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RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:56 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22246720/ranking-nfl-qbs-rodgers-brady-peyton-and-brees-are-elites-eli-almost-

Excerpt: "Any time you rank a group of things, people get angry. And when you start ranking NFL quarterbacks and then (stupidly?) throwing labels on them, people get real angry. So be prepared to get mad at the following list of quarterbacks, from best to worst.

Prepared to get especially mad because there's really not a precise way of categorizing guys. There's a group of "elite" quarterbacks up top (my group only features four of them, but it can vary dependent on your preferences), there's another group of quarterbacks who have proven they can win right below that, there's a great crop of "young guns," there's a big slew of veteran quarterbacks stuck in limbo in terms of their future as franchise guys, and there's even a glob of young "put up or shut up" quarterbacks.

I've got them roughly grouped like that below, but the defining criteria for this list is that I've picked, in order with one or two quarterbacks from each team, the signal caller who I think gives me the best chance to win a Super Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) in 2013 if all things -- wideouts, offensive line, defense -- were created equal.It's not a list for building a franchise for the long-term future, it's a list for winning this season. And it's also an indication of how deep and talented the quarterback pool in the NFL really is. Feel free to leave your list in the comments or tell me your thoughts on my list on Twitter @WillBrinson

Elite

1. Aaron Rodgers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/419780/aaron-rodgers), Packers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/GB/green-bay-packers): Rodgers didn't have his best statistical season in 2012 and the Packers didn't climb the mountain, but there's no reason to think of him as anything other than the best quarterback in football. He threw for 4,295 yards, 39 touchdowns and had only eight picks last season. A revamped offensive line and the addition of Eddie Lacy and Johnathan Franklin (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1631945/johnathan-franklin) in the running game should only help him improve.

2. Tom Brady (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741/tom-brady), Patriots (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NE/new-england-patriots): I give Brady the ever-so-slight edge on Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning) here, mainly because I think that if you swapped their situations, Brady could put up some eye-popping numbers. He has Rob Gronkowski (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1244303/rob-gronkowski) and Aaron Hernandez (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1273179/aaron-hernandez), but he's losing Wes Welker (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493735/wes-welker). Danny Amendola (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/516968/danny-amendola) joining New England is nice, but I'm not convinced that swap doesn't end up burning Bill Belichick and Co. Brady's two biggest advantages, though, are health (I'm less worried about him than Manning) and a history of throwing to absolute garbage wideouts and still succeeding.

3. Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning), Broncos (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/DEN/denver-broncos): It's almost unfathomable, but Manning nearly had the best season of his career at the age of 36, coming off a few neck surgeries and playing for a new team for the first time in his career. Manning threw for 4,659 yards, 37 touchdowns and 11 interceptions and with Welker coming to Denver, his stats might only get better. This is really 2A and 2B, more than anything else.

4. Drew Brees (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235197/drew-brees), Saints (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NO/new-orleans-saints): You could argue that Brees is higher and maybe he'll be after a year that features a better defense and the return of Sean Payton. Still, Brees threw for more than 5,000 yards for the second-straight season and threw for 43 touchdowns in 2012. His completion percentage (63) was lower and interceptions (19) were higher than you'd like to see from him though.

The next group

5. Eli Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493004/eli-manning), Giants (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NYG/new-york-giants): Yeah, yeah. You can't spell "Elite" without "Eli." And with his secondSuper Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) ring in 2011, the younger Manning proves he belongs. But I'm cutting the list a little shorter for these purposes, and I feel justified after Eli "only" threw for 3,948 yards and 26 touchdowns (along with 15 interceptions) in a slightly down season that saw the Giants miss the playoffs. I'd still be more than happy riding Manning as my franchise guy." Read more...

ny06
05-15-2013, 01:58 PM
You just opened Pandora's box...

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 01:59 PM
It seemed a little dull.......tired of the Cruz threads lol

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:01 PM
lol, I hope Cruz gets signed soon so people stop complaining :)

ShakeandBake
05-15-2013, 02:03 PM
So how long until this thread gets locked

Giant303
05-15-2013, 02:04 PM
This again? who cares if he's Elite he has more rings than 3 guys on that list,

TheEnigma
05-15-2013, 02:04 PM
It seemed a little dull.......tired of the Cruz threads lol

Currently trending on the TAGF section

1) 24/7 reporting on Cruz activities such as his leisure choices and what he eats every night

2) LINEBAKUUUUUHHHHSSSS

3) Why Metlife Stadium is a horrible place and you should feel bad if you support it


Have to love the offseason!

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:04 PM
So how long until this thread gets locked

Why would it get locked?

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:05 PM
Currently trending on the TAGF section

1) 24/7 reporting on Cruz activities such as his leisure choices and what he eats every night

2) LINEBAKUUUUUHHHHSSSS

3) Why Metlife Stadium is a horrible place and you should feel bad if you support it


Have to love the offseason!


The "We Need Cheerleaders" threads are a bit late this year.

KillaRich
05-15-2013, 02:06 PM
The "We Need Cheerleaders" threads are a bit late this year.

lol

Rudyy
05-15-2013, 02:06 PM
Why would it get locked?Are you serious?

njg85m
05-15-2013, 02:07 PM
The writers own justifications for the Brady/Peyton placement completely contradict themselves in my opinion. He's claiming Brady has thrown to "absolute garbage" his entire career? Any given year that team molded a system around players or vice versa. He's making it sound like the Patriots were matching Deon Branch up with #1 CB's and throwing streak routes every play and still "somehow succeeded". He HAD Welker last year, and as he mentions he had Gronk and Hernandez. 90% of his passes were aimed at those three. That's how their system was set up. If he's going to try to use that for Brady, why not for Peyton who got a productive year out of 36 year old Brandon Stokley?

I dunno, his justification is weak IMO.

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:07 PM
The "We Need Cheerleaders" threads are a bit late this year.

Can we get Kate Upton on our squad? I'll be a happy man..

Rudyy
05-15-2013, 02:09 PM
This list is very fair. If this causes a scuffle between the "realists" and the "cutlists", then that's a damn shame.

TheEnigma
05-15-2013, 02:09 PM
Can we get Kate Upton on our squad? I'll be a happy man..

I've been wondering if that is a potential holdup in the Cruz negotiations. There is evidence that Cruz is friends with Ms. Upton and it could be possible that Jay-Z is pushing for a celebrity cheerleading squad in the event the Giants won't pay Cruz over $8M a season.

ShakeandBake
05-15-2013, 02:11 PM
Why would it get locked?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-q0Vt4DEyu5U/UOsQCSx82xI/AAAAAAAAABI/K0fjO-I7G4k/s1600/cmonman.jpg

gumby74
05-15-2013, 02:11 PM
This list is very fair. If this causes a scuffle between the "realists" and the "cutlists", then that's a damn shame.

In the past it has.

KillaRich
05-15-2013, 02:12 PM
List is fair..... At least at isnt some delusional list claiming Flacco is now over Eli into the elites

G-G-GMen420
05-15-2013, 02:13 PM
I personally wouldn't put the packers 3 .... Prob 5 IMO

Pats
Balt
Nyg
Pitt
GB

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:14 PM
Can we get Kate Upton on our squad? I'll be a happy man..

I'll ask her, she has seats next to mine

njg85m
05-15-2013, 02:14 PM
I personally wouldn't put the packers 3 .... Prob 5 IMO

Pats
Balt
Nyg
Pitt
GB

???

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:15 PM
This list is very fair. If this causes a scuffle between the "realists" and the "cutlists", then that's a damn shame.

Keep a good thought, now. After all, we are all adults here

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:17 PM
I've been wondering if that is a potential holdup in the Cruz negotiations. There is evidence that Cruz is friends with Ms. Upton and it could be possible that Jay-Z is pushing for a celebrity cheerleading squad in the event the Giants won't pay Cruz over $8M a season.

lol, Beyonce, Kate Upton, Jessica Alba, Irina Shayk, Megan Fox, Heidi Klum, Mila Kunis, Olivia Wilde and whoever else you guys want.. haha

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:19 PM
I'll ask her, she has seats next to mine

Can we get Kate Mara too?

TCHOF
05-15-2013, 02:19 PM
Here we go . . . . .

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 02:20 PM
Can we get Kate Mara too?

Now THAT would be my hope.

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:21 PM
Now THAT would be my hope.

Yeahhh, I watched Shooter last night and she was looking pretty sexy with that shotty lol

TheEnigma
05-15-2013, 02:29 PM
lol, Beyonce, Kate Upton, Jessica Alba, Irina Shayk, Megan Fox, Heidi Klum, Mila Kunis, Olivia Wilde and whoever else you guys want.. haha

Right. You get the general idea of what is going on here. Beyonce HAS to be included and she will be the leader of the squad. Look at who else is under the Jay-Z Brands and it all adds up in who will be shoved down our throats. This nefarious scheme must be stopped and the Giants must navigate these talks with caution.

Toadofsteel
05-15-2013, 02:31 PM
Right. You get the general idea of what is going on here. Beyonce HAS to be included and she will be the leader of the squad. Look at who else is under the Jay-Z Brands and it all adds up in who will be shoved down our throats. This nefarious scheme must be stopped and the Giants must navigate these talks with caution.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/980141/thumbs/o-BEYONCE-570.jpg?6

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 02:36 PM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/980141/thumbs/o-BEYONCE-570.jpg?6

Look at those man muscles, shes def bottom of the pyramid!

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 02:49 PM
Why would it get locked?Threads have been locked where the debates have been calm.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 02:52 PM
Those guys are consistently top 5 QB's while the rest of the top 10 can change from year to year. Eli was not top 10 last year.

rebelfan1966
05-15-2013, 02:52 PM
Elite, not Elite, what is Elite, who really cares? Just keep bringing home the hardware.....

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 02:55 PM
Elite, not Elite, what is Elite, who really cares? Just keep bringing home the hardware.....This.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 02:56 PM
Eli sucks!!!


Hahahahaha!!!!!

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 02:56 PM
Eli sucks!!!Hahahahaha!!!!!Lock down in 3...2...1...

ShakeandBake
05-15-2013, 02:57 PM
Eli sucks!!!


Hahahahaha!!!!!

Eli>Simms am I right?

ShakeandBake
05-15-2013, 03:01 PM
Eli is the second coming of Jesus Christ, and as far as I am concerned this thread is pure blasphemy.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 03:01 PM
Eli>Simms am I right?
If the standard is who's taller.....yes.

jomo
05-15-2013, 03:03 PM
I didn't realize it was Ground Hog Day ...............again.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 03:05 PM
I didn't realize it was Ground Hog Day ...............again.
He also has a bigger underbite than Phil.

So........there's that.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 03:06 PM
All that's missing now is a HOF thread!

Roosevelt
05-15-2013, 03:29 PM
I think the writer was kind to Eli after last season.

Based solely off last seasons performance, I would rank him #8.

jomo
05-15-2013, 03:35 PM
He also has a bigger underbite than Phil.

So........there's that.;) This thread (or its first cousin) recycles at us about every 7 weeks.

Harooni
05-15-2013, 03:43 PM
I just cant put Eli at Elite ,he never comes in at Top QB in any given year, if the Giants didnt win these last superbowls, Eli;s name doesn't get mentioned.

rebelfan1966
05-15-2013, 03:48 PM
All this thread needs now is mention of Big Ben and Phillip Rivers..... and why not throw Jared Lorenzen in for good measure ; )

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 03:50 PM
All this thread needs now is mention of Big Ben and Phillip Rivers..... and why not throw Jared Lorenzen in for good measure ; )

Jared was the man, he should of got those damn subway commericials instead!

rebelfan1966
05-15-2013, 03:51 PM
I just cant put Eli at Elite ,he never comes in at Top QB in any given year, if the Giants didnt win these last superbowls, Eli;s name doesn't get mentioned.

Looking at your Duck Dynasty photo.... you know Phil Robertson was Elite before Terry Bradshaw was in college, right?

Delicreep
05-15-2013, 03:51 PM
I would think that both sides could manage to be equally unhappy with this.

I mean..it says he's not elite AND that he's top 5 at the same time!

It's a lose/lose as far as I can see.

rebelfan1966
05-15-2013, 03:52 PM
Jared was the man, he should of got those damn subway commericials instead!

He would have had to lose some lbs first... lol

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 03:53 PM
He would have had to lose some lbs first... lol

lol, and that was his downfall...

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 03:53 PM
I would think that both sides could manage to be equally unhappy with this.

I mean..it says he's not elite AND that he's top 5 at the same time!

It's a lose/lose as far as I can see.

Well played

Harooni
05-15-2013, 03:54 PM
Looking at your Duck Dynasty photo.... you know Phil Robertson was Elite before Terry Bradshaw was in college, right? Now your cooking with peanut oil

rebelfan1966
05-15-2013, 03:54 PM
The real question is..... was Tiki Elite?

EnragedYouth85
05-15-2013, 03:57 PM
The real question is..... was Tiki Elite?

Best Tiki play ever imo was when he dragged, if I remember correctly was a Cowboys safety down field for like 20 - 30 yards. Clearly a horsecolar that was not called lol.

RoanokeFan
05-15-2013, 03:58 PM
The real question is..... was Tiki Elite?

Uh Oh

giantscolombia
05-15-2013, 04:10 PM
I'm surprised there is not a massive lock on this thread already...
Props to everyone that has posted so far lol

acepilot1990
05-15-2013, 04:41 PM
Id say eli is elite

Harooni
05-15-2013, 04:54 PM
I would think that both sides could manage to be equally unhappy with this.

I mean..it says he's not elite AND that he's top 5 at the same time!

It's a lose/lose as far as I can see. ill give you top 5 if you will give me not a HOF lock

ChuckKnoxx
05-15-2013, 05:01 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22246720/ranking-nfl-qbs-rodgers-brady-peyton-and-brees-are-elites-eli-almost-

Excerpt: "Any time you rank a group of things, people get angry. And when you start ranking NFL quarterbacks and then (stupidly?) throwing labels on them, people get real angry. So be prepared to get mad at the following list of quarterbacks, from best to worst.

Prepared to get especially mad because there's really not a precise way of categorizing guys. There's a group of "elite" quarterbacks up top (my group only features four of them, but it can vary dependent on your preferences), there's another group of quarterbacks who have proven they can win right below that, there's a great crop of "young guns," there's a big slew of veteran quarterbacks stuck in limbo in terms of their future as franchise guys, and there's even a glob of young "put up or shut up" quarterbacks.

