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qndarius3
05-09-2013, 09:42 AM
This board incessantly discusses our need for linebackers. We are not spending money to get one or drafting one high, so get over it!

We, as the team is currently set up with these coaches DO NOT VALUE THE LB POSITION. This is not the glory days of the 80s. They have made this abundantly clear.
Whether it be the nascar package with only 2 lbs or the 3 safety look with only 2 lbs, we do not line up 3 lbs a good portion of the time.
We are bringing in athletic guys on the cheap like rivers and curry because we feel like when we do run our lbs out there, we need someone to match up with either a TE or a QB (vick/RGIII). This is why we bring in guys like kiwi, williams, or even cooper (even though hes technically a safety).

Our current defensive philosophy devalues LB position in comparison to what we ran in the past. For this reason we will not spend big money or picks on LB's, especially since the last one was a complete bust (sintim). If Perry Fewell were no longer the DC, things could change but until then, this is how our D will be run.

I love what the GMEN have done this offseason and signing cruz long term would be the cherry on top. GO GMEN.

**Rant over.

egyptian420
05-09-2013, 09:47 AM
I agree with what you're saying because I feel like our Dline is the foundation of the defense but I also think we're becoming very thin at LB. If one of our starters has an injury (which is very possible) well have a bunch of no names filling in which could be a huge problem when you think of the tight ends in this division.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 09:54 AM
Question: How many Super Bowls have the Giants won when the linebackers play well?
Answer: 4

Bottom line: The Giants defense sucked for many reasons last season, and the mediocre play of the linebackers was a big reason. The linebackers did not get any help from the front 4, but I still expect them to make a friggin play on their own every now and then.

Boley was a stud in 2011, and then was banged up last year, and it hurt the unit's effectiveness.
Williams is a promising linebacker, but his technique and toughness need to improve.
Chase was Chase....he needs help on both sides, because he doesn't have the speed to cover for his teammates.

Boley and Chase are both gone, and Reese replaced Chase with someone who is hopefully better than his run-of-the-mill career stats would indicate.

I really hope DaMontre Moore and/or Cooper Taylor can help patch things up by handling the duties that are normally required of linebackers. I hope Dan Connor takes his career to a new level. I hope that Rivers can stay healthy - it would be the first time in his otherwise lackluster career. I have no hope for Aaron Curry.

Sorry, but that's the situation......I'm living on alot of hope right now as it pertains to the linebackers.

Because as history shows, when they don't get the job done, neither does this defense.

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 09:56 AM
Question: How many Super Bowls have the Giants won when the linebackers play well?
Answer: 4

again, im not saying we dont need lbs, or that i dont think its an important position for success, its just the defensive philosophy of this coaching staff does not place a ton of value on it.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 10:28 AM
again, im not saying we dont need lbs, or that i dont think its an important position for success, its just the defensive philosophy of this coaching staff does not place a ton of value on it.

I'm holding out hope that stuff I don't see as a fan is happening behind the scenes - plans for the new draft picks (Moore & Cooper) as hybrids; maybe Dan Connor is an upgrade to Chase; maybe Rivers can shake the injury bug that plagued him.

Of all the guys on the team, J-Will is the one that I am most optimistic about. He's got great speed, and I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet by any means. I seem him as a logical successor to Boley.

Moore played OLB before switching to DE, and Taylor is basically a linebacker-sized safety.

I can only speak for myself. I've loved this team all my life, from the days when I was a little kid and my old man explained to me what was going on. I grew up watching truly great defense, and legendary linebackers.

So for me, it's a bummer watching what I saw in 2012 - soft, confused defense, with linebackers that were never in the backfield disrupting the opponent. Then, going into the offseason, we lose our best linebacker (Boley), let our hardest working linebacker (Chase) walk to the Panthers for chump change, and sign some dude (Connor) that really hasn't done anything to scare an offense.

What's done is done.....the draft is over. I'm hoping for the best, because that's basically I all can go on until I see something different from last year's 31st ranked crew.

ibbill
05-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Williams, Jacquian I expected that this guy will be a beast this year . Just my thoughts.

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 11:18 AM
Williams, Jacquian I expected that this guy will be a beast this year . Just my thoughts.

i like him too...if he can stay healthy.

Mercury
05-09-2013, 11:19 AM
Additionally, the investments we made into DT should provide for improved LBer play. There should be less opposing Linemen getting blocks on our LBers.

However, I am worried about the LBer position. With Boley and Chase gone, who calls the signals and leads the team? What if there are injuries? Lot's to worry about.

TCHOF
05-09-2013, 11:28 AM
This board incessantly discusses our need for linebackers. We are not spending money to get one or drafting one high, so get over it!

