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rebelfan1966
06-23-2013, 03:30 AM
I looked and did not see a thread about this already ???? Anyhow, how does everyone feel about Kurt putting Eli at #6 and Peyton at #4? In my mind, Eli should have been at least #5 and Peyton should have been in the top #3. I don't understand how Big Ben is ranked higher than Eli & how Brees is higher than Peyton. Also, he had Romo and Rivers on the list of top 10 QBs, but no RGIII or Andrew Luck ?

Drez
06-23-2013, 03:35 AM
Well, Luck and Griffin just completed their rookie seasons, so a larger data set is needed.

And as to the rest, sounds like some more of the typical anti-Manning Warner bull**** that we've seen.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 05:18 AM
Actually, I thought Kurt Warners list was good. Of course there are debatable placements that can be argues but nothing on it is far fetched or seems to be biased.

I think Eli Manning is better than Ben Rothlisberger but they are very close and I can see if someone prefers Ben.

I am surprised that Peyton Manning was listed a shigh as #4 due to his choking away a playoffs victory once again.

Toadofsteel
06-23-2013, 08:11 AM
Doesn't seem to be overly biased from where i'm standing. I might have rated RG3 a little lower, since honestly I think 90% of his game is Alfred Morris, but on the other hand I might have rated Russel Wilson a little higher.

Also, I remember seeing a video (don't remember where from though) that said when Eli flopped right out of the gate in 2004, Warner insisted that Eli remain the starter, as to put Warner back in would stunt Eli's development. For all we know, Kurt knows better than any of us that Eli does his best when people are saying he can't... reverse psychology much?

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 08:21 AM
Doesn't seem to be overly biased from where i'm standing. I might have rated RG3 a little lower, since honestly I think 90% of his game is Alfred Morris, but on the other hand I might have rated Russel Wilson a little higher.

Warner didn't rank either of them.

His list:


10. Tony Romo
9. Philip Rivers
8. Joe Flacco
7. Matt Ryan
6. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
2. Aaron Rodgers
1. Tom Brady.

http://www.giants.com/media-vault/videos/Kurt-Warners-top-10-QBs/


I don't have a problem with it - Ben and Eli are fairly interchangeable depending on who you ask.

fletch842
06-23-2013, 08:40 AM
ranking players is very subjective even for the least biased. I don't see a problem with this list, and you can argue individuals spots all day long.

Harooni
06-23-2013, 09:19 AM
Kurt Warner as usual is fair and knowledgeable.

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 10:00 AM
Putting mini Ben in front of Eli is a slap on the face. If you're not able to throw a TD in a SB but your WR can you don't belong on the list. And to top it off, single handedly losing a SB by himself. He shouldn't be top 10 IMO

TCHOF
06-23-2013, 10:03 AM
Warner didn't rank either of them.

His list:

10. Tony Romo
9. Philip Rivers
8. Joe Flacco
7. Matt Ryan
6. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
2. Aaron Rodgers
1. Tom Brady.

http://www.giants.com/media-vault/videos/Kurt-Warners-top-10-QBs/


I don't have a problem with it - Ben and Eli are fairly interchangeable depending on who you ask.

I agree. I would personally rather have Eli, but it's not a ridiculous argument either way.

TCHOF
06-23-2013, 10:04 AM
Putting mini Ben in front of Eli is a slap on the face. If you're not able to throw a TD in a SB but your WR can you don't belong on the list. And to top it off, single handedly losing a SB by himself. He shouldn't be top 10 IMO

I was going to offer a real response to this silly post, but then I saw your sig and decided why bother?

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 10:07 AM
Putting mini Ben in front of Eli is a slap on the face. If you're not able to throw a TD in a SB but your WR can you don't belong on the list. And to top it off, single handedly losing a SB by himself. He shouldn't be top 10 IMO
Because a single game is what you use to judge an entire career, right?

What of Romo, Rivers and Ryan? They haven't even played in one Super Bowl, let alone three. If Ben doesn't belong in the top 10, then neither do they.

njsean
06-23-2013, 10:10 AM
Eh, he probably just didn't want to come across as bias against Ben for losing to him in the SB. Or, yeah, well, that's just, like, his opinion, man.

Delicreep
06-23-2013, 10:46 AM
Kurt Warner as usual is fair and knowledgeable.

Is Warner one of the few talking heads who actually looks at Peyton and takes into account his health instead of just history and emotion?

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 11:03 AM
Is Warner one of the few talking heads who actually looks at Peyton and takes into account his health instead of just history and emotion?
Yeah possibly. It's interesting with Peyton, because, while he did have a great season, he clearly wasn't what he once was. Not physically, at least.
Meanwhile, Brees, Rodgers and Brady are all near the peak of their powers.

I do wonder if Peyton will get some more of his strength back this season. Given his age, it'll be an uphill battle.

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 11:04 AM
Eh, he probably just didn't want to come across as bias against Ben for losing to him in the SB. Or, yeah, well, that's just, like, his opinion, man. Good point. One decent SB and people begin to rate him as a top QB. Eventually he falls flat on his face again and loses to the packers all by himself and it kind of puts things into perspective. He's not a QB you can rely on throwing the ball winning games like that. His job is to hand the ball off and let his defense do all the work. Even James Harrison went after mini Ben after he lost the SB saying he needs to know his role and not act like Peyton manning.

NYGabriel
06-23-2013, 11:18 AM
Roethlisberger is statistically better than Eli in almost every category. Wins losses, qb rating, td int, completion pct. Being a giants fan I'd take Eli 5th but Roethlisberger is a very good qb.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 11:25 AM
His list is fair. The only thing I'd switch is Eli at #5 and Peyton ahead of Drew.

FBomb
06-23-2013, 11:34 AM
http://www.krismillerlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Blog-Child-Support-Oh-No.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=12M4SAetTHOl9M&tbnid=XXEIX1iKLFog_M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.krismillerlaw.com%2Fcolorado-springs-divorce-and-family-law-blog%2Fblog-child-support-oh-no%2F&ei=XgfHUe_KFfO84APd3oCYBg&bvm=bv.48293060,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNG5Vt7jMkLnwU96Uc6q_V49oJvPRw&ust=1372084405639311)

Another meaningless list for someone to get their panties in a bunch over.

FishinTheSalt
06-23-2013, 11:35 AM
These lists are pointless.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 11:45 AM
Actually, I thought Kurt Warners list was good. Of course there are debatable placements that can be argues but nothing on it is far fetched or seems to be biased.

I think Eli Manning is better than Ben Rothlisberger but they are very close and I can see if someone prefers Ben.

I am surprised that Peyton Manning was listed a shigh as #4 due to his choking away a playoffs victory once again.

Peyton most certainly did not choke away the Baltimore game last year......he threw for 270 yards, 3 TDs and no picks. The Broncos defense handed Baltimore the game at the end that day.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 11:51 AM
Peyton most certainly did not choke away the Baltimore game last year......he threw for 270 yards, 3 TDs and no picks. The Broncos defense handed Baltimore the game at the end that day.He had one pick.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 11:55 AM
He had one pick.

I don't remember him throwing any, and one source said 0, just checked ESPN and it says 2. Oh well. Anyway, my point still stands that Peyton didn't choke last year in the playoffs, it was the defense who choked big time at the end of regulation to allow the game to go in to OT.

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 11:58 AM
Even after mini Ben handed the packers the SB on a silver platter his defense did all they can to put him in a position to win. Down by 6 with plenty of time left. But mini Ben came up short. With an aging defense who can't carry him and his super west coast offense not getting the job done, he can't get his team into the playoffs in his prime.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 11:59 AM
I don't remember him throwing any, and one source said 0, just checked ESPN and it says 2. Oh well. Anyway, my point still stands that Peyton didn't choke last year in the playoffs, it was the defense who choked big time at the end of regulation to allow the game to go in to OT.I don't remember the first one, but the second one game on the very first play in OT. Both his defense and himself didn't do much justice in that game.

Still, his playoff resume isn't very impressive.

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 12:01 PM
I don't remember him throwing any, and one source said 0, just checked ESPN and it says 2. Oh well. Anyway, my point still stands that Peyton didn't choke last year in the playoffs, it was the defense who choked big time at the end of regulation to allow the game to go in to OT.
Peyton threw a pick right at the death.

The oddest thing about that game was that the Broncos had the final possession in regulation, yet rather than attempt a last gasp drive, John Fox decided to take a knee and go to OT.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 12:03 PM
Peyton threw a pick right at the death.

The oddest thing about that game was that the Broncos had the final possession in regulation, yet rather than attempt a last gasp drive, John Fox decided to take a knee and go to OT.I didn't agree with that decision. I was arguing with a user on here about it, and he agreed with Fox. I thought it was a little arrogant. He had 30ish seconds on the clock, they could have at least tried to kick a field goal, at the very least. Fox probably just assumed that they'd win in overtime.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 12:04 PM
I don't remember the first one, but the second one game on the very first play in OT. Both his defense and himself didn't do much justice in that game.

Still, his playoff resume isn't very impressive.

He has earned that reputation, but just talking about last year alone, I don't think he played a major role in their loss to the point where I would say that he choked again.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 12:04 PM
He has earned that reputation, but just talking about last year alone, I don't think he played a major role in their loss to the point where I would say that he choked again.True.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 12:04 PM
Peyton threw a pick right at the death.

The oddest thing about that game was that the Broncos had the final possession in regulation, yet rather than attempt a last gasp drive, John Fox decided to take a knee and go to OT.

Definitely a dumb move in hindsight

Roosevelt
06-23-2013, 12:06 PM
These lists are pointless.

Kurt was certainly successful in what he set out to do - get people talking.

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 12:06 PM
Even after mini Ben handed the packers the SB on a silver platter his defense did all they can to put him in a position to win. Down by 6 with plenty of time left. But mini Ben came up short. With an aging defense who can't carry him and his super west coast offense not getting the job done, he can't get his team into the playoffs in his prime.
You realize that Eli also failed to make the playoffs last season, right?