I've got them roughly grouped like that below, but the defining criteria for this list is that I've picked, in order with one or two quarterbacks from each team, the signal caller who I think gives me the best chance to win a Super Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) in 2013 if all things -- wideouts, offensive line, defense -- were created equal.It's not a list for building a franchise for the long-term future, it's a list for winning this season. And it's also an indication of how deep and talented the quarterback pool in the NFL really is. Feel free to leave your list in the comments or tell me your thoughts on my list on Twitter @WillBrinson

Elite

1. Aaron Rodgers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/419780/aaron-rodgers), Packers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/GB/green-bay-packers): Rodgers didn't have his best statistical season in 2012 and the Packers didn't climb the mountain, but there's no reason to think of him as anything other than the best quarterback in football. He threw for 4,295 yards, 39 touchdowns and had only eight picks last season. A revamped offensive line and the addition of Eddie Lacy and Johnathan Franklin (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1631945/johnathan-franklin) in the running game should only help him improve.

2. Tom Brady (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741/tom-brady), Patriots (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NE/new-england-patriots): I give Brady the ever-so-slight edge on Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning) here, mainly because I think that if you swapped their situations, Brady could put up some eye-popping numbers. He has Rob Gronkowski (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1244303/rob-gronkowski) and Aaron Hernandez (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1273179/aaron-hernandez), but he's losing Wes Welker (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493735/wes-welker). Danny Amendola (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/516968/danny-amendola) joining New England is nice, but I'm not convinced that swap doesn't end up burning Bill Belichick and Co. Brady's two biggest advantages, though, are health (I'm less worried about him than Manning) and a history of throwing to absolute garbage wideouts and still succeeding.

3. Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning), Broncos (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/DEN/denver-broncos): It's almost unfathomable, but Manning nearly had the best season of his career at the age of 36, coming off a few neck surgeries and playing for a new team for the first time in his career. Manning threw for 4,659 yards, 37 touchdowns and 11 interceptions and with Welker coming to Denver, his stats might only get better. This is really 2A and 2B, more than anything else.

4. Drew Brees (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235197/drew-brees), Saints (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NO/new-orleans-saints): You could argue that Brees is higher and maybe he'll be after a year that features a better defense and the return of Sean Payton. Still, Brees threw for more than 5,000 yards for the second-straight season and threw for 43 touchdowns in 2012. His completion percentage (63) was lower and interceptions (19) were higher than you'd like to see from him though.

The next group

5. Eli Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493004/eli-manning), Giants (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NYG/new-york-giants): Yeah, yeah. You can't spell "Elite" without "Eli." And with his secondSuper Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) ring in 2011, the younger Manning proves he belongs. But I'm cutting the list a little shorter for these purposes, and I feel justified after Eli "only" threw for 3,948 yards and 26 touchdowns (along with 15 interceptions) in a slightly down season that saw the Giants miss the playoffs. I'd still be more than happy riding Manning as my franchise guy." Read more...


Funny, because of those 5 names no one makes the players around him elevate better than Eli Manning.

Even Brady gets the luxury of his front office always bringing in the latest "kick the tires star" wide receiver. Eli makes his WR's a STAR.

Let them keep debating while we continue to go under renovations for our trophy case.

GameTime
05-15-2013, 06:02 PM
Funny, because of those 5 names no one makes the players around him elevate better than Eli Manning.

Even Brady gets the luxury of his front office always bringing in the latest "kick the tires star" wide receiver. Eli makes his WR's a STAR.

Let them keep debating while we continue to go under renovations for our trophy case.
disagree totally.....every great QB has good to great receivers and vice versa.......its a tandem......they elevate each other....
Brady..Welker for example.....
Brees .....Colston
Rodgers.....Nelson

ChuckKnoxx
05-15-2013, 06:34 PM
disagree totally.....every great QB has good to great receivers and vice versa.......its a tandem......they elevate each other....Brady..Welker for example.....Brees .....ColstonRodgers.....NelsonYeah, that argument would work out fantastic if it were not for the fact that Eli has won 2 rings with 2 entirely different crops of wideouts. No one on the list elevates his entire offense more than #10. You can make the argument for Rodgers simply due to the fact he's the best qb in the game, but Eli and those stats imo back my claim up.

Toadofsteel
05-15-2013, 06:51 PM
Yeah, that argument would work out fantastic if it were not for the fact that Eli has won 2 rings with 2 entirely different crops of wideouts. No one on the list elevates his entire offense more than #10. You can make the argument for Rodgers simply due to the fact he's the best qb in the game, but Eli and those stats imo back my claim up.

Maybe Eli doesn't put up the stats that other QBs do, but he has one intangible that no other QB in the game has: toughness, both physical and mental. He gets injured week 1 in 2007. Doctors say he could be out for two months, comes back the very next week. No other QB in the league could have won at the stick in that 2011 title game. Neither Brady nor Rodgers could have won out. In the cold rain, against that defense, getting sacked 6 times, throwing 58 times and not committing a single turnover...

Honestly, I'm surprised Eli's toughness isn't more of a meme around here. I remember the iconic thread Kruunch started discussing Eli's borderline HoF career (and how he would generally be accepted as a HoF if he has a few more years of solid production, even without additional rings), and the question was posed: "What would happen if Eli was struck by a meteor today?"

The answer, of course, provided by Dwinsballgames, was: "He would just shake it off and go back to the huddle". I still think this was the post of the decade...

Bing Crosby
05-15-2013, 06:57 PM
An is Eli elite thread..... WE ARE GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL!!!!

GameTime
05-15-2013, 07:26 PM
Yeah, that argument would work out fantastic if it were not for the fact that Eli has won 2 rings with 2 entirely different crops of wideouts. No one on the list elevates his entire offense more than #10. You can make the argument for Rodgers simply due to the fact he's the best qb in the game, but Eli and those stats imo back my claim up.
not taking anything away from Eli at all. I just see it as a give and take. The SBs mean a great deal but the other QBs probably all posted better reg season records consistently. You cant have a great season with lousy WRs or QBs.....

ShakeandBake
05-15-2013, 07:38 PM
Funny, because of those 5 names no one makes the players around him elevate better than Eli Manning.

Even Brady gets the luxury of his front office always bringing in the latest "kick the tires star" wide receiver. Eli makes his WR's a STAR.

Let them keep debating while we continue to go under renovations for our trophy case.

I disagree, and on top of that those 4 ranked above Eli play at a high level more consistently than Eli, which has been his achilles heel his entire career. Eli can play as good as the 4 mentioned above him, but he can also play terribly as well, which you rarely if ever see out of Brees, Peyton,Brady or Rodgers.

NYGabriel
05-15-2013, 07:59 PM
The writer must be a Giants fan because there is definitely some home cooking going on if Eli is the 5th best QB.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 08:02 PM
The writer must be a Giants fan because there is definitely some home cooking going on if Eli is the 5th best QB.

Where would you rank him?

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 09:22 PM
this is prob the most fair list to appease the GMB. This article has him ranked #5, but not elite. I think thats the perfect middle ground for everyone. Top 5 is elite in many's eyes, but he doesn't get the official title of it here.

I think based on last year, ranking him @ 5 is fair. Had he performed a bit more like 2011, he'd prob be 3a with Brady and his bro, but thats not what happened. Also, besides Rodgers (and I believe even including him) Eli is the youngest QB on the top 5.

On my list, he's #1 and I feel I can justify that. But this article is def. fair.

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 09:29 PM
Funny, because of those 5 names no one makes the players around him elevate better than Eli Manning.

Even Brady gets the luxury of his front office always bringing in the latest "kick the tires star" wide receiver. Eli makes his WR's a STAR.

Let them keep debating while we continue to go under renovations for our trophy case.fair point to an exent.

and, someone mentioned riivers so I'll throw my .2 cents in (seeing as I was the ONLY person who literally called Rivers decline a few yrs ago when it'd seem insane to state so). On passes 10 yds(could be 20) or more, Rivers has ranked WORSE than Sanchez the past 2 seasons. He's also been WORSE than Sanchez in the redzone. Saw a clip about it on ESPN, discussing the new coaching staff and McCoy stating he'd like Rivers @ 70% completion (which he is on passes 10 yds or less). Its just on everything else, Rivers has become garbage.
It was only 3 yrs ago you'd find a couple posters who'd swear by Rivers and STILL felt the trade wasnt for the best...Glad to see theres absolutely no remaining argument for the eli vs rivers debate.

miked1958
05-15-2013, 09:31 PM
Funny how 3 of the 4 ahead of Eli only have 1 SB ring each.

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 09:31 PM
Maybe Eli doesn't put up the stats that other QBs do, but he has one intangible that no other QB in the game has: toughness, both physical and mental. He gets injured week 1 in 2007. Doctors say he could be out for two months, comes back the very next week. No other QB in the league could have won at the stick in that 2011 title game. Neither Brady nor Rodgers could have won out. In the cold rain, against that defense, getting sacked 6 times, throwing 58 times and not committing a single turnover...

Honestly, I'm surprised Eli's toughness isn't more of a meme around here. I remember the iconic thread Kruunch started discussing Eli's borderline HoF career (and how he would generally be accepted as a HoF if he has a few more years of solid production, even without additional rings), and the question was posed: "What would happen if Eli was struck by a meteor today?"

The answer, of course, provided by Dwinsballgames, was: "He would just shake it off and go back to the huddle". I still think this was the post of the decade...awesome post totally awesome

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 09:41 PM
Funny, because of those 5 names no one makes the players around him elevate better than Eli Manning. Even Brady gets the luxury of his front office always bringing in the latest "kick the tires star" wide receiver. Eli makes his WR's a STAR. Let them keep debating while we continue to go under renovations for our trophy case.Think this is the exact reason that keeps Eli out f the top 5. They top 5 guys consistently do well no matter who they are throwing for. All those QB's have dealt with losing their favorite targets and they all seem to just keep going. Eli on the other hand is inconsistent and that's what makes him a top 10 one year and out of the top 10 another.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Funny how 3 of the 4 ahead of Eli only have 1 SB ring each.Team sport.

Flip Empty
05-15-2013, 09:53 PM
Also, besides Rodgers (and I believe even including him) Eli is the youngest QB on the top 5.

Rodgers turned 29 in December.

Morehead State
05-15-2013, 10:06 PM
fair point to an exent.

and, someone mentioned riivers so I'll throw my .2 cents in (seeing as I was the ONLY person who literally called Rivers decline a few yrs ago when it'd seem insane to state so). On passes 10 yds(could be 20) or more, Rivers has ranked WORSE than Sanchez the past 2 seasons. He's also been WORSE than Sanchez in the redzone. Saw a clip about it on ESPN, discussing the new coaching staff and McCoy stating he'd like Rivers @ 70% completion (which he is on passes 10 yds or less). Its just on everything else, Rivers has become garbage.
It was only 3 yrs ago you'd find a couple posters who'd swear by Rivers and STILL felt the trade wasnt for the best...Glad to see theres absolutely no remaining argument for the eli vs rivers debate.

Ryan: Not as good as Eli
Ben: Better than Eli

Roosevelt
05-15-2013, 10:21 PM
Rodgers turned 29 in December.

Yes but Eli plays younger.

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 10:24 PM
Ryan: Not as good as Eli
Ben: Better than Elidisagree but its subjective. i honestly wouldnt even put ben on the same level as eli in terms of being a pure pocket qb. big ben makes his plays in a completely different manner (based on his physical ability to break tackles whereas eli breaks down D's with his arm and mind) and it just comes down to preference.
Which way is the better way to succeed though? Thats not even close bc Eli hasn't missed a game while Big Ben has (to injury and rape allegations) so...for me its a no brainer, eli over ben. but to each his own.

Roosevelt
05-15-2013, 10:29 PM
Maybe Eli doesn't put up the stats that other QBs do,


Overall Eli puts up good stats - it's just a bumpy ride along the way.



but he has one intangible that no other QB in the game has: toughness,


Wrong. All successful football players are tough. They wouldn't survive otherwise.




both physical and mental. He gets injured week 1 in 2007. Doctors say he could be out for two months, comes back the very next week. No other QB in the league could have won at the stick in that 2011 title game. Neither Brady nor Rodgers could have won out. In the cold rain, against that defense, getting sacked 6 times, throwing 58 times and not committing a single turnover...


Pure conjecture.





Honestly, I'm surprised Eli's toughness isn't more of a meme around here. I remember the iconic thread Kruunch started discussing Eli's borderline HoF career (and how he would generally be accepted as a HoF if he has a few more years of solid production, even without additional rings), and the question was posed: "What would happen if Eli was struck by a meteor today?"

The answer, of course, provided by Dwinsballgames, was: "He would just shake it off and go back to the huddle". I still think this was the post of the decade...


Sounds like Madden to me.

B&RWarrior
05-15-2013, 10:32 PM
I disagree, and on top of that those 4 ranked above Eli play at a high level more consistently than Eli, which has been his achilles heel his entire career. Eli can play as good as the 4 mentioned above him, but he can also play terribly as well, which you rarely if ever see out of Brees, Peyton,Brady or Rodgers.

+1

Roosevelt
05-15-2013, 10:33 PM
Funny how 3 of the 4 ahead of Eli only have 1 SB ring each.

Why? There are plenty of truly great quarterbacks who haven't won the big game.

It takes a team to win a Super Bowl, not just a quarterback.

B&RWarrior
05-15-2013, 10:35 PM
Maybe Eli doesn't put up the stats that other QBs do, but he has one intangible that no other QB in the game has: toughness, both physical and mental. He gets injured week 1 in 2007. Doctors say he could be out for two months, comes back the very next week. No other QB in the league could have won at the stick in that 2011 title game. Neither Brady nor Rodgers could have won out. In the cold rain, against that defense, getting sacked 6 times, throwing 58 times and not committing a single turnover...

Honestly, I'm surprised Eli's toughness isn't more of a meme around here. I remember the iconic thread Kruunch started discussing Eli's borderline HoF career (and how he would generally be accepted as a HoF if he has a few more years of solid production, even without additional rings), and the question was posed: "What would happen if Eli was struck by a meteor today?"

The answer, of course, provided by Dwinsballgames, was: "He would just shake it off and go back to the huddle". I still think this was the post of the decade...

and reality has just left the building...

BlueReign
05-15-2013, 10:42 PM
Meh, who cares. I'll take rings over stats.

ChuckKnoxx
05-15-2013, 11:19 PM
No one is denying Eli is not as consistent as Brady or Rodgers. The point I was making, was no one elevates the entire offense like Eli. I don't think people really get it. Eli Manning is a two time super bowl MVP with a completely different set of players on offense, minus Jacobs and Bradshaw with Ward being the odd man out in 2011's run.

So that means you are talking about 3-4 new wide receivers each title, PLUS completely different sets of tight ends. When Rodgers does that I will submit this argument over to him. Until then I don't want to hear about another QB making the players around them better when Eli has won 2 rings in the last 6 years with an entirely NEW SET of offensive weapons. That is unheard of folks.

Side-note:

Almost camp.

Roosevelt
05-15-2013, 11:19 PM
Meh, who cares. I'll take rings over stats.

