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View Full Version : Cruz's contract talks on 2 yd line (NY Post)



Carter.525
05-15-2013, 08:57 AM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/doorstep_of_deal_nTVtRb9oxvEuQZg121BtUO

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 09:05 AM
Smoked hickory source tends to go with everything, you know.

PBTimmons
05-15-2013, 09:12 AM
Hopefully they aren't employing Brandon Jacobs to punch it in...Field Goal time!

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 09:27 AM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/doorstep_of_deal_nTVtRb9oxvEuQZg121BtUO
I hope its not the defending 2 yard line.

Kruunch
05-15-2013, 09:32 AM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/884/126/138322549_display_image.jpg?1328497279

bigblue58
05-15-2013, 09:53 AM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/doorstep_of_deal_nTVtRb9oxvEuQZg121BtUO


Do us a favor and just let us know when it's across the goal line!
These Cruz contract updates are becoming as annoying as daily Kardashian stories.

TCHOF
05-15-2013, 10:04 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/15/differing-reports-on-state-of-victor-cruz-negotiations/

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 10:08 AM
only 98 yards to go! We seen him go 99 before.

Carter.525
05-15-2013, 10:09 AM
only 98 yards to go! We seen him go 99 before.

haha

Shockeystays08
05-15-2013, 10:11 AM
Do us a favor and just let us know when it's across the goal line!
These Cruz contract updates are becoming as annoying as daily Kardashian stories.

Amen! Just the name Cruz is starting to grate on my nerves. If and when a deal get's done then post something. Speculation has become annoying. It is apparent no one has a clue what is really going on. Maybe they are trying to work that silly Salsa crap out of him .

gumby74
05-15-2013, 10:13 AM
anything more than 7 million and i'll be pretty annoyed.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 10:19 AM
anything more than 7 million and i'll be pretty annoyed.Would like him to stay on the Giants but not for to much money. Lets say he didn't sign and somehow JJ got his chance and made the most of it.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 10:22 AM
If and when a deal get's done then post something.
People enjoy being "first" to regurgitate something they've seen elsewhere on the internet, though. As if they're going to forgo those imaginary internet status points...


anything more than 7 million and i'll be pretty annoyed.
I'd be fine with it. I just want the guy on this team for awhile.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 10:25 AM
This thing is becoming so annoying

gumby74
05-15-2013, 10:29 AM
Would like him to stay on the Giants but not for to much money. Lets say he didn't sign and somehow JJ got his chance and made the most of it.

That's really the thing. I don't think we can completely replace his production but having someone step in and produce adequately is enough. Eli has already shown that he can make the most of a beat up receiving corps. We can use that 7 million saved to use elsewhere. Sign a good guard to boost our oline, or a LBer, or something.

But say if Cruz signs, I have no idea how we're going to swing Nicks without seriously hurting our team.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 10:37 AM
That's really the thing. I don't think we can completely replace his production but having someone step in and produce adequately is enough. Eli has already shown that he can make the most of a beat up receiving corps. We can use that 7 million saved to use elsewhere. Sign a good guard to boost our oline, or a LBer, or something.But say if Cruz signs, I have no idea how we're going to swing Nicks without seriously hurting our team.Agree. They have a lot of money locked up with Eli. He has proven that he can work with unknown WR's. not to say they can just replace Cruz that easy, but if they believe that Eli is a top QB they should worry about protecting him and letting him do his thing. Then work on the defense.

Rudyy
05-15-2013, 10:38 AM
http://www.giants101.com/2013/05/15/victor-cruz-lowers-contract-demands-long-term-deal-with-new-york-giants-nearing-completion/

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 10:55 AM
Personally $5 to $6MM is all we should be paying him.

I can see 4 to 5 years and $25 to 28MM with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. This is what I've been saying all along.
As a number 2 and with our cap situation, its what's right for the team. If not I say sign the tender and take your chances next year in free agency.

gumby74
05-15-2013, 10:55 AM
Personally $5 to $6MM is all we should be paying him.

I can see 4 to 5 years and $25 to 28MM with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. This is what I've been saying all along.
As a number 2 and with our cap situation, its what's right for the team. If not I say sign the tender and take your chances next year in free agency.

+1

FBomb
05-15-2013, 10:59 AM
Just heard on Opening Drive that he has lowered his contract demands. A deal is coming. Ross Tucker said he'd like to punch the anti-Cruz Giants fans in the face!!! Lol

TCHOF
05-15-2013, 11:02 AM
Personally $5 to $6MM is all we should be paying him.

I can see 4 to 5 years and $25 to 28MM with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. This is what I've been saying all along.
As a number 2 and with our cap situation, its what's right for the team. If not I say sign the tender and take your chances next year in free agency.

Didn't Brian Hartline just sign a deal for $6.5M per year? He can't hold Cruz's jock.

Here are some other WR's who make over $6M per year: Robert Meachem, Santonio Holmes, Sidney Rice, Antonio Brown, Pierre Garcon.

It would be idiotic for Cruz to sign a deal for $5-6M per year, as the Giants have reportedly already recognized by offering him $7M per year.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:03 AM
Just heard on Opening Drive that he has lowered his contract demands. A deal is coming. Ross Tucker said he'd like to punch the anti-Cruz Giants fans in the face!!! Lol
If a deal is coming soon I just believe some are going to be surprised with how team friendly it is.
I just don't see $8MM/year at all like some here have been saying.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Didn't Brian Hartline just sign a deal for $6.5M per year? He can't hold Cruz's jock.

Here are some other WR's who make over $6M per year: Robert Meachem, Santonio Holmes, Sidney Rice, Antonio Brown, Pierre Garcon.

It would be idiotic for Cruz to sign a deal for $5-6M per year, as the Giants have reportedly already recognized by offering him $7M per year.
Every team has their own cap situation. The Dolphins are in a much better position cap wise to make those kinds of deals.
I'm sure Cruz thinks the same thing by the way, but he may be realizing that the team is holding all the cards.

And Hartline had a rookie QB and still had over 1000 yards. Cruz had Eli and had about the same. He did obviously have a lot more TD's. But while Cruz is a better player than Hartline. The difference isn't that great.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 11:08 AM
Didn't Brian Hartline just sign a deal for $6.5M per year? He can't hold Cruz's jock.

Here are some other WR's who make over $6M per year: Robert Meachem, Santonio Holmes, Sidney Rice, Antonio Brown, Pierre Garcon.

It would be idiotic for Cruz to sign a deal for $5-6M per year, as the Giants have reportedly already recognized by offering him $7M per year.I agree with this, no way in hell he signs for less than 7, and rightfully so. I wouldn't go over 7.5 for him but 8 wouldn't surprise me. Anything more than 8 is too much.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:10 AM
I agree with this, no way in hell he signs for less than 7, and rightfully so. I wouldn't go over 7.5 for him but 8 wouldn't surprise me. Anything more than 8 is too much.
Where's the cap room coming from.
And if we sign Cruz to that kind of money, that means we will have to pay Nicks near $10MM/year to keep him. That is a HUGE cap hit for us and will hurt us in our effort to improve the team in other ways.

fansince69
05-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Where's the cap room coming from.
And if we sign Cruz to that kind of money, that means we will have to pay Nicks near $10MM/year to keep him. That is a HUGE cap hit for us and will hurt us in our effort to improve the team in other ways.will you please stop using logic...you confuse everyone

Imgrate
05-15-2013, 11:19 AM
We have a lot of cap space after this year.

Dline83
05-15-2013, 11:24 AM
Where's the cap room coming from.
And if we sign Cruz to that kind of money, that means we will have to pay Nicks near $10MM/year to keep him. That is a HUGE cap hit for us and will hurt us in our effort to improve the team in other ways.

I agree that the team friendly version of his contract should look closer to the numbers that you are throwing out, but I believe he will be getting closer to the 7 - 8 million per year range (and hopefully not over that), although it is a possibility that they through in a bunch of incentives and keep the actually yearly cap hit at a slightly reduced rate, which I would be a fan of.

The problem I see with Nicks is that when he is healthy I believe that he does warrant a higher monetary level than Cruz. It would kill me to see a 10 million + per year deal but if he is watching all of these other players get paid the way they are in free agency it just might not be possible to keep him for any less unless he really wants to play for us and is willing to give us a deal.

I think Eli will soon sign a new contract reducing his overall numbers, I also believe that Rolle's cap hit will be the main funding source (once he is gone) for Nicks, that all being said, I still think it is far from a lock that we can retain him.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 11:35 AM
Personally $5 to $6MM is all we should be paying him.

I can see 4 to 5 years and $25 to 28MM with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. This is what I've been saying all along.
As a number 2 and with our cap situation, its what's right for the team. If not I say sign the tender and take your chances next year in free agency.

VICTOR CRUZ

2011: 82 catches - 1536 yards (Giants record) - 9TDs
2012: 86 catches - 1092 yards - 10TDs

Thats 168 catches - 2628 yards - 19TDs the past 2 years and played in all 32 games

Mike Wallace the last 2 years:
136 catches (32 catches less) - 2029 (599 yards less) yards - 16TDs (3TDs less) in 31 games
Contract 5 years $60Million Dollars $30M guarenteed DOLPHINS

Percy Harvin the last 2 years:
149 catches (19 catches less) - 1644 yards (984 yards less) - 9Tds (10 TDs less) in 25 games
Contract 6 years $67Million Dollars $14.5M guarenteed SEAHAWKS

So tell me again why Cruz deserves to be paid only 5-7 million a year? The market price for a WR like Cruz is about 11-12M right now.

You guys act like Cruz is worthless sometimes. He is the best WR we have and a hell of one at that.

If you guys were in Cruz's shoes, are you telling me you wouldnt laugh at a 5 year 35M offer right now? Look at these numbers and compare!

If I was Cruz, I would play out this final year, have a big year, and make double what the Giants are willing to pay next season.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 11:36 AM
Where's the cap room coming from.
And if we sign Cruz to that kind of money, that means we will have to pay Nicks near $10MM/year to keep him. That is a HUGE cap hit for us and will hurt us in our effort to improve the team in other ways.When it's time to sign Nicks I'm pretty sure his injuries will be of consideration. And that's assuming he bounces back, another year like 2012 and he definitely won't be making 10 a year or might not even get resigned.