And "mini Ben"? Come on, that's one of the weakest attempts at a derisive nickname I've seen. Ben is dubbed "big" because of his bulk. Calling him "mini" suggests he's lost weight, which isn't exactly a bad thing.


I didn't agree with that decision. I was arguing with a user on here about it, and he agreed with Fox. I thought it was a little arrogant. He had 30ish seconds on the clock, they could have at least tried to kick a field goal, at the very least. Fox probably just assumed that they'd win in overtime.
I didn't like it, either. It's like giving up. Yes, there was a risk attached seeing as they were close to their own end-zone, but there's a risk attached to every play. Taking a knee when you have a chance to win a playoff game just seems... strange.

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 12:09 PM
You realize that Eli also failed to make the playoffs last season, right?

And "mini Ben"? Come on, that's one of the weakest attempts at a derisive nickname I've seen. Ben is dubbed "big" because of his bulk. Calling him "mini" suggests he's lost weight, which isn't exactly a bad thing.The difference is, in HIS eyes is that Eli has stupid coaches, which kept him out of the playoffs.

B&RWarrior
06-23-2013, 12:11 PM
I was going to offer a real response to this silly post, but then I saw your sig and decided why bother?

I think the sig is supposed to be in red.

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 12:12 PM
Eli has proven to get the giants to the playoffs with a terrible defense. This #5 ranked guy (lol) hasn't.

B&RWarrior
06-23-2013, 12:15 PM
Even after mini Ben handed the packers the SB on a silver platter his defense did all they can to put him in a position to win. Down by 6 with plenty of time left. But mini Ben came up short. With an aging defense who can't carry him and his super west coast offense not getting the job done, he can't get his team into the playoffs in his prime.

We've missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years. You can argue either way but there isn't a sizable gap between the 2 either way.

B&RWarrior
06-23-2013, 12:18 PM
The difference is, in HIS eyes is that Eli has stupid coaches, which kept him out of the playoffs.


Are you trying to say Lebron had something to do with it?

Rudyy
06-23-2013, 12:21 PM
Are you trying to say Lebron had something to do with it?Lol if Eli is anything like LeBron, then he would be the most hated/scrutinized player in the NFL, and also one of the best if not the best to ever play the game.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 12:57 PM
Good point. One decent SB and people begin to rate him as a top QB. Eventually he falls flat on his face again and loses to the packers all by himself and it kind of puts things into perspective. He's not a QB you can rely on throwing the ball winning games like that. His job is to hand the ball off and let his defense do all the work. Even James Harrison went after mini Ben after he lost the SB saying he needs to know his role and not act like Peyton manning.

Ben did hand the ball off to Rashad Mendenhal, who subsequently fumbled the game away. Ben didn't cause Rashad's fumble.

I prefer Eli over Ben but they are very close.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 01:00 PM
Peyton most certainly did not choke away the Baltimore game last year......he threw for 270 yards, 3 TDs and no picks. The Broncos defense handed Baltimore the game at the end that day.

Peyton Manning threw two picks in that game, one of them a pick six and the most critical pick came later in OT when he panicked from the pressure and threw a very stupid, very poorly thrown pass that sealed Denver Bronco's fats. Of course all the experts made the excuses for him like they always do and the excuse on that day was that Peyton doesn't play well in the cold.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 01:04 PM
He has earned that reputation, but just talking about last year alone, I don't think he played a major role in their loss to the point where I would say that he choked again.

Of course he choked again, there is no way around it. The guy got a little pressure and panicked, he does it all the time in the postseason.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 01:08 PM
The difference is, in HIS eyes is that Eli has stupid coaches, which kept him out of the playoffs.

I think our OC is horrible and should be gotten rid of. Also, there were plenty of big drops by recievers, particulary Victor cruz last year. However, Eli Manning failed to come through on a number of key plays that would have won us games and more than likely gotten us to the playoffs. The primary blame is on him because he is the QB and the leader of NY Giants. He gets paid to make the clutch plays and in 2012, he didn't

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 01:12 PM
Peyton Manning threw two picks in that game, one of them a pick six and the most critical pick came later in OT when he panicked from the pressure and threw a very stupid, very poorly thrown pass that sealed Denver Bronco's fats. Of course all the experts made the excuses for him like they always do and the excuse on that day was that Peyton doesn't play well in the cold.

The game should have never gone in to OT. If it wasn't for the Broncos FS and CB choking on the Jones TD at the end of regulation, we would be talking about another Super Bowl champion this year.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 01:14 PM
Of course he choked again, there is no way around it. The guy got a little pressure and panicked, he does it all the time in the postseason.

Saying that he choked implies that it was largely his fault that they lost the game, which simply is not true. It should have never came down to that pass period, so I don't know how you give everyone else a pass.

GameTime
06-23-2013, 01:22 PM
I looked and did not see a thread about this already ???? Anyhow, how does everyone feel about Kurt putting Eli at #6 and Peyton at #4? In my mind, Eli should have been at least #5 and Peyton should have been in the top #3. I don't understand how Big Ben is ranked higher than Eli & how Brees is higher than Peyton. Also, he had Romo and Rivers on the list of top 10 QBs, but no RGIII or Andrew Luck ?
Luck and RG are kids...they dont deserve to be on any list unless its rookies...
Romo is a very good QB....most of the time and so is Rivers....but they havent got the big time game wins.
Warner likes Ben better as a QB thats why he his ranked higher...

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 01:24 PM
Saying that he choked implies that it was largely his fault that they lost the game, which simply is not true. It should have never came down to that pass period, so I don't know how you give everyone else a pass.

It was OT, he got a little bit of pressure on him and he panicked. There is no way around it that Peyton Manning choked in the postseason, again.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFL-Network-Corey-Graham-Picks-Off-Manning-In-OT/0ebf0d45-90fd-4bb6-bfe0-00656044c826

Here is the one to Tracy Porter in SuperBowl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBlvjtfpPAg

These are major chokes on Peyton Manning's part. The picks are all on him, regardless of the excuses that folks want to make. Heck, you can't even blame the teams he was playing for because they are two different teams. The chokes Peyton pully off in the postseason are Romoesque. They are very akin to the ones that Romosexual pulls off during regular season.

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 01:37 PM
It was OT, he got a little bit of pressure on him and he panicked. There is no way around it that Peyton Manning choked in the postseason, again.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFL-Network-Corey-Graham-Picks-Off-Manning-In-OT/0ebf0d45-90fd-4bb6-bfe0-00656044c826

Here is the one to Tracy Porter in SuperBowl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBlvjtfpPAg

These are major chokes on Peyton Manning's part. The picks are all on him, regardless of the excuses that folks want to make. Heck, you can't even blame the teams he was playing for because they are two different teams. The chokes Peyton pully off in the postseason are Romoesque. They are very akin to the ones that Romosexual pulls off during regular season.

I know what rep Peyton has, however we were only talking about one game, that being last years playoff game against the Ravens. Let me reiterate the point that the game should have never gone in to OT. Choking is giving up a 70 yard touchdown with 40 seconds to go when the opposing team needed a touchdown to stay in the game. It doesn't make sense that you are blaming Peyton yet the Broncos secondary receives none.

BuffyBlueII
06-23-2013, 01:44 PM
I know what rep Peyton has, however we were only talking about one game, that being last years playoff game against the Ravens. Let me reiterate the point that the game should have never gone in to OT. Choking is giving up a 70 yard touchdown with 40 seconds to go when the opposing team needed a touchdown to stay in the game. It doesn't make sense that you are blaming Peyton yet the Broncos secondary receives none.

Regardless of whatever happenned before that, Peyton Manning still threw the dumb pick in OT that sealed their fate. OT is an entirely new game and he choked it away. He is the QB and the leader of that team.

Throughout Peyton Manning's career, it seems that it is always the teams fault for the postseason woes, folks always harp on that. What they don't harp on when they shower accolades on Peyton for the SuperBowl victory is that during that run, he threw 3 TDs and 7 picks in postseason. He was awful that post season but the same detractors that blame his teams for his postseason chokes don't give them credit for picking up the slack during that run.

Peyton Manning now has eight one and done appearances in NFL postseason under four different coaches and only one of those teams that ousted him went on to win SuperBowl.

Roosevelt
06-23-2013, 01:48 PM
It was OT, he got a little bit of pressure on him and he panicked. There is no way around it that Peyton Manning choked in the postseason, again.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFL-Network-Corey-Graham-Picks-Off-Manning-In-OT/0ebf0d45-90fd-4bb6-bfe0-00656044c826

Here is the one to Tracy Porter in SuperBowl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBlvjtfpPAg

These are major chokes on Peyton Manning's part. The picks are all on him, regardless of the excuses that folks want to make. Heck, you can't even blame the teams he was playing for because they are two different teams. The chokes Peyton pully off in the postseason are Romoesque. They are very akin to the ones that Romosexual pulls off during regular season.

Buffy you sound like a drama queen with this talk - "he got a little bit of pressure on him and he panicked". Peyton did what he always does when under pressure, he tried to make a play. Did you ever think that maybe he over-estimated his arm strength on that play and maybe he hadn't regained 100% arm-strength?

Having a little fun talking smack is one thing, but when you repeatedly take shots at one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game, you just come off as classless. And if this just another attempt to try and build up Eli, then that is just truly pathetic.

Drez
06-23-2013, 01:49 PM
Is Warner one of the few talking heads who actually looks at Peyton and takes into account his health instead of just history and emotion?How would his missing the year before last affect his ranking? Brady missed a season before, does that affect his?

ShakeandBake
06-23-2013, 01:49 PM
Regardless of whatever happenned before that, Peyton Manning still threw the dumb pick in OT that sealed their fate. OT is an entirely new game and he choked it away. He is the QB and the leader of that team.

Throughout Peyton Manning's career, it seems that it is always the teams fault for the postseason woes, folks always harp on that. What they don't harp on when they shower accolades on Peyton for the SuperBowl victory is that during that run, he threw 3 TDs and 7 picks in postseason. He was awful that post season but the same detractors that blame his teams for his postseason chokes don't give them credit for picking up the slack during that run.

