PDA

View Full Version : Is Eli A Hall of Famer? Interesting article



Pages : [1] 2 3

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:12 PM
Even though Eli's stats fall short of the top 5 in this era who might get in , they think there is a chance.

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/05/21/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-an-nfl-hall-of-famer/



and please dont get this thread locked, civilized discussions with no name calling or personal attacks please.

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 01:12 PM
oh god

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 01:14 PM
The fact that is even a discussion halfway through Elis career speaks for itself.

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:16 PM
Close, don't close? Hmmmmmm

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:16 PM
oh god lol lets hope people behave.



I think Eli as it stands right now falls short. IMO Eli will need a league MVP or some years of top play like 2011. The game has changed and QB's are throwing for more and more now.

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:17 PM
Close, don't close? Hmmmmmmlol, well we shouldn't have to close on topic giants threads, we should be giving vacations to those who can not discuss in a civil manner.

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:17 PM
lol lets hope people behave.



I think Eli as it stands right now falls short. IMO Eli will need a league MVP or some years of top play like 2011. The game has changed and QB's are throwing for more and more now.

If this results in "mischief" can I ban you?

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:19 PM
If this results in "mischief" can I ban you? I can't control how others behave Roa. I wont be name calling and attacking others.

gumby74
05-22-2013, 01:20 PM
I'll behave I promise.

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:21 PM
I can't control how others behave Roa. I wont be name calling and attacking others.

I am going to hold you to that :)

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
I love ya Harooni but this thread must be locked immediately.
Eli should not be discussed for a while.

It brings out the devil in too many posters.

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
I love ya Harooni but this thread must be locked immediately.
Eli should not be discussed for a while.

It brings out the devil in too many posters.

Well, in some circles, that would be you

Rudyy
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
Interesting how he has similar numbers to previous quarterbacks who are deemed "great". Times have changed however and it is more passer friendly. IMO I believe another SB and 2011 like play from here on out will put him in. We shall see in the end.

Cool Papa B.
05-22-2013, 01:25 PM
Oh no. Not again!

another 100+ page Eli thread. And on a topic we've had and beaten to death before. Too much time on our hands before camp begins I guess.

giantsfan420
05-22-2013, 01:27 PM
sorry, any site that is named "rantsports" is to be taken as pure subjectivity and not objective. for all we know harooni posted that.


lemme go find a post on some MB somewhere that says Eli is the best QB of all time, and post it as a link trying to use it as support to the premise itself lol

giantsfan420
05-22-2013, 01:29 PM
and i think the argument is fair on both sides to be honest. think its silly to discuss now as well. when his career is over, the picture will be way clearer whether he deserves it or not

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:32 PM
and i think the argument is fair on both sides to be honest. think its silly to discuss now as well. when his career is over, the picture will be way clearer whether he deserves it or not

+1

GameTime
05-22-2013, 01:33 PM
His career isnt over and IMO if he keeps going the way he has he will be in the HOF and it will be deserved....

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:36 PM
Well, in some circles, that would be you
I never said just other posters.

fansince69
05-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Didn't we just have this same topic?

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Interesting how he has similar numbers to previous quarterbacks who are deemed "great". Times have changed however and it is more passer friendly. IMO I believe another SB and 2011 like play from here on out will put him in. We shall see in the end.

i agree, i think his hot and cold streaks and rough first season and a half hurt him. high career ints, comp percentage. these days you will see guys like stafford throwing 5000 yards. different era , sillly to compare to QB's 15-30 years ago.

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:47 PM
i think we all know he has a chance to build his stats and get in, however the question is if eli this season got a solar plexus and was done. would he get in as it stands now. and i think thats a no.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:50 PM
Didn't we just have this same topic?
There is a trail of locked threads to prove it.

Rudyy
05-22-2013, 01:52 PM
i think we all know he has a chance to build his stats and get in, however the question is if eli this season got a solar plexus and was done. would he get in as it stands now. and i think thats a no.Fortunately, Eli is not retired right now.

Rudyy
05-22-2013, 01:52 PM
There is a trail of locked threads to prove it.hahaha

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:54 PM
Unfortunately, Eli is not retired right now.

http://fitzandvig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/osi-shocked.jpg

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:54 PM
I never said just other posters.

I'm Mr. Neutral lol

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
I'm Mr. Neutral lol
I don't think so RF. You are just more crafty in your choice of words.

Harooni
05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
I'm Mr. Neutral lol Roa we all know which side blows up and starts calling people names and trolls.

Rudyy
05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
http://fitzandvig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/osi-shocked.jpgDad?

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 01:56 PM
Didn't we just have this same topic?


The question is how many times. It gets sick 5-10 pages in. I sometimes read for the entertainment value.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:56 PM
Roa we all know which side blows up and starts calling people names and trolls.
Uh Oh.......Here we go................

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 01:58 PM
I don't think so RF. You are just more crafty in your choice of words.

On this topic, I am in the "wait till he retires"camp

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 01:59 PM
On this topic, I am in the "wait till he retires"camp

As I said.......very crafty.

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 02:00 PM
2 types of eli bashers.

1. Those who make logical and fair criticisms.
2. Those who criticize to to get a rise out of Eli Homers. (Harooni)

If you're coming from a good place, there's nothing wrong with a little criticism.

just my $0.02

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 02:01 PM
As I said.......very crafty.

Assuming those stats are accurate, it does provide some valid comparisons. When the time comes, Eli will be compared more to his contemporaries than statistical averages I would think.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:02 PM
2 types of eli bashers.

1. Those who make logical and fair criticisms.
2. Those who criticize to to get a rise out of Eli Homers. (Harooni)

If you're coming from a good place, there's nothing wrong with a little criticism.

just my $0.02

There is nothing wrong with the place Harooni is coming from at all.

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 02:02 PM
There is nothing wrong with the place Harooni is coming from at all.

right, because most of the time you come from the same place.

Rudyy
05-22-2013, 02:03 PM
2 types of eli bashers.1. Those who make logical and fair criticisms. 2. Those who criticize to to get a rise out of Eli Homers. (Harooni)If you're coming from a good place, there's nothing wrong with a little criticism. just my $0.02Harooni is actually being quite rational and might I add "sane" in his statements...let's see how long that holds up...And I'm not a "realist" either.

Sovereign
05-22-2013, 02:03 PM
If he has another 2011 in him then yes. If it's closer to 2012 then no.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:05 PM
Assuming those stats are accurate, it does provide some valid comparisons. When the time comes, Eli will be compared more to his contemporaries than statistical averages I would think.
Speaking generally (and not about any specific player) today's QB's are going to put up huge numbers. Slightly above average QB's will end up passing Marino and Favre because of the pass friendly rules.

I would say (again....not speaking of any specific player.........really....I'm not) a QB would have to be among the very best of this era to be a true Hall of Famer.
That has always been true.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:06 PM
right, because most of the time you come from the same place.
When have you ever seen a post from Harooni that ever called any other poster a name?
When have you ever seen a post from him that was mean spirited in any way?
As a matter of fact, all his posts are very good natured.

We could all learn from that my friend.

TCHOF
05-22-2013, 02:07 PM
Does this issue have to be discussed every single day? Jeez . . . .

Buddy333
05-22-2013, 02:07 PM
While he may no be the best QB of his era the two Super Bowl MVP's will get him in eventually.

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 02:12 PM
When have you ever seen a post from Harooni that ever called any other poster a name?
When have you ever seen a post from him that was mean spirited in any way?
As a matter of fact, all his posts are very good natured.

We could all learn from that my friend.

No i completely agree. No name calling. He says things/starts threads sometimes just to get a rise out of people. He throws the bait and some people bite. For example, THIS THREAD!

Eli TO Shockey
05-22-2013, 02:13 PM
While he may no be the best QB of his era the two Super Bowl MVP's will get him in eventually.

Also gotta wonder what will happen over the next 5-7 years. Another SB and it's a no brainer.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:15 PM
No i completely agree. No name calling. He says things/starts threads sometimes just to get a rise out of people. He throws the bait and some people bite. For example, THIS THREAD!
Yes but we are not wild animals or Pavlovian dog's. We are supposed to figure that stuff out as playful banter and respond in kind.
I wish I had his restraint. The guy takes more crap from fellow posters and never lashes out at them.

As I said, I wish I could do that. He is to be appreciated in my opinion.

Rant over.

giantscolombia
05-22-2013, 02:16 PM
We should create some sort of waiver... if you misbehave in this thread you will be banned and ridiculed by the whole board.
join the banter if you dare...

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:17 PM
We should create some sort of waiver... if you misbehave in this thread you will be banned and ridiculed by the whole board.
join the banter if you dare...
I'm staying away from the subject of the thread.

Far far away.......

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 02:21 PM
Speaking generally (and not about any specific player) today's QB's are going to put up huge numbers. Slightly above average QB's will end up passing Marino and Favre because of the pass friendly rules.

I would say (again....not speaking of any specific player.........really....I'm not) a QB would have to be among the very best of this era to be a true Hall of Famer.
That has always been true.

Isn't that who should be in the Hall of Fame?

gumby74
05-22-2013, 02:27 PM
Isn't that who should be in the Hall of Fame?

Yes, but there are plenty of players that are in the hall that i think shouldn't be. # of championships is hugely overrated. The Hall and unanimous individual dominance and excellence should go hand in hand. Right now, it doesn't.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 02:29 PM
Isn't that who should be in the Hall of Fame?
Yes.
I think what some folks look at is the HOF as the prize. I don't think it is. Its the journey. Its the seasons of football players provide to us fans.

The Hall seems to be a source of validation for some fans for a player they spend defending. Personally, that's not what I care about.
I really don't care that much if Phil gets into the Hall. And Phil is my favorite player of any sport. Whether he's in or not, it doesn't change the enjoyment he gave me or that great, first championship my team achieved. It doesn't change the kind of great football player I know he was.

The Hall is an individual award for a team game. I think the fans care a bit too much about it.

At least that's my opinion.

BigBlue wins
05-22-2013, 02:31 PM
Yes and I would be a bit surprised if he is not a first ballot hall of famer.

RoanokeFan
05-22-2013, 02:37 PM
Yes.
I think what some folks look at is the HOF as the prize. I don't think it is. Its the journey. Its the seasons of football players provide to us fans.

The Hall seems to be a source of validation for some fans for a player they spend defending. Personally, that's not what I care about.
I really don't care that much if Phil gets into the Hall. And Phil is my favorite player of any sport. Whether he's in or not, it doesn't change the enjoyment he gave me or that great, first championship my team achieved. It doesn't change the kind of great football player I know he was.

The Hall is an individual award for a team game. I think the fans care a bit too much about it.

At least that's my opinion.

That's kind of like saying you win all your games in a season and you don't want to play in the Superbowl though.

giantscolombia
05-22-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm staying away from the subject of the thread.

Far far away.......

haha you have to be careful bro.
Some people might find that to be a form of aggression on these boards.

ELI_HOF_NYG
05-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Even though Eli's stats fall short of the top 5 in this era who might get in , they think there is a chance.

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/05/21/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-an-nfl-hall-of-famer/



and please dont get this thread locked, civilized discussions with no name calling or personal attacks please.

enough of this, eli has a minimum of 5 years left to play, lets let the cards fall where they do. It is way too early to have this conversation.

G-Men4Supes
05-22-2013, 03:08 PM
Eli has done everything he needs to do as far as the postseason is concerned to merit HOF induction. He just needs two more regular seasons at his career average production, and he will be a HOFer.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:11 PM
That's kind of like saying you win all your games in a season and you don't want to play in the Superbowl though.
When your career is over...its over. You did what you did. You played the way you played and your teams did what they did.
None of that changes if a bunch of sports writers do or don't vote you in the Hall years later.

GameTime
05-22-2013, 03:18 PM
i think we all know he has a chance to build his stats and get in, however the question is if eli this season got a solar plexus and was done. would he get in as it stands now. and i think thats a no.
how many QBs have gotten in with an 8 year career?? I am too lazy to do the research. Oh yeah...how many in 8 year career with two SB wins and MVPs.
And no BS about SB wins and SB MVPs dont or shouldnt mean that much. Reality check....they do...
BTW....I couldnt care less about who is or isnt in the HOF. Just amuses me how some can sit there and make Eli seem like just the product of being in the right place at the right time.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:21 PM
how many QBs have gotten in with an 8 year career?? I am too lazy to do the research. Oh yeah...how many in 8 year career with two SB wins and MVPs.
And no BS about SB wins and SB MVPs dont or shouldnt mean that much. Reality check....they do...
I just don't get why this argument is so important to people.
Just enjoy the kid and let the rest take care of itself.
Again....Its an individual award in a team game.
You all place way too much importance on it.