As for the cap, I could definitely see Rolle getting cut or restructuring after this season and us getting rid of other players like we do every off season.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 11:40 AM
will you please stop using logic...you confuse everyoneRiiight, anyone who thinks Cruz signs for more than 5-6 mill must be an illogical person....

So we offered him 7 already but he's still holding out so he could end up taking 5-6mill....

When the deal is done please come around here.

JesseJames
05-15-2013, 11:40 AM
personally I'm starting to get a little tired of all this Cruz stuff, he said he would never hold out and yet here he is doing just that.....

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 11:42 AM
personally I'm starting to get a little tired of all this Cruz stuff, he said he would never hold out and yet here he is doing just that.....

He isnt holding out.... Its May! If he isnt there in training camp and misses some preseason games, then he is holding out. Oh, and lets not forget some of the greatest Giants have done the same thing.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:43 AM
Just heard on Opening Drive that he has lowered his contract demands. A deal is coming. Ross Tucker said he'd like to punch the anti-Cruz Giants fans in the face!!! LolNever heard of any anti Cruz fans.

Giant303
05-15-2013, 11:46 AM
VICTOR CRUZ

2011: 82 catches - 1536 yards (Giants record) - 9TDs
2012: 86 catches - 1092 yards - 10TDs

Thats 168 catches - 2628 yards - 19TDs the past 2 years and played in all 32 games

Mike Wallace the last 2 years:
136 catches (32 catches less) - 2029 (599 yards less) yards - 16TDs (3TDs less) in 31 games
Contract 5 years $60Million Dollars $30M guarenteed DOLPHINS

Percy Harvin the last 2 years:
149 catches (19 catches less) - 1644 yards (984 yards less) - 9Tds (10 TDs less) in 25 games
Contract 6 years $67Million Dollars $14.5M guarenteed SEAHAWKS

So tell me again why Cruz deserves to be paid only 5-7 million a year? The market price for a WR like Cruz is about 11-12M right now.

You guys act like Cruz is worthless sometimes. He is the best WR we have and a hell of one at that.

If you guys were in Cruz's shoes, are you telling me you wouldnt laugh at a 5 year 35M offer right now? Look at these numbers and compare!

If I was Cruz, I would play out this final year, have a big year, and make double what the Giants are willing to pay next season.

Cute Stats but here's the difference Percy Harvin also returns kicks and punts did you add in those yards and TD's? Mike wallace was the #1 wideout on the steelers facing #1 corners also played with 2 other really good WR's. Both of those contracts are terrible contracts(value-wise) so I'd rather see cruz get that kind of money in buffalo somewhere than for the giants to pay him 13 million a year. In Cruz's 1500 yrds year he was the 3rd WR in the slot the majority of the time with a Healthy(er) Nicks commanding defenses. He's a slot WR..a really really good one but still a slot WR none the less. Look at what that pats did to him in the superbowl 4 catches for like 42 yards? against better teams when he is the 1st option he will get shut down.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:47 AM
VICTOR CRUZ2011: 82 catches - 1536 yards (Giants record) - 9TDs2012: 86 catches - 1092 yards - 10TDsThats 168 catches - 2628 yards - 19TDs the past 2 years and played in all 32 gamesMike Wallace the last 2 years:136 catches (32 catches less) - 2029 (599 yards less) yards - 16TDs (3TDs less) in 31 gamesContract 5 years $60Million Dollars $30M guarenteed DOLPHINSPercy Harvin the last 2 years:149 catches (19 catches less) - 1644 yards (984 yards less) - 9Tds (10 TDs less) in 25 gamesContract 6 years $67Million Dollars $14.5M guarenteed SEAHAWKSSo tell me again why Cruz deserves to be paid only 5-7 million a year? The market price for a WR like Cruz is about 11-12M right now. You guys act like Cruz is worthless sometimes. He is the best WR we have and a hell of one at that.If you guys were in Cruz's shoes, are you telling me you wouldnt laugh at a 5 year 35M offer right now? Look at these numbers and compare!If I was Cruz, I would play out this final year, have a big year, and make double what the Giants are willing to pay next season.Those WR's where also signed to teams that pay a lot less for their QB's, especially Seattle.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:53 AM
Riiight, anyone who thinks Cruz signs for more than 5-6 mill must be an illogical person....

So we offered him 7 already but he's still holding out so he could end up taking 5-6mill....

When the deal is done please come around here.
No one knows what we offered him. All we have are unsubstantiated stories which are probably just speculation just like we're doing.

gumby74
05-15-2013, 11:56 AM
We have a lot of cap space after this year.

I thought it was only Websters salary of any significance that is coming off the books after next year. Everyone else is on their rookie salary. Or maybe tuck??

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:59 AM
We have a lot of cap space after this year.
Right....So then we will have to pay Nicks and JPP. The only reason we could offer Cruz anything decent is because we have cap room next year. Otherwise we would be in a difficult position regarding signing any of our guys coming off rookie contracts.

gumby74
05-15-2013, 12:00 PM
Hopefully we continue to draft well. Otherwise, we're effed.

nycsportzfan
05-15-2013, 12:01 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 12:05 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)
I completely agree.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 12:08 PM
No one knows what we offered him. All we have are unsubstantiated stories which are probably just speculation just like we're doing.http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21939070/report-giants-offered-victor-cruz-7m-plus-annually-

I don't think this guy just randomly got up one morning and made up that number for the heck of it. But for skepticism and disbelief's sake, when Mara himself said Cruz declined a "substantial offer", do you honestly think it was less than 5 mill? That is beyond absurd. And that would have to be what you're implying if you think Cruz has been negotiating this long and not accepting the offers only to sign for 5 mill at the end of it all. It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

NYGabriel
05-15-2013, 12:08 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)

It's called market forces. Top tier wideouts are going for a certain price and so the comparison is easy. If Desean Jackson is worth over 10mil a year it would be a farce to pay Cruz less than 7mil.

Rudyy
05-15-2013, 12:09 PM
I hate when people's emotions get the best of them...

Dline83
05-15-2013, 12:11 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)

The problem is the law of averages, and of course agents. Any agent is going to point to other peoples contracts, that's why you saw Rodgers getting signed to an extension after Flacco, agents use other contracts as a measuring stick for their negotiations. Not saying that I like it, and you are totally correct that the Wallace deal was a bad thing for every other team in the NFL, but it is what it is.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 12:13 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)Sure, look what Romo got after Baltimore overpaid for Flacco, which then set the conditions for the Rodgers deal, unfortunately that's how the market works.

It's not just stupid teams, look what we paid for Canty and Rolle.. That's way worst than paying Cruz 7 a year imo.

TCHOF
05-15-2013, 12:14 PM
I hate how everything is in comparison.. So because the dolphins overpaid for Mike Wallace, the Giants should overpay for Victor Cruz? The Dolphins are a dumb franchise, why should other franchises have to be stupid becuase they are? I would never pay Victor Cruz 7million per yr.. I love the guy, but its silly to pay a guy 7milllion per yr when u got a 100million dollar QB and FA issues down the line coming up(JPP, PRINCE..ETC)

Could also be considered silly to give your franchise QB a $100M deal and then refuse to pay for the weapons he needs . . . .

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 12:14 PM
The problem is the law of averages, and of course agents. Any agent is going to point to other peoples contracts, that's why you saw Rodgers getting signed to an extension after Flacco, agents use other contracts as a measuring stick for their negotiations. Not saying that I like it, and you are totally correct that the Wallace deal was a bad thing for every other team in the NFL, but it is what it is.Agreed 100%.... I think people are confusing us saying that he will get atleast 7million with saying he's worth that much.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 12:16 PM
Sure, look what Romo got after Baltimore overpaid for Flacco, which then set the conditions for the Rodgers deal, how the market works. It's not just stupid teams, look what we paid for Canty and Rolle.. That's way worst than paying Cruz 7 a year imo.Eh, not exactly. Rodgers is the best QB in the game today and was going to get paid. Flacco did a smart thing. He held out signing a contract and won a Super Bowl MVP.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 12:19 PM
Eh, not exactly. Rodgers is the best QB in the game today and was going to get paid. Flacco did a smart thing. He held out signing a contract and won a Super Bowl MVP.I agree that he's the best but the Romo and Flacco deals Ensured that he (being the best) has to get more than those guys. There is no way after the Romo and Flacco deals that Rodgers was going to make less.

Dline83
05-15-2013, 12:20 PM
Eh, not exactly. Rodgers is the best QB in the game today and was going to get paid. Flacco did a smart thing. He held out signing a contract and won a Super Bowl MVP.

So are you saying that Flacco's deal had nothing to do with the amount Rodgers was offered, or what his agent tried to get him?

ebick
05-15-2013, 12:22 PM
Part of problem is the Bobby Bonilla effect. The Mets paid him what at the time was an enormous amount of money. He did not produce what was expected of him. So then you have some other guy who is producing and points to Bonilla's contract and says, "well, if he is getting paid that for his numbers, I should be getting this for my numbers". The problem is that the dollars he got was not for what he produced, but what he was expected to produce.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 12:25 PM
I agree that he's the best but the Romo and Flacco deals Ensured that he (being the best) has to get more than those guys. There is no way after the Romo and Flacco deals that Rodgers was going to make less.Maybe, he was going to be very well compensated. He could have even tried for more.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 12:26 PM
So are you saying that Flacco's deal had nothing to do with the amount Rodgers was offered, or what his agent tried to get him?Winning a Super Bowl is what got Flacco that money. People somehow think that Flacco is not a good QB around here. He won a Championship in just about the same time it took Eli to win his first and has a better post season record.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 12:26 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21939070/report-giants-offered-victor-cruz-7m-plus-annually-

I don't think this guy just randomly got up one morning and made up that number for the heck of it. But for skepticism and disbelief's sake, when Mara himself said Cruz declined a "substantial offer", do you honestly think it was less than 5 mill? That is beyond absurd. And that would have to be what you're implying if you think Cruz has been negotiating this long and not accepting the offers only to sign for 5 mill at the end of it all. It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

And where do you think that report came from? Who do you think is talking? JR? Mr. Mara?....I doubt it very much.

