PDA

View Full Version : Football Outsiders "Red Flags" for NY Giants



joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 11:43 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9271344

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/51344/giants-red-flag-linebacker




Football Outsiders is doing a series of posts called "Red Flags," which take a look at the biggest remaining issue facing each team with the draft behind us and minicamps getting underway. Today's post is on the NFC East teams (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9269361/nfl-biggest-remaining-issue-cowboys-eagles-giants-redskins) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/in.gif, and I'm breaking it up into four smaller posts to examine the red flags team-by-team. This one's on the New York Giants (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyg/new-york-giants), for whom the greatest remaining concern appears to be linebacker.

.....Sean McCormick thinks "it's hard to remember the last time the Giants had even one really good player in their linebacking corps." The Giants tend to spend their resources on really good players who play other positions, like the defensive line and wide receiver and quarterback, and the result at linebacker is stuff like this:

The current starting trio of Dan Connor (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11308/dan-connor), Keith Rivers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11243/keith-rivers) and Jacquian Williams (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14199/jacquian-williams) is typical of the patchwork approach general manager Jerry Reese has taken during his tenure. Connor is a solid two-down plugger who is vulnerable in the passing game due to his lack of speed. Rivers is a former top-10 pick who has accumulated more surgeries than sacks in his five-year career. And Jacquian Williams is a guy named Jacquian Williams; he reportedly played in each of the past two seasons, but Giants fans can neither confirm nor deny his presence on the roster.


....It's also important to note the Giants spend less time every year in their base 4-3 as passing offenses continue to get more complex and they have to run nickel corners and third safeties into the lineup to offset them. So linebacker is, by definition, a low-priority item for them. Still, there are times when the pass rush isn't dominant and the secondary is lost and the Giants look soft in the middle of the defense, and when that happens you have to think the lack of top talent at the linebacker position is costing them. It's likely to happen a few times this year as well. It's just a decision the Giants always seem to make to go in that direction.




I rest my case.

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 11:49 PM
wow. u really have a disorder here. where are people claiming we have awesome LB's? where are people claiming we dont need to improve the LB unit?


PEOPLE ARE CONTINUALLY ASKING YOU WHERE ARE THESE LB'S? the article you link even forewarns that "we HAD TO address different positions with the draft picks"....so again, what is your solution?

would drafting Greene really have made everything alright in your eyes? ANOTHER will lb? he, at best, would be AS GOOD as JWill year 1, AT BEST. hes not a Mike and wouldnt be ready as 1 for years. The picks earlier were all at bigger needs...man, cmon why is this not sinking in? We ALL AGREE WITH YOU, we just understand theres not much to be done...and the possible solutions, JR has exhausted himself (outside of drafting Green in rd 4 when a franchise caliber QB with a 1rst-2nd rd grade was there).

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 11:50 PM
its like u think there are people here calling for the LB unit to remain the same...we ALL want improvement. theres nothing out there that actually does improve it, at least not in our price range/list of priorities...

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 11:52 PM
its like u think there are people here calling for the LB unit to remain the same...we ALL want improvement. theres nothing out there that actually does improve it, at least not in our price range/list of priorities...

Yup....nobody was available to be drafted....okay, keep believing that.

Do you like swampland? I've got some for sale if you're interested.

giantsfan420
05-15-2013, 11:52 PM
lmfao, and the last statement u bolded, u put the emphasis on the wrong statement. the sentence or two before it should be bolded, the part where it says we're in the base 4-3 less and less and the priority for a LB is lesser than anywhere else.

Buddy333
05-15-2013, 11:53 PM
So it's the last remaining concern after they filled heir biggest need. A better DL. It's hard to remember the pastime they had a really good LB but not to hard to remember that they won 2 of he last 6 Championships. That is all that matters.

joemorrisforprez
05-15-2013, 11:55 PM
lmfao, and the last statement u bolded, u put the emphasis on the wrong statement. the sentence or two before it should be bolded, the part where it says we're in the base 4-3 less and less and the priority for a LB is lesser than anywhere else.

Please, this is topic is concerning what football experts believe are the Giants biggest issues heading into the season.

My opinions are not part of their input....I'm just posting what I believe is a relevant Giants-related article.

Thanks, have a great day.

ny06
05-16-2013, 12:02 AM
Fact is we're going into the season with as the author stated "patchwork" core of linebackers. I do like J-Will, but lets see if he can duplicate his rookie season.
I have read numerous comments that, "we won two Super Bowls with average linebackers" "the linebacker position is becoming almost extinct as value to a 4-3 defense" etc...
But I say this, there is 11 guys on the field on defense, does the 3 players, 2 depending on the defensive scheme have to be a liability? Do we have to put that much more added pressure on the defensive line to cover a weakness in a position (linebacker)
I don't have faith in Rivers and Curry, if they can make more tackles then visits to the trainers room I'll be thrilled.
All in all I'm hoping for the best, and expecting the worst at the linebacker position.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:24 AM
Fact is we're going into the season with as the author stated "patchwork" core of linebackers. I do like J-Will, but lets see if he can duplicate his rookie season.
I have read numerous comments that, "we won two Super Bowls with average linebackers" "the linebacker position is becoming almost extinct as value to a 4-3 defense" etc...
But I say this, there is 11 guys on the field on defense, does the 3 players, 2 depending on the defensive scheme have to be a liability? Do we have to put that much more added pressure on the defensive line to cover a weakness in a position (linebacker)
I don't have faith in Rivers and Curry, if they can make more tackles then visits to the trainers room I'll be thrilled.
All in all I'm hoping for the best, and expecting the worst at the linebacker position.

Very well-said.

I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.

giantsfan420
05-16-2013, 01:07 AM
Very well-said.

I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.
nice post

G-Men Surg.
05-16-2013, 01:29 AM
FACT, in '07 the Giants won with Antonio Pierce at MLB an undrafted rookie FA from Arizona and ex-redskin, a WLB FA in Kavika Mitchell and Reggie Torbor as the SLB filling in for Kiwi, injured during the end of the season.

FACT, the Giants won in '11 with Chase Blackburn at MLB, Kiwi at SLB and Boley at WLB, don't see any perennial All Pros named.

