan was the best run defending DE in the league.

Run defending is as much leverage as anything. If Moore can get underneath guys he can be a three down end now

That was with 8-9 years of NFL experience that Stray played at the low weight, he then dropped the weight because he was older, but the majority of Stray's career he was around 270- 280. Strahan was probably twice as strong as Moore at the same weight with flawless technique.

What I do like is the 21 TFLs.

myles2424
05-08-2013, 01:29 AM
That was with 8-9 years of NFL experience he then dropped the weight because he was older, but the majority of Stray's career he was around 280. Strahan was probably twice as strong as Moore at the same weight.
Yes, it takes alot of time to build great strength & be able to trim excess fat,lose weight & maintain that original strength that he had at 275-280.....losing weight without losing strength takes alot of dedication with diet,training,etc......I no longer play sports,so power lifting is worthless to me, so now bodybuilding has been a passion of mine....I've recently trimmed down from 6'5 275 to 235 & I'm stronger than ive ever been.....trust me, when guys drop weight fast,it's sooo hard to maintain strength/muscle mass, when your body doesn't get the same amount of calories,carbs,fats & protein its very hard to keep original strength......Therefore strahan had to have been extremely dedicated when trimming down toward the end of his career....there's a reason alot of DE's can't play at a elite level against the pass & run in the 250lb range

Captain Chaos
05-08-2013, 06:00 AM
The kid is 20 and hasn't filled out yet, that's the good news. In a pro program with the right diet and workout regime he will get to where he needs to be. I really liked the pick in the third. I'm thinking his poor 40 time and his low reps at the combine exposed a poor work ethic, something I think TC and the gang will be able to correct. Lots of up side.....

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 08:14 AM
His 40 was bad but he pulled his Hamstring. His other numbers like his vertical and Broad jump were among the best in the draft at the combine for DE's

Looks like they're going to try him out as the SAM and move him up to the line in obvious passing situations (ala Kiwi).

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 08:15 AM
Totally agree! I think you need a guy like him that can rush at the DE spot or OLB spot. I'm thinking a player like that could help defend the "read-option" more teams are running.

Just an FYI ... Moore was horrible against the option. Bites hard on misdirections.

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 08:15 AM
Ross says that the coaches are excited to use him in different ways. PF hasn't done very well in using guys in new and creative ways. As long as Fewll is our DC, those words from Ross are just blah, blah, blah to me. It's kind of like the NASCAR package.................just words and no results to speak of.

I tend to agree with this.

RoanokeFan
05-08-2013, 08:22 AM
Eh? He's had JPP and Kiwi make plays from all over. Tuck too. Super Bowl I believe both tucks sacks came when he was standing up or dropped into coverage.

But there's only a limit with how much he can do with the players he has. Moore adds another player he can tinker with

Unfortunately this entire forum is going to be upset at him not having a position, because they can't figure out their madden rosters.

lol

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 08:26 AM
Eh? He's had JPP and Kiwi make plays from all over. Tuck too. Super Bowl I believe both tucks sacks came when he was standing up or dropped into coverage.

But there's only a limit with how much he can do with the players he has. Moore adds another player he can tinker with

Unfortunately this entire forum is going to be upset at him not having a position, because they can't figure out their madden rosters.

One day someone will have to explain to me how Justin Tuck got a sack while dropping back in coverage.

JPP makes plays from all over the field. But he almost always starts in the exact same position every play.

Dunno what Giants defense you been watching. :rolleyes:

TheAnalyst
05-08-2013, 08:48 AM
I always find it hilarious when a player is being talked about as a top 10 pick, falls to the 3rd round because he ran a slow 40 time in his underwear. Look at the game tape. He can play. He was projected as possibly the #2 pick overall at one point this offseason before the combine. Giants found a gem with this kid.

giantscolombia
05-08-2013, 09:05 AM
I always find it hilarious when a player is being talked about as a top 10 pick, falls to the 3rd round because he ran a slow 40 time in his underwear. Look at the game tape. He can play. He was projected as possibly the #2 pick overall at one point this offseason before the combine. Giants found a gem with this kid.
Lol i agree with you completely bro. Its ridiculous how a top 50 player can drop so hard.