We, as the team is currently set up with these coaches DO NOT VALUE THE LB POSITION. This is not the glory days of the 80s. They have made this abundantly clear.
Whether it be the nascar package with only 2 lbs or the 3 safety look with only 2 lbs, we do not line up 3 lbs a good portion of the time.
We are bringing in athletic guys on the cheap like rivers and curry because we feel like when we do run our lbs out there, we need someone to match up with either a TE or a QB (vick/RGIII). This is why we bring in guys like kiwi, williams, or even cooper (even though hes technically a safety).

Our current defensive philosophy devalues LB position in comparison to what we ran in the past. For this reason we will not spend big money or picks on LB's, especially since the last one was a complete bust (sintim). If Perry Fewell were no longer the DC, things could change but until then, this is how our D will be run.

I love what the GMEN have done this offseason and signing cruz long term would be the cherry on top. GO GMEN.

**Rant over.

This is exaclty why the FO is much less eager than the fans to upgrade the LB position.

BigBlue1971
05-09-2013, 11:33 AM
we will have a good idea during camp and the preseason to see what we possibly have at linebacker!

my theory is the Giants load up at d-line and 2ndary and feel they get good "enough" support from the backers we have already!

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 11:33 AM
Completely disagree the giants don't value LBs. they have spent money (boley) and drafted them high (sintim)

That they didn't draft one early this draft only says they valued players at other positions more highly. Had arthur brown been their highest rated player in round 2, he would be a giant now

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 11:36 AM
Completely disagree the giants don't value LBs. they have spent money (boley) and drafted them high (sintim)

That they didn't draft one early this draft only says they valued players at other positions more highly. Had arthur brown been their highest rated player in round 2, he would be a giant now
I'm sure they value all positions on defense. But its clear that D line and corner are the highest priorities in general. As they should be.

egyptian420
05-09-2013, 12:20 PM
That they didn't draft one early this draft...or at all

TCHOF
05-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Completely disagree the giants don't value LBs. they have spent money (boley) and drafted them high (sintim)

That they didn't draft one early this draft only says they valued players at other positions more highly. Had arthur brown been their highest rated player in round 2, he would be a giant now

Signed Boley and drafted Sintim in 2009 . . . . that was 4 years ago.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 12:30 PM
Don't you guys know???? You don't need LBs!!
Infact, LBs are soo unimportant, we should just take all 3 of them off the field & play with only 8 men....

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 12:36 PM
Signed Boley and drafted Sintim in 2009 . . . . that was 4 years ago.

both prior to Fewell becoming DC

giantsfan420
05-09-2013, 01:52 PM
I kinda see the Connor signing working only if JR saw him as a system MLB that will fit what PF schemes. He def. doesn't strike me as this big hitter, or as an athletic specimen. He kinda represents a younger, slightly more agile Chase Blackburn. I cant see the FO signing him to handle all the MLB duties you'd see on other defenses bc a) he really hasn't done so yet in the NFL and b) he doesnt seem to be physically imposing. I dunno how much base 4-3 looks to expect bc we honestly don't have a Mike on the team as currently constructed imho....maybe we add Dansby or something, move Connor to strong side, and let Rivers/J-Will battle for the Will...Rivers could prob play any of the LB positions, that's just how I'd see the Connor signing working out based on his skill set or lack thereof...

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 01:52 PM
So on their most recent Super Bowl wins what LB would you say was a highly touted player? A guy drafted on the first round type guy. Why does everyone say their LB's will be no good? Williams was good his rookie year. Can't say Rivers will be injured. Conner could be just as good as Chase and everyone acts like he is irreplaceable.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 01:58 PM
So on their most recent Super Bowl wins what LB would you say was a highly touted player? A guy drafted on the first round type guy. Why does everyone say their LB's will be no good? Williams was good his rookie year. Can't say Rivers will be injured. Conner could be just as good as Chase and everyone acts like he is irreplaceable.

All those guys are just OK, even when healthy....Years of below average LBs has dropped our standards majorly..
And if history repeats itself, they all have a better chance of being hurt this season than being healthy....
Another LB MUST be brought in..

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 01:59 PM
Maybe there just isn't that much LB talent around anymore.
Back in the 80's the best athletes wanted to play LB, probably because of LT.
Now they all seem to want to be DE's.

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 02:03 PM
All those guys are just OK, even when healthy....Years of below average LBs has dropped our standards majorly..And if history repeats itself, they all have a better chance of being hurt this season than being healthy....Another LB MUST be brought in..They guys they had when they won their last two Super Bowls where just ok as well. Rivers does have a history of injury. Doesn't mean he will again. Williams has been here two years, one hurt one not.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:05 PM
They guys they had when they won their last two Super Bowls where just ok as well. Rivers does have a history of injury. Doesn't mean he will again. Williams has been here two years, one hurt one not.
That's irrelevant....We also won the last super bowl with no running game & no Oline....Doesn't mean we just ignore those positions....Every single offseason,upgrading weak parts of the team should be the goal....