He has good stats. Meh.

miked1958
05-15-2013, 11:35 PM
Why? There are plenty of truly great quarterbacks who haven't won the big game. It takes a team to win a Super Bowl, not just a quarterback.number 1, check out what Chuck Knoxx said back a page... Really good point.. ( two rings with two totally different crops of WRs) that's saying something right there. And number 2, I may be wrong but didnt Eli engineer two of the greatest drives in SB History to win two different SBs? Eli should be ranked higher. However those polls take regular season stats into play and those other guys have had record setting MVP seasons..That's why they are rated higher. For me, I'll take him getting us to the playoffs on ok regular seasons as long as he is Mr. Clutch as always in the Playoffs and SB!!

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:44 PM
number 1, check out what Chuck Knoxx said back a page... Really good point.. ( two rings with two totally different crops of WRs) that's saying something right there. And number 2, I may be wrong but didnt Eli engineer two of the greatest drives in SB History to win two different SBs? Eli should be ranked higher. However those polls take regular season stats into play and those other guys have had record setting MVP seasons..That's why they are rated higher. For me, I'll take him getting us to the playoffs on ok regular seasons as long as he is Mr. Clutch as always in the Playoffs and SB!!What have those other guys done to not win a Championship?

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 11:45 PM
No one is denying Eli is not as consistent as Brady or Rodgers. The point I was making, was no one elevates the entire offense like Eli. I don't think people really get it. Eli Manning is a two time super bowl MVP with a completely different set of players on offense, minus Jacobs and Bradshaw with Ward being the odd man out in 2011's run.

So that means you are talking about 3-4 new wide receivers each title, PLUS completely different sets of tight ends. When Rodgers does that I will submit this argument over to him. Until then I don't want to hear about another QB making the players around them better when Eli has won 2 rings in the last 6 years with an entirely NEW SET of offensive weapons. That is unheard of folks.

Side-note:

Almost camp.nice post.

miked1958
05-15-2013, 11:45 PM
But Roosevelt & Buddy. For the most part your both correct.. It is a team sport and takes a team to win a SB ( including a great defense ) and not just a QB.. My point was Eli's play not just in those SBs but also in all those playoff games (especially all the Away games) leading up to the SBs was nothing short of spectacular. He deserved the SB MVPs... And IMO deserves to be higher on those lists

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:48 PM
But Roosevelt & Buddy. For the most part your both correct.. It is a team sport and takes a team to win a SB ( including a great defense ) and not just a QB.. My point was Eli's play not just in those SBs but also in all those playoff games (especially all the Away games) leading up to the SBs was nothing short of spectacular. He deserved the SB MVPs... And IMO deserves to be higher on those listsHe did have two of the most amazing final drives in the Super Bowl and did deserve his MVP's. That does not mean he is any better than the top 5 just because he has two rings. Was Bradshaw better than Marino?

B&RWarrior
05-15-2013, 11:53 PM
number 1, check out what Chuck Knoxx said back a page... Really good point.. ( two rings with two totally different crops of WRs) that's saying something right there. And number 2, I may be wrong but didnt Eli engineer two of the greatest drives in SB History to win two different SBs? Eli should be ranked higher. However those polls take regular season stats into play and those other guys have had record setting MVP seasons..That's why they are rated higher. For me, I'll take him getting us to the playoffs on ok regular seasons as long as he is Mr. Clutch as always in the Playoffs and SB!!

Problem with that logic is we missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years. So if you're going to give him ALL the credit for getting us into the playoff, something I think is way off the mark, then you need to give him all the blame for not making the playoffs.

My second point is that Eli has had 2 different WR cores, both have been way above average. If your saying he "made" Plax, Toomer, and Shockey then I am saying that you are rewriting history. They were good when he got here. In fact they did more to help him develop then he did to help them.

People like to dance around the truth. The fact is AR is better QB- HANDS DOWN! Brady is a better QB- hands down! Had Welker not dropped that pass in the SB we would NEVER be having this conversation. Breese is a better QB than Eli, but not as good as Brady and AR. Breese has been successful in 2 different systems.

I really don't care what Eli is ranked. He's our QB and he has come through big enough already that if we never win another one with Eli, he will have done his job as a Giant. Rankings don't matter, but I can't lie and say he's better than AR. AR was on my FF, so I watched him play a lot. This Eli vs. AR argument is a joke. It will only take place on a Giants board or among Giant homers that are delusional.

B&RWarrior
05-15-2013, 11:56 PM
He did have two of the most amazing final drives in the Super Bowl and did deserve his MVP's. That does not mean he is any better than the top 5 just because he has two rings. Was Bradshaw better than Marino?

The first drive he had an amazing scramble, but equally amazing were the 2 catches of the receivers on that drive. I will always think that the MVP of the first of Eli's SBs was that defensive line.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:58 PM
The first drive he had an amazing scramble, but equally amazing were the 2 catches of the receivers on that drive. I will always think that the MVP of the first of Eli's SBs was that defensive line.Until "the catch" Tuck was probably their best player that game. That play is a part of history and won Eli his 1st MVP.

B&RWarrior
05-16-2013, 12:01 AM
No one is denying Eli is not as consistent as Brady or Rodgers. The point I was making, was no one elevates the entire offense like Eli. I don't think people really get it. Eli Manning is a two time super bowl MVP with a completely different set of players on offense, minus Jacobs and Bradshaw with Ward being the odd man out in 2011's run.

So that means you are talking about 3-4 new wide receivers each title, PLUS completely different sets of tight ends. When Rodgers does that I will submit this argument over to him. Until then I don't want to hear about another QB making the players around them better when Eli has won 2 rings in the last 6 years with an entirely NEW SET of offensive weapons. That is unheard of folks.

Side-note:

Almost camp.

This proves you don't watch GB play. AR started off targeting Driver and Jennings then he put Finely in the mix, and due to age and injury this past season and the year before he started slinging it to Jordy Nelson and Cobb.

Buddy333
05-16-2013, 12:04 AM
Rodgers last two season may be the best two season ever by a QB. He has thrown 70 more TD's than interceptions over the past two seasons. That is incredible and really puts him in a class by himself. The list is should really be Rodgers then another level that includes Brady, Brees, and Manning. Then every year the next 5-10 can change from year to year.

miked1958
05-16-2013, 12:43 AM
What have those other guys done to not win a Championship?well they have all won at least one except Brady who has more then all of them. But my point was that they are looking at overall numbers counting regular season. If you look at it that way then the list is fine. I still take Eli in the clutch down less the 7 with 2 or 3 minutes left and a whole field to cover to win the game. He gets it done

Toadofsteel
05-16-2013, 01:17 AM
You guys let me know when Eli does this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/files/2013/01/tombrady11.jpg
http://www.northwestkingdome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/romo-incosolable-e1348152773228.jpg

Toadofsteel
05-16-2013, 01:18 AM
Or this:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1003/nfl_g_cnewton1_sy_576.jpg
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/aaron-rodgers-mustache-photo.jpg

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 02:16 AM
You guys let me know when Eli does this:

Or this:

Does what, loses a game? Eli's done that.

Loses a playoff game? Eli's done that, too.

Misses the playoffs completely? Eli's also done that.

Mopes because he lost one of the above games? Err... manningface.com?

Buddy333
05-16-2013, 07:54 AM
well they have all won at least one except Brady who has more then all of them. But my point was that they are looking at overall numbers counting regular season. If you look at it that way then the list is fine. I still take Eli in the clutch down less the 7 with 2 or 3 minutes left and a whole field to cover to win the game. He gets it doneHe has been clutch no doubt, but its a team sport. The Giants defense shut down every team, good offenses, on their way to their last two Super Bowl wins. The Giants defense beat Rodgers, not Eli.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 07:56 AM
He has been clutch no doubt, but its a team sport. The Giants defense shut down every team, good offenses, on their way to their last two Super Bowl wins. The Giants defense beat Rodgers, not Eli.

+1

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 10:12 AM
He has been clutch no doubt, but its a team sport. The Giants defense shut down every team, good offenses, on their way to their last two Super Bowl wins. The Giants defense beat Rodgers, not Eli.

Yep.

Looking at the Super Bowls alone, 21 points is the lowest amount scored by a winning team since Pittsburgh beat Seattle 21-10 in 2006, and 17 points is the lowest amount scored by a SB winner since Miami defeated Washington 14-7 in 1973.

The 07 and 11 teams didn't need to score 30 points to win XLII and XLVI because the defense kept the opposition in check. Definitely team wins.

Ntegrase96
05-16-2013, 10:35 AM
No one is denying Eli is not as consistent as Brady or Rodgers. The point I was making, was no one elevates the entire offense like Eli. I don't think people really get it. Eli Manning is a two time super bowl MVP with a completely different set of players on offense, minus Jacobs and Bradshaw with Ward being the odd man out in 2011's run.

So that means you are talking about 3-4 new wide receivers each title, PLUS completely different sets of tight ends. When Rodgers does that I will submit this argument over to him. Until then I don't want to hear about another QB making the players around them better when Eli has won 2 rings in the last 6 years with an entirely NEW SET of offensive weapons. That is unheard of folks.

Side-note:

Almost camp.

I'm not too sure about that. Eli elevates his players, sure. But it's not like he doesn't get much help from his receivers. Plaxico and Nicks are top talent receivers.

You could say the same for the other guys... especially Brees.

Ntegrase96
05-16-2013, 10:35 AM
Pretty accurate list from a media source? Shocking.

FBomb
05-16-2013, 10:37 AM
It's pretty damn accurate. Must be new to the sport!!:D

Delicreep
05-16-2013, 12:40 PM
ill give you top 5 if you will give me not a HOF lock

I'll make a counter offer: I will stop saying that Eli is a HOF lock if you stop saying that Simm's says Eli's not a HOFer.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/giants/story/2012-08-01/eli-manning-giants/56671570/1

However, Simm's did say Eli is not elite QB.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/raissman-simms-steps-manning-blitz-article-1.1201647

And I suppose it's accurate to say he's not a lock.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1061804-hall-of-fame-odds-for-top-25-active-nfl-qbs/page/22

You keep holding out for that .01% chance he doesn't make it.

Harooni
05-16-2013, 02:59 PM
I'll make a counter offer: I will stop saying that Eli is a HOF lock if you stop saying that Simm's says Eli's not a HOFer.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/giants/story/2012-08-01/eli-manning-giants/56671570/1

However, Simm's did say Eli is not elite QB.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/raissman-simms-steps-manning-blitz-article-1.1201647

And I suppose it's accurate to say he's not a lock.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1061804-hall-of-fame-odds-for-top-25-active-nfl-qbs/page/22

You keep holding out for that .01% chance he doesn't make it.
i really doubt it is .01% chance as it stands right now, but league MVP or another ring or dominant play the next few years who knows.


PS i cant stop using the simms and Warner argument because it holds the most weight . who would one believe men that played the position and for the same team , or a Eli fan? its really a slam dunk.

Delicreep
05-16-2013, 03:50 PM
i really doubt it is .01% chance as it stands right now, but league MVP or another ring or dominant play the next few years who knows.


PS i cant stop using the simms and Warner argument because it holds the most weight . who would one believe men that played the position and for the same team , or a Eli fan? its really a slam dunk.

Well...you should stop using the Simms argument because it's just not true. He says HOFer.

Remind me, aside from former MVP Kurt Warner, who exactly says you need an MVP to get into the HOF?

And no, you don't count.

RoanokeFan
05-16-2013, 03:52 PM
i really doubt it is .01% chance as it stands right now, but league MVP or another ring or dominant play the next few years who knows.


PS i cant stop using the simms and Warner argument because it holds the most weight . who would one believe men that played the position and for the same team , or a Eli fan? its really a slam dunk.


In the end, it will be determined by Eli's entire body of work contrasted with the same criteria for those other nominees at the time Eli is nominated.

thegreatone
05-16-2013, 06:57 PM
Eli has two sb wins/Mbps under his belt. The only one above him is Brady IMO. Passing for a ton of yards means jack if it doesn't get you a sb win. Just ask Marino.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 07:16 PM
Eli has two sb wins/Mbps under his belt. The only one above him is Brady IMO. Passing for a ton of yards means jack if it doesn't get you a sb win. Just ask Marino.
The question is how good (or great) a player is. Not as much how well the teams they played for did. The Hall is an individual achievement.
The Giants won 2 SB's with Eli at QB. But to say that Eli is even close to being in Dan Marino's league as a football player is nonsense.
The SB's are nice when evaluating the greatness of a football player, but you are either great or you aren't. Eli isn't great. He is very good and I'm glad he's our QB. But you have to be great to be in the Hall.

Ultimately though, Delicreep may be right. The SB's may be enough to sway voters even though he's not a great player. Troy Aikman couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock, but Aikman is in the Hall and Randall isn't.
The SB's mean something to voters. As misguided as that may be.

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 07:21 PM
Why does this always circle back to whether Eli is HoF-worthy or not?

Is it merely the natural evolution of the "Is Eli elite?" argument?

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 07:23 PM
Why does this always circle back to whether Eli is HoF-worthy or not?

Is it merely the natural evolution of the "Is Eli elite?" argument?
Sorry...It will never be resolved.

SweetZombieJesus
05-16-2013, 08:17 PM
The question is how good (or great) a player is. Not as much how well the teams they played for did. The Hall is an individual achievement.
The Giants won 2 SB's with Eli at QB. But to say that Eli is even close to being in Dan Marino's league as a football player is nonsense.
The SB's are nice when evaluating the greatness of a football player, but you are either great or you aren't. Eli isn't great. He is very good and I'm glad he's our QB. But you have to be great to be in the Hall.

Eli is "great" in his own way and it's undeniable.

TWICE he took the field down with under 4 minutes to go in a Super Bowl, and both times he delivered the game winning score. Both involved all-time highlight catches and he's the one that threw them. Both were against Brady's Patriots -- once when they were 2:32 away from being 19-0.

He holds the NFL record for 4th quarter TD passes. He will probably hold all Giants passing records when he hangs it up.

He's certainly not your textbook "great" QB but it's hard to argue the points I put on the table.

Bing Crosby
05-16-2013, 08:17 PM
I usually just skip these threads, since pretty much everyone knows what everyone else thinks of our two time SBMVP. But....

After actually reading the article, this guy list Eli as the 5th greatest QB playing right now... but that isn't being an "Elite" QB. Well that makes a helluva lot of sense.

Roosevelt
05-16-2013, 09:00 PM
No one is denying Eli is not as consistent as Brady or Rodgers. The point I was making, was no one elevates the entire offense like Eli.

This makes no sense as you are admitting that Brady and Rogers are consistently better.


