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View Full Version : Question about our 3rd round DEnd Moore.



BigJ
05-15-2013, 09:45 PM
Are they trying to put him at LB?? I figured we lost Osi and they drafted a dend to fill that void. Some one said he has played lb before but didnt we already go through this with Clint Sintim? Granted he was soft/injured all the time but i dont get y Reese gets guys like Kiwi and Moore and puts them at LB instead of just picking up a REAL LINE BACKER. Not a dend and make him a 43 backer. So back to my question, sorry i had to go off for a second. Are they for sure making him a LB? And how do you guys feel about him becoming a LB when we lost Osi and need another DE not to mention Tuck decline? And y do you guys think reese doesent just get a real linebacker And keep a guy like Moore at DE??

penguinfarmer
05-15-2013, 09:51 PM
They have called him the joker which includes Sam LB and end. And they continue to do this, because they like using remnants of an under front. I do too.

Drez
05-15-2013, 09:55 PM
I'd imagine that with his skill set and physical toosl, they want to use him as a joker, which means he'll rush the passer from both the DE and LB spots. I'd imagine when he's in as a LB, he'll be rushing 98% of the time.

Remember, Moore played as a stand up OLB in a 34 his first 2 years in college, so it's not that unreasonable that we might want to use him in that manner in some packages.

Cool Papa B.
05-15-2013, 10:04 PM
Are they trying to put him at LB?? I figured we lost Osi and they drafted a dend to fill that void. Some one said he has played lb before but didnt we already go through this with Clint Sintim? Granted he was soft/injured all the time but i dont get y Reese gets guys like Kiwi and Moore and puts them at LB instead of just picking up a REAL LINE BACKER. Not a dend and make him a 43 backer. So back to my question, sorry i had to go off for a second. Are they for sure making him a LB? And how do you guys feel about him becoming a LB when we lost Osi and need another DE not to mention Tuck decline? And y do you guys think reese doesent just get a real linebacker And keep a guy like Moore at DE??

They are grooming him to be a hybrid DE/OLB. He won't play much this year except for ST's. Having a DE core of JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, & Ojomo/Trattou gives him the luxury of taking his time and learning this year. They'll have him in the weight room trying to get him to add another 10-15 lbs. of muscle to his frame. 2014 he should be ready to play a lot more at that hybrid role.

B&RWarrior
05-15-2013, 11:41 PM
They are grooming him to be a hybrid DE/OLB. He won't play much this year except for ST's. Having a DE core of JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, & Ojomo/Trattou gives him the luxury of taking his time and learning this year. They'll have him in the weight room trying to get him to add another 10-15 lbs. of muscle to his frame. 2014 he should be ready to play a lot more at that hybrid role.

I don't think he needs to add weight for the joker role, I think he needs to add weight to be a 3 down lineman.

slipknottin
05-15-2013, 11:43 PM
They arent grooming him to be a hybrid, he already IS a hybrid who played joker and DE.

Right now hes a rotational DE. There may be one or two packages where he stands up, thats about it.

ALLnygIN
05-15-2013, 11:54 PM
They are grooming him to be a hybrid DE/OLB. He won't play much this year except for ST's. Having a DE core of JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, & Ojomo/Trattou gives him the luxury of taking his time and learning this year. They'll have him in the weight room trying to get him to add another 10-15 lbs. of muscle to his frame. 2014 he should be ready to play a lot more at that hybrid role.

I dont know maybe you're right, but I think well def see him play more of a role than just special teams.

Cool Papa B.
05-16-2013, 12:16 AM
They arent grooming him to be a hybrid, he already IS a hybrid who played joker and DE.

Right now hes a rotational DE. There may be one or two packages where he stands up, thats about it.

I should have been more specific. They will groom him to be an NFL ready hybrid. He has to get use to the speed of the game and the different looks a QB will show him at that level. We'll see how quick he makes the transition.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 01:48 AM
They are grooming him to be a hybrid DE/OLB. He won't play much this year except for ST's. Having a DE core of JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, & Ojomo/Trattou gives him the luxury of taking his time and learning this year. They'll have him in the weight room trying to get him to add another 10-15 lbs. of muscle to his frame. 2014 he should be ready to play a lot more at that hybrid role.