FACT, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the patern Mr. Reese and Co. have in building a contending championship team and if he continues to have success in the future with that formula I'm sure will see the day no one questions his ways anymore.

bearbryant
05-16-2013, 02:18 AM
Very well-said.

I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.

Your 8 ball is doing a dandy job today Joe! Keep it going and add on the RGIII type QB's we now see and does that bring on the need for more athletic LB's who run, cover and react like deer? Whatever, for sure the upcoming changes in the league are going to make the game a lot of fun to watch! Hope Big Blue is prepared for these changes. Go Giants!

GiantRoc
05-16-2013, 02:42 AM
I think we can all agree the mindset is, build the defense around the front four, and try to kick up the scoring with talent at the skill positions. Pressure the other teams with aggressive athletic D-linemen and have agile DB's to pick off errant throws resulting from that pressure. Injuries to, and poor play from the D-line hurt the D's ability to stop other offenses. Smart versatile LB's are a support role it would seem. The over all lack of talent at LB was exposed due to weak DL play. We could never afford to keep top shelf linebackers, due to top pay going elsewhere.

Big money went, or is going to offensive skill players. Attention went to the O-line, (finally) when our skill players could not get the ball for all the pressure from opposing defenses. The shoring up of both O an D lines will go a long way to improving the play on both sides of the ball this season. The other big thing will be, to try to keep players on the damn field. That itself would help greatly.

The Reese formula can and does work. We need a bit of luck to go our way, just like any other team. In our case, I think our lucky break will be our players being on the field more than at rehab.

myles2424
05-16-2013, 05:09 AM
FACT, in '07 the Giants won with Antonio Pierce at MLB an undrafted rookie FA from Arizona and ex-redskin, a WLB FA in Kavika Mitchell and Reggie Torbor as the SLB filling in for Kiwi, injured during the end of the season.

FACT, the Giants won in '11 with Chase Blackburn at MLB, Kiwi at SLB and Boley at WLB, don't see any perennial All Pros named.

FACT, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the patern Mr. Reese and Co. have in building a contending championship team and if he continues to have success in the future with that formula I'm sure will see the day no one questions his ways anymore.
If the argument is we can win without good LBs, then one couldn't disagree that legit LBs would make our defense even that much better right???

also,when teams attacked the middle of our D all year & there was plenty of obvious game planning to avoid our passrush, then clearly teams have figured out our weakness...2012 is a clear indication that our D is not what it was prior.....every weakness needs to be upgraded & LB is our biggest

giantsfam04
05-16-2013, 06:04 AM
Please, this is topic is concerning what football experts believe are the Giants biggest issues heading into the season.

My opinions are not part of their input....I'm just posting what I believe is a relevant Giants-related article.

Thanks, have a great day.

What makes them experts? The experts are the guys running the team not some talking head on tv. The only difference between us and talking heads is that they have a national tv platform and we don't. This is the same expert opinion that said our 07 draft was a c and yet we had 4 rookies contribute heavly that season and we beat the best team anyone has ever seen in the superbowl. There opinions do not nessarrly reflect reality, if it did the Eagles and Cowboys would have dominated the last 10 years.

Captain Chaos
05-16-2013, 06:10 AM
I have to admitt there are some excellent points you bring up; however, I do think JR is doing what he can with the money that he has. He has decided to be creative in putting together a LB core, that's not a bad thing in my mind. If you are looking at last years LB performance, you have to put some of that on the D Line, if they aren't eating up space and taking on double teams etc it doesn't matter how good your LBs are... Anyway, J Will has great potential and has above average cover skills. Rivers is solid when healthy, Connor is a plugger (vulnerable in the passing game), Pasinger shows some potential as well. Unfortunately Herz did not impress me when he was on the field last year. Curry is coming off of an injury and is a complete unknown (I really don't think you can count on him) Massau was a practice squad guy and the former Buckeye Sabino was an interesting pickup. I think there is plenty to work with there and with the three safety look we are better prepared to take on the speed QBs. If you have to be creative somewhere that is not a bad place to look.

PBTimmons
05-16-2013, 07:19 AM
The only true strength on our D is the front 4. I see the real problem in Secondary depth. If we lose Prince or Rolle we are simply ****ed. Stevie Brown had a great 2012 but he's not a proven commodity and could end up looking more like CC Brown in 2013; who is to say for sure?

At least when it comes to LB, if we lose any one guy the drop-off is negligible.

Buddy333
05-16-2013, 07:48 AM
If the argument is we can win without good LBs, then one couldn't disagree that legit LBs would make our defense even that much better right??? also,when teams attacked the middle of our D all year & there was plenty of obvious game planning to avoid our passrush, then clearly teams have figured out our weakness...2012 is a clear indication that our D is not what it was prior.....every weakness needs to be upgraded & LB is our biggestEvery team has its weakness and the Giants would prefer that theirs is not the DL. They where not going to fix every problem in one offseason with the draft and no cap space. Their next biggest problem is their secondary, not LB. so even if they had the money they would probably spend it on a CB.

speedman
05-16-2013, 08:16 AM
For all of the people complaining about the linebackers. Who would you have signed and for what price and who would you take off the team to afford that price?

Kruunch
05-16-2013, 08:21 AM
The Giants are weak at LBer.

In other news, the Russians drink vodka, there's turmoil somewhere in the Middle East and Kevin Costner still can't act.

Stay tuned.

TheAnalyst
05-16-2013, 08:23 AM
And Jacquian Williams is a guy named Jacquian Williams; he reportedly played in each of the past two seasons, but Giants fans can neither confirm nor deny his presence on the roster.



This is the only part I disagree with.

Redeyejedi
05-16-2013, 08:51 AM
Your 8 ball is doing a dandy job today Joe! Keep it going and add on the RGIII type QB's we now see and does that bring on the need for more athletic LB's who run, cover and react like deer? Whatever, for sure the upcoming changes in the league are going to make the game a lot of fun to watch! Hope Big Blue is prepared for these changes. Go Giants!Yes name these athletic 3 down MLB's the Giants are passing on please. You guys act like these players are plentiful in every draft when thats simply not the case.

Drez
05-16-2013, 09:41 AM
Yes name these athletic 3 down MLB's the Giants are passing on please. You guys act like these players are plentiful in every draft when thats simply not the case.Don't you know those types of LBs grow on trees and are readily available in all rounds of the draft?