GameTime
05-22-2013, 03:24 PM
I just don't get why this argument is so important to people.
Just enjoy the kid and let the rest take care of itself.
Again....Its an individual award in a team game.
You all place way too much importance on it.
I edited my posts after you quoted. I dont care either if he gets in. I want the Giants to win....thats all...

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:27 PM
I edited my posts after you quoted. I dont care either if he gets in. I want the Giants to win....thats all...
I'm obviously in the same camp.
I care about my team. All this other stuff just misses the point as far as I'm concerned.

Harooni
05-22-2013, 03:32 PM
how many QBs have gotten in with an 8 year career?? I am too lazy to do the research. Oh yeah...how many in 8 year career with two SB wins and MVPs.
And no BS about SB wins and SB MVPs dont or shouldnt mean that much. Reality check....they do...
BTW....I couldnt care less about who is or isnt in the HOF. Just amuses me how some can sit there and make Eli seem like just the product of being in the right place at the right time. this is correct but what we are saying is if eli has a few more typical reg seasons. than its a no go.

GameTime
05-22-2013, 03:40 PM
this is correct but what we are saying is if eli has a few more typical reg seasons. than its a no go.
I am saying he is a very good QB and with a few more year of his current production he will show he was one of the top QBs of his time in the NFL...

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 03:42 PM
Someone mentioned it early in this thread, and it has been said in numerous other threads, but basically if we're debating whether or not Eli is a HOF'er on his own teams message boards, then its not a question. Eli Manning isn't a Hall of Famer yet.

Key word... 'yet'.

GameTime
05-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Someone mentioned it early in this thread, and it has been said in numerous other threads, but basically if we're debating whether or not Eli is a HOF'er on his own teams message boards, then its not a question. Eli Manning isn't a Hall of Famer yet.

Key word... 'yet'.
all depneds on which poster is questioning it....lol

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 03:47 PM
Now... to the article.

The article tries to weigh Manning's worth mathematically, which is a little short sighted. The hall of fame is earned more on perception than actual accomplishment, and the article doesn't seem to recognize that.

Eli Manning could easily be in the HOF if he ever steps out of the shadows of Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc. But if he's never considered a top 3 QB of his generation, then why should he be considered good enough to be in the HOF?

Luckily for him, as the natural course of events goes, some of those guys will retire and people will be forced to notice Eli by default. As long as he holds serve and doesn't let young guys pass him when he should be the 'big brother', then he'll make it, but likely not as a 1st ballot.

Honestly, this years inductees just reminded me how tough it is to get in.

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Even though Eli's stats fall short of the top 5 in this era who might get in , they think there is a chance.

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/05/21/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-an-nfl-hall-of-famer/

and please dont get this thread locked, civilized discussions with no name calling or personal attacks please.

'Rooni...did you read the article?

I suspect you didn't

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Now... to the article.

The article tries to weigh Manning's worth mathematically, which is a little short sighted. The hall of fame is earned more on perception than actual accomplishment, and the article doesn't seem to recognize that.

Eli Manning could easily be in the HOF if he ever steps out of the shadows of Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc. But if he's never considered a top 3 QB of his generation, then why should he be considered good enough to be in the HOF?

Luckily for him, as the natural course of events goes, some of those guys will retire and people will be forced to notice Eli by default. As long as he holds serve and doesn't let young guys pass him when he should be the 'big brother', then he'll make it, but likely not as a 1st ballot.

Honestly, this years inductees just reminded me how tough it is to get in.

Please for the love of god tell me you don't consider Aikmen top 3 of his era!!

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 03:52 PM
this is correct but what we are saying is if eli has a few more typical reg seasons. than its a no go.

You may be saying that, but the article you cited wasn't.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:52 PM
Please for the love of god tell me you don't consider Aikmen top 3 of his era!!
I think the voters did.
Personally, I think he may be the most overrated QB in NFL history. Talk about a guy who benefited from a great supporting cast.......

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:53 PM
You may be saying that, but the article you cited wasn't.
This is not intended to be snipey but.......so what?

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 03:54 PM
This is not intended to be snipey but.......so what?

I honestly question if Harooni actually read the article in it's entirety.

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 03:56 PM
I think the voters did.
Personally, I think he may be the most overrated QB in NFL history. Talk about a guy who benefited from a great supporting cast.......

This is actually my point on HOF.

TA had a fantastic career, and is in the HOF because of results, not stats or a comparison to other QB's of that era.
I often cite Aikmen as an example of why Eli has an strong case

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 03:59 PM
This is actually my point on HOF.

TA had a fantastic career, and is in the HOF because of results, not stats or a comparison to other QB's of that era.
I often cite Aikmen as an example of why Eli has an strong case
I just don't think he was that good a player. He was the QB for 3 SB teams. But he couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock and Randall isn't in the Hall.
The criteria is misplaced in my view.

Delicreep
05-22-2013, 04:06 PM
I just don't think he was that good a player. He was the QB for 3 SB teams. But he couldn't hold Randall Cunningham's jock and Randall isn't in the Hall.
The criteria is misplaced in my view.

I'm not arguing that it's right, just that it is.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 04:09 PM
I'm not arguing that it's right, just that it is.
Again....why don't we all just enjoy the fact that our team is in it every year and that we have a good QB. Why does anyone have to fight this stinking fight all the time?

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 04:10 PM
Please for the love of god tell me you don't consider Aikmen top 3 of his era!!

Aikman? Tough question.

1. He was part of a dynasty
2. The best QBs of his era weren't really 'winners'.
3. He also didn't play in the greatest era of hyperbole like Eli does.

All that aside he wasn't as good as Elway, Young, Favre, Moon, Kelly, so on and so forth. But he was more successful and on the biggest stage in the NFL with the Cowboys.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 04:12 PM
Aikman? No, not at all. But...

1. He was part of a dynasty
2. The best QBs of his era weren't really 'winners'.
3. He also didn't play in the greatest era of hyperbole like Eli does.

Aikman is so overrated its not funny. The guy was a pretty good player who threw a lot of bad picks. He also sucked in bad weather. He was useless in the rain.

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 04:14 PM
I think the voters did.
Personally, I think he may be the most overrated QB in NFL history. Talk about a guy who benefited from a great supporting cast.......

He certainly benefited from the players around him. But then again I think he was a very talented QB who never really had to push his limits or the stat sheet.

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Aikman is so overrated its not funny. The guy was a pretty good player who threw a lot of bad picks. He also sucked in bad weather. He was useless in the rain.

Yeah he certainly did that

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 04:22 PM
Yeah he certainly did that
Well I do appreciate your objectivity.

SweetZombieJesus
05-22-2013, 04:32 PM
All the 2X SB MVP QBs are in or still active (Brady, a shoe-in).

4thand1
05-22-2013, 04:33 PM
People should stop confusing the hall of fame with the hall of great regular season stats

Ntegrase96
05-22-2013, 05:42 PM
People should stop confusing the hall of fame with the hall of great regular season stats

People should stop confusing the Hall of Fame with stats at all. It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of good players. It's filled with the absolute best players or the players who had the biggest impact on the lore of the NFL.

Harooni
05-22-2013, 10:18 PM
The thing is its very hard to even get in the hall of fame. fans keep saying shoe in and lock. let me tell you look at parcells having a hard time. you have to pretty much be the best in your era, they are not going to give 5-6 qb's HOF status in a short period. now that the rules have changed we will see qb;'s shatter records. what eli has going for him is longevity not dominant play.

fansince69
05-22-2013, 10:21 PM
The thing is its very hard to even get in the hall of fame. fans keep saying shoe in and lock. let me tell you look at parcells having a hard time. you have to pretty much be the best in your era, they are not going to give 5-6 qb's HOF status in a short period. now that the rules have changed we will see qb;'s shatter records. what eli has going for him is longevity not dominant play.Lets not forget Chris Carter....3rd leading receiver of all time( I think)

Harooni
05-22-2013, 10:22 PM
Yes but we are not wild animals or Pavlovian dog's. We are supposed to figure that stuff out as playful banter and respond in kind.
I wish I had his restraint. The guy takes more crap from fellow posters and never lashes out at them.

As I said, I wish I could do that. He is to be appreciated in my opinion.

Rant over.
thanks my friend
in the first 4 years i admit i had fired back at those who called me names and other teams fan and troll and so forth, but i learned to keep it cool as i got older.

i do realize that my posts do fire certain adoring fans up. but we are all giants fans. ones favorite player may not be the other fans favorite player , i wish many would understand that.

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 10:26 PM
thanks my friend
in the first 4 years i admit i had fired back at those who called me names and other teams fan and troll and so forth, but i learned to keep it cool as i got older.

i do realize that my posts do fire certain adoring fans up. but we are all giants fans. ones favorite player may not be the other fans favorite player , i wish many would understand that.

Me too. But alas................

4thand1
05-22-2013, 11:04 PM
The thing is its very hard to even get in the hall of fame. fans keep saying shoe in and lock. let me tell you look at parcells having a hard time. you have to pretty much be the best in your era, they are not going to give 5-6 qb's HOF status in a short period. now that the rules have changed we will see qb;'s shatter records. what eli has going for him is longevity not dominant play.

Not getting in on the first ballot qualifies as "having a hard time"? Everybody knew he would eventually get in, just like everyone knows Strahan will get in

nygfanmaybe
05-22-2013, 11:37 PM
Again....why don't we all just enjoy the fact that our team is in it every year and that we have a good QB. Why does anyone have to fight this stinking fight all the time?

Why is every other post in any Eli thread from you?

Morehead State
05-22-2013, 11:43 PM
Why is every other post in any Eli thread from you?
I just spent the entire day arguing about Justin Pugh, and our draft. What are you talking about?
I have no interest in discussing Eli.

giantsfan420
05-23-2013, 12:10 AM
People should stop confusing the Hall of Fame with stats at all. It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of good players. It's filled with the absolute best players or the players who had the biggest impact on the lore of the NFL.exactly, the sb vs the 18-0 pats alone would get him in the convo imo. 2011 solidifies it imo, esp when u consider he's the younger bro of peyton and son of archie. playing in the biggest sports market...two most impropable SB runs and 2 SB MVPS...to go along with a HoF worthy resume imo. def a Hof but its so moot. hes got half his career yet to be written.

rebelfan1966
05-23-2013, 09:07 AM
Did someone mention Eli ??????

EliDaMANning
05-23-2013, 12:10 PM
exactly, the sb vs the 18-0 pats alone would get him in the convo imo. 2011 solidifies it imo, esp when u consider he's the younger bro of peyton and son of archie. playing in the biggest sports market...two most impropable SB runs and 2 SB MVPS...to go along with a HoF worthy resume imo. def a Hof but its so moot. hes got half his career yet to be written.After that performance and basically dominating in 2011 beating teams with QB like Rodgers, Ryan and Brady cemented his status into the HOF in my eyes. But obviously there will be plenty of detractors. I can see him doing it again another time but then of course people will be talking about his 0 regular season MVP.

BlueSanta
05-23-2013, 01:17 PM
I will not answer until I see all of Eli's body of work and all is said and done.


But, 1 thing I think people are wrong about is the whole stats thing. Stats are just 1 component of the hall of fame. People here are talking about Aikmen and I think Namath is another possible fly in the ointment of the stat lovers. He was a turnover machine and had more bad years in the NFL than good. His career completion percentage was 50%..That was bad even for back then.

The thing about Joe is he made himself famous for something. Eli has done the same thing a bit with his amazing ability to turn it on in the 4th quarter, as well as his amazing play in the playoffs. If he can continue to win close games in amazing fashion as he has done for all his career, he will get into the hall as 1 of the most clutch guys in NFL history.

speedman
05-23-2013, 09:19 PM
I just spent the entire day arguing about Justin Pugh, and our draft. What are you talking about?I have no interest in discussing Eli. For someone not having an interest in discussing Eli you posted 23 times in this thread.

