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View Full Version : Read this about Coughlin folks...think twice. Go TC.



BigBlueOnes
12-31-2011, 09:50 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stack

jomo
12-31-2011, 09:59 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stackGood article.

GameTime
12-31-2011, 09:59 AM
thanks...</P>


I never had to or will think twice about Tom Coughlin.</P>


A handful of players over the years have said he was too "strict". How about the players who praise him? Or how about the hundreds of players who played under him and have said nothing.</P>


Why is the negative always the truth???</P>


</P>

Medisleman
12-31-2011, 10:09 AM
TC is one of the best coaches the Giants have ever had. In my lifetime he is number 2 after Parcells.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 10:30 AM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.

GMENAGAIN
12-31-2011, 10:40 AM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.*

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.*

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired.* Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.*


Of course, the hiring of Girardi did not fix the Yankees "fatal flaws" . . . . $200M in FA acquistions were necessary to do that. So the Joe Torre comparison is not even remotely relevant since his successor did not win with the same team.

And it is also widely known that TC's Jacksonville teams near the end were the victims of salary cap hell and had very little talent . . . . . he was not fired because players stopped listening to him. He was fired because his players stopped having talent.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 10:45 AM
Of course, the hiring of Girardi did not fix the Yankees "fatal flaws" . . . . $200M in FA acquistions were necessary to do that. So the Joe Torre comparison is not even remotely relevant since his successor did not win with the same team.

Of course you neglect what is likely billions in spending to prop up the failed Joe Torre regime as well.

Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, A-Rod, Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Hideki Matsui, Carl Pavano, Jeff Weaver, Johnny Damon, any of these names ringing bells? All big name acquisitions brought in after the glory years from 1996-2001.

What did that get them?

A humiliating WS loss in 2003 to the Marlins
A historic collapse against the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS
Consecutive first round exits in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

Remove Joe, who was once great but no longer cutting it and unable to identify or fix the problem, and two years later they win another World Series.

Joe Torre was not able to identify why they collapsed against the Red Sox in 2004, much like Tom Coughlin was unable to identify the collapse against the Eagles in 2010. Joe Torre was not able to explain the flame outs in the 2003 WS or in the 2005, 2006, and 2007 ALDS. Tom Coughlin has not been able to explain the flame outs his tenure is known for, such as in 2009 the last ever game at Giants Stadium, or in the 2005 and 2008 playoffs.

And at least Joe Torre won multiple championships and didn't have regular season collapses (I think there was maybe one year where they went on a massive losing streak at the end and finished with less than 90 wins).



And it is also widely known that TC's Jacksonville teams near the end
were the victims of salary cap hell and had very little talent . . . . .
he was not fired because players stopped listening to him. He was
fired because his players stopped having talent.

That may be the politically correct answer given by history (and still partially true) but I made a point to listen to Jaguar fans about the end of Coughlin's regime when he came in here. They said the team stopped listening to him and they would come out flat and going through the motions. The truth is probably a little of both.

The team went downhill and got stuck at 6-10. If it weren't for Eli, we'd probably be 6-10 or worse.

yoeddy
12-31-2011, 10:53 AM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.*

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.*

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired.* Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.*


Took a 4-12 team and won a Superbowl 4 years later. I'd rather have that than making the NFC Championship every year but never winning the big one. Ask any Eagles fan about that...

Mod_C
12-31-2011, 11:04 AM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.


John Mara, like his Dad, look at things differently than you may. Stability is important as is loyalty. Coughlin, it was recently reported, is the only HC since the 50's to have not had a losing season. Check out some of the articles in the new threads of late and broaden your perspective. It helps to approach it with perspective instead of emotions.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 11:05 AM
Took a 4-12 team and won a Superbowl 4 years later. I'd rather have that than making the NFC Championship every year but never winning the big one. Ask any Eagles fan about that...

Partly agreed, but I think everybody would agree it's best to be playing your best football in November and December -- and that not winning a home playoff game is indicting. Generally those signs are agreed upon as bad.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 11:07 AM
John Mara, like his Dad, look at things differently than you may. Stability is important as is loyalty. Coughlin, it was recently reported, is the only HC since the 50's to have not had a losing season. Check out some of the articles in the new threads of late and broaden your perspective. It helps to approach it with perspective instead of emotions.


Actually, what you are suggesting (loyalty) is based on emotion, not logic or reason.

I am basing my complaint on his performance and statistics, as measured by cold hard facts.

30-42 Nov/Dec record
Never won a home playoff game
Never won a playoff game outside of 2007
Collapses in 7 out of 8 seasons.

Divorce yourself from loyalty and emotion and just look at the numbers. Those numbers are not good enough.

Stability is fine and the Maras obviously value it. But Coughlin's had 8 seasons and it's pretty clear what his problems are, and worse that he is unable to fix it.

Missing the playoffs for 3 years in a row could be considered "stable". Always going .500 or worse in Nov/Dec could be considered "stable". Showing up small in big games on a regular basis could be considered "stable". They should also be considered "mediocre".

RoanokeFan
12-31-2011, 11:13 AM
John Mara, like his Dad, look at things differently than you may. Stability is important as is loyalty. Coughlin, it was recently reported, is the only HC since the 50's to have not had a losing season. Check out some of the articles in the new threads of late and broaden your perspective. It helps to approach it with perspective instead of emotions.


Actually, what you are suggesting (loyalty) is based on emotion, not logic or reason.

I am basing my complaint on his performance and statistics, as measured by cold hard facts.

30-42 Nov/Dec record
Never won a home playoff game
Never won a playoff game outside of 2007
Collapses in 7 out of 8 seasons.

Divorce yourself from loyalty and emotion and just look at the numbers. Those numbers are not good enough.

Stability is fine and the Maras obviously value it. But Coughlin's had 8 seasons and it's pretty clear what his problems are, and worse that he is unable to fix it.

Missing the playoffs for 3 years in a row could be considered "stable". Always going .500 or worse in Nov/Dec could be considered "stable". Showing up small in big games on a regular basis could be considered "stable". They should also be considered "mediocre".


We'll see after the season is over, but expecting TC to be fired may prove to be just one more disappointment in the team for you.

GameTime
12-31-2011, 11:15 AM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.
</P>


come on Dude....relax it for a day and give TC the props he deserves. Has his tenure been without problems?....of course not. look we all know the what the Giants have and have not done and there is no need to list it either.But the Giants won one of the best SBs in history!! Maybe you'd like to be a fan of teams that have NEVER won?? Not ranking onyou but give it a rest for day or so....</P>


</P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 11:29 AM
We'll see after the season is over, but expecting TC to be fired may prove to be just one more disappointment in the team for you.


As it has been since the titanic collapse of 2008.

Hasn't he had enough "one more year"s? I think the fact the Maras have been giving him small contracts speaks volumes given the "stability" argument.

http://garciamedialife.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/charlie_brown_lucy_football.jpg

BParcells777
12-31-2011, 11:31 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stack

Coughlin is the right coach if you have a team of miserable un-disciplined crybabies
or an expansion team

plus hes 15 yrs older now (66)

Its time to move on to Bill Cowher........a younger disciplinarian, better at picking assts, more upbeat.

Tom is already the longest running HC in Giants recent history......and the oldest ever.

if we get in and are one and done and embarrassed he has to go

Of, course if he manages to get to LCS he stays.......I hope he does, wins it, and wins the silver chalice

I can put up with his lack of personality for another year or two if that happens..........at any rate if we can get Spags back at DC and let someone else outbid us I will be furious. Perry can be our Special Assistant to the Assistant HC....."Pay the MAN hiiisssss MONEY!" as famously quoted from John Malkovich in Rounders

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 11:33 AM
come on Dude....relax it for a day and give TC the props he deserves. Has his tenure been without problems?....of course not. look we all know the what the Giants have and have not done and there is no need to list it either.But the Giants won one of the best SBs in history!! Maybe you'd like to be a fan of teams that have NEVER won?? Not ranking onyou but give it a rest for day or so....</p>


I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach. Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is. He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.