Broadway Blue
05-08-2013, 01:06 PM
I always find it hilarious when a player is being talked about as a top 10 pick, falls to the 3rd round because he ran a slow 40 time in his underwear. Look at the game tape. He can play. He was projected as possibly the #2 pick overall at one point this offseason before the combine. Giants found a gem with this kid.

I think many teams will regret passing on Moore when he has a stellar season this year

Tommy_Ribs
05-08-2013, 01:34 PM
I am hoping this guy can end up being more of a 4-3 hand on the ground guy like Osi or Kiwi at DE, as opposed to a guy who is supposed to be a 3-4 OLB like Sintim.

I think he fits the mold of a 4-3 3rd down DE.

We will need him to provide some heat.

Tommy_Ribs
05-08-2013, 01:37 PM
Looks like they're going to try him out as the SAM and move him up to the line in obvious passing situations (ala Kiwi).

Ugh - I don;t like the sound of that too much. I don't think he is a natural LB with full LB responsibility.

B&RWarrior
05-08-2013, 02:06 PM
Just an FYI ... Moore was horrible against the option. Bites hard on misdirections.

Yeah, but 21 tackles for a loss tells me his instincts aren't that bad.

B&RWarrior
05-08-2013, 02:08 PM
Ugh - I don;t like the sound of that too much. I don't think he is a natural LB with full LB responsibility.

Kid needs to muscle up and become a DE full time in the 4-3. He's an awesome fit for a 3-4 OLB.

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 02:16 PM
Ugh - I don;t like the sound of that too much. I don't think he is a natural LB with full LB responsibility.

I think he'd be better at that then Kiwi initially was because of some of the joker stuff they did with him in college.

But his downside is run defense, which he is fairly bad at and that worries me as a SAM. And he'd be a total liability in coverage. I'm really surprised they talked about doing this as opposed to getting some weight on him and playing him at the line (he seems to play best with this hand in the dirt).

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 02:18 PM
Yeah, but 21 tackles for a loss tells me his instincts aren't that bad.

This is why you need to see tape on him. A lot of that is coverage stuff.

He's a playmaker ... but when you break down what he does on tape, you have a hard time seeing him being that productive in the NFL (in the same way).

In my mind Moore is a pure edge rusher (ala Osi, Abraham, Freeney) and should be used as such.

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 04:08 PM
One day someone will have to explain to me how Justin Tuck got a sack while dropping back in coverage.

JPP makes plays from all over the field. But he almost always starts in the exact same position every play.

Dunno what Giants defense you been watching. :rolleyes:

Watch the superbowl, tuck drops, waits maybe 5 or so yards deep, then comes after brady.

JPP plays both ends and tackle. Not sure how thats same position

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 04:09 PM
I am hoping this guy can end up being more of a 4-3 hand on the ground guy like Osi or Kiwi at DE, as opposed to a guy who is supposed to be a 3-4 OLB like Sintim.

really? Because Sintim would have been a great player in a 3-4?

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 04:13 PM
Just an FYI ... Moore was horrible against the option

This annoys the heck out of me. Are you arguing that Moore should have by himself tackled both players in the option?

Because when I watch him on tape, Moore always stuffs one or the other. Not sure what you believe he should be doing

Redeyejedi
05-08-2013, 04:29 PM
This annoys the heck out of me. Are you arguing that Moore should have by himself tackled both players in the option?

Because when I watch him on tape, Moore always stuffs one or the other. Not sure what you believe he should be doingHe isnt Mingo who has the athletic ability to play 2 players.Thats why Mingo went 6 overall

joemorrisforprez
05-08-2013, 05:07 PM
This annoys the heck out of me. Are you arguing that Moore should have by himself tackled both players in the option?

Because when I watch him on tape, Moore always stuffs one or the other. Not sure what you believe he should be doing

It looked to me that he always played the ball carrier (the QB before the flip) which seems to be the correct way to do it.

Frankly, if he drills RG3 every time he tries that sandlot crap, I'd be thrilled. That's how the Ravens kicked his ***.

Tommy_Ribs
05-08-2013, 08:17 PM
really? Because Sintim would have been a great player in a 3-4?

Obviously no, but he never had a shot here because we never had him at his natural position. We did the same thing with Reggie Torbor.

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 08:38 PM
Obviously no, but he never had a shot here because we never had him at his natural position. We did the same thing with Reggie Torbor.