Imgrate
05-23-2013, 09:23 PM
I don't think he is hall of fame quality, but I bet he gets voted in

jomo
05-23-2013, 09:29 PM
I don't think he is hall of fame quality, but I bet he gets voted inWe all have our own threshold of who should be in but in the end he is evaluated against the others who are there. Bob Griese is there. Bob Griese, while good, couldn't carry Phil Simms's or Eli's jock strap.

gumby74
05-23-2013, 09:32 PM
People should stop confusing the Hall of Fame with stats at all. It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of good players. It's filled with the absolute best players or the players who had the biggest impact on the lore of the NFL.


exactly, the sb vs the 18-0 pats alone would get him in the convo imo. 2011 solidifies it imo, esp when u consider he's the younger bro of peyton and son of archie. playing in the biggest sports market...two most impropable SB runs and 2 SB MVPS...to go along with a HoF worthy resume imo. def a Hof but its so moot. hes got half his career yet to be written.


After that performance and basically dominating in 2011 beating teams with QB like Rodgers, Ryan and Brady cemented his status into the HOF in my eyes. But obviously there will be plenty of detractors. I can see him doing it again another time but then of course people will be talking about his 0 regular season MVP.

What Ntegrase said was that there were 2 ways to make the hall. 1) Be the absolute best of the best of your era. 2) Be an important part of NFL lore.

#1 and #2 are not mutually inclusive. Meaning, you can be one without the other. You're talking as if making the HoF implies both.

Eli will probably get in based on #2 alone - even if he has a "very good" 2012 performance for the rest of his career and never wins another one. As for #1, Eli by enlarge isn't considered a top 4 QB of his era. Ntegrase made a good point about people "noticing" Eli more when Peyton, Brees, and Brady retires. We'll see what happens.

Morehead State
05-23-2013, 09:39 PM
For someone not having an interest in discussing Eli you posted 23 times in this thread.
Maybe you can cite any references to Eli.
Maybe some of you folks should worry more about talking about football and stop obsessing about others posters.
A friendly suggestion.

BuffyBlueII
05-24-2013, 01:20 AM
NY Rangers beat Boston Bruins in OT tonight to stay alive. Boston Bruins leads the series 3-1.

Lets root for NY Rangers to pull the win off this Saturday in Boston to bring it back to NYC for Game Six.

Lets go NY Rangers.

Blue or Die.

Harooni
05-24-2013, 02:11 AM
We all have our own threshold of who should be in but in the end he is evaluated against the others who are there. Bob Griese is there. Bob Griese, while good, couldn't carry Phil Simms's or Eli's jock strap. jomo completely different era. you see stafford throwing 5000 yards now.

if giant fans are doubting Eli is HOF material .what do none giant fans think?

Rat_bastich
05-24-2013, 03:38 AM
I think he makes it even without any more Super Bowls, barring a total collapse and rapid decline. I think if he maintains his current course he gets in. He has two Super Bowls under his belt and an MVP in each of those Super Bowls.

nygfanmaybe
05-24-2013, 06:15 AM
Maybe you can cite any references to Eli.
Maybe some of you folks should worry more about talking about football and stop obsessing about others posters.
A friendly suggestion.

I find it ironic that you use the word obsessing.

v. ob新essed, ob新ess搏ng, ob新ess搪s. v.tr. To preoccupy the mind of excessively.
v.intr. To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic: ...


One only has to take a look at the post counts to see who the obsessive one is, IMO.

Just a friendly observation...

nygfanmaybe
05-24-2013, 06:20 AM
jomo completely different era. you see stafford throwing 5000 yards now.

if giant fans are doubting Eli is HOF material .what do none giant fans think?

It is debatable as to whether the people doing the doubting are really Giants' fans or just jealous trolls.

fansince69
05-24-2013, 06:25 AM
It is debatable as to whether the people doing the doubting are really Giants' fans or just jealous trolls.or just realists....many people like me....feel He has done enough to warrant a conversation...but he is not the shoe in that so many seem to think.....especially first ballot.......a lot of who gets in is based on who else is trying to get in at same time

Imgrate
05-24-2013, 06:41 AM
It is debatable as to whether the people doing the doubting are really Giants' fans or just jealous trolls.This, of course, coming from an ole miss.

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 08:02 AM
It is debatable as to whether the people doing the doubting are really Giants' fans or just jealous trolls.
Keep it about football.

nygfanmaybe
05-24-2013, 08:09 AM
As far as who it trying to get in at the same time...it would seem that people drafted around the same year as you would be that group. With that in mind, Eli will go up against Ben and Rivers...the two most notorious drafted the same year as him...and if a ballot was taken now I believe that Eli would edge Ben with 2 wins against his two...and 2 MVP's...and a very safe motorists along with being a safe guy to encounter in a bar past 2am...

Here's the deal. Eli, along with his teammates, have provided some legendary moments in NFL history already. Couple that with him being an ideal role model for the NFL...he has it all going in his favor. I'm not sure about 1st ballot, but he gets in even if his career ends this year...God forbid.

Die-Hard
05-24-2013, 08:12 AM
I find it ironic that you use the word obsessing.

v. ob新essed, ob新ess搏ng, ob新ess搪s. v.tr. To preoccupy the mind of excessively.
v.intr. To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic: ...


One only has to take a look at the post counts to see who the obsessive one is, IMO.

Just a friendly observation...

Heres another one: You are taking the thread off topic. The bickering between certain posters has reached the threshold, and it will stop one way or another, so let this serve as your one and only warning. Talk football in a civil manner or you'll be gone, and that goes for everyone.

Thanks for listening

Die-Hard
05-24-2013, 08:53 AM
I'd also like to add something to those of you who think they're being unfairly targeted and/or singled out: Just because you dont see individual posters being publicly warned doesn't mean they aren't being warned privately. We always try to keep that stuff off of the boards, but sometimes, it reaches the point where more than one person in a thread is acting up, and its easier to address them all publicly at one time. I shouldn't have to explain this, but apparently, it's neccessary.

Any further commentary on this subject should be submitted via PM or email: giantsboards@gmail.com

Thanks!

Delicreep
05-24-2013, 08:57 AM
jomo completely different era. you see stafford throwing 5000 yards now.

if giant fans are doubting Eli is HOF material .what do none giant fans think?

That's a really interesting question. What In am wondering is the percentage of Giants fan's that don't think he gets into the HOF.
Not first ballot, just gets in.

Can anyone set up a poll?

One man, one vote - in or out?

Die-Hard
05-24-2013, 09:02 AM
That's a really interesting question. What In am wondering is the percentage of Giants fan's that don't think he gets into the HOF.
Not first ballot, just gets in.

Can anyone set up a poll?

One man, one vote - in or out?

The only way such a thing would survive would be to set up the poll, and not allow people to comment. Just a simple yes or no vote. Otherwise, it'll turn into every other Eli Manning thread, and will eventually be locked or deleted. Just a suggestion

Delicreep
05-24-2013, 09:05 AM
The only way such a thing would survive would be to set up the poll, and not allow people to comment. Just a simple yes or no vote. Otherwise, it'll turn into every other Eli Manning thread, and will eventually be locked or deleted. Just a suggestion

Can an actual poll be set up?
I can't even figure out how to post a pic, so I'm out!

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 09:09 AM
Can an actual poll be set up?
I can't even figure out how to post a pic, so I'm out!
I love ya Delicreep....but why for God's sake?
Just let it lie. There is plenty of time when a player's career is over to discuss that. And it seems to me that after a player's career is the appropriate time.
Right now it should be about winning football games.
Just one dope's opinion.

Die-Hard
05-24-2013, 09:22 AM
Can an actual poll be set up?
I can't even figure out how to post a pic, so I'm out!

LOL Sure. I can do it if you'd like. I've got a morbid curiousity about the results, even though I have a very good idea how it'll turn out

fansince69
05-24-2013, 09:28 AM
LOL Sure. I can do it if you'd like. I've got a morbid curiousity about the results, even though I have a very good idea how it'll turn outim curious how you think it would turn out....to me its just not as black and white as many make it out to be

fansince69
05-24-2013, 09:30 AM
LOL Sure. I can do it if you'd like. I've got a morbid curiousity about the results, even though I have a very good idea how it'll turn outyour poll needs one more option....too soon to tell

Die-Hard
05-24-2013, 09:32 AM
Well aparently, a poll cant be created without allowing commentary, so that ends that

I think the majority of people would have said Yes. As for myself, I dont think he'd get in TODAY, but by the end of his career, with a few more years of solid numbers, I believe he'd get in without a hitch. His inconsistency will not go unnoticed by the voters, regardless of how many rings he currently has.

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 09:35 AM
LOL Sure. I can do it if you'd like. I've got a morbid curiousity about the results, even though I have a very good idea how it'll turn out
Me too......With blood on the screen.

MattMeyerBud
05-24-2013, 09:38 AM
I find it ironic that you use the word obsessing.

v. ob新essed, ob新ess搏ng, ob新ess搪s. v.tr. To preoccupy the mind of excessively.
v.intr. To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic: ...


One only has to take a look at the post counts to see who the obsessive one is, IMO.

Just a friendly observation...

obsessed with giant football, i'll give him... but that's also considered a fanatic...

even I think its unfair to call pappy obsessed with Eli...

to say hes horribly wrong about his opinion on him, well that's another story

fansince69
05-24-2013, 09:41 AM
Well aparently, a poll cant be created without allowing commentary, so that ends that

I think the majority of people would have said Yes. As for myself, I dont think he'd get in TODAY, but by the end of his career, with a few more years of solid numbers, I believe he'd get in without a hitch. His inconsistency will not go unnoticed by the voters, regardless of how many rings he currently has.my feelings almost exactly...thanks for the imput

Delicreep
05-24-2013, 10:02 AM
Well aparently, a poll cant be created without allowing commentary, so that ends that

I think the majority of people would have said Yes. As for myself, I dont think he'd get in TODAY, but by the end of his career, with a few more years of solid numbers, I believe he'd get in without a hitch. His inconsistency will not go unnoticed by the voters, regardless of how many rings he currently has.

Thanks for the effort.

Here's what I know about HOF voting and who gets in: not much.

When I think what would hurt Eli's chances the most, I think the pre draft drama - it is the thing that really made me and many older fans not really like the guy. On some level, I still hold it against him.

In terms of his inconsistancy, I can see that being turned into a positive: "regular season is pre playoffs...get him in the post season and he's lights out".

Delicreep
05-24-2013, 10:05 AM
I love ya Delicreep....but why for God's sake?
Just let it lie. There is plenty of time when a player's career is over to discuss that. And it seems to me that after a player's career is the appropriate time.
Right now it should be about winning football games.
Just one dope's opinion.

C'mon...it's a surefire street brawl no matter what happens...how do you not want to see that?

And it's pre-pre season, for gods sake; gotta do something?

Moke
05-24-2013, 10:07 AM
I think no shot Eli gets in. I just can't see it happen. He's been a great QB for us, but to qualify him for the Hall of Fame? No.

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 10:08 AM
my feelings almost exactly...thanks for the imput
Me too. This pretty much sums up my view as well.

SweetZombieJesus
05-24-2013, 01:20 PM
I think no shot Eli gets in. I just can't see it happen. He's been a great QB for us, but to qualify him for the Hall of Fame? No.

5 QBs have multiple SB MVPs. 3 are in the HoF already (Starr, Bradshaw, Montana), two are still active (Brady, Eli).

Brady is a lock.

You really think Eli is going to be the only one in the multiple SB MVP club to not join the rest in the Hall?

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 01:41 PM
5 QBs have multiple SB MVPs. 3 are in the HoF already (Starr, Bradshaw, Montana), two are still active (Brady, Eli).

Brady is a lock.

You really think Eli is going to be the only one in the multiple SB MVP club to not join the rest in the Hall?

The other 4 were among the 2 or 3 best QB's of their era. What Die Hard said is pretty fair. Inconsistency during a player's career is part of the equation.
Its not just 2 SB runs. A very good QB who won 2 rings is still a very good QB.
In my view..."very good" falls a bit short of the standard.
But he may play great later in his career so that would be moot. Who knows?

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Brady never threw for more than 30 TD until 2007 and only 4000 yards once before that but everyone pretty much had him locked up for the HOF after his 3rd SB. Don't know what's up with the double standards.

Brady is immortal on these boards but he's still got fresh belt marks on his back from Eli.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 01:56 PM
Brady never threw for more than 30 TD until 2007 and only 4000 yards once before that but everyone pretty much had him locked up for the HOF after his 3rd SB. Don't know what's up with the double standards.