Redeyejedi
05-16-2013, 10:16 AM
Don't you know those types of LBs grow on trees and are readily available in all rounds of the draft?Arthur Brown was the 1st we passed on where value of ranking and skill set met.

TCHOF
05-16-2013, 10:20 AM
Isn't it good that the weakest position on the team is the position that the team values the least? Isn't that the goal of all front offices?

TheEnigma
05-16-2013, 10:28 AM
Yes name these athletic 3 down MLB's the Giants are passing on please. You guys act like these players are plentiful in every draft when thats simply not the case.

The chances of finding quality 3 down LBs late in the draft is extremely hard these days. You're better off throwing draft picks shoring up depth at more important positions.

gumby74
05-16-2013, 10:28 AM
Madden is bad for you.

BlueSanta
05-16-2013, 10:36 AM
Arthur Brown was the 1st we passed on where value of ranking and skill set met.

I agree with this. I thought Brown would be a good fit here.


However, I would reiterate that people claiming Jwill is unproven are wrong.

Last year, he had a hip issue and that is a part of football. Deal with it.

However, as a rookie in 2011 who only started a couple of games, he was 2nd in the entire NFL among rookie LBs in tackles made. He was literally the reason we won one of the games he started vs the Eagles as he shut M Vick down. He amassed all those tackles with FAR less playtime than several other big name starting rookie LBs around the league in 2011. Furthermore, it was the best rookie season for NYG LB since some guy who wore #56.

So lets get behind the kid and stop saying he is a question mark. He clearly has the ability and he proved that as a rookie.


I do understand the questioning of the other positions and Connor is possibly a problem, but then again the MLB on this team is on the field for ~40% of the defensive snaps. Clearly SLB is a possible problem as well. Moore could be the answer we don't know. But I do not think we are worse off than we were last year simply because Boley was statistically 1 of the worst starting LBs in the NFL. The droppoff in his play from the previous year was tremendous. Chase was equally bad. Those 2 players are gone.

TCHOF
05-16-2013, 10:48 AM
I agree with this. I thought Brown would be a good fit here.


However, I would reiterate that people claiming Jwill is unproven are wrong.

Last year, he had a hip issue and that is a part of football. Deal with it.

However, as a rookie in 2011 who only started a couple of games, he was 2nd in the entire NFL among rookie LBs in tackles made. He was literally the reason we won one of the games he started vs the Eagles as he shut M Vick down. He amassed all those tackles with FAR less playtime than several other big name starting rookie LBs around the league in 2011. Furthermore, it was the best rookie season for NYG LB since some guy who wore #56.

So lets get behind the kid and stop saying he is a question mark. He clearly has the ability and he proved that as a rookie.


I do understand the questioning of the other positions and Connor is possibly a problem, but then again the MLB on this team is on the field for ~40% of the defensive snaps. Clearly SLB is a possible problem as well. Moore could be the answer we don't know. But I do not think we are worse off than we were last year simply because Boley was statistically 1 of the worst starting LBs in the NFL. The droppoff in his play from the previous year was tremendous. Chase was equally bad. Those 2 players are gone.

Good post

TheEnigma
05-16-2013, 10:56 AM
However, I would reiterate that people claiming Jwill is unproven are wrong.

Last year, he had a hip issue and that is a part of football. Deal with it.

However, as a rookie in 2011 who only started a couple of games, he was 2nd in the entire NFL among rookie LBs in tackles made. He was literally the reason we won one of the games he started vs the Eagles as he shut M Vick down. He amassed all those tackles with FAR less playtime than several other big name starting rookie LBs around the league in 2011. Furthermore, it was the best rookie season for NYG LB since some guy who wore #56.

So lets get behind the kid and stop saying he is a question mark. He clearly has the ability and he proved that as a rookie.


I do understand the questioning of the other positions and Connor is possibly a problem, but then again the MLB on this team is on the field for ~40% of the defensive snaps. Clearly SLB is a possible problem as well. Moore could be the answer we don't know. But I do not think we are worse off than we were last year simply because Boley was statistically 1 of the worst starting LBs in the NFL. The droppoff in his play from the previous year was tremendous. Chase was equally bad. Those 2 players are gone.

Wasn't part of the reason for the injury due to the fact he shot up to 240lbs in the offseason? He probably had to get used to playing with that additional weight since he came into the NFL barely over 220. Who knows...maybe he will be groomed to be the eventual MLB depending on what he shows the coaching staff. He already is the MLB for passing downs anyway and he certainly has the physical skillset to evolve as a player. NO ONE knew who the **** this kid was when we drafted him but he's quietly become a sleeper on this team.

JesseJames
05-16-2013, 11:06 AM
people keep saying that there was no good LBer available when we picked and I find that ridiculous, there are very good LBers all over the league and quite a few of them were available when we picked but people keep talking about value and that argument is getting old..I think its obvious that Reese doesn't value LBers and we most likely won't have one on the team until Reese leave or changes his thinking. I wonder what Coughlin would say if he was asked what his feelings are about the state of his LBers...

TCHOF
05-16-2013, 11:07 AM
people keep saying that there was no good LBer available when we picked and I find that ridiculous, there are very good LBers all over the league and quite a few of them were available when we picked but people keep talking about value and that argument is getting old..I think its obvious that Reese doesn't value LBers and we most likely won't have one on the team until Reese leave or changes his thinking. I wonder what Coughlin would say if he was asked what his feelings are about the state of his LBers...

So, who are the LB's that you wanted to pick instead of the guys that we actually drafted?

dannyboomboom1
05-16-2013, 11:17 AM
So I'll jump in here... Other than maybe 2-3 teams, don't all other teams more or less have "patch-work" LB corps? Yeah I'd love to have a dominant LB crew as much as the next guy, but the fact is our D has been set up to have dominating DEs rather than LBs. Our philosophy over the past 10 or so years has been to put the talent up front rather than in the LBs and it's kind of hard to argue with it since it brought us 2 titles. All teams have issues, ours is at LBer. Big deal, it has to be somewhere and since we generally play 3 safeties or nickle and sometimes 3 and 4 DEs, what difference does it make who is at LBer if thats our defensive scheme?