BuffyBlueII
05-15-2013, 12:35 PM
Personally $5 to $6MM is all we should be paying him.I can see 4 to 5 years and $25 to 28MM with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. This is what I've been saying all along.As a number 2 and with our cap situation, its what's right for the team. If not I say sign the tender and take your chances next year in free agency.VDC, I abhor agreeing with you but you are right on this one.The only difference I could see that makes sense is giving Victor 6.5 per, a little bit more than Wes Welker.

Dline83
05-15-2013, 12:40 PM
Winning a Super Bowl is what got Flacco that money. People somehow think that Flacco is not a good QB around here. He won a Championship in just about the same time it took Eli to win his first and has a better post season record.

I think you are misunderstanding me, I am not saying anything about the contract Flacco signed, I am saying that it had a direct bearing on the contract that Rodgers signed.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 12:41 PM
VDC, I abhor agreeing with you but you are right on this one.The only difference I could see that makes sense is giving Victor 6.5 per, a little bit more than Wes Welker.
Yet you do....constantly.

gumby74
05-15-2013, 12:44 PM
People bring up Wallace and Jackson - both of which have been less productive than Cruz. But, what they bring is game changing speed. You know they're going to try and run past you and you game plan by bringing extra people to cover, to try and counter act that. But, they still do it any anyway. That's what makes them special and gets them paid.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 12:44 PM
I think you are misunderstanding me, I am not saying anything about the contract Flacco signed, I am saying that it had a direct bearing on the contract that Rodgers signed.
I agree (I guess) on the Flacco/Rodgers thing. But I don't think the Cruz situation is the same. There was no walking away from those QB's for the teams. We CAN walk away from Cruz. Plus Cruz is a #2 WR and a slot guy to boot. His value is subject to great debate. The fact that another WR signed for an ungodly amount doesn't have the relevance you may think. Each team has its own needs.
The reality is that we are up against the cap and we have to sign our #1 WR plus our best defensive player within the year.

Dline83
05-15-2013, 12:56 PM
I agree (I guess) on the Flacco/Rodgers thing. But I don't think the Cruz situation is the same. There was no walking away from those QB's for the teams. We CAN walk away from Cruz. Plus Cruz is a #2 WR and a slot guy to boot. His value is subject to great debate. The fact that another WR signed for an ungodly amount doesn't have the relevance you may think. Each team has its own needs.
The reality is that we are up against the cap and we have to sign our #1 WR plus our best defensive player within the year.

I never said that the Wallace contract has a direct effect on Cruz, as in he has to get close to the same numbers, but I bet that it will be used as a bargaining chip by his agent as well as the team using the contracts that Welker and Amendola signed as leverage for a lower number. Cruz also doesn't play specifically in the slot, he is lined up all over the field and also displays the ability to stretch the field, which adds more value to him as a player. Cruz also has the most receiving yards in Giants history as well as the second and third most catches in a season, which his agents will also use as bargaining power.

I agree with you that we have the ability to walk away from Cruz, and I think the track record that Manning has with other guys of the same mold (Smith still has the most amount of catches in one year with 107) proves that point, but I do not think that is as much as an option for the front office as we all see it on these boards, especially with Nick's injury history.

Also just for the record, I did originally write my response to Buddy333 because I think he believed I was commenting on Flacco's contract, but I was making the point that it was what was used as measurement for Rodgers deal.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 12:59 PM
I never said that the Wallace contract has a direct effect on Cruz, as in he has to get close to the same numbers, but I bet that it will be used as a bargaining chip by his agent as well as the team using the contracts that Welker and Amendola signed as leverage for a lower number. Cruz also doesn't play specifically in the slot, he is lined up all over the field and also displays the ability to stretch the field, which adds more value to him as a player. Cruz also has the most receiving yards in Giants history as well as the second and third most catches in a season, which his agents will also use as bargaining power.

I agree with you that we have the ability to walk away from Cruz, and I think the track record that Manning has with other guys of the same mold (Smith still has the most amount of catches in one year with 107) proves that point, but I do not think that is as much as an option for the front office as we all see it on these boards, especially with Nick's injury history.

Also just for the record, I did originally write my response to Buddy333 because I think he believed I was commenting on Flacco's contract, but I was making the point that it was what was used as measurement for Rodgers deal.

Well I didn't go back and read where all this came from. I made the assumption that you were saying that other players contracts will have an effect on Cruz's.
If that's your point, I would only say that it may have far less than one might think.

GameTime
05-15-2013, 01:00 PM
its all blah blah blah until he does or doesnt sign

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 01:03 PM
its all blah blah blah until he does or doesnt sign
"Blah blah blah" is what our message board is all about! (Thank God!)

drewz
05-15-2013, 01:08 PM
Saying Cruz isn't worth 7 mill a year is just as insane as saying he's worth over 10 a year

Dline83
05-15-2013, 01:10 PM
Well I didn't go back and read where all this came from. I made the assumption that you were saying that other players contracts will have an effect on Cruz's.
If that's your point, I would only say that it may have far less than one might think.

I think it is without question that other contracts will have a bearing on what Cruz signs, I also think you are correct that every teams needs are different and that plays directly into what will be offered to any player. I do not think that Wallace's contract will directly be used as a measurement for the deal Cruz signs, but I do believe that it will represent the high end of what his agents are asking for, just like I believe the Giants will use the Welker and Amendola deal to their benefit.

If Cruz signs a deal for under 6 million per year, I would be happily surprised.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:10 PM
No one knows what we offered him. All we have are unsubstantiated stories which are probably just speculation just like we're doing.

We do know he was offered more than Welker because Tisch said they did. That puts the original offer in the $7M range. Other than that, it's all speculation.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 01:14 PM
We do know he was offered more than Welker because Tisch said they did. That puts the original offer in the $7M range. Other than that, it's all speculation.I thought that much was already known by everyone on here, apparently not

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 01:15 PM
We do know he was offered more than Welker because Tisch said they did. That puts the original offer in the $7M range. Other than that, it's all speculation.
Not necessarily.
Welker's contract was 2 years and around $12MM. The offer could be 4 or 5 years for $25 to $28M with more guaranteed than Welker got.
It doesn't necessarily mean its a larger per year salary.
And I would submit that Mr. Tisch's comments are the ONLY real information we have. And even that is subject to interpretation.

Kruunch
05-15-2013, 01:15 PM
its all blah blah blah until he does or doesnt sign

Truer words have never been spoken.

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 01:18 PM
And where do you think that report came from? Who do you think is talking? JR? Mr. Mara?....I doubt it very much.I take it you didn't read the latter part of my post.... So that report is a complete confabulation, ok fine.

But what Mara DID say, is that Cruz declined a substantial offer. Are you trying to tell me that substantial offer was less than 5 mill and that Cruz is haggling with them so he could get to 5 mill and then finally accept?

If that's what you think then that's fine, I completely disagree but I just want clarity on what you actually think is going on since we're all speculating here anyways.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:21 PM
I thought that much was already known by everyone on here, apparently not

Convenient memory lapses I think.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:23 PM
Not necessarily.
Welker's contract was 2 years and around $12MM. The offer could be 4 or 5 years for $25 to $28M with more guaranteed than Welker got.
It doesn't necessarily mean its a larger per year salary.
And I would submit that Mr. Tisch's comments are the ONLY real information we have. And even that is subject to interpretation.

Dream on, my friend :cool:

egyptian420
05-15-2013, 01:24 PM
Convenient memory lapses I think.too convenient.... I can't wait till this deal is over so we can go back to the "we should run the no huddle all game" threads

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:26 PM
too convenient.... I can't wait till this deal is over so we can go back to the "we should run the no huddle all game" threads

When the deal is done, wait until you see all of the "who does he think he is" threads directed at both Cruz and Reese.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 01:32 PM
When the deal is done, wait until you see all of the "who does he think he is" threads directed at both Cruz and Reese.
If the deal is done and its too big, I won't blame Cruz at all. I will blame JR, and Mr. Mara.

"I am going to blame some of the people in this room....and that I don't forgive"

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:33 PM
If the deal is done and its too big, I won't blame Cruz at all. I will blame JR, and Mr. Mara.

"I am going to blame some of the people in this room....and that I don't forgive"

I am going to have to change usernames?

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 01:49 PM
I am going to have to change usernames?
Not you......the front office.
Unless they listen to you.

BuffyBlueII
05-15-2013, 01:54 PM
Yet you do....constantly.I will admit that on this thread, I am agreeing with you on basically all your points, particularly that if Victor does get overpaid we shouldn't blame him, he should take what he coul get and that the fault would lie wit JR.I may have been mistake MS. It appear you are not the Vile Despicaple Creature I thought you were.

Redeyejedi
05-15-2013, 02:06 PM
Cute Stats but here's the difference Percy Harvin also returns kicks and punts did you add in those yards and TD's? Mike wallace was the #1 wideout on the steelers facing #1 corners also played with 2 other really good WR's. Both of those contracts are terrible contracts(value-wise) so I'd rather see cruz get that kind of money in buffalo somewhere than for the giants to pay him 13 million a year. In Cruz's 1500 yrds year he was the 3rd WR in the slot the majority of the time with a Healthy(er) Nicks commanding defenses. He's a slot WR..a really really good one but still a slot WR none the less. Look at what that pats did to him in the superbowl 4 catches for like 42 yards? against better teams when he is the 1st option he will get shut down.Pery Harvins contract has basically no guaranteed money

Carter.525
05-15-2013, 02:13 PM
Sources tell the New York Daily News that restricted free agent Victor Cruz has lowered his contract demands.
At one point, Cruz was asking for $10-11 million per season. Now he's reportedly seeking "much closer" to the $8 million annually the Giants are offering. It's a reminder that slot receivers just don't have the same clout as true No. 1 wideouts. The Daily News believes a deal will "probably" be done in time for Cruz to report to the full-team minicamp that begins on June 11. It's a great sign for both Cruz and Eli Manning's 2013 fantasy value.