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 02:08 PM
Yeah but they also had a major problem on the DL and the owners and FO made it public that they where going to improve it.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:13 PM
Yeah but they also had a major problem on the DL and the owners and FO made it public that they where going to improve it.
Indeed....But improved dline & Lbs > Imporved dline & crap Lbs....

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 02:15 PM
Indeed....But improved dline & Lbs > Imporved dline & crap Lbs....So how do they do that? Maybe they like what they have at LB?

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:33 PM
So how do they do that? Maybe they like what they have at LB?
Whats there to like? Same could've been argued with Clark,Kiehl,wilkison,dillard,jones,sintim,bullock, Goff,Herz,etc ..That's a lot of crap LBs to go through just in a few years...Idk who'd be to blame,but our LBs have sucked for awhile...Clearly someones dropping the ball when it comes to FA/Draft in that department

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 02:37 PM
Whats there to like? Same could've been argued with Clark,Kiehl,wilkison,dillard,jones,sintim,bullock, Goff,Herz,etc ..That's a lot of crap LBs to go through just in a few years...Idk who'd be to blame,but our LBs have sucked for awhile...Clearly someones dropping the ball when it comes to FA/Draft in that department
Its all about getting after the QB in today's NFL. You can have the best LB's in football but if you can't disrupt the QB, it won't matter.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Its all about getting after the QB in today's NFL. You can have the best LB's in football but if you can't disrupt the QB, it won't matter.
Absolutely....But it still doesn't mean actual Lbs wouldn't make us a better team...
And as far as distrupting the QB, I would've much rather had a passrusher in the 1st....Floyd/Datone Jones would've been my pick....RT's aren't exactly hard to find in draft/FA...

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Whats there to like? Same could've been argued with Clark,Kiehl,wilkison,dillard,jones,sintim,bullock, Goff,Herz,etc ..That's a lot of crap LBs to go through just in a few years...Idk who'd be to blame,but our LBs have sucked for awhile...Clearly someones dropping the ball when it comes to FA/Draft in that department

this is exactly the point. those players havent necessarily sucked, as much as they fit the system for the time they were in it. And clearly all were replaceable, just as our current crop are (save williams who i like a lot). The GMEN dont value the position as highly as others; so you have guys like Kehl, Wilkinson, Dillard, Jones ect. 4/5 rounders. they feel as if these players are interchangeable clearly.

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 02:46 PM
Absolutely....But it still doesn't mean actual Lbs wouldn't make us a better team...
And as far as distrupting the QB, I would've much rather had a passrusher in the 1st....Floyd/Datone Jones would've been my pick....RT's aren't exactly hard to find in draft/FA...
Its not the fact that they drafted a RT in round 1 that bothers me. Its that they reached into the second round for him and passed on superior talent that fell into our lap.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:46 PM
this is exactly the point. those players havent necessarily sucked, as much as they fit the system for the time they were in it. And clearly all were replaceable, just as our current crop are (save williams who i like a lot). The GMEN dont value the position as highly as others; so you have guys like Kehl, Wilkinson, Dillard, Jones ect. 4/5 rounders. they feel as if these players are interchangeable clearly.
The point is,with these interchangeable player,its shown....Even when our Dline gets the job done,we still have LBs that cant cover or play the run....Weve pretty much created a 3rd Safety role just to make up for our crap LBs....that's ridiculous

ImElectric2
05-09-2013, 02:50 PM
Why do people always reference our 1980s LB-core as though we had scrubs playing the line?

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 02:53 PM
That's irrelevant....We also won the last super bowl with no running game & no Oline....Doesn't mean we just ignore those positions....Every single offseason,upgrading weak parts of the team should be the goal....

Excellent point.

Fact is, teams are adjusting to Fewell's defense. We saw it on opening night v. Dallas....they murdered the center of the defense with quick slants.

The secret is out....the key to defeating the Giants is not to sit back in the pocket all day and wait for the DE's to clobber the QB......get the ball out quick, and let the running backs and tight ends loose.

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Excellent point.

Fact is, teams are adjusting to Fewell's defense. We saw it on opening night v. Dallas....they murdered the center of the defense with quick slants.

The secret is out....the key to defeating the Giants is not to sit back in the pocket all day and wait for the DE's to clobber the QB......get the ball out quick, and let the running backs and tight ends loose.

Dallas took advantage of Justin Tryon and abused him. That's why we lost week 1. Plain and simple.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 02:57 PM
Excellent point.

Fact is, teams are adjusting to Fewell's defense. We saw it on opening night v. Dallas....they murdered the center of the defense with quick slants.

The secret is out....the key to defeating the Giants is not to sit back in the pocket all day and wait for the DE's to clobber the QB......get the ball out quick, and let the running backs and tight ends loose.
Exactly...Also part of the reason why our Dline was extremely invisible in the sack deparment...Our Lb & secondary needed work this offseason & we failed to do so...

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Why do people always reference our 1980s LB-core as though we had scrubs playing the line?