Brady is immortal on these boards but he's still got fresh belt marks on his back from Eli.You mean our defense. Since..Eli didn't tackle, sack, or pick off Tom Brady...

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 01:58 PM
Ni, I mean Eli. Defense was fantastic too though.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Ni, I mean Eli. Defense was fantastic too though.lol ok.

Moke
05-24-2013, 02:01 PM
5 QBs have multiple SB MVPs. 3 are in the HoF already (Starr, Bradshaw, Montana), two are still active (Brady, Eli).

Brady is a lock.

You really think Eli is going to be the only one in the multiple SB MVP club to not join the rest in the Hall?

He's not as consistent, IMO.

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:04 PM
The other 4 were among the 2 or 3 best QB's of their era. What Die Hard said is pretty fair. Inconsistency during a player's career is part of the equation.
Its not just 2 SB runs. A very good QB who won 2 rings is still a very good QB.
In my view..."very good" falls a bit short of the standard.
But he may play great later in his career so that would be moot. Who knows?

yeah but that's our own definition (mine too). Eli probably gets in, even if he plays "very good" for the rest of his career and never wins another one.

Edit: Basically like Ntegrase said, you don't need to be a dominant QB in order to get into the hall. Most are. But you don't need to be. Eli will be a part of the exception, not the rule. Assuming he keeps the current pace.

Eli will get in based on post season results alone.

Thiergow
05-24-2013, 02:06 PM
I think we are way past the question "will Eli be a HoFer?". That question was answered when he got his 2nd Super Bowl ring with a 2nd SB MVP award.

All the elements to get him to Canton, Ohio are here: SB rings, no season under 0.500, lots of franchise records and more to come in the future and tons of great wins.

The question today is: when will Eli be a HoFer?

I don't think he'll be a 1st ballot HoF (Peyton and Brady surely will) but he'll get there and that's the only thing that matters. Even if it takes time, we all know that he is the greatest QB in franchise history.

fansince69
05-24-2013, 02:09 PM
He's not as consistent, IMO.I am going to play devil's advocate here because the point I am going to make contradicts how I actually feel....and that is that eli will be in the conversation but how he finishes his career will sure have some bearing.....as of right now I don't think it is cut and dry........My question is going to be Bradshaw...a good qb ...surely not great by his numbers....but multiple championships....sound familiar?

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Moke;772174]He's not as consistent, IMO.[/QUOI am going to play devil's advocate here because the point I am going to make contradicts how I actually feel....and that is that eli will be in the conversation but how he finishes his career will sure have some bearing.....as of right now I don't think it is cut and dry........My question is going to be Bradshaw...a good qb ...surely not great by his numbers....but multiple championships....sound familiar?

It's all relative. Difference is that Bradshaw in his prime was one of the "elite" QB of his era. Eli to this day still has some controversy and by most people is at most 5th best at the QB position.

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 02:14 PM
yeah but that's our own definition (mine too). Eli probably gets in, even if he plays "very good" for the rest of his career and never wins another one.

Edit: Basically like Ntegrase said, you don't need to be a dominant QB in order to get into the hall. Most are. But you don't need to be. Eli will be a part of the exception, not the rule. Assuming he keeps the current pace.

Eli will get in based on post season results alone.

If your argument is that the HOF standards aren't as high as they used to be, or should be, where even players who aren't "great" get in, I have no way to argue one way or the other.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 02:14 PM
[QUOTE=fansince69;772183]

It's all relative. Difference is that Bradshaw in his prime was one of the "elite" QB of his era. Eli to this day still has some controversy and by most people is at most 5th best at the QB position.Is being the 5th best not elite?

Also, is only being the 5th best not good enough?

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE=gumby74;772188]Is being the 5th best not elite?

Also, is only being the 5th best not good enough?

Forget the word "elite". That's too subjective. My definition just happens to be stricter than others. Let's use "head and shoulders above the pack". The problem isn't that he's just 5th-6th best. The problem is that there's still debate on how good he actually is. Rodgers No debate. Brady. No debate. Peyton. No debate. Heck, Ben. No debate. It's just unanimous he's not as good as those other 3. He may not be "head and shoulders above the pack" but you know exact what you're getting with him - good solid play day in and day out. With Eli, how highly people think of him varies as much as his consistency.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=Rudyy;772191]

Forget the word "elite". That's too subjective. My definition just happens to be stricter than others. Let's use "head and shoulders above the pack". The problem isn't that he's just 5th-6th best. The problem is that there's still debate on how good he actually is. Rodgers No debate. Brady. No debate. Peyton. No debate. Heck, Ben. No debate. It's just unanimous he's not as good as those other 3. He may not be "head and shoulders above the pack" but you know exact what you're getting with him - good solid play day in and day out. With Eli, how highly people think of him varies as much as his consistency.Question:

Do stats matter? Or do you use the eye test?

EDIT: And I'm not trying to interrogate you or anything, I just want to understand where you are coming from. Most of these locked threads are because people like to jump to conclusions and they don't really understand or they misunderstand others. Therefore, they get upset and start the personal attacks.

fansince69
05-24-2013, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=fansince69;772183]

It's all relative. Difference is that Bradshaw in his prime was one of the "elite" QB of his era. Eli to this day still has some controversy and by most people is at most 5th best at the QB position.I agree to some extent....but I am not sure I would have called Bradshaw elite.....I think Unitas was elite I think starr was elite.....Bradshaw was near the top of a bunch of not that great QBS....those 2 were at the end as Bradshaw was starting....Honestly...when I think of those Steelers teams Bradshaw is way down the list of players that come to mind.....

Moke
05-24-2013, 02:22 PM
To be honest, no QB is HoF material except Tom Brady right now, IMO.

All other QBs need to prove more.

Tom Brady went from like 6th round pick to stardom.

It's just easier to point fingers at "hall of famers" because it's a pass-offensive era

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=gumby74;772196]Question:

Do stats matter? Or do you use the eye test? Current HoF, both matter - but within the context of their era. I have my own definition of what warrants the HoF, but that's another extreme.

fansince69
05-24-2013, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=Rudyy;772191]

Forget the word "elite". That's too subjective. My definition just happens to be stricter than others. Let's use "head and shoulders above the pack". The problem isn't that he's just 5th-6th best. The problem is that there's still debate on how good he actually is. Rodgers No debate. Brady. No debate. Peyton. No debate. Heck, Ben. No debate. It's just unanimous he's not as good as those other 3. He may not be "head and shoulders above the pack" but you know exact what you're getting with him - good solid play day in and day out. With Eli, how highly people think of him varies as much as his consistency.Nicely worded....I might substitute Brees for Ben but other than that It says what I think

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:24 PM
To be honest, no QB is HoF material except Tom Brady right now, IMO.

All other QBs need to prove more.

Tom Brady went from like 6th round pick to stardom.

It's just easier to point fingers at "hall of famers" because it's a pass-offensive era

Peyton also imo. There's no other QB like him - ever. He's a o-coordinator playing QB out there.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE=Rudyy;772197] Current HoF, both matter - but within the context of their era. I have my own definition of what warrants the HoF, but that's another extreme.What is your definition?

Sorry, haha this is probably annoying, but I like hearing other opinions.

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 02:26 PM
To be honest, no QB is HoF material except Tom Brady right now, IMO.

All other QBs need to prove more.

Tom Brady went from like 6th round pick to stardom.

It's just easier to point fingers at "hall of famers" because it's a pass-offensive eraBrady over Peyton? ROFL

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:26 PM
[QUOTE=gumby74;772196]Nicely worded....I might substitute Brees for Ben but other than that It says what I think

I don't know what it is, but Brees doesn't do it for me. He's above Ben, but I have no clue. Is it playing in a dome maybe? Padding his stats?

Moke
05-24-2013, 02:38 PM
Peyton also imo. There's no other QB like him - ever. He's a o-coordinator playing QB out there.


Brady over Peyton? ROFL

Peyton too. I tend to forget about him because of his neck injury. Silly me.

fansince69
05-24-2013, 02:39 PM
[QUOTE=fansince69;772202]

I don't know what it is, but Brees doesn't do it for me. He's above Ben, but I have no clue. Is it playing in a dome maybe? Padding his stats?It is possible....His numbers just didn't seem all that great at San Diego

gumby74
05-24-2013, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=gumby74;772206]It is possible....His numbers just didn't seem all that great at San Diego To be fair, he didn't turn it on until his 7/8th season - the exact same time when Eli turned it on in 2011. It's why we're all so disappointed in 2012, because we thought Eli's trajectory would rival that of Brees and Brady and the same point in their careers. Instead he reverted back to "original" form.

giantsfan420
05-24-2013, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=fansince69;772210] To be fair, he didn't turn it on until his 7/8th season - the exact same time when Eli turned it on in 2011. It's why we're all so disappointed in 2012, because we thought Eli's trajectory would rival that of Brees and Brady and the same point in their careers. Instead he reverted back to "original" form.not really accurate but ok.

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=gumby74;772206]It is possible....His numbers just didn't seem all that great at San DiegoHis numbers aren't all that great outside a dome. He is an overrated stat conscious football chucker.

giantsfan420
05-24-2013, 02:58 PM
[QUOTE=Rudyy;772191]

Forget the word "elite". That's too subjective. My definition just happens to be stricter than others. Let's use "head and shoulders above the pack". The problem isn't that he's just 5th-6th best. The problem is that there's still debate on how good he actually is. Rodgers No debate. Brady. No debate. Peyton. No debate. Heck, Ben. No debate. It's just unanimous he's not as good as those other 3. He may not be "head and shoulders above the pack" but you know exact what you're getting with him - good solid play day in and day out. With Eli, how highly people think of him varies as much as his consistency.imo, this just shows how biased you are. theres aspects of each of the qbs u listed, especially ben, that are highly debatable in terms of where they rank among their peers. Peyton- can he play like he does in the regular season when it counts most, in the playoffs? Brady- Since the whole spygate issue, he has not won a SB despite putting up mind blowing regular season games. Can he be effective when the pass rush is getting home? the whole tap dance thing. players even publically call him out altho that could be jealousy. Rodgers- 2 phenomenal yrs, no disputing that. but is this level something he sustains or does he drop back down to earth? only has had 1 good playoff run. also has a history of concussions. further, is he a great qb in a good system or a good qb in a great system (Flynn, who is still a back up, broke records for a single game performance. also played exceptional when called upon in GB altho it was rarely needed)...Big Ben I'm not even gonna begin to list, I'll just say its apparent injuries plague him, and that he struggles when being forced to stay inside the pocket and not revert to the backyard qb. last yr had his worst yr since his first 2-3 yrs in an offense that was built on reading the D and making quick decisions...worst qb performance on a winning sb team (his wr had more td passes than him) for 1, and the other was vs an AZ team that at that time was cnsidered the worst sb team in history whether fairly or not, and how he played poorly vs GB, off field stuff, etc.
elis, knock, he doesnt put up fantasy football #s as consistently as he helps lead the team to victory. forces throws too often. regular season has peaks and valleys...

doesnt seem like they're head n shoulders above eli at all

gumby74
05-24-2013, 04:34 PM
To be fair, he didn't turn it on until his 7/8th season - the exact same time when Eli turned it on in 2011. It's why we're all so disappointed in 2012, because we thought Eli's trajectory would rival that of Brees and Brady and the same point in their careers. Instead he reverted back to "original" form.


not really accurate but ok.

Show me otherwise.

4thand1
05-24-2013, 04:42 PM
there's no debate on how good Ben is?

That seems about right. After all he did carry the steelers to a title with a 22.6 passer rating in the super bowl.

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 04:58 PM
there's no debate on how good Ben is?

That seems about right. After all he did carry the steelers to a title with a 22.6 passer rating in the super bowl.Clearly there's no debate how good Ben is at handing the ball off to his RB.

Delicreep
05-24-2013, 05:04 PM
It is not the "Hall of Consistency"
It is not the "Hall of Stats"

I have to say, the attempts to say Eli is not qualified based on these factors comes across as absolutely desperate - a monkey with a stick can point to player after player in the Hall who were neither.

It's the Hall of Fame.