I feel like this is the same argument I heard from Yankee fans over the past 10 years who get angry when 1 of their every day players isn't an All Star and making $20 mil a year. You cannot have studs at every position!

And just for giggles, those 49ers with that fantastic LB crew....zippy rings!

BlueSabbath
05-16-2013, 11:35 AM
lmfao, and the last statement u bolded, u put the emphasis on the wrong statement. the sentence or two before it should be bolded, the part where it says we're in the base 4-3 less and less and the priority for a LB is lesser than anywhere else.

Unless we're being forced into that more because of poor LB play.

BlueSabbath
05-16-2013, 11:46 AM
FACT, in '07 the Giants won with Antonio Pierce at MLB an undrafted rookie FA from Arizona and ex-redskin, a WLB FA in Kavika Mitchell and Reggie Torbor as the SLB filling in for Kiwi, injured during the end of the season.

FACT, the Giants won in '11 with Chase Blackburn at MLB, Kiwi at SLB and Boley at WLB, don't see any perennial All Pros named.

FACT, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the patern Mr. Reese and Co. have in building a contending championship team and if he continues to have success in the future with that formula I'm sure will see the day no one questions his ways anymore.

Pierce may have been undrafted but he had at least played a full season and proven he can get it done in the NFL before we took him.

FACT: We were 9-7 in 2011 and BARELY made the playoffs... and to be honest... I thought we were extremely fortunate in the playoffs. Teams that looked like they were better teams just kinda fell apart. I wouldn't expect that to happen again.

FACT: We were 27th in the NFL in total defense in 2011. If that's how you want our defense to continue to look and just cross our fingers and hope we squeeze into the playoffs... then yeah, I guess we can keep ignoring the LB position.

dannyboomboom1
05-16-2013, 12:00 PM
I mean we could spend the next couple top picks on highly rated LBers, and spend more cap space on top LB FAs but then we would have to field lesser skilled DEs and DTs as well as WRs. So we'd get LESS pressure on the QB, have a WEAKER line, and score LESS, but our LBers would be top notch. Is that a trade you are willing to make? Because to add the talent and put the money into LB it has to come from other positions. And since this formula has brought 2 championships and until the team is flailing, I am not willing to sign on for it!

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:01 PM
The Giants are weak at LBer.

In other news, the Russians drink vodka, there's turmoil somewhere in the Middle East and Kevin Costner still can't act.

Stay tuned.

I liked him in Field of Dreams.

repeatchamps
05-16-2013, 12:02 PM
Pierce may have been undrafted but he had at least played a full season and proven he can get it done in the NFL before we took him.

FACT: We were 9-7 in 2011 and BARELY made the playoffs... and to be honest... I thought we were extremely fortunate in the playoffs. Teams that looked like they were better teams just kinda fell apart. I wouldn't expect that to happen again.

FACT: We were 27th in the NFL in total defense in 2011. If that's how you want our defense to continue to look and just cross our fingers and hope we squeeze into the playoffs... then yeah, I guess we can keep ignoring the LB position.

Yup that 2011 27th ranked defense is all on the LB'ers right? The defensive line played all-pro top to bottom and the secondary were a bunch of Revis' game in and game out, right?

Oh and the 9-7 record had nothing to do with the inability to run the ball 99% of the time and Eli not being light's out (heck or just consistent) for 60 minutes instead of just the 4th quarter or because the return game (pre-David Wilson remember) of the special teams was non-existant or that Gilbride and Fewell institutes questionable game plans at times and adjusts poorly. Nope none of those things contributed, it's all on the LB'ers:rolleyes:

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:03 PM
So I'll jump in here... Other than maybe 2-3 teams, don't all other teams more or less have "patch-work" LB corps? Yeah I'd love to have a dominant LB crew as much as the next guy, but the fact is our D has been set up to have dominating DEs rather than LBs. Our philosophy over the past 10 or so years has been to put the talent up front rather than in the LBs and it's kind of hard to argue with it since it brought us 2 titles. All teams have issues, ours is at LBer. Big deal, it has to be somewhere and since we generally play 3 safeties or nickle and sometimes 3 and 4 DEs, what difference does it make who is at LBer if thats our defensive scheme?

I feel like this is the same argument I heard from Yankee fans over the past 10 years who get angry when 1 of their every day players isn't an All Star and making $20 mil a year. You cannot have studs at every position!

And just for giggles, those 49ers with that fantastic LB crew....zippy rings!

If they had Eli Manning, they'd have at least one.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:07 PM
Yup that 2011 27th ranked defense is all on the LB'ers right? The defensive line played all-pro top to bottom and the secondary were a bunch of Revis' right?

Oh and the 9-7 record had nothing to do with the inability to run the ball 99% of the time and Eli not being light's out (heck or just consistent) for 60 minutes instead of just the 4th quarter or because the return game of the special teams was non-existant or that Gilbride and Fewell institutes questionable game plans at times and adjusts poorly. Nope none of those things contributed, it's all on the LB'ers:rolleyes:

I don't think BlueSabbath was saying it's all on the linebackers.

I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think BlueSabbath is saying that we shouldn't be in a feast or famine mode predicated upon the dominance or dormancy of the defensive live.

It's that sort of reliance on an up-and-down front 4 that has produced back-to-back 9-7 seasons. Even in 2007, the Giants were nowhere in the conversation when it came to talking about powerhouse teams.

RECENT PAST:
We went on a late/playoff roll in 2007 and 2011, powered by a resurgent defensive line, but supported by good linebacker play, and nailed down by the most clutch QB in the NFL.

THE PRESENT:
We are now 2 years removed from that last chapter. We missed the playoffs and the entire defense was crushed by the playoff contenders. Two of our starting linebackers from last season are gone. We have a 2 year drafting dry spell at the linebacker position.

We are relying on a promising guy (JWill) to take the place of our best LB. We signed Connor to replace Blackburn, which is a questionable upgrade. Neither Rivers nor JWill have a full season of solid linebacking play to support an argument that they are the longterm answers at Sam and Will. Connor's stats have been okay, but certainly nothing to fawn over.

