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View Full Version : Will cruz be effective if he misses all of camp?



appodictic
05-16-2013, 11:07 PM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.

jomo
05-16-2013, 11:09 PM
I worry about hamstrings with guys who don't ramp it up smoothly. Reevis went down after his last hold out and he was hampered all season with it.

Rudyy
05-16-2013, 11:17 PM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.If we didn't have a no show at Atlanta we would have made the playoffs. Had Tynes made that FG in Philly we would of made the playoffs. Had Eli not been crazy incomsistent all year we would have made the playoffs. Had the defense would of stopped ANYONE...we would have made the playoffs.

Drez
05-16-2013, 11:26 PM
The chemistry will come back quickly enough. Even though the playbook changes some year to year, he knows the system so it won't take him long to learn anything new in it (saying he doesn't have the playbook already).

Drez
05-16-2013, 11:27 PM
If we didn't have a no show at Atlanta we would have made the playoffs. Had Tynes made that FG in Philly we would of made the playoffs. Had Eli not been crazy incomsistent all year we would have made the playoffs. Had the defense would of stopped ANYONE...we would have made the playoffs.Yeah, we were literally one play away in several games last year from being 11-5 or 12-4.

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 12:52 AM
I worry about hamstrings with guys who don't ramp it up smoothly. Reevis went down after his last hold out and he was hampered all season with it.

Exactly.

If Cruz doesn't report on time, the chances of him having conditioning issues increases. Hamstrings are very common problems with holdouts.

BlueBlooded1979
05-17-2013, 03:03 AM
I worry about hamstrings with guys who don't ramp it up smoothly. Reevis went down after his last hold out and he was hampered all season with it.

This. Holdout history shows a lot of guys that tweak something after missing camp.

Rat_bastich
05-17-2013, 03:07 AM
The chemistry will come back quickly enough. Even though the playbook changes some year to year, he knows the system so it won't take him long to learn anything new in it (saying he doesn't have the playbook already).

And, to piggyback on this...the plays are usually the same from year to year and every team has a variation of a play another team runs. Terminology is what is usually different. If you have been playing football as long as Cruz has(high school, college and pros) then it is the same routine.

fizzlesticks
05-17-2013, 03:34 AM
This. Holdout history shows a lot of guys that tweak something after missing camp.

And more people tweak something after going to camp, it's part of the game, **** happens.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 07:38 AM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.

At this moment, Cruz hasn't missed anything except strength and conditioning which he can do on his own. He is one of three receivers who wn=ent to Duke to work with Eli several weeks ago. What exactly is "the whole dumb money thing"?

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 07:39 AM
Exactly.

If Cruz doesn't report on time, the chances of him having conditioning issues increases. Hamstrings are very common problems with holdouts.

Do we just assume he's not working out on his own? Who else hasn't participated in voluntary OTAs?

njersey
05-17-2013, 10:20 AM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.

Cruz in not effective without Nicks.

Buddy333
05-17-2013, 10:33 AM
Do we just assume he's not working out on his own? Who else hasn't participated in voluntary OTAs?This happens a lot though. Do we assume that the many players that have held out only to come back and get injured where not working out?

FBomb
05-17-2013, 10:42 AM
Cruz isn't going to miss anything. He will sign his contract and be back with the team by this time next week........I have spoken.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqzxHyiP8xC4r3GoTXLGHnAJbjTXz0a sjce39_bz4fiYFfmIHo

Joe Morrison
05-17-2013, 11:20 AM
If Cruz holds out he will get injured, when is the last time you saw a hold out come in in September and not go down with some type of injury?

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 11:43 AM
This happens a lot though. Do we assume that the many players that have held out only to come back and get injured where not working out?

For that to have any validity, every player who does work out would have to never get injured.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 11:43 AM
If Cruz holds out he will get injured, when is the last time you saw a hold out come in in September and not go down with some type of injury?

Have any names?

Red Dog
05-17-2013, 11:50 AM
Cruz post, again? YAWN!

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 11:51 AM
Cruz post, again? YAWN!

And yet here you are

Shimmy
05-17-2013, 01:11 PM
You guys realize Cruz played (2) pre-seasons with the Giants before he even recorded a catch in a regular season game? People tend to forget in the 2010 season (when he had his 3 TD games vs. the Jets in August) that he had hamstring issues and only played 5 games, with no recorded catch, before sitting out the rest of the season.