I don't think people really get it. Eli Manning is a two time super bowl MVP with a completely different set of players on offense, minus Jacobs and Bradshaw with Ward being the odd man out in 2011's run. So that means you are talking about 3-4 new wide receivers each title, PLUS completely different sets of tight ends. When Rodgers does that I will submit this argument over to him.

The average career of an NFL player is about 4 years, so if it takes you that long to return to the Super Bowl there's a very good possibility the team will look a lot different.

And let's be realistic about Eli in 2007. He wasn't anywhere near the player he was in 2011. Had Eli not finished the season strong in 2007 who knows if he'd even be a Giant right now. He had the Giants FO very frustrated up until that point. I'm very happy for him that he won the MVP but that award could have easily gone to Justin Tuck.


Until then I don't want to hear about another QB making the players around them better when Eli has won 2 rings in the last 6 years with an entirely NEW SET of offensive weapons. That is unheard of folks.

Nonsense. You need to check the history books.

.

ShakeandBake
05-16-2013, 09:07 PM
Problem with that logic is we missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years. So if you're going to give him ALL the credit for getting us into the playoff, something I think is way off the mark, then you need to give him all the blame for not making the playoffs.

My second point is that Eli has had 2 different WR cores, both have been way above average. If your saying he "made" Plax, Toomer, and Shockey then I am saying that you are rewriting history. They were good when he got here. In fact they did more to help him develop then he did to help them.

People like to dance around the truth. The fact is AR is better QB- HANDS DOWN! Brady is a better QB- hands down! Had Welker not dropped that pass in the SB we would NEVER be having this conversation. Breese is a better QB than Eli, but not as good as Brady and AR. Breese has been successful in 2 different systems.

I really don't care what Eli is ranked. He's our QB and he has come through big enough already that if we never win another one with Eli, he will have done his job as a Giant. Rankings don't matter, but I can't lie and say he's better than AR. AR was on my FF, so I watched him play a lot. This Eli vs. AR argument is a joke. It will only take place on a Giants board or among Giant homers that are delusional.

Bingo.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 09:10 PM
Eli is "great" in his own way and it's undeniable.

TWICE he took the field down with under 4 minutes to go in a Super Bowl, and both times he delivered the game winning score. Both involved all-time highlight catches and he's the one that threw them. Both were against Brady's Patriots -- once when they were 2:32 away from being 19-0.

He holds the NFL record for 4th quarter TD passes. He will probably hold all Giants passing records when he hangs it up.

He's certainly not your textbook "great" QB but it's hard to argue the points I put on the table.

Whatever.............Eli is fine.

"great in his own way"..... I love you guys.

thegreatone
05-16-2013, 09:48 PM
The question is how good (or great) a player is. Not as much how well the teams they played for did. The Hall is an individual achievement.
The Giants won 2 SB's with Eli at QB. But to say that Eli is even close to being in Dan Marino's league as a football player is nonsense.
The SB's are nice when evaluating the greatness of a football player, but you are either great or you aren't. Eli isn't great. He is very good and I'm glad he's our QB. But you have to be great to be in the Hall.

Ultimately though, Delicreep may be right. The SB's may be enough to sway voters even though he's not a great player. Troy Aikman couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock, but Aikman is in the Hall and Randall isn't.
The SB's mean something to voters. As misguided as that may be.Eli hasn't been great his entire career but we all know he can turn it on and that entire season he was money with the 4th quarter comebacks like it was nothin. I never said he was as good as Marino as a pure passer I said yards don't =sb wins and while it IS a team sport Eli marched down the field in both sb's to give us the lead late. Eli is the only football player that can make me both nervous as hell and give me extreme optimism that he can pull out the W at the end. Ultimately though I'll take Eli over everyone of those qb's because of the clutch factor. He will be a hof'r that's a no brainer

4thand1
05-16-2013, 09:54 PM
The question is how good (or great) a player is. Not as much how well the teams they played for did. The Hall is an individual achievement.
The Giants won 2 SB's with Eli at QB. But to say that Eli is even close to being in Dan Marino's league as a football player is nonsense.
The SB's are nice when evaluating the greatness of a football player, but you are either great or you aren't. Eli isn't great. He is very good and I'm glad he's our QB. But you have to be great to be in the Hall.

Ultimately though, Delicreep may be right. The SB's may be enough to sway voters even though he's not a great player. Troy Aikman couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock, but Aikman is in the Hall and Randall isn't.
The SB's mean something to voters. As misguided as that may be.

Yes, everybody knows that fantasy football stats are far more important than winning championships.

Only Giants homers would ever dare rank Eli above Romo or Rivers

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 09:58 PM
Eli hasn't been great his entire career but we all know he can turn it on and that entire season he was money with the 4th quarter comebacks like it was nothin. I never said he was as good as Marino as a pure passer I said yards don't =sb wins and while it IS a team sport Eli marched down the field in both sb's to give us the lead late. Eli is the only football player that can make me both nervous as hell and give me extreme optimism that he can pull out the W at the end. Ultimately though I'll take Eli over everyone of those qb's because of the clutch factor. He will be a hof'r that's a no brainer
I agree that Eli is like that. He can be great at times and horrible at times. To me on average it makes him very good.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 09:58 PM
Yes, everybody knows that fantasy football stats are far more important than winning championships.

Only Giants homers would ever dare rank Eli above Romo or Rivers
And the crazies make their first appearance for a while.

thegreatone
05-16-2013, 10:02 PM
Another reason I put Brady 1 and Eli 2 is the level of talent the rest of the qbs had around them. Rodgers and Drew have always had a sick arsenal of offensive weapons. The other manning had 2...TWO future hof wrs! Truthfully I don't care if he's 5th or 1st on some list. He's brought us 2 sb trophies and has a lot left in the tank. Good enough for me

4thand1
05-16-2013, 10:06 PM
And the crazies make their first appearance for a while.

Oh look more personal attacks in response to an argument

surprise surprise

thegreatone
05-16-2013, 10:07 PM
I agree that Eli is like that. He can be great at times and horrible at times. To me on average it makes him very good.As a pure passer standpoint I'd say he's good-very good at times. You just can't disregard the 'it' factor though and IMO that propels him ahead of those qbs. Especially elder manning who is like the complete opposite choke artist extrodenaire(sp?)

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:07 PM
Another reason I put Brady 1 and Eli 2 is the level of talent the rest of the qbs had around them. Rodgers and Drew have always had a sick arsenal of offensive weapons. The other manning had 2...TWO future hof wrs! Truthfully I don't care if he's 5th or 1st on some list. He's brought us 2 sb trophies and has a lot left in the tank. Good enough for me
Well when you look at Peyton you have to consider 2 things. What happened to them when he got hurt. (The team fell apart) and then what happened in Denver with 2 second year WR's when he went there., in a new offense. (his usual great productivity).
No sir...Peyton is flat great. The group of Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees are pretty much in a class by themselves. We can argue about where our boy would fall after that, but those 4 are pretty much the best in the league.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:09 PM
As a pure passer standpoint I'd say he's good-very good at times. You just can't disregard the 'it' factor though and IMO that propels him ahead of those qbs. Especially elder manning who is like the complete opposite choke artist extrodenaire(sp?)
The "it" factor is definitely a consideration and Eli has shown it. But he's also played horribly in some huge, must win games as well. Again, up one day and down the next. The ups are great but the downs are frustrating.

4thand1
05-16-2013, 10:09 PM
Colts had 11 wins in 2012 compared to 10 in Peyton's last season there.

Doesn't look like they fell apart to me.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:36 PM
Colts had 11 wins in 2012 compared to 10 in Peyton's last season there.

Doesn't look like they fell apart to me.
Huh?
They had the first pick in the draft. Don't think you get that with 11 wins.

thegreatone
05-16-2013, 10:45 PM
Well when you look at Peyton you have to consider 2 things. What happened to them when he got hurt. (The team fell apart) and then what happened in Denver with 2 second year WR's when he went there., in a new offense. (his usual great productivity).
No sir...Peyton is flat great. The group of Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees are pretty much in a class by themselves. We can argue about where our boy would fall after that, but those 4 are pretty much the best in the league.good point. I'd still rather have Eli in a big game over Peyton.

4thand1
05-16-2013, 10:47 PM
Huh?
They had the first pick in the draft. Don't think you get that with 11 wins.

Huh? They got 11 wins in 2012 vs 10 in Peyton's last season.

Only thing 2011 proved is that Indy's backup QBs are horrible.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:49 PM
good point. I'd still rather have Eli in a big game over Peyton.
Yeah...I really don't know how I feel about that. Eli is a Giant and I suppose I'd rather have our guy for that reason by itself.
Trying to be objective, in playoff games Peyton has had some of the most prolific offensive performances I've ever seen. The Giants offense with Eli has only scored more than 24 points once. Eli has been clutch in defensive struggles but I've never seen him win a playoff game in a shootout.
It is what it is. He's frustrating with his Jeckle and Hyde thing.

Flip Empty
05-16-2013, 10:50 PM
Yes, everybody knows that fantasy football stats are far more important than winning championships.


You don't get the opportunity to win a championship without "fantasy football" stats. Quarterbacks exist to put points on the board - if they can't, then sorry, no playoffs.


Another reason I put Brady 1 and Eli 2 is the level of talent the rest of the qbs had around them. Rodgers and Drew have always had a sick arsenal of offensive weapons. The other manning had 2...TWO future hof wrs! Truthfully I don't care if he's 5th or 1st on some list. He's brought us 2 sb trophies and has a lot left in the tank. Good enough for me
You don't think Eli has had great talent around him? Plaxico Burress, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Amani Toomer, Jeremy Shockey, Tiki Barber, Ahmad Bradshaw, Brandon Jacobs... These guys don't qualify as great talent? It's hard to waltz into a receiver discussion on here without someone proclaiming Eli's current crop of WRs as either "top 5" or "top 10".

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 10:51 PM
Huh? They got 11 wins in 2012 vs 10 in Peyton's last season.

Only thing 2011 proved is that Indy's backup QBs are horrible.
Can't you just put Good Ol' Morehead on your ignore list?
I would really appreciate it.
Either way it would mean a lot to me if you simply didn't respond to any of my posts any more.

4thand1
05-16-2013, 10:51 PM
Yeah...I really don't know how I feel about that. Eli is a Giant and I suppose I'd rather have our guy for that reason by itself.
Trying to be objective, in playoff games Peyton has had some of the most prolific offensive performances I've ever seen. The Giants offense with Eli has only scored more than 24 points once. Eli has been clutch in defensive struggles but I've never seen him win a playoff game in a shootout.
It is what it is. He's frustrating with his Jeckle and Hyde thing.

Yeah that 3TD 7INT performance in the playoffs of his only SB winning season was perhaps the most legendary run in the history of the league

SweetZombieJesus
05-16-2013, 10:58 PM
And let's be realistic about Eli in 2007. He wasn't anywhere near the player he was in 2011. Had Eli not finished the season strong in 2007 who knows if he'd even be a Giant right now. He had the Giants FO very frustrated up until that point. I'm very happy for him that he won the MVP but that award could have easily gone to Justin Tuck.

Look at Eli's 2007 post season stats.

6 TDs. One INT (that belongs on Steve Smith for bobbling the catch). 3 4th quarter comebacks.

SweetZombieJesus
05-16-2013, 11:00 PM
Whatever.............Eli is fine.

"great in his own way"..... I love you guys.

He's not the textbook Marino type. He's frustrating as hell at times.

But my God have we been blessed with some amazing performances in there. Both NFC Championship Games stick out. You can't just average it out.

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 11:02 PM
Look at Eli's 2007 post season stats.

6 TDs. One INT (that belongs on Steve Smith for bobbling the catch). 3 4th quarter comebacks.
To me what characterizes Eli's playoff success is his protection of the football. In those games, his yardage and TD's are essentially in line with his career averages. Its the Int's (or lack of) that are the difference.
In his poor performances he had been poor at protecting the ball. But he's only had 11 playoff games in 9 seasons. That's really low. Its a small sampling for a guy who's teams have won 2 SB's.
Usually a QB on a successful team plays and wins many more playoff games.

4thand1
05-16-2013, 11:08 PM
Since Eli's first full season, he's played 11 postseason games vs Peyton's 12 and Brady's 15.

Not sure how this qualifies as "really low".

(Big Ben has 14 total playoff games, Rivers 7)

Morehead State
05-16-2013, 11:10 PM
I see that you posted but I have put you on MY ignore list, so I can't see what you wrote.

I'm sure it was insightful though but alas I will never know.

4thand1
05-16-2013, 11:20 PM
11 playoff games in 9 seasons isn't really that low of a sample

Drew Brees only has 9 playoff games in 11 seasons

giantsfan420
05-17-2013, 12:18 AM
11 playoff games in 9 seasons isn't really that low of a sample

Drew Brees only has 9 playoff games in 11 seasonsbam! that just happened.

giantsfan420
05-17-2013, 12:20 AM
Yeah that 3TD 7INT performance in the playoffs of his only SB winning season was perhaps the most legendary run in the history of the leaguelmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if ever any proof was offered that MS just likes to argue, point or no point, that post of his was the evidence...lmao peyton has been consistently avg at best in the postseason

thegreatone
05-17-2013, 01:15 AM
You don't get the opportunity to win a championship without "fantasy football" stats. Quarterbacks exist to put points on the board - if they can't, then sorry, no playoffs.


You don't think Eli has had great talent around him? Plaxico Burress, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Amani Toomer, Jeremy Shockey, Tiki Barber, Ahmad Bradshaw, Brandon Jacobs... These guys don't qualify as great talent? It's hard to waltz into a receiver discussion on here without someone proclaiming Eli's current crop of WRs as either "top 5" or "top 10".He's had decent talent. Hakeem and Cruz are still young and could end up being legends, just to early to tell. Plax had a couple good Seasons for us and I believe would've had many more but, you know. Toomer was solid,dependable, but nothing special. Point is you can't compare anything we've had to a p.manning,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark,edgerin James squad. Not knocking our talent just stating the obvious

Flip Empty
05-17-2013, 01:45 AM
He's had decent talent. Hakeem and Cruz are still young and could end up being legends, just to early to tell. Plax had a couple good Seasons for us and I believe would've had many more but, you know. Toomer was solid,dependable, but nothing special. Point is you can't compare anything we've had to a p.manning,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark,edgerin James squad. Not knocking our talent just stating the obvious

Fair enough.

GCGiant
05-17-2013, 07:22 AM
These rankings are so subjective. There is really no way to accurately measure one person's talent vs another when you consider they are playing with different personnel against different personnel. If it were so easy, why is it that Drew Brees wasn't considered great until he had a few years under his belt as a Saint? Why didn't Tom Brady start in college...or did he? I had no idea who Tom Brady was until Drew Bledsoe got hurt

Now...why is it that some people state their opinion as if it is known fact? Irritates the crap out of me.

