PDA

View Full Version : Facing 8 In The Box: With 2 Or More Wideouts



RoanokeFan
05-13-2013, 09:33 PM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/09/facing-eight-in-the-box-with-two-or-more-wideouts/


Earlier today, to add some context to which running backs were facing the most stacked boxes, we looked at which teams were doing so with a single receiver split out (https://www.profootballfocus.com/?p=79515).

That was something of a starter and what we’re about to do now is more of a main course in adding context to the piece we released yesterday (https://www.profootballfocus.com/?p=79458). Because now we’re going to look at which rushers had to face eight men (or more) in the box when their offense lined up with two or more receivers split away from the formation.

Logically, that is the real determining test. When defenses are adjusting to just one receiver split out wide, it gives them an extra defender to put in the box. When there are two then it becomes about whether a safety comes into the box to be the extra and form an eight-man front.So let’s start by seeing which defenses used the most stacked boxes.

Bears and Bills

At one end of the spectrum stands a team, the Buffalo Bills, that showed eight men in the box against run plays with two-plus split receivers a league-high 23.85% of the time. At the other end, the Chicago Bears responded the same way on just 5.19% of runs. That gives you an idea of how aggressive both teams were in shutting down the opposing run game, or, if you like, how confident they were in their front seven handling business.Here’s the full list:

Rank Team vs. 2 Split 8 In Box %





1
BUF
130
31
23.85%


2
NE
148
33
22.30%


3
CAR
151
27
17.88%


4
ATL
145
25
17.24%


5
HST
199
32
16.08%


6
BLT
261
41
15.71%


7
GB
126
19
15.08%


8
SL
148
21
14.19%


9
SEA
141
20
14.18%


10
OAK
170
24
14.12%


11
DET
157
22
14.01%


12
PHI
180
25
13.89%


13
IND
189
25
13.23%


14
NYG
182
24
13.19%


15
WAS
186
24
12.90%



*LEAGUE AVG
5434
686
12.62%





Read more...

joemorrisforprez
05-13-2013, 11:02 PM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/09/facing-eight-in-the-box-with-two-or-more-wideouts/

Bears and Bills

At the other end, the Chicago Bears responded the same way on just 5.19% of runs. That gives you an idea of how aggressive both teams were in shutting down the opposing run game, or, if you like, how confident they were in their front seven handling business.



Whoa, whoa, whoa....hold the phone, this must be a misprint.

Front 7?......I thought in "today's NFL", all you needed was a front 4 and then defensive backs.

Someone needs to pass the Bears a memo that linebackers are useless.

slipknottin
05-13-2013, 11:09 PM
Wish this showed how many were against option runs vs normal runs.

Generally need to have 8 in the box against the option

Drez
05-13-2013, 11:18 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa....hold the phone, this must be a misprint.

Front 7?......I thought in "today's NFL", all you needed was a front 4 and then defensive backs.

Someone needs to pass the Bears a memo that linebackers are useless.

You really need to join a support group or something.

joemorrisforprez
05-13-2013, 11:32 PM
You really need to join a support group or something.

I'm thinking about starting one on the GMB.....but DieHard would likely nuke it before anyone was able to get the help they were looking for.

giantsfan420
05-14-2013, 01:15 AM
no one disagrees that we could use better LB's JMFP...what ur not understanding, or refusing to might be the better term, where are these LB's? What LB's should we have taken that'd 180 the LB unit? You act like theres a poster here who wouldnt want to add a LB or realizes that having better LB's helps vs the run and short pass...again, where are these LBs? the LB's ur acting like we should be taking arent growing on trees. JR isnt turning down any option that fiscally makes sense...for petes sake we are signing guys like CUrry and Rivers bc thats pretty much the talent pool of actual available LBs...unless you'd like him to have open try outs **** Vermeil style and you lace em up once more in hopes your that LB bc these LBs u speak of gotta come from somewhere...unless you feel you can whine about it to the 9ers til they give us one of theirs...

TheEnigma
05-14-2013, 01:47 AM
no one disagrees that we could use better LB's JMFP...what ur not understanding, or refusing to might be the better term, where are these LB's? What LB's should we have taken that'd 180 the LB unit? You act like theres a poster here who wouldnt want to add a LB or realizes that having better LB's helps vs the run and short pass...again, where are these LBs? the LB's ur acting like we should be taking arent growing on trees. JR isnt turning down any option that fiscally makes sense...for petes sake we are signing guys like CUrry and Rivers bc thats pretty much the talent pool of actual available LBs...unless you'd like him to have open try outs **** Vermeil style and you lace em up once more in hopes your that LB bc these LBs u speak of gotta come from somewhere...unless you feel you can whine about it to the 9ers til they give us one of theirs...

You didn't know that 3 down LBs are available in all 7 rounds? There are tons of 6'3 to 6'4 240lb+ specimens out there that have the ability to not only shed blocks like a greek god but that effectively turn their hips in pass coverage and can cover Rob Gronkowskis. Jerry Reese just doesn't get it I guess.

repeatchamps
05-14-2013, 11:03 AM
Back to the LB'er whining again I see.:eek:

How about looking at this article and taking note of the fact that last season Bradshaw faced an 8 man front almost the least amount of time in the NFL yet the entire running game struggled plenty more than it should have at times. Something like that should open everyone's eyes here and realize how desperately this O-line needs to improve. So from this you can deduce (for all you LB'er jock riders) this draft need assessment: Pugh > Ogletree, Te'o and it is not even debateable.

TheAnalyst
05-14-2013, 11:22 AM
You didn't know that 3 down LBs are available in all 7 rounds? There are tons of 6'3 to 6'4 240lb+ specimens out there that have the ability to not only shed blocks like a greek god but that effectively turn their hips in pass coverage and can cover Rob Gronkowskis. Jerry Reese just doesn't get it I guess.