Sometimes the best coach in the world isn't getting it done anymore -- see Joe Torre.

Joe Torre got to skate by on past reputation for 5 years, this will be 4 for Tom Coughlin.

Put in context, it's clear 2007 was a fluke. We keep giving him "one more year" hoping for the magic to come back but it just won't.

I'm off TC's back if he can break the cycle and get out of the first round of the playoffs (which would also mean a home playoff win).

Of course, if this team does the unthinkable and loses this week at home to give the Cowboys the NFC-East, would it really surprise anybody in the long line of Coughlin duds? It would fit in just nicely with the 2010 Eagles collapse (which lost the NFC-East title as well) and the 2009 last game ever at Giants Stadium with a playoff spot on the line, 41-9 Panthers.

GameTime
12-31-2011, 11:56 AM
come on Dude....relax it for a day and give TC the props he deserves. Has his tenure been without problems?....of course not. look we all know the what the Giants have and have not done and there is no need to list it either.But the Giants won one of the best SBs in history!! Maybe you'd like to be a fan of teams that have NEVER won?? Not ranking onyou but give it a rest for day or so....</P>




I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach. Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is. He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.

Sometimes the best coach in the world isn't getting it done anymore -- see Joe Torre.

Joe Torre got to skate by on past reputation for 5 years, this will be 4 for Tom Coughlin.

Put in context, it's clear 2007 was a fluke. We keep giving him "one more year" hoping for the magic to come back but it just won't.

I'm off TC's back if he can break the cycle and get out of the first round of the playoffs (which would also mean a home playoff win).

Of course, if this team does the unthinkable and loses this week at home to give the Cowboys the NFC-East, would it really surprise anybody in the long line of Coughlin duds? It would fit in just nicely with the 2010 Eagles collapse (which lost the NFC-East title as well) and the 2009 last game ever at Giants Stadium with a playoff spot on the line, 41-9 Panthers.
</P>


coaches who dont have problems with their teams dont exsist. If you want a dynasty type coach then you are reachiing for the "exception" and not the rule. TC is not much different then most successful coaches. </P>


2007 was a fluke??....You have to be kidding me....SB wins are not flukes. Three road wins are not flukes. Getting into the playoffs is not a fluke. You say its a fluke because we havent been back....that is ridiculous. Do you know how many coaches would love ONE SUPER BOWL WIN in their entire career.</P>


I hear your points and they have merit but I am not going to sit here and bash a coach who is but a part of the problems with this team.</P>


If you want to thats cool but I am not like that...</P>

RoanokeFan
12-31-2011, 11:56 AM
We'll see after the season is over, but expecting TC to be fired may prove to be just one more disappointment in the team for you.


As it has been since the titanic collapse of 2008.

Hasn't he had enough "one more year"s? I think the fact the Maras have been giving him small contracts speaks volumes given the "stability" argument.

http://garciamedialife.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/charlie_brown_lucy_football.jpg


The extensions are merely to prevent a "lame duck" appearance. TC's age makes it prudent to extend rather than craft a long term deal.

Those who continually say TC is the problem, hasn't solved the problem, etc. never have a fix other than "get rid of Coughlin." Most of the time they branch off into not having the right players which is not Coughlin's job. Or they offer "injuries are no excuse." Injuries aren't an "excuse", they are a factor like the CAP is a factor.

It would be great to win enough games to get into the playoffs every year. It's not easy to do do that and there are reasons it doesn't happen. The major reason is thte CAP and free agency ans that's precisely why there is a CAP and FA, so teams can get a chance at the brass ring on a level playing field.

Head coaches who are not general managers play the hand they are dealt. They are paid to prepare their teams to play the games. By all accounts, from people who know, TC is is one of the best in the business at preparing his teams and has always been.

The professionals will take stock after the season ends and make whatever determinations they feel will best fit their goal and philosophy.

We put a great deal of time and effort into "after the fact" information like play calling. I'm of the opinion that plays fail because of execution or a lack thereof on both sides of the ball. But we all know ELi has at least two plays to choose from and also calls his own plays based on what he sees at the LOS. Some of us don't seem to consider it's his "fault" when a play he changed to doesn't work. I recall a recent interview of Gilbride about a play inside the red zone being a pass play and that wasnt' the play Gilbride called, but was a call Eli audibled to. IT HAPPENS. It's not a perfect world.

TC probably will get to determine when it's time for him to exit in consultation with Jerry Reese and John Mara. That's not my take on it, but it is what Gil Brandt from SIRIUS opined the other day. I don't knwo if he has any inside information but I am pretty sure he's not just blowing smoke.

RoanokeFan
12-31-2011, 12:03 PM
come on Dude....relax it for a day and give TC the props he deserves. Has his tenure been without problems?....of course not. look we all know the what the Giants have and have not done and there is no need to list it either.But the Giants won one of the best SBs in history!! Maybe you'd like to be a fan of teams that have NEVER won?? Not ranking onyou but give it a rest for day or so....</p>


I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach. <font color="#000000"><u>Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is. He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.</u></font>

<font color="#0000FF">I'm not picking on you as a lot of posters feel the same way. But what is "fatally" flawed? As far as "clueless" you tell us what the problem is. You have no more idea what goes on with this team (not do I) than 15 - 30 second sound bites in press interviews. We don't see him at practice, in meetings, or have a clue as to what he's saying to who through his head piece when he's on the sidelines. All we see are the results and *****.</font>

Sometimes the best coach in the world isn't getting it done anymore -- see Joe Torre.

Joe Torre got to skate by on past reputation for 5 years, this will be 4 for Tom Coughlin.

Put in context, it's clear 2007 was a fluke. We keep giving him "one more year" hoping for the magic to come back but it just won't.

I'm off TC's back if he can break the cycle and get out of the first round of the playoffs (which would also mean a home playoff win).

Of course, if this team does the unthinkable and loses this week at home to give the Cowboys the NFC-East, would it really surprise anybody in the long line of Coughlin duds? It would fit in just nicely with the 2010 Eagles collapse (which lost the NFC-East title as well) and the 2009 last game ever at Giants Stadium with a playoff spot on the line, 41-9 Panthers.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 12:06 PM
coaches who dont have problems with their teams dont exsist. If you want a dynasty type coach then you are reachiing for the "exception" and not the rule. TC is not much different then most successful coaches.</p>


</p>There's a difference between demanding perfection, and asking someone to learn from and overcome his mistakes.

Bad 2nd halfs? Keep happening.
Collapses? Keep happening.
No-shows in big games? Keep happening.

We keep failing at the same points in the same ways. That shows a lack of learning and adaptation.






2007 was a fluke??....You have to be kidding me....SB wins are not flukes. Three road wins are not flukes. Getting into the playoffs is not a fluke. You say its a fluke because we havent been back....that is ridiculous. Do you know how many coaches would love ONE SUPER BOWL WIN in their entire career.</p>

Slow down -- I said put it in context with the rest of his tenure.</p>

Outside of that year, no playoff wins AT ALL. That's the fluke.
</p>



I hear your points and they have merit but I am not going to sit here and bash a coach who is but a part of the problems with this team.</p>


If you want to thats cool but I am not like that...</p>

I understand how you feel and I'm fine with that... But I had an epiphany during last year's Eagles meltdown, where TC allowed premature celebration on the sidelines, something Parcells never would have tolerated. He's not the entire problem, but he's a damned big piece of it and we need to move on to go any farther.