The NYG offense has provided "GREAT" moments in history with Eli at QB. To totally dismiss the possibility of him being considered great seems silly to me. Sometimes you wonder if some people are here merely to irritate the crap out of people and don't really mean the things they post. I know I can't be the first person who ever thought that.

Drez
05-17-2013, 07:35 AM
To me what characterizes Eli's playoff success is his protection of the football. In those games, his yardage and TD's are essentially in line with his career averages. Its the Int's (or lack of) that are the difference.
In his poor performances he had been poor at protecting the ball. But he's only had 11 playoff games in 9 seasons. That's really low. Its a small sampling for a guy who's teams have won 2 SB's.
Usually a QB on a successful team plays and wins many more playoff games.Our success of late has spoiled you if you believe that 11 playoff games in 9 years is a low sample.

Delicreep
05-17-2013, 08:41 AM
Ultimately though, Delicreep may be right. The SB's may be enough to sway voters even though he's not a great player. Troy Aikman couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock, but Aikman is in the Hall and Randall isn't.
The SB's mean something to voters. As misguided as that may be.

The HOF may not be what you (or I) think it is.

Aikman had a HOF career, not withstanding his ranking among QB's

Eli's will likely end the same way. His first SB was marked by a win against a heavily favored team on the cusp of something greatness. Eli ended that game being the only QB to ever throw a TD pass in the final 2 minutes when only a TD would do it. The drive itself was marked by a highlight that will be seen until the end of time as one of the top 3 plays in SB history. And MVP.

His second SB win was marked another come from behind win in a year in which he set a record for come from behind wins. Another play that will be seen until the end of time; a pass that just could not have been thrown any better by anyone ever. And a year in which he had the most come from behind wins, he ended it with the biggest win of all. And a second MVP.

Now be honest: in 2007, your heart sank when NE scored with a little over 2 minutes to go. 4 years later, you were happy Eli had the ball in his hands. Brady said he didn't want that to happen because he knew what Eli could do. Collinsworth actually laughed and said some version of "hear we go again".

Both games themselves are seen as top 10 SB's of all time, and 2007 could be #1.

It's all very compelling, and has nothing to do with being elite.

And yes...team game and all that. I understand and agree completely with all that.

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 10:11 AM
Look at Eli's 2007 post season stats.

6 TDs. One INT (that belongs on Steve Smith for bobbling the catch). 3 4th quarter comebacks.

No doubt, and I acknowledged that he finished the season strong. He cut down on his mental errors and was the beneficiary of a little luck. But let's be honest, if Asante catches that wounded duck at the end of the game, the lasting image of Eli would not be pretty.

Flip Empty
05-17-2013, 10:15 AM
But let's be honest, if Asante catches that wounded duck at the end of the game, the lasting image of Eli would not be pretty.
You could bring up similar instances for every game, though.

Eli didn't get picked off, and that's all that matters.

Joe Morrison
05-17-2013, 10:19 AM
No doubt, and I acknowledged that he finished the season strong. He cut down on his mental errors and was the beneficiary of a little luck. But let's be honest, if Asante catches that wounded duck at the end of the game, the lasting image of Eli would not be pretty.
And if Pigs fly, cmon man, it is what it is, Eli has proven himself, last year with the worst rushing offense in the league he still kept them in contention right to the end.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 10:48 AM
And if Pigs fly, cmon man, it is what it is, Eli has proven himself, last year with the worst rushing offense in the league he still kept them in contention right to the end.

Eli was also part of the problem last year

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 10:52 AM
Eli was also part of the problem last yearLast year, not last season.

Manning
05-17-2013, 11:10 AM
I think it's tough to compare QBs because they are on different teams and different systems. I might be biased but I think Eli plays in a much tougher offensive system compared to Tom Brady. I think he plays in the toughest system when compared to the other top QBs in the league. Eli has to throw down field more than Brady, whom is able to dink and dunk. Who knows if either QB would be as successful as the other.

Look at these stats:
Tom Brady threw it from 1-5 yards 32% of the time
Drew Brees threw it from 1-5 yards 30% of the time
Aaron Rodgers threw it from 1-5 yards 37% of the time
RGIII threw it from 1-5 yards 25% of the time
Eli threw it from 1-5 yards 21.7% of the time.

Those short passes are way more successful than any other passes. I think we could conservatively say that passes up to 5 yards from the line of scrimmage result in about a 80% completion percentage. If Aaron Rodgers throws the ball 550 times on a season, he is is throwing in the 5 yard range 204 times. Eli on the other hand only passes in this range 119 times. That's a huge stat booster. I'm not saying this to argue that Eli better than anyone else, but to argue that it's very hard to compare QBs when they are heavily reliant on their teams and systems,

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:12 PM
Good to see frauds like Ben and Rivers not being mentioned anymore by anyone nowadays. I still can't believe people rank Brady over Peyton. There isn't one thing that Brady is better at in his position.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:15 PM
Good to see frauds like Ben and Rivers not being mentioned anymore by anyone nowadays. I still can't believe people rank Brady over Peyton. There isn't one thing that Brady is better at in his position.He's better at not being one and done..

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 12:17 PM
You could bring up similar instances for every game, though.

Eli didn't get picked off, and that's all that matters.

In the end yes, but the fact remains that he served up a duck on that last drive and we were very lucky the defender blew it. It happened, and I'm just bringing it up as it relates to some of the comments that have been made in this thread.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:19 PM
Good to see frauds like Ben and Rivers not being mentioned anymore by anyone nowadays. I still can't believe people rank Brady over Peyton. There isn't one thing that Brady is better at in his position.

Clutch performances- Brady is always on point in the clutch, even in the last SB despite the pick he was on his game. Peyton has come up empty a few times in crucial playoff games over his career.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 12:20 PM
Last year, not last season.

What?

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 12:22 PM
And if Pigs fly, cmon man, it is what it is, Eli has proven himself, last year with the worst rushing offense in the league he still kept them in contention right to the end.



Eli proved in 2011 what kind of QB he can be. Eli wasn't that guy in 2007, that's all I'm saying.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:23 PM
I think it's tough to compare QBs because they are on different teams and different systems. I might be biased but I think Eli plays in a much tougher offensive system compared to Tom Brady. I think he plays in the toughest system when compared to the other top QBs in the league. Eli has to throw down field more than Brady, whom is able to dink and dunk. Who knows if either QB would be as successful as the other.

Look at these stats:
Tom Brady threw it from 1-5 yards 32% of the time
Drew Brees threw it from 1-5 yards 30% of the time
Aaron Rodgers threw it from 1-5 yards 37% of the time
RGIII threw it from 1-5 yards 25% of the time
Eli threw it from 1-5 yards 21.7% of the time.

Those short passes are way more successful than any other passes. I think we could conservatively say that passes up to 5 yards from the line of scrimmage result in about a 80% completion percentage. If Aaron Rodgers throws the ball 550 times on a season, he is is throwing in the 5 yard range 204 times. Eli on the other hand only passes in this range 119 times. That's a huge stat booster. I'm not saying this to argue that Eli better than anyone else, but to argue that it's very hard to compare QBs when they are heavily reliant on their teams and systems,

Great point. You definitely will experience more miscommunications that lead to incompletions and interceptions in our Option Read offense, which is called very aggressively with a focus on the deep ball, than in most other systems.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:27 PM
Clutch performances- Brady is always on point in the clutch, even in the last SB despite the pick he was on his game. Peyton has come up empty a few times in crucial playoff games over his career.I remember Peyton coming through with a TD late in the 4th quarter vs the Pats in 06. I don't remember Brady driving his team for a game winning TD late in the 4th Q in any playoff game.

Brady is clutch when his team needs a FG in a tie or close game, i'll give you that. But nowadays, half the league can probably do it too. Even Matt Ryan pulled that feat off last year.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:28 PM
He's had decent talent. Hakeem and Cruz are still young and could end up being legends, just to early to tell. Plax had a couple good Seasons for us and I believe would've had many more but, you know. Toomer was solid,dependable, but nothing special. Point is you can't compare anything we've had to a p.manning,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark,edgerin James squad. Not knocking our talent just stating the obvious

Harrison and Wayne- 2 All Pro quality receivers, say nothing more.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:31 PM
I remember Peyton coming through with a TD late in the 4th quarter vs the Pats in 06. I don't remember Brady driving his team for a game winning TD late in the 4th Q in any playoff game.

Brady is clutch when his team needs a FG in a tie or close game, i'll give you that. But nowadays, half the league can probably do it too. Even Matt Ryan pulled that feat off last year.

Manning has had some awful performances in the playoffs. Brady has rarely been anything less than good. Whether he drove them to a field goal or a TD is irrelevant. They won the game and that's the goal.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:31 PM
Eli proved in 2011 what kind of QB he can be. Eli wasn't that guy in 2007, that's all I'm saying.The biggest difference between 07 and 11 for Eli were his WR. Once he got WR who can actually get some separation, his numbers improved. I think he was always just as good but getting rid of guys like Shockey and Burress and playing with team guys like Nicks and Cruz made a huge difference.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:36 PM
Manning has had some awful performances in the playoffs. Brady has rarely been anything less than good. Whether he drove them to a field goal or a TD is irrelevant. They won the game and that's the goal.It is relevant in my eyes. Leading a team to a game winning TD is more clutch than having your kicker do the work. Brady has had his fair share of poor playoff games, some epic chokes and single handedly losing some games as well.

He was no where to be found in Baltimore in 10, threw 3 picks 1 TD in an AFC championship game in 08 only to get bailed out by his stellar defense vs the Chargers, getting picked by Bailey late in a denver game. Brady is not immortal.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:37 PM
The biggest difference between 07 and 11 for Eli were his WR. Once he got WR who can actually get some separation, his numbers improved. I think he was always just as good but getting rid of guys like Shockey and Burress and playing with team guys like Nicks and Cruz made a huge difference.He would tell you himself he wasn't as good. Hell he said so himself in America's Game how while he thought he was in Tom Brady's class, he definitely needed to work and improve on his game.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:39 PM
It is relevant in my eyes. Leading a team to a game winning TD is more clutch than having your kicker do the work. Brady has had his fair share of poor playoff games, some epic chokes and single handedly losing some games as well.He was no where to be found in Baltimore in 10, threw 3 picks 1 TD in an AFC championship game in 08 only to get bailed out by his stellar defense vs the Chargers, getting picked by Bailey late in a denver game. Brady is not immortal.Nobody is saying he is, but you can't pick the bad games to define his career and ignore Eli's bad games.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:40 PM
The biggest difference between 07 and 11 for Eli were his WR. Once he got WR who can actually get some separation, his numbers improved. I think he was always just as good but getting rid of guys like Shockey and Burress and playing with team guys like Nicks and Cruz made a huge difference.

Cruz drops just as many as Shocks or Burress ever did.

FYI Shockey was the king of getting separation. Burress wasn't bad either.

The real difference was Eli was a 3rd year pro at QB in 2007 and by 2011 he was the unchallenged leader of this team with 4 more years of experience under his belt.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:40 PM
Or you can't blame Eli's bad games on receivers, but put all the blame on Tom Brady. You lose credibility doing so.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:42 PM
He would tell you himself he wasn't as good. Hell he said so himself in America's Game how while he thought he was in Tom Brady's class, he definitely needed to work and improve on his game.I certainly hope he would say that. He most likely did improve from 07-11 but its definitely not as much as guys like roosevelt are making it out to be. There were plenty of factors as to why Eli looked better in 11. Heck he looked better in 2010 playing with scrubs like Hagen and others because they actually were getting separation.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:44 PM
Cruz drops just as many as Shocks or Burress ever did.

FYI Shockey was the king of getting separation. Burress wasn't bad either.

The real difference was Eli was a 3rd year pro at QB in 2007 and by 2011 he was the unchallenged leader of this team with 4 more years of experience under his belt.Every receiver drops passes but when killdrive says shockey can't run a simple route that will affect the QB performance.

Burress would get separation from time to time, just like Toomer. But anyone can tell they didn't get it nearly as much as the younger WR that replaced them.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:45 PM
I certainly hope he would say that. He most likely did improve from 07-11 but its definitely not as much as guys like roosevelt are making it out to be. There were plenty of factors as to why Eli looked better in 11. Heck he looked better in 2010 playing with scrubs like Hagen and others because they actually were getting separation.Well...no, he threw a lot of picks in 2010. Wouldn't say he was playing better then.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:45 PM
It is relevant in my eyes. Leading a team to a game winning TD is more clutch than having your kicker do the work. Brady has had his fair share of poor playoff games, some epic chokes and single handedly losing some games as well.

He was no where to be found in Baltimore in 10, threw 3 picks 1 TD in an AFC championship game in 08 only to get bailed out by his stellar defense vs the Chargers, getting picked by Bailey late in a denver game. Brady is not immortal.

It's still not close. If you compare all of Brady's good and bad performances to Peyton's, Peyton has had more bad games when it counted the most than Brady.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:46 PM
I certainly hope he would say that. He most likely did improve from 07-11 but its definitely not as much as guys like roosevelt are making it out to be. There were plenty of factors as to why Eli looked better in 11. Heck he looked better in 2010 playing with scrubs like Hagen and others because they actually were getting separation.And also so what if he improved as much as Rosie suggested? The bottom line is that he's playing much better and smarter. I don't see a negative in that.

EliDaMANning
05-17-2013, 12:46 PM
Nobody is saying he is, but you can't pick the bad games to define his career and ignore Eli's bad games.Everyone has bad games, Brady has just had quite a bit more in the playoffs than Eli since he's been in the league.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:48 PM
Everyone has bad games, Brady has just had quite a bit more in the playoffs than Eli since he's been in the league.Brady has been in more playoff games..it's a miracle if we even reach the playoffs. Not saying that's any fault of Eli alone.

4thand1
05-17-2013, 12:51 PM
Brady has been in more playoff games..it's a miracle if we even reach the playoffs. Not saying that's any fault of Eli alone.

playoff berth in 5 of the past 8 seasons

that qualifies as a "miracle"?

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:52 PM
playoff berth in 5 of the past 8 seasons that qualifies as a "miracle"?Yes. *Cough* collapses *Cough*

4thand1
05-17-2013, 12:54 PM
Yes. *Cough* collapses *Cough*

well there you have it

odds better than a coin flip are now "miracles".

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 12:55 PM
The biggest difference between 07 and 11 for Eli were his WR. Once he got WR who can actually get some separation, his numbers improved. I think he was always just as good but getting rid of guys like Shockey and Burress and playing with team guys like Nicks and Cruz made a huge difference.

That's a good point. I can see Eli being much more comfortable throwing to Nicks and Cruz.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Every receiver drops passes but when killdrive says shockey can't run a simple route that will affect the QB performance.