Point and case, Jacquian Williams in the 6th round. We need another LB like that. Not another one year deal LB who failed everywhere else and was mostly injured. But we would rather have that 3 safety set and thats why we drafted a 6'4'' safety in the 5th round.

Looking at this, Im trying to figure out how well these defenses did vs the run. What was their rank vs the run? Anyone know?

BeatYale
05-14-2013, 02:05 PM
Looking at this, Im trying to figure out how well these defenses did vs the run. What was their rank vs the run? Anyone know?

BUF 31st
NE 9th
CAR 14th
ATL 21st
HOU 7th
BAL 20th
GB 17th
STL 15th
SEA 10th
OAK 18th
DET 16th
PHI 23rd
IND 29th
NYG 25th
WAS 5th
....
CHI 8th

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 02:08 PM
no one disagrees that we could use better LB's JMFP...what ur not understanding, or refusing to might be the better term, where are these LB's? What LB's should we have taken that'd 180 the LB unit? You act like theres a poster here who wouldnt want to add a LB or realizes that having better LB's helps vs the run and short pass...again, where are these LBs? the LB's ur acting like we should be taking arent growing on trees. JR isnt turning down any option that fiscally makes sense...for petes sake we are signing guys like CUrry and Rivers bc thats pretty much the talent pool of actual available LBs...unless you'd like him to have open try outs **** Vermeil style and you lace em up once more in hopes your that LB bc these LBs u speak of gotta come from somewhere...unless you feel you can whine about it to the 9ers til they give us one of theirs...

Again....these linebackers are coming from a place called "college". Believe it or not, linebackers in college cover tight ends now. That's because all these athletic tight ends in the NFL came from college too.


And again....maybe for the 20th time.......Khaseem Greene would have been a perfect fit for this defense.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 02:12 PM
BUF 31st
NE 9th
CAR 14th
ATL 21st
HOU 7th
BAL 20th
GB 17th
STL 15th
SEA 10th
OAK 18th
DET 16th
PHI 23rd
IND 29th
NYG 25th
WAS 5th
....
CHI 8th

And just keep in mind Chicago faces A.P. twice per season.

Buddy333
05-14-2013, 03:34 PM
The difference between the Giants run defense and the Bears run defense is about 28 yards a game. With better DL play by the Giants they can be just as good. The Bears do have a good DL.

Drez
05-14-2013, 03:58 PM
You didn't know that 3 down LBs are available in all 7 rounds? There are tons of 6'3 to 6'4 240lb+ specimens out there that have the ability to not only shed blocks like a greek god but that effectively turn their hips in pass coverage and can cover Rob Gronkowskis. Jerry Reese just doesn't get it I guess.And all 4th round picks like Greene will become Harry Carson's.

Drez
05-14-2013, 03:59 PM
And just keep in mind Chicago faces A.P. twice per season.How'd their defensive line play?

slipknottin
05-14-2013, 04:00 PM
Again....these linebackers are coming from a place called "college". Believe it or not, linebackers in college cover tight ends now. That's because all these athletic tight ends in the NFL came from college too.


And again....maybe for the 20th time.......Khaseem Greene would have been a perfect fit for this defense.

J Will > Greene. The giants need either a Mike or a Sam, Greene is neither.

TheEnigma
05-14-2013, 04:04 PM
How'd their defensive line play?

Wait, you mean good play from the 3 tech spot helps out their run defense?

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 04:10 PM
J Will > Greene. The giants need either a Mike or a Sam, Greene is neither.

I don't know how you can say Will is better than Greene at this point. Greene had a stellar tenure at Rutgers, and hasn't been able to prove himself on a pro stage yet. And Greene could absolutely play Sam.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 04:11 PM
How'd their defensive line play?

Oh, okay, so it was all defensive line play? Right.

Buddy333
05-14-2013, 04:12 PM
I don't know how you can say Will is better than Greene at this point. Greene had a stellar tenure at Rutgers, and hasn't been able to prove himself on a pro stage yet. And Greene could absolutely play Sam.This has to be a joke right? Williams has actually played in the pros while Greene has yet to play a down.

Buddy333
05-14-2013, 04:13 PM
Oh, okay, so it was all defensive line play? Right.You honestly don't see how a good DL slowing down the RB makes it easier for the LB's?

Drez
05-14-2013, 04:21 PM
Oh, okay, so it was all defensive line play? Right.Good defensive line play makes life easier for linebackers. You seem to fail to recognize that fact or choose to ignore it. When the DL plays well, the LB perform better. When they don't perform well, the linebackers don't.

Drez
05-14-2013, 04:21 PM
You honestly don't see how a good DL slowing down the RB makes it easier for the LB's?Or even just eating up blockers to free up the LBs to make a play on the ball carrier.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 04:22 PM
You honestly don't see how a good DL slowing down the RB makes it easier for the LB's?

I just think it's funny that you don't give any credit to linebackers at all. Might as well play a 4-0-7.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Or even just eating up blockers to free up the LBs to make a play on the ball carrier.

Yup, that too....it's all defensive line and the secondary.

Drez
05-14-2013, 04:24 PM
I just think it's funny that you don't give any credit to linebackers at all. Might as well play a 4-0-7.I think it's funny, well more sad, that you don't see how defensive line play directly impacts linebacker play.

Buddy333
05-14-2013, 04:25 PM
I just think it's funny that you don't give any credit to linebackers at all. Might as well play a 4-0-7.You do realize that if the runner doesn't make t past the line of scrimmage it's a good thing right? Or as was said, eating up the blockers to give the LB's a shot?