GameTime
12-31-2011, 12:15 PM
coaches who dont have problems with their teams dont exsist. If you want a dynasty type coach then you are reachiing for the "exception" and not the rule. TC is not much different then most successful coaches.</P>



</P>There's a difference between demanding perfection, and asking someone to learn from and overcome his mistakes.

Bad 2nd halfs? Keep happening.
Collapses? Keep happening.
No-shows in big games? Keep happening.

We keep failing at the same points in the same ways. That shows a lack of learning and adaptation.






2007 was a fluke??....You have to be kidding me....SB wins are not flukes. Three road wins are not flukes. Getting into the playoffs is not a fluke. You say its a fluke because we havent been back....that is ridiculous. Do you know how many coaches would love ONE SUPER BOWL WIN in their entire career.</P>


Slow down -- I said put it in context with the rest of his tenure.</P>


Outside of that year, no playoff wins AT ALL. That's the fluke.
</P>



I hear your points and they have merit but I am not going to sit here and bash a coach who is but a part of the problems with this team.</P>


If you want to thats cool but I am not like that...</P>


I am up for a change in coaching based on the collapses and all that other stuff but I just dont like ripping the guy when all that actually has been accomplished. He is one of the better Giants coaches in their history and no amount of bashing will take that away from him. </P>


Go through NFL flims and see other teams that may have been up by 21 points with 8 minutes to go...</P>


you will see celebration......</P>


That was the biggest meltdown I have ever witnessed and place full blame on the coaching staff, players, and everyone and anyone else involved with that team that day. But the pre mature celebration didnt cause the meltdown. The lack of control of the team from all aspects caused it. TC was a big part of that as was the DC, OC and all the players on the field. You dont have a gametime meltdown of that proportion without the fault of all phases.</P>




</P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 12:19 PM
I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach. <font color="#000000"><u>Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is. He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.</u></font>

<font color="#0000FF">I'm not picking on you as a lot of posters feel the same way. But what is "fatally" flawed? As far as "clueless" you tell us what the problem is. You have no more idea what goes on with this team (not do I) than 15 - 30 second sound bites in press interviews. We don't see him at practice, in meetings, or have a clue as to what he's saying to who through his head piece when he's on the sidelines. All we see are the results and *****.</font>

By "fatally flawed" I mean he is not learning from his mistakes and adapting. You know the definition of insanity, right, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

As an outside observer I cannot tell what the actual problem is, although I have some theories. All I see is a black box that takes input and produces output, with an occasional peek "behind the curtains" with revealing comments from beat reporters and people connected to the organization. If that black box fails the same way in a repeated fashion over a long enough period of time, obviously something is wrong with it.

I have a background in engineering, and essentially we have to reverse-engineer this black box and speculate on what it does internally based on the input and output.

We see the late season collapses, repeatedly. At this point it's a scientific certitude.
We see the poor 2nd half records, repeatedly. Only better than .500 once (2005).
We see the no-shows in big games, repeatedly. And we get the same stunned platitudes afterwards.

Now, granted, Tom and the Giants are not the type to air dirty laundry so what we get in both wins and losses should be considered a screen (think "Plato's Cave" in reverse).

But Tom, the organization, the players, they ARE there every day and know every nook and cranny of the machine. They are the engineers who design and maintain the black box.

The machine breaks in the same way, repeatedly. And we're now on version 8.0 of the Tom Coughlin coaching black box and each new revision keeps breaking in the same way its predecessor did, which means either (a) they aren't changing anything, or (b) they don't know what the problems is and are making random changes hoping to solve the problem by accident. Version 8.0 has many of the same problems that Version 1.0 had. Time to find a new parts supplier, see what I'm saying?

river555
12-31-2011, 12:20 PM
Coughlin has been a great coach but the last 3 years have not been good. If we dont win sunday that will be 3 straight years without making the playoffs. Not good considering we are not a rebuilding team and all 3 years we were expected to be playoff/super bowl contenders. We've had a good enough roster with a lot of very good players in their prime but have not won as many games as we should have.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 12:21 PM
Go through NFL flims and see other teams that may have been up by 21 points with 8 minutes to go...</p>


you will see celebration......</p>

And with most good coaches you would see it squashed.
</p>

You need to go back and watch some tapes of Parcells. He would have benched anyone doing that. Even up by 20 in a Super Bowl. Because it signals overconfidence and lack of respect for the opponent. Simms got chewed out with his last TD in XXI. It's not over until the clock reads 0:00.
</p>

NYfanatic
12-31-2011, 12:22 PM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.

Its all true. The sooner we move on maybe then we can have a coach who might be able to lead us back to the glory land.

Joe Morrison
12-31-2011, 12:42 PM
Like the old saying goes, the grass is always greener on the other side until you get there, then it turns out to be crap grass.</P>


TC will get the job done tomorrow eve to start off the New Year on the right foot.</P>


Not looking forward to starting all over again and ending up the the Cowboys making all kinds of moves and never reaching the promised land.</P>


Mara said he likes stability, smart man.</P>

GameTime
12-31-2011, 12:44 PM
Go through NFL flims and see other teams that may have been up by 21 points with 8 minutes to go...</P>


you will see celebration......</P>


And with most good coaches you would see it squashed.
</P>


You need to go back and watch some tapes of Parcells. He would have benched anyone doing that. Even up by 20 in a Super Bowl. Because it signals overconfidence and lack of respect for the opponent. Simms got chewed out with his last TD in XXI. It's not over until the clock reads 0:00.
</P>


</P>


yeah yeah....I get ya....</P>


but like I said I will not trash TC. I will welcome change but I will not trash him. Itdoesnt mean I am blind to the problemsbecause I am certainly aware of the issues.The Giants can easily get a coach which makes you wish for TC. You never know what you are going to get and the grass is not always greener. </P>


BTW....Parcells had his share of screw ups too over his coaching career. I am not taking anything away from hm at all.....just sayin'</P>

GameTime
12-31-2011, 12:45 PM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.

Its all true. The sooner we move on<FONT color=#000080 size=5> maybe</FONT> then we can have a coach who might be able to lead us back to the glory land.
</P>


thats a big freakin "MAYBE"...</P>


could also have years of crap too.....</P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 12:50 PM
^ BP got beat, yeah -- but you could always count on his teams to fight. They played their best football in Nov/Dec. And the only no-show I can think of is the game against the 85 Bears (which propelled them to their finest season ever the following year).

I can take getting beat. It's the no-shows that gut me.

GOBIGBLUE52
12-31-2011, 12:51 PM
Coughlin's second half record can't be disputed, but it's SO EASY to look at the W-L record and simply put it all on him. 2004 I don't even care about since that was a rebuilding year and a transition year, but replacing Kurt Warner with Eli was a catalyst for it since his first games were so rough (like that Baltimore game where he had a 0.0 passer rating). A change that in the end, ended up working out pretty good for us, nevertheless.

2005? Started 6-2, went 11-5. No collapse there. That was with a total lack of a secondary, and a loss in Seattle because Jay Feely can't make a field goal (otherwise we're 12-4 with HFA). By the way, the giants were 4-1 in the month of december that year, losing only to a pretty good playoff Washington team. And then Eli played awful in the playoffs and Tiki Barber showed his first signs of being an ***.

2006? I have no defense here. But at the same time, a team that shouldn't have made the playoffs came a field goal away from beating a very good Eagles team. God forbid we win that game and get blown out in the second round, everyone would've been singing praises after that season.

2007 needs no breakdown, but when this team is a playoff contender every year that's BS to call it a fluke. It's a fluke if the Giants were 6-10 the year before and then were 8-8 the year after and worse the year after that.