I see him spelling Tuck at DE, and maybe coming in as the 5th rusher as a stand up edge linebacker.

BigJ
05-16-2013, 03:19 AM
Kind of like Von Miller?? I could be wrong but i feel that's exactly what he does in the 43 he plays in... and if you guys are right i don't mind him at that position. I'm thinking they are trying to make him like they did with kiwi. A normal, stand up 2 down sam lber. If he is gonna be rushing most of the time i like that idea a lot. Thanks for the feed back by the way guys

Sovereign
05-16-2013, 05:15 AM
Yes, when Miller left Texas A&M, Moore took his spot. He won't as good as Miller though, he's a freak. What helps him is that creativeness they use with Dumervil and Miller. He's like a 3-4 rushing OLB like DeMarcus Ware but in a 4-3.

We on the other hand have Perry Fewell whose creativity and adjustments are so terrible that Moore would be wasted as a joker. Make him a DE.

nycsportzfan
05-16-2013, 08:56 AM
Hes gonna play the joker untill he fills out more and becomes permanent DE is all..

Kruunch
05-16-2013, 09:09 AM
Are they trying to put him at LB?? I figured we lost Osi and they drafted a dend to fill that void. Some one said he has played lb before but didnt we already go through this with Clint Sintim? Granted he was soft/injured all the time but i dont get y Reese gets guys like Kiwi and Moore and puts them at LB instead of just picking up a REAL LINE BACKER. Not a dend and make him a 43 backer. So back to my question, sorry i had to go off for a second. Are they for sure making him a LB? And how do you guys feel about him becoming a LB when we lost Osi and need another DE not to mention Tuck decline? And y do you guys think reese doesent just get a real linebacker And keep a guy like Moore at DE??

They're going to try to use him like they've used Kiwi (and are planning to move Kiwi to full time DE). He'll play SAM here and there and move down to DE as part of the rotation.

I wouldn't expect to see a lot of Moore in his first year.

GiantPride13
05-16-2013, 09:13 AM
They have called him the joker which includes Sam LB and end. And they continue to do this, because they like using remnants of an under front. I do too.

I like it too. especially with Moore bc he played this way in College. He played alot of stand up rush "LB" in college. Wasnt a big fan of them doing it with Kiwi bc he was a pure DE, though he did a decent job, moore is better suited for the joker position.

BigJ
05-17-2013, 11:40 AM
They're going to try to use him like they've used Kiwi (and are planning to move Kiwi to full time DE). He'll play SAM here and there and move down to DE as part of the rotation.

I wouldn't expect to see a lot of Moore in his first year. so your the only one saying they are making him a regular LB like Kiwi. Everyones else is sayinh he is going to be used as an extra pass rush. Stand up rushing lb. Thats not what kiwi was. He made the move to play the SAM Linebacker position. As a regular 43 lber. Thats what im hoping we dont do with Moore

Kruunch
05-17-2013, 01:55 PM
so your the only one saying they are making him a regular LB like Kiwi. Everyones else is sayinh he is going to be used as an extra pass rush. Stand up rushing lb. Thats not what kiwi was. He made the move to play the SAM Linebacker position. As a regular 43 lber. Thats what im hoping we dont do with Moore

I'm not the only one saying it ... I'm getting this from the Giants FO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25288/what-theyre-saying-de-damontre-moore

Kiwi isn't a regular linebacker. He moves into the DE rotation quite a bit.

I hope they don't do that with Moore because I think he plays better with this hand in the dirt but wishes and farts and all that.

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 10:47 PM
The way Marc Ross sounded, seems like he'll be a hybrid, but more of an LB than DE:



But he won’t be strictly a linebacker for us. It'll be more of a hybrid role."

Sovereign
05-18-2013, 03:06 AM
And the way Reese sounded the same night he aid that he expects Moore to be "penciled in as a DE." Obviously since the interviews took place like 30 minutes after they drafted him they don't have a solid plan either way.