If anything, the 1980's Giants defense proves that if you want to build a dominant unit, you can't be weak at any particular spot......Martin, Marshall, Burt, Howard, Dorsey.....the Giants always had a tough defensive front. And we had guys like Terry Kinard, Kenny Hill, Mark Collins and Perry Williams at defensive back.

repeatchamps
05-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Why do people always reference our 1980s LB-core as though we had scrubs playing the line?

THIS! I am also sick of hearing all the LB'er humpers on this board stating with definitive tone that any of Ogletree, Te'o or Arthur Brown would be the Messiah to the Giants LB'er weaknesses. How the heck can anyone be so sure that any of these guys would become automatic insertions let alone upgrades! Ogletree and Te'o are imbeciles and headcases. Brown just barely survived the 2nd round. Let's not make these guys out to be sure answers.

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 03:00 PM
The point is,with these interchangeable player,its shown....Even when our Dline gets the job done,we still have LBs that cant cover or play the run....Weve pretty much created a 3rd Safety role just to make up for our crap LBs....that's ridiculous

i think its the opposite. I think we created the "3rd safety" as an adjustment to when Vick came to the NFC east, and so, with so many new read option QB's coming into the league (kaepernick/newton/RGIII among others) we needed to adjust because 95% of linebackers cannot run with these guys. our personel dictated it, and it took us to a super bowl, so we have continued with it.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Dallas took advantage of Justin Tryon and abused him. That's why we lost week 1. Plain and simple.

Is Justin Tryon also the reason why Jason Witten lights up the Giants on a regular basis?

I mean, it's just brutal to watch.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:03 PM
THIS! I am also sick of hearing all the LB'er humpers on this board stating with definitive tone that any of Ogletree, Te'o or Arthur Brown would be the Messiah to the Giants LB'er weaknesses. How the heck can anyone be so sure that any of these guys would become automatic insertions let alone upgrades! Ogletree and Te'o are imbeciles and headcases. Brown just barely survived the 2nd round. Let's not make these guys out to be sure answers.

Let me try to explain this:

If the 2012 Giants linebackers were HALF as good as the 1986 Giants defensive line, we wouldn't be talking about a #31 ranked defense.

Or, put it another way:

Imagine you are an offensive coordinator on an NFL rival, and your upcoming opponent is the Giants. What would you consider the weakness of the defense? What would your gameplan look like?

myles2424
05-09-2013, 03:06 PM
i think its the opposite. I think we created the "3rd safety" as an adjustment to when Vick came to the NFC east, and so, with so many new read option QB's coming into the league (kaepernick/newton/RGIII among others) we needed to adjust because 95% of linebackers cannot run with these guys. our personel dictated it, and it took us to a super bowl, so we have continued with it.
According to your logic we should continue with our crap Oline & running game too then...

ImElectric2
05-09-2013, 03:07 PM
Let me try to explain this:If the 2012 Giants linebackers were HALF as good as the 1986 Giants defensive line, we wouldn't be talking about a #31 ranked defense.Or, put it another way:Imagine you are an offensive coordinator on an NFL rival, and your upcoming opponent is the Giants. What would you consider the weakness of the defense? What would your gameplan look like?Bingo.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 03:10 PM
THIS! I am also sick of hearing all the LB'er humpers on this board stating with definitive tone that any of Ogletree, Te'o or Arthur Brown would be the Messiah to the Giants LB'er weaknesses. How the heck can anyone be so sure that any of these guys would become automatic insertions let alone upgrades! Ogletree and Te'o are imbeciles and headcases. Brown just barely survived the 2nd round. Let's not make these guys out to be sure answers.
because our Lbs suck & chances are any of those guys would've been at worst an upgrade to what we have....

giantsforce
05-09-2013, 03:13 PM
Exactly...Also part of the reason why our Dline was extremely invisible in the sack deparment...Our Lb & secondary needed work this offseason & we failed to do so...Nah, no need to worry! After all our coaches are the finest in the NFL as they have "given" us 2 SB's. They will adjust. I just wonder why we were ranked 25th in stopping the run in the NFL in yards per game, giving up 129.1 yards per game and and average 4.1 per attempt. Could it be that we did not have any fast LB's to stop the run? Nah... We are in good company at the bottom of the NFL with the likes of the Jets, The Jags, the Bills, The Cards that is the real dominant defenses in the NFL!

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 03:13 PM
According to your logic we should continue with our crap Oline & running game too then...

what lol? of course not. im just saying at the time our defense adjusted based on personnel and who we were playing, and because it was successful we have continued with it.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:14 PM
Bingo.

For what it's worth, nobody is going to confuse Perry Fewell with Bill Belichick, either. As good of a head coach as Belichick is now, he was probably the best coordinator I've ever seen. Nobody made halftime adjustments like that dude.

My only point is you can't put all your eggs in one basket on offense or defense.....teams will figure out a way to exploit it.