In 2008 we would have repeated if Plaxico behaved himself. We were 11-1 before that. Remember: we beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh and Arizona in Arizona. Both of the super bowl teams.

2009 I don't view as a collapse at all regardless of the first half and second half records. We started 5-0. Why? Because look at the teams we played. An awful Redskins team. Dallas was good that year, but I specifically remember that was a total steal game we were outplayed in. Then after that? Tampa finished 3-13, Kansas City was 4-12, Oakland was 5-11. OF COURSE WE START 5-0! Then we lost 4 straight to the super bowl champions and 3 other teams that finished with at least 10 wins on the year. We had one of the worst defenses I've ever seen that year.

And wait a second, you want to replace Tom with BILL COWHER?! I'm sorry, what the HELL did Bill Cowher do with the Steelers? Numerous playoff and super bowl losses for 14 years until 2005 when he won. How is THAT any better than what Coughlin has done here? There is not a snowball's chance in hell Bill Cowher will be the next head coach of the Giants. And when TC goes, I want somebody young and unproven.

One other thing: I think this year has been one of TC's best here. After the offseason we had with losing guys to free agency (Boss, Smith) and injury, plus the Eagles signing everybody they did, everyone had the Giants pegged at 6-10 and well out of the playoffs. We're in control of our own destiny in the final week and could get a home playoff game. But of course if we make the playoffs, TC will get NO credit at all right?

Gianthunter
12-31-2011, 12:52 PM
Hmmmmmm I saw plenty of player celebrations in Parcells time. That precept is fatally flawed

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Coughlin's second half record can't be disputed, but it's SO EASY to look at the W-L record and simply put it all on him.


It's 7 out of 8 years and he's the only piece that hasn't changed.

Different GM (Ernie Accorsie and Jerry Reese)
Different owners (Wellington &amp; Bob, John &amp; Steve)
4 different Defensive Coordinators (Lewis, Spags, Sheridan, Fewell)
2 different Offensive Coordinators (Huffnagel &amp; Gilbride)
Young, struggling rookie Eli vs saavy MVP-quality veteran Eli
Generations of player turnover at most positions (how many are left from 2004? Diehl, Osi, Snee &amp; Eli?)

There's an excuse for every year. Step back and look at the collective.


Hmmmmmm I saw plenty of player celebrations in Parcells time. That precept is fatally flawed

Come up with an example, please, because I remember Parcells telling guys to act like they've been in the end zone before, and I remember the example from SB XXI where he wouldn't let the team celebrate late in the game. I remember him staring holes in players. And just to be clear I'm not talking about high fives after a big play or a small celebration after a TD, I'm talking about the whole sideline yukking it up like the game is over.

If you can find an example where the team is jumping up and down on the sidelines in the 3rd quarter and Parcells lets it continue I will eat my hat.

GOBIGBLUE52
12-31-2011, 01:00 PM
Coughlin's second half record can't be disputed, but it's SO EASY to look at the W-L record and simply put it all on him.


It's 7 out of 8 years and he's the only piece that hasn't changed.

Different GM (Ernie Accorsie and Jerry Reese)
Different owners (Wellington &amp; Bob, John &amp; Steve)
4 different Defensive Coordinators (Lewis, Spags, Sheridan, Fewell)
2 different Offensive Coordinators (Huffnagel &amp; Gilbride)
Young, struggling rookie Eli vs saavy MVP-quality veteran Eli
Generations of player turnover at most positions (how many are left from 2004? Diehl, Osi, Snee &amp; Eli?)

There's an excuse for every year. Step back and look at the collective.


So because he's the common denominator it's his fault? That's a load of ****. The NFL doesn't work that way. There are different circumstances every year.

Hell the organization has been owned by the Maras and Tischs this whole time, let's blame them!

You know what else? Eli's first half statistics year in year out are remarkably better than his second half statistics, so it must be all his fault.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 01:05 PM
So because he's the common denominator it's his fault? That's a load of ****. The NFL doesn't work that way. There are different circumstances every year.


The result is the same and all the other pieces have changed. Seems like pretty sound logic.

Even if you don't buy that, let's take a different tact. Please explain the no-shows in big games. Isn't it the coach's job to motivate the players and keep them pointed in the right direction?

2005 at home vs Panthers in 1st round of playoffs -- 23-0
2008 at home vs Eagles in 1st round of playoffs -- 23-11
2009 at home vs Panthers in last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line (how do you possibly get any more motivation than that???) -- 41-9
2010 at home vs Eagles for NFC East -- worst meltdown in franchise history
2010 at Green Bay for a playoff spot -- no show, 45-17

Well, Tom Coughlin isn't missing tackles or dropping passes, right? There are probably other excuses for each one of those individual eggs.

When IS it his responsibility?

A: when the failure is repeated over and over

GameTime
12-31-2011, 01:16 PM
^ BP got beat, yeah -- but you could always count on his teams to fight. They played their best football in Nov/Dec. And the only no-show I can think of is the game against the 85 Bears (which propelled them to their finest season ever the following year).

I can take getting beat. It's the no-shows that gut me.
</P>


I feel your pain Bro.....</P>


but why bother sitting there and collecting all the negative stuff about Coughlon and his tenure on the eve of the Giants hopefully getting back to the playoffs. You will have plent of time to bash him after tomorrow....win or loses....</P>


Happy New Year and Go Big Blue...</P>


Ultimately you want a win tomorrow as well as I.....</P>

bansaw
12-31-2011, 01:27 PM
I loved TC since the first clip I saw of him at the first training camp. he was yelling at the OLine
CAN SOMEONE MAKE A GODDAMNED BLOCK? WHAT ARE THESE GUYS? THE ****ING 85 BEARS?!?

he's been the right guy here, if he goes I'll always have respect for what he did for us. He reinstilled Giants Pride after Fassel's leisure camp, play for the name on your back team

GET THE GUYS TO KICK SOME *** SUNDAY TC

GO GIANTS !!!

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 01:33 PM
I feel your pain Bro.....</p>


but why bother sitting there and collecting all the negative stuff about Coughlon and his tenure on the eve of the Giants hopefully getting back to the playoffs. You will have plent of time to bash him after tomorrow....win or loses....</p>


Happy New Year and Go Big Blue...</p>


Ultimately you want a win tomorrow as well as I.....</p>

I'm rooting for a win (and the first ever home playoff win the week after).

I really am.

But I'm prepared for history to repeat itself.

I think people are a little too up from last week like a roller coaster and not looking at the big picture, that's my reminder.

But for now, go Giants!

Gianthunter
12-31-2011, 01:33 PM
Come up with an example, please, because I remember Parcells telling guys to act like they've been in the end zone before, and I remember the example from SB XXI where he wouldn't let the team celebrate late in the game. I remember him staring holes in players. And just to be clear I'm not talking about high fives after a big play or a small celebration after a TD, I'm talking about the whole sideline yukking it up like the game is over.

If you can find an example where the team is jumping up and down on the sidelines in the 3rd quarter and Parcells lets it continue I will eat my hat.

Please. There clearshots of fullsideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

GameTime
12-31-2011, 01:36 PM
I feel your pain Bro.....</P>


but why bother sitting there and collecting all the negative stuff about Coughlon and his tenure on the eve of the Giants hopefully getting back to the playoffs. You will have plent of time to bash him after tomorrow....win or loses....</P>


Happy New Year and Go Big Blue...</P>


Ultimately you want a win tomorrow as well as I.....</P>




I'm rooting for a win (and the first ever home playoff win the week after).

I really am.

But I'm prepared for history to repeat itself.

I think people are a little too up from last week like a roller coaster and not looking at the big picture, that's my reminder.