Source: New York Daily News

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:14 PM
I will admit that on this thread, I am agreeing with you on basically all your points, particularly that if Victor does get overpaid we shouldn't blame him, he should take what he coul get and that the fault would lie wit JR.I may have been mistake MS. It appear you are not the Vile Despicaple Creature I thought you were.
Yes I am.
And you agree with me on almost everything.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:16 PM
Source: New York Daily News
Where do they get their information? It could only come from one of the 2 sides. I doubt very seriously that the Cruz camp is saying they were asking that much and I very seriously doubt the FO is talking at all.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:18 PM
Not you......the front office.
Unless they listen to you.

They have been listening to me, hence the $8M, 5 year, $20M guarantee contract about to be signed.

Carter.525
05-15-2013, 02:23 PM
Where do they get their information? It could only come from one of the 2 sides. I doubt very seriously that the Cruz camp is saying they were asking that much and I very seriously doubt the FO is talking at all.

rotoworld

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:24 PM
They have been listening to me, hence the $8M, 5 year, $20M guarantee contract about to be signed.
$20MM guaranteed would be ridiculous squared.
Here's my view in a nutshell.
I think Cruz is a very good player. I think he's very productive. So I think he deserved a nice contract of 4 or 5 years of around $25 to $28MM with maybe $11 to $13MM guaranteed. especially given that he's a RFA who got no offers and he's our #2 WR.

So I have for months predicted the contract I just mentioned. IF we offer him the kind of contract that some here are suggesting, I think it would be crazy. And our front office isn't crazy.
So out of respect for Mr. Mara and Jerry Reese, I predict hey won't do something that is nuttty.

$20MM guaranteed would make it near impossible for us to sign Nicks AND still have Randle as an option for a #2. To sign Cruz for this much, we would jeopardize our future at WR.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:25 PM
Where do they get their information? It could only come from one of the 2 sides. I doubt very seriously that the Cruz camp is saying they were asking that much and I very seriously doubt the FO is talking at all.


The janitor cleaning the conference room

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:25 PM
rotoworld
The only folks who would know are those on the Cruz team and those in our FO. And I doubt any of them is talking.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:26 PM
$20MM guaranteed would be ridiculous squared.
Here's my view in a nutshell.
I think Cruz is a very good player. I think he's very productive. So I think he deserved a nice contract of 4 or 5 years of around $25 to $28MM with maybe $11 to $13MM guaranteed. especially given that he's a RFA who got no offers and he's our #2 WR.

So I have for months predicted the contract I just mentioned. IF we offer him the kind of contract that some here are suggesting, I think it would be crazy. And our front office isn't crazy.
So out of respect for Mr. Mara and Jerry Reese, I predict hey won't do something that is nuttty.

$20MM guaranteed would make it near impossible for us to sign Nicks AND still have Randle as an option for a #2. To sign Cruz for this much, we would jeopardize our future at WR.

We will have to see the details and then we can stop guessing.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:33 PM
We will have to see the details and then we can stop guessing.
I hope I'm right and you're wrong. My way is better for the team.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:39 PM
I hope I'm right and you're wrong. My way is better for the team.

You would think that

BuffyBlueII
05-15-2013, 02:44 PM
Yes I am.And you agree with me on almost everything.Well, maybe not vile. lol...............

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:47 PM
I will admit that on this thread, I am agreeing with you on basically all your points, particularly that if Victor does get overpaid we shouldn't blame him, he should take what he coul get and that the fault would lie wit JR.I may have been mistake MS. It appear you are not the Vile Despicaple Creature I thought you were.

Don't speak too soon :cool:

NYGabriel
05-15-2013, 03:15 PM
I hope I'm right and you're wrong. My way is better for the team.

There's no chance of you being right. Your way is a derisory offer to Cruz that would probably have him and his agent in fits of laughter.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 03:41 PM
Cute Stats.

Ok, you are one of those "stats dont matter guys" when it doesnt go in your favor. I see. POint is, he has out performed those 2 by a bunch the last 2 years. Oh but Percy can return kicks? Is that why they are giving him $11M a year? Guess what, I bet they dont use him as much returning kicks since he was paid so much. dont want your #1 WR to get hurt!

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 03:46 PM
Ok, you are one of those "stats dont matter guys" when it doesnt go in your favor. I see. POint is, he has out performed those 2 by a bunch the last 2 years. Oh but Percy can return kicks? Is that why they are giving him $11M a year? Guess what, I bet they dont use him as much returning kicks since he was paid so much. dont want your #1 WR to get hurt!Who did Harvin have throwing to him?

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 03:48 PM
Ok, you are one of those "stats dont matter guys" when it doesnt go in your favor. I see. POint is, he has out performed those 2 by a bunch the last 2 years. Oh but Percy can return kicks? Is that why they are giving him $11M a year? Guess what, I bet they dont use him as much returning kicks since he was paid so much. dont want your #1 WR to get hurt!
Harvin will be THE guy in Seattle. Cruz is our #2.
Cruz is productive but he's a slot guy. Doesn't have the dynamic skill level that Harvin has.
But the real difference is the condition and the needs of the teams involved. Seattle was desperate for a player like Harvin. PLUS they had a lot of cap room.
We have better WR's (even without Cruz) and we are up against the cap. Look....I'm sure you are all right and Cruz is going to get a huge payday (I guess) but I think its a huge mistake on our part.
We could have him sign the tender and then franchise him for the 2 years after that. THAT would be less than $8MM/year and we could cut him anytime.

It just doesn't make sense.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 03:49 PM
Who did Harvin have throwing to him?

I dont get how that is relevant... Cruz has proved over and over he is a play maker on any pass, bad or good. He has a great ability to go up and get jump balls, something Percy can not. Personally, I think Cruz would be a great WR with any QB.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 03:52 PM
Harvin will be THE guy in Seattle. Cruz is our #2.
Cruz is productive but he's a slot guy. Doesn't have the dynamic skill level that Harvin has.
But the real difference is the condition and the needs of the teams involved. Seattle was desperate for a player like Harvin. PLUS they had a lot of cap room.
We have better WR's (even without Cruz) and we are up against the cap. Look....I'm sure you are all right and Cruz is going to get a huge payday (I guess) but I think its a huge mistake on our part.
We could have him sign the tender and then franchise him for the 2 years after that. THAT would be less than $8MM/year and we could cut him anytime.

It just doesn't make sense.

I dont agree. Percy doesnt have the WR skills that Cruz has, he has more explosion and speed. He doesnt possess the ability that Cruz does once the ball is in the air. And Cruz was our #1 last year, Nicks was 50% almost the entire year. I agree we dont need to over pay for the man, but losing Cruz would have a devistating impact on our offense IMO. You cant just plug in Jerrell Jernigan and say everything will be ok. Although, Barden and Hixon stepped in nicely for Nicks last year.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 03:54 PM
I dont get how that is relevant... Cruz has proved over and over he is a play maker on any pass, bad or good. He has a great ability to go up and get jump balls, something Percy can not. Personally, I think Cruz would be a great WR with any QB.Cruz has had a two time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him and even though Eli had a down year he is much better than Ponder. Harvin can do a lot more than most WR's in the NFL.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 03:59 PM
I dont agree. Percy doesnt have the WR skills that Cruz has, he has more explosion and speed. He doesnt possess the ability that Cruz does once the ball is in the air. And Cruz was our #1 last year, Nicks was 50% almost the entire year. I agree we dont need to over pay for the man, but losing Cruz would have a devistating impact on our offense IMO. You cant just plug in Jerrell Jernigan and say everything will be ok. Although, Barden and Hixon stepped in nicely for Nicks last year.
That's fine.
The real issue is the teams that they play for and the needs they have. We can live without Cruz. We have Nicks and an up and coming Randle. Our offense will work regardless. Plus a big contract for Cruz will make it much tougher to sign Nicks and JPP next season. Plus, WE HAVE CRUZ THIS SEASON NO MATTER WHAT. And for only the tender amount.
Every action has a reaction. There are always unintended consequences.
I'm hoping our FO sees that.
I want to keep Cruz, but for the price that helps our team. Not for one that cripples our ability to improve.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 04:01 PM
That's fine.The real issue is the teams that they play for and the needs they have. We can live without Cruz. We have Nicks and an up and coming Randle. Our offense will work regardless. Plus a big contract for Cruz will make it much tougher to sign Nicks and JPP next season. Plus, WE HAVE CRUZ THIS SEASON NO MATTER WHAT. And for only the tender amount.Every action has a reaction. There are always unintended consequences.I'm hoping our FO sees that.I want to keep Cruz, but for the price that helps our team. Not for one that cripples our ability to improve.Said it before. The difference between the Giants and the teams that signed those WR's to those contracts have QB's playing on their rookie contract.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 04:02 PM
Said it before. The difference between the Giants and the teams that signed those WR's to those contracts have QB's playing on their rookie contract.
Another good point.
Each team has its own needs and its own unique situations. Personnel-wise and cap-wise.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 04:34 PM
Cruz has had a two time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him and even though Eli had a down year he is much better than Ponder. Harvin can do a lot more than most WR's in the NFL.

Ok? I get Eli is better then Ponder. I think that is obvious. But I also think Cruz is better then Percy, who just got a deal for about 11M a year averaged out. It is just how the market is. If you were a gas station selling gas for $2 less a gallon, you would look around and notice this, and then raise your gas prices like $1.50. Thats just how it is. Market value. Do I think anyone playing sports should get more then $1M to play a sport they love, HELL NO. But they do. We should pay our troops more then we pay football players to play a game (lets not get into that comment though).

All Im saying is Cruz's talents and production requires him top WR money in the league, just like Eli's did when he got his deal. We dont make it to the SB without Cruz in 2011. So saying Eli is a 2x Superbowl Champ throwing him the ball is off. Without Eli or without Cruz, I can almost guarentee we dont win the SB.

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 04:37 PM
Ok? I get Eli is better then Ponder. I think that is obvious. But I also think Cruz is better then Percy, who just got a deal for about 11M a year averaged out. It is just how the market is. If you were a gas station selling gas for $2 less a gallon, you would look around and notice this, and then raise your gas prices like $1.50. Thats just how it is. Market value. Do I think anyone playing sports should get more then $1M to play a sport they love, HELL NO. But they do. We should pay our troops more then we pay football players to play a game (lets not get into that comment though).