If Cooper Taylor, DaMontre Moore, and Aaron Curry pan out, the Red Flags are lowered. But right now, the Flags are flying until I see something on the field that I certainly didn't see in 2012.

keyofgmen
05-16-2013, 12:11 PM
I'm kinda hoping Moore plays OLB more than DE.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:21 PM
And Jacquian Williams is a guy named Jacquian Williams; he reportedly played in each of the past two seasons, but Giants fans can neither confirm nor deny his presence on the roster.



This is the only part I disagree with.

I agree with your comment. JWill is the LB on the team with the most upside. But it might turn out that he's our best linebacker this year, which would speak to the mediocrity of the older veterans.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 12:21 PM
I'm kinda hoping Moore plays OLB more than DE.

Me too, in a big way.

If Moore and Cooper take on LB duties, it really flips the value of the draft for me.

BlueSabbath
05-16-2013, 12:29 PM
Yup that 2011 27th ranked defense is all on the LB'ers right? The defensive line played all-pro top to bottom and the secondary were a bunch of Revis' game in and game out, right?

Oh and the 9-7 record had nothing to do with the inability to run the ball 99% of the time and Eli not being light's out (heck or just consistent) for 60 minutes instead of just the 4th quarter or because the return game (pre-David Wilson remember) of the special teams was non-existant or that Gilbride and Fewell institutes questionable game plans at times and adjusts poorly. Nope none of those things contributed, it's all on the LB'ers:rolleyes:

You used that year as a reason why we don't need linebacker improvement. I'm saying our defense sucked... some good linebackers could have helped. Thanks for the impression of an 8 year old girl though.

repeatchamps
05-16-2013, 12:32 PM
You used that year as a reason why we don't need linebacker improvement. I'm saying our defense sucked... some good linebackers could have helped. Thanks for the impression of an 8 year old girl though.

Lol, I did no such thing. I actually agree the unit needs to be improved, but the extent everyone is blaming defensive and overall team woes on just the LB'ers on this board is ridiculous. The people here whining constantly about LB'ers being the key to overall team improvement makes those doing it sound like the 8 year old girls, not me.

Of course LB'er upgrades would have helped. An upgrade at the Defensive tackle position and all the secondary positions would have also helped. An O-line that could block like the 12-4 2008 team did would have also helped. Two RB's not nearing 30 and hurt the majority of the year forcing virtually no practice time for them would also have helped. Consistent QB play for all 4 quarters instead of just the 4th would have also helped. Creative game planning and an ability to make adjustments at times would have also helped.

Drez
05-16-2013, 12:34 PM
Pierce may have been undrafted but he had at least played a full season and proven he can get it done in the NFL before we took him.

FACT: We were 9-7 in 2011 and BARELY made the playoffs... and to be honest... I thought we were extremely fortunate in the playoffs. Teams that looked like they were better teams just kinda fell apart. I wouldn't expect that to happen again.

FACT: We were 27th in the NFL in total defense in 2011. If that's how you want our defense to continue to look and just cross our fingers and hope we squeeze into the playoffs... then yeah, I guess we can keep ignoring the LB position.
1) So, do you think we should never draft a player because as a rookie, they have not proven that they can do it at the NFL level?

2) Other than the Packers (whom we nearly beat in the regular season fwiw), what team fell apart that looked better than us? Atlanta? I don't think so. SF? I think both the regular season match up and the NFCCG showed that we were evenly matched teams. NE? Didn't we beat them in the regular season, too?

3) And you know exactly how that all of our defensive troubles in '11 and '12 were directly related to our LB? I'd say we would have done better in '11 and in '12 if our secondary wasn't completely ravished by injury, and add to that the DL sucked balls in '12. Those two things had a bigger impact on our defensive showing.

BlueSabbath
05-16-2013, 01:12 PM
1) So, do you think we should never draft a player because as a rookie, they have not proven that they can do it at the NFL level?

2) Other than the Packers (whom we nearly beat in the regular season fwiw), what team fell apart that looked better than us? Atlanta? I don't think so. SF? I think both the regular season match up and the NFCCG showed that we were evenly matched teams. NE? Didn't we beat them in the regular season, too?

3) And you know exactly how that all of our defensive troubles in '11 and '12 were directly related to our LB? I'd say we would have done better in '11 and in '12 if our secondary wasn't completely ravished by injury, and add to that the DL sucked balls in '12. Those two things had a bigger impact on our defensive showing.

1) No... and I'm not sure how dumb you'd have to be to even think that was my point.

2) Packers and SF. Rewatching those made me think we were pretty fortunate to win. Not to take away from what we did either. Slippery slope I admit. And yes, we were REALLY close to beating them in the regular season... but that's not the game I was talking about was it? None of that really matters when you consider how close we were to not even making the playoffs. Basically I wouldn't use that year as an excuse for keeping something a certain way. It was a bit of an anomaly in my personal opinion.

3) I'm not saying better LBs is the only thing that would have changed our defense, it SURE AS HELL would have helped, again not sure how you could come to that conclusion... I'm saying I don't use that season as an excuse for why we don't need improvement at LB. I use the fact that I have watched us play as a reason for why we need improvement and seriously question what team you have been watching if you don't think we need improvement at LB. Call me crazy, but I think every level on the defense helps the others. Good DL will make the DBs look good. Good DBs help the DL. Good linebackers help both.. and so on.

giantscolombia
05-16-2013, 02:24 PM
Simple: Trade Eli, Hakeem, and Wilson for Patrick Willis and Bowman.

pacco_diablo
05-16-2013, 03:03 PM
I just question how well we're defensively built for the 3rd and 2's, 3rd and 1's, 4th and 1's, and God forbid goal line situations? Are we extra vulnerable to play action, screens and run sweeps, where a great mike can be worth his weight in gold?

Drez
05-16-2013, 03:26 PM
1) No... and I'm not sure how dumb you'd have to be to even think that was my point.

2) Packers and SF. Rewatching those made me think we were pretty fortunate to win. Not to take away from what we did either. Slippery slope I admit. And yes, we were REALLY close to beating them in the regular season... but that's not the game I was talking about was it? None of that really matters when you consider how close we were to not even making the playoffs. Basically I wouldn't use that year as an excuse for keeping something a certain way. It was a bit of an anomaly in my personal opinion.