But for now, go Giants!
</P>


I am not one of the ones that is "too up".....</P>


I know what they are capable of on the good and bad side. </P>


Hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.....</P>


</P>

GOBIGBLUE52
12-31-2011, 01:44 PM
So because he's the common denominator it's his fault? That's a load of ****. The NFL doesn't work that way. There are different circumstances every year.


The result is the same and all the other pieces have changed. Seems like pretty sound logic.

Even if you don't buy that, let's take a different tact. Please explain the no-shows in big games. Isn't it the coach's job to motivate the players and keep them pointed in the right direction?

2005 at home vs Panthers in 1st round of playoffs -- 23-0
2008 at home vs Eagles in 1st round of playoffs -- 23-11
2009 at home vs Panthers in last ever game at Giants Stadium with playoffs on the line (how do you possibly get any more motivation than that???) -- 41-9
2010 at home vs Eagles for NFC East -- worst meltdown in franchise history
2010 at Green Bay for a playoff spot -- no show, 45-17

Well, Tom Coughlin isn't missing tackles or dropping passes, right? There are probably other excuses for each one of those individual eggs.

When IS it his responsibility?

A: when the failure is repeated over and over


NEWSFLASH: EVERY team, and I mean EVERY TEAM, has horrible losses. That's not exclusive to the Giants. It's not even exclusive to Coughlin as a Giants coach. Does any Giant fan alive during Parcells remember Sean Landeta missing the ball in the playoffs against the Bears in 1985 (granted, that was the best team ever, but 21-0 constitues a "no show"). How about Al Toon knocking the Giants out of the playoffs in 1988? How about Flipper Anderson running through the endzone and into the tunnel after knocking what LT and others said was the "best team I ever played on" out of the playoffs in 1989? How about the disaster that was Parcells' first year, when every Giant fan within 100 miles of the stadium wanted him out? Or in the Ray Handley/Dan Reeves era where there were NO positives, other than Reeves' first year. Or the Jim Fassel era with two awful playoff losses, an awful super bowl loss, a terrible performance against an expansion team, etc.

On the flip side, even looking in the division, teams have had "no shows." Us against the Redskins in 05, first game after Mara died, 36-0 (no way we don't win that game, but that was a blowout). Us vs. Minnesota 41-0 to go to the super bowl. Us vs. Redskins 2009 where they ran that swinging gate play before halftime. Dallas vs. Philadelphia in 2008, 44-6. Or how about the time we scored 23 unanswered points on the Eagles to win in Philadelphia in overtime in 2006? How many games over the years have we broken the hearts of and stolen from other teams? How about that Raiders game 2 years ago where we were winning something like 28-0 at halfime? Or the Seattle game in 2008 where without Burress we still won by over 30 points?

And then outside of the division, you have all of the times the Colts have had first round byes/high playoff appearances and lose in the first round. Jets getting knocked out of the playoffs in 2008 by Miami. Chicago/Arizona "they are who we thought they were!"

The point I'm trying to make is that having a bad loss or a "no show" is not something that's exclusive to Tom Coughlin or the Giants. It happens everywhere. And when you compare what Coughlin has done here compared to his predecessors here, and compare what Coughlin has done here compared to every other coach in this league sans 2-3, you may realize that the last 7 years here have been pretty damn good.

giantyankee1976
12-31-2011, 01:48 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stackGood article.

seconded.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 01:52 PM
Please. There clearshots of fullsideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

You'll have to do better than WHEN THE GAME IS OVER. I once again challenge you to show it with time still on the clock.

I have all the games recorded so a simple time index will be sufficient.

As for my argument, go to 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=aoVP6Q3MJoQ#t=25 0s

njersey
12-31-2011, 02:02 PM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.*

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.*

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired.* Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.*



Don't go away mad, just go away. Please.

Gianthunter
12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Please. There clearshots of fullsideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

You'll have to do better than WHEN THE GAME IS OVER. I once again challenge you to show it with time still on the clock.

I have all the games recorded so a simple time index will be sufficient.

As for my argument, go to 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=aoVP6Q3MJoQ#t=25 0s
A poor country boy here. No time stamp from me. But a quickie look up showed the score being 33-10 Aint technological great 4:57</P>

GMENAGAIN
12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Please. There clear*shots of full*sideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

You'll have to do better than WHEN THE GAME IS OVER.* I once again challenge you to show it with time still on the clock.

I have all the games recorded so a simple time index will be sufficient.

As for my argument, go to 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aoVP6Q3MJoQ#t=250s


Why don't you tell everyone about your belief that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season???? lol

poppa smurph
12-31-2011, 02:12 PM
All things must come to an end and when TC's tenure is over, I'll remember what most will say was the biggest Superbowl upset victory of all time.</P>


What's too bad is that alot of folks will expect that type of performance year in and year out, and remember the collapses. The dark stuff.</P>


If you would've said tome 8 years ago, you can have one of the best Superbowl victories amid some heart-wrenching seasons, I'd be satisfied. In those 8 years, there's only 8 teams that are happy with the results. We happen to be fans of one of those teams, that's a good thing, non?</P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 02:31 PM
Why don't you tell everyone about your belief that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season???? lol

I make no secret of it. Blowing an 11-1 season and home field advantage should have had a price to pay.

And no trips to the playoffs since then, and in fact have blown THREE chances to return to the playoffs in tragic fashion (2009 lose last ever game at Giants Stadium 41-9; 2010 Eagles with NFC-East on the line, biggest collapse in franchise history; 2010 against Green Bay with playoffs still up for grabs, lose 45-17). Wow, how insane, right? It just proves me more and more right that the 2008 collapse was the nexus of failure. This franchise has wasted 3 years hoping for the magic to return.

JPP
12-31-2011, 02:33 PM
Of course, the hiring of Girardi did not fix the Yankees "fatal flaws" . . . . $200M in FA acquistions were necessary to do that. So the Joe Torre comparison is not even remotely relevant since his successor did not win with the same team.

Of course you neglect what is likely billions in spending to prop up the failed Joe Torre regime as well.

Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, A-Rod, Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Hideki Matsui, Carl Pavano, Jeff Weaver, Johnny Damon, any of these names ringing bells?* All big name acquisitions brought in after the glory years from 1996-2001.

What did that get them?

A humiliating WS loss in 2003 to the Marlins
A historic collapse against the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS
Consecutive first round exits in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

Remove Joe, who was once great but no longer cutting it and unable to identify or fix the problem, and two years later they win another World Series.*

Joe Torre was not able to identify why they collapsed against the Red Sox in 2004, much like Tom Coughlin was unable to identify the collapse against the Eagles in 2010.* Joe Torre was not able to explain the flame outs in the 2003 WS or in the 2005, 2006, and 2007 ALDS.* Tom Coughlin has not been able to explain the flame outs his tenure is known for, such as in 2009 the last ever game at Giants Stadium, or in the 2005 and 2008 playoffs.*

And at least Joe Torre won multiple championships and didn't have regular season collapses (I think there was maybe one year where they went on a massive losing streak at the end and finished with less than 90 wins).



And it is also widely known that TC's Jacksonville teams near the end
were the victims of salary cap hell and had very little talent . . . . .
he was not fired because players stopped listening to him. He was
fired because his players stopped having talent.

That may be the politically correct answer given by history (and still partially true) but I made a point to listen to Jaguar fans about the end of Coughlin's regime when he came in here.* They said the team stopped listening to him and they would come out flat and going through the motions.* The truth is probably a little of both.

The team went downhill and got stuck at 6-10.* If it weren't for Eli, we'd probably be 6-10 or worse.