Peyton Manning now has eight one and done appearances in NFL postseason under four different coaches and only one of those teams that ousted him went on to win SuperBowl.

Oh ok, so regulation doesn't matter at all, and had no bearing on the game going in to OT, gotcha.

BigBlue1971
06-23-2013, 01:53 PM
usually I don't agree with Warner when hes ranking qbs however this list seems to be right on.

its questionable if Ben should be in front of Eli. Eli had the better year last year.

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 01:54 PM
Ben did hand the ball off to Rashad Mendenhal, who subsequently fumbled the game away. Ben didn't cause Rashad's fumble.I prefer Eli over Ben but they are very close.this didn't occur on the final drive. Ben had 4 chances to get a first down and failed. Stop making excuses for his terrible SB performance. He handed the game to the packers. Even his teammate called him out after the game.

Delicreep
06-23-2013, 03:30 PM
How would his missing the year before last affect his ranking? Brady missed a season before, does that affect his?

Has nothing to do with the missing year itself; it has to do with Peyton still recovering from surgery, having a weaker arm by his own admission, and the need for him to compensate for both.

It's actually pretty amazing that the guy still ended up being one of the best QB's in the league.

Next year, a fully healthy Peyton may be in that conversation about the best in the league again.

Buddy333
06-23-2013, 03:43 PM
Looks like a good list with the exception of #1. Rodgers should have been #1.

giantsfan420
06-23-2013, 04:16 PM
Regardless of whatever happenned before that, Peyton Manning still threw the dumb pick in OT that sealed their fate. OT is an entirely new game and he choked it away. He is the QB and the leader of that team.

Throughout Peyton Manning's career, it seems that it is always the teams fault for the postseason woes, folks always harp on that. What they don't harp on when they shower accolades on Peyton for the SuperBowl victory is that during that run, he threw 3 TDs and 7 picks in postseason. He was awful that post season but the same detractors that blame his teams for his postseason chokes don't give them credit for picking up the slack during that run.

Peyton Manning now has eight one and done appearances in NFL postseason under four different coaches and only one of those teams that ousted him went on to win SuperBowl.nice post. it is a bit odd that people dont seperate peytons reg season and postseason success bc hes a much better reg. season qb.

he has routinely either had poor games, or made costly late game mistakes throughout his postseason career. but, he was also going up against NE i think 3 or 4x? Pittsburg SD when they had their prime guys...still, I agree. On that particular late game int, Peyton did choke. he felt the pressure and made a horrible throw. that doesnt excuse the rest of the team, but it damn sure doesnt excuse the pass.

giantsfan420
06-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I didn't agree with that decision. I was arguing with a user on here about it, and he agreed with Fox. I thought it was a little arrogant. He had 30ish seconds on the clock, they could have at least tried to kick a field goal, at the very least. Fox probably just assumed that they'd win in overtime.especially with that kicker. he had an unreal 2 yrs, (the one with tebow and he was solid last season as well). I think u try and get to the 50 and let him try and kick it in the thin air @ Denver. I thought it was very odd too. I guess the thinking was, they could just win it in OT why risk LOSING it in reg. season

Flip Empty
06-23-2013, 08:32 PM
its questionable if Ben should be in front of Eli. Eli had the better year last year.

Nah, they were actually pretty close, even though Ben missed three games:

Ben: 26TDs/8INTs; 3265yds
Eli: 26TDs/15INTs; 3948yds

Harooni
06-23-2013, 08:34 PM
Nah, they were actually pretty close, even though Ben missed three games:

Ben: 26TDs/8INTs; 3265yds
Eli: 26TDs/15INTs; 3948yds

its all in fans heads because of the manning name. in fact eli threw 7 more int's. its been l;ike this ben throws 1 td pass in the SB and he is there for the ride. Eli or Peyton throw 1 td and they are hero mvps

EliDaMANning
06-23-2013, 09:39 PM
Ben needs his WR to throw TD passes for him in a rigged Super Bowl. He makes me laugh.

Delicreep
06-23-2013, 09:40 PM
its all in fans heads because of the manning name. in fact eli threw 7 more int's. its been l;ike this ben throws 1 td pass in the SB and he is there for the ride. Eli or Peyton throw 1 td and they are hero mvps

Do you actually believe any of this?

GameTime
06-23-2013, 10:24 PM
its all in fans heads because of the manning name. in fact eli threw 7 more int's. its been l;ike this ben throws 1 td pass in the SB and he is there for the ride. Eli or Peyton throw 1 td and they are hero mvps

sounds pretty dumb IMO

ImElectric2
06-24-2013, 12:46 AM
Actually, I thought Kurt Warners list was good. Of course there are debatable placements that can be argues but nothing on it is far fetched or seems to be biased.

I think Eli Manning is better than Ben Rothlisberger but they are very close and I can see if someone prefers Ben.

I am surprised that Peyton Manning was listed a shigh as #4 due to his choking away a playoffs victory once again.

Yeah, I can't believe Peyton mis-played that deep ball. If he makes that play in the secondary who knows who the Super Bowl champs are?

BlueSanta
06-24-2013, 01:22 AM
I actually like the Steelers. I respect the organization for how they operate. There is a reason the Rooneys and Maras have been close friends.

That said, I think Ben Should be ranked below Eli. Both players have a failing. Eli can turn it over in silly fashion sometimes. Ben's flaw is that he holds onto the ball WAY too long. On the flip side, both players can be incredible players when hot and can take over a game.

My problem is that Ben's mistake is beginning to shorten his career. HIs injuries are mounting. It is becoming an every other week event for Ben to come off the field because of some injury he suffered holding onto the ball too long. He has only ever played all 16 games once in his career and they are suffering when he goes off the field.

Furthermore, the Steelers have have 1 of the best defenses in the league every single year that Ben has been in Pitt. The defense has been the star of that team. The same cannot be said here in NY. In fact, we have had 2 of the 3 worst defensive years in franchise history during Eli's tenure.There are times when the defense has carried this team, but you simply cannot argue that it is anywhere near the scale at which the Steelers have been carried by their defense.

giantsfan420
06-24-2013, 01:47 AM
great post blue santa.

and Imelectric: no one is disputing the denver secondary blew that coverage when saying peyton choked on that INT. one does not absolve the other. but peyton was feeling the pressure, rolled out, and threw a terrible pick throwin against his momentum. favre threw a late game int in the nfc cg with minnesota in almost the same manner. thats just a terrible decision that really, imo, is equivalent to a left handed fling almost. throwing against your momentum across your body almost always is going to end up a pick, especially when the qb serves it up loft style. it rarely works, n when it does, it almost exclusively due to arm strength, which is why imo peyton and favre attempted those passes; they forgot they weren't ten years younger.

i knew as soon as peyton began to roll out that a bad play was going to happen. thats one area eli doesnt get enough credit imo. how often do we see pocket passers become terrible when having to move off their designated spot and are forced to move. eli, while def. not the most coordinated guy, and his issue in that regard isnt his ability to make any throw on the move, he often is forced to throw under pressure off his back foot. or he'll step up and roll to the right. he's very good when doing that, almost lethal. i can recall tons of positive plays when eli does that, just a couple off the top of my head: vs Seattle a few yrs ago when cruz made a late game catch shoe string style right before the late game int iirc. the td pass to cruz @ home when philly had vince young. nfc cg vs SF to bradshaw...

i cant recall many game ending INTS from eli in a while either. i guess that seattle game but that ball went off cruz's hands to the point he practically handed it to the defender after slipping.

giantscolombia
06-24-2013, 09:52 AM
Warner didn't rank either of them.

His list:

10. Tony Romo
9. Philip Rivers
8. Joe Flacco
7. Matt Ryan
6. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
2. Aaron Rodgers
1. Tom Brady.
I don't have a problem with it - Ben and Eli are fairly interchangeable depending on who you ask.

I do think that Eli and Ben need to be exchanged... Eli is significantly better than Ben...

TCHOF
06-24-2013, 10:21 AM
I actually like the Steelers. I respect the organization for how they operate. There is a reason the Rooneys and Maras have been close friends.

That said, I think Ben Should be ranked below Eli. Both players have a failing. Eli can turn it over in silly fashion sometimes. Ben's flaw is that he holds onto the ball WAY too long. On the flip side, both players can be incredible players when hot and can take over a game.

My problem is that Ben's mistake is beginning to shorten his career. HIs injuries are mounting. It is becoming an every other week event for Ben to come off the field because of some injury he suffered holding onto the ball too long. He has only ever played all 16 games once in his career and they are suffering when he goes off the field.

Furthermore, the Steelers have have 1 of the best defenses in the league every single year that Ben has been in Pitt. The defense has been the star of that team. The same cannot be said here in NY. In fact, we have had 2 of the 3 worst defensive years in franchise history during Eli's tenure.There are times when the defense has carried this team, but you simply cannot argue that it is anywhere near the scale at which the Steelers have been carried by their defense.
Excellent post

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 10:44 AM
I know we bust on Romo but he is definitely a better qb then RG3 and Luck right now. As for him putting Eli 6 I have no problem with that. It's a toss up between him and Ben. I have more of a problem with him putting Peyton at 4 behind Rodgers and Brees. Rodgers is the best right now but Peyton and Brady will always be 1,2.

Buddy333
06-24-2013, 10:48 AM
Rodgers stands alone at the top. Then there is Brady, Peyton, and Brees in another group that can go in any order. After that the top ten can change from season to season.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 10:51 AM
To be fair Rodgers doesn't stand alone at the top. An argument can be made for Brady or Peyton too.

Buddy333
06-24-2013, 10:52 AM
The last two seasons Rodgers has been dominating.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 10:55 AM
The last two seasons Rodgers has been dominating.So has Brady and Brady has made it farther in the playoffs both years..