TheEnigma
05-14-2013, 04:26 PM
The Bears also had Brian Urlacher who was a special talent at the LB position. Even though he pretty much only has 1-2 seasons left in the tank, he's still better than anything we have at Mike or Sam. Again, that sort of talent goes in the top 10 for a reason.

slipknottin
05-14-2013, 06:03 PM
I don't know how you can say Will is better than Greene at this point. Greene had a stellar tenure at Rutgers, and hasn't been able to prove himself on a pro stage yet. And Greene could absolutely play Sam.

Have you watched Greene play? He isn't physical at all. He's a weakside run and chase Lb who needs to be kept clean

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 06:19 PM
Have you watched Greene play? He isn't physical at all. He's a weakside run and chase Lb who needs to be kept clean

Yes, I've seen Greene play. Among other things, he lead the NCAA in forced fumbles, so apparently he's physical enough.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 06:20 PM
You do realize that if the runner doesn't make t past the line of scrimmage it's a good thing right? Or as was said, eating up the blockers to give the LB's a shot?

Yeah, thanks for that reminder.

It's also true that once the play gets beyond the front 4, we need guys that can make a play.......one more reason for last years #31 ranking.

Redeyejedi
05-14-2013, 06:21 PM
Again....these linebackers are coming from a place called "college". Believe it or not, linebackers in college cover tight ends now. That's because all these athletic tight ends in the NFL came from college too.


And again....maybe for the 20th time.......Khaseem Greene would have been a perfect fit for this defense.How he is a run and chase Weakside LB. Weakside LB is the 1 spot where we have capable bodies

Buddy333
05-14-2013, 06:22 PM
Yeah, thanks for that reminder.It's also true that once the play gets beyond the front 4, we need guys that can make a play.......one more reason for last years #31 ranking.Yeah so a better DL can reduce their YPG average and make them a top 10 defense. Stop the run and pressure the QB. Chop 50 yards a game off and they are a top 10 defense.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 06:29 PM
How he is a run and chase Weakside LB. Weakside LB is the 1 spot where we have capable bodies

His stats tell me he's a linebacker that can play the run, the pass, drop back in coverage, or pressure the QB.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-11/sports/ct-spt-0512-pompei-on-bears-chicago-20130512_1_khaseem-greene-linebacker-bears



The fourth-round pick made 27 impact tackles at linebacker, tied for the most in college football, according to STATS. Impact tackles are defined as tackles on gains of 1 or 2 yards that do not result in first downs.

Greene forced six fumbles last year, also tied for most in the country.

He made plays moving backward. His coverage burn percentage of 51.6 percent was best among linebackers at the combine.

And he made plays moving forward. He had 21 pressures and 18 QB knockdowns, fourth-most among linebackers.

Said Greene: "I like to blitz. I like to cover. I just like to hit, really."

He has a nice package of skills, especially considering he became a linebacker only two years ago. Greene came to Rutgers as a 210-pound free safety. But he kept growing to the point where he now weighs 245.

Redeyejedi
05-14-2013, 06:30 PM
Have you watched Greene play? He isn't physical at all. He's a weakside run and chase Lb who needs to be kept cleanLOL just posted that. Greene is not who he thinks he is. There have been a few guys the Giants passed on, 1 was Bobby Wagner but he was undersized and Im not sure the Giants would of played him at MLB he went in the middle of the 2nd round so the Giants would of had to use a 1st. Another was Arthur Brown and some teams were scared by his shoulder maybe the Giants were 1 of those. Kiko Alonso was a guy I was really high on and had the ideal measurements but he had character concerns and went before the Giants 2nd round pick plus im not sure if they would of viewed him as a MLB as well.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 06:32 PM
LOL just posted that. Greene is not who he thinks he is. There have been a few guys the Giants passed on, 1 was Bobby Wagner but he was undersized and Im not sure the Giants would of played him at MLB he went in the middle of the 2nd round so the Giants would of had to use a 1st. Another was Arthur Brown and some teams were scared by his shoulder maybe the Giants were 1 of those. Kiko Alonso was a guy I was really high on and had the ideal measurements but he had character concerns and went before the Giants 2nd round pick plus im not sure if they would of viewed him as a MLB as well.


The stats I just posted up must be wrong then. Someone should call up the Chicago Tribune's Bears beat reporter and let him know.

When he was forcing all those fumbles, making those impact tackles, and pressuring and knocking down the QB.....all the work of an imposter!

Redeyejedi
05-14-2013, 06:34 PM
His stats tell me he's a linebacker that can play the run, the pass, drop back in coverage, or pressure the QB.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-11/sports/ct-spt-0512-pompei-on-bears-chicago-20130512_1_khaseem-greene-linebacker-bears What are those stats telling me I have no problem with Greene as a player but he is a WLB.The Giants have WLB's. The Giants need an every down stack and shed MLB that can also play the pass those guys are very hard to find maybe 1 or 2 a draft

Redeyejedi
05-14-2013, 06:36 PM
The stats I just posted up must be wrong then. Someone should call up the Chicago Tribune's Bears beat reporter and let him know.

When he was forcing all those fumbles, making those impact tackles, and pressuring and knocking down the QB.....all the work of an imposter!How does pressuring the QB stats prove anything. That means he blitzed and came clean on the QB. Greg Jones had awesome numbers to where the F is he right now

Drez
05-14-2013, 06:38 PM
What are those stats telling me I have no problem with Greene as a player but he is a WLB.The Giants have WLB's. The Giants need an every down stack and shed MLB that can also play the pass those guys are very hard to find maybe 1 or 2 a draftForget it. He thinks guys like Harry Carson grow on trees and are available in all rounds of the draft.