I just dont agree with this logic at all. Torbor despite being a 3-4 OLB in college, did not have that skill set to play it in the NFL. Neither did Sintim. Giants gave Sintim opportunity at a handful of spots, and he did nothing well. The only play he made in his career was an unblocked sack.

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 09:19 PM
This annoys the heck out of me. Are you arguing that Moore should have by himself tackled both players in the option?

Because when I watch him on tape, Moore always stuffs one or the other. Not sure what you believe he should be doing

As a DE your primary responsibility is edge containment. Against the option he should always be biting on the outside option while forcing the inside option inside.

Not to mention that a quality DE wouldn't bite so hard as to take himself out of the play. Stuffing the guy that doesn't have the ball is worthless in that scenario.

Kruunch
05-08-2013, 09:22 PM
Watch the superbowl, tuck drops, waits maybe 5 or so yards deep, then comes after brady.

JPP plays both ends and tackle. Not sure how thats same position

I was talking about 2012. Also there is a huge difference between dropping into coverage and a delayed blitz.

In 2012 Stevie Wonder could have told you where all our defense lined up on each play.

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 09:29 PM
As a DE your primary responsibility is edge containment

This is completely untrue. It all depends on the call on the field.

You need to read on the option and how teams play the option. If you believe having a guy take out one of the two option players is "worthless" then you dont understand how to defend the option

slipknottin
05-08-2013, 09:30 PM
I was talking about 2012. Also there is a huge difference between dropping into coverage and a delayed blitz.

In 2012 Stevie Wonder could have told you where all our defense lined up on each play.

It was a combo of dropping into coverage, and a delayed blitz, because he started off lined up at DE, then dropped backwards. Only blitzed after OL cleared out. May have just been a contain, and not a blitz at all.

And if you believe that Fewell became less creative, wouldnt you attribute that to having a decline in players who were capable of making plays? Rather than Fewell just deciding he didnt want to be successful anymore?

BlueSanta
05-08-2013, 10:45 PM
As a DE your primary responsibility is edge containment. Against the option he should always be biting on the outside option while forcing the inside option inside.

Not to mention that a quality DE wouldn't bite so hard as to take himself out of the play. Stuffing the guy that doesn't have the ball is worthless in that scenario.

What? no way is it even remotely that simple.

That is absolutely not how you defend the option. The defensive will most often have different responsibility against the option dependent on a bunch of factors, including the strong/ weak side. The down and distance, the 2ndary coverage, and the wide/ short side of the field.

In fact, more often than not the DE has the ball and the OLB/ Safety or even corner has the pitch.


It is never as simple as you are implying and in truth against the option the DE is likely never going to amass a lot of stats because he is the guy being optioned. The entire point of that offense is to neutralize 1 guy by forcing him to make an impossible choice. The most successful DEs vs the option are the guys who know their resposiblity without a moments hesitation. If it is the pitch then he takes him away and if it is the ball then he blows up the carrier(usually the QB) forcing him to pitch it as fast as possible turning an option into a much more easily defended simple run.

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 07:34 AM
This is completely untrue. It all depends on the call on the field.

You need to read on the option and how teams play the option. If you believe having a guy take out one of the two option players is "worthless" then you dont understand how to defend the option


What? no way is it even remotely that simple.

That is absolutely not how you defend the option. The defensive will most often have different responsibility against the option dependent on a bunch of factors, including the strong/ weak side. The down and distance, the 2ndary coverage, and the wide/ short side of the field.

In fact, more often than not the DE has the ball and the OLB/ Safety or even corner has the pitch.


It is never as simple as you are implying and in truth against the option the DE is likely never going to amass a lot of stats because he is the guy being optioned. The entire point of that offense is to neutralize 1 guy by forcing him to make an impossible choice. The most successful DEs vs the option are the guys who know their resposiblity without a moments hesitation. If it is the pitch then he takes him away and if it is the ball then he blows up the carrier(usually the QB) forcing him to pitch it as fast as possible turning an option into a much more easily defended simple run.

Sorry, I should have stipulated that in a standard 4-3 front .... (figured you guys were savvy enough to follow along).