And here's how it seems to work:

Voter #1: "Eli Manning is eligible this year"
Voter #2: "Two time SB winner"
Voter #3: "You mean 2 time SB MVP"
Gumby: "He was not as consistent during his career as other players"
Voter #2: "Sir...you understand what the word "Fame" means, right?"
Voter #1: "Beat the previously unbeaten Pats with a 2 minute drive that has NEVER been done by any other player ever"
Voter #4: "Still show the highlight play every year"
Morehead: Not great stats, compared to some"
Voter #1: "Not sure how you guys got in here, but we are looking at a careers, not lines on a spreadsheet."
Voter #5: "Beat the Pats again with another patented come from behind win that featured yet another play that we see every year."
Voter #2: "doesn't he have some sort of record for most come from behind wins?"
Voter #3 "wasn't he the iron man at some point in his career?"
Harooni: "fellas...Let's talk about his lack of being an MVP..."
Voter #1 "I'm gonna have to ask you to put on some pants, sir"

4thand1
05-24-2013, 05:10 PM
Everybody knows that putting up completions, yards and TDs against the jaguars, titans, jets, bills, panthers and bucs in the regular season is far more important than making two incredible passes on SB winning drives that will be replayed for the next two decades.

We should have a computer sort through regular season stats and spit out who is HOF worthy.

Morehead State
05-24-2013, 06:47 PM
It is not the "Hall of Consistency"
It is not the "Hall of Stats"

I have to say, the attempts to say Eli is not qualified based on these factors comes across as absolutely desperate - a monkey with a stick can point to player after player in the Hall who were neither.

It's the Hall of Fame.

And here's how it seems to work:

Voter #1: "Eli Manning is eligible this year"
Voter #2: "Two time SB winner"
Voter #3: "You mean 2 time SB MVP"
Gumby: "He was not as consistent during his career as other players"
Voter #2: "Sir...you understand what the word "Fame" means, right?"
Voter #1: "Beat the previously unbeaten Pats with a 2 minute drive that has NEVER been done by any other player ever"
Voter #4: "Still show the highlight play every year"
Morehead: Not great stats, compared to some"
Voter #1: "Not sure how you guys got in here, but we are looking at a careers, not lines on a spreadsheet."
Voter #5: "Beat the Pats again with another patented come from behind win that featured yet another play that we see every year."
Voter #2: "doesn't he have some sort of record for most come from behind wins?"
Voter #3 "wasn't he the iron man at some point in his career?"
Harooni: "fellas...Let's talk about his lack of being an MVP..."
Voter #1 "I'm gonna have to ask you to put on some pants, sir"

My friend......Your a great poster and I have enjoyed conversations with you over the years..... I remember years ago in one of those "who's the best poster on the MB" threads where Fbomb named you and I as the two best posters on the Giants message board. So I have great respect for you. But leave me out of this nonsense. I'm happy to talk about football, agree or disagree.
If you want my opinion, just ask and I am happy to give it to you, and I will do it respectfully. But I can speak for myself. Please don't presume to speak for me.

AllHailEli
05-24-2013, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE=fansince69;772210] To be fair, he didn't turn it on until his 7/8th season - the exact same time when Eli turned it on in 2011. It's why we're all so disappointed in 2012, because we thought Eli's trajectory would rival that of Brees and Brady and the same point in their careers. Instead he reverted back to "original" form.

Dang, I guess it's still the same old topic since I left. Lol! It did not help that Nicks was hurt all season long, it certainly does not help that both Nicks and Cruz are not in the OTA currently. Two Super Bowls with two sets of receivers, may turn out three different sets of receivers if this keeps up.

uther99
05-24-2013, 09:06 PM
If he has another 2011 in him then yes. If it's closer to 2012 then no.

This seems about right

Flip Empty
05-24-2013, 09:24 PM
Man, can't we just skip ahead 15 years to find out the answer to this?

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 09:25 PM
Man, can't we just skip ahead 15 years to find out the answer to this?If someone has a time machine, then sure.

gumby74
05-24-2013, 10:30 PM
Forget the word "elite". That's too subjective. My definition just happens to be stricter than others. Let's use "head and shoulders above the pack". The problem isn't that he's just 5th-6th best. The problem is that there's still debate on how good he actually is. Rodgers No debate. Brady. No debate. Peyton. No debate. Heck, Ben. No debate. It's just unanimous he's not as good as those other 3. He may not be "head and shoulders above the pack" but you know exact what you're getting with him - good solid play day in and day out. With Eli, how highly people think of him varies as much as his consistency.


imo, this just shows how biased you are. theres aspects of each of the qbs u listed, especially ben, that are highly debatable in terms of where they rank among their peers. Peyton- can he play like he does in the regular season when it counts most, in the playoffs? Brady- Since the whole spygate issue, he has not won a SB despite putting up mind blowing regular season games. Can he be effective when the pass rush is getting home? the whole tap dance thing. players even publically call him out altho that could be jealousy. Rodgers- 2 phenomenal yrs, no disputing that. but is this level something he sustains or does he drop back down to earth? only has had 1 good playoff run. also has a history of concussions. further, is he a great qb in a good system or a good qb in a great system (Flynn, who is still a back up, broke records for a single game performance. also played exceptional when called upon in GB altho it was rarely needed)...Big Ben I'm not even gonna begin to list, I'll just say its apparent injuries plague him, and that he struggles when being forced to stay inside the pocket and not revert to the backyard qb. last yr had his worst yr since his first 2-3 yrs in an offense that was built on reading the D and making quick decisions...worst qb performance on a winning sb team (his wr had more td passes than him) for 1, and the other was vs an AZ team that at that time was cnsidered the worst sb team in history whether fairly or not, and how he played poorly vs GB, off field stuff, etc.
elis, knock, he doesnt put up fantasy football #s as consistently as he helps lead the team to victory. forces throws too often. regular season has peaks and valleys...

doesnt seem like they're head n shoulders above eli at all

Ben is not head and shoulders above Eli. Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, and Peyton are. If you don't think so that fine, but pretty much the overwhelming majority agree with that. For that reason, if anyone was to have some sort of bias, it would be you.

gumby74
05-24-2013, 10:34 PM
It is not the "Hall of Consistency"
It is not the "Hall of Stats"

I have to say, the attempts to say Eli is not qualified based on these factors comes across as absolutely desperate - a monkey with a stick can point to player after player in the Hall who were neither.

It's the Hall of Fame.

And here's how it seems to work:

Voter #1: "Eli Manning is eligible this year"
Voter #2: "Two time SB winner"
Voter #3: "You mean 2 time SB MVP"
Gumby: "He was not as consistent during his career as other players"
Voter #2: "Sir...you understand what the word "Fame" means, right?"
Voter #1: "Beat the previously unbeaten Pats with a 2 minute drive that has NEVER been done by any other player ever"
Voter #4: "Still show the highlight play every year"
Morehead: Not great stats, compared to some"
Voter #1: "Not sure how you guys got in here, but we are looking at a careers, not lines on a spreadsheet."
Voter #5: "Beat the Pats again with another patented come from behind win that featured yet another play that we see every year."
Voter #2: "doesn't he have some sort of record for most come from behind wins?"
Voter #3 "wasn't he the iron man at some point in his career?"
Harooni: "fellas...Let's talk about his lack of being an MVP..."
Voter #1 "I'm gonna have to ask you to put on some pants, sir"

That's all fine and good. But I did say that Eli WILL get into the HoF. If you want to quote me, at least do it correctly.

gumby74
05-24-2013, 10:42 PM
there's no debate on how good Ben is?

That seems about right. After all he did carry the steelers to a title with a 22.6 passer rating in the super bowl.

There is very little debate on whether or not Ben is a top QB. No articles. No analysts coming out and saying Ben is not that good. No articles saying how Ben is not that good. No articles saying Ben is NOT a HoF. Now contrast that with Eli.

TCHOF
05-24-2013, 10:45 PM
Brady over Peyton? ROFL

You actually roll on the floor laughing about the idea that Brady is a better QB than Peyton? Hmmm

EliDaMANning
05-24-2013, 10:54 PM
You actually roll on the floor laughing about the idea that Brady is a better QB than Peyton? Hmmmyes it's hilarious.

ShakeandBake
05-24-2013, 10:57 PM
yes it's hilarious.

Why is it hilarious? They are two of the top QBs in the game, both better than Eli at this point in their careers.

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 11:00 PM
In what way is Eli better than both Brady or Peyton? Don't bring up SB's either, that seems to be the only argument some can come up with. What skills does Eli possess that Brady and Peyton or Rodgers don't possess or cannot do?

byron
05-24-2013, 11:10 PM
In what way is Eli better than both Brady or Peyton? Don't bring up SB's either, that seems to be the only argument some can come up with. What skills does Eli possess that Brady and Peyton or Rodgers don't possess or cannot do? slide head first

Rudyy
05-24-2013, 11:18 PM
slide head firstlmfao

chasjay
05-24-2013, 11:32 PM
I've been checking in and reading once or twice a week all offseason and this what I find

4thand1
05-24-2013, 11:33 PM
There is very little debate on whether or not Ben is a top QB. No articles. No analysts coming out and saying Ben is not that good. No articles saying how Ben is not that good. No articles saying Ben is NOT a HoF. Now contrast that with Eli.

Let's see those articles which say Eli is "not that good" since he's won his 2nd SB MVP.

4thand1
05-25-2013, 12:01 AM
In what way is Eli better than both Brady or Peyton? Don't bring up SB's either, that seems to be the only argument some can come up with. What skills does Eli possess that Brady and Peyton or Rodgers don't possess or cannot do?

Uh.... nobody posted that Eli was better than both Brady and Peyton.

Nice strawman you just built.

gumby74
05-25-2013, 12:11 AM
Let's see those articles which say Eli is "not that good" since he's won his 2nd SB MVP. He's only 1 year removed from his last SB. Give it more time. If he continues his current trend, you'll see plenty more .. especially with the young bucks nipping at his heels.

And yeah. As amusing as this is, I'm done here.

4thand1
05-25-2013, 12:47 AM
He's only 1 year removed from his last SB. Give it more time. If he continues his current trend, you'll see plenty more .. especially with the young bucks nipping at his heels.

And yeah. As amusing as this is, I'm done here.

Oh ok

Cause I thought we were talking about comparing how people thought of Eli and Ben NOW as opposed to before Eli won his 2nd title.

Maybe you can dig through 2004 and 2005 articles to make the case that everyone thinks Eli manning is terrible. LOL

And by "plenty more", you give the impression that there WERE articles saying that eli isn't any good since his last SB win, but you haven't listed any.

Drez
05-25-2013, 01:27 AM
There is very little debate on whether or not Ben is a top QB. No articles. No analysts coming out and saying Ben is not that good. No articles saying how Ben is not that good. No articles saying Ben is NOT a HoF. Now contrast that with Eli.There aren't any articles saying that Ben IS a HoFer, either.

giantsfan420
05-25-2013, 02:03 AM
Show me otherwise.nah. when u said, "it why we're all disappointed with his 2012 season bc he played like that rookie QB" of however u worded it, thats not really accurate at all. and we covered this so many times, dont feel like repeating myself again.

giantsfan420
05-25-2013, 02:04 AM
It is not the "Hall of Consistency"
It is not the "Hall of Stats"

I have to say, the attempts to say Eli is not qualified based on these factors comes across as absolutely desperate - a monkey with a stick can point to player after player in the Hall who were neither.

It's the Hall of Fame.

And here's how it seems to work:

Voter #1: "Eli Manning is eligible this year"
Voter #2: "Two time SB winner"
Voter #3: "You mean 2 time SB MVP"
Gumby: "He was not as consistent during his career as other players"
Voter #2: "Sir...you understand what the word "Fame" means, right?"
Voter #1: "Beat the previously unbeaten Pats with a 2 minute drive that has NEVER been done by any other player ever"
Voter #4: "Still show the highlight play every year"
Morehead: Not great stats, compared to some"
Voter #1: "Not sure how you guys got in here, but we are looking at a careers, not lines on a spreadsheet."
Voter #5: "Beat the Pats again with another patented come from behind win that featured yet another play that we see every year."
Voter #2: "doesn't he have some sort of record for most come from behind wins?"
Voter #3 "wasn't he the iron man at some point in his career?"
Harooni: "fellas...Let's talk about his lack of being an MVP..."
Voter #1 "I'm gonna have to ask you to put on some pants, sir"awesome. totally awesome.

giantsfan420
05-25-2013, 02:10 AM
and gumby, absolutely people, the majority (which u seem to fall back on a lot lately, careful, thats a slippery slope. majority also went along in germany during the 1930s and 40s...) would rank peyton and brady and rodgers as the better REGULAR, R-E-G-U-L-A-R season QBs. I'd say, among peoples opinions I respect, and just general knowledgeable fans, recognize Eli is the better postseason/big game QB. a majority in fact.