All Im saying is Cruz's talents and production requires him top WR money in the league, just like Eli's did when he got his deal. We dont make it to the SB without Cruz in 2011. So saying Eli is a 2x Superbowl Champ throwing him the ball is off. Without Eli or without Cruz, I can almost guarentee we dont win the SB.


I would gladly take a pay raise being in the military, get me above 100k and I'd be happy haha

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 04:41 PM
Ok? I get Eli is better then Ponder. I think that is obvious. But I also think Cruz is better then Percy, who just got a deal for about 11M a year averaged out. It is just how the market is. If you were a gas station selling gas for $2 less a gallon, you would look around and notice this, and then raise your gas prices like $1.50. Thats just how it is. Market value. Do I think anyone playing sports should get more then $1M to play a sport they love, HELL NO. But they do. We should pay our troops more then we pay football players to play a game (lets not get into that comment though).

All Im saying is Cruz's talents and production requires him top WR money in the league, just like Eli's did when he got his deal. We dont make it to the SB without Cruz in 2011. So saying Eli is a 2x Superbowl Champ throwing him the ball is off. Without Eli or without Cruz, I can almost guarentee we dont win the SB.

I love Cruz but he is NOT deserving of top WR money.
He isn't even our top WR. He is a very good and very productive player. But he ain't a top 10 WR.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 04:50 PM
I love Cruz but he is NOT deserving of top WR money.
He isn't even our top WR. He is a very good and very productive player. But he ain't a top 10 WR.

So you don't define top WR as top producing WR? Cruz has had the most receiving yards in one season (2011) and consecutive seasons for the Giants all time. How do you define it? Year after year, I feel like Nicks has nagging injuries that hamper his ability to be our #1 WR and worth the contract he can probably get.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 04:58 PM
So you don't define top WR as top producing WR? Cruz has had the most receiving yards in one season (2011) and consecutive seasons for the Giants all time. How do you define it? Year after year, I feel like Nicks has nagging injuries that hamper his ability to be our #1 WR and worth the contract he can probably get.

If Nicks can't put in a full 2013 season with Nicks-like numbers, he's going to have his own contract issues with Reese. It's one thing to be identified as the # 1 receiver, but at some point you have to put up #1 numbers. Nicks has all the skill sets, but his numbers need to be significantly improved in 2013.

TheAnalyst
05-15-2013, 05:01 PM
If Nicks can't put in a full 2013 season with Nicks-like numbers, he's going to have his own contract issues with Reese. It's one thing to be identified as the # 1 receiver, but at some point you have to put up #1 numbers. Nicks has all the skill sets, but his numbers need to be significantly improved in 2013.

Agreed 100%.

But for the past 2 years, Cruz has been the better WR.

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 05:04 PM
Agreed 100%.

But for the past 2 years, Cruz has been the better WR.

Yup, over the past two years not too many WR's have been better than Cruz...

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 05:06 PM
Agreed 100%.

But for the past 2 years, Cruz has been the better WR.

He has put up the better numbers for a fact. But it seems that's not the same as being the best receiver. Our best scenario is to have both of them here with Eli for a few more years because I believe they can be the best tandem in the NFL.

myles2424
05-15-2013, 05:07 PM
Do us a favor and just let us know when it's across the goal line!
These Cruz contract updates are becoming as annoying as daily Kardashian stories.
I actually enjoy watching the kardashians with the volume down...

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 05:22 PM
So you don't define top WR as top producing WR? Cruz has had the most receiving yards in one season (2011) and consecutive seasons for the Giants all time. How do you define it? Year after year, I feel like Nicks has nagging injuries that hamper his ability to be our #1 WR and worth the contract he can probably get.
Our top WR was hurt for part of the season.
I would challenge any Giants fan to say that Cruz is our top WR and Nicks isn't.
Nicks is a top 5 WR in the NFL. He just had that foot injury that he came back too soon from last season.

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 05:24 PM
Our top WR was hurt for part of the season.
I would challenge any Giants fan to say that Cruz is our top WR and Nicks isn't.
Nicks is a top 5 WR in the NFL. He just had that foot injury that he came back too soon from last season.

I think Nicks is our top WR, Cruz is 2nd. That said, Cruz has put up better numbers partially because Nicks has been hurt. Nicks def needs to put up better numbers this year if he wants to get paid!

JesseJames
05-15-2013, 05:44 PM
He isnt holding out.... Its May! If he isnt there in training camp and misses some preseason games, then he is holding out. Oh, and lets not forget some of the greatest Giants have done the same thing.if he's not working with the team he's holding out plain and simple, you can call it whatever you want but what I see is staying out of team participation due to contract problems. If he stays away from team workouts as long as training camp and pre season it will take him some time to get back into game condition, he said he wouldn't do this and he is and thats my point here...

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 05:46 PM
if he's not working with the team he's holding out plain and simple, you can call it whatever you want but what I see is staying out of team participation due to contract problems. If he stays away from team workouts as long as training camp and pre season it will take him some time to get back into game condition, he said he wouldn't do this and he is and thats my point here...

You can't participate with the team if your not under contract right?

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 05:58 PM
You can't participate with the team if your not under contract right?

You can't unless you sign an injury waiver and that would be a foolish thing to do.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 05:59 PM
if he's not working with the team he's holding out plain and simple, you can call it whatever you want but what I see is staying out of team participation due to contract problems. If he stays away from team workouts as long as training camp and pre season it will take him some time to get back into game condition, he said he wouldn't do this and he is and thats my point here...

You can't "hold out" of voluntary OTA's. I am pretty sure other players aren't participating as well.

FishinTheSalt
05-15-2013, 06:23 PM
You can't "hold out" of voluntary OTA's. I am pretty sure other players aren't participating as well.

A la plax and Shockey working out in Florida. Something I never was fond of.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 06:26 PM
A la plax and Shockey working out in Florida. Something I never was fond of.

But some players who don't live locally, prefer to train closer to their homes until they have to report. Those two were usually absent.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 06:27 PM
Our top WR was hurt for part of the season.
I would challenge any Giants fan to say that Cruz is our top WR and Nicks isn't.
Nicks is a top 5 WR in the NFL. He just had that foot injury that he came back too soon from last season.

That's true, but for the two years Cruz has been playing (2011 and 2012), he has been our most productive receiver.

TheBookOfEli
05-15-2013, 06:32 PM
The Salsa king needs to sign already! STOP THE BULLCRAP!

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 06:33 PM
The Salsa king needs to sign already! STOP THE BULLCRAP!

It's coming, and it could be the biggest decisoin he may ever make. I think it will get done this week or early next week.

lamas
05-15-2013, 06:47 PM
That's fine.
The real issue is the teams that they play for and the needs they have. We can live without Cruz. We have Nicks and an up and coming Randle. Our offense will work regardless. Plus a big contract for Cruz will make it much tougher to sign Nicks and JPP next season. Plus, WE HAVE CRUZ THIS SEASON NO MATTER WHAT. And for only the tender amount.
Every action has a reaction. There are always unintended consequences.
I'm hoping our FO sees that.
I want to keep Cruz, but for the price that helps our team. Not for one that cripples our ability to improve.

MS, First, I don't think Cruz is worth a huge contract, but I'm not going to say where that line is. Obviously the less we pay Cruz, the better it is for the team, but do you really think that $1.5M difference between what you deem an acceptable salary ($6.5M) vs. unacceptable ($8M) is really going to "cripple our ability to improve"? Nicks and JPP are going to be expensive regardless of what Cruz signs for. We, as fans, should prepare ourselves of the possibility that we won't be able to afford one or both of them.

Lets now look at some unintended consequences of your crazy idea of having Cruz sign his tender and then franchise him for the next two years...


Cruz is pissed because he's robbed of his deserved long term contract (if not with us then with another team) and is constantly aware that he can be cut at any time. Hold out?
The organization looses some of it's "first class" status by pulling crap moves like this.
The players see it and say "hey, this could happen to me too" and doubt the honor of the front office.
The front office can't be creative with Cruz's cap hit resulting in less money in years when we need it to sign Nicks and JPP.

One other thing...and fans probably don't see this as additional value, but the front office does: Cruz is an enormously popular player who sells lots of merchandise and puts butts in seats. With him gone, they lose out on big bucks.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 07:08 PM
People somehow think that Flacco is not a good QB around here. He won a Championship in just about the same time it took Eli to win his first and has a better post season record.
Indeed. Flacco has tracked an almost identical path through his career so far.

FishinTheSalt
05-15-2013, 07:35 PM
But some players who don't live locally, prefer to train closer to their homes until they have to report. Those two were usually absent.

That was my point, they are voluntary. Many posters went bizerk about them not being here for voluntary workouts. I'm sure cruz isn't sitting on his hands in his living room 24 hours a day. As long as he shows up for mandatory workouts in shape, I really don't have a problem.

jomo
05-15-2013, 07:52 PM
That was my point, they are voluntary. Many posters went bizerk about them not being here for voluntary workouts. I'm sure cruz isn't sitting on his hands in his living room 24 hours a day. As long as he shows up for mandatory workouts in shape, I really don't have a problem.Cruz is a completely different situation. He is trying to lock down a new contract. Shockey stunted the growth of a young QB and the developing offense for his own selfish interests. His career went nowhere because of that attitude. He could have, should have been a HOF TE but he's got nothing to show for his time in the NFL other than $$. Consider him a mercenary IMO.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 07:56 PM
His career went nowhere because of that attitude. He could have, should have been a HOF TE but he's got nothing to show for his time in the NFL other than $$.
He won a Super Bowl with New Orleans.

FishinTheSalt
05-15-2013, 08:18 PM
Cruz is a completely different situation. He is trying to lock down a new contract. Shockey stunted the growth of a young QB and the developing offense for his own selfish interests. His career went nowhere because of that attitude. He could have, should have been a HOF TE but he's got nothing to show for his time in the NFL other than $$. Consider him a mercenary IMO.

Agreed, they are completely different. My point was they were allowed to miss voluntary workouts to work out elsewhere (referring to earlier posts). Whether TC, the team, or the fans liked it is irrelavent. Cruz isn't 'sitting out' until he misses something mandatory is all I was saying.