By that logic you should just take his opinion and assume it is right because apparently that is what you did with the Jaguars fan after eight years of Coughlin and you yourself just stated we are hitting the same landmark. So shouldn't our opinions on Coughlin be more viable, we have had the most recent stint with him, especially when you add in to the fact that during his tenure here he was known for getting more involved with his players than in Jacksonville and it even netted him a Super Bowl. So using some Jaguar fan base argument from 8 years ago isn't going to cut it. Do you know why he isn't getting through to the players, or hell even if that is the actual problem? No you don't because your not in the locker room. the basis of the facts are sure we have talented players but we do have some very shallow depth at certain positions(oline, linebackers, etc.) and maybe we just aren't as good of a team as everyone thought let alone the fact that we have a ridiculous amount of injuries this year.

Basically I'm just trying to point out that maybe the problem is the players and not coaching. Hell if we change coaches I agree our team might improve next year from the shakeup but I doubt they would be long term results and they would probably dip again the following season unless we find and awesome coach to take the job and take care of our salary cap woes.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Please. There clearshots of fullsideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

You'll have to do better than WHEN THE GAME IS OVER. I once again challenge you to show it with time still on the clock.

I have all the games recorded so a simple time index will be sufficient.

As for my argument, go to 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=aoVP6Q3MJoQ#t=25 0s
A poor country boy here. No time stamp from me. But a quickie look up showed the score being 33-10 Aint technological great 4:57</p>

Game's over at 4:57. At that point they are kneeling down in victory formation and dumping Gatorade with the score 39-20.

SweetZombieJesus
12-31-2011, 02:37 PM
Do you know why he isn't getting through to the players, or hell even if that is the actual problem? No you don't because your not in the locker room. the basis of the facts are sure we have talented players but we do have some very shallow depth at certain positions(oline, linebackers, etc.) and maybe we just aren't as good of a team as everyone thought let alone the fact that we have a ridiculous amount of injuries this year.

Basically I'm just trying to point out that maybe the problem is the players and not coaching. Hell if we change coaches I agree our team might improve next year from the shakeup but I doubt they would be long term results and they would probably dip again the following season unless we find and awesome coach to take the job and take care of our salary cap woes.

We've had several generations of player turnover in most positions but the results are the same. Only four players are left from 2004.

I'm not suggesting the players are blameless, but we have an 8 year track record to work with. Sometimes it's the combination that no longer works (see Pat Riley on why he left the Knicks).

BigBlueOnes
12-31-2011, 02:50 PM
30-42 in Nov/Dec
Never won a home playoff game
Collapses in 7 out of 8 years.
Responsible for some of the franchise's most humiliating losses.

That might cut it in Jacksonville, not in New York.

He's good but can't fix these fatal flaws.

I make the Joe Torre comparison -- one of the best in franchise history but if he can't fix these fatal flaws then it's time to part ways.

The article also doesn't mention why he got FIRED in Jacksonville, and it's for the same reasons you hear here -- the players stop responding, they would come out flat and uninspired. Coincidentally, he lasted 8 seasons in Jacksonville, and this is his 8th season in NY.


Like a broken freakin' record....

BigBlueOnes
12-31-2011, 02:58 PM
Coughlin's second half record can't be disputed, but it's SO EASY to look at the W-L record and simply put it all on him. 2004 I don't even care about since that was a rebuilding year and a transition year, but replacing Kurt Warner with Eli was a catalyst for it since his first games were so rough (like that Baltimore game where he had a 0.0 passer rating). A change that in the end, ended up working out pretty good for us, nevertheless.

2005? Started 6-2, went 11-5. No collapse there. That was with a total lack of a secondary, and a loss in Seattle because Jay Feely can't make a field goal (otherwise we're 12-4 with HFA). By the way, the giants were 4-1 in the month of december that year, losing only to a pretty good playoff Washington team. And then Eli played awful in the playoffs and Tiki Barber showed his first signs of being an ***.

2006? I have no defense here. But at the same time, a team that shouldn't have made the playoffs came a field goal away from beating a very good Eagles team. God forbid we win that game and get blown out in the second round, everyone would've been singing praises after that season.

2007 needs no breakdown, but when this team is a playoff contender every year that's BS to call it a fluke. It's a fluke if the Giants were 6-10 the year before and then were 8-8 the year after and worse the year after that.

In 2008 we would have repeated if Plaxico behaved himself. We were 11-1 before that. Remember: we beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh and Arizona in Arizona. Both of the super bowl teams.

2009 I don't view as a collapse at all regardless of the first half and second half records. We started 5-0. Why? Because look at the teams we played. An awful Redskins team. Dallas was good that year, but I specifically remember that was a total steal game we were outplayed in. Then after that? Tampa finished 3-13, Kansas City was 4-12, Oakland was 5-11. OF COURSE WE START 5-0! Then we lost 4 straight to the super bowl champions and 3 other teams that finished with at least 10 wins on the year. We had one of the worst defenses I've ever seen that year.

And wait a second, you want to replace Tom with BILL COWHER?! I'm sorry, what the HELL did Bill Cowher do with the Steelers? Numerous playoff and super bowl losses for 14 years until 2005 when he won. How is THAT any better than what Coughlin has done here? There is not a snowball's chance in hell Bill Cowher will be the next head coach of the Giants. And when TC goes, I want somebody young and unproven.

One other thing: I think this year has been one of TC's best here. After the offseason we had with losing guys to free agency (Boss, Smith) and injury, plus the Eagles signing everybody they did, everyone had the Giants pegged at 6-10 and well out of the playoffs. We're in control of our own destiny in the final week and could get a home playoff game. But of course if we make the playoffs, TC will get NO credit at all right?


Thank you for a MOST intelligent post! No, I'm not being sarcastic. Sweet Zombie's stupid *** "last half of the year collapses" argument is wearing thin. It's the final record and whether you're a contender that matters. We could certainly do worse than TC. Again, thanks for a very insightful post.

GMENAGAIN
12-31-2011, 04:30 PM
Why don't you tell everyone about your belief that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season???? lol

I make no secret of it.* Blowing an 11-1 season and home field advantage should have had a price to pay.

And no trips to the playoffs since then, and in fact have blown THREE chances to return to the playoffs in tragic fashion (2009 lose last ever game at Giants Stadium 41-9; 2010 Eagles with NFC-East on the line, biggest collapse in franchise history; 2010 against Green Bay with playoffs still up for grabs, lose 45-17).* Wow, how insane, right?* It just proves me more and more right that the 2008 collapse was the nexus of failure.* This franchise has wasted 3 years hoping for the magic to return.


ha ha . . . I love when you say that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season.

Can you say it one more time? Pleeeeease??? HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yoeddy
12-31-2011, 04:57 PM
Took a 4-12 team and won a Superbowl 4 years later. I'd rather have that than making the NFC Championship every year but never winning the big one. Ask any Eagles fan about that...

Partly agreed, but I think everybody would agree it's best to be playing your best football in November and December -- and that not winning a home playoff game is indicting.** Generally those signs are agreed upon as bad.


Jim Fassel had a fantastic December record...but I think Coughlin is a far better head coach.

yoeddy
12-31-2011, 05:00 PM
I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach.* <font color="#000000"><u>Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is.* He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.</u></font>

<font color="#0000FF">I'm not picking on you as a lot of posters feel the same way.* But what is "fatally" flawed?* As far as "clueless" you tell us what the problem is.* You have no more idea what goes on with this team (not do I) than 15 - 30 second sound bites in press interviews.* We don't see him at practice, in meetings, or have a clue as to what he's saying to who through his head piece when he's on the sidelines.* All we see are the results and *****.</font>

By "fatally flawed" I mean he is not learning from his mistakes and adapting.* You know the definition of insanity, right, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

As an outside observer I cannot tell what the actual problem is, although I have some theories.* All I see is a black box that takes input and produces output, with an occasional peek "behind the curtains" with revealing comments from beat reporters and people connected to the organization.* If that black box fails the same way in a repeated fashion over a long enough period of time, obviously something is wrong with it.