Buddy333
06-24-2013, 10:58 AM
The last two seasons by Rodgers have been some of the best played by a QB ever. He is just playing on another level.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:02 AM
The last two seasons by Rodgers have been some of the best played by a QB ever. He is just playing on another level.His mvp season...he still didn't have a better year then Tom Brady did in '07 and last year he only threw 5 more touchdowns. I know he's the best now but it's not by a mile.

Flip Empty
06-24-2013, 11:03 AM
So has Brady and Brady has made it farther in the playoffs both years..
84 TDs to 14 INTs over Rodgers' last two seasons. He's been ridiculously good.

Buddy333
06-24-2013, 11:06 AM
Did you see his QB rating just two seasons ago? The fact he has thrown 70+ TD's more than interceptions the last two seasons is amazing.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:06 AM
84 TDs to 14 INTs over Rodgers' last two seasons. He's been ridiculously good.73 TD's and 20 ints...I'd say that pretty damn good as well. They are not that far off. It's not like Lebron James and Kevin Durant.

gumby74
06-24-2013, 11:06 AM
Funny how we have reverse trolls now. It used to be people talking smack about Eli to get everyone all riled up. Now it's the other way around.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Funny how we have reverse trolls now. It used to be people talking smack about Eli to get everyone all riled up. Now it's the other way around.I'm not trying to rile up anyone, don't know what your talking about??

gumby74
06-24-2013, 11:12 AM
I'm not trying to rile up anyone, don't know what your talking about?? Wasn't talking to you. You have a little Eli crazy in you, but respectable.

The kids who are bitter, who just need an avenue to lash out, are pretty obvious. Heck, they're just "casual" Giants fans anyway.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Wasn't talking to you. You have a little Eli crazy in you, but respectable.thanks...I think.

Flip Empty
06-24-2013, 11:16 AM
Wasn't talking to you. You have a little Eli crazy in you, but respectable.

The kids who are the bitter, who just need an avenue to lash out, are pretty obvious. Heck, they're just "casual" Giants fans anyway.
Name calling is what gets everyone riled up. We were comparing Rodgers to Brady and you come in with this?

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:16 AM
Warner didn't rank either of them.

His list:


10. Tony Romo
9. Philip Rivers
8. Joe Flacco
7. Matt Ryan
6. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
2. Aaron Rodgers
1. Tom Brady.

http://www.giants.com/media-vault/videos/Kurt-Warners-top-10-QBs/


I don't have a problem with it - Ben and Eli are fairly interchangeable depending on who you ask.Seriously I hate Romo but you could put him in front of Rivers, Flacco and Ryan I think.

gumby74
06-24-2013, 11:18 AM
Name calling is what gets everyone riled up. We were comparing Rodgers to Brady and you come in with this? I'm home sick from work. What else am I going to do for amusement?

Flip Empty
06-24-2013, 11:19 AM
I'm home sick from work. What else am I going to do for amusement?

Tend to your lawn, obviously.

gumby74
06-24-2013, 11:24 AM
Tend to your lawn, obviously. I've given up for the time being. I'll take it back up in the fall. Sorry, but the discovery of a reverse troll is truly ground breaking. I had to share my discovery.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:24 AM
Why Romo in front of Flacco?I know he won the SB but to me Flacco regular season are just inexcusable. Never threw over 4,000 or 25 td's to me Romo is just more dangerous.

Rudyy
06-24-2013, 11:38 AM
I know he won the SB but to me Flacco regular season are just inexcusable. Never threw over 4,000 or 25 td's to me Romo is just more dangerous.Don't we usually excuse Eli's regular season performances though?

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 11:45 AM
Don't we usually excuse Eli's regular season performances though?Eli has played great when going against the Cowboys, he has 2 sb's, almost threw for 5,000 and before this season threw for 4,000 yards three straight seasons and threw for 25 or more TD's 4 times. Eli tome has better understanding of playing the quarterback position. Plus he beat Romo's best team to get to the SB. Just haven't seen Flacco as impressive in the regular season. Heck I think Eli has a better understanding of the game then Romo also.

Delicreep
06-24-2013, 11:51 AM
Don't we usually excuse Eli's regular season performances though?

We call them "pre-playoff" games.

gumby74
06-24-2013, 12:04 PM
We call them "pre-playoff" games. Personally, I think regular season games are just as important. Maybe, not on an individual basis as the number of games you play is longer, but if you have a terrible regular season, there is no playoffs.

Eliscruzzz
06-24-2013, 05:55 PM
Personally, I think regular season games are just as important. Maybe, not on an individual basis as the number of games you play is longer, but if you have a terrible regular season, there is no playoffs.+1

EliDaMANning
06-25-2013, 08:40 AM
Too bad Eli is the only QB who needs to play flawlessly in order for his team to make the playoffs. Can't squeeze in a backup and win 11 games like the system Patriots, or throw 6 TD like Flynn for the system packers. The amount of burden placed on his shoulders to perform perfectly every week can take a toll. There's a reason why people on here say they hold their breath when Eli makes a pass. It's not because he's prone to mistakes, it's because if he makes one, the likelihood of us winning the game drops dramatically.

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 08:44 AM
Right so guys like Rodgers need a team to be perfect for him to look good? Brady too? All of the op QB's have had their share of change of tools to use on offense and have also not had the best OL's or defenses.

GameTime
06-25-2013, 08:48 AM
Too bad Eli is the only QB who needs to play flawlessly in order for his team to make the playoffs. Can't squeeze in a backup and win 11 games like the system Patriots, or throw 6 TD like Flynn for the system packers. The amount of burden placed on his shoulders to perform perfectly every week can take a toll. There's a reason why people on here say they hold their breath when Eli makes a pass. It's not because he's prone to mistakes, it's because if he makes one, the likelihood of us winning the game drops dramatically.
wow...you really believe that BS.....

EliDaMANning
06-25-2013, 09:10 AM
Right so guys like Rodgers need a team to be perfect for him to look good? Brady too? All of the op QB's have had their share of change of tools to use on offense and have also not had the best OL's or defenses.You clearly missed the point. Have the Giants won a game where Eli throws 1 TD and 3 INT or 0 TD and 2 INT?

The Packers and Patriots have and they both came in championship games.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 09:25 AM
You clearly missed the point. Have the Giants won a game where Eli throws 1 TD and 3 INT or 0 TD and 2 INT?The Packers and Patriots have and they both came in championship games.Somewhat against the Cowboys last season. 15/29, 192 yards. 0 TD's and 1 INT.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 09:27 AM
Also against the Skins where Victor had that 77 yarder at the end. 1 TD, 2INTS.

Flip Empty
06-25-2013, 09:39 AM
Have the Giants won a game where Eli throws 1 TD and 3 INT or 0 TD and 2 INT?
Those are incredibly specific qualifiers, but you may have a point here. While the Giants have won games like that, they all came earlier in Eli's career:

Week 13, 2005: 0 TDs/2 INTs vs Dallas. Giants win 17-10
Week 14, 2005: 1 TD/3 INTs @ Philadelphia. Giants win 26-23
Week 16, 2007: 0 TDs/2 INTs @ Buffalo. Giants win 38-21

Nothing since.

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 09:40 AM
Lol. You where just given two example from this past season.

Flip Empty
06-25-2013, 09:44 AM
Lol. You where just given two example from this past season.
Neither match his criteria.

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 09:46 AM
So it has to be 1-3 or 0-2? So 0-1 is out? This is ridiculous. The point is that they have won games without Eli being on that day.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 09:57 AM
Neither match his criteria.They have to match exactly?

EliDaMANning
06-25-2013, 10:01 AM
Those are incredibly specific qualifiers, but you may have a point here. While the Giants have won games like that, they all came earlier in Eli's career:

Week 13, 2005: 0 TDs/2 INTs vs Dallas. Giants win 17-10
Week 14, 2005: 1 TD/3 INTs @ Philadelphia. Giants win 26-23
Week 16, 2007: 0 TDs/2 INTs @ Buffalo. Giants win 38-21

Nothing since.Thanks. 2007-2008 was the last time they had a legit defense. Makes sense, thanks for the info.

blueomaha
06-25-2013, 10:14 AM
much as i dislike Kurt, i'll give him a pass....

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 10:23 AM
What about in 2010 when they won 31-7 and Eli had 0 TD's with 1 interception?

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:45 AM
He had 193 yards passing and was barely over 50% when we KILLED the Niners last year.
Then he played lousy in the Wsshington game the next week.
Then he played even worse the next week at Dallas and we won.
Three straight wins, three poor to mediocre games by Eli.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:21 AM
He had 193 yards passing and was barely over 50% when we KILLED the Niners last year.
***15/28 for 193 1 TD 0 INT 87 rating
Then he played lousy in the Wsshington game the next week.
***26/40 for 337 1 TD 2 INT 78 rating and of course, the one TD was the Cruz pass
Then he played even worse the next week at Dallas and we won.
***15/29 for 192 0 TD 1 INT 58 rating
Three straight wins, three poor to mediocre games by Eli.

Now I put the stats in to both help your argument and to point out that the 1st of those three games was against one of the best defenses in the entire league.
The other two games would, or at least should, fit in with a definition of mediocre or lousy games statistically.

All three were wins.

GameTime
06-25-2013, 11:22 AM
wow....all games are not won or lost by the a team's QB...

what a revelation......

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 01:03 PM
lmao at the "poor to medeocre games"...

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 01:45 PM
Now I put the stats in to both help your argument and to point out that the 1st of those three games was against one of the best defenses in the entire league.
The other two games would, or at least should, fit in with a definition of mediocre or lousy games statistically.

All three were wins.
I was responding to a poster who claimed that Eli had to be flawless for us to make the playoffs.
I showed 3 consecutive games where he was far from flawless and we won.
And if you think Eli didn't play poorly in the Washington game you are wrong.
He threw one interception in the hands of a defender that he was looking right at, just a few yards away.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 01:51 PM
lmao at the "poor to medeocre games"...
By the standards of a 2 time SB MVP as you guys like to refer to him as?