Hopefully he's not a joker but we'll see.

giantsfan420
05-18-2013, 03:12 AM
Ross and JR have made it clear that the plan is to use him ala the joker role while he fills in his frame as he's only 20 yrs old. Then he'll be a everydown DE, that's what they've said.
the hybrid thing is just to get him on the field ASAP, kinda similar with Kiwi.

giantsfan420
05-18-2013, 03:17 AM
and he hasnt played 4-3 OLB at all yet. i see ppl making that mistake. he was a 3-4 OLB, big difference.

giantsfan420
05-18-2013, 03:18 AM
and complete nonsense that he wont play much this year.

Sovereign
05-18-2013, 03:34 AM
Ross and JR have made it clear that the plan is to use him ala the joker role while he fills in his frame as he's only 20 yrs old. Then he'll be a everydown DE, that's what they've said.
the hybrid thing is just to get him on the field ASAP, kinda similar with Kiwi.

Lol they haven't made sht clear at all...

penguinfarmer
05-18-2013, 08:26 AM
and he hasnt played 4-3 OLB at all yet. i see ppl making that mistake. he was a 3-4 OLB, big difference.

In an under front, it's not that different at all.

Captain Chaos
05-18-2013, 08:35 AM
They arent grooming him to be a hybrid, he already IS a hybrid who played joker and DE.

Right now hes a rotational DE. There may be one or two packages where he stands up, thats about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong slip, the idea is that at age 20 he will grow into a 265-275 lb DE. They'll get him into their pro program and get him to where he needs to be. Lots of potential there!

slipknottin
05-18-2013, 09:36 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong slip, the idea is that at age 20 he will grow into a 265-275 lb DE. They'll get him into their pro program and get him to where he needs to be. Lots of potential there!

Well he will get stronger and add a few pounds just normally. But I'm not sure if they want him to gain 15-20 pounds. He fits quite well into this defense as a 255 pound player

Duckdownman
05-19-2013, 08:45 AM
In an under front, it's not that different at all.

So true. So many people point out the differences between an 4-3 and 3-4OLB yet don't grasp the differences when running an under front.

slipknottin
05-19-2013, 09:08 AM
So true. So many people point out the differences between an 4-3 and 3-4OLB yet don't grasp the differences when running an under front.

Yep. For instance the 49ers run a 4-3 under. They just have 3-4 personnel. Seattle runs a 4-3 under and has mostly 4-3 players and a few hybrid players.

Cowboys will be running the 4-3 under next season and a lot of it will look similar to the 3-4 they used to run

BigJ
05-19-2013, 09:35 PM
I'm not the only one saying it ... I'm getting this from the Giants FO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/25288/what-theyre-saying-de-damontre-moore

Kiwi isn't a regular linebacker. He moves into the DE rotation quite a bit.

I hope they don't do that with Moore because I think he plays better with this hand in the dirt but wishes and farts and all that. well Kiwi was conberted by yhe Giants to play SLB for us as a regular linebacker not a stand up blitzing linebacker. They wanted him to Convert from Dend to be a 43 linebacker anf when they wanted him to blitz they would just put him back at End all his highlights are sacks from the end position. Now with Moore, if they are having him at a stand up position but mostly for blitzing, the Joker position. Thats fine... I just thought they were going to try to do with him what they did with Kiwi and what they tried to do with Clint Sintim. The biggest problem I have with this is we lost Osi and need Dends. I hate that Reese would rather take a defensive ends like kiwi and Sintim and try to make them a linebacker then keeping them at DE and doing the most logical thing such as drafting a LB or picking one up in free agency. It blows my mind that Reese would rather take the time to convert a DE into a regular 43 backer then actually draft one, trade for one, or free agency. Nobody finds that stupid but me???

jomo
05-19-2013, 10:04 PM
Are they trying to put him at LB?? I figured we lost Osi and they drafted a dend to fill that void. Some one said he has played lb before but didnt we already go through this with Clint Sintim? Granted he was soft/injured all the time but i dont get y Reese gets guys like Kiwi and Moore and puts them at LB instead of just picking up a REAL LINE BACKER. Not a dend and make him a 43 backer. So back to my question, sorry i had to go off for a second. Are they for sure making him a LB? And how do you guys feel about him becoming a LB when we lost Osi and need another DE not to mention Tuck decline? And y do you guys think reese doesent just get a real linebacker And keep a guy like Moore at DE??It is always tricky comparing one play to another. Sintim? Who cares! He didn't have the goods at this level, having at least 3 years to prove something. Next man up. Ignore the labels or generalization. Moore can either hunt or he can't. The coaches will give him his shot to do that and hopefully he rises to the challenge. We need help on the defensive side of the ball. Hopefully he is part of the solution.