I have a background in engineering, and essentially we have to reverse-engineer this black box and speculate on what it does internally based on the input and output.

We see the late season collapses, repeatedly.* At this point it's a scientific certitude.
We see the poor 2nd half records, repeatedly.* Only better than .500 once (2005).
We see the no-shows in big games, repeatedly.* And we get the same stunned platitudes afterwards.

Now, granted, Tom and the Giants are not the type to air dirty laundry so what we get in both wins and losses should be considered a screen (think "Plato's Cave" in reverse).*

But Tom, the organization, the players, they ARE there every day and know every nook and cranny of the machine.* They are the engineers who design and maintain the black box.

The machine breaks in the same way, repeatedly.* And we're now on version 8.0 of the Tom Coughlin coaching black box and each new revision keeps breaking in the same way its predecessor did, which means either (a) they aren't changing anything, or (b) they don't know what the problems is and are making random changes hoping to solve the problem by accident.* Version 8.0 has many of the same problems that Version 1.0 had.* Time to find a new parts supplier, see what I'm saying?


Coughlin never had this "second half collapse" issue in Jacksonville...maybe it's not him?

GameTime
12-31-2011, 05:10 PM
I've never said he's garbage or that he's a bad coach. <FONT color=#000000><U>Just that he's fatally flawed -- and worse, clueless about addressing whatever the problem is. He just gives us the same platitudes, shrugs his shoulders, and hopes it goes away on its own.</U></FONT>

<FONT color=#0000ff>I'm not picking on you as a lot of posters feel the same way. But what is "fatally" flawed? As far as "clueless" you tell us what the problem is. You have no more idea what goes on with this team (not do I) than 15 - 30 second sound bites in press interviews. We don't see him at practice, in meetings, or have a clue as to what he's saying to who through his head piece when he's on the sidelines. All we see are the results and *****.</FONT>

By "fatally flawed" I mean he is not learning from his mistakes and adapting. You know the definition of insanity, right, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

As an outside observer I cannot tell what the actual problem is, although I have some theories. All I see is a black box that takes input and produces output, with an occasional peek "behind the curtains" with revealing comments from beat reporters and people connected to the organization. If that black box fails the same way in a repeated fashion over a long enough period of time, obviously something is wrong with it.

I have a background in engineering, and essentially we have to reverse-engineer this black box and speculate on what it does internally based on the input and output.

We see the late season collapses, repeatedly. At this point it's a scientific certitude.
We see the poor 2nd half records, repeatedly. Only better than .500 once (2005).
We see the no-shows in big games, repeatedly. And we get the same stunned platitudes afterwards.

Now, granted, Tom and the Giants are not the type to air dirty laundry so what we get in both wins and losses should be considered a screen (think "Plato's Cave" in reverse).

But Tom, the organization, the players, they ARE there every day and know every nook and cranny of the machine. They are the engineers who design and maintain the black box.

The machine breaks in the same way, repeatedly. And we're now on version 8.0 of the Tom Coughlin coaching black box and each new revision keeps breaking in the same way its predecessor did, which means either (a) they aren't changing anything, or (b) they don't know what the problems is and are making random changes hoping to solve the problem by accident. Version 8.0 has many of the same problems that Version 1.0 had. Time to find a new parts supplier, see what I'm saying?
Coughlin never had this "second half collapse" issue in Jacksonville...maybe it's not him?</P>


I am not nearly as negative as SZJ but TC is part of the collapses. He is part of the team he preaches team so he is part of the good, bad, and the ugly...</P>

GOBIGBLUE52
12-31-2011, 06:58 PM
Fire Coughlin after starting 11-1 and blowing HFA?

Hm, lets ask our good friends the San Diego Chargers how that worked out.

"Hey AJ Smith, what happened to Marty Schottenheimer in his last year?"
"Well, we were 14-2 in the regular season and lost our first playoff game, so we fired him."
"Oh really? How have you done since then?"
"We're about to fire his successor, our quarterback has regressed, we aren't making the playoffs and I'm out of a job! And we haven't won anything."

gmen46
12-31-2011, 07:36 PM
Of course, the hiring of Girardi did not fix the Yankees "fatal flaws" . . . . $200M in FA acquistions were necessary to do that. So the Joe Torre comparison is not even remotely relevant since his successor did not win with the same team.

Of course you neglect what is likely billions in spending to prop up the failed Joe Torre regime as well.

Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, A-Rod, Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Hideki Matsui, Carl Pavano, Jeff Weaver, Johnny Damon, any of these names ringing bells?* All big name acquisitions brought in after the glory years from 1996-2001.

What did that get them?

A humiliating WS loss in 2003 to the Marlins
A historic collapse against the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS
Consecutive first round exits in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

Remove Joe, who was once great but no longer cutting it and unable to identify or fix the problem, and two years later they win another World Series.*

Joe Torre was not able to identify why they collapsed against the Red Sox in 2004, much like Tom Coughlin was unable to identify the collapse against the Eagles in 2010.* Joe Torre was not able to explain the flame outs in the 2003 WS or in the 2005, 2006, and 2007 ALDS.* Tom Coughlin has not been able to explain the flame outs his tenure is known for, such as in 2009 the last ever game at Giants Stadium, or in the 2005 and 2008 playoffs.*

And at least Joe Torre won multiple championships and didn't have regular season collapses (I think there was maybe one year where they went on a massive losing streak at the end and finished with less than 90 wins).



And it is also widely known that TC's Jacksonville teams near the end
were the victims of salary cap hell and had very little talent . . . . .
he was not fired because players stopped listening to him. He was
fired because his players stopped having talent.

That may be the politically correct answer given by history (and still partially true) but I made a point to listen to Jaguar fans about the end of Coughlin's regime when he came in here.* They said the team stopped listening to him and they would come out flat and going through the motions.* The truth is probably a little of both.

The team went downhill and got stuck at 6-10.* If it weren't for Eli, we'd probably be 6-10 or worse.


But, we AREN'T 6-10, and never have been under Coughlin since his first year.

That's the difference.

Anybody can say "we'd probably be" this or "we'd probably be" that. But what matters--always--is what IS.

Your persistence and insistence in taking this view of Coughlin doesn't make you look good in your arguments.

As a wise man once said, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not to their own facts.

The Jags had losing seasons Coughlin's last 3 years as HC. After going to the post season 4 of his first 5 seasons.

THAT's why he was fired. Not the "oh, he lost the players" nonsense.

And he is on the cusp of taking the Giants to their 5th post season in his 8 years here, with NO losing seasons since his first as a Giant. Not to mention having won a Super Bowl. But I will.

rainierjef
12-31-2011, 07:40 PM
i was just about to post this lol.

this is why i think the giants should look for toms replacement and give him a seat in the of Position, thus leading him towards the GM role, now i like reese but tom has way more experience at evaluating talent and see which players have that dog in them. he's worth a shot at that position. i really hope they make him GM or asst GM

GMENAGAIN
12-31-2011, 09:21 PM
Many of the crazies on this MB espouse seemingly reasonable positions, but if you look close enough it's easy to find the crazy in them . . . . .

In the case of SweetZombieJesus, the stats that he copies and pastes into every thread may very well get TC fired in the end . . . . but his claim that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season completely undermines his credibility and shows that he just a nut . . . . .

Joe Morrison
12-31-2011, 09:35 PM
Do you really think they will change the coach after a Division Title - NFC Title and another Super Bowl Ring? I don't think so!

UmenYiourAnIdiot
01-01-2012, 02:32 AM
I like TC and hope he stays no matter what.