TheEnigma
05-14-2013, 06:39 PM
What are those stats telling me I have no problem with Greene as a player but he is a WLB.The Giants have WLB's. The Giants need an every down stack and shed MLB that can also play the pass those guys are very hard to find maybe 1 or 2 a draft

I keep trying to tell him that but he either doesn't grasp the concept or refuses to address how rare those type of linebackers are.

Redeyejedi
05-14-2013, 06:39 PM
Forget it. He thinks guys like Harry Carson grow on trees and are available in all rounds of the draft.The "Sure Thing LB's" have been busts for the most part. We have 2 on the roster.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 08:16 PM
What are those stats telling me I have no problem with Greene as a player but he is a WLB.The Giants have WLB's. The Giants need an every down stack and shed MLB that can also play the pass those guys are very hard to find maybe 1 or 2 a draft

Greene is an OLB, but could play Will or Sam.....the fact he's not a MLB doesn't mean he wouldn't have upgraded the linebacker position. And he was very effective behind and at the line of srimmage, so this notion that he's not physical enough is simply refuted by his production.


Forget it. He thinks guys like Harry Carson grow on trees and are available in all rounds of the draft.

No, I referenced that Harry Carson was a 4th round pick....meaning that it is possible to draft someone who turns out to be a great player, as opposed to believing that only a top ten 1st round MLB prospect will amount to anything in the NFL.


I keep trying to tell him that but he either doesn't grasp the concept or refuses to address how rare those type of linebackers are.

Good middle linebacker prospects were available early and later in the draft. For example, Nico Johnson was available in the 4th round; A.J. Klein was avaiable in the 5th round; Vince Williams was available in the 6th round; Michael Mauti went in the 7th; Bruce Taylor went undrafted but picked up as an UFA by the Bengals.

I'm not expecting the Giants to land the next Butkus, but if that's the rationale you are following to justify drafting an MLB, it's simply unrealistic.

Seems like the lot of you are making the perfect the enemy of the good.....because we couldn't be guaranteed to land the next Carl Banks or Harry Carson in the 4th-7th rounds, don't draft a linebacker at all.

Imgrate
05-14-2013, 08:23 PM
Bryan kehl, phil dillard, adrian tracy, jwill, jon goff, sintim, greg jones. Reese has drafted plenty of guys. Stop trolling.

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 08:27 PM
Bryan kehl, phil dillard, adrian tracy, jwill, jon goff, sintim, greg jones. Reese has drafted plenty of guys. Stop trolling.

I think you meant to post this in the "Reese isn't gifted when it comes to picking linebackers" thread....

....but this list does make it more understandable why he has just given up the last 2 drafts.....if I missed this often, I'd get discouraged, too.

:popcorn:

joemorrisforprez
05-14-2013, 09:39 PM
This is a pretty interesting video with Billick and Perry Fewell talking about how the Giants build an 8-man box.

Note that Fewell refers to the Sam linebacker as the Will linebacker (right around 1:30+) in his "over" defensive front (lining him with the 3-technique, as opposed to the offensive front).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBWg4YtRNRI&feature=player_embedded

(This was originally posted at www.sportswrath.com (http://www.sportswrath.com), a Giants-based fan site).

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 01:01 AM
The stats I just posted up must be wrong then. Someone should call up the Chicago Tribune's Bears beat reporter and let him know.

When he was forcing all those fumbles, making those impact tackles, and pressuring and knocking down the QB.....all the work of an imposter!

Forced fumbles have nothing to do with anything.

Greene doesn't take on blockers, and he is totally incapable of stacking and shedding.

Aka, not physical.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 01:06 AM
The "Sure Thing LB's" have been busts for the most part. We have 2 on the roster.

In recent years I believe there have been 3 linebackers per draft that are full time 3 down players at either SAM or Mike.

That's it. And they generally are gone by the end of the 2nd round

BigBlue wins
05-15-2013, 08:55 AM
You didn't know that 3 down LBs are available in all 7 rounds? There are tons of 6'3 to 6'4 240lb+ specimens out there that have the ability to not only shed blocks like a greek god but that effectively turn their hips in pass coverage and can cover Rob Gronkowskis. Jerry Reese just doesn't get it I guess.

I loled :)

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 09:16 AM
In recent years I believe there have been 3 linebackers per draft that are full time 3 down players at either SAM or Mike.

That's it. And they generally are gone by the end of the 2nd roundThats what I was saying there have been very few. Last 2 drafts you have

Luke Kuechly - Whom I wasnt as high on as most but still would of taken him for sure if he got to the Giants pick but he got nowhere near us

Bobby Wagner- The guy I liked, However the Giants would of had to take him at #32 as he didnt get to there 2nd round pick. Plus he is on the short side and im not sure if the Giants would of viewed him as a MLB. Seahawks use him as a MLB but play a weird front with essentially with 3 DT's

Kiko Alonso- Another guy I liked , He went to the Bills and many thought it was a reach however it was right on par with where I graded him. has the size and athletic ability the Giants covet but also has character concerns.I thought he had the ability to play anywhere but the Giants probably would of viewed him as a WLB.

Arthur Brown - This is the 1 time where I felt the Giants passed on good value at LB. I think his talent was much better then where he was picked but some teams were worried about his shoulder. Was that a concern for the Giants its possible. We will have to see how this plays out but this is the 1 guy they have passed on where criticism may be warranted

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 12:37 PM
Forced fumbles have nothing to do with anything.

Greene doesn't take on blockers, and he is totally incapable of stacking and shedding.

Aka, not physical.

If you want to discount all his stats, then it's your opinion versus facts. The guy flies to the ball and makes plays....often, opponents aren't in position to even block him.