Yes. Barely 50% and less than 200 yards is far below his supposed standards.
But the ultimate point is that Eli does NOT have to play "flawlessly" as one poster (who I was responding to) suggested.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 01:56 PM
oh, you mean when we were up 24-0 or whatever it was by halftime vs SF? he had like 180 yds by half and threw 5x the 2nd half or something.
the washington game was not medeocre.
the 2nd dallas game, maybe. but again, kinda hard to justify ur stance when we were up multiple scores by half and clearly had gone into conservative mode...until dallas mounted their lil comeback. but in those three games, eli was as pivotal as any player in the win so yeah, medeocre FF #s. no way will i claim he played poorly when he led the offense to a blow out win vs SF, kept us in the washington game with the GW TD, or the dallas game where we were up like 17-0 before the 1rst. the situations did not require the passing game to be on or continue on.

a game like the pitt game is completely different. he played poorly, and we needed him to play well. the d did its job for the most part. eli did not do his. cant say the same thing at all for the SF and Washington games.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 01:59 PM
oh, you mean when we were up 24-0 or whatever it was by halftime vs SF? he had like 180 yds by half and threw 5x the 2nd half or something.
the washington game was not medeocre.
the 2nd dallas game, maybe. but again, kinda hard to justify ur stance when we were up multiple scores by half and clearly had gone into conservative mode...until dallas mounted their lil comeback. but in those three games, eli was as pivotal as any player in the win so yeah, medeocre FF #s. no way will i claim he played poorly when he led the offense to a blow out win vs SF, kept us in the washington game with the GW TD, or the dallas game where we were up like 17-0 before the 1rst. the situations did not require the passing game to be on or continue on.

a game like the pitt game is completely different. he played poorly, and we needed him to play well. the d did its job for the most part. eli did not do his. cant say the same thing at all for the SF and Washington games.


You really need to follow along.
A poster suggested that Eli had to play "flawlessly" for us to win.
I pointed out three games in a row last year where we won against tough opponents, and our QB played far from "flawlessly".

So there really are other good players on our team, even on defense, which that particular poster seems to have a tough time grasping.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 02:46 PM
i have been. your claiming eli had medeocre to poor games. i could careless if one person thinks he has to play flawlessly to win.

he didnt play poorly vs SF, or Washington. Dallas rd 2, kinda. None compare to an actual representation of ur stance which has yet to be cited oddly enough, the Pitt game. he was putrid that game and if he were avg., we woulda won that game.

just bc he throws an int or 2 doesnt mean he had a poor game. just bc he doesnt have a td in a game doesnt mean he played poorly. well it does, if you have a mind that confuses FF #'s as the barometer of good play.

for someone who claims he doesnt care about stats, lead the team to wins, u sure have a hard time applying the same logic to a certain NYG QB that you do EVERY OTHER QB throughout time lol

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 02:56 PM
I was responding to a poster who claimed that Eli had to be flawless for us to make the playoffs.
I showed 3 consecutive games where he was far from flawless and we won.
And if you think Eli didn't play poorly in the Washington game you are wrong.
He threw one interception in the hands of a defender that he was looking right at, just a few yards away.

Soooo...did you read my post?

I agreed with you on both the Washington game and the Dallas game.

I only pointed out the the SF game, his best of the three, was against one of the top D'd in the league

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
i have been. your claiming eli had medeocre to poor games. i could careless if one person thinks he has to play flawlessly to win.

he didnt play poorly vs SF, or Washington. Dallas rd 2, kinda. None compare to an actual representation of ur stance which has yet to be cited oddly enough, the Pitt game. he was putrid that game and if he were avg., we woulda won that game.

just bc he throws an int or 2 doesnt mean he had a poor game. just bc he doesnt have a td in a game doesnt mean he played poorly. well it does, if you have a mind that confuses FF #'s as the barometer of good play.

for someone who claims he doesnt care about stats, lead the team to wins, u sure have a hard time applying the same logic to a certain NYG QB that you do EVERY OTHER QB throughout time lol

yes but my post was a response to another posters comments. He stated that we can't win without Eli playing flawlessly. I cited 3 games last year where that wasn't true. (there were many more actually)
So I win. Your comments are irrelevant.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 03:37 PM
Soooo...did you read my post?

I agreed with you on both the Washington game and the Dallas game.

I only pointed out the the SF game, his best of the three, was against one of the top D'd in the league
I always read your fine posts.
None of those 3 games were "flawless". Which was the context of my post.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 03:41 PM
yes but my post was a response to another posters comments. He stated that we can't win without Eli playing flawlessly. I cited 3 games last year where that wasn't true. (there were many more actually)
So I win. Your comments are irrelevant.again, i could careless what u spend pages trying to refute bc of something ONE poster said. U made the claim he played poorly vs SF, Washington, and Dallas. u guys spend pages and pages convering on how terrible eli fans are lmfao when maybe, there are 1 or 2 posters at most that actually fit the criteria u guys cwy about non stop.

He didn't. u made a poor, incorrect statement. and, u seem to not be able to seperate the way u claim to judge qbs and the way u actually do. u claimed bc of an int he threw directly to the defender, he had a poor game...no....he had a poor throw on that int. NOT a poor game. Almost 300 yds, almost 60% completion, and the GW TD...if thats a poor to medeocre game, every qb in the league aside from maybe Brady and Rodgers "are poor to medeocre" QBs...

VS SF, we were blanking them. ironically, that game was the game that snapped the 2nd all time streak of games in a row of at least 200 yds. He had like 180 by halftime...we threw it a handful of times the 2nd half lol. There is only ONE way someone could claim eli played poorly that game, if a person uses FF #s as his barometer...which if the shoe fits...and it fits u

Vs Dallas, again, we were up multiple scores early. we were on our way to completely blowing them out. Eli didnt have a great, even good game. Def. not "poor" though. But of the 3 u used to support ur claim, the Dallas game makes the most sense.

Lol, the sad thing, you actually do believe there are "winners and losers" on here for sharing their opinion...completely pathetic...

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 03:42 PM
Wouldn't say he played bad against the 49ers but the running game was more impressive. It was a long time since any RB ran for over 100 yards on that team in their house.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 03:50 PM
again, i could careless what u spend pages trying to refute bc of something ONE poster said. U made the claim he played poorly vs SF, Washington, and Dallas. u guys spend pages and pages convering on how terrible eli fans are lmfao when maybe, there are 1 or 2 posters at most that actually fit the criteria u guys cwy about non stop.

He didn't. u made a poor, incorrect statement. and, u seem to not be able to seperate the way u claim to judge qbs and the way u actually do. u claimed bc of an int he threw directly to the defender, he had a poor game...no....he had a poor throw on that int. NOT a poor game. Almost 300 yds, almost 60% completion, and the GW TD...if thats a poor to medeocre game, every qb in the league aside from maybe Brady and Rodgers "are poor to medeocre" QBs...

VS SF, we were blanking them. ironically, that game was the game that snapped the 2nd all time streak of games in a row of at least 200 yds. He had like 180 by halftime...we threw it a handful of times the 2nd half lol. There is only ONE way someone could claim eli played poorly that game, if a person uses FF #s as his barometer...which if the shoe fits...and it fits u

Vs Dallas, again, we were up multiple scores early. we were on our way to completely blowing them out. Eli didnt have a great, even good game. Def. not "poor" though. But of the 3 u used to support ur claim, the Dallas game makes the most sense.

Lol, the sad thing, you actually do believe there are "winners and losers" on here for sharing their opinion...completely pathetic...

Did he play flawlessly?
Did we win?
Unless both answers are yes. My point in response to another poster is correct. (that's the "I win" part)

Please don't respond with another 4 paragraphs of text speak. I honestly can't take it anymore.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 03:52 PM
Wouldn't say he played bad against the 49ers but the running game was more impressive. It was a long time since any RB ran for over 100 yards on that team in their house.
I didn't say he played poorly. I said he played either poor or mediocre in those 3 games. In that game he was mediocre. Even though he threw to ball right in the hands of a defender at the goal line that he dropped.

pino
06-25-2013, 03:52 PM
I don't have a problem with his ranking. Ranking Eli at #6 means he likes what he sees out of Eli. It wouldn't change my opinion if he placed Eli at #4.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:01 PM
He had 193 yards passing and was barely over 50% when we KILLED the Niners last year.
Then he played lousy in the Wsshington game the next week.
Then he played even worse the next week at Dallas and we won.
Three straight wins, three poor to mediocre games by Eli.sure seems like u say he played poorly those 3 games. why include the SF game then?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:03 PM
By the standards of a 2 time SB MVP as you guys like to refer to him as?

Yes. Barely 50% and less than 200 yards is far below his supposed standards.
But the ultimate point is that Eli does NOT have to play "flawlessly" as one poster (who I was responding to) suggested.and here u single the SF game again when I questiong the "poor to medeocre" games...u sure ur not just trying to change ur stance up a tad? bc thats what it is. Medeocre vs SF is still inaccurate. id bet that eli prob had one of the better games SF allowed all yr vs QBs in terms of offensive success.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:06 PM
oh i forgot. anything more than 4 sentences from me and u claim ur brain goes blank. no need for response bc intelligent debate is impossible when a person has issues reading a couple paragraphs. wasnt even attempting to debate. u wont concede ur statement, ull just end up changing the parameters of why the comment was made into a favorable scenario for you to claim the statements, although inaccurate, were actually accurate. no sweat of my skin. peace.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 04:07 PM
sure seems like u say he played poorly those 3 games. why include the SF game then?
Read post #106.
You either say something or you don't. How does one "seem" to say something?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:09 PM
He had 193 yards passing and was barely over 50% when we KILLED the Niners last year.

so when u wrote that, u werent trying to imply it was a poor game? even medeocre is inaccurate so that covers that base too. its all good. i dont really care. just, if those games were poor to medeocre games, every qb in the history of the game has had poor to medeocre games over the course of a season. seems moronic to try and single eli out for that, which isnt to say what u've done in this thread (just every other one).