But yes, it's usually as simple as that. Unless edge containment (on either side) is given to a Safety or LBer (and not something you see in a standard 4-3 front except in blitz/stunt situations) the DE should always default to the outside option first. Standard containment. That's the way we were taught a billion years ago ... and that's the way it's successfully defended today.

Or do you consider the 20 yard gashes Moore was giving up to the Option successful?

giant-4-life
05-09-2013, 07:39 AM
the OP on this guy sounds great. he's like potters clay at this point; Fresh, young, unformed, we just need to form him into a great football player.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 11:36 AM
Sorry, I should have stipulated that in a standard 4-3 front .... (figured you guys were savvy enough to follow along).

But yes, it's usually as simple as that. Unless edge containment (on either side) is given to a Safety or LBer (and not something you see in a standard 4-3 front except in blitz/stunt situations) the DE should always default to the outside option first. Standard containment. That's the way we were taught a billion years ago ... and that's the way it's successfully defended today.

Or do you consider the 20 yard gashes Moore was giving up to the Option successful?

This is still totally wrong. A standard 4-3 alignment can NOT defend the option.

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 11:42 AM
This is still totally wrong. A standard 4-3 alignment can NOT defend the option.

Well this can't be totally wrong since this is how it was done in Pop Warner, high school and college (for me) and how it is done successfully today.

And exactly what do you think option offenses do exactly ... explain the play beforehand to the defense so they can line up "properly"? I like your player analysis generally speaking, but your Xs and Os baffle me.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 11:56 AM
Well this can't be totally wrong since this is how it was done in Pop Warner, high school and college (for me) and how it is done successfully today.

And exactly what do you think option offenses do exactly ... explain the play beforehand to the defense so they can line up "properly"? I like your player analysis generally speaking, but your Xs and Os baffle me.


I'll let you explain how 7 guys are supposed to defend 8 gaps then.

But I have never seen high school or pop Warner play a 4-3. Ever. They have 8+ man boxes every play.

MattMeyerBud
05-09-2013, 12:22 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25288/what-theyre-saying-de-damontre-moore

Excerpt: "Third-round pick: DE Damontre Moore (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15858/damontre-moore), Texas A&M

Here's our Rapid Reaction (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25055/reaction-giants-take-de-moore) and what the Giants are saying about him:

Marc Ross: "Some people may have gotten scared off at the combine when he ran so slow and didn't lift that well. A Terrell Suggs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4468/terrell-suggs), a Trent Cole (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8560/trent-cole), a Derrick Burgess (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2611/derrick-burgess)ran really slow but played fast on tape. Things off the field that people may not have been comfortable with where he just needs to grow up. He's only 20. He needs to be a professional a little bit. He's a good kid who loves to play. Those may have been a couple of reasons [why he dropped]. ... He interviewed OK for us. But when you see a guy run 4.9 when guys are running 4.5s and 4.6s, people jump all over that number as opposed to the 12.5 sacks and 21 tackles-for-loss numbers.

"[Texas A&M] had a special joker role for him. He had his hand on the ground, he stood up. Our coaches are excited to use him in different ways. You've seen some of our guys do that hybrid role. [Mathias Kiwanuka (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/9618/mathias-kiwanuka) has done both]. He has a skill set to do a little bit of both. But he won’t be strictly a linebacker for us. It'll be more of a hybrid role."

Tom Coughlin: "Damontre Moore, has great production -– 12.5 sacks [and] 26.5 over his career, 21 TFLs; a very, very good effort player on Saturday [in college]. He has some issues, I think, during the week, which we will have to address in terms of preparation and practice mentality, that type of thing. But he is young, just 20 years old.

"He has outstanding quickness. You look at his 40 time and you are going to say, well, it is not what you would think. But there was a big split in those times in Indianapolis and he does play faster than the [40] time you are probably going to refer back to. But his quickness and his shuttles were outstanding. So from me to you, he is as quick as it is."

Jerry Reese: "The defensive end [Moore], he is sacks. In three years he got 26.5 sacks, had 12.5 this past season. We were a little surprised he was up there that long with his sack production, but you can't pass guys with that kind of sack production so it was a decision we made to go and go get him right there with that pick.