Garbloz
01-01-2012, 03:04 AM
tc is a good coach no idea why people would want him gone here.

SweetZombieJesus
01-01-2012, 10:17 AM
Do you really think they will change the coach after a Division Title - NFC Title and another Super Bowl Ring? I don't think so!

A division title would only be his 3rd in 8 years, and the prior 2 ended in first round bounces. Gotta do better.

SweetZombieJesus
01-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Fire Coughlin after starting 11-1 and blowing HFA?

Hm, lets ask our good friends the San Diego Chargers how that worked out.

"Hey AJ Smith, what happened to Marty Schottenheimer in his last year?"
"Well, we were 14-2 in the regular season and lost our first playoff game, so we fired him."
"Oh really? How have you done since then?"
"We're about to fire his successor, our quarterback has regressed, we aren't making the playoffs and I'm out of a job! And we haven't won anything."


And what has been the result of keeping TC here?

Pretty much the same (no playoffs) but add in some of the worst losses in franchise history and some of the worst defense the franchise has ever suffered. You like that?

At best your argument is a wash.

SweetZombieJesus
01-01-2012, 10:29 AM
Many of the crazies on this MB espouse seemingly reasonable positions, but if you look close enough it's easy to find the crazy in them . . . . .

In the case of SweetZombieJesus, the stats that he copies and pastes into every thread may very well get TC fired in the end . . . . but his claim that TC should have been fired after the 2008 season completely undermines his credibility and shows that he just a nut . . . . .

LOL, you're the nut.

Sometimes it's abundantly clear when a failure marks the end of an era. Only fools like you cover their ears and stomp their feet and wish like a 4 year old waiting for Santa Claus that the magic will come back. When it's clearly over, why waste the time? Why does the same point need to be proven over and over again, wasting years of the organization in the process?

Case in point: Pat Riley was done when he lost game 7 of the 1994 finals. Pretty clear nexus of failure and the Riley regime was basically done then and there.

Case in point: Joe Torre's regime has many failure points but the worst was losing the 2004 ALDS to the Red Sox after being up 3-0 and losing 4 straight. It could never be the same after the worst, most humiliating loss in franchise history. And it wasn't. The team wasted 3 more years getting the same disappointing result over and over again, waiting and hoping for the magic to return. "Let's give him one more year". Sound familiar?

The only way you get vindicated is if Coughlin breaks the cycle and wins his first ever home regular season game to get into the playoffs and wins his first home playoff game (assuming he can avoid a no-show this week).

It will break my heart if the Giants lose the division at home, or if they lose yet another home playoff game if they make it to the following week -- but the analytical part of me knows not only is it possible but it's overwhelmingly likely. At that point I'll be able to wave my finger in your face, for what that's worth.

Wes
01-01-2012, 11:13 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stack</P>


</P>


TC is not getting fired. Even if they lose tonight, i highly doubt he is getting fired. Only way Mara will part with TC is if TC retires. </P>


People are insane to question TC because of a few bad seasons. No coach is gonna win the SB or get to the playoffs every year and very few will have the success TC has had in this short time.</P>


We have rookies playing key roles, an OLine showing its age, injuries everywhere but yet they have a shot to win the division...people saying that the players dont respond ot him anymore, need to only look to that to see that they do.</P>


This team hasnt underachieved all year, they have overachieved if anything and its largely because of TC and Eli. EVERYONE but the fans see that. Sometimes they look like they should look, a team who has rookies starting key positions and too many injuries and a team whos Oline that is cracking.....BUT they have been able to overcome these problems enough (overachieve) and win enough games to have a shot at winning the NFCE and becoming the 4th seed...look at all these rookies, undrafted freeagents and 4th n 6th round picks we got starting on this team and tell me that TC isnt getting the most out of his players....</P>


Mara isnt a fool, he knows hes just a handful or less of pieces away from being a contender again. Why would he fire TC now?</P>


If Mara has any sense then he will retain TC and get him the obvious pieces he needs .</P>


BUT i think its a possibility TC retires...and if that happens cowher would likely be the new coach.</P>

Roswell777
01-01-2012, 11:17 AM
Please. There clear*shots of full*sideline celebrations by players and coachs in the SB example you used. Mayhaps your preception is skewed to an extreme in trying to make a point. Salt,pepper?

You'll have to do better than WHEN THE GAME IS OVER.* I once again challenge you to show it with time still on the clock.

I have all the games recorded so a simple time index will be sufficient.

As for my argument, go to 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aoVP6Q3MJoQ#t=250s


Most of your points are well presented but I seem to remember seeing Harry Carson, a team leader if there ever was one, putting on a yellow security jacket, looking into the crowd, or the cameras, and telling everyone to quiet down while he prepared the Gatorade bath for Coach Parcells.

That was during Super Bowl XXI.

No?

That's the only issue I take with your argument. Football is an emotional game and sometimes these guys celebrate too soon. That being said, there was no excuse for last year's collapse, which was the biggest collapse in a single game I ever saw.

Wes
01-01-2012, 11:24 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stack</P>


</P>


I honestly believe, that Mara and Cowher are waiting to see what TC does. I believe Mara and TC will have a sit down once the season is over for us and determine thier next steps. I dont think Mara wants to fire TC.</P>


However, I do think Mara has likely, in verbal agreement only, told cowher that if and when TC retires, the job is his. </P>


So, I think Cowher wont make any decisions on coaching this year until TC makes his and knowing TC he is not going to even go to that avenue until the season is done. Thats the kinda man, coach he is.</P>


This is all speculation, but its what I believe lol and its likely why cowher is holding off on taking any jobs. I also think thats why TC has not signed an extension yet.</P>


TC will want to go home, talk to his family, then meet with Mara, make his decision, then Mara will notify Cowher who will then make his decision, which I think Cowher will take the miami job but the giants are likely his first choice.</P>


Again, this is all a bunch of speculation, but if you put it all together, it adds up to me. It is widely known and often talked about how Cowher covets this job and being there has been no extension given to TC, maybe TC hinted to mara that this could be his last year.</P>


</P>


I think Cowher would like to return to coaching this year, but will wait TC out first.</P>


</P>


My 2 cents.</P>

Down-lifer
01-01-2012, 11:24 AM
I like Coughlin, always have.

poppa smurph
01-01-2012, 11:29 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8258f99f/article/departing-owner-looks-back-fondly-on-coughlin-era-in-jacksonville?module=HP11_headline_stack</P>


</P>


I honestly believe, that Mara and Cowher are waiting to see what TC does. I believe Mara and TC will have a sit down once the season is over for us and determine thier next steps. I dont think Mara wants to fire TC.</P>


However, I do think Mara has likely, in verbal agreement only, told cowher that if and when TC retires, the job is his. </P>


So, I think Cowher wont make any decisions on coaching this year until TC makes his and knowing TC he is not going to even go to that avenue until the season is done. Thats the kinda man, coach he is.</P>


This is all speculation, but its what I believe lol and its likely why cowher is holding off on taking any jobs. I also think thats why TC has not signed an extension yet.</P>


TC will want to go home, talk to his family, then meet with Mara, make his decision, then Mara will notify Cowher who will then make his decision, which <FONT size=6>I think Cowher will take the miami job but the giants are likely his first choice.</FONT></P>


Again, this is all a bunch of speculation, but if you put it all together, it adds up to me. It is widely known and often talked about how Cowher covets this job and being there has been no extension given to TC, maybe TC hinted to mara that this could be his last year.</P>


</P>


I think Cowher would like to return to coaching this year, but will wait TC out first.</P>


</P>


My 2 cents.</P>Just wondering why anyone would take the Dolphins on over the Giants, especially if the Giants are his first choice...could you clear up that statement?