B&RWarrior
05-20-2013, 12:23 AM
Well he will get stronger and add a few pounds just normally. But I'm not sure if they want him to gain 15-20 pounds. He fits quite well into this defense as a 255 pound player

Do you think he can be a complete 3 down lineman at 255?

Sovereign
05-20-2013, 02:09 AM
Do you think he can be a complete 3 down lineman at 255?

Reese already said he's 260. He's sitll only twenty and without a NFL regimen. The Giants will or rather have to bulk him up to be a 3 down player.

King Sully
05-20-2013, 02:25 AM
Reese already said he's 260. He's sitll only twenty and without a NFL regimen. The Giants will or rather have to bulk him up to be a 3 down player. looking at his frame you can tell he didn't spend much time in the weight room in school, he won't even need to try to bulk up because a full year working out on an nfl regimen he should gain 10 pounds easily.

BigJ
05-20-2013, 02:26 AM
It is always tricky comparing one play to another. Sintim? Who cares! He didn't have the goods at this level, having at least 3 years to prove something. Next man up. Ignore the labels or generalization. Moore can either hunt or he can't. The coaches will give him his shot to do that and hopefully he rises to the challenge. We need help on the defensive side of the ball. Hopefully he is part of the solution. what you mean who cares sintim who cares?? When he came out people thought he would be a beast at lb and was a really high pick to play linebacker in a system he didn't fit. almost seems like Reese will do anything to not waste a draft pick or go out and spend on a linebacker

BigJ
05-20-2013, 02:37 AM
Alls I'm saying is I would rather them bulk this guy up and keep him at Dend and just get a real linebacker for once.. stop saying we need Dends then draft an End and try to make him a line backer. But for the record if they are gonna make him into Linebacker like von miller were he is blitzing all the time I'm all for it. I'm saying don't try to make him into a traditional 43 backer. But we will see what they do hopefully he's not A waste

giantsfan420
05-20-2013, 05:35 AM
In an under front, it's not that different at all.yes it is still between a 3-4 OLB/Under 4-3 OLB and a base 4-3 OLB. Peple were claiming he had played LB (implying he was used as a non pass rushing LB for a period of time) and that simply is not true. Moore has been a pass rusher first and foremost at T A&M. Thats all my point was. the fact its a 4-3 under and he'll be a LB outta that front is irrelevant to my point bc he will still be pass rushing as an OLB in an under front, or a 4-3 base as a DE.
and, tech, an underfront is just positioning the base 4-3 OLB on the line to represent another edge pass rsher, which still is completely diff. than a base 4-3 lb.

the Joker role makes that 4-3 under, so its still way diff than a typical 4-3 OLB like Boley. Moore isnt going to be used as a non pass rushing OLB, and i made my original comment bc some had said he will be used as that and it is fine bc he was used that way at T A&M, and he wasn't. He was a pass rusher first and foremost (but of course would mix it up occasionally and guard the flats, still, hes a pass rusher. its similar to D.Ware, he'll play coverage now n then solely to mix up the OL, not bc they want him covering a TE.

jomo
05-20-2013, 07:58 AM
what you mean who cares sintim who cares?? When he came out people thought he would be a beast at lb and was a really high pick to play linebacker in a system he didn't fit. almost seems like Reese will do anything to not waste a draft pick or go out and spend on a linebackerWe've listened to the argument about Sintim not being utilized properly since he entered the league. What an arogant argument by his team. Imagine this guy is the true revolutionary and not a singe D coordinator knows how to utilize his special talents. LOL

My point actuallly was that comparing player by using the labels attached to them rarely works. They are all individuals with unique skills that don't lend themselves to easy comparison. Primarily those labels never measure heart and competitive fire and football IQ etc.