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:11 PM
and im sorry. i thought i read u make the asinine statement a few times now. so, a QB throws a poor pass to a defender. that means the qb had a poor game??? lol ok. didnt know that. I thought a QB usually had something like 30 attempts in a game. didnt know one errant decision/pass was all that was needed to determine a poor outing.

so on the converse side, if eli throws 1 beautiful pass that beats great coverage, then that warrants a good/great game? fine by me. lets stick with ur reasoning/logic and use it consistently for every qb...

lol like thatll happen.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 04:19 PM
He had 193 yards passing and was barely over 50% when we KILLED the Niners last year.

so when u wrote that, u werent trying to imply it was a poor game? even medeocre is inaccurate so that covers that base too. its all good. i dont really care. just, if those games were poor to medeocre games, every qb in the history of the game has had poor to medeocre games over the course of a season. seems moronic to try and single eli out for that, which isnt to say what u've done in this thread (just every other one).
I was implying that he had 193 yards, was barely over 50% and we killed the Niners.
Why is this hard for you?

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 04:19 PM
and im sorry. i thought i read u make the asinine statement a few times now. so, a QB throws a poor pass to a defender. that means the qb had a poor game??? lol ok. didnt know that. I thought a QB usually had something like 30 attempts in a game. didnt know one errant decision/pass was all that was needed to determine a poor outing.

so on the converse side, if eli throws 1 beautiful pass that beats great coverage, then that warrants a good/great game? fine by me. lets stick with ur reasoning/logic and use it consistently for every qb...

lol like thatll happen.

Let that be a lesson to you.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:21 PM
I was implying that he had 193 yards, was barely over 50% and we killed the Niners.
Why is this hard for you?do u want to see the rest of the post u made that statement in? lol. its pretty blatant u were trying to use the SF game as an example of eli playing poorly. which, can only be a premise if someone uses FF #'s to gauge a players level of play. sorry. but pretty obvious. other posters even remarked that it was a poor example lol. its all good. no more discussion needs to be made.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 04:23 PM
do u want to see the rest of the post u made that statement in? lol. its pretty blatant u were trying to use the SF game as an example of eli playing poorly. which, can only be a premise if someone uses FF #'s to gauge a players level of play. sorry. but pretty obvious. other posters even remarked that it was a poor example lol. its all good. no more discussion needs to be made.
You're obsessing.
Oh I'm sorry.....I mean ur obsessing.

Let it go.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 04:32 PM
Lol wow

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:34 PM
lmao. the obligatory "my position has been destroyed, comment on his grammar to restore ego" response. and, not really obsessing. far too easy to point out the inaccuracy in ur statement for me to obsess. u made a statement that shows ur flawed manner of judging eli, actually happens quite often. no need to respond. i feel i've made my point that he didnt play poorly vs SF or Washington, unless a person uses FF #s as their grading process, which is no sweat off my skin if thats what u wanna do. peace

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 04:39 PM
lmao. the obligatory "my position has been destroyed, comment on his grammar to restore ego" response. and, not really obsessing. far too easy to point out the inaccuracy in ur statement for me to obsess. u made a statement that shows ur flawed manner of judging eli, actually happens quite often. no need to respond. i feel i've made my point that he didnt play poorly vs SF or Washington, unless a person uses FF #s as their grading process, which is no sweat off my skin if thats what u wanna do. peaceI don't think he played poorly in SF, but he did play poorly vs. Washington.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:43 PM
I don't think he played poorly in SF, but he did play poorly vs. Washington.i dunno bout that. i disagree. did he make some poor decisions? yeah. i have a hard time describing that game as a poor performance when u take in the scope of who our opponent was (washington had pretty much been owning Eli the past couple years, and first matchup vs RG3) and when he threw a GW TD strike to win the game after the D yet again conceded a late go ahead score.

im not gonna sit here and claim it was this great performance either. but to say it was a poor game??? sorry, only way I could see that is if someones using FF as their barometer. But, to be fair Im gonna go look at the game again maybe i'm misremembering, but we had a couple rushing TDs that were possible bc the pass game got us down by the goal line, and the manner in which we moved the ball...yeah, 2 bad throws/decisions. not a poor game by any means imo. but let me go look at the game again. i dont have an issue in admitting im wrong, i do it often actually lol

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 04:47 PM
i dunno bout that. i disagree. did he make some poor decisions? yeah. i have a hard time describing that game as a poor performance when u take in the scope of who our opponent was (washington had pretty much been owning Eli the past couple years, and first matchup vs RG3) and when he threw a GW TD strike to win the game after the D yet again conceded a late go ahead score.im not gonna sit here and claim it was this great performance either. but to say it was a poor game??? sorry, only way I could see that is if someones using FF as their barometer. But, to be fair Im gonna go look at the game again maybe i'm misremembering, but we had a couple rushing TDs that were possible bc the pass game got us down by the goal line, and the manner in which we moved the ball...yeah, 2 bad throws/decisions. not a poor game by any means imo. but let me go look at the game again. i dont have an issue in admitting im wrong, i do it often actually lolI see it as poor because we could not move the ball at all. Eli was having a very hard time, as well as the rest of the offense. I actually had doubts of us winning that game after RG3 threw thr late TD pass in the 4th because we just could not get out offense going.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Also, that Washington game, Washington opened the game with a 17 play drive that imo, was pretty evident to the offense and eli saw the D was gonna struggle.

the 1rst ended with a 3rd and 1 35 yr strike to MB downfield that eli placed perfectly. eli also converted 3rd and 10 and 3rd and 11 in the redzone before AB2 needed a yrd for a TD.

yeah. go recheck the game. tell me u can claim eli played poorly. he made a couple bad decisions. the rest of the game, the offense was moving, and in large part thanks to the pass game. 2 of the 3 tds we scored were 1 yrd rushes that were possible bc of the pass game and converting 3rd and longs. there were a couple of missed throws, but theres a reason the entire D was up in arms thanking Eli and running up to him and thanking him and making post game comments about what an amazing qb eli is and how they wouldnt want any other guy. now i know the GW TD had an effect on that, but I doubt the reaction would be anywhere near what it was if eli played poorly. he made a ton of crucial throws that were they not made, we lose.

eli also led 2 min drives at the end of each half. to tie it @ 13 at halftime, and to win it at the end. the redskins didnt punt the entire first half. our FIRST stop was the 2nd half....

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 04:54 PM
I see it as poor because we could not move the ball at all. Eli was having a very hard time, as well as the rest of the offense. I actually had doubts of us winning that game after RG3 threw thr late TD pass in the 4th because we just could not get out offense going.
I hand him off to you Rudy.

Good luck with all of that!

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 04:56 PM
I see it as poor because we could not move the ball at all. Eli was having a very hard time, as well as the rest of the offense. I actually had doubts of us winning that game after RG3 threw thr late TD pass in the 4th because we just could not get out offense going.it wasnt til the end of the 3rd and half of the 4th that we really couldnt move the ball...we were moving the ball well most the day.

i guess its how one defines poor ultimately. no way would i characterize eli as poor that day. did he make a few poor throws??? every qb does every day. and, isnt it hypocritical to always claim when the offense is doing well not to attribute it solely to eli, but at the same time when the O is struggling, its bc "Eli played poorly"?

the pass game has truggled vs washington way worse than that game and its bc they continually are adding wrinkles where random guys are dropping back. 1 of those ints was a poor throw, the other 1 wasnt just on eli...

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 04:56 PM
Also, that Washington game, Washington opened the game with a 17 play drive that imo, was pretty evident to the offense and eli saw the D was gonna struggle.the 1rst ended with a 3rd and 1 35 yr strike to MB downfield that eli placed perfectly. eli also converted 3rd and 10 and 3rd and 11 in the redzone before AB2 needed a yrd for a TD.yeah. go recheck the game. tell me u can claim eli played poorly. he made a couple bad decisions. the rest of the game, the offense was moving, and in large part thanks to the pass game. 2 of the 3 tds we scored were 1 yrd rushes that were possible bc of the pass game and converting 3rd and longs. there were a couple of missed throws, but theres a reason the entire D was up in arms thanking Eli and running up to him and thanking him and making post game comments about what an amazing qb eli is and how they wouldnt want any other guy. now i know the GW TD had an effect on that, but I doubt the reaction would be anywhere near what it was if eli played poorly. he made a ton of crucial throws that were they not made, we lose.eli also led 2 min drives at the end of each half. to tie it @ 13 at halftime, and to win it at the end. the redskins didnt punt the entire first half. our FIRST stop was the 2nd half....Well it's not like they were going to scream at Eli had they lost lol. I don't have to re-check the game to make my claim. Eli had 300+ passing yards, but struggled to scored. It definitely was not a good game by any means.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:04 PM
i disagree. but to each their own. I'm watching the game rewind right now, and eli hadn't played poorly at all up to this point. dont take my word for it

http://www.giants.com/games-and-schedules/schedule.html and then click the washington game video. eli made 2 poor decisions. the 2nd int, the LB dropped back into the lane. But at that point, we had the lead and were trying to run the clock out (which we ended up throwing on 1rst down unfortunately) but, Banks explains why the 2nd Int wasn't necessarily a bad play by eli, but a good play by washington. the first int, eli overthrew. but yeah, the offense was moving the ball well, the run game scored a couple TDs. dont forget, we also had a hobbled Nicks that game.

yeah but i dunno, if ur unwilling to simply go back and recheck, dont know how much more this should even continue. i also dont recall any media talking head discussing anything aside from eli and his elite level of play following the game. i specifically rember first take the next day and how skip bayless loves RG3 and how he had to give credit to Eli and how eli outplayed rg3...

but yeah, to each their own. i feel 10000% confident in saying eli did not play poorly that game and dont know why a person could make the claim unless FF is the metric. We moved the ball at will, scored 2 rushing TDs primarily bc of the pass game (in 2011, we had 11 iirc rushing TDs from the 1 where it was a pass play that got us to the 1 or 2 and stopped just short)

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:06 PM
also, dunno how pretty games are gonna be vs division rivals. rarely are games clean by any qb when playing in the division. that kinda factors into it as well imo.