Can't really go anywhere from there except to say I'll trust what I've seen, which is apparently what the statisticans also have recorded. The kid is a playmaker, and will only get better.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 12:58 PM
If you want to discount all his stats, then it's your opinion versus facts. The guy flies to the ball and makes plays....often, opponents aren't in position to even block him.

Can't really go anywhere from there except to say I'll trust what I've seen, which is apparently what the statisticans also have recorded. The kid is a playmaker, and will only get better.

I'm not discounting his stats. But if you think forced fumbles have anything to do with him being willing and able to stack and shed blockers then you are sorely mistaken.

His stats don't tell you how he plays.

Like you said, he flies around and makes tackles. He is a good player when he is unblocked. But that makes him a weakside linebacker. Which the giants already have. Ask him to stack and shed and he is a subpar player.

TCHOF
05-15-2013, 01:12 PM
Forced fumbles have nothing to do with anything.

Greene doesn't take on blockers, and he is totally incapable of stacking and shedding.

Aka, not physical.

Worst thing that you can say about a LB IMO . . . not physical

TheEnigma
05-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Nico Johnson

He was taken off the field on 3rd downs for C.J. Mosley and this was in college. I have a hard time believing he is going to excel in the coverage aspects of being a defensive player in the NFL. I'll stick by the opinion of him being a ST player at the next level but maybe he has a chance since the Chiefs employ an old school 3-4 defense that soley focuses on eating up blockers with the Dline.


A.J. Klein

Another young man with coverage concerns at the next level. Watch his movement ability in college and ask yourself how well that will translate to being a 3 down LB. He should make a fine backup prospect though.


Vince Williams

I even mocked this kid to us earlier in the year as a 5th/6th round pick but there was no surprise it was because of his tenacity and ability to shed blocks as a 2 DOWN LB as opposed to a realistic dream of him being a full time starter. A lot of these LB choices you are getting behind would only be special package players for run based teams.


Michael Mauti

I'm assuming the ACL injury scared the Giants off here even though it was the 7th round. They chose to find insurance for the interior of the Oline and for Andre Brown instead.


Bruce Taylor

You have a fascination with 2 down LB prospects but I actually like this kids chance at Cincinnati. He has a good shot to dethrone one of the worst linebackers in the NFL in Rey Maualuga. Burfict probably moves inside at some point and then Taylor becomes the SAM.

KillaRich
05-15-2013, 03:03 PM
Again....these linebackers are coming from a place called "college". Believe it or not, linebackers in college cover tight ends now. That's because all these athletic tight ends in the NFL came from college too.


And again....maybe for the 20th time.......Khaseem Greene would have been a perfect fit for this defense.

When Giants traded up in the 4th I could have sworn it was to get K. Greene.... boy was I dissapointed ..... smh

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 04:06 PM
I'm not discounting his stats. But if you think forced fumbles have anything to do with him being willing and able to stack and shed blockers then you are sorely mistaken.

His stats don't tell you how he plays.

Like you said, he flies around and makes tackles. He is a good player when he is unblocked. But that makes him a weakside linebacker. Which the giants already have. Ask him to stack and shed and he is a subpar player.

His playing style is based on evading blocks, not blowing them up....and he tends to get his pads high, which I think is a throwback to his safety days, and I believe can be coached out at the pro level. He was called upon to be a gambling player, and he thrived at it. I've seen enough of his play to believe he can play either OLB position. Yes, Will is where his abilities are best suited, but given the Giants current group, I have little doubt he could eventually start at Will or Sam.

Most draft analysts identified offensive line (specifically RT) and linebacker as the two biggest needs for the Giants. In many cases it was a 1A / 1B type of priority according to them. These are people who make their living from covering the NFL. Many of them identified Ogletree as a possible pick depending on whether LB was going to be selected early, or else others - including Khaseem Greene - from round 3 on. So really, my opinion isn't some sort of wild man in the desert deal..... according to professional analysts, linebacker was a very big need, and not specifically MLB.

J-Will is a promising player, but he's no lock at the position....he had issues with shedding blocks. Really, the entire Giants linebacking unit had that issue. I understand the need for linemen to occupy blockers, but I didn't see anything in 2012 to suggest that suddenly a kid like Green would downgrade this unit.

Since we replaced an MLB (Blackburn) with an MLB (Connor), and have not replaced and OLB (Boley), the possibility of going after an OLB in the draft is not unreasonable. And as I also noted, MLB prospects were available later as well.

I'm hopeful DaMontre Moore, Cooper Taylor, and Aaron Curry are the answers in the draft and free agency respectively.

But I disagree with an argument that Khaseem Greene would not be a good fit in Fewell's defense, or that we are so stacked at Will that he couldn't find his way on the field as a Will or Sam. Further, in Fewell's 3 safety alignment on passing downs, it's often the case that the 2 OLBS remain on the field, which would allow someone like Greene to be a 3 down player regardless of scheme. Sometimes, J-Will was the only guy at linebacker....that tells me how little speed we had at that position. Someone like Greene could conceivably be on the field alongside JWill; at 245, he would be tougher covering the middle of the field than an additional safety.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Cooper Taylor completely converted to linebacker, because he seems to be the closest fit to Khaseem Greene. I think Taylor was the consolation pick to Greene because Reese went with Nassib and figured he'd need to come back to someone who could deal with the linebacker position in the following round.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 04:08 PM
Every year the "experts" say they need a LB and every year they don't get one early in the draft. They have won 2 of the last 6 Super Bowls. It's safe to say they know what they are doing. They said they wanted to fix the trenches and they did. Why is tis so hard to understand?

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 04:18 PM
Every year the "experts" say they need a LB and every year they don't get one early in the draft. They have won 2 of the last 6 Super Bowls. It's safe to say they know what they are doing. They said they wanted to fix the trenches and they did. Why is tis so hard to understand?