I wish Sintim well in his search for a HC who understands what a special and unique talent he truly is.

penguinfarmer
05-20-2013, 09:35 AM
In an under front, it's not that different at all.yes it is still between a 3-4 OLB/Under 4-3 OLB and a base 4-3 OLB. Peple were claiming he had played LB (implying he was used as a non pass rushing LB for a period of time) and that simply is not true. Moore has been a pass rusher first and foremost at T A&M. Thats all my point was. the fact its a 4-3 under and he'll be a LB outta that front is irrelevant to my point bc he will still be pass rushing as an OLB in an under front, or a 4-3 base as a DE.
and, tech, an underfront is just positioning the base 4-3 OLB on the line to represent another edge pass rsher, which still is completely diff. than a base 4-3 lb.

the Joker role makes that 4-3 under, so its still way diff than a typical 4-3 OLB like Boley. Moore isnt going to be used as a non pass rushing OLB, and i made my original comment bc some had said he will be used as that and it is fine bc he was used that way at T A&M, and he wasn't. He was a pass rusher first and foremost (but of course would mix it up occasionally and guard the flats, still, hes a pass rusher. its similar to D.Ware, he'll play coverage now n then solely to mix up the OL, not bc they want him covering a TE.

Huh? The under front was what we were referring to which is what the Giants have utilized with the joker. No one was suggesting Moore would be a "LB like Boley", but rather like Kiwi. Moore is better suited to fill that role than him due to his pedigree in the 34. They all referenced him playing as an LB at Texas A&M, which he was whether he was primary passrusher or not. In his first two years, he lined up from a two point stance and was moved everywhere, even mirroring WRs and TEs before bailing into coverage. That skillset isn't much different than how his role would be here as you initially suggested.

penguinfarmer
05-20-2013, 09:43 AM
Do you think he can be a complete 3 down lineman at 255?

That was roughly Osi's weight. I know the crowd will come in shortly to mock his play against the run. But that had more to do with his skillset where he was asked to shoot the outside gaps than his weight [he actually lost weight compared to what he came in at his combine]. Strahan even played around that weight in the latter of his career.

Point being, weight is relative to the player's current abilities.

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 10:07 AM
well Kiwi was conberted by yhe Giants to play SLB for us as a regular linebacker not a stand up blitzing linebacker. They wanted him to Convert from Dend to be a 43 linebacker anf when they wanted him to blitz they would just put him back at End all his highlights are sacks from the end position. Now with Moore, if they are having him at a stand up position but mostly for blitzing, the Joker position. Thats fine... I just thought they were going to try to do with him what they did with Kiwi and what they tried to do with Clint Sintim. The biggest problem I have with this is we lost Osi and need Dends. I hate that Reese would rather take a defensive ends like kiwi and Sintim and try to make them a linebacker then keeping them at DE and doing the most logical thing such as drafting a LB or picking one up in free agency. It blows my mind that Reese would rather take the time to convert a DE into a regular 43 backer then actually draft one, trade for one, or free agency. Nobody finds that stupid but me???

Clint Sintim was a 3-4 OLB that they wanted to convert to DE (eventually). Unfortunately he was injured too much.

Kiwi was the opposite. The logic there was that they wanted their most athletically gifted athletes on the field and with the emergence of Osi, Kiwi got subbed to SAM and rotated into the dline on nickel packages (and/or as needed).

And yes I also find it a bit of square peg/round hole to attempt all these conversions instead of finding players who are natural to those positions.

Having said that, Moore has played the joker spot in college more than any of the other aforementioned so theoretically he should have the easiest time making the transition (since it's not much of a transition). However, since his weakness is against the run and he's never been asked to drop back in coverage (much), I don't see an upside to playing him as a LBer in our system.

BigJ
05-20-2013, 10:42 AM
Clint Sintim was a 3-4 OLB that they wanted to convert to DE (eventually). Unfortunately he was injured too much.

Kiwi was the opposite. The logic there was that they wanted their most athletically gifted athletes on the field and with the emergence of Osi, Kiwi got subbed to SAM and rotated into the dline on nickel packages (and/or as needed).

And yes I also find it a bit of square peg/round hole to attempt all these conversions instead of finding players who are natural to those positions.