Burress would get separation from time to time, just like Toomer. But anyone can tell they didn't get it nearly as much as the younger WR that replaced them.

Nicks and Cruz are upgrades over Toomer and Plax.

Are you suggesting Plax and Toomer are on the same level?

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 12:57 PM
well there you have itodds better than a coin flip are now "miracles".Yep.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 01:00 PM
Plax, Toomer, and Shocks, with Tiki in the backfield was a very good receiving group. The idea that Eli put these sorry saps on his back is not based in reality.

Rudyy
05-17-2013, 01:07 PM
Plax, Toomer, and Shocks, with Tiki in the backfield was a very good receiving group. The idea that Eli put these sorry saps on his back is not based in reality.Exactly. They aren't bums..

4thand1
05-17-2013, 02:14 PM
Exactly. They aren't bums..

I sure won't miss their HOF inductions

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 02:16 PM
That's a good point. I can see Eli being much more comfortable throwing to Nicks and Cruz.


How does that fit in with the theory that Eli makes his receivers??

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 02:41 PM
How does that fit in with the theory that Eli makes his receivers??

I don't subscribe to that theory. Put a group of talented players together that have the right attitude and they will be successful.

I believe Eli has built a rapport with Nicks and Cruz that he never had with guys like Shockey, Burress, Toomer, and Tiki. The offense is undoubtedly Eli's now but it wasn't back then. Nicks and Cruz put in the extra time to build chemistry with Eli which Shockey and Plax would never do.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 03:02 PM
I don't subscribe to that theory. Put a group of talented players together that have the right attitude and they will be successful.

I believe Eli has built a rapport with Nicks and Cruz that he never had with guys like Shockey, Burress, Toomer, and Tiki. The offense is undoubtedly Eli's now but it wasn't back then. Nicks and Cruz put in the extra time to build chemistry with Eli which Shockey and Plax would never do.

This I agree with. I didn't mean to suggest you were in the Eli makes them camp. I think Cruz switching to Condon had something to do with Eli. Eli recognizes Cruz's value to the air game NOT to the exclusion of Nicks but in a totally complementary sense. If Nicks can put in some full seasons these three can be the best show in the League.

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 03:16 PM
This I agree with. I didn't mean to suggest you were in the Eli makes them camp. I think Cruz switching to Condon had something to do with Eli. Eli recognizes Cruz's value to the air game NOT to the exclusion of Nicks but in a totally complementary sense. If Nicks can put in some full seasons these three can be the best show in the League.

Totally agree.

giantsfan420
05-17-2013, 03:56 PM
I don't subscribe to that theory. Put a group of talented players together that have the right attitude and they will be successful.

I believe Eli has built a rapport with Nicks and Cruz that he never had with guys like Shockey, Burress, Toomer, and Tiki. The offense is undoubtedly Eli's now but it wasn't back then. Nicks and Cruz put in the extra time to build chemistry with Eli which Shockey and Plax would never do.so true. one thing i especially disliked about plex and shockey was their refusal to spend the offseason working with eli, they HAD to go to Miami. Iirc, eli even offered to go down there one year bc he knew the importance of that.

and plex wasnt as bad as shockey was at running the wrong routes. that horrendous vikings game yrs ago, shockey running the wrong route resulted in 2 ints. he was supposed to run an out, an instead sat in the zone and curled, which left his defender in the throwing lane to the plays intended target who woulda been open otherwise.
there were always plays like that happening with shockey moreso than plax altho plax too got the rep for that and giving up on plays...i agree that these wrs trump those, not necessarily in a physically athletic way, but in a working better with eli way

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 04:36 PM
so true. one thing i especially disliked about plex and shockey was their refusal to spend the offseason working with eli, they HAD to go to Miami. Iirc, eli even offered to go down there one year bc he knew the importance of that.

and plex wasnt as bad as shockey was at running the wrong routes. that horrendous vikings game yrs ago, shockey running the wrong route resulted in 2 ints. he was supposed to run an out, an instead sat in the zone and curled, which left his defender in the throwing lane to the plays intended target who woulda been open otherwise.
there were always plays like that happening with shockey moreso than plax altho plax too got the rep for that and giving up on plays...i agree that these wrs trump those, not necessarily in a physically athletic way, but in a working better with eli way

I didn't like that as well about those two. I know it wasn't mandatory but how about putting the team first and building a solid relationship with the new quarterback?

I always thought of Plaxico was our offensive MVP in 2007, and one reason was that he always seemed to be able to haul in those errant passes of Eli's. But looking back I never thought that Plaxico might have had a hand in those off target passes simply because Eli might not have known what to expect from him.

Now I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory 100% of the time, but certainly one could make a case for it. I also believe that Eli relied too heavily on Plaxico and often forced passes to him.

Harooni
05-17-2013, 04:39 PM
I sure won't miss their HOF inductions they dont have to be HOF's hell most of them made collins look good. imagine what phil could have done with that receiving cast???

Morehead State
05-17-2013, 04:53 PM
they dont have to be HOF's hell most of them made collins look good. imagine what phil could have done with that receiving cast???
Can you imagine Phil with Nicks and Cruz......Or Plax and Toomer as well?
We'd be an offensive juggernaut!

Flip Empty
05-17-2013, 06:28 PM
Got to love that "Eli makes them" argument...


What?

XLVI and its associated playoff games were played in 2012 - last year.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 06:32 PM
Got to love that "Eli makes them" argument...



XLVI and its associated playoff games were played in 2012 - last year.

LOL my bad, I guess

keyofgmen
05-17-2013, 06:36 PM
Can you imagine Phil with Nicks and Cruz......Or Plax and Toomer as well?
We'd be an offensive juggernaut!

Naa..Parcells would still have pounded the rock...

Joe Morrison
05-17-2013, 06:51 PM
Can you imagine Phil with Nicks and Cruz......Or Plax and Toomer as well?
We'd be an offensive juggernaut!
I really think Eli is way better than Phil Simms, Simms was a fighter and one tough SOB but didn't get blessed with the same talent skill Eli has.

giantsfan420
05-17-2013, 07:03 PM
The HOF may not be what you (or I) think it is.

Aikman had a HOF career, not withstanding his ranking among QB's

Eli's will likely end the same way. His first SB was marked by a win against a heavily favored team on the cusp of something greatness. Eli ended that game being the only QB to ever throw a TD pass in the final 2 minutes when only a TD would do it. The drive itself was marked by a highlight that will be seen until the end of time as one of the top 3 plays in SB history. And MVP.

His second SB win was marked another come from behind win in a year in which he set a record for come from behind wins. Another play that will be seen until the end of time; a pass that just could not have been thrown any better by anyone ever. And a year in which he had the most come from behind wins, he ended it with the biggest win of all. And a second MVP.

Now be honest: in 2007, your heart sank when NE scored with a little over 2 minutes to go. 4 years later, you were happy Eli had the ball in his hands. Brady said he didn't want that to happen because he knew what Eli could do. Collinsworth actually laughed and said some version of "hear we go again".

Both games themselves are seen as top 10 SB's of all time, and 2007 could be #1.

It's all very compelling, and has nothing to do with being elite.

And yes...team game and all that. I understand and agree completely with all that.awesome post. u really have a way of making some of these claims made here look comical. agree with it all

Toadofsteel
05-17-2013, 07:16 PM
I really think Eli is way better than Phil Simms, Simms was a fighter and one tough SOB but didn't get blessed with the same talent skill Eli has.

One thing's for sure: Simms would have done better with the crap OL we've fielded the past two years. I don't know if he could make the precision passes that Eli can, but nobody's questioning his toughness, even when compared to Eli's...

Roosevelt
05-17-2013, 07:17 PM
Naa..Parcells would still have pounded the rock...

Agreed. Parcells was a terrible offensive coach at that time.

zimonami
05-17-2013, 07:20 PM
I didn't like that as well about those two. I know it wasn't mandatory but how about putting the team first and building a solid relationship with the new quarterback?

I always thought of Plaxico was our offensive MVP in 2007, and one reason was that he always seemed to be able to haul in those errant passes of Eli's. But looking back I never thought that Plaxico might have had a hand in those off target passes simply because Eli might not have known what to expect from him.

Now I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory 100% of the time, but certainly one could make a case for it. I also believe that Eli relied too heavily on Plaxico and often forced passes to him.
Yeah, Ro... you're a pro, making millions of dollars. Your heavy commitment is July to maybe mid January. with a few mini camps before July. It's the ultimate 'team' sport. Familiarity of QB and receiver, and familiarity of O Linemen with each other, is critical in a team sport. Eli is willing to put that extra time in. It always amazed me that Shockey and Plax weren't anxious to work with him. All they had to do was name a time and place and Eli would have been there. I love Cruz and Nicks for being anxious to work together. It's a team sport.
Funny you pointed out Plax and 2007. Yes, he was critical in catching passes that someone shorter and with shorter reach wouldn't get. It seemed like ,many were up at 10 ft. I also didn't know if it was Eli being inaccurate, or Plax not being where Plax was supposed to be. But, One of the reasons Eli is able to escape a sack is releasing to a spot, and trusting the receiver to be there. Manningham was terrible... caused many INT's. Plax was always in the neighborhood, so I think Eli released it early, kept it high knowing Plax's reach, and Plax was always near the right neighborhood and made the catch. I always marvelled at Plax's good hands because his arms always seemed so stiff... not relaxed. But, he could go get it whether it was at his feet, or sky high.

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 07:45 PM
I didn't like that as well about those two. I know it wasn't mandatory but how about putting the team first and building a solid relationship with the new quarterback?

I always thought of Plaxico was our offensive MVP in 2007, and one reason was that he always seemed to be able to haul in those errant passes of Eli's. But looking back I never thought that Plaxico might have had a hand in those off target passes simply because Eli might not have known what to expect from him.

Now I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory 100% of the time, but certainly one could make a case for it. I also believe that Eli relied too heavily on Plaxico and often forced passes to him.

I think the theory is hog wash, but your last statement is closest to the truth. Eli's QB play has evolved over the years, but he always targets his favorite receivers, even when they are not open. He over-targeted Plax, then SS, and now Nicks. Nnow he does it way less than how bad he was with Plax. He's just a much better QB than he was in 2007, though last year he regressed.

giantsfan420
05-17-2013, 09:15 PM
ah, eli2plax was beautiful tho. for a multi year span, they had the most qb to wr tds in the NFL...it was awesome watching that. and i think, based on what we see with eli now, that maybe it wasnt even inaccuracy when eli was throwing to plax high, maybe it was eli understanding that it was the only area plax was the only one capable of making the catch...he does that with pretty much every other type of downfield throw so...

Flip Empty
05-17-2013, 10:10 PM
based on what we see with eli now, that maybe it wasnt even inaccuracy when eli was throwing to plax high, maybe it was eli understanding that it was the only area plax was the only one capable of making the catch...he does that with pretty much every other type of downfield throw so...
Well, Accorsi said in his scouting report that Eli throws high when he's inaccurate - we saw a bit of that last season.

Hah, just re-read it to make sure I'd referenced it correctly; had to laugh at this:


In shotgun on most plays and his only running option is a draw…

4thand1
05-17-2013, 10:49 PM
Can you imagine Phil with Nicks and Cruz......Or Plax and Toomer as well?
We'd be an offensive juggernaut!

Maybe with a different receiving core, he wouldn't have gone TD-less in 6 out of his 10 playoff games

zimonami
05-17-2013, 10:55 PM
Can you imagine Phil with Nicks and Cruz......Or Plax and Toomer as well?
We'd be an offensive juggernaut!
Most can't remember nor understand just how average, or below average Phil's receivers were for all of his career. Bavaro was his one All -star. The rest were smurfs, like McConkey, bobby Johnson, Jimmy Robinson, Steven Baker. In his early years he had a 6'3" Ernest Grey. Too bad Grey could only hold on to 1 out of every 2 passes in his hands. He dropped more 3rd down passes than any WR I can ever remember.

Astorian
05-18-2013, 01:41 PM
Most can't remember nor understand just how average, or below average Phil's receivers were for all of his career. Bavaro was his one All -star. The rest were smurfs, like McConkey, bobby Johnson, Jimmy Robinson, Steven Baker. In his early years he had a 6'3" Ernest Grey. Too bad Grey could only hold on to 1 out of every 2 passes in his hands. He dropped more 3rd down passes than any WR I can ever remember.I believe you're referring to Stacey Robinson, not Jimmy.

gumby74
05-18-2013, 03:47 PM
Most can't remember nor understand just how average, or below average Phil's receivers were for all of his career. Bavaro was his one All -star. The rest were smurfs, like McConkey, bobby Johnson, Jimmy Robinson, Steven Baker. In his early years he had a 6'3" Ernest Grey. Too bad Grey could only hold on to 1 out of every 2 passes in his hands. He dropped more 3rd down passes than any WR I can ever remember.

they weren't just average. they were terrible. Baker was above average. But McConkey was crap. The guy opposite of Baker was ok too. Ingram.

zimonami
05-18-2013, 03:56 PM
I believe you're referring to Stacey Robinson, not Jimmy.
Yup, TY Astorian... Jimmy was after Phil's time

NYGdraftMIND
05-18-2013, 05:09 PM
Yeah, that argument would work out fantastic if it were not for the fact that Eli has won 2 rings with 2 entirely different crops of wideouts. No one on the list elevates his entire offense more than #10. You can make the argument for Rodgers simply due to the fact he's the best qb in the game, but Eli and those stats imo back my claim up.

good thought,

No sold on rodgers, I just think he thrives in that spread system. Eli has become better at spreading the ball around thus making no name TE's better and an UDFA receiver a household name. Don't care to much for ranking as I feel its more opinion based sprinkled in with some facts/statistics to justify the claim. I say this because if the raking were based on QB% or yards then hate to say it but Romo belongs somewhere in there.

NYGdraftMIND
05-18-2013, 05:22 PM
And let's be realistic about Eli in 2007. He wasn't anywhere near the player he was in 2011. Had Eli not finished the season strong in 2007 who knows if he'd even be a Giant right now. He had the Giants FO very frustrated up until that point. I'm very happy for him that he won the MVP but that award could have easily gone to Justin Tuck.

.
I think when most giants fans talk about the 2007 season. They only compare the big game to whether eli was good or not, but they forget the first game against new england the game against the cowboys, the game against tampa and the Ice bowl. out of those games Eli threw for 8 TD's / 1 Int / 853 yards / 66% completion rate average over all those games. His fans severely underestimate him, because he probably not the most photogenic player or puts up gaudy regular season numbers like those aerial attack offenses like GB/DAL.
As long as he wins when it matters thats what makes or breaks a QB in this league, players give great season performances that fills the seats in the reuglar season, but the stadium is empty come the first round of the playoffs.