I'm not arguing with picking Pugh, Moore, or Hankins.

Cooper Taylor will most likely be their 3 safety version of a linebacker, and DaMontre Moore will most likely be their edge rushing version of a linebacker.

But let's get real here.....Eli Manning is the reason we won 2 Super Bowls, not some sort of divine wisdom in how Reese has handled the linebacker spot.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 04:37 PM
His playing style is based on evading blocks, not blowing them up.....

Exactly. Which is why he is a Will only.

Giants need a mike or a Sam.

Mike and Sam the most important quality is ability to stack and shed. The opposite of what Greene provides

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 04:45 PM
He was taken off the field on 3rd downs for C.J. Mosley and this was in college. I have a hard time believing he is going to excel in the coverage aspects of being a defensive player in the NFL. I'll stick by the opinion of him being a ST player at the next level but maybe he has a chance since the Chiefs employ an old school 3-4 defense that soley focuses on eating up blockers with the Dline.



Another young man with coverage concerns at the next level. Watch his movement ability in college and ask yourself how well that will translate to being a 3 down LB. He should make a fine backup prospect though.



I even mocked this kid to us earlier in the year as a 5th/6th round pick but there was no surprise it was because of his tenacity and ability to shed blocks as a 2 DOWN LB as opposed to a realistic dream of him being a full time starter. A lot of these LB choices you are getting behind would only be special package players for run based teams.



I'm assuming the ACL injury scared the Giants off here even though it was the 7th round. They chose to find insurance for the interior of the Oline and for Andre Brown instead.



You have a fascination with 2 down LB prospects but I actually like this kids chance at Cincinnati. He has a good shot to dethrone one of the worst linebackers in the NFL in Rey Maualuga. Burfict probably moves inside at some point and then Taylor becomes the SAM.I would be surprised if any of those players had significant careers in the NFL. They look like guys that will be lucky to get 2nd contracts. Plus the Giants have 1 maybe 2 choices they dont have the luxury of listing 8 names waiting who pans out then say look I told u so they should of taken this guy

As I said the only guy they have passed on who I think could have a significant career and the value was favorable is Arthur Brown

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 04:50 PM
Exactly. Which is why he is a Will only.

Giants need a mike or a Sam.

Mike and Sam the most important quality is ability to stack and shed. The opposite of what Greene provides

He was given a position, and a role, and excelled at it.....that doesn't mean he couldn't handle other duties if needed.

Regardless, he's a Bear now, and from all accounts, they don't seem to be at a loss as to what to do with him.



The Bears like his versatility. Greene says he can play each of the three linebacker positions. His coverage skills that he developed as a safety could make him more valuable in the middle in the Bears zone defense.

''I could play anything,'' Greene said. ''If a coach told me to punt the ball, I'd learn how to do it, just to be successful and make a team. I can see myself playing Sam, Mike, Will -- whatever coach needs me to do or wants me to do, I'm going to work my hardest to be the best at it.''

ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper, Jr. had Greene ranked as the No. 6 outside linebacker in the draft. He ran a 4.67 40-yard dash at the combine, did 17 reps of 225 pounds and had a 30-inch vertical.

"He is a tackling machine who jumps out on you when yo watch him on film,'' Kiper, Jr. wrote in his 2013 draft report. ''He has great read-react ability and he as disruptive all over the field. Greene is your prototypical weakside outside linebacker in the NFL. In a pro game that has become so pass-happy, his coverage skills make him even more valuable. Green isn't the biggest guy in the draft, but pound-for-pound he is one of the best football players in this group -- at any position.''

http://boards.giants.com/showthread.php?30824-Facing-8-In-The-Box-With-2-Or-More-Wideouts&p=766503&posted=1#post766503




http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/Khaseem Greene In Action.jpg

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 04:55 PM
He was given a position, and a role, and excelled at it.....that doesn't mean he couldn't handle other duties if needed.

Regardless, he's a Bear now, and from all accounts, they don't seem to be at a loss as to what to do with him.




http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/Khaseem Greene In Action.jpg
Yeah they know what to do with him they are playing him at Weakside LB exactly the thing we have been telling u over and over again. That in fact is the only spot where he took snaps at mini camp

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 04:59 PM
Yeah they know what to do with him they are playing him at Weakside LB exactly the thing we have been telling u over and over again. That in fact is the only spot where he took snaps at mini camp

Again, you make it sound like the Giants have the Will position nailed down. They don't until we see proof on the field.

And Greene isn't a 1 trick pony.

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 05:00 PM
Again, you make it sound like the Giants have the Will position nailed down. They don't until we see proof on the field.Yes Jacquain Williams and Keith Rivers are more then capable starters at Weakside LB.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 05:21 PM
Yes Jacquain Williams and Keith Rivers are more then capable starters at Weakside LB.

Rivers hasn't proven he can stay healthy. I like JWilliams, but he's not disruptive.

And Greene can play either outside position, and could play interior in passing downs.

acepilot1990
05-15-2013, 05:40 PM
Good job.

BlueSanta
05-15-2013, 05:46 PM
Rivers hasn't proven he can stay healthy. I like JWilliams, but he's not disruptive.

And Greene can play either outside position, and could play interior in passing downs.

The Giants brought him in for a workout prior to the draft. They clearly didn't like what they saw or heard from him. I think it is safe to say they weren't alone either. Many had him as 2nd round prospect yet he fell all the way to the 4th. For a guy you claim can play every LB position, that is extremely odd. So either he in fact cannot play as many positions as you think, or he did horribly in interviews.

Whatever the reason, the Giants were not the only team to overlook this kid for some reason.