Having said that, Moore has played the joker spot in college more than any of the other aforementioned so theoretically he should have the easiest time making the transition (since it's not much of a transition). However, since his weakness is against the run and he's never been asked to drop back in coverage (much), I don't see an upside to playing him as a LBer in our system. so once again I just need to make this clear for myself. The Joker position that he would be playing is like an extra rusher? Like a stand up linebacker but mostly rushing behind the Dend and never really dropping back into coverage??

JesseJames
05-20-2013, 12:10 PM
from what I've read about Moore he is not a hard worker so when I read things about the team trying to convert him to LBer it makes me think of what was done to Kiwi, if they are going to attempt to retrain Moore to a new position then it looks like a long project which may or may not work out. I just don't like the way the Giants draft players and then turn them into projects at position they aren't real familiar with..

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 12:50 PM
from what I've read about Moore he is not a hard worker so when I read things about the team trying to convert him to LBer it makes me think of what was done to Kiwi, if they are going to attempt to retrain Moore to a new position then it looks like a long project which may or may not work out. I just don't like the way the Giants draft players and then turn them into projects at position they aren't real familiar with..

Where are people getting this stuff? The giants plan to use Moore like he was used in college. As a joker and an end

Drez
05-20-2013, 12:55 PM
Where are people getting this stuff? The giants plan to use Moore like he was used in college. As a joker and an endI'm going to go with a lack of fundamental football knowledge.

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 01:17 PM
so once again I just need to make this clear for myself. The Joker position that he would be playing is like an extra rusher? Like a stand up linebacker but mostly rushing behind the Dend and never really dropping back into coverage??

Pretty much. Although if Kiwi does move to full time DE, then the Giants' version of the "joker" becomes the SAM. We just don't blitz or utilize a joker very much in our current scheme.

Having said all that, if Keith Rivers actually stays healthy, I'd expect you'd only see Moore as a blitzer on occasion and being worked into the DE rotation (hence why I don't anticipate seeing a lot of him this year).

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 01:17 PM
Where are people getting this stuff? The giants plan to use Moore like he was used in college. As a joker and an end

Except we don't run joker packages very much (unless that's something that's about to change).

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Except we don't run joker packages very much (unless that's something that's about to change).

Giants have used the 4-3 under before. I think it may become their base defense this year. They have the right personnel for it. The only real question mark would be Tuck at 5 tech. But the giants have enough bigger bodies that if tuck struggles they can use one of them instead.

Fewell should be very familiar with the 4-3 under due to his time with Lovie Smith

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 03:05 PM
Giants have used the 4-3 under before. I think it may become their base defense this year. They have the right personnel for it. The only real question mark would be Tuck at 5 tech. But the giants have enough bigger bodies that if tuck struggles they can use one of them instead.

Fewell should be very familiar with the 4-3 under due to his time with Lovie Smith

I've seen us run 4-3 *over* a few times under Perry Fewell (LBer over the TE) but I don't think I've seen us run a 4-3/under since Spags (maybe once or twice with Sintim)?

I'd love the setup personally ... I just don't see Fewell doing it (not to mention it's fairly easy to run away from a 4-3/under and we're in a running division).

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 03:11 PM
I've seen us run 4-3 *over* a few times under Perry Fewell (LBer over the TE) but I don't think I've seen us run a 4-3/under since Spags (maybe once or twice with Sintim)?

I'd love the setup personally ... I just don't see Fewell doing it (not to mention it's fairly easy to run away from a 4-3/under and we're in a running division).

The 4-3 under was the base defense with Sheridan. Though I'm not sure he knew what he was doing trying to have Osi play 5 tech and 2 gap.

In an over usually the Sam is inside the DE. But still up towards the line. The under the Sam is outside the DE. Both scenarios the Sam is on the same side of the field as the TE.

The 4-3 under is inherently a better run defense than the standard 4-3 is.

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 03:17 PM
The 4-3 under was the base defense with Sheridan. Though I'm not sure he knew what he was doing trying to have Osi play 5 tech and 2 gap.

In an over usually the Sam is inside the DE. But still up towards the line. The under the Sam is outside the DE. Both scenarios the Sam is on the same side of the field as the TE.

The 4-3 under is inherently a better run defense than the standard 4-3 is.