ImElectric2
05-09-2013, 03:18 PM
For what it's worth, nobody is going to confuse Perry Fewell with Bill Belichick, either. As good of a head coach as Belichick is now, he was probably the best coordinator I've ever seen. Nobody made halftime adjustments like that dude.My only point is you can't put all your eggs in one basket on offense or defense.....teams will figure out a way to exploit it.Well, yeah, I feel that goes without saying. But having good players won't be a detriment. And to clarify, good can equate to average/adequate NFL starter. They dont have to be LT or Patrick Willis but give me something. Someone who knows what their responsibility is on a slant. Or that can keep up if they have the brains.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 03:18 PM
what lol? of course not. im just saying at the time our defense adjusted based on personnel and who we were playing, and because it was successful we have continued with it.
ummm, you don't think last year was a example that teams actually watch tape & figured out our weakness and how to play us? It was successful in 2011,it was far from that in 2012....

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 03:19 PM
ummm, you don't think last year was a example that teams actually watch tape & figured out our weakness and how to play us? It was successful in 2011,it was far from that in 2012....

i dont disagree, i am just commenting on the philosophy.

repeatchamps
05-09-2013, 03:21 PM
because our Lbs suck & chances are any of those guys would've been at worst an upgrade to what we have....

No one can know that for sure. All 3 could end up stinking also and that is if they even are able to crack the starting line-up for us to find out which is no sure thing either.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:26 PM
Well, yeah, I feel that goes without saying. But having good players won't be a detriment. And to clarify, good can equate to average/adequate NFL starter. They dont have to be LT or Patrick Willis but give me something. Someone who knows what their responsibility is on a slant. Or that can keep up if they have the brains.

I agree 100%. Like you said, give me someone with the brains to sniff out a slant, and the toughness to legally jam someone at the line of scrimmage.

repeatchamps
05-09-2013, 03:27 PM
Let me try to explain this:

If the 2012 Giants linebackers were HALF as good as the 1986 Giants defensive line, we wouldn't be talking about a #31 ranked defense.

Or, put it another way:

Imagine you are an offensive coordinator on an NFL rival, and your upcoming opponent is the Giants. What would you consider the weakness of the defense? What would your gameplan look like?

I didn't say LB'ers aren't a weakness, I said there is no way anyone can possibly state with certainty that the three guys the Giants passed on would deliver what you are looking for. Simply too much of that kind of commentary going on in these boards. It's ludicrous. Laughable at this point to think that Ogletree, Te'o or Brown would be for sure half as good as any of the Giants LB'ers of the 1980's. I love the 1980's Giants defense and LB'ers, always will be my favorite squads, but that doesn't mean we can say for sure that any of these guys would be anywhere near half as good as the 1980's units or even half as good as what they have currently!

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:29 PM
I didn't say LB'ers aren't a weakness, I said there is no way anyone can possibly state with certainty that three guys the Giants passed on would deliver what you are looking for. Simply too much of that kind of commentary going on in these boards. It's ludicrous. Laughable at this point to think that Ogletree, Te'o or Brown would be for sure half as good as any of the Giants LB'ers of the 1980's. I love the 1980's Giants defense and LB'ers, always will be my favorite squads, but that doesn't mean we can say for sure that any of these guys would be anywhere near half as good as the 1980's units.

I think that's a fair point.

I think the issue that some people have is that there's no way you can improve a unit if you don't draft anyone.

Different sport, but like they say in hockey, "you can't score a goal if you don't put the puck on the net".

That's why I'm really hoping that DaMontre Moore and Cooper Taylor will be used either as hybrids, or else in duties that linebackers commonly handle...because we need more then DE's and DT's to seal the edge, hammer a RB, cover the middle of the field, etc.

repeatchamps
05-09-2013, 03:35 PM
I think that's a fair point.

I think the issue that some people have is that there's no way you can improve a unit if you don't draft anyone.

Different sport, but like they say in hockey, "you can't score a goal if you don't put the puck on the net".

That's why I'm really hoping that DaMontre Moore and Cooper Taylor will be used either as hybrids, or else in duties that linebackers commonly handle...because we need more then DE's and DT's to seal the edge, hammer a RB, cover the middle of the field, etc.

It's hard for any of us to know what to do in the draft unless we are exposed to the draftees to the level the Giants personnel and coaching staff is. We have no choice but to trust their judgement and hope for the best. No one is saying we as fans on a message board can't question or disagree with the philosophy but I just think that better trust of the Giants organization is often needed on our part.

myles2424
05-09-2013, 03:45 PM
No one can know that for sure. All 3 could end up stinking also and that is if they even are able to crack the starting line-up for us to find out which is no sure thing either.

Yes we can know forsure....River & Conner, their original teams didn't even want them back and we have another bum aaron curry in for a visit, its safe to say any of those 1st-2nd round Lbs would be able to start on our team...