L.T.56
05-25-2013, 03:49 AM
Eli's stats so far as it stands:146 consecutive starts (including playoffs). 78-57 regular season record. 8-3 playoff record. 31,527 passing yards. 211 TD - 144 INT. 17 TD - 8 INT in the playoffs. Career Completion percentage: 58.6. Career quarterback rating: 82.7. 2X Super Bowl MVP. I agree that we should wait until his career ends to make a fair assement. I think that at the rate he's going with his longevity that he can greatly improve his stats and possibly have another postseason run in him. Right now he's 32 so I think he can atleast play another 6-8 years.

Harooni
05-25-2013, 08:15 AM
and gumby, absolutely people, the majority (which u seem to fall back on a lot lately, careful, thats a slippery slope. majority also went along in germany during the 1930s and 40s...) would rank peyton and brady and rodgers as the better REGULAR, R-E-G-U-L-A-R season QBs. I'd say, among peoples opinions I respect, and just general knowledgeable fans, recognize Eli is the better postseason/big game QB. a majority in fact.

are you saying people that dont think Eli is a HOF'er yet are liken to a monster???

Harooni
05-25-2013, 08:25 AM
The year 2022 Eli is eligible for the HOF

Voter 1 - well so many other QB's have better stats and SB's, also we cant put everyone in
Voter 2- How can we put a QB in that can't execute a simple QB slide?
Voter 3 - I went to school with Archie , he is in
Voter 4 - Almost there but not a first ballot
Voter 5 - Would like to see a league MVP clearly not the best at his position in his time.
Delicreep- Well 50 years ago guys got in with worse stats -he belongs
voter 6 - you do realize the game has changed quite a bit since then and today Godell has a no sack rule in effect and QB's are throwing for 6,000 yards

GameTime
05-25-2013, 08:29 AM
what a joke....
everybody doesnt have to agree on Eli's future.....

Harooni
05-25-2013, 08:32 AM
what a joke....
everybody doesnt have to agree on Eli's future.....
just having him mentioned should be enough for all.

TCHOF
05-25-2013, 08:45 AM
yes it's hilarious.

You either have a very bad sense of humor, or you don't know very much about football . . . . or perhaps both

gumby74
05-25-2013, 10:04 AM
There aren't any articles saying that Ben IS a HoFer, either. I agree. But the point being that there are no "negative" articles written about Ben regarding his QB play. The fact that he's a scumbag is another story.

B&RWarrior
05-25-2013, 10:10 AM
If he retires right now would you put Eli in the HOF? Even with the 2 SB MVP's I'd say no. Over his entire career he hasn't been that great, IMHO. The level that he played at in 2011 is HOF worthy. He hasn't played 8 years of HOF quality ball.

4thand1
05-25-2013, 10:20 AM
I agree. But the point being that there are no "negative" articles written about Ben regarding his QB play. The fact that he's a scumbag is another story.

Are there such articles for Eli after he won his second ring?

You haven't been able to provide any yet you keep bringing this up

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 10:25 AM
and gumby, absolutely people, the majority (which u seem to fall back on a lot lately, careful, thats a slippery slope. majority also went along in germany during the 1930s and 40s...) would rank peyton and brady and rodgers as the better REGULAR, R-E-G-U-L-A-R season QBs. I'd say, among peoples opinions I respect, and just general knowledgeable fans, recognize Eli is the better postseason/big game QB. a majority in fact.

I dont disagree. Only problem is, he cant consistently get into the post season. There have also been times, as you well know, that he HAS gotten in, and looked very much like a rookie making inexplicable mistakes, rather than a seasoned vet who certainly should know better. Mind you, not all of those losses were soley his fault, but he did play a small to medium role in them, at the very least.

Those things will come up in future conversations between HOF voters. His wild inconsistency has not been confined to ony the regular season, and while he has proven that he can handle the pressures of the post season, the inconsistency was still very much in evidence in the years the Giants were one and done with Eli under center.

ShakeandBake
05-25-2013, 10:30 AM
are you saying people that dont think Eli is a HOF'er yet are liken to a monster???

That's what I gathered from his statement as well, apparently if you don't think Eli will be HOFer, you are a Nazi.

4thand1
05-25-2013, 10:31 AM
I dont disagree. Only problem is, he cant consistently get into the post season. There have also been times, as you well know, that he HAS gotten in, and looked very much like a rookie making inexplicable mistakes, rather than a seasoned vet who certainly should know better. Mind you, not all of those losses were soley his fault, but he did play a small to medium role in them, at the very least.

Those things will come up in future conversations between HOF voters. His wild inconsistency has not been confined to ony the regular season, and while he has proven that he can handle the pressures of the post season, the inconsistency was still very much in evidence in the years the Giants were one and done with Eli under center.

inconsistent in the playoffs? In a sample of 11 games, most QBs would have some games that are terrible, especially if you consider the fact that his 0TD 3INT performance vs Carolina came in his first full season.

In 14 playoff games, Roethlisberger has put up passer ratings of 22.6 (SB Win), 35.5 (Title game win), and 57.8 (divisional round win).

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 10:37 AM
Are there such articles for Eli after he won his second ring?You haven't been able to provide any yet you keep bringing this uphttp://deadspin.com/5856867/eli-manning-beats-tom-brady-will-still-not-be-considered-elite-your-sunday-nfl-roundup http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/feed/2012-11/against-the-grain/story/eli-manning-new-york-giants-qb-nfl-week-16-baltimore-ravens http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094619/article/phil-simms-eli-manning-a-champion-but-hes-not-elite

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 10:38 AM
All those articles are after the second Super Bowl, and provide pretty good reasons as to why he isn't elite.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 10:38 AM
If he retires right now would you put Eli in the HOF? Even with the 2 SB MVP's I'd say no. Over his entire career he hasn't been that great, IMHO. The level that he played at in 2011 is HOF worthy. He hasn't played 8 years of HOF quality ball.

If this discussion was right after winning the last Super Bowl, what would be your sentiment? I feel like people are making this comment based on what happened lately. Who ever thought we'd actually be competitive in 2011 in the playoffs and win the whole thing? Those 2 Super Bowl wins were as long shot as they come. Their value did not diminish because we were not able to repeat last season. Honestly, the value of Eli Manning will probably not be fully realized until you're staring at a decade without Super Bowl after he hangs it up and that is if we're lucky it will not take us another 17 years or more. In which case, how much stock do you put on that 2 Super Bowl MVPs for HOF consideration? Why can't we just enjoy this time? Because surely I'm not looking forward to a future when Eli Manning is being nominated for HOF while our current QB is once again a problem, and we have a revolving door for them.

TheAnalyst
05-25-2013, 10:42 AM
No. He needs 5 superbowl championships to be considered in the Tom Brady super awesome HOF class.

Now Ryan Nassib on the other hand, he is already way ahead of eli.

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 10:42 AM
If this discussion was right after winning the last Super Bowl, what would be your sentiment? I feel like people are making this comment based on what happened lately. Who ever thought we'd actually be competitive in 2011 in the playoffs and win the whole thing? Those 2 Super Bowl wins were as long shot as they come. Their value did not diminish because we were not able to repeat last season. Honestly, the value of Eli Manning will probably not be fully realized until you're staring at a decade without Super Bowl after he hangs it up and that is if we're lucky it will not take us another 17 years or more. In which case, how much stock do you put on that 2 Super Bowl MVPs for HOF consideration? Why can't we just enjoy this time? Because surely I'm not looking forward to a future when Eli Manning is being nominated for HOF while our current QB is once again a problem, and we have a revolving door for them.Well that's kind of unfair. You praise Eli Manning, but suggest our future QB will be a problem? How do you know he will be? I understand what you're saying; appreciate Eli while he is still here. I'm pretty sure most Giants fans appreciate him.

ShakeandBake
05-25-2013, 10:45 AM
Well that's kind of unfair. You praise Eli Manning, but suggest our future QB will be a problem? How do you know he will be? I understand what you're saying; appreciate Eli while he is still here. I'm pretty sure most Giants fans appreciate him.

Green Bay replaced Brett Favre, but remember no one could possibly replace Eli. Ever.

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 10:59 AM
inconsistent in the playoffs? In a sample of 11 games, most QBs would have some games that are terrible, especially if you consider the fact that his 0TD 3INT performance vs Carolina came in his first full season.

In 14 playoff games, Roethlisberger has put up passer ratings of 22.6 (SB Win), 35.5 (Title game win), and 57.8 (divisional round win).

What Ben Roethisberger has done is completely irrelevant in a thread about Eli Manning being worthy of a HOF induction. Passer rating is even more irrelevant. If you want to base your argument that Ben isn't anywhere near as good as Eli, and your only criteria is passer rating, then by all means, have a look at this list

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

As of 2012, Ben is #9 ALL TIME. Where is Eli? #35. Take a gander at who sits at #5 while you're there

Still want to travel down that road?

Eli is still inconsistent

appodictic
05-25-2013, 11:05 AM
Close, don't close? Hmmmmmm

When you look at the like of current HOF qb's I think he has a little ways to go. I think he is on-track another SB would put it over the top oreven a few good post season runs.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 11:07 AM
Well that's kind of unfair. You praise Eli Manning, but suggest our future QB will be a problem? How do you know he will be? I understand what you're saying; appreciate Eli while he is still here. I'm pretty sure most Giants fans appreciate him.

Well, the last time it only took 17 years to win another one, and there was a revolving door for them. If we are going with history, that's not looking good. It took a trade for a number 1 pick to get those 2 Super Bowls. Those other QBs after the 2nd SB, none were first round picks and never got us anywhere. We at least signed out of FA Kerry Collins and got us to the SB but he was not able to seal the deal. Either we totally suck to get a very high pick and the class of QBs are really good, or I won't bet my life savings this QB will come out of nowhere because we're that lucky. We may be very good drafting defensive players, but we ain't lucky drafting QBs. The last time we did, it ain't luck, we paid a premium price for it. And if you guys can't wait when we have a 9-7 team going to the playoffs without a clutch QB to even give you a chance, then I'd say best regards. That 2011 team should not even be in a sniffing distance of a Super Bowl, and that's just being real.

Ntegrase96
05-25-2013, 11:07 AM
What Ben Roethisberger has done is completely irrelevant in a thread about Eli Manning being worthy of a HOF induction. Passer rating is even more irrelevant. If you want to base your argument that Ben isn't anywhere near as good as Eli, and your only criteria is passer rating, then by all means, have a look at this list

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

As of 2012, Ben is #9 ALL TIME. Where is Eli? #35. Take a gander at who sits at #5 while you're there

Still want to travel down that road?

Eli is still inconsistent

FINALLY, someone brings up Romo... the superior quarterback and automatic hall of famer.

Kidding aside, I think it's even more telling how meaningless passer rating is that Schaub is 11 on that list. Matt Freaking Schaub.

gumby74
05-25-2013, 11:10 AM
and gumby, absolutely people, the majority (which u seem to fall back on a lot lately, careful, thats a slippery slope. majority also went along in germany during the 1930s and 40s...) would rank peyton and brady and rodgers as the better REGULAR, R-E-G-U-L-A-R season QBs. I'd say, among peoples opinions I respect, and just general knowledgeable fans, recognize Eli is the better postseason/big game QB. a majority in fact.

We're assessing the total body of work. Not just a select handful.

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 11:13 AM
Well, the last time it only took 17 years to win another one, and there was a revolving door for them. If we are going with history, that's not looking good. It took a trade for a number 1 pick to get those 2 Super Bowls. Those other QBs after the 2nd SB, none were first round picks and never got us anywhere. We at least signed out of FA Kerry Collins and got us to the SB but he was not able to seal the deal. Either we totally suck to get a very high pick and the class of QBs are really good, or I won't bet my life savings this QB will come out of nowhere because we're that lucky. We may be very good drafting defensive players, but we ain't lucky drafting QBs. The last time we did, it ain't luck, we paid a premium price for it. And if you guys can't wait when we have a 9-7 team going to the playoffs without a clutch QB to even give you a chance, then I'd say best regards. That 2011 team should not even be in a sniffing distance of a Super Bowl, and that's just being real.You can't look at history and say that's how we will be in the future. We don't need a number one pick to draft a decent quarterback. Russell Wilson wasn't picked until the third round. Brady not until the sixth. Am I saying our future QB will be a stud? Absolutely not, but Eli is not irreplaceable. It might take a while for our next QB to get things right- big deal..it took Eli a few years.