That's not how I was taught 4-3 over/under. Over is SAM over the TE, and under is WILL (or best blitzing LBer) covering the weak side DE in a blitz look.

IIRC, Sheridan ran both over/under looks ... and neither ever really seemed to know what they were about. We also seem to get really abused over the middle and in the seams on those looks in the past (Witten used to have a field day against those).

Hence 4-3/over is your run stuffing defense and 4-3/under is your naked blitz package.

But nomenclature and looks will change from system to system. Either way, I agree that we may see more run strong defensive looks from the Giants this year.

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 03:23 PM
This is what I was taught. http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/13/4320540/defining-the-seahawks-defense-an-introduction

I know in madden the under/over are just opposite sides. The rolb is on the line in one and the lolb is on the line in the other. But that's not how it's supposed to work. The weakside linebacker should always be on the weakside, away from the TE

joemorrisforprez
05-20-2013, 03:24 PM
I posted this in another thread, but reposting it here regarding how Fewell schemes his over/under looks (see around 1:30+)

I think the whole clip is pretty interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBWg4YtRNRI

Sovereign
05-20-2013, 03:43 PM
Lol we don't have the personnel for the under at all. I mean sure if you want to you can but they aren't good enough for it. Next year if Marvin Austin and Hankins become what they're supposed to be then we can do it.

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 03:58 PM
This is what I was taught. http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/13/4320540/defining-the-seahawks-defense-an-introduction

I know in madden the under/over are just opposite sides. The rolb is on the line in one and the lolb is on the line in the other. But that's not how it's supposed to work. The weakside linebacker should always be on the weakside, away from the TE

Madden .... that explains a lot.

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 04:04 PM
I posted this in another thread, but reposting it here regarding how Fewell schemes his over/under looks (see around 1:30+)

I think the whole clip is pretty interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBWg4YtRNRI

Didn't Sheridan reverse his strong side / weak side definitions too?

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 04:15 PM
Lol we don't have the personnel for the under at all. I mean sure if you want to you can but they aren't good enough for it. Next year if Marvin Austin and Hankins become what they're supposed to be then we can do it.

Huh? They are very well suited for it.

JPP as the Leo
Jenkins as a 3 tech
Linval as 1 tech
Tuck as 5 tech
Kiwi/Moore/Tracy as joker.

Hankins and linval can both play 3 tech and 5 tech as well.

On passing downs you flip tuck to 3 tech and Jenkins to 1 tech. The joker moves up and puts his hand down

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 04:17 PM
Madden .... that explains a lot.

That's exactly my point. What you learned is how it works in madden. Not how it's taught or done in the nfl.

If a team is in an under or over front and the offense switches the TEs side, either the defensive players have to move to the opposite side, or you have to teach them how to play both the strong side and weak side positions so they can stay on the same side of the field

Kruunch
05-20-2013, 04:36 PM
That's exactly my point. What you learned is how it works in madden. Not how it's taught or done in the nfl.

If a team is in an under or over front and the offense switches the TEs side, either the defensive players have to move to the opposite side, or you have to teach them how to play both the strong side and weak side positions so they can stay on the same side of the field

I've never played Madden.

When I say I was "taught" a certain way, it means I was literally taught on the field-of-play ... not read off of a website (or in Madden if that's your thing).

Having said that (again) every coach has his own nomenclature and spin (PF lining his WILL up off of the TE for example). So while you're correct for some teams, you'd be incorrect for others. A point that we seem to consistently clash on.

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 04:54 PM
I've never played Madden.

When I say I was "taught" a certain way, it means I was literally taught on the field-of-play ... not read off of a website (or in Madden if that's your thing).

Having said that (again) every coach has his own nomenclature and spin (PF lining his WILL up off of the TE for example). So while you're correct for some teams, you'd be incorrect for others. A point that we seem to consistently clash on.


Well perry has the names backwards for whatever reason. But in order to keep his defenders from switching sides when the offense puts the TE in motion, he teaches them all both sides. So J Will may initially be the "Sam". Then the TE goes to the other side and J Will becomes the "Will". But his responsibility has changed even though he has not physically moved to the opposite side

Moving from an over to under doesn't ever put the "will" up on the TE. Unless you call your Sam the will like fewell does. But the point is that the over and under aren't reversed, it doesn't just put the Sam on the line against the te vs. putting the will on the line vs the TE.