FishinTheSalt
05-15-2013, 08:20 PM
He won a Super Bowl with New Orleans.

He may have won if 2 if he stayed here and shut his mouth.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:22 PM
Agreed, they are completely different. My point was they were allowed to miss voluntary workouts to work out elsewhere (referring to earlier posts). Whether TC, the team, or the fans liked it is irrelavent. Cruz isn't 'sitting out' until he misses something mandatory is all I was saying.

It think Condon is squeezing the last drop out of the orange and all of this angst will be history pretty soon.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 08:23 PM
He may have won if 2 if he stayed here and shut his mouth.
He was a part of the team that won XLII. He has two rings to his name.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:24 PM
He was a part of the team that won XLII. He has two rings to his name.

I wonder if he ever picked up his first ring?

Diamondring
05-15-2013, 08:27 PM
Posters forgot that Nicks was a 1,000 yard receiver for two years in a row and could have had a third one if somebody didn't purposely stepped on his foot or ankle.

Diamondring
05-15-2013, 08:29 PM
That's true, but for the two years Cruz has been playing (2011 and 2012), he has been our most productive receiver.But you forgot that when Cruz played his first full game, Nicks was a 1,000 yard receiver.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:29 PM
Posters forgot that Nicks was a 1,000 yard receiver for two years in a row and could have had a third one if somebody didn't purposely stepped on his foot or ankle.

Nobody is forgetting what Nicks brings to the team. As for the third year, we'll never know since it didn't happen. But 2013 is a new year and it's never to late to catch up.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:30 PM
But you forgot that when Cruz played his first full game, Nicks was a 1,000 yard receiver.

No one is ragging on Nicks. He is a great receiver, he's had injury issues his whole career that have no doubt caused his performance to fluctuate.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 08:31 PM
I wonder if he ever picked up his first ring?
With cooking tongs whilst wearing gloves, probably.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:32 PM
With cooking tongs whilst wearing gloves, probably.

I defended Shockey right up until he exploded on Reese. He made some very questionable decisions before he left.

theGateKeeper
05-15-2013, 08:33 PM
He came to the Giants in 2010............

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:34 PM
He came to the Giants in 2010............

True, but we are talking about Shockey at the moment.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 08:35 PM
I defended Shockey right up until he exploded on Reese. He made some very questionable decisions before he left.
Yeah, I remained a fan of his up until that. It's a shame his ego got the better of him. He was a great player.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 08:35 PM
Yeah, I remained a fan of his up until that. It's a shame his ego got the better of him. He was a great player.

Ego and immaturity

FishinTheSalt
05-15-2013, 08:39 PM
He was a part of the team that won XLII. He has two rings to his name.

Bazinga! I forgot!

bigjeep
05-15-2013, 09:01 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/doorstep_of_deal_nTVtRb9oxvEuQZg121BtUO

Cruz's contract talks on 2 yd line and its fourth down!

giantsforce
05-15-2013, 09:26 PM
Cruz's contract talks on 2 yd line and its fourth down!Hopefully Reese will not pull a Killdrive and call a draw up the middle!

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 11:02 PM
MS, First, I don't think Cruz is worth a huge contract, but I'm not going to say where that line is. Obviously the less we pay Cruz, the better it is for the team, but do you really think that $1.5M difference between what you deem an acceptable salary ($6.5M) vs. unacceptable ($8M) is really going to "cripple our ability to improve"? Nicks and JPP are going to be expensive regardless of what Cruz signs for. We, as fans, should prepare ourselves of the possibility that we won't be able to afford one or both of them.

Lets now look at some unintended consequences of your crazy idea of having Cruz sign his tender and then franchise him for the next two years...


Cruz is pissed because he's robbed of his deserved long term contract (if not with us then with another team) and is constantly aware that he can be cut at any time. Hold out?
The organization looses some of it's "first class" status by pulling crap moves like this.
The players see it and say "hey, this could happen to me too" and doubt the honor of the front office.
The front office can't be creative with Cruz's cap hit resulting in less money in years when we need it to sign Nicks and JPP.

One other thing...and fans probably don't see this as additional value, but the front office does: Cruz is an enormously popular player who sells lots of merchandise and puts butts in seats. With him gone, they lose out on big bucks.

I completely see your points but you have to understand that the team is holding all the cards. The team has all the leverage.
I do NOT want to see the scenario I described but it is an option that Cruz has to understand. That's why the team has the advantage.
I would hate to see our team have to accept a huge contract with two other players ( Nicks and JPP) looking for big deals in the coming season.
Those two guys become automatically harder to sign if we pay Cruz the kind of money some are talking about. And that IS a big deal.

nycsportzfan
05-15-2013, 11:23 PM
People talk about Mike Wallace's contract, but the guy had 2big yrs and then a down season last yr.. Cruz has had 2 big yrs as well.. 2yrs isn't much, and Wallace did very little without Big Ben last yr, and Big Ben has Antonio Brown as well, which shows alot of it is giving these wideouts a legit chance with a good throwing QB, like ELI or Ben..

I'd wanna see another big yr before i got nuts with a contract for cruz, and I absoulutley love the guys, more then most probably, as I knew about em at UMASS... It dosen't change the fact some of these contracts don't make sense and its why these guys end up not living up to em so often..

5.5Mil per season would be what I think is fair..

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 02:42 AM
People talk about Mike Wallace's contract, but the guy had 2big yrs and then a down season last yr.. Cruz has had 2 big yrs as well.. 2yrs isn't much, and Wallace did very little without Big Ben last yr, and Big Ben has Antonio Brown as well, which shows alot of it is giving these wideouts a legit chance with a good throwing QB, like ELI or Ben.. I'd wanna see another big yr before i got nuts with a contract for cruz, and I absoulutley love the guys, more then most probably, as I knew about em at UMASS... It dosen't change the fact some of these contracts don't make sense and its why these guys end up not living up to em so often.. 5.5Mil per season would be what I think is fair.. But he has been offered $7M at least which was reportedly bumped to $8M so the team values him at that level and there being "no leverage" for Cruz negates the dollar amount being forced upon the team as has been suggested.

G-Men Surg.
05-16-2013, 02:49 AM
Ha when I saw the title of the thread my first thought was 2 yrd line FROM OUR OWN SIDE of the field, lol.
Seriously I truly think its only a matter of time for this " family feud " contract negotiation finally coming to an end.

jomo
05-16-2013, 02:59 AM
Are we on the 1 yard line yet?

bearbryant
05-16-2013, 03:00 AM
I think the brain trust will do the best thing for the NY Giants, period. Yes, Cruz is super, so isn't JPP, Nicks. Don't you think another one or two of our UDFA will be the next VC who will help play this scene out all over again. It's the nature of the NFL. Personally, I think he's shown his value to be around the 6 to 7 MM/ yr. range. Now, if he comes back and has a killer year, maybe his stock rises. Last year was hardly a killer year... for anyone including VC. So, lets get the tender signed or not or sign a deal or not. Camp is right around the corner. Go Giants!

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 07:30 AM
Ha when I saw the title of the thread my first thought was 2 yrd line FROM OUR OWN SIDE of the field, lol.
Seriously I truly think its only a matter of time for this " family feud " contract negotiation finally coming to an end.

Except the only feud is taking place right here :rolleyes:

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 07:31 AM
Are we on the 1 yard line yet?

I really don't like being in the red zone at all.

Carter.525
05-16-2013, 07:52 AM
Are we on the 1 yard line yet?

Yes, time for Eli over the top..

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 08:53 AM
Yes, time for Eli over the top..

SLIDE, Eli, S L I D E

TheAnalyst
05-16-2013, 09:32 AM
He has put up the better numbers for a fact. But it seems that's not the same as being the best receiver. Our best scenario is to have both of them here with Eli for a few more years because I believe they can be the best tandem in the NFL.

I just dont get that statement people make. You aren't the only one who believes that RF. IF Nicks was healthy, I'd have him as our #1, but he cant be counted on as being healthy as he always has nagging injuries. I saw in the 2011 playoffs how great Nicks could be if he was healthy. Both WRs healthy, yes, Nicks would be a better WR. But when do you look at the fact Nicks CAN NOT stay healthy? Cruz keeps putting up better stats, bigger plays and scoring bigger TDs. At some point you have to say, Cruz is the better WR, like it or not. Injuries do that to many great players.

Kruunch
05-16-2013, 09:40 AM
I really don't like being in the red zone at all.

Green zone.

Both Coughlin and Cruz are calling it that now.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 09:40 AM
I just dont get that statement people make. You aren't the only one who believes that RF. IF Nicks was healthy, I'd have him as our #1, but he cant be counted on as being healthy as he always has nagging injuries. I saw in the 2011 playoffs how great Nicks could be if he was healthy. Both WRs healthy, yes, Nicks would be a better WR. But when do you look at the fact Nicks CAN NOT stay healthy? Cruz keeps putting up better stats, bigger plays and scoring bigger TDs. At some point you have to say, Cruz is the better WR, like it or not. Injuries do that to many great players.
You just can't consider a slot guy as your #1 WR. He's in the slot for a reason. Real value as a WR comes from being able to beat press coverage. Cruz is a very good player but his value comes in being put in the right situation. A guy like Nicks is just a great WR in any system. Yes he was hurt last season. But that was last season.
Does Cruz have great value to us? Yes. Is he worth $8MM/year and $20+MM guaranteed?.....No. Plus the consequences to our position with guys like Nicks and JPP would create a big problem for our team down the road. Its not just about the one guy.

gumby74
05-16-2013, 09:51 AM
Green zone.

Both Coughlin and Cruz are calling it that now. Green zone, red zone. They all end up being field goals anyway.

gumby74
05-16-2013, 09:53 AM
Yeah, I remained a fan of his up until that. It's a shame his ego got the better of him. He was a great player. Head case or not, I'm still a fan of his and I still wear his Jersey.

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 10:39 AM
Head case or not, I'm still a fan of his and I still wear his Jersey.

Nice. I don't dislike him, I just didn't like that he was no longer on the team. Tiki annoyed me more.