4thand1
05-18-2013, 05:28 PM
Romo - the MVP of October and November

gumby74
05-18-2013, 05:47 PM
Romo - the MVP of October and November

people rag on romo too much. He's very good.

Rudyy
05-18-2013, 05:52 PM
people rag on romo too much. He's very good.Who said otherwise?

giants8493
05-18-2013, 06:02 PM
Who said otherwise?I did. His **** is ***.

Rudyy
05-18-2013, 06:08 PM
I did. His **** is ***.Oh.

Flip Empty
05-18-2013, 06:15 PM
good thought,

No sold on rodgers, I just think he thrives in that spread system. Eli has become better at spreading the ball around thus making no name TE's better and an UDFA receiver a household name.
Isn't every quarterback a product of the system he plays in? Coaches cater it toward their guy's strength.

Eli has a great deep ball so guess what - he plays in a system which places emphasis on hitting WRs deep. That's a system and Eli's flourished i it.

NYGdraftMIND
05-18-2013, 06:37 PM
Isn't every quarterback a product of the system he plays in? Coaches cater it toward their guy's strength.

Eli has a great deep ball so guess what - he plays in a system which places emphasis on hitting WRs deep. That's a system and Eli's flourished i it.
No.
Eli was in a predominantly run first offense coming into the league until he showed that he could handle the rigors of a pass oriented offense, that plus the league was switching to pass friendly anyway. When I say product of the system and talk about Rodgers, you look att the options he has, how many times he takes the snap under center vs in the shotgun, run vs. passing plays on certain down and distances. he is always put in favorable positions to rack and stack the stats, Eli gets a shotgun draw call on 2nd and 10, he can change it yes depending on what he see's but that is a different discussion, one which I dare not invoke, seeing the trend on this particular board.

Eli flourishes in a no huddle, well that is what we would like to think because he is at his best in it from what we have saw thus far. The system doesn't cater tho his strenght, The system is built around the coaches philosophy and as pieces come in, it is adjusted, but not devitated from, to match what the team has.

Rodgers said last year he can do it without a running game because well... he can! that's the system is built for aerial power, Rodgers has a cannon arm and a above average- good line in-front of him he is extremely capable at spreading the ball around. Matt Flynn stepped in and put up the same if not better numbers in 2 games. Matt cassel stepped in took the pats to the playoffs when Brady got injured, he put up Brady numbers that year too. What are both Matt's doing now in a different system? This is just my line of thinking, put Eli in a GB offense scheme and he will give you the high season yards totals as well.

Flip Empty
05-18-2013, 07:35 PM
No.
Eli was in a predominantly run first offense coming into the league until he showed that he could handle the rigors of a pass oriented offense, that plus the league was switching to pass friendly anyway. When I say product of the system and talk about Rodgers, you look att the options he has, how many times he takes the snap under center vs in the shotgun, run vs. passing plays on certain down and distances. he is always put in favorable positions to rack and stack the stats, Eli gets a shotgun draw call on 2nd and 10, he can change it yes depending on what he see's but that is a different discussion, one which I dare not invoke, seeing the trend on this particular board.

Eli flourishes in a no huddle, well that is what we would like to think because he is at his best in it from what we have saw thus far. The system doesn't cater tho his strenght, The system is built around the coaches philosophy and as pieces come in, it is adjusted, but not devitated from, to match what the team has.

Rodgers said last year he can do it without a running game because well... he can! that's the system is built for aerial power, Rodgers has a cannon arm and a above average- good line in-front of him he is extremely capable at spreading the ball around. Matt Flynn stepped in and put up the same if not better numbers in 2 games. Matt cassel stepped in took the pats to the playoffs when Brady got injured, he put up Brady numbers that year too. What are both Matt's doing now in a different system? This is just my line of thinking, put Eli in a GB offense scheme and he will give you the high season yards totals as well.
"Eli was in a predominantly run first offense coming into the league until he showed that he could handle the rigors of a pass oriented offense"
You just laid out how the coaches catered the system toward's Eli's strength.

Eli made only 16 fewer pass attempts than Rodgers last season - safe to say they're both in pass-happy, aerial attack offenses.

"Rodgers has a cannon arm and a above average- good line in-front of him he is extremely capable at spreading the ball around."
Again, catering the system to the quarterback's strengths.
Above average line? Rodgers was under siege all season yet he still clocked 39 touchdowns to 8 interceptions.

In regards to Cassel - Belichick reigned back the team's offense so he didn't have to do what Brady did. To suggest that 3600 yards and 21 touchdowns (Cassel's numbers for that season) are "Brady numbers" is strange, especially considering Brady threw 50 touchdowns the year before.
Cassel leading the Patriots to the playoffs? No. The Dolphins won the division that year. That season represents the only time the Patrots have missed the playoffs since 2003.

Flynn - yep, good performance.

gumby74
05-18-2013, 09:10 PM
Who said otherwise? pretty much everyone. all of a sudden he's not a franchise level qb etc etc. He's a choker etc. I disagree.

Rudyy
05-18-2013, 09:12 PM
pretty much everyone. all of a sudden he's not a franchise level qb etc etc. He's a choker etc. I disagree.Well he is a choker lol, but I agree he is a good quarterback.

B&RWarrior
05-18-2013, 10:00 PM
good thought,

No sold on rodgers, I just think he thrives in that spread system. Eli has become better at spreading the ball around thus making no name TE's better and an UDFA receiver a household name. Don't care to much for ranking as I feel its more opinion based sprinkled in with some facts/statistics to justify the claim. I say this because if the raking were based on QB% or yards then hate to say it but Romo belongs somewhere in there.

Not sold on Rodgers? But you are sold on Eli? Every great QB plays in a system that they thrive in. I don't think he made Cruz, and all of those great catches that Cruz made great because of his YAC attest to this.

You make a great point about Romo. The truth be told is he looks better than Eli much of the time, just not when it counts the most.

Roosevelt
05-18-2013, 10:49 PM
I think when most giants fans talk about the 2007 season. They only compare the big game to whether eli was good or not, but they forget the first game against new england the game against the cowboys, the game against tampa and the Ice bowl. out of those games Eli threw for 8 TD's / 1 Int / 853 yards / 66% completion rate average over all those games. His fans severely underestimate him, because he probably not the most photogenic player or puts up gaudy regular season numbers like those aerial attack offenses like GB/DAL.
As long as he wins when it matters thats what makes or breaks a QB in this league, players give great season performances that fills the seats in the reuglar season, but the stadium is empty come the first round of the playoffs.

If what you said was true the last game of the regular season wouldn't be part of "The Road to Super Bowl XLII" DVD set. It was that game that propelled us with each subsequent game being part of a journey that culminated in one of the most unbelievable upsets in SB history.

But despite all that Eli has proven that he is still inconsistent. That is why he is underestimated as you say. Just like our team, we never know which Eli is going to show up on Sunday.

B&RWarrior
05-18-2013, 10:54 PM
If what you said was true the last game of the regular season wouldn't be part of "The Road to Super Bowl XLII" DVD set. It was that game that propelled us with each subsequent game being part of a journey that culminated in one of the most unbelievable upsets in SB history.

But despite all that Eli has proven that he is still inconsistent. That is why he is underestimated as you say. Just like our team, we never know which Eli is going to show up on Sunday.

I can not believe you gave a serious reply to a guy that said "His fans severely underestimate him, because he probably not the most photogenic player..."

Drez
05-18-2013, 10:59 PM
I can not believe you gave a serious reply to a guy that said "His fans severely underestimate him, because he probably not the most photogenic player..."Are you saying people don't take Eli as seriously because he looks like a goofball?

NYGdraftMIND
05-18-2013, 11:00 PM
Not sold on Rodgers? But you are sold on Eli? Every great QB plays in a system that they thrive in. I don't think he made Cruz, and all of those great catches that Cruz made great because of his YAC attest to this.

You make a great point about Romo. The truth be told is he looks better than Eli much of the time, just not when it counts the most.

When you talk about Elite QB's, I think the term is defined differently by each era. It is unfair to compare a present day QB to a past legend and then contrast who is elite and who isn't, you also have to factor in scheme. Eli just opened up into this passer friendly scheme and is getting better by the year at it. The scheme rodgers plays it is built to rack up high yards and score quick and not let off the gas. Once we are up comfortably we run the ball, Put Eli in that scheme and I think he would do the same, take Rodgers out of that scheme and I don't think he would, but hey that's my opinion in the matter, what I watching the games tells me such, but that's the great thing about football, everyone subscribes to their own perceptions of what they see and opinions are never wrong or right.

B&RWarrior
05-18-2013, 11:04 PM
Are you saying people don't take Eli as seriously because he looks like a goofball?

Read the thread. NYGDraftMIND made the comment, that's why it's in quotes. Once I read that I couldn't take anything else he/she said seriously.

B&RWarrior
05-18-2013, 11:05 PM
When you talk about Elite QB's, I think the term is defined differently by each era. It is unfair to compare a present day QB to a past legend and then contrast who is elite and who isn't, you also have to factor in scheme. Eli just opened up into this passer friendly scheme and is getting better by the year at it. The scheme rodgers plays it is built to rack up high yards and score quick and not let off the gas. Once we are up comfortably we run the ball, Put Eli in that scheme and I think he would do the same, take Rodgers out of that scheme and I don't think he would, but hey that's my opinion in the matter, what I watching the games tells me such, but that's the great thing about football, everyone subscribes to their own perceptions of what they see and opinions are never wrong or right.

Different eras? What you talking about Willis?

Roosevelt
05-18-2013, 11:14 PM
I can not believe you gave a serious reply to a guy that said "His fans severely underestimate him, because he probably not the most photogenic player..."

lol. Well, that was the only comment he made that was true.

http://biggiesplace.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/eli-face-11.jpg

NYGdraftMIND
05-18-2013, 11:21 PM
"Eli was in a predominantly run first offense coming into the league until he showed that he could handle the rigors of a pass oriented offense"
You just laid out how the coaches catered the system toward's Eli's strength.

Eli made only 16 fewer pass attempts than Rodgers last season - safe to say they're both in pass-happy, aerial attack offenses.

"Rodgers has a cannon arm and a above average- good line in-front of him he is extremely capable at spreading the ball around."
Again, catering the system to the quarterback's strengths.
Above average line? Rodgers was under siege all season yet he still clocked 39 touchdowns to 8 interceptions.

In regards to Cassel - Belichick reigned back the team's offense so he didn't have to do what Brady did. To suggest that 3600 yards and 21 touchdowns (Cassel's numbers for that season) are "Brady numbers" is strange, especially considering Brady threw 50 touchdowns the year before.
Cassel leading the Patriots to the playoffs? No. The Dolphins won the division that year. That season represents the only time the Patrots have missed the playoffs since 2003.

Flynn - yep, good performance.

- I laid out how the coaching system changed with the times, If I would of laid out how the coaches catered the system to Eli's strengths, then Eli would of started his system in a high powered aerial attack. I am pretty sure the giants knew Eli had a good arm at the combine.

yes, like I said the league switched to a pass happy league. How often do we go into 3 and 4 receiver sets? GB does 3-4 receiver sets almost every other snap if not every snap. The run a spread offense which is way more different than what we run, Like is said put Eli in that offense and the numbers will most likely be identical. And I am glad you brought that up , so 16 fewer and only 347 yards difference? Isn't that like one good game? surprising he keeps so close when the offense is not spreading the defense thin with all the options on the field and lets not even begin to factor in drop balls, plus the fact that Nicks has been injured.

Yes Green bays Line is above average, just like Eli's line.

And brady has never come close to 50 again there after and before that year his highest total was 28. Lets just say that 2007 was a year for the pats the took everyone by surprise with the addition of moss. Belicheck did the same thing for Brady when he took over for Bledsoe, and then opened thing up as the game progressed, that's what good coaches do when their scheme is built to plug and play.

I got my facts mixed up kudos on the correction, they went 11-5 which gets you into the playoffs most years just that year they lost the tie breaker to the ravens i think (that's off the top of my head) and the colts had a 12-4 record for the last wildcard spot.

All in my honest opinion, I am not to sold on Eli either, The only person in this era of QB that I sold on is Peyton manning, cause of his consistency, level of play and ability to raise others around him, the fact that he has success in two different offensive schemes/teams. coming back from surgery, even with his one ring I perosnally put him ahead of rodgers, and brady. But that's just me.

B&RWarrior
05-18-2013, 11:54 PM
- I laid out how the coaching system changed with the times, If I would of laid out how the coaches catered the system to Eli's strengths, then Eli would of started his system in a high powered aerial attack. I am pretty sure the giants knew Eli had a good arm at the combine.

yes, like I said the league switched to a pass happy league. How often do we go into 3 and 4 receiver sets? GB does 3-4 receiver sets almost every other snap if not every snap. The run a spread offense which is way more different than what we run, Like is said put Eli in that offense and the numbers will most likely be identical. And I am glad you brought that up , so 16 fewer and only 347 yards difference? Isn't that like one good game? surprising he keeps so close when the offense is not spreading the defense thin with all the options on the field and lets not even begin to factor in drop balls, plus the fact that Nicks has been injured.

Yes Green bays Line is above average, just like Eli's line.

And brady has never come close to 50 again there after and before that year his highest total was 28. Lets just say that 2007 was a year for the pats the took everyone by surprise with the addition of moss. Belicheck did the same thing for Brady when he took over for Bledsoe, and then opened thing up as the game progressed, that's what good coaches do when their scheme is built to plug and play.

I got my facts mixed up kudos on the correction, they went 11-5 which gets you into the playoffs most years just that year they lost the tie breaker to the ravens i think (that's off the top of my head) and the colts had a 12-4 record for the last wildcard spot.

All in my honest opinion, I am not to sold on Eli either, The only person in this era of QB that I sold on is Peyton manning, cause of his consistency, level of play and ability to raise others around him, the fact that he has success in two different offensive schemes/teams. coming back from surgery, even with his one ring I perosnally put him ahead of rodgers, and brady. But that's just me.

Dude, you are way off base on everything! You have provided some good laughs though.

KG does not now nor has he ever ran a run-oriented offense. Even balance is the closest he's com to a run oriented attack and that was when our run blocking was the best in the league, even then our passing game(ranked 5th) was on par with our running game- ranked #1 (2008).

AR's line isn't that great, coupled with the fact that he has a habit of holding on to the ball way longer than most QB's.

You saved the best for last when you said, "The only person in this era of QB that I sold on is Peyton manning, cause of his consistency, level of play and ability to raise others around him, the fact that he has success in two different offensive." Brees, Brady, AR, all below Peyton? Which of these QBs has had the least talented receiving core? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which had the best? Hint- It starts with a P. Which of these QB's played in 2 truly different systems? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which one of these QBs is the most consistent winner and performer? Hint- it's not Pey- ahhhh you get the point.