3) I'm not saying better LBs is the only thing that would have changed our defense, it SURE AS HELL would have helped, again not sure how you could come to that conclusion... I'm saying I don't use that season as an excuse for why we don't need improvement at LB. I use the fact that I have watched us play as a reason for why we need improvement and seriously question what team you have been watching if you don't think we need improvement at LB. Call me crazy, but I think every level on the defense helps the others. Good DL will make the DBs look good. Good DBs help the DL. Good linebackers help both.. and so on.
1) Then what was your point? All players are unproven at some point in their careers.

2) If you think that we were fortunate to win against GB and SF, then we watched completely different ballgames. We completely dominated GB. DOMINATED. So, let's say they did have a bad game more than we had a good game, the regular season game came down to the closing seconds. We then went on to trounce both those teams in '12. Also, how were we soooo close to not making the playoffs? We didn't need any help to get in. We weren't a wildcard team. We just needed to win a couple of games at the end of the season, because we dropped one a few weeks earlier.

3) Would better LBs have helped? Yes, marginally. But, not nearly as much as strengthening the secondary and the DL. Good LBs probably have the least impact on the other units of the defense. A good DL will make both the LBs and the secondary look better. Good LBs won't really make the secondary look that much better, and only make a DL look a little better than they are. Putting the onus on the LB corps as a way of improving the overall success of the defense is misguided. It all starts up front, then on the outside.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 03:52 PM
Would better LBs have helped? Yes, marginally. But, not nearly as much as strengthening the secondary and the DL. Good LBs probably have the least impact on the other units of the defense. A good DL will make both the LBs and the secondary look better. Good LBs won't really make the secondary look that much better, and only make a DL look a little better than they are. Putting the onus on the LB corps as a way of improving the overall success of the defense is misguided. It all starts up front, then on the outside.

I know you are directing this at BlueSabbath, but I think the offenses are changing to the point where linebackers are becoming more important.

Linebackers responsibilities:

Stopping the run
Covering backs on pass plays (e.g.,, LeSean McCoy)
Covering tight ends (Graham, Gronkowski, Vernon Davis, etc).
Containment of QBs (Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Vick, etc).
Situational pass rushing.

The league's offenses continue to change, and offensive coordinators have studied what the Giants do, and have adjusted....we saw it Week 1 when Romo slanted the Giants to death.....and really, Romo was just doing what Brees does to us on regular basis.

By all means, a dominant defensive front four is a tremendous advantage....it gives the DC so many options because they don't need to blitz, or use an 8 man box, etc.

But, offenses don't need 5 step drops and deep bombs to score....they've got backs, tight ends, and slot receivers criss-crossing the middle of the field where it's up to linebackers and safeties to get the job done.

And now, with guys like RG3 and Russell Wilson, you just can't expect a 4 man front to handle guys that can beat you with their arms and their legs....you need more speed than even the best DE's can offer.

Whether we're talking about fast linebackers, or big safeties, the new NFL defender needs to be both big and fast to successfully cover the middle of the field...and that's an area that neither a defensive lineman nor a cornerback is going to help.

Drez
05-16-2013, 04:08 PM
I know you are directing this at BlueSabbath, but I think the offenses are changing to the point where linebackers will become much important.

Linebackers responsibilities:

Stopping the run
Covering backs on pass plays (e.g.,, LeSean McCoy)
Covering tight ends (Graham, Gronkowski, Vernon Davis, etc).
Containment of QBs (Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Vick, etc).
Situational pass rushing.

The league's offenses continue to change, and offensive coordinators have studied what the Giants do, and have adjusted....we saw it Week 1 when Rhomo slanted the Giants to death.....and really, Romo was just doing what Brees does to us on regular basis.

By all means, a dominant defensive front four is a tremendous advantage....it gives the DC so many options because they don't need to blitz, or use an 8 man box, etc.

But, offenses don't need 5 step drops and deep bombs to score....they've got backs, tight ends, and slot receivers criss-crossing the middle of the field where it's up to linebackers and safeties to get the job done.

And now, with guys like RG3 and Russell Wilson, you just can't expect a 4 man front to handle guys that can beat you with their arms and their legs....you need more speed than even the best DE's can offer.


Whether we're talking about fast linebackers, or big safeties, the new NFL defender needs to be both big and fast....and that's an area that neither a defensive lineman nor a cornerback is going to help.Hybrid Safeties, much like a Deon Grant or a Cooper Taylor could fulfill most of those roles.

And we mostly have big corners. I think Hosley is the only CB we've drafted in ages that was under 6'.

There aren't many players in the NFL, LB or otherwise, that can keep up with Griffin. Most of your athletic LBs, and even DEs, should be able to stay with Wilson.

BlueSanta
05-16-2013, 10:27 PM
Wasn't part of the reason for the injury due to the fact he shot up to 240lbs in the offseason?

Simply put, no it wasn't. He injured it and the recovery took longer than expected.


I also very seriously doubt he will be a MLB, He is an extremely mobile as well as good in space. He belongs at the WLB spot.Why change him and adapt him to another position which is really quite different and has a different skillset requirement?

Jwill is a natural WLB, let him stay there. Besides, you can argue that in today's NFL, in the 43, the WLB is typically more important than the MLB.

BlueSanta
05-16-2013, 10:39 PM
Stopping the run
Covering backs on pass plays (e.g.,, LeSean McCoy)
Covering tight ends (Graham, Gronkowski, Vernon Davis, etc).
Containment of QBs (Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Vick, etc).
Situational pass rushing.

.

That's is literally the job description for everyone on the defense except maybe the Dline(in some cases)

Safeties do all of those things too, as do Corners.

You are way oversimplifying.

joemorrisforprez
05-16-2013, 11:43 PM
That's is literally the job description for everyone on the defense except maybe the Dline(in some cases)

Safeties do all of those things too, as do Corners.

You are way oversimplifying.

Linebackers are generally faster than defensive ends, and bigger/more physical than corners. Today's top tight ends are mismatches for smaller defenders. Similarly, pass-receiving running backs cannot be covered by defensive lineman.

And you can't always commit safeties near the line of scrimmage when they are needed to support corners over the top against wide receivers, not to mention, generally speaking, that a safety is not as effective against a power running game as a linebacker is.

Throw the RG3 types into the mix, and the need for fast linebackers is growing, not declining.