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 03:47 PM
It's hard for any of us to know what to do in the draft unless we are exposed to the draftees to the level the Giants personnel and coaching staff is. We have no choice but to trust their judgement and hope for the best. No one is saying we as fans on a message board can't question or disagree with the philosophy but I just think that better trust of the Giants organization is often needed on our part.

Well-said.

I think it's totally understandable that those who have been clamoring for a linebacker pick in the draft would be disappointed. And as fans, we get emotional about it.....that just comes with the territory.

Like you mentioned, at this point, we've just got to hope that things pan out. I'm hoping that Reese makes another move in free agency.

jomo
05-09-2013, 03:58 PM
I agree with what you're saying because I feel like our Dline is the foundation of the defense but I also think we're becoming very thin at LB. If one of our starters has an injury (which is very possible) well have a bunch of no names filling in which could be a huge problem when you think of the tight ends in this division.The problem with the D-line driven philosophy last year was that we didn't get good production out of so many guys along the DL including Canty, Tuck, Osi and so many of the lesser names. Even JPP underwhelmed us. NASCAR is just a word and an bunch of BS in terms of a definable strategy. When did we ever overwhelm an offense with all those "high speed lineman" with the possible exception of Green Bay?

So we are left with no linebackers and an underperforming group of defensive linemen.....................................and that is why we got what we got last year.

Morehead State
05-09-2013, 04:08 PM
Is Justin Tryon also the reason why Jason Witten lights up the Giants on a regular basis?

I mean, it's just brutal to watch.
If we have a linebacker on Jason Witten, we've identified the problem.

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 04:12 PM
Whats there to like? Same could've been argued with Clark,Kiehl,wilkison,dillard,jones,sintim,bullock, Goff,Herz,etc ..That's a lot of crap LBs to go through just in a few years...Idk who'd be to blame,but our LBs have sucked for awhile...Clearly someones dropping the ball when it comes to FA/Draft in that departmentThey won a Championship with Williams. Conner is as good as Chase. If he can stay healthy Rivers is a great athlete.

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 04:13 PM
Is Justin Tryon also the reason why Jason Witten lights up the Giants on a regular basis?I mean, it's just brutal to watch.What has been the result of all those games?

repeatchamps
05-09-2013, 04:31 PM
Yes we can know forsure....River & Conner, their original teams didn't even want them back and we have another bum aaron curry in for a visit, its safe to say any of those 1st-2nd round Lbs would be able to start on our team...

Lol, yes because every 1st round and 2nd round LB'er ever drafted starts over players who have veteran NFL experience. You are obviously blindly in love with three rookies who have not had one NFL snap that either are complete and utter idiots in the case of Te'o and Ogletree or, in the case of Arthur Brown, has some skepticism associated with him as he barely made it through the 2nd round in a weak draft for LB'ers.

TCHOF
05-09-2013, 04:57 PM
Lol, yes because every 1st round and 2nd round LB'er ever drafted starts over players who have veteran NFL experience. You are obviously blindly in love with three rookies who have not had one NFL snap that either are complete and utter idiots in the case of Te'o and Ogletree or, in the case of Arthur Brown, has some skepticism assocaited with him as he barely made it through the 2nd round in a weak draft for LB'ers.

Two words . . . . Clint Sintim

qndarius3
05-09-2013, 04:59 PM
The problem with the D-line driven philosophy last year was that we didn't get good production out of so many guys along the DL including Canty, Tuck, Osi and so many of the lesser names. Even JPP underwhelmed us. NASCAR is just a word and an bunch of BS in terms of a definable strategy. When did we ever overwhelm an offense with all those "high speed lineman" with the possible exception of Green Bay?

So we are left with no linebackers and an underperforming group of defensive linemen.....................................and that is why we got what we got last year.


notice 2 of the 4 guys you named are no longer with the team...JPP was gettting double and triple teamed all season.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 05:07 PM
What has been the result of all those games?

The result had everything to do with Eli Manning outgunning Tony Romo.

Check Romo's stats....he and Jason Witten put on a clinic pretty much every time they play the Giants.

Our best defense is Eli Manning, Hakeem Nicks, and Victor Cruz.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 05:08 PM
The problem with the D-line driven philosophy last year was that we didn't get good production out of so many guys along the DL including Canty, Tuck, Osi and so many of the lesser names. Even JPP underwhelmed us. NASCAR is just a word and an bunch of BS in terms of a definable strategy. When did we ever overwhelm an offense with all those "high speed lineman" with the possible exception of Green Bay?

So we are left with no linebackers and an underperforming group of defensive linemen.....................................and that is why we got what we got last year.

Yup, that sums up 2012 pretty nicely.

Broadway Blue
05-09-2013, 05:36 PM
I am surprised that Karlos Dansby is still looking for a spot on a roster

Kruunch
05-09-2013, 05:40 PM
I am surprised that Karlos Dansby is still looking for a spot on a roster

Money ... he values himself higher than potential teams value him (currently).