EliDaMANning
06-25-2013, 05:08 PM
again, i could careless what u spend pages trying to refute bc of something ONE poster said. U made the claim he played poorly vs SF, Washington, and Dallas. u guys spend pages and pages convering on how terrible eli fans are lmfao when maybe, there are 1 or 2 posters at most that actually fit the criteria u guys cwy about non stop.

He didn't. u made a poor, incorrect statement. and, u seem to not be able to seperate the way u claim to judge qbs and the way u actually do. u claimed bc of an int he threw directly to the defender, he had a poor game...no....he had a poor throw on that int. NOT a poor game. Almost 300 yds, almost 60% completion, and the GW TD...if thats a poor to medeocre game, every qb in the league aside from maybe Brady and Rodgers "are poor to medeocre" QBs...

VS SF, we were blanking them. ironically, that game was the game that snapped the 2nd all time streak of games in a row of at least 200 yds. He had like 180 by halftime...we threw it a handful of times the 2nd half lol. There is only ONE way someone could claim eli played poorly that game, if a person uses FF #s as his barometer...which if the shoe fits...and it fits u

Vs Dallas, again, we were up multiple scores early. we were on our way to completely blowing them out. Eli didnt have a great, even good game. Def. not "poor" though. But of the 3 u used to support ur claim, the Dallas game makes the most sense.

Lol, the sad thing, you actually do believe there are "winners and losers" on here for sharing their opinion...completely pathetic...Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:08 PM
i disagree. but to each their own. I'm watching the game rewind right now, and eli hadn't played poorly at all up to this point. dont take my word for ithttp://www.giants.com/games-and-schedules/schedule.html and then click the washington game video. eli made 2 poor decisions. the 2nd int, the LB dropped back into the lane. But at that point, we had the lead and were trying to run the clock out (which we ended up throwing on 1rst down unfortunately) but, Banks explains why the 2nd Int wasn't necessarily a bad play by eli, but a good play by washington. the first int, eli overthrew. but yeah, the offense was moving the ball well, the run game scored a couple TDs. dont forget, we also had a hobbled Nicks that game.yeah but i dunno, if ur unwilling to simply go back and recheck, dont know how much more this should even continue. i also dont recall any media talking head discussing anything aside from eli and his elite level of play following the game. i specifically rember first take the next day and how skip bayless loves RG3 and how he had to give credit to Eli and how eli outplayed rg3...but yeah, to each their own. i feel 10000% confident in saying eli did not play poorly that game and dont know why a person could make the claim unless FF is the metric. We moved the ball at will, scored 2 rushing TDs primarily bc of the pass game (in 2011, we had 11 iirc rushing TDs from the 1 where it was a pass play that got us to the 1 or 2 and stopped just short)You don't know why anybody can make a claim saying he played poorly? I just did in all my responses..You don't have to agree with them, but I did back up my claims.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:08 PM
so, 26/40 (65% completion), 337 yards, 1 td/2 ints....thats a poor game? well, granted i wish there werent 2 ints. but those ints speak more to two bad plays, than a poor performance, imo at least...

and again, if thats a poor performance, every qb in the league aside from Rodgers Brady and most of Peytons season were poor...

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:09 PM
also, dunno how pretty games are gonna be vs division rivals. rarely are games clean by any qb when playing in the division. that kinda factors into it as well imo.Division rivals are always tough, yes. I'm not going to hold that one game against him for the rest of his life and career.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:09 PM
rudy-u claimed it was a poor game bc we struggled to move the ball...we had like 500 yds total offense???i may have missed ur post where u detail why it was a poor game. ill go back and see if i missed that post right now.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:10 PM
so, 26/40 (65% completion), 337 yards, 1 td/2 ints....thats a poor game? well, granted i wish there werent 2 ints. but those ints speak more to two bad plays, than a poor performance, imo at least...and again, if thats a poor performance, every qb in the league aside from Rodgers Brady and most of Peytons season were poor...Those are statistics. I would rather look at the game tape. Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton have poor games too.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:11 PM
rudy-u claimed it was a poor game bc we struggled to move the ball...we had like 500 yds total offense???i may have missed ur post where u detail why it was a poor game. ill go back and see if i missed that post right now.You responded to the post, I'm not sure how you missed it. I basically said we struggled to score and Eli was having a hard time.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:13 PM
I see it as poor because we could not move the ball at all. Eli was having a very hard time, as well as the rest of the offense. I actually had doubts of us winning that game after RG3 threw thr late TD pass in the 4th because we just could not get out offense going.we moved the ball very well that game. what hurt us, was the one int eli threw when we were moving into their RZ. If u take away that 60 YD TD, we still had like 270 yards passing?

eh, i dunno. im not gonna sit here and tell u ur opinion is wrong i just disagree with it is all and thats all im tryin to do is present my opinion. i know it may look like more than that but thats just a response to the "i win" typical bs where an opinion is disqualified bc it doesnt match said posters opinion. I have no qualm actually debating the merits of a poor game, as long as thats whats being done, and not some attempt at instigating and devaluing...like this is me trying to actually debate u on the statement w.o being disrespectful...it doesnt play well here i guess?

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:15 PM
we moved the ball very well that game. what hurt us, was the one int eli threw when we were moving into their RZ. If u take away that 60 YD TD, we still had like 270 yards passing? eh, i dunno. im not gonna sit here and tell u ur opinion is wrong i just disagree with it is all and thats all im tryin to do is present my opinion. i know it may look like more than that but thats just a response to the "i win" typical bs where an opinion is disqualified bc it doesnt match said posters opinion. I have no qualm actually debating the merits of a poor game, as long as thats whats being done, and not some attempt at instigating and devaluing...like this is me trying to actually debate u on the statement w.o being disrespectful...it doesnt play well here i guess?Why would you think I was devaluing your opinion? Did I come off that way? I certainly don't think I did.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:15 PM
and i was incorrect on totaly yards. i went back and looked. we had like 45 yds rushing on like 20 attempts lol. when I factor that into the equation, i actually think it provides more merit for eli having a solid game, at least not a poor one.

we were able to score 27 points w/o a run game...imo, we moved the ball very well and really, the part of the offesne that couldnt wasnt the pass game...but the run game.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:16 PM
Why would you think I was devaluing your opinion? Did I come off that way? I certainly don't think I did.not u at all (lately). just saying how for some reason, me presenting my opinion usually sets off a few of the same posters.

edit- MS response to me in the thread to a comment that didnt even quote him but addressed a comment he and a few other posters made

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:22 PM
and, i'll ask this question. we had 2 1 yd rushing tds after the pass game got us down to there for both rushing scores...it just as easily could have been 26/40, 3tds and 2 ints...is that still a poor game? i hate to present it like this bc its almost me resorting to using FF metrics, but i am doing so to provide a point.

had those rushing tds been passing tds (which easily could have been if not for one more yard), zero chance anyone would try and claim it was a poor game by eli...i dunno how the claims being made as is to be honest (i disagree with the position).

plus, eli hit 7 diff wr's and spread the ball around. there was also a couple of deep passes that went incomplete bc Nicks was hobbled a bit.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 05:24 PM
and, i'll ask this question. we had 2 1 yd rushing tds after the pass game got us down to there for both rushing scores...it just as easily could have been 26/40, 3tds and 2 ints...is that still a poor game? i hate to present it like this bc its almost me resorting to using FF metrics, but i am doing so to provide a point. had those rushing tds been passing tds (which easily could have been if not for one more yard), zero chance anyone would try and claim it was a poor game by eli...i dunno how the claims being made as is to be honest (i disagree with the position).You can't use hypotheticals to make a point. He COULD have, but he didn't. I noticed you didn't put up Eli's QB rating, which was 78.9 I believe. Is that good to you?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 05:57 PM
You can't use hypotheticals to make a point. He COULD have, but he didn't. I noticed you didn't put up Eli's QB rating, which was 78.9 I believe. Is that good to you?thats kinda changing up the parameters of the discussion. im not saying he had this great game.

YOU are saying he had a poor game. so, let me ask YOU, is 78.9 poor? especially considering we won and he had a GW TD.


and its not really a hypothetical. the only reason i put it in those contexts is bc some posters need to be explained in that manner bc it seems FF is clouding their judgement. I personally dont see a difference in Eli completeing a 3rd and 10, and then 3rd and 11 to get us to the 1 yrd line, where AB2 runs it in, and Eli just throwing for the td on 3rd and 11. Wouldn't you say that it'd be illogical to seperate the two instances? My point ultimately being, TD #s and INT #s per game dont tell whether a player had a good game or not. It contributes to the grading but not the sole indicator. And the reason is, bc you have situations like that where two TDs were essentially due to the pass game that dont show up and represent the pass game. for all intents and purposes, it isnt even hypothetical really in the sense that he could have easily had 3 passing TDs, bc the pass plays were stopped at the 1.

theres pretty much a small minority that feel it was a poor game as of now as is. and the reason why, is if he were to have 3 passing TDs, no one could claim it was a poor outing. and that small minority claiming it was a poor game hold a poor stance imo bc that statement is 100% true. no way would a person dar claim it was a poor game were the 2 rushing tds that occurred bc of the pass game were instead attributed as passing tds.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 06:02 PM
thats kinda changing up the parameters of the discussion. im not saying he had this great game. YOU are saying he had a poor game. so, let me ask YOU, is 78.9 poor? especially considering we won and he had a GW TD.Those interceptions and missed throws is what hurt Eli that game. 78.9 by Eli standards is poor. Eli is not a 78.9 guy.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 06:04 PM
i edited my comment if u want to reread it

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 06:05 PM
Those interceptions and missed throws is what hurt Eli that game. 78.9 by Eli standards is poor. Eli is not a 78.9 guy.actually, u'd be surprised. eli is pretty much an 80-90 QB rating guy. has been his career. and its part why i dont feel stats tell near the whole story.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 06:07 PM
to put it in simpler context. eli was 65 % out of 40 attempts and accounted for 3 tds and 2 ints, including a GW TD.