NYGdraftMIND
05-19-2013, 01:13 AM
Dude, you are way off base on everything! You have provided some good laughs though.

KG does not now nor has he ever ran a run-oriented offense. Even balance is the closest he's com to a run oriented attack and that was when our run blocking was the best in the league, even then our passing game(ranked 5th) was on par with our running game- ranked #1 (2008).

AR's line isn't that great, coupled with the fact that he has a habit of holding on to the ball way longer than most QB's.

You saved the best for last when you said, "The only person in this era of QB that I sold on is Peyton manning, cause of his consistency, level of play and ability to raise others around him, the fact that he has success in two different offensive." Brees, Brady, AR, all below Peyton? Which of these QBs has had the least talented receiving core? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which had the best? Hint- It starts with a P. Which of these QB's played in 2 truly different systems? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which one of these QBs is the most consistent winner and performer? Hint- it's not Pey- ahhhh you get the point.

your saying that brady, AR, and Brees all had a horrible receiving cores?
What Peyton ran in Indy vs. what he ran in Denver are two different concepts. completely different.
Peyton manning is not consistent? he puts his team over 10 wins every year for a decade if I am not mistaken. Consistent 4k+ passer. He is not a field general making multiple adjustment at the line getting everyone from center to wide out reset.
We we not a run first offense under coughlin?
I never said AR line was great it was definitely better than what Eli had and above average.
And my opinions are way off base.

I made you laugh, cool story. No wonder people are hesitant to speak their mind on here, people take comments with this elitist attitude like they know everything. Thanks for reminding why I hated talking football on a forum.

have a good one.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 03:13 AM
your saying that brady, AR, and Brees all had a horrible receiving cores?
What Peyton ran in Indy vs. what he ran in Denver are two different concepts. completely different.
Peyton manning is not consistent? he puts his team over 10 wins every year for a decade if I am not mistaken. Consistent 4k+ passer. He is not a field general making multiple adjustment at the line getting everyone from center to wide out reset.
We we not a run first offense under coughlin?
I never said AR line was great it was definitely better than what Eli had and above average.
And my opinions are way off base.

I made you laugh, cool story. No wonder people are hesitant to speak their mind on here, people take comments with this elitist attitude like they know everything. Thanks for reminding why I hated talking football on a forum.

have a good one.

I do call myself Black Madden, and I do possess elite level knowledge of the game. And may I say you will receive no Turducken for your poorly framed arguments. LOL Lighten up dude. A football forum is made to discuss varying opinions. Let's tackle the discussion at hand:

Peyton has had Harrison, Wayne, Garcon, and Clark. In your argument for why Peyton was better than every other QB you said it was because he raised the players around him to another level. He played with perennial Pro Bowler's, arguably the best receiving core in the league at a certain time, as opposed to Brady who has had very mediocre receivers for the majority of his career, except the Moss years.

Denver's offense and Tom Moore's Indy offense are extremely similar. Bellicheck was quoted as saying it was "identical" to the offense he ran in Indy. The idea that Peyton is the only QB to pass the greatness test is just wrong. It's an opinion based on nothing.

In an effort to be sensitive to your feelings I am laughing...on the inside.

giantsfan420
05-19-2013, 03:32 AM
your saying that brady, AR, and Brees all had a horrible receiving cores?
What Peyton ran in Indy vs. what he ran in Denver are two different concepts. completely different.
Peyton manning is not consistent? he puts his team over 10 wins every year for a decade if I am not mistaken. Consistent 4k+ passer. He is not a field general making multiple adjustment at the line getting everyone from center to wide out reset.
We we not a run first offense under coughlin?
I never said AR line was great it was definitely better than what Eli had and above average.
And my opinions are way off base.

I made you laugh, cool story. No wonder people are hesitant to speak their mind on here, people take comments with this elitist attitude like they know everything. Thanks for reminding why I hated talking football on a forum.

have a good one.well to be fair, its pretty much reserved to BnR and a few others (that kinda behavior) and dont worry, we all see the comedy in their responses. the people acting like they are the smartest are usually the ones making the biggest fools of themselves.

giantsfan420
05-19-2013, 03:34 AM
I do call myself Black Madden, and I do possess elite level knowledge of the game. And may I say you will receive no Turducken for your poorly framed arguments. LOL Lighten up dude. A football forum is made to discuss varying opinions. Let's tackle the discussion at hand:

Peyton has had Harrison, Wayne, Garcon, and Clark. In your argument for why Peyton was better than every other QB you said it was because he raised the players around him to another level, He starts off with the best receiving core as opposed to Brady who has had very mediocre receivers for the najority of his career, except the Moss years.

Denver offense and Tom Moore's Indy offense are extremely similar. Bellicheck was quoted as saying it was "identical" to the offense he ran in Indy. The idea that Peyton is the only QB to pass the greatness test is just wrong. It's an opinion based on nothing.lmfao. so in other words, when u say the forum is made to discuss varying opinions, u mean really just urs and any other opinion is "laughable and wrong"? btw I disagree with most of his premises as well, but cant even debate it with him when ur making the comments u make

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 03:56 AM
lmfao. so in other words, when u say the forum is made to discuss varying opinions, u mean really just urs and any other opinion is "laughable and wrong"? btw I disagree with most of his premises as well, but cant even debate it with him when ur making the comments u make

Show me the forum rule that says that I have to agree with anybody's opinion. I never told the guy he had to stop believing Peyton was the only active QB that was proven great. I just think it's wrong and yes, laughable. I didn't make any personal attacks, just pointed out how bad of an argument that was. If you just dismiss Brady, AR, and Brees- all SB winners, and League MVP's (I think Brees has one), I won't mitigate my response to protect your feelings. Should I pretend to understand his logic when I think it's perposterous? Nope- laughable, with all due respect.

giantsfan420
05-19-2013, 04:09 AM
Dude, you are way off base on everything! You have provided some good laughs though.

KG does not now nor has he ever ran a run-oriented offense. Even balance is the closest he's com to a run oriented attack and that was when our run blocking was the best in the league, even then our passing game(ranked 5th) was on par with our running game- ranked #1 (2008).

AR's line isn't that great, coupled with the fact that he has a habit of holding on to the ball way longer than most QB's.

You saved the best for last when you said, "The only person in this era of QB that I sold on is Peyton manning, cause of his consistency, level of play and ability to raise others around him, the fact that he has success in two different offensive." Brees, Brady, AR, all below Peyton? Which of these QBs has had the least talented receiving core? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which had the best? Hint- It starts with a P. Which of these QB's played in 2 truly different systems? Hint- it's not Peyton. Which one of these QBs is the most consistent winner and performer? Hint- it's not Pey- ahhhh you get the point.this comes off like an ******* wrote it, which is why ur getting the responses u do. maybe just dont be so offensive to other peoples opinion. u go around telling people ur schooling them and stuff when r jst stating ur opinion...the whole black madden thing is jst lame and is condescending really

giantsfan420
05-19-2013, 04:12 AM
but i could make a post mocking how you are incorrect bt wont. ill jst talk football. KG and TC have for the most part ran a run first offense. thats just the truth of it. yes, we pass, and often. doesnt mean TC and KG dont want to establish the run. Thats prob even a bigger objective than establishing the pass...and, even tho the league is more pass happy, we still are one of the more run grounded teams.
KG specifically uses the pass to setup the run, so it can be confusing I guess, but absolutely TC has historically been of the mentality that a working run game is necessary.

Joe Morrison
05-19-2013, 09:19 AM
Eli wins in the post season ./ Peyton, not so much, he has one Superbowl Ring and countless failed attempts in the playoffs. Has all the #'s but has the uncanny ability to blow the big ones.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 10:47 AM
Eli wins in the post season ./ Peyton, not so much, he has one Superbowl Ring and countless failed attempts in the playoffs. Has all the #'s but has the uncanny ability to blow the big ones.

Thank you! 10 wins and a choke in the playoffs is his MO.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 10:57 AM
but i could make a post mocking how you are incorrect bt wont. ill jst talk football. KG and TC have for the most part ran a run first offense. thats just the truth of it. yes, we pass, and often. doesnt mean TC and KG dont want to establish the run. Thats prob even a bigger objective than establishing the pass...and, even tho the league is more pass happy, we still are one of the more run grounded teams.
KG specifically uses the pass to setup the run, so it can be confusing I guess, but absolutely TC has historically been of the mentality that a working run game is necessary.

What they want and want we have been are two different things. They want balance. They have never set out to be a run oriented offense. Establishing the run does not mean you're a run oriented offense it means you make the defense play the run. KG is a pass happy offensive coordinator. You may want to research where he first ran our offense and how its' evolved for the Giants.

We want more balance, but as of now we are a pass happy team and we won the SB with a prolific passing game. By no means are we a run oriented offense.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 11:09 AM
this comes off like an ******* wrote it, which is why ur getting the responses u do. maybe just dont be so offensive to other peoples opinion. u go around telling people ur schooling them and stuff when r jst stating ur opinion...the whole black madden thing is jst lame and is condescending really

AHHHHHHH! I see now this is about a past post I made. I'm guessing I told you I schooled you. Seems like a rather benign comment, IMO. How is calling myself Black Madden condescending? At the risk of sounding condescending, maybe you want to look up the word condescending?

You seem pretty upset. Your words have the tone of a man speaking with injured pride. Okay so I didn't school you, I just took you to school. Still too much? It wasn't like a class room schooling it was more like home schooling. I really wanted you to learn. Lets hug it out- virtual style! LOL

Mod_C
05-19-2013, 11:12 AM
AHHHHHHH! I see now this is about a past post I made. I'm guessing I told you I schooled you. Seems like a rather benign comment, IMO. How is calling myself Black Madden condescending? At the risk of sounding condescending, maybe you want to look up the word condescending?

You seem pretty upset. Your words have the tone of a man speaking with injured pride. Okay so I didn't school you, I just took you to school. Still too much? It wasn't like a class room schooling it was more like home schooling. I really wanted you to learn. Lets hug it out- virtual style! LOL

OK, let's get back to the thread.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 11:28 AM
OK, let's get back to the thread.

I don't know where to go when our QB throws for almost over 4,000 yards and 25+ tds for the past 5 years and you say that we are a run oriented offense.

Mod_C
05-19-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't know where to go when our QB throws for almost over 4,000 yards and 25+ tds for the past 5 years and you say that we are a run oriented offense.

While everyone has and is entitled to an opinion, it doesn't make us right. Sometimes it's just best to bask in the knowledge that you are and they aren't. Even if it's not true lol

Buddy333
05-19-2013, 02:43 PM
Peyton Manning does not blow games by himself. He has never really had a great defense to help him out. While QB's get o much credit they also take to much blame.

Hooligans
05-19-2013, 03:13 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22246720/ranking-nfl-qbs-rodgers-brady-peyton-and-brees-are-elites-eli-almost-

Excerpt: "Any time you rank a group of things, people get angry. And when you start ranking NFL quarterbacks and then (stupidly?) throwing labels on them, people get real angry. So be prepared to get mad at the following list of quarterbacks, from best to worst.

Prepared to get especially mad because there's really not a precise way of categorizing guys. There's a group of "elite" quarterbacks up top (my group only features four of them, but it can vary dependent on your preferences), there's another group of quarterbacks who have proven they can win right below that, there's a great crop of "young guns," there's a big slew of veteran quarterbacks stuck in limbo in terms of their future as franchise guys, and there's even a glob of young "put up or shut up" quarterbacks.

I've got them roughly grouped like that below, but the defining criteria for this list is that I've picked, in order with one or two quarterbacks from each team, the signal caller who I think gives me the best chance to win a Super Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) in 2013 if all things -- wideouts, offensive line, defense -- were created equal.It's not a list for building a franchise for the long-term future, it's a list for winning this season. And it's also an indication of how deep and talented the quarterback pool in the NFL really is. Feel free to leave your list in the comments or tell me your thoughts on my list on Twitter @WillBrinson

Elite

1. Aaron Rodgers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/419780/aaron-rodgers), Packers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/GB/green-bay-packers): Rodgers didn't have his best statistical season in 2012 and the Packers didn't climb the mountain, but there's no reason to think of him as anything other than the best quarterback in football. He threw for 4,295 yards, 39 touchdowns and had only eight picks last season. A revamped offensive line and the addition of Eddie Lacy and Johnathan Franklin (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1631945/johnathan-franklin) in the running game should only help him improve.

2. Tom Brady (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741/tom-brady), Patriots (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NE/new-england-patriots): I give Brady the ever-so-slight edge on Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning) here, mainly because I think that if you swapped their situations, Brady could put up some eye-popping numbers. He has Rob Gronkowski (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1244303/rob-gronkowski) and Aaron Hernandez (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1273179/aaron-hernandez), but he's losing Wes Welker (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493735/wes-welker). Danny Amendola (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/516968/danny-amendola) joining New England is nice, but I'm not convinced that swap doesn't end up burning Bill Belichick and Co. Brady's two biggest advantages, though, are health (I'm less worried about him than Manning) and a history of throwing to absolute garbage wideouts and still succeeding.

3. Peyton Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531/peyton-manning), Broncos (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/DEN/denver-broncos): It's almost unfathomable, but Manning nearly had the best season of his career at the age of 36, coming off a few neck surgeries and playing for a new team for the first time in his career. Manning threw for 4,659 yards, 37 touchdowns and 11 interceptions and with Welker coming to Denver, his stats might only get better. This is really 2A and 2B, more than anything else.

4. Drew Brees (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235197/drew-brees), Saints (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NO/new-orleans-saints): You could argue that Brees is higher and maybe he'll be after a year that features a better defense and the return of Sean Payton. Still, Brees threw for more than 5,000 yards for the second-straight season and threw for 43 touchdowns in 2012. His completion percentage (63) was lower and interceptions (19) were higher than you'd like to see from him though.

The next group

5. Eli Manning (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493004/eli-manning), Giants (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/NYG/new-york-giants): Yeah, yeah. You can't spell "Elite" without "Eli." And with his secondSuper Bowl (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/superbowl) ring in 2011, the younger Manning proves he belongs. But I'm cutting the list a little shorter for these purposes, and I feel justified after Eli "only" threw for 3,948 yards and 26 touchdowns (along with 15 interceptions) in a slightly down season that saw the Giants miss the playoffs. I'd still be more than happy riding Manning as my franchise guy." Read more...


These are homer rankings for Eli........Eli comes in around 12th or 13th, which isn't bad at all.

Morehead State
05-20-2013, 08:18 AM
These are homer rankings for Eli........Eli comes in around 12th or 13th, which isn't bad at all.
Even I think that's crazy.

gumby74
05-20-2013, 08:58 AM
While everyone has and is entitled to an opinion, it doesn't make us right. Sometimes it's just best to bask in the knowledge that you are and they aren't. Even if it's not true lol Haha. Too funny.