But keep on beating that dead horse.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 05:59 PM
I'm not arguing with picking Pugh, Moore, or Hankins. Cooper Taylor will most likely be their 3 safety version of a linebacker, and DaMontre Moore will most likely be their edge rushing version of a linebacker.But let's get real here.....Eli Manning is the reason we won 2 Super Bowls, not some sort of divine wisdom in how Reese has handled the linebacker spot.So the defense shutting down the greatest offense to ever play the game had nothin to do with it?

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 06:05 PM
So the defense shutting down the greatest offense to ever play the game had nothin to do with it?

Of course....in 2007, the defense played lights out, starting with Tuck, Strahan, and Osi....Pierce and Kawika Mitchell as well. In 2011, again, Tuck re-emerged, Canty played great down the stretch, JPP played well, and again, the linebackers (particularly Boley, plus Blackburn) did well.

But that was 2 seasons ago.....age and injuries have taken their toll, and we've gone 2 seasons without taking a pure linebacker in the draft. Those are the facts, friend.

And in both 2007 and 2011, it was up to Eli to save each game, and he did.....no Eli, no championships.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 06:16 PM
And Greene can play either outside position, and could play interior in passing downs.

No, not being able to stack and shed precludes him from playing strongside. Its that simple.

Greene is a Will linebacker. That is the least needed position of the three spots for the giants to fill.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 06:19 PM
No, not being able to stack and shed precludes him from playing strongside. Its that simple.

Greene is a Will linebacker. That is the least needed position of the three spots for the giants to fill.

With all due respect, I'm going to take Khaseem Greene's opinion on Khaseem Greene over yours. He's confident he could play any position needed. And the stats in my opinion justify his confidence.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 06:23 PM
With all due respect, I'm going to take Khaseem Greene's opinion on Khaseem Greene over yours. He's confident he could play any position needed. And the stats in my opinion justify his confidence.

Your stats are what he did at the weakside linebacker. How do those indicate his ability to stack and shed?

And I could give a rats butt about what a player thinks they can do. All of them believe they are better than they are.

Drez
05-15-2013, 06:23 PM
Of course....in 2007, the defense played lights out, starting with Tuck, Strahan, and Osi....Pierce and Kawika Mitchell as well. In 2011, again, Tuck re-emerged, Canty played great down the stretch, JPP played well, and again, the linebackers (particularly Boley, plus Blackburn) did well.

But that was 2 seasons ago.....age and injuries have taken their toll, and we've gone 2 seasons without taking a pure linebacker in the draft. Those are the facts, friend.

And in both 2007 and 2011, it was up to Eli to save each game, and he did.....no Eli, no championships.So, pretty much, you're saying if the defensive line is playing well it elevates the play of the rest of the defense? Strange.

Drez
05-15-2013, 06:26 PM
And I could give a rats butt about what a player thinks they can do. All of them believe they are better than they are.For real. Does he really think the guy is going to say, "I'm limited as a player, I can only excel at the one spot."

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 06:28 PM
With all due respect, I'm going to take Khaseem Greene's opinion on Khaseem Greene over yours. He's confident he could play any position needed. And the stats in my opinion justify his confidence. College Stats are worthless in projecting how good players will be in the NFL. Greg Jones had 154 Tackles and 9 Sacks in the Big 10 in 2009

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 06:28 PM
But that was 2 seasons ago.....age and injuries have taken their toll, and we've gone 2 seasons without taking a pure linebacker in the draft. Those are the facts, friend..

They drafted 4 Linebackers in the past 4 drafts. 5 in the last 5, 7 in the last 6. I mean what does any of this mean?

I believe Reese has spent more draft picks on linebackers than any other position since he became GM.

Drez
05-15-2013, 06:29 PM
College Stats are worthless in projecting how good players will be in the NFL. Greg Jones had 154 Tackles and 9 Sacks in the Big 10 in 2009Very few players get drafted without having "good stats" in college.

Drez
05-15-2013, 06:30 PM
They drafted 4 Linebackers in the past 4 drafts. 5 in the last 5, 7 in the last 6. I mean what does any of this mean?That we're letting those young guys make their names this year.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 06:31 PM
That we're letting those young guys make their names this year.

Of all the LBs the giants have drafted, J Will is the only one still on the team at linebacker.

The others are all released, or switched positions (DeOssie is only a LS, Tracy moved to DE)

TheEnigma
05-15-2013, 06:32 PM
With all due respect, I'm going to take Khaseem Greene's opinion on Khaseem Greene over yours. He's confident he could play any position needed. And the stats in my opinion justify his confidence.

What if JWill or any other linebacker on this team said those statements? Why does Khaseem Greene receive this magical praise and goodwill from you? Which linebacker are you going to bandwagon next year for the team to draft?

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 06:41 PM
What if JWill or any other linebacker on this team said those statements? Why does Khaseem Greene receive this magical praise and goodwill from you? Which linebacker are you going to bandwagon next year for the team to draft?

Theres a long list of LBs this place got obsessed with.

Marcus Freeman (out of the league due to heart condition)
Clint Sintim (yes, a lot of people here LOVED him)
Casey Matthews (was terrible and may be released)
Jamar Chaney (lost his starting job)

And theres a list of undrafted guys too, like Micah Johnson.

I wish I could remember them all.

But suffice to say, the forum seems to go nuts over guys who dont really amount to anything.

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 06:42 PM
Very few players get drafted without having "good stats" in college.the best LB on the team Jacquain Williams was the least productive college LB.

Drez
05-15-2013, 06:48 PM
the best LB on the team Jacquain Williams was the least productive college LB.Yup. But we got a good look at him because of JPP.