His physicality is nothing to worry about, even if he is missing these little OTAs. He knows what workout routine he needs to be in, and he can do that without someone wiping his ***.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 01:18 PM
You guys realize Cruz played (2) pre-seasons with the Giants before he was even on the final roster, correct? You realize he went a whole season without playing a game before having his breakout season?

His physicality is nothing to worry about, even if he is missing these little OTAs. He knows what workout routine he needs to be in, and he can do that without someone wiping his ***.

It's really unlikely Cruz will not be in camp. I would be surprised if he doesn't sign a long term deal before June. But all the players need to make themselves available for mandatory training and I expect he will as well. Recent reports suggest a deal may be close at hand, let's hope so.

GiantRoc
05-17-2013, 02:14 PM
He WILL play football. Have you seen his commercials? He has no choice. The kid can't act a lick. :D

BigBlue1971
05-17-2013, 02:28 PM
if Cruz holds out from training camp he will most likely hold out for regular season games as well!

I seriously doubt he will do either but if he did he not only wouldnt be effective in the offense it also puts him in a different light with the Giants and for that matter any other team from a bargaining position!

im glad this is all hypothetical cuz it think Cruz is gonna burn it up this year!

joemorrisforprez
05-17-2013, 02:39 PM
Do we just assume he's not working out on his own? Who else hasn't participated in voluntary OTAs?

I'm talking about what would happen if he held out of camp. Purely hypothetical at this point. But guys that hold out usually pull hamstrings, groins, etc.

FishinTheSalt
05-17-2013, 02:52 PM
This was from nfl am interview with mara at 12:30 today.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000200139/article/victor-cruz-new-york-giants-reach-interesting-phase-of-talks

He's still confident and doesn't think it's the usual type of dispute and it will get done soon. Also some talk of pugh, nassib, and Woodson. Nothing we didn't already know on them.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 03:04 PM
I'm talking about what would happen if he held out of camp. Purely hypothetical at this point. But guys that hold out usually pull hamstrings, groins, etc.

Who are these "guys" and are they injured disproportionately to the player population who doesn't hold out?

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 03:12 PM
This was from nfl am interview with mara at 12:30 today.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000200139/article/victor-cruz-new-york-giants-reach-interesting-phase-of-talks

He's still confident and doesn't think it's the usual type of dispute and it will get done soon. Also some talk of pugh, nassib, and Woodson. Nothing we didn't already know on them.


At the end of the Cruz section the writer asks about how both sides make peace, inferring there are hard feelings or bad blood on one or both sides.. There has been no shred of evidence that is the case, in fact Jerry Reese has publicly said the complete opposite. Cruz has been seen publicly with Coughlin and Mara. This is the problem with media speculation.

Buddy333
05-17-2013, 04:42 PM
Who are these "guys" and are they injured disproportionately to the player population who doesn't hold out?Its not always a pull and not always directly related to the layoff but a lot of these holdouts seem to get injured.

Hooligans
05-17-2013, 05:47 PM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.

No, he won't and history shows he will get hurt (groin or hamstring). If it comes to that, the Giants will move on and start Randle.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 05:53 PM
Its not always a pull and not always directly related to the layoff but a lot of these holdouts seem to get injured.

I think that's what we think rather than what we know then

Buddy333
05-17-2013, 06:06 PM
I think that's what we think rather than what we know thenRevis? MJD?

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 06:10 PM
Revis? MJD?

I don't think two players is a very good sampling, but I hope we get through the season with as few injuries as is possible. How do those two injuries compare to the player populatoin who didn't hold out.

Buddy333
05-17-2013, 06:13 PM
Chris Johnson?

Buddy333
05-17-2013, 06:14 PM
Steven Jackson.

Joe Morrison
05-17-2013, 07:52 PM
Have any names?
I'm asking for a name that didn't get injured, still waiting.

GiantRoc
05-17-2013, 08:03 PM
I have never thought of Cruz as having a big head. I would be shocked if he doesn't start practicing with everyone else. One way or the other he will be under some contract with the Giants very soon.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 08:09 PM
I'm asking for a name that didn't get injured, still waiting.

Michael Strahan

Toadofsteel
05-17-2013, 08:12 PM
Yeah, we were literally one play away in several games last year from being 11-5 or 12-4.

Also one play away in 2 games from being 7-9 (Dez fingertip, Eli's 80 yarder to cruz vs skins)

Toadofsteel
05-17-2013, 08:13 PM
Michael Strahan

His hamstring/groin was held together by tape by the end of the season,he just played through it...