BlueSanta
05-17-2013, 12:36 AM
Linebackers are generally faster than defensive ends, and bigger/more physical than corners. Today's top tight ends are mismatches for smaller defenders. Similarly, pass-receiving running backs cannot be covered by defensive lineman.

And you can't always commit safeties near the line of scrimmage when they are needed to support corners over the top against wide receivers, not to mention, generally speaking, that a safety is not as effective against a power running game as a linebacker is.

Throw the RG3 types into the mix, and the need for fast linebackers is growing, not declining.

Ok, not sure that has to do with what I said, but ok.

Drez
05-17-2013, 06:57 AM
Linebackers are generally faster than defensive ends, and bigger/more physical than corners. Today's top tight ends are mismatches for smaller defenders. Similarly, pass-receiving running backs cannot be covered by defensive lineman.

And you can't always commit safeties near the line of scrimmage when they are needed to support corners over the top against wide receivers, not to mention, generally speaking, that a safety is not as effective against a power running game as a linebacker is.

Throw the RG3 types into the mix, and the need for fast linebackers is growing, not declining.The pass catching TEs are generally mismatches against LBs. LBs will still be slower than a guy like RG3.

We have fast LBs.

JesseJames
05-17-2013, 10:41 AM
So, who are the LB's that you wanted to pick instead of the guys that we actually drafted? if you mean in the last 12 years or so then the list would be pretty long because other than the great Clint Sintim pick in rd 2 we don't draft early enough to get whatever little impact talent that is available..

JesseJames
05-17-2013, 10:48 AM
Lol, I did no such thing. I actually agree the unit needs to be improved, but the extent everyone is blaming defensive and overall team woes on just the LB'ers on this board is ridiculous. The people here whining constantly about LB'ers being the key to overall team improvement makes those doing it sound like the 8 year old girls, not me.

Of course LB'er upgrades would have helped. An upgrade at the Defensive tackle position and all the secondary positions would have also helped. An O-line that could block like the 12-4 2008 team did would have also helped. Two RB's not nearing 30 and hurt the majority of the year forcing virtually no practice time for them would also have helped. Consistent QB play for all 4 quarters instead of just the 4th would have also helped. Creative game planning and an ability to make adjustments at times would have also helped.
with poor play from the defensive line like we had last season it just exposed how bad our LBers are and until that gets fixed it will be more of the same, hopefully the new additions to the D line will change that....

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Ok, not sure that has to do with what I said, but ok.

Again, sorry you're not understanding me.

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 01:28 PM
The pass catching TEs are generally mismatches against LBs. LBs will still be slower than a guy like RG3.

We have fast LBs.

JWill is fast, but I wouldn't consider him seasoned until I see a full season under his belt. He was a part timer in 2011, and injured for a large part of 2012.

Rivers has speed, but again, he's been on the bench far more than on the field.

Paysinger and Herzlich have not proven they are NFL starters.

Connor is a questionable upgrade at best over Chase.

The NCAA is no longer behind the curve in terms of linebackers....the guys coming out can run and cover today's TEs.

If anything, the NFL was behind the curve (and maybe still is) in identifying linebackers that can neutralize today's fast break offenses.

Aaron Curry is a good example....he's a one-way banger that is effective in run support but confused in coverage.

GameTime
05-17-2013, 01:33 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9271344

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/51344/giants-red-flag-linebacker




I rest my case.
I think we all know this......
not a mystery really

BlueSanta
05-17-2013, 01:48 PM
Again, sorry you're not understanding me.
Lol right. I understand everything you said. It just has nothing to do with that I said. I am not at all sure why you quoted me.

You avoided the point of my post completely by changing the subject tho, good job

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 01:53 PM
Lol right. I understand everything you said. It just has nothing to do with that I said. I am not at all sure why you quoted me.

You avoided the point of my post completely by changing the subject tho, good job

You take my comments and either edit them heavily, or take them out of context. Then, you make a generally sarcastic or otherwise confrontational remark.

This is clearly not productive, so I'm going to drop it on my side.

BlueSanta
05-17-2013, 02:05 PM
You take my comments and either edit them heavily, or take them out of context. Then, you make a generally sarcastic or otherwise confrontational remark.

This is clearly not productive, so I'm going to drop it on my side.
Huh?


If you make 5 points and I disagree heavily with 1 of them and in my reply remove the other 4 so as to be concise about what I do not agree with, it isn't "heavily editing" it is keeping the boards clean.

Breezely
05-17-2013, 02:10 PM
"....It's also important to note the Giants spend less time every year in their base 4-3 as passing offenses continue to get more complex and they have to run nickel corners and third safeties into the lineup to offset them. So linebacker is, by definition, a low-priority item for them."

It appears that everyone close to the Giants are saying the same thing. There is not a priority on the LB position. I guarantee, if there was a linebacker in the draft that the Giants were crazy about, they would have got him. I believe they are happy with the linebackers they have and maybe can strike gold with Aaron Curry.

tcseacliff
05-17-2013, 11:55 PM
Oh crap ! another team with LB er issues! will it ever end!

Titans linebacker Moise Fokou (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5438/moise-fokou) faces an October trial date (http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/crime/nfl-player-moise-fokou-charged-with-dui.php) on charges of driving under the influence and operating a vehicle while impaired in connection with an alleged incident earlier this year in Washington D.C., the Washingtonian magazine reported Friday.
According to the Washingtonian, Fokou was cited in January after being pulled over by the United States Park Police.
Fokou, 27, signed with the Titans in March. He is entering his fifth NFL season.
At attorney for Fokou, Mark Schamel, told both the Washingtonian and the Nashville Tennessean (http://blogs.tennessean.com/titans/2013/05/17/foiku-charged-with-dui/) that Fokou will be “cleared” of the charges.
“Mr. Fokou is innocent,” Schamel told the Washingtonian.
The Titans told The Tennessean that they were “aware of the report” regarding Fokou.

Sovereign
05-18-2013, 02:07 AM
Right football experts are smarter than the actual team. No wonder why they write articles.

EL BEEZERS WIN THE SUPER BLOW GUYZ.

JesseJames
05-18-2013, 10:30 AM
So it's the last remaining concern after they filled heir biggest need. A better DL. It's hard to remember the pastime they had a really good LB but not to hard to remember that they won 2 of he last 6 Championships. That is all that matters.

you know what really matters, how the team played last year.....