TroyArcher
05-25-2013, 11:15 AM
Hopefully he gets another ring and then it will be a no brainer. Are there any retired QB's that have won 2 SB's or more and did not make the HOF?

ShakeandBake
05-25-2013, 11:15 AM
What Ben Roethisberger has done is completely irrelevant in a thread about Eli Manning being worthy of a HOF induction. Passer rating is even more irrelevant. If you want to base your argument that Ben isn't anywhere near as good as Eli, and your only criteria is passer rating, then by all means, have a look at this list

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

As of 2012, Ben is #9 ALL TIME. Where is Eli? #35. Take a gander at who sits at #5 while you're there

Still want to travel down that road?

Eli is still inconsistent

Neil Lomax and Brian Griese are pretty good company

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 11:16 AM
I also find it funny that some posters like to harshly criticize other QB's to bring Eli up. How about looking at ELI's body of work as opposed to comparing him.

yatitle
05-25-2013, 11:18 AM
Hopefully he gets another ring and then it will be a no brainer. Are there any retired QB's that have won 2 SB's or more and did not make the HOF?

Jim Plunkett is the only one.

gumby74
05-25-2013, 11:18 AM
nah. when u said, "it why we're all disappointed with his 2012 season bc he played like that rookie QB" of however u worded it, thats not really accurate at all. and we covered this so many times, dont feel like repeating myself again.

actually i said he "reverted back to original form". Very different. 2011 was clearly an aberation.

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 11:20 AM
You can't look at history and say that's how we will be in the future. We don't need a number one pick to draft a decent quarterback. Russell Wilson wasn't picked until the third round. Brady not until the sixth. Am I saying our future QB will be a stud? Absolutely not, but Eli is not irreplaceable. It might take a while for our next QB to get things right- big deal..it took Eli a few years.

This appears to be a major sticking point with a lot of people. That can be attributed to him being put on a pedestal

Let me hasten to add that I am not taking shots at anyone for their opinions of Eli Manning. I just think that some of those opinions are entirely too unrealistic and over the top. He can, and will, be replaced eventually, and that does not spell certain doom for the team.

gumby74
05-25-2013, 11:23 AM
FINALLY, someone brings up Romo... the superior quarterback and automatic hall of famer.

Kidding aside, I think it's even more telling how meaningless passer rating is that Schaub is 11 on that list. Matt Freaking Schaub.

Far from meaningless. Does it tell the entire story? Absolutely not. But it's a pretty good indicator. Most the time a QB with a passer rating of 110 performed better than a QB of 85. If you look at the formula, passer rating rewards efficiency. Everything is normalized per attempt which is why both Ben and Rivers are well ahead of Eli. They all have similar overall stats, but Ben and Rivers did it in fewer (1-2 seasons worth) attempts.

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 11:33 AM
This appears to be a major sticking point with a lot of people. That can be attributed to him being put on a pedestal

Let me hasten to add that I am not taking shots at anyone for their opinions of Eli Manning. I just think that some of those opinions are entirely too unrealistic and over the top. He can, and will, be replaced eventually, and that does not spell certain doom for the team.I think Eli is a top quarterback DESPITE being inconsistent, inaccurate, yadda yadda. Notice how I admit he is actually inconsistent and inaccurate.

These extreme and over the top opinions of him are completely idiotic,,and false, and I'm talking both sides of the spectrum.

bigblue58
05-25-2013, 11:38 AM
come on Giants message boards.....i write a long post, it doesn't load and then I lose it and have to write it over again?


I'll write the abridged version of my original post.

bigblue58
05-25-2013, 11:44 AM
If Phil Simms is considered a borderline HOFer, then Eli should be a HOFer when he's done with his career.
If he wins no other SB's, he already has 2 to Simms 1,......... 2 SB mvp trophies to Simms 1,........ he will have every Giants QB record by the time he's done and if he can stay in the 4k to 5k yds /season club and keep the picks down to reasonable numbers he will finish with a TD/INT/ passing yardage total comparable with QB's who are already in.
That being said however, I'm not a big fan of questions like "is he a HOFer NOW" or " If The Season Ended Today" nonsense, so lets wait and see what he finishes with, which is still a good 5 or 6 years away.
And although it might come as a surprise to Eli haters, he already has amassed an impressive list of records and accomplishments which he will no doubt add on to.
Not nearly enough attention is paid to his intangibles or the fact that he has been elite in the post season and SB, when it's supposed to count the most.
The debate will never be settle until the criteria for induction is changed to shine a brighter light on post season and SB performance over gaudy regular season numbers.
If a player has fat career numbers for the regular season but is an established, consistent choke artist in the post season, that should be considered.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 11:50 AM
You can't look at history and say that's how we will be in the future. We don't need a number one pick to draft a decent quarterback. Russell Wilson wasn't picked until the third round. Brady not until the sixth. Am I saying our future QB will be a stud? Absolutely not, but Eli is not irreplaceable. It might take a while for our next QB to get things right- big deal..it took Eli a few years.

But that's not our history, and you can't put a stock on the type of luck other teams have. Yeah, because we know Brady's caliber is dime a dozen...NOT! How often does this actually happen? It's almost as elusive as winning the Super Bowl in the first place. You want some kind of success and improve your probability -- you draft at a very high pick. Redskins sold the farm for RG3 given half the chance. We did the same thing to get Eli.

And if you guys don't think winning a Super Bowl is not as elusive as they come, much less winning two, I'll give you top three reasons:

3. Dan Marino
2. 2007 Patriots
1. Eagles

Rusell Wilson is impressive but he has notnwon a Super Bowl yet. So yeah, can't wait to get the next Brady in the 6th round.

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 11:56 AM
But that's not our history, and you can't put a stock on the type of luck other teams have. Yeah, because we know Brady's caliber is dime a dozen...NOT! How often does this actually happen? It's almost as elusive as winning the Super Bowl in the first place. You want some kind of success and improve your probability -- you draft at a very high pick. Redskins sold the farm for RG3 given half the chance. We did the same thing to get Eli. And if you guys don't think winning a Super Bowl is not as elusive as they come, much less winning two, I'll give you top three reasons:3. Dan Marino2. 2007 Patriots1. EaglesRusell Wilson is impressive but he has notnwon a Super Bowl yet. So yeah, can't wait to get the next Brady in the 6th round.You are missing the entire point. I never said Brady like QB's are falling from the heavens, I'm stating you don't necessarily need to draft a quarterback with the first overall pick to have a decent quarterback, luck or no luck. As far as winning Super Bowls you need a quality head coach and team around your QB.

Morehead State
05-25-2013, 12:12 PM
But that's not our history, and you can't put a stock on the type of luck other teams have. Yeah, because we know Brady's caliber is dime a dozen...NOT! How often does this actually happen? It's almost as elusive as winning the Super Bowl in the first place. You want some kind of success and improve your probability -- you draft at a very high pick. Redskins sold the farm for RG3 given half the chance. We did the same thing to get Eli.

And if you guys don't think winning a Super Bowl is not as elusive as they come, much less winning two, I'll give you top three reasons:

3. Dan Marino
2. 2007 Patriots
1. Eagles

Rusell Wilson is impressive but he has notnwon a Super Bowl yet. So yeah, can't wait to get the next Brady in the 6th round.

Winning a SB is NOT the standard for greatness. Not at all. Winning SB's is a TEAM accomplishment. It takes a lot of factors that are out of the control of any one player. Eli has zero SB wins if our defense didn't play great in both SB runs, if Plaxico didn't abuse Al Harris. If Wes Welker makes an easy catch etc......
These SB wins are great for us fans. We love it. Its as memorable as anything we experience as fans. But they don't measure the greatness of a player.
Dan Marino is one of/ if not THE greatest QB of all time.

Greatness is measured by greatness. You are either great or your not. You can be mediocre and win a SB. You can be great and never win one. There is only one trophy to hand out in any year.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:14 PM
You are missing the entire point. I never said Brady like QB's are falling from the heavens, I'm stating you don't necessarily need to draft a quarterback with the first overall pick to have a decent quarterback, luck or no luck. As far as winning Super Bowls you need a quality head coach and team around your QB.

The only currency that's worth any value for a fan is a championship. How often does a Brady show up deep in the rounds? Are we settling now for decent QBs in lieu of not winning the whole thing? That was our problem in the 90s, we did not have any QB that was a first round pick. You need more than a decent QB for the outscored team of 2011 to make it to the Super Bowl and win. What it tells you about 2011 is that team was at the bottom of pass blocking and rushing, and they've been outscored because our defense stunk and needed too many 4th quarter comebacks. You need more than a decent QB to deliver you that championship, a decent one will not cut it. As I said, winning a Super Bowl is as elusive as they come, only took us 17 years and a life-changing trade to make it happen. I'm just not sure people fully realize how difficult it is to win a Super Bowl in the first place, just because people are taking for granted the last 2 we've won and expecting the same result every year and forgot the years in between.

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 12:19 PM
The only currency that's worth any value for a fan is a championship. How often does a Brady show up deep in the rounds? Are we settling now for decent QBs in lieu of not winning the whole thing? That was our problem in the 90s, we did not have any QB that was a first round pick. You need more than a decent QB for the outscored team of 2011 to make it to the Super Bowl and win. What it tells you about 2011 is that team was at the bottom of pass blocking and rushing, and they've been outscored because our defense stunk and needed too many 4th quarter comebacks. You need more than a decent QB to deliver you that championship, a decent one will not cut it. As I said, winning a Super Bowl is as elusive as they come, only took us 17 years and a life-changing trade to make it happen. I'm just not sure people fully realize how difficult it is to win a Super Bowl in the first place, just because people are taking for granted the last 2 we've won and expecting the same result every year and forgot the years in between.Ok, you're not following what I'm saying. So that's that.

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:19 PM
Winning a SB is NOT the standard for greatness. Not at all. Winning SB's is a TEAM accomplishment. It takes a lot of factors that are out of the control of any one player. Eli has zero SB wins if our defense didn't play great in both SB runs, if Plaxico didn't abuse Al Harris. If Wes Welker makes an easy catch etc......
These SB wins are great for us fans. We love it. Its as memorable as anything we experience as fans. But they don't measure the greatness of a player.
Dan Marino is one of/ if not THE greatest QB of all time.

Greatness is measured by greatness. You are either great or your not. You can be mediocre and win a SB. You can be great and never win one. There is only one trophy to hand out in any year.ask trent dilfer

ShakeandBake
05-25-2013, 12:20 PM
The only currency that's worth any value for a fan is a championship. How often does a Brady show up deep in the rounds? Are we settling now for decent QBs in lieu of not winning the whole thing? That was our problem in the 90s, we did not have any QB that was a first round pick. You need more than a decent QB for the outscored team of 2011 to make it to the Super Bowl and win. What it tells you about 2011 is that team was at the bottom of pass blocking and rushing, and they've been outscored because our defense stunk and needed too many 4th quarter comebacks. You need more than a decent QB to deliver you that championship, a decent one will not cut it. As I said, winning a Super Bowl is as elusive as they come, only took us 17 years and a life-changing trade to make it happen. I'm just not sure people fully realize how difficult it is to win a Super Bowl in the first place, just because people are taking for granted the last 2 we've won and expecting the same result every year and forgot the years in between.

No, its as simple as some people being able to realize that Eli contributed to our two most recent super bowl wins, while others think he won those super bowls by himself exclusively.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:21 PM
Winning a SB is NOT the standard for greatness. Not at all. Winning SB's is a TEAM accomplishment. It takes a lot of factors that are out of the control of any one player. Eli has zero SB wins if our defense didn't play great in both SB runs, if Plaxico didn't abuse Al Harris. If Wes Welker makes an easy catch etc......
These SB wins are great for us fans. We love it. Its as memorable as anything we experience as fans. But they don't measure the greatness of a player.
Dan Marino is one of/ if not THE greatest QB of all time.

Greatness is measured by greatness. You are either great or your not. You can be mediocre and win a SB. You can be great and never win one. There is only one trophy to hand out in any year.