TheAnalyst
05-16-2013, 10:42 AM
You just can't consider a slot guy as your #1 WR. He's in the slot for a reason. Real value as a WR comes from being able to beat press coverage. Cruz is a very good player but his value comes in being put in the right situation. A guy like Nicks is just a great WR in any system. Yes he was hurt last season. But that was last season.
Does Cruz have great value to us? Yes. Is he worth $8MM/year and $20+MM guaranteed?.....No. Plus the consequences to our position with guys like Nicks and JPP would create a big problem for our team down the road. Its not just about the one guy.

Eh, It is just about one guy, Eli. his #'s are handicapping the team really. But that is besides the point. You need a franchise QB more then a franchise WR. Nicks is going to get paid less then Cruz if he has another year like the last and Cruz pulls a big year again. I think a lot of people just think Nicks should get more because he was a 1st round pick and Cruz was an UDFA. Cruz is every bit as important to Eli as Nicks is, maybe even more. You saw what Barden and Hixon did in Nicks place last year. Barden, a player who most ehre think is a joke absolutely dominated and caught everything thrown his way.

Cruz definitely didnt do as well as he did in 2011 though. He had more drops and was shut down in a few games. But the fact remains, he is a game changer. He may be the best slot machine in the NFL and Eli's comfort blanket.

Rudyy
05-16-2013, 10:47 AM
Eh, It is just about one guy, Eli. his #'s are handicapping the team really. But that is besides the point. You need a franchise QB more then a franchise WR. Nicks is going to get paid less then Cruz if he has another year like the last and Cruz pulls a big year again. I think a lot of people just think Nicks should get more because he was a 1st round pick and Cruz was an UDFA. Cruz is every bit as important to Eli as Nicks is, maybe even more. You saw what Barden and Hixon did in Nicks place last year. Barden, a player who most ehre think is a joke absolutely dominated and caught everything thrown his way.

Cruz definitely didnt do as well as he did in 2011 though. He had more drops and was shut down in a few games. But the fact remains, he is a game changer. He may be the best slot machine in the NFL and Eli's comfort blanket.1. No, people think Nicks should get more because he brings more to the table.

2. He's good, but he's not more important to Eli than Nicks is. Hence why our offense was a complete disaster last year.

3. LOL Barden did not "dominate" anything. He went up against a lousy Panthers defense, and all of a sudden he dominated. And um..how about the other games? I'll wait. Hixon didn't "dominate" either. He was just a solid #3 receiver.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:56 AM
Eh, It is just about one guy, Eli. his #'s are handicapping the team really. But that is besides the point. You need a franchise QB more then a franchise WR. Nicks is going to get paid less then Cruz if he has another year like the last and Cruz pulls a big year again. I think a lot of people just think Nicks should get more because he was a 1st round pick and Cruz was an UDFA. Cruz is every bit as important to Eli as Nicks is, maybe even more. You saw what Barden and Hixon did in Nicks place last year. Barden, a player who most ehre think is a joke absolutely dominated and caught everything thro

Cruz definitely didnt do as well as he did in 2011 though. He had more drops and was shut down in a few games. But the fact remains, he is a game changer. He may be the best slot machine in the NFL and Eli's comfort blanket.
Cruz is very good......To the tune of 4 to 5 years, $25 to $28MM, with $11 to $13MM guaranteed.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 10:56 AM
You just can't consider a slot guy as your #1 WR. He's in the slot for a reason. Real value as a WR comes from being able to beat press coverage. Cruz is a very good player but his value comes in being put in the right situation. A guy like Nicks is just a great WR in any system. Yes he was hurt last season. But that was last season. Does Cruz have great value to us? Yes. Is he worth $8MM/year and $20+MM guaranteed?.....No. Plus the consequences to our position with guys like Nicks and JPP would create a big problem for our team down the road. Its not just about the one guy. Can we acknowledge Cruz as Eli's most productive receiver for the two years he has played?

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:59 AM
Can we acknowledge Cruz as Eli's most productive receiver for the two years he has played?
But he's not the best WR on the team. Cruz was more productive because Nicks had the foot and all the other injuries that came by coming back too soon.

Look at his performance against Tampa when he could barely walk.
Cruz is very good. Nicks is special.

In my view, Hakeem Nicks is simply the best WR the Giants have ever had.

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 11:00 AM
Can we acknowledge Cruz as Eli's most productive receiver for the two years he has played?
Over a two-year period, Cruz is the most productive receiver Eli has ever had.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:03 AM
Cruz is very good......To the tune of 4 to 5 years, $25 to $28MM, with $11 to $13MM guaranteed. The team disagrees with you

Rudyy
05-16-2013, 11:04 AM
Can we acknowledge Cruz as Eli's most productive receiver for the two years he has played?Sure.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:04 AM
Over a two-year period, Cruz is the most productive receiver Eli has ever had. But he's only a slot receiver and we know that can't be. :)

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:07 AM
But he's not the best WR on the team. Cruz was more productive because Nicks had the foot and all the other injuries that came by coming back too soon. Look at his performance against Tampa when he could barely walk. Cruz is very good. Nicks is special. In my view, Hakeem Nicks is simply the best WR the Giants have ever had. How many games did Nicks miss in 2011?

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 11:08 AM
The team disagrees with you
Show me the actual contract for all this money and I will admit that the team disagrees with me.
If it happens, its a mistake.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 11:10 AM
How many games did Nicks miss in 2011?
Are you really going to tell me that you think Cruz is as good or better than Hakeem Nicks?

FBomb
05-16-2013, 11:14 AM
Show me the actual contract for all this money and I will admit that the team disagrees with me.
If it happens, its a mistake.

Reese is going to pay Cruz what Reese thinks is a fair price for the Giants. Are you saying that you would know better than him if he thinks it's 8 mil?

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:16 AM
Show me the actual contract for all this money and I will admit that the team disagrees with me. If it happens, its a mistake. You want to pay Cruz less than Welker.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:18 AM
Are you really going to tell me that you think Cruz is as good or better than Hakeem Nicks? Talk about redirection. That's not my concern. Productivity is what matters.

NYGabriel
05-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Cruz is more than a slot guy. He's shown that he can stretch the field with big play-making ability and he's good at snagging balls in the red zone. He's young with solid productivity over the past 2 seasons and he hasn't been injury prone. As an unrestricted free agent he'd probably go for $7.5 to $10mil in today's market.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Cruz is more than a slot guy. He's shown that he can stretch the field with big play-making ability and he's good at snagging balls in the red zone. He's young with solid productivity over the past 2 seasons and he hasn't been injury prone. As an unrestricted free agent he'd probably go for $7.5 to $10mil in today's market.

We're going to know his worth pretty soon I think.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE=RoanokeFan;766953]We're going to know his worth pretty soon I think.[/QUOTE

If it's anything over vet minimum and a 12 pack of Labatts....it's too much.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 11:52 AM
Reese is going to pay Cruz what Reese thinks is a fair price for the Giants. Are you saying that you would know better than him if he thinks it's 8 mil?
Yes!!!

And how does anyone know what the real offers and demands are?

And I dispute your premise here F. Your question suggests that when JR does something that we disagree with, we have no reason to criticize him. Because "he knows better than us".
If Cruz is signed for the kind of dollars that some are suggesting, I will criticize him plenty.

JesseJames
05-16-2013, 11:53 AM
You can't participate with the team if your not under contract right?thats exactly my point

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE=RoanokeFan;766953]We're going to know his worth pretty soon I think.[/QUOTE If it's anything over vet minimum and a 12 pack of Labatts....it's too much. He is holding out for the Moon Pies

FBomb
05-16-2013, 11:59 AM
Yes!!!

And how does anyone know what the real offers and demands are?

And I dispute your premise here F. Your question suggests that when JR does something that we disagree with, we have no reason to criticize him. Because "he knows better than us".
If Cruz is signed for the kind of dollars that some are suggesting, I will criticize him plenty.

Dispute it all you want......it doesn't make it any less true. If Reese signs Cruz to more than YOU think Cruz is worth he must be wrong. You'll pardon me if I laugh at ANYONE who feels that way.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=FBomb;766955] He is holding out for the Moon Pies

Greedy *******!!!

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 12:00 PM
Yes!!! And how does anyone know what the real offers and demands are? And I dispute your premise here F. Your question suggests that when JR does something that we disagree with, we have no reason to criticize him. Because "he knows better than us". If Cruz is signed for the kind of dollars that some are suggesting, I will criticize him plenty. What next? Criticizing Eli? :)

Kruunch
05-16-2013, 12:10 PM
What next? Criticizing Eli? :)

Oh no you dint!

Kruunch
05-16-2013, 12:11 PM
Cruz is very good......To the tune of 4 to 5 years, $25 to $28MM, with $11 to $13MM guaranteed.

You're insane.

G-Men Surg.
05-16-2013, 12:23 PM
Except the only feud is taking place right here :rolleyes:

LOL .

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 12:23 PM
You're insane.

That's a little harsh

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 12:37 PM
LOL .

:cool:

jomo
05-16-2013, 12:39 PM
I really don't like being in the red zone at all.Whoops missed that, bad metaphor for this team.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Whoops missed that, bad metaphor for this team.

Recently, it's just been a damn mine field we can't seem to navigate. I think Brown and Wilson may cure that this season

TheAnalyst
05-16-2013, 12:53 PM
Over a two-year period, Cruz is the most productive receiver Eli has ever had.

Over a 2 year period, Cruz is the most productive WR the GIANTS ever had in their history, yet he isn't the best on the team?

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 01:02 PM
Over a 2 year period, Cruz is the most productive WR the GIANTS ever had in their history, yet he isn't the best on the team?

There has to be a secret formula to reach that conclusion.

I don't like numbering players in the first place. One of my hangups starters starting because they are starters, not because they are producing like starters. I don't understand why, for example, Tuck and Osi weren't, at least situationally, replaced by Tracy and Ojomo last season. I don't get my panties in a bunch over it because I know the coaching staff knows more than I do, but on the surface, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

So when we have # 1 this and # 2 that I expect the # 1 to be #1 in production. SO I don't label the players that way, I use their names and whoever produces the best is, well, the best, at least for that season.