CowboysSuck
05-18-2013, 10:42 AM
Ok the Giants no longer have Taylor, Carson, Banks, or even Armstead, Barrow, or Pierce. We get it. Its time to move on to camp and see what we actually have. No sense in calling out the FO before we see the results of this offseason.

CowboysSuck
05-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Every team, every year, year in and year out, can't have great LB's. Sacrifices must be made every year. a solid DL, or a decent LB corp? Respectable O-Line or a TE phenom? Athletic safety, or a promising young RB? ....the FO knows what they are doing and this offseason is no exception.

joemorrisforprez
05-18-2013, 07:44 PM
Every team, every year, year in and year out, can't have great LB's. Sacrifices must be made every year. a solid DL, or a decent LB corp? Respectable O-Line or a TE phenom? Athletic safety, or a promising young RB? ....the FO knows what they are doing and this offseason is no exception.

Right now, people that cover the NFL are indicating linebacker is a flag for the Giants, and I would agree. We'll see what emerges during training camp and the preseason games.

Presently, the unit is long on hope, and short on stats.

dsd28
05-18-2013, 08:17 PM
due to the salary cap, roster management is essentially a zero sum proposition. therefore, which position(s) would you weaken in order to sign better LBs?

joemorrisforprez
05-18-2013, 09:39 PM
due to the salary cap, roster management is essentially a zero sum proposition. therefore, which position(s) would you weaken in order to sign better LBs?

We are currently under the cap right now, but just to go with your question, I think some guys are getting more than they are worth. Webster and Rolle made a combined $ 18+ million last year. Boley made $5.6 million, and he is gone, because the math doesn't support his contribution to the team last season. But Tuck made $7.5 million...and had a lousy year.

But then, you've got unproven guys like Rivers making $2.5 million... but someone like Chase made less than $600,000, and we couldn't find a little extra dough to keep him around. J Williams is making less than $500,000.....and he's probably the best linebacker on the team at this point.

I guess my point is the Giants don't need to break the bank to upgrade the position.

B&RWarrior
05-19-2013, 12:03 AM
Every team, every year, year in and year out, can't have great LB's. Sacrifices must be made every year. a solid DL, or a decent LB corp? Respectable O-Line or a TE phenom? Athletic safety, or a promising young RB? ....the FO knows what they are doing and this offseason is no exception.

All of this whining about Arthur Brown. I was upset when we didn't draft Levonte David last year. Watching Wilson and his flashes of potential gave me hope that we made the right choice. David is a beast as I thought he would be, but we got a good player in Wilson. Hank will be a beast. We got the right guy.

JesseJames
05-19-2013, 10:32 AM
for the last few years teams may have viewed the LBer position as being not as important as in years before but with the offenses evolving into run option it will put more pressure on the LBers and teams will have to upgrade their thinking to stop this type of offense thus the advent of tougher, talented and speedy LBers..

RoanokeFan
05-19-2013, 10:35 AM
We are currently under the cap right now, but just to go with your question, I think some guys are getting more than they are worth. Webster and Rolle made a combined $ 18+ million last year. Boley made $5.6 million, and he is gone, because the math doesn't support his contribution to the team last season. But Tuck made $7.5 million...and had a lousy year.

But then, you've got unproven guys like Rivers making $2.5 million... but someone like Chase made less than $600,000, and we couldn't find a little extra dough to keep him around. J Williams is making less than $500,000.....and he's probably the best linebacker on the team at this point.

I guess my point is the Giants don't need to break the bank to upgrade the position.


Like the draft, contracts are a crap shoot in the sense that no one can predict how much of the past is going to carry through into the future. When contracts are negotiated so much is just assumed or hoped for.

DT2012
05-19-2013, 01:54 PM
Oh my god!!!!!!!! All this crap about LBers cause ESPN said it is a Red Flag for the Giants. Aren't ESPN the same group who every year pick the Cowboys or Eagles to win the NFC east title and possibly go to the Super Bowl. Are we really taking what ESPN has to say as the end all be all on what the Giants should be doing about their LBers. The Giants have invested their money in others positions maybe some of you who are crazy about LBer don't realize that. Those of you who feel LBer is such a big deal I ask you who would you like to give up or let go to get that stud LBer or upgrade. Should the Giants let Cruz walk away. Do they not offer JPP a large deal when its time for his new contract, How about Hakeem Nicks should the Giants let some other team give him the money he deserves just so those of you can have your LBer cause you believe it to be soooo important. I think the only other thing the Giants need now is another good cornerback and the Defense is fine. The DL should be much better this year especially with the big run stuffers and space eater the Giants have now to hold up the line of scrimmage. We will see how the LBers do this year if the DL can keep them free on the field they should be able to make plays.

joemorrisforprez
05-19-2013, 03:19 PM
Oh my god!!!!!!!! All this crap about LBers cause ESPN said it is a Red Flag for the Giants. Aren't ESPN the same group who every year pick the Cowboys or Eagles to win the NFC east title and possibly go to the Super Bowl. Are we really taking what ESPN has to say as the end all be all on what the Giants should be doing about their LBers. The Giants have invested their money in others positions maybe some of you who are crazy about LBer don't realize that. Those of you who feel LBer is such a big deal I ask you who would you like to give up or let go to get that stud LBer or upgrade. Should the Giants let Cruz walk away. Do they not offer JPP a large deal when its time for his new contract, How about Hakeem Nicks should the Giants let some other team give him the money he deserves just so those of you can have your LBer cause you believe it to be soooo important. I think the only other thing the Giants need now is another good cornerback and the Defense is fine. The DL should be much better this year especially with the big run stuffers and space eater the Giants have now to hold up the line of scrimmage. We will see how the LBers do this year if the DL can keep them free on the field they should be able to make plays.

As I mentioned above, J.Williams is probably the best linebacker on the team, and his 2013 salary is $555,000. So, I think the Giants have a little room there.

Most football analysts consider linebacker to be the weakest spot on the Giants. Let's hope that the unit is improved in 2013, because otherwise, teams will target it just like they did in 2012, beginning in Week 1 v. the Cowboys.

giantsforce
05-19-2013, 03:51 PM
Linebackers? What Linebackers? We don't need no stinking Linebackers!