Please refer to my last post on how much stock I put on championship. :)

Morehead State
05-25-2013, 12:21 PM
The only currency that's worth any value for a fan is a championship. How often does a Brady show up deep in the rounds? Are we settling now for decent QBs in lieu of not winning the whole thing? That was our problem in the 90s, we did not have any QB that was a first round pick. You need more than a decent QB for the outscored team of 2011 to make it to the Super Bowl and win. What it tells you about 2011 is that team was at the bottom of pass blocking and rushing, and they've been outscored because our defense stunk and needed too many 4th quarter comebacks. You need more than a decent QB to deliver you that championship, a decent one will not cut it. As I said, winning a Super Bowl is as elusive as they come, only took us 17 years and a life-changing trade to make it happen. I'm just not sure people fully realize how difficult it is to win a Super Bowl in the first place, just because people are taking for granted the last 2 we've won and expecting the same result every year and forgot the years in between.
This statement is so wrong, I don't even have words.
This is the epitome of a spoiled fan. Try being a Giants fan in the late 60's and 70's.
Maybe its THIS one attitude that is the problem around here.

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:23 PM
This statement is so wrong, I don't even have words.
This is the epitome of a spoiled fan. Try being a Giants fan in the late 60's and 70's.
Maybe its THIS one attitude that is the problem around here.This says a lot......

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:25 PM
The only currency that's worth any value for a fan is a championship. How often does a Brady show up deep in the rounds? Are we settling now for decent QBs in lieu of not winning the whole thing? That was our problem in the 90s, we did not have any QB that was a first round pick. You need more than a decent QB for the outscored team of 2011 to make it to the Super Bowl and win. What it tells you about 2011 is that team was at the bottom of pass blocking and rushing, and they've been outscored because our defense stunk and needed too many 4th quarter comebacks. You need more than a decent QB to deliver you that championship, a decent one will not cut it. As I said, winning a Super Bowl is as elusive as they come, only took us 17 years and a life-changing trade to make it happen. I'm just not sure people fully realize how difficult it is to win a Super Bowl in the first place, just because people are taking for granted the last 2 we've won and expecting the same result every year and forgot the years in between.you do realize Dave brown was our first round pick....right?

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:26 PM
No, its as simple as some people being able to realize that Eli contributed to our two most recent super bowl wins, while others think he won those super bowls by himself exclusively.

Major contribution, considering he won both Super Bowl MVPs. Which part of the 17 years was not painful? The part that we've been in the middle of the pack and could not get a high pick for a QB until 2004? The fact that we had to sign Kerry Collins (he was not drafted by us, ya know) and had a revolving door of QBs? The fact that we always had a great defense and RB, yet going nowhere every year?

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 12:29 PM
Winning a SB is NOT the standard for greatness. Not at all. Winning SB's is a TEAM accomplishment. It takes a lot of factors that are out of the control of any one player. Eli has zero SB wins if our defense didn't play great in both SB runs, if Plaxico didn't abuse Al Harris. If Wes Welker makes an easy catch etc......
These SB wins are great for us fans. We love it. Its as memorable as anything we experience as fans. But they don't measure the greatness of a player.
Dan Marino is one of/ if not THE greatest QB of all time.

Greatness is measured by greatness. You are either great or your not. You can be mediocre and win a SB. You can be great and never win one. There is only one trophy to hand out in any year.

Absolutely spot on. Look at Joe Flacco, the most recent SB winner, and the most recent SBMVP

To me, he is nothing but a very average, middle of the road QB, but yet, he was able to turn his recent victory into what was, at the time, the most lucrative contract in NFL history(or close to it, if I'm wrong). He has his ring, and the MVP award, but he's not a great QB by any stretch, and he obviously doesn't have to be to be successful.

Seems to me that many fans insist that Eli has to be considered great, or else he's being slighted. Why not just be happy with what we've got so far, and hope for more of the same down the road? I think he's a top 10-12 QB, and I'm still glad he's a Giant. Thats enough for me

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 12:30 PM
you do realize Dave brown was our first round pick....right?

That was the supplemental draft

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:31 PM
you do realize Dave brown was our first round pick....right?

You meant in the Supplemental Draft?

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:31 PM
Absolutely spot on. Look at Joe Flacco, the most recent SB winner, and the most recent SBMVP

To me, he is nothing but a very average, middle of the road QB, but yet, he was able to turn his recent victory into what was, at the time, the most lucrative contract in NFL history(or close to it, if I'm wrong). He has his ring, and the MVP award, but he's not a great QB by any stretch, and he obviously doesn't have to be to be successful.

Seems to me that many fans insist that Eli has to be considered great, or else he's being slighted. Why not just be happy with what we've got so far, and hope for more of the same down the road? I think he's a top 10-12 QB, and I'm still glad he's a Giant. Thats enough for meMy thoughts on this subject exactly

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:33 PM
You meant in the Supplemental Draft?you do realize we gave up our first round pick to get that pick...right...first round pick is a first round pick.....

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 12:34 PM
Eli is the most interesting man in the world lol.

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:35 PM
Eli is the most interesting man in the world lol.at least on this message board

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:36 PM
This statement is so wrong, I don't even have words.
This is the epitome of a spoiled fan. Try being a Giants fan in the late 60's and 70's.
Maybe its THIS one attitude that is the problem around here.

Maybe "any value" is not the right term, but in the end all we want is to win a championship. That's eventually the bottom line, not the stats, not the records. There's nothing that's a higher value than championship for a fan.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:37 PM
you do realize we gave up our first round pick to get that pick...right...first round pick is a first round pick.....

And it's supplemental for a reason.

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:39 PM
And it's supplemental for a reason.so who did we pick with our first pick that year?

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:44 PM
Absolutely spot on. Look at Joe Flacco, the most recent SB winner, and the most recent SBMVP

To me, he is nothing but a very average, middle of the road QB, but yet, he was able to turn his recent victory into what was, at the time, the most lucrative contract in NFL history(or close to it, if I'm wrong). He has his ring, and the MVP award, but he's not a great QB by any stretch, and he obviously doesn't have to be to be successful.

Seems to me that many fans insist that Eli has to be considered great, or else he's being slighted. Why not just be happy with what we've got so far, and hope for more of the same down the road? I think he's a top 10-12 QB, and I'm still glad he's a Giant. Thats enough for me

I believe it's the other way around. I think some people do not realize the value of Eli, or do not appreciate what he has done so far, so they try to take him for granted for leading us to those 2 Super Bowls. I could understand giving him grief if he never won one, or even if he only won one, but the guy led us to 2 Super Bowls. You can look at the Eagles who never won one, and I believe that should put people in perspective, instead they want Eli to break all records and stats. And for a fan, that's totally lower than winning championship.

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:45 PM
so who did we pick with our first pick that year?lets try this another way...David Carr was a first overall pick....alex smith ...mark sanchez....all franchise QBS...right?I have no idea of the actual numbers...but choosing a qb in the first round is a crap shoot and just as many suck... if not more... than go on to be great...or even good....In theory I agree with your premise of needing a franchise qb...drafting one in the first round does not bring any guarantees

Rudyy
05-25-2013, 12:51 PM
I believe it's the other way around. I think some people do not realize the value of Eli, or do not appreciate what he has done so far, so they try to take him for granted for leading us to those 2 Super Bowls. I could understand giving him grief if he never won one, or even if he only won one, but the guy led us to 2 Super Bowls. You can look at the Eagles who never won one, and I believe that should put people in perspective, instead they want Eli to break all records and stats. And for a fan, that's totally lower than winning championship.Do you really think people don't appreciate Eli? Some just don't think he's the greatest quarterback ever. That doesn't mean he's under appreciated. If you think Eli not being considered great means he's under appreciated, I'm sorry, but that is being spoiled.

Die-Hard
05-25-2013, 12:52 PM
I believe it's the other way around. I think some people do not realize the value of Eli, or do not appreciate what he has done so far, so they try to take him for granted for leading us to those 2 Super Bowls. I could understand giving him grief if he never won one, or even if he only won one, but the guy led us to 2 Super Bowls. You can look at the Eagles who never won one, and I believe that should put people in perspective, instead they want Eli to break all records and stats. And for a fan, that's totally lower than winning championship.

I think you're over-valuing those Super Bowls with regard to whether or not Eli will get into the HOF, which was, at one time, the point of this thread LOL

Super Bowls are great, and the ultimate goal of every NFL team in every NFL season. However, winning one or more of them guarantees NOTHING, and doesn't automatically elevate the winning QB to "great" status, nor does it make him irreplaceable.

Trying to help people gain a bit of perspective. Nothing more.

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:53 PM
lets try this another way...David Carr was a first overall pick....alex smith ...mark sanchez....all franchise QBS...right?I have no idea of the actual numbers...but choosing a qb in the first round is a crap shoot and just as many suck... if not more... than go on to be great...or even good....In theory I agree with your premise of needing a franchise qb...drafting one in the first round does not bring any guarantees

No, it is not entirely a shot in the dark when you draft a QB at a very high pick. Sure, there are failures, but it's still a much higher probability of getting a legitimate franchise QB in the top pick than being lucky and getting a Brady in the deeper round. How often did a Brady come along and the chances that Brady was not a first round pick? That's about once in a blue moon. By the way, Mark Sanchez is not an overall pick. And he was successful for the first few years until they messed up with his psyche.

Delicreep
05-25-2013, 12:53 PM
The year 2022 Eli is eligible for the HOF

Voter 1 - well so many other QB's have better stats and SB's, also we cant put everyone in
Voter 2- How can we put a QB in that can't execute a simple QB slide?
Voter 3 - I went to school with Archie , he is in
Voter 4 - Almost there but not a first ballot
Voter 5 - Would like to see a league MVP clearly not the best at his position in his time.
Delicreep- Well 50 years ago guys got in with worse stats -he belongs
voter 6 - you do realize the game has changed quite a bit since then and today Godell has a no sack rule in effect and QB's are throwing for 6,000 yards

See...my post was kinda designed to get one of you to walk face first into the issue; thank you for obliging.

You come from a position of what will keep Eli OUT of the HOF, assume that is the general attitude. That the people voting will be doing the same thing.

My point is that you are flat out wrong - his accomplishments to date are exactly what gets people into the HOF.
In my defense, I point out the history of HOF and specific players to make my case.

Where we seem to get stuck is this: Eli's second ballot selection to the HOF will not make him great, it will mark great accomplishments.

4thand1
05-25-2013, 12:53 PM
http://deadspin.com/5856867/eli-manning-beats-tom-brady-will-still-not-be-considered-elite-your-sunday-nfl-roundup http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/feed/2012-11/against-the-grain/story/eli-manning-new-york-giants-qb-nfl-week-16-baltimore-ravens http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094619/article/phil-simms-eli-manning-a-champion-but-hes-not-elite

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/54090/roethlisberger-faces-elite-challenge
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126457-big-ben-roethlisberger-not-an-elite-quarterbackyet (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/54090/roethlisberger-faces-elite-challenge)

fansince69
05-25-2013, 12:57 PM
No, it is not entirely a shot in the dark when you draft a QB at a very high pick. Sure, there are failures, but it's still a much higher probability of getting a legitimate franchise QB in the top pick than being lucky and getting a Brady in the deeper round. How often did a Brady come along and the chances that Brady was not a first round pick? That's about once in a blue moon. By the way, Mark Sanchez is not an overall pick. And he was successful for the first few years until they messed up with his psyche.I did not say he was an overall pick...I said Dave Carr was.......I agree your chances of getting a good Qb is greater in first round...than later on...but if you make the wrong pick....your franchise actually goes backward///please don't make me cite all those that fit that criteria

AllHailEli
05-25-2013, 12:59 PM
I think you're over-valuing those Super Bowls with regard to whether or not Eli will get into the HOF, which was, at one time, the point of this thread LOL

Super Bowls are great, and the ultimate goal of every NFL team in every NFL season. However, winning one or more of them guarantees NOTHING, and doesn't automatically elevate the winning QB to "great" status, nor does it make him irreplaceable.


2 Super Bowl MVPs should not be overvalued. Winning a Super Bowl is the ultimate goal every year, being the most valuable player for those runs should be valued high. How many have multiple Super Bowl MVPs?

Morehead State
05-25-2013, 01:00 PM
Maybe "any value" is not the right term, but in the end all we want is to win a championship. That's eventually the bottom line, not the stats, not the records. There's nothing that's a higher value than championship for a fan.
Its not all I want. Its wonderful when it happens. But I've enjoyed (most) every season we've had since 1967.