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 05:53 PM
The result had everything to do with Eli Manning outgunning Tony Romo.Check Romo's stats....he and Jason Witten put on a clinic pretty much every time they play the Giants.Our best defense is Eli Manning, Hakeem Nicks, and Victor Cruz.The game they beat them in last year Eli had under 200 yards to over 400 for Romo. The year before Eli had only slightly better stats than Romo. The last time they dominated the Giants was when hey had the LB's you listed before as being better than what they have had recently.

Redeyejedi
05-09-2013, 09:19 PM
I agree with what you're saying because I feel like our Dline is the foundation of the defense but I also think we're becoming very thin at LB. If one of our starters has an injury (which is very possible) well have a bunch of no names filling in which could be a huge problem when you think of the tight ends in this division.The depth is very shaky an injury or 2 and we have serious issues. U have to figure Rivers will miss at least 6 games

gumby74
05-09-2013, 09:27 PM
Question: How many Super Bowls have the Giants won when the linebackers play well?
Answer: 4

Bottom line: The Giants defense sucked for many reasons last season, and the mediocre play of the linebackers was a big reason. The linebackers did not get any help from the front 4, but I still expect them to make a friggin play on their own every now and then.

Boley was a stud in 2011, and then was banged up last year, and it hurt the unit's effectiveness.
Williams is a promising linebacker, but his technique and toughness need to improve.
Chase was Chase....he needs help on both sides, because he doesn't have the speed to cover for his teammates.

Boley and Chase are both gone, and Reese replaced Chase with someone who is hopefully better than his run-of-the-mill career stats would indicate.

I really hope DaMontre Moore and/or Cooper Taylor can help patch things up by handling the duties that are normally required of linebackers. I hope Dan Connor takes his career to a new level. I hope that Rivers can stay healthy - it would be the first time in his otherwise lackluster career. I have no hope for Aaron Curry.

Sorry, but that's the situation......I'm living on alot of hope right now as it pertains to the linebackers.

Because as history shows, when they don't get the job done, neither does this defense.

What? The Last 2 we won the LBers Pierce, Blackburn, Boley, Williams, and god knows who else. I can't even remember because they were that irrelevant. Our LBer corps was absolute ****.

So the correct answer is that we won 2 SBs with great linebackers when defense actually mattered. We won 2 SBs with crap linebackers when defense no longer matters.

slipknottin
05-09-2013, 09:32 PM
What? The Last 2 we won the LBers Pierce, Blackburn, Boley, Williams, and god knows who else. I can't even remember because they were that irrelevant. Our LBer corps was absolute ****.

So the correct answer is that we won 2 SBs when great linebackers when defense actually mattered. We won 2 SBs with crap linebackers when defense no longer matters.

Pierce was a probowler in 2006. Kawika Mitchell was tremendous the SB season.

Boley was a pretty good player for the giants while he was here. Rarely missed tackles, was solid in coverage. Kiwi in 2011 was one of the best SAM linebackers in football, believe he was top 5 in tackles for a loss. And Chase at least down the stretch played quite well.

joemorrisforprez
05-09-2013, 09:43 PM
What? The Last 2 we won the LBers Pierce, Blackburn, Boley, Williams, and god knows who else. I can't even remember because they were that irrelevant. Our LBer corps was absolute ****.

So the correct answer is that we won 2 SBs with great linebackers when defense actually mattered. We won 2 SBs with crap linebackers when defense no longer matters.

See below.


Pierce was a probowler in 2006. Kawika Mitchell was tremendous the SB season.

Boley was a pretty good player for the giants while he was here. Rarely missed tackles, was solid in coverage. Kiwi in 2011 was one of the best SAM linebackers in football, believe he was top 5 in tackles for a loss. And Chase at least down the stretch played quite well.

Well said.

As far as Blackburn goes......he made a dramatic improvement to the defense when he was re-signed midway through the 2011 season. It's like suddenly the defense found its brain.

Long story short, a good defense has factored into every NFL championship the Giants have won...and that includes solid play from the linebackers.

Buddy333
05-09-2013, 10:27 PM
They played well as a unit of course but the DL was what fueled them the last two Championships, not the LB's.

Roswell777
05-10-2013, 06:47 AM
Reese's track record suggests he's better at buying LBs late in the off season than he is at drafting them.

gumby74
05-10-2013, 08:55 AM
Pierce was a probowler in 2006. Kawika Mitchell was tremendous the SB season.

Boley was a pretty good player for the giants while he was here. Rarely missed tackles, was solid in coverage. Kiwi in 2011 was one of the best SAM linebackers in football, believe he was top 5 in tackles for a loss. And Chase at least down the stretch played quite well.

Comparing 1980s to now is ridiculous.