JesseJames
05-20-2013, 06:07 PM
Where are people getting this stuff? The giants plan to use Moore like he was used in college. As a joker and an end Slip, I didn't make t it up I just read it in a sports page...

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 06:11 PM
Slip, I didn't make t it up I just read it in a sports page...

then they were making it up. Thats how this stuff gets spread.

The giants have not to my knowledge said anything about moving Moore to linebacker at all.

JesseJames
05-20-2013, 06:40 PM
then they were making it up. Thats how this stuff gets spread.

The giants have not to my knowledge said anything about moving Moore to linebacker at all. the following must be the article that caused the confusion about Moore playing Lber.


What are the chances that Damontre Moore could be moved to linebacker? That would help us in an area of weakness and get him on the field sooner. Or perhaps Adrian Tracy, who seemed to have some success in preseason a few years ago playing linebacker?

Dear Dave:
I doubt either player will officially be moved to linebacker. But that doesn’t preclude them from unofficially playing a linebacker-type position at times. The Giants are going to use numerous fronts in 2013. It is possible that in some of them players with the skill sets of Moore and/or Tracy could line up in a two-point stance. They won’t be listed as linebackers. The Giants seem to have many dual-position possibilities. Aaron Curry, a linebacker, said last week he enjoyed playing in the middle of the line in some schemes in Oakland.

slipknottin
05-20-2013, 06:46 PM
Using Moore as a "linebacker" in certain packages can be done. As he did that in college. 4-3 under particularly. That formation uses a "rush linebacker" which is largely the equivalent of a 3-4 OLB.

TheAnalyst
05-20-2013, 06:47 PM
I like this pick, might be my favorite of the draft for us.

He is only 20 so the sky is the limit with this kid. He will get stronger, and our organization will make him smarter in his decision making, I would hope. He has the talent to be a steal, like Tuck was being a 3rd rounder... But I swear, if I see this kid doing what JPP and Tuck were doing last year, roming around as a covering LB after starting with his hand in the dirt, Im going to scream. Send the blitz Perry!

Sovereign
05-21-2013, 01:37 AM
Huh? They are very well suited for it.

JPP as the Leo
Jenkins as a 3 tech
Linval as 1 tech
Tuck as 5 tech
Kiwi/Moore/Tracy as joker.

Hankins and linval can both play 3 tech and 5 tech as well.

On passing downs you flip tuck to 3 tech and Jenkins to 1 tech. The joker moves up and puts his hand down

JPP is 270 lbs and has no prior experience in being a two point rusher. Considering the only knock on JPP's game is his technique which is why they're calling in Strahan, ahving him change dramatically wouldn't work. In year one.

Jenkins is an old, situational pass rusher who's useless against the run. Linval is also very inconsistent as the 1 tech who struggle in double teams. Tuck lol. 5 techs have to be two gappers. Tuck at this point sucks against one guy.

penguinfarmer
05-21-2013, 06:58 AM
The leo/elephant isn't a two point stance. It's a down linemen who has to option to drop. That is still the primary passrusher of the line.

I don't see how calling Jenkins a mere passrusher from the 3 is supposed to be a pejorative as he's doing what his position asks of him. The fact that Linval is getting those double teams as suggested means he's not struggling and is doing his job at the 1.

The 7T Sam in an under front also alleviates a lot of the responsibilities of the MLB which is a clear unknown at this point. It also passes containment to the safety, which would hopefully give Rolle a better defined position that better suits his abilities rather than him making the wrong read in deep coverage.

BigJ
05-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Madden .... that explains a lot. hahaha

giantsfan420
05-21-2013, 01:15 PM
Where are people getting this stuff? The giants plan to use Moore like he was used in college. As a joker and an endi dunno man. i dunno. i tried pointing out how Moore isnt going to be transitioned into a non pass rush OLB as some here strangely claim. its not what he's done. as u said, he's a pass rusher, whether as a DE or an upright joker (who will occasionally play coverage to keep offenses guessing).