"I think Kiwi has a bigger frame. Their lower body is probably similar, but obviously Kiwi has been around for a while. He's definitely matured and filled out, but there could be comparisons drawn if you look at their lower body. ... The thing I like, he plays hard. Guys that play hard, you can coach them to do the rest. He plays with a nasty streak and we think he's got a tremendous upside." Read more...


again, you have to like their logic and reasoning

MattMeyerBud
05-09-2013, 12:23 PM
I'll let you explain how 7 guys are supposed to defend 8 gaps then.

But I have never seen high school or pop Warner play a 4-3. Ever. They have 8+ man boxes every play.

I ran a 4-3

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 12:30 PM
I ran a 4-3

What did you play in a league with great QBs? Lol. Usually it's almost all runs

Or did you play a 4-3 with a safety up a lot of the game?

In my high school we technically were a 5-2. And had safety in the box most of game, or they were playing downhill at the snap.

MattMeyerBud
05-09-2013, 12:32 PM
What did you play in a league with great QBs? Lol. Usually it's almost all runs

Or did you play a 4-3 with a safety up a lot of the game?

played with a safety up a lot :)

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 12:35 PM
played with a safety up a lot :)

Yea. It's pretty rare to see a 7 man box in high school. Except strict passing downs. And even then not often.

Maybe it's different some places that have a lot of QBs, but I haven't seen it.

Redeyejedi
05-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Yea. It's pretty rare to see a 7 man box in college. Except strict passing downs. And even then not often.

Maybe it's different some places that have a lot of QBs, but I haven't seen it.Why would u play a 4-3 in Pop Warner.Who the hell is playing QB in that league the fathers.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Why would u play a 4-3 in Pop Warner.Who the hell is playing QB in that league the fathers.

Yea. High school too. Maybe a bit more common. But still. I would bet 4-4 is the most common formation. Then 5-2 or 5-3. I can see having a base 4-3, but if the safety is in the box all game it's really just a 4-4 anyway.

BlueSanta
05-09-2013, 12:45 PM
Sorry, I should have stipulated that in a standard 4-3 front .... (figured you guys were savvy enough to follow along).

But yes, it's usually as simple as that. Unless edge containment (on either side) is given to a Safety or LBer (and not something you see in a standard 4-3 front except in blitz/stunt situations) the DE should always default to the outside option first. Standard containment. That's the way we were taught a billion years ago ... and that's the way it's successfully defended today.

Or do you consider the 20 yard gashes Moore was giving up to the Option successful?

"standard containment" has absolutely nothing to do with defending the option. And the DE should absolutely NOT always do the outside option 1st. That is absurd. You are talking at pop warner level of football if this is what you believe. Against the option, there is 1st guy and 2nd guy responsibility. The 1st guy is often assigned the ball carrier and the 2nd guy is often assigned the pitch or handoff, but not always.

The option is designed to take 1 defender out of the play by making him commit to 1 option. If he commits to the ballcarrier, it is pitched(or handed off). If he commits to the pitch, then the ballcarrier pulls it back(or pitches).

Against Texas A&M's defense Florida( I assume that is the option team you are talking about) chose to option Moore on almost every option they ran. This isn't an insult it is a HUGE sign of respect because they recognized that if they option him, the Aggies best player, they were forcing someone else on that defense to make a play. Nobody did.

Tbonenc
05-09-2013, 01:53 PM
I really get a kick out of you guys going back and forth with each other.
At the end of the day, I'll stick with the Giants coaches and management over some internet heroes lamenting their glory days.
Go Giants!

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 02:08 PM
I'll let you explain how 7 guys are supposed to defend 8 gaps then.

But I have never seen high school or pop Warner play a 4-3. Ever. They have 8+ man boxes every play.

You drop your Safeties if there isn't a passing threat (hence all the 8 man boxes you're talking about). It's still a base 4-3 (or was for us).

And certainly at the college level this doesn't apply so stop trying to change the subject ya goob :p

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 02:08 PM
"standard containment" has absolutely nothing to do with defending the option. And the DE should absolutely NOT always do the outside option 1st. That is absurd. You are talking at pop warner level of football if this is what you believe. Against the option, there is 1st guy and 2nd guy responsibility. The 1st guy is often assigned the ball carrier and the 2nd guy is often assigned the pitch or handoff, but not always.