But, mostly I was just saying most guys that get drafted have good stats in college. That, in no small part, is why they are getting drafted.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 07:20 PM
So, pretty much, you're saying if the defensive line is playing well it elevates the play of the rest of the defense? Strange.

I wasn't saying that, but I don't think that's a wrong statement. My point is that good linebacker play is part of the reason the Giants won in 2007 and 2011.

But again, that was 2 years ago, and since then, the position has degraded due to age and injury, and without any draft picks to strengthen the longterm depth of the position. This was something that many draft day analysts and fans noted.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 07:29 PM
Your stats are what he did at the weakside linebacker. How do those indicate his ability to stack and shed?

And I could give a rats butt about what a player thinks they can do. All of them believe they are better than they are.

As I mentioned before, it's better to avoid a block, then to have to take one on and shed it.

Since Greene has the ability to avoid blockers altogether, that's his preferred technique, and as the stats indicate, it works.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1724998/khaseem-greene




04/24/2013 - 2013 NFL DRAFT RANG'S GANG: OLB: Khaseem Greene, Rutgers, 6-1, 241, 4.67...Green rarely is mentioned in the same breath as Manti Te'o, Kevin Minter, Arthur Brown or Alec Ogletree as one of the elite linebackers of the 2013 class but I'm not sure why. He's the two-time defending Big East Defensive Player of the Year since making the transition to linebacker after starting all 12 games at free safety in 2010. Whereas most of the "elite" linebackers in this draft class talk about making big plays, Greene actually made them, playing a role in a staggering 19 turnovers (12 forced fumbles, six interceptions, one fumble recovery) over a remarkable career. - Rob Rang, NFLDraftScout.com

STRENGTHS: Rare athleticism for the position. Possesses the agility and straight-line speed to elude blockers and beat backs to the edge. Showed improved patience and awareness in his second season at linebacker, rarely taking false steps and exploding towards the ball.

Reliable open-field tackler, generally wrapping both arms around the ballcarrier. Best trait might be his incredible ability to create turnovers. Rips violently at the ball as he makes tackles, showing excellent hand-eye coordination and impressive strength.

Times his blitz well, showing a quick burst to close. Fluid in coverage due to his experience at safety and possesses good ball skills. Shows some natural open-field running skills once the ball is in his hands, as well.

Good bloodlines. Is the half-brother of Pittsburgh running back Ray Graham, also expected to be drafted in 2013. Competitive. Served as a member of the punt and kickoff defense squads in 2012.

WEAKNESSES: Obvious size limitations. Isn't just short; possesses a rocked-up frame that isn't likely to be able to handle much additional weight.

Can get lost in the traffic in tight quarters, losing sight of the ball. A bit inconsistent in his overall physicality. Prefers to slip by blockers, rather than physically taking them on. Sometimes spends too much time going for the strip, rather than simply driving the ballcarrier to the turf.

Teams will want to check Greene's medical grade due to the broken ankle suffered in 2011.


Listen guys, I know you are all smoking the Reese Pipe. I love the guy too, he's a great GM. And I think Nassib will be a good QB some day....most likely never for the Giants. But just because Greene wasn't taken, there's no need to go all sour grapes on the kid.

Bottom line is he would have found his way on the field, as a linebacker, and been the difference maker that the Giants haven't had at linebacker since Antonio Pierce.

Reese maybe got something close with Cooper, I hope. It's pretty obvious he felt he needed a guy that had the same sort of physical gifts that Greene has.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 07:35 PM
As I mentioned before, it's better to avoid a block, then to have to take one on and shed it.

Since Greene has the ability to avoid blockers altogether, that's his preferred technique, and as the stats indicate, it works.



Yes. It works fine for a weakside linebacker who is protected by big bodies in front of him. It doesn't work at mike or Sam where the linebacker has to engage and shed


If you have a mike or Sam who is unwilling or unable to stack and shed and instead tries to run around blocks, he will never play. It's that simple

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 07:52 PM
Yes. It works fine for a weakside linebacker who is protected by big bodies in front of him. It doesn't work at mike or Sam where the linebacker has to engage and shed

If you have a mike or Sam who is unwilling or unable to stack and shed and instead tries to run around blocks, he will never play. It's that simple

I suppose we'll see how he does with the Bears....I'll let you know.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 07:53 PM
I suppose we'll see how he does with the Bears....I'll let you know.

The bears are playing him at weakside linebacker...

Eli TO Shockey
05-15-2013, 07:57 PM
no one disagrees that we could use better LB's JMFP...what ur not understanding, or refusing to might be the better term, where are these LB's? What LB's should we have taken that'd 180 the LB unit? You act like theres a poster here who wouldnt want to add a LB or realizes that having better LB's helps vs the run and short pass...again, where are these LBs? the LB's ur acting like we should be taking arent growing on trees. JR isnt turning down any option that fiscally makes sense...for petes sake we are signing guys like CUrry and Rivers bc thats pretty much the talent pool of actual available LBs...unless you'd like him to have open try outs **** Vermeil style and you lace em up once more in hopes your that LB bc these LBs u speak of gotta come from somewhere...unless you feel you can whine about it to the 9ers til they give us one of theirs...

That is one hell of a run on sentence. Good work.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 08:00 PM
The bears are playing him at weakside linebacker...

As I said, my friend, we'll see how he does. I get all the games and wall-to-wall Bears coverage out here.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 08:07 PM
As I said, my friend, we'll see how he does. I get all the games and wall-to-wall Bears coverage out here.

Unless the bears start playing him at mike or Sam, it doesn't matter how he does

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:51 AM
Unless the bears start playing him at mike or Sam, it doesn't matter how he does

If he gets on the field, and is productive, I don't really think it matters that much what position he's playing.