Pierce got blown off the ball more times than I can count. Most of his tackles came 5 yards down the field. Mitchell was a solid stop gap. A band aid. We replaced him with Danny Clark the following year and we barely missed a beat. And when we won the SB in 2011, our defense was atrocious for the majority of the season. They were never a good unit. Heck, they were a solid unit at best. And even that was in spurts.

gumby74
05-10-2013, 08:57 AM
See below.



Well said.

As far as Blackburn goes......he made a dramatic improvement to the defense when he was re-signed midway through the 2011 season. It's like suddenly the defense found its brain.

Long story short, a good defense has factored into every NFL championship the Giants have won...and that includes solid play from the linebackers.

Well, if our defense continued to play like **** in 2011, we wouldn't have gone to the SB let alone made the playoffs. So I think it's a given.

jomo
05-10-2013, 08:57 AM
The depth is very shaky an injury or 2 and we have serious issues. U have to figure Rivers will miss at least 6 gamesIt's not possible that Reese believes we are set at LB. Even if he's ready to give it a go with our current starters (whoever those are lol) our depth, as you say, is pretty weak. We will beef this area up between now and the start of the season with at least some quality depth on the cheap.

Buddy333
05-10-2013, 09:21 AM
They where not going to rebuild the entire defense this offseason.

WiIdcat
05-10-2013, 09:53 AM
This board incessantly discusses our need for linebackers. We are not spending money to get one or drafting one high, so get over it!


False. The Giants signed LaVar Arrington to a 49 Million dollar contract in 2006 dollars! Just because we haven't drafted one high doesn't mean it's against the Giant ways, it's because there were better players on the board at the time. Same could've been said for Olineman... Pugh shot that argument down. How about "the giants won't take a RB in the first" Wilson shot that argument down too. Trust me if Von Miller was on the board in 2011 he would've been the choice.

Diamondring
05-10-2013, 10:10 AM
Don't forget that it is all about the matchups. Not all two back sets are good. Not all two te sets are good. Not all 4 wr sets are good. This applies to offense and defense. There may be chances that we need lbs and there are chances we don't need them. There are ways to work around the lack there of but one part of the team has got to be stronger like the wr and O-line. If you have about 3 good wrs and a good O-line, you can go without some things like a star te. If you have a good te added with the good wrs and O-line along with good qb like Eli, then you can deal more without things cause one part of the game is supreme.

One reason why I made predictions in the past that we can use 4 wr sets is cause of the players we had on the team like in 09 when we had a lot of good wrs. Their play would lower the weakness of the 4 wr set long as the play calling is good and does not put the offense in 3rd long situations.

qndarius3
05-10-2013, 10:20 AM
False. The Giants signed LaVar Arrington to a 49 Million dollar contract in 2006 dollars! Just because we haven't drafted one high doesn't mean it's against the Giant ways, it's because there were better players on the board at the time. Same could've been said for Olineman... Pugh shot that argument down. How about "the giants won't take a RB in the first" Wilson shot that argument down too. Trust me if Von Miller was on the board in 2011 he would've been the choice.

that was a different Defensive system...

WiIdcat
05-10-2013, 10:29 AM
that was a different Defensive system...

What does that have to do with what I said?? Are we running some type of 7-0 defense that doesn't require linebackers?? You said they won't spend money on a LB or draft one high. They HAVE spent money on LBs and as I said they most definitely would have drafted Von Miller if he was there in 2011. The value hasn't been there and that's why they haven't selected one high.

Show me a linebacker in the last 5 years that was available in the first that was better value than our pick... you won't find one.

Our current system doesn't devalue linebackers, the quality of the other 8 guys on defense has hidden the mediocrity of our LB core.

qndarius3
05-10-2013, 10:56 AM
What does that have to do with what I said?? Are we running some type of 7-0 defense that doesn't require linebackers?? You said they won't spend money on a LB or draft one high. They HAVE spent money on LBs and as I said they most definitely would have drafted Von Miller if he was there in 2011. The value hasn't been there and that's why they haven't selected one high.

Show me a linebacker in the last 5 years that was available in the first that was better value than our pick... you won't find one.

Our current system doesn't devalue linebackers, the quality of the other 8 guys on defense has hidden the mediocrity of our LB core.

clearly you didnt read the opening post i made. I am suggesting because of guys like RGIII/newton/vick/2 TE sets ect. that dictated the system that Fewell implemented.

this allows us to have a QB spy on passing downs (3rd safety) and which is why we bring in guys like rivers/curry/williams who are very athletic and run with TE's/QBs. We are running out 2 lbs a good portion of the time anyways.
Because of the way we are currently set up, not based on what weve done previously , you are not going to see the gmen bring in big ticket FA's or high draft picks on LBs, hence devaluing the position as a whole. Obviously the exception occurs if there is an extraordinary talent IE: Miller, but when you are picking in the 2nd half of the 1st round each year, that doesnt come up too often.