The option is designed to take 1 defender out of the play by making him commit to 1 option. If he commits to the ballcarrier, it is pitched(or handed off). If he commits to the pitch, then the ballcarrier pulls it back(or pitches).

Against Texas A&M's defense Florida( I assume that is the option team you are talking about) chose to option Moore on almost every option they ran. This isn't an insult it is a HUGE sign of respect because they recognized that if they option him, the Aggies best player, they were forcing someone else on that defense to make a play. Nobody did.

Yeah they gashed Moore time and again with the option as a sign of respect to his prowess. :rolleyes:

We'll agree to disagree.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 02:16 PM
You drop your Safeties if there isn't a passing threat (hence all the 8 man boxes you're talking about). It's still a base 4-3 (or was for us).

And certainly at the college level this doesn't apply so stop trying to change the subject ya goob :p

You still haven't explained how 7 guys are supposed to account for 8 gaps.

Which is the point of the option...

I still think you don't understand how the option works, or why you can't fault the player who is optioned for not playing both options

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 02:25 PM
You still haven't explained how 7 guys are supposed to account for 8 gaps.

Which is the point of the option...

I still think you don't understand how the option works, or why you can't fault the player who is optioned for not playing both options

If the opposing offense is running 22 personnel (your 8 gaps) you drop a Safety down.

When did I ever say the player is supposed play both options? What I said, is that the containment guy (the DE in a 4-3 barring stunts/blitzes) is supposed to default to the outside option. The idea is to always keep the ball in between the hashes, where the meat of your defense resides.

As for understanding the option remark ... umm yeah. If that's what you think we'll leave it at that.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 02:36 PM
If the opposing offense is running 22 personnel (your 8 gaps) you drop a Safety down.


As I suspected. You do not understand how the option works.

I'll simplify it. But in 10 personnel (one back, 4 wide) there are 6 gaps. Go to 11 personnel (one back one TE) and there are 7 gaps.

Do we agree this far?

Now add the option to play to either of those and it ADDS an extra gap. The option player is essentially just an added blocker.

That means on 10 personnel, with only 1 back and no TE there are 7 gaps to defend if there is an option play.


As for 22 personnel, you are making it slightly more difficult on yourself because the fullback is not normally counted as an additional gap, but that is in fact exactly what he is. For ease of discussion just say that FB went in motion and lined up at TE. Giving you 13 personnel. That's the 8 blockers, giving 9 gaps. Not the 8 you mentioned. Add the option to that and it's 10 gaps

BlueSanta
05-09-2013, 02:48 PM
I really get a kick out of you guys going back and forth with each other.
At the end of the day, I'll stick with the Giants coaches and management over some internet heroes lamenting their glory days.
Go Giants!

People are talking football and football players, which is kinda the point of these forums.

You, on the other hand, are just insulting other posters. Why even bother posting?

BlueSanta
05-09-2013, 02:49 PM
Yeah they gashed Moore time and again with the option as a sign of respect to his prowess. :rolleyes:

We'll agree to disagree.

Who did the Redkins option most when they played us?

JPP.

Does that mean he is our worst player too in your eyes? He played the option very well, but still they gashed us for yards because the 2ndary option wasn't stopped.

BlueSanta
05-09-2013, 02:56 PM
You drop your Safeties if there isn't a passing threat (hence all the 8 man boxes you're talking about). It's still a base 4-3 (or was for us).

And certainly at the college level this doesn't apply so stop trying to change the subject ya goob :p
huh?

You started the topic of high school and pop warner.


Well this can't be totally wrong since this is how it was done in Pop Warner, high school and college (for me) and how it is done successfully today.


It is only fair when making an ill informed statement like that for slip(and others) point out that nobody in pop warner or high school even uses a 43. In fact, it kinda discredits everything else you say.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 03:07 PM
Some good reading material.
http://smartfootball.com/defending-spread/defending-the-zone-read-athleticism-and-the-scrape-exchange

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 03:49 PM
As I suspected. You do not understand how the option works.

I'll simplify it. But in 10 personnel (one back, 4 wide) there are 6 gaps. Go to 11 personnel (one back one TE) and there are 7 gaps.

Do we agree this far?

Now add the option to play to either of those and it ADDS an extra gap. The option player is essentially just an added blocker.

That means on 10 personnel, with only 1 back and no TE there are 7 gaps to defend if there is an option play.