B&RWarrior
05-17-2013, 08:51 PM
If Cruz holds out he will get injured, when is the last time you saw a hold out come in in September and not go down with some type of injury?

Vincent Jackson held out with San Diego. He came back and played injury free if I'm not mistaken. I think he held out way past September too.

Drez
05-17-2013, 08:59 PM
Also one play away in 2 games from being 7-9 (Dez fingertip, Eli's 80 yarder to cruz vs skins)Considering how much time was left in that Redskins game, that's a bad example. The Moss fumble in that game would be more accurate for your example, lol.

RoanokeFan
05-17-2013, 09:02 PM
His hamstring/groin was held together by tape by the end of the season,he just played through it... That can be said of many players.

Joe Morrison
05-18-2013, 04:36 PM
Vincent Jackson held out with San Diego. He came back and played injury free if I'm not mistaken. I think he held out way past September too.
He doesn't even play for the Bolts anymore.

Joe Morrison
05-18-2013, 04:39 PM
He doesn't even play for the Bolts anymore.
I am guessing they year in question is 2010 when he played 5 games.

Drez
05-18-2013, 08:02 PM
I am guessing they year in question is 2010 when he played 5 games.Yup, he "held out" until the very last week he could before losing his accrued year.

joemorrisforprez
05-18-2013, 08:41 PM
Who are these "guys" and are they injured disproportionately to the player population who doesn't hold out?

I believe there is a correlation between missing the conditioning a player receives in training camp, and the likelihood to sustain conditioning-related industries such as groins and hamstrings.

RoanokeFan
05-18-2013, 09:33 PM
I believe there is a correlation between missing the conditioning a player receives in training camp, and the likelihood to sustain conditioning-related industries such as groins and hamstrings.

This I can buy. But to say there is a significant issue, shouldn't we know if they are injured at a greater rate than those players who don't hold out?

appodictic
05-18-2013, 10:20 PM
My only concern is that we know Eli is streaky, we do not need stuff stopping him from getting into a groov

joemorrisforprez
05-18-2013, 10:30 PM
This I can buy. But to say there is a significant issue, shouldn't we know if they are injured at a greater rate than those players who don't hold out?

I'd like to see the stats on it.

I think in terms of conditioning, training with their teammates, etc., holding out of camp just sets a player back.

I think there are some exceptions - Michael Strahan, for example. But in Strahan's case, you're talking about a guy who was in the league for many years at that point...in his case, missing camp might have even helped his body a bit.

But a young receiver like Cruz, I think it hurts.

Again, this is all hypothetical, of course. But in general, a player - especially a young skill guy like Cruz - won't help their regular season performance by holding out.

RoanokeFan
05-19-2013, 07:44 AM
I'd like to see the stats on it.

I think in terms of conditioning, training with their teammates, etc., holding out of camp just sets a player back.

I think there are some exceptions - Michael Strahan, for example. But in Strahan's case, you're talking about a guy who was in the league for many years at that point...in his case, missing camp might have even helped his body a bit.

But a young receiver like Cruz, I think it hurts.

Again, this is all hypothetical, of course. But in general, a player - especially a young skill guy like Cruz - won't help their regular season performance by holding out.

I remember vividly at the start of last season the wailing and gnashing over the piss poor strength and conditioning staff "allowing" our players to have hamstrings and like injuries. I know for a fact they all couldn't have "held out." I think part of the problem is players not doing what they are told to do in terms of conditioning. I also think the punishment their bodies take during the course of a season adds up over time.

It would be an interesting study to see the comparison between the groups although the hold out group is going to be significantly smaller.

As to the older or younger player I think conditioning is as important for both. I would agree a veteran might not need as many practice reps but I don't see conditioning being any different.

My medical degree should be here by Wednesday.

ELI_Iz_God
05-20-2013, 02:36 AM
At this moment to Cruz have a playbook? Is he conditioning himself? You know last year if we would not have dropped that first dallas game we would have had a shot at the playoffs right? We know cruz is a great player but if he holds out how rusty will he be when the season starts? How much chemistry will he have lost with eli? Besides the entire dumb money thing I really wish he was in camp right now.


He'll pull a hammy his first game...just watch...

Buddy333
05-20-2013, 08:25 AM
Think the problem is that trying to get ready for the season on your own and trying to get ready with the team are two different things. A lot of guys do seem to hold out nod get injured or not perform well that season. Not all, but it hs happened to some big name players.

rebelfan1966
05-20-2013, 04:20 PM
I think Cruz needs to get his butt in gear ang get back to work....