Broadway Blue
05-16-2013, 01:02 PM
If Cruz contract talks are this long I wonder how long Nicks will be?

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 01:04 PM
If Cruz contract talks are this long I wonder how long Nicks will be?

It will depend on when the start and what kind of season 2013 is for him.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 01:07 PM
If he can regain his former productivity.............could be longer.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 01:08 PM
If he can regain his former productivity.............could be longer.

In all reality, Cruz's "negotiations" really didn't start until 4/20 after the tender offer deadline passed.

Rudyy
05-16-2013, 01:29 PM
Over a 2 year period, Cruz is the most productive WR the GIANTS ever had in their history, yet he isn't the best on the team?Nope.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 01:34 PM
Dispute it all you want......it doesn't make it any less true. If Reese signs Cruz to more than YOU think Cruz is worth he must be wrong. You'll pardon me if I laugh at ANYONE who feels that way.
So if I object to JR drafting Clint Sintim in round 2, I MUST be wrong since JR drafted him there.
NOW I understand!

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 01:34 PM
You're insane.
That is a different matter.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 02:01 PM
So if I object to JR drafting Clint Sintim in round 2, I MUST be wrong since JR drafted him there.
NOW I understand!

Nice stretch....you didn't hurt yourself, did you? Draft picks are a gamble no matter what. You win some you lose some. Cruz is a proven commodity and an asset to the team. Without him 2 years ago, we don't sniff the playoffs....let alone win another SB. Reese will pay him what he is worth.......and I speculate that he values Cruz a little more than you do.

I believe you under value Cruz and I find those who just dismiss him as a slot receiver delusional or just ignoring fact to win an argument.

Cruz will sign soon.....and when you start moaning about his contract I will willing defer to the professionals on it.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 02:19 PM
Nice stretch....you didn't hurt yourself, did you? Draft picks are a gamble no matter what. You win some you lose some. Cruz is a proven commodity and an asset to the team. Without him 2 years ago, we don't sniff the playoffs....let alone win another SB. Reese will pay him what he is worth.......and I speculate that he values Cruz a little more than you do.

I believe you under value Cruz and I find those who just dismiss him as a slot receiver delusional or just ignoring fact to win an argument.

Cruz will sign soon.....and when you start moaning about his contract I will willing defer to the professionals on it.

Deciding who to sign and for how much is also a gamble.
If I think our FO is making a mistake I will say it here. Even though I know they know more than me. It doesn't mean they are always right.
I objected to the fact that JR did NOT sign a vet RT like Eric Winston in free agency which led us to reach for Pugh in round 1 when we could have drafted Xavier Rhodes.
Now we may be signing our #2 WR for a crapload of money and a huge commitment when our #1 guy is ready to start negotiating for HIS new deal. Plus our best defensive player will be coming off his rookie deal and will command huge dollars. Alll while we are up against the cap. We don't even have the money in cap space right now to sign all our draftees.

It seems to me only logical that we don't go crazy with money for Cruz in order to deal with these things. A huge deal for Cruz handcuffs our ability to deal with glaring priorities for this team going forward.
This is what I think. I am just one little fan. But this IS a Giants MB and I WILL express my view even if no one else agrees.

And I will NEVER defer to to anyone simply because they are "professionals" . Professionals make lots of mistakes.

And I have to say, after sharing this message board with you for all these years and seeing the strong positions you have taken so often, I can't believe you are saying that you "defer to the professionals".
That's not the FBomb I've always known. So defer away.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 02:22 PM
Deciding who to sign and for how much is also a gamble.
If I think our FO is making a mistake I will say it here. Even though I know they know more than me. It doesn't mean they are always right.
I objected to the fact that JR did NOT sign a vet RT like Eric Winston in free agency which led us to reach for Pugh in round 1 when we could have drafted Xavier Rhodes.
Now we may be signing our #2 WR for a crapload of money and a huge commitment when our #1 guy is ready to start negotiating for HIS new deal. Plus our best defensive player will be coming off his rookie deal and will command huge dollars. Alll while we are up against the cap. We don't even have the money in cap space right now to sign all our draftees.

It seems to me only logical that we don't go crazy with money for Cruz in order to deal with these things. A huge deal for Cruz handcuffs our ability to deal with glaring priorities for this team going forward.
This is what I think. I am just one little fan. But this IS a Giants MB and I WILL express my view even if no one else agrees.

And that's what makes you special :rolleyes:

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 02:29 PM
And that's what makes you special :rolleyes:
I just can't believe that F is all of the sudden "deferring to the professionals".
That's never been his style. We have way too many posters who are "deferring to the professionals".....and they are boring!

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 02:30 PM
I just can't believe that F is all of the sudden "deferring to the professionals".
That's never been his style. We have way too many posters who are "deferring to the professionals".....and they are boring!

He's a newlywed, give him a break

wayoutwest
05-16-2013, 02:38 PM
then HE IS Definitely DEFERRING.

G-G-GMen420
05-16-2013, 02:39 PM
The irony that it's taking so long to get in the end zone from the "2 yard line" with this contract ......

Freaking OL getting no push as usual ....; )

FBomb
05-16-2013, 03:48 PM
I just can't believe that F is all of the sudden "deferring to the professionals".
That's never been his style. We have way too many posters who are "deferring to the professionals".....and they are boring!

lol.....I will defer to the professionals against the opinion of ANYONE on this board...including myself. RF has said many times in these Cruz threads that the cap is going to get easier next year and we'll have more wiggle room. MY opinion is that Cruz IS worth getting what he can get .....and around 8mil sounds about right to me. Like it or not.....HE is our #1 until Nicks proves otherwise. One "diva" WR at a time.:)

And don't act so shocked. You'll find me defering a lot in all the Reese You Stoopid Imgrate threads over the years. Reese hasn't picked one player in the draft that I thought he should......What is he...****ing stupid? He knows more than me and he's gotten us 2 SB's.....can't argue with success. He deserves full benefit of the doubt.

I think you're wrong about Cruz's worth and I believe Reese feels the same way.....but, of course, I am merely speculating. Maybe, Reese is only offering what YOU think is fair and that's why it's taking so long.......but I doubt it.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 03:58 PM
lol.....I will defer to the professionals against the opinion of ANYONE on this board...including myself. RF has said many times in these Cruz threads that the cap is going to get easier next year and we'll have more wiggle room. MY opinion is that Cruz IS worth getting what he can get .....and around 8mil sounds about right to me. Like it or not.....HE is our #1 until Nicks proves otherwise. One "diva" WR at a time.:)

And don't act so shocked. You'll find me defering a lot in all the Reese You Stoopid Imgrate threads over the years. Reese hasn't picked one player in the draft that I thought he should......What is he...****ing stupid? He knows more than me and he's gotten us 2 SB's.....can't argue with success. He deserves full benefit of the doubt.

I think you're wrong about Cruz's worth and I believe Reese feels the same way.....but, of course, I am merely speculating. Maybe, Reese is only offering what YOU think is fair and that's why it's taking so long.......but I doubt it.

Once such a glorious contrarian.

Alas..........Nothing will be the same again now that F is walking in lock step with the masses. I guess Morehead will have to fight the good fight alone!

FBomb
05-16-2013, 04:02 PM
Once such a glorious contrarian.

Alas..........Nothing will be the same again now that F is walking in lock step with the masses. I guess Morehead will have to fight the good fight alone!

So...I should disagree with my own opinion in order to be an anarchist?

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:05 PM
So...I should disagree with my own opinion in order to be an anarchist?

Vintage Morehead lol

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 04:08 PM
So...I should disagree with my own opinion in order to be an anarchist?
Not at all. I respect your opinion. If its what you think its what you think.
But when you "defer to the professionals", I am very sad.

Another one bites the dust.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 04:09 PM
Vintage Morehead lol

That sounds like soemthing the French would have done.:cool:

FBomb
05-16-2013, 04:10 PM
Not at all. I respect your opinion. If its what you think its what you think.
But when you "defer to the professionals", I am very sad.

Another one bites the dust.


I have a feeling I'm going to be shaking my head at a lot of your posts soon!!

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:13 PM
That sounds like soemthing the French would have done.:cool:

Oui, chateauneuf du morehead

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:13 PM
I have a feeling I'm going to be shaking my head at a lot of your posts soon!!

Better than shaking your fist lol

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 04:16 PM
I have a feeling I'm going to be shaking my head at a lot of your posts soon!!
You might be shaking you head on the outside but you will be nodding on the inside.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 04:18 PM
You might be shaking you head on the outside but you will be nodding OFF on the inside.

Fixed it:D

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:20 PM
Fixed it:D

LMAO

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:23 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that after page after page of polar disagreement on Cruz's salary, not one word of vitriol, name calling, etc. surfaced.

BRAVO!

FBomb
05-16-2013, 04:27 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that after page after page of polar disagreement on Cruz's salary, not one word of vitriol, name calling, etc. surfaced.

BRAVO!

Doody Heads!!!

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:31 PM
Doody Heads!!!

Now we're getting down and dirty :o

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 04:38 PM
Fixed it:D
That's just mean.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 04:39 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that after page after page of polar disagreement on Cruz's salary, not one word of vitriol, name calling, etc. surfaced.

BRAVO!
That's because the "usual suspects" haven't reared their heads.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:39 PM
You might be shaking you head on the outside but you will be nodding on the inside.

That could cause a concussion :popcorn:

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 04:40 PM
That's because the "usual suspects" haven't reared their heads.

True, perhaps, but it can be done

FBomb
05-16-2013, 05:11 PM
That's because the "usual suspects" haven't reared their heads.

Wait.....I'm here. But I am CLEARLY the Keyser Soze of that group!!

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 05:24 PM
Wait.....I'm here. But I am CLEARLY the Keyser Soze of that group!!
I'm talking about the Eli crazies.

TheAnalyst
05-17-2013, 09:15 AM
If he can regain his former productivity.............could be longer.

I actually think if he is struggling this year, it will be more difficult, for the same reason fans here think he is better then Cruz, RIGHT NOW. When Healthy, yes he is, but he is rarely healthy, and if he pulls another slumping year, it could get ugly.