As for 22 personnel, you are making it slightly more difficult on yourself because the fullback is not normally counted as an additional gap, but that is in fact exactly what he is. For ease of discussion just say that FB went in motion and lined up at TE. Giving you 13 personnel. That's the 8 blockers, giving 9 gaps. Not the 8 you mentioned. Add the option to that and it's 10 gaps

That's never been how the option was played by us, coached to us, or has been coached by me. While the Flip Option can produce the extra blocker, he was never considered an added gap for purposes of gap control. In the Wild Cat, the option can be considered a blocker but in reality, isn't. Again, not considered an additional gap. The option is taught as having an extra *ball_carrier* which is where you have your personnel mismatches, but not as an extra gap.

Now this is not to say it isn't taught differently elsewhere. Each team/coaches from PW to the NFL has his own spin on everything from what we're talking about here to their pet names for the red zone. BUT with respect to the context (Moore) I just don't agree with you, nor have I seen what you're saying (either personally or elsewhere except in fail situations (i.e. not purposeful)).

Let me ask you ... how often have you played with or against the option? (Madden doesn't count :p )

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 03:50 PM
Who did the Redkins option most when they played us?

JPP.

Does that mean he is our worst player too in your eyes? He played the option very well, but still they gashed us for yards because the 2ndary option wasn't stopped.

No they didn't. They optioned Osi and Tuck more times than JPP.

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 03:52 PM
It is only fair when making an ill informed statement like that for slip(and others) point out that nobody in pop warner or high school even uses a 43. In fact, it kinda discredits everything else you say.

Which is obviously wrong as I and others have personal experience to the contrary.

What is this, rock-head day on the Giants forums? You're arguing that Fords can't possibly be blue when I'm telling you I drive a blue Ford.

SMH.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 03:58 PM
That's never been how the option was played by us, coached to us, or has been coached by me. While the Flip Option can produce the extra blocker, he was never considered an added gap for purposes of gap control. In the Wild Cat, the option can be considered a blocker but in reality, isn't. Again, not considered an additional gap. The option is taught as having an extra *ball_carrier* which is where you have your personnel mismatches, but not as an extra blocker

This is your counter argument? Lol. You are going to argue semantics instead?

The option adds one extra person to account for. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter.

"As legendary Patriots coach Bill Belichick explained to Tim Layden in "Blood, Sweat and Chalk," "When you put a quarterback under center, you lose a blocker, you lose a gap, offensively. You basically play with 10 men on offense. But when the quarterback is one of the runners, whether it's single-wing or veer or wishbone, the defense runs out of people to defend you."

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 04:05 PM
This is your counter argument? Lol. You are going to argue semantics instead?

The option adds one extra person to account for. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter.

"As legendary Patriots coach Bill Belichick explained to Tim Layden in "Blood, Sweat and Chalk," "When you put a quarterback under center, you lose a blocker, you lose a gap, offensively. You basically play with 10 men on offense. But when the quarterback is one of the runners, whether it's single-wing or veer or wishbone, the defense runs out of people to defend you."

As *I* thought ... you haven't played the game (sans Madden).

/thread

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 04:11 PM
As *I* thought ... you haven't played the game (sans Madden).

/thread

Keep reaching.

As 49ers defensive coordinator Vic Fangio put it, "It just becomes a numbers game. Your typical run, the quarterback hands off and it's now their 10 against your 11. Now when he's a potential runner, it's their 11 against your 11, and they're not even blocking one of the guys at the point of attack, so it actually becomes 11 against 10 if they do it right. So, the numbers are flipped."

Shall I keep going? Or are you going to continue with snarky comments about how you are some great coach of 10 year olds?

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 04:31 PM
Keep reaching.

As 49ers defensive coordinator Vic Fangio put it, "It just becomes a numbers game. Your typical run, the quarterback hands off and it's now their 10 against your 11. Now when he's a potential runner, it's their 11 against your 11, and they're not even blocking one of the guys at the point of attack, so it actually becomes 11 against 10 if they do it right. So, the numbers are flipped."

Shall I keep going? Or are you going to continue with snarky comments about how you are some great coach of 10 year olds?

*EDIT* - I take that back. You're absolutely right and I apologize for being snarky :)