he had some poor throws, no doubt. i cannot agree it was a poor outing. but, i guess we're going in circles bc we both have stated our opinions and tried to support it. not in the sense of "oh my opinion is better than urs" but we can just let people read our lil debate and come to their own conclusions.

edit- oh yeah, to add, the pass game/eli accounted for like 95% of our yards. 337 pass yards. run game was able to contribute a solid 48 yards or something lmfao...and, importantly, we won even with the lack of run game, and a D that wasnt able to force a punt until the 3rd quarter and that conceded a go ahead TD under 2 min to play...

nah. cant really see where ur coming from.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 06:12 PM
further, maybe it'd help if u could explain how we won then. because we certainly didnt get much help from the run aside from 2 1 yd TD runs. And the D forced some turnovers, but they also couldn't stop the redskins offense and force a punt until the 3rd quarter. the D also conceded a late go ahead TD.

so how did we win? was it ST? was it the D in you eyes?

bc if we won, and the run game struggled terribly, and the D struggled terribly, how were we able to pull out the win if Eli played poorly?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 06:17 PM
and, to further solidify my position, that it was a few poor throws and NOT a poor game, and I know this is a hypothetical, but, if eli didn't throw those 2 ints, which he obviously did, his QB rating would be 131.6

http://www.primecomputing.com/


now, i know that tech a hypothetical, but not really in the same regard because my premise is, eli made some poor throws. and, if u removed just two of those poor throws (he had several that game, not afraid to concede that), his QB rating is over 131...

so again, I ask you, did he play poorly, or just make a few poor throws??? its ok...u can do it...

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 06:27 PM
to put it in simpler context. eli was 65 % out of 40 attempts and accounted for 3 tds and 2 ints, including a GW TD.

he had some poor throws, no doubt. i cannot agree it was a poor outing. but, i guess we're going in circles bc we both have stated our opinions and tried to support it. not in the sense of "oh my opinion is better than urs" but we can just let people read our lil debate and come to their own conclusions.

edit- oh yeah, to add, the pass game/eli accounted for like 95% of our yards. 337 pass yards. run game was able to contribute a solid 48 yards or something lmfao...and, importantly, we won even with the lack of run game, and a D that wasnt able to force a punt until the 3rd quarter and that conceded a go ahead TD under 2 min to play...

nah. cant really see where ur coming from.
Might have had something to do with the 4 turnovers they created.

Roosevelt
06-25-2013, 06:32 PM
Serenity now.

http://aucklandlawn.co.nz/images/cutting-grass-with-scissors-2.jpg

ShakeandBake
06-25-2013, 06:54 PM
Serenity now.

http://aucklandlawn.co.nz/images/cutting-grass-with-scissors-2.jpg

insanity later

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:03 PM
and, to further solidify my position, that it was a few poor throws and NOT a poor game, and I know this is a hypothetical, but, if eli didn't throw those 2 ints, which he obviously did, his QB rating would be 131.6http://www.primecomputing.com/now, i know that tech a hypothetical, but not really in the same regard because my premise is, eli made some poor throws. and, if u removed just two of those poor throws (he had several that game, not afraid to concede that), his QB rating is over 131...so again, I ask you, did he play poorly, or just make a few poor throws??? its ok...u can do it...He played poorly.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:03 PM
further, maybe it'd help if u could explain how we won then. because we certainly didnt get much help from the run aside from 2 1 yd TD runs. And the D forced some turnovers, but they also couldn't stop the redskins offense and force a punt until the 3rd quarter. the D also conceded a late go ahead TD.so how did we win? was it ST? was it the D in you eyes? bc if we won, and the run game struggled terribly, and the D struggled terribly, how were we able to pull out the win if Eli played poorly?We won because of Eli, but he still played poorly.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:05 PM
actually, u'd be surprised. eli is pretty much an 80-90 QB rating guy. has been his career. and its part why i dont feel stats tell near the whole story.I think he'a 82 for his career. 78.9 is below is. That's poor.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:16 PM
Might have had something to do with the 4 turnovers they created.they created 3 of their 4 turnovers in the 2nd half...so no it didnt.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:17 PM
I think he'a 82 for his career. 78.9 is below is. That's poor.so 3 point drop in his career qb rating is poor? I'd wonder how many games u'd define as poor then...

Roosevelt
06-25-2013, 07:18 PM
He played poorly.

Thatagirl.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:18 PM
if that game is an example of a poor game by a QB, aside from rodgers, brady, and peyton most of the time, every qb in the league is having poor games week in week out....?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:19 PM
He played poorly.lol that was the best u could do in response to that aspect?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:20 PM
We won because of Eli, but he still played poorly.so we were able to win, with a non existent run game, a D that was unable to stop their offense the strong majority of the game, and a qb that played poorly??

i cant agree with that especially considering washington didnt play this terrible game. they certainly played well enough to win...?

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 07:33 PM
and, we all know how fickle the NYC media can be on Eli, as well as the sporting world. they've never been afraid to call eli out for a poor performance.


every single piece i've read, and i'm going through tons of diff articles afer week 7 from SI.com, huff post, nj.com, washpost.com, etc etc etc...not one player on either team had anything aside from saying elis the best qb in the game with the game on the line adn that he led the team to victory and that hes continuing his play from 2011.

keep in mind, we hadn't had that rough stretch yet. eli was performing at an exceptional level up to this point...i simply cannot fathom how 65% on 40 attempts for 337 yards with a GW td when the run game and D were non existant could be considered a poor game, by giants fans no less lol. that isnt to say giants fans shouldnt be rational...just claiming this was a poor game is irrational imo. like u need an example of a poor game by eli, i can accomadate you...this aint one

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:42 PM
so we were able to win, with a non existent run game, a D that was unable to stop their offense the strong majority of the game, and a qb that played poorly??i cant agree with that especially considering washington didnt play this terrible game. they certainly played well enough to win...?Where did I say others didn't play well either?

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:51 PM
if that game is an example of a poor game by a QB, aside from rodgers, brady, and peyton most of the time, every qb in the league is having poor games week in week out....?I said all of those QB's above have poor games as well. Why you decided to ignore that, I do not know.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:52 PM
so 3 point drop in his career qb rating is poor? I'd wonder how many games u'd define as poor then...By looking at his performance, it was poor. This particular stat is making my case. There have been times where Eli statistically wasn't great, but played great.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 07:53 PM
420, Do you skim through posts? I do, but it backfires because you don't get every detail. I've had to reiterate what I said numerous times. I would like to believe it's just you skimming through them.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:07 PM
420, Do you skim through posts? I do, but it backfires because you don't get every detail. I've had to reiterate what I said numerous times. I would like to believe it's just you skimming through them.no i've read ur posts and am well aware you claimed those 3 qbs i mention have poor games. my point was diff than what ur thinking; if this was a poor performance by a QB, pretty much every qb week in week out is having a poor game aside from those 3 qbs u mentioned...

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:09 PM
no i've read ur posts and am well aware you claimed those 3 qbs i mention have poor games. my point was diff than what ur thinking; if this was a poor performance by a QB, pretty much every qb week in week out is having a poor game aside from those 3 qbs u mentioned...Alright.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:09 PM
and u really havent made many supporting points. u claimed it was a lack of being able to move the ball that leads u to claim it was a poor game by eli...but we had like 380 total yards, 340 of which was eli and the passing game...so i dont really believe thats an accurate supporting point.

and u keep reiterate the same thing, when I'm questioning said thing if that makes sense. u keep on reiterating points i dont feel are valid. thats where the confusion lies. i've asked u several questions based on diff line of thinking and u havent really addressed any of them aside from "he played poorly."

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:12 PM
Where did I say others didn't play well either?im not saying u said that. i'm saying that based upon what i remember and going back and rechecking the game out.

our run game was non existant, and our d took til the 3rd period to force a punt and couldnt stop washington from moving the ball to save their lives.

how could we have won if eli played poorly then? washington just handed us the game?

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:13 PM
im not saying u said that. i'm saying that based upon what i remember and going back and rechecking the game out. our run game was non existant, and our d took til the 3rd period to force a punt and couldnt stop washington from moving the ball to save their lives. how could we have won if eli played poorly then? washington just handed us the game?I answered this.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:14 PM
and u really havent made many supporting points. u claimed it was a lack of being able to move the ball that leads u to claim it was a poor game by eli...but we had like 380 total yards, 340 of which was eli and the passing game...so i dont really believe thats an accurate supporting point.and u keep reiterate the same thing, when I'm questioning said thing if that makes sense. u keep on reiterating points i dont feel are valid. thats where the confusion lies. i've asked u several questions based on diff line of thinking and u havent really addressed any of them aside from "he played poorly."The only reason you feel I'm not supporting my claims is because you don't agree with them. I've supported my claims and discussed my argument. As did you. If we agree to disagree then okay.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:16 PM
i know its not like proof of anything, but maybe you could find an article or something that addresses my points/your points. theres gotta be analysts who felt that eli played poorly that game if he actually did...heck, analysts fault eli for some of his better performances. so maybe that'd help support ur stance more if a writer/football analyst looked at elis play in depth and decided he played poorly...because all I can find after searching "2012 Week 7 NYG vs Redskins Eli Manning performance review" are articles from a variety of sources that show all the quotes from redskins/giants players n coaches. shannahan said after the game that eli was one of the best qbs in the game and he proved it again today. rg3 said eli manning is the guy u want leading ur team. chris canty remarked he's continuing his level of play from 2011...

i cant really find anything that states he played even avg...

GameTime
06-25-2013, 08:18 PM
i know its not like proof of anything, but maybe you could find an article or something that addresses my points/your points. theres gotta be analysts who felt that eli played poorly that game if he actually did...heck, analysts fault eli for some of his better performances. so maybe that'd help support ur stance more if a writer/football analyst looked at elis play in depth and decided he played poorly...because all I can find after searching "2012 Week 7 NYG vs Redskins Eli Manning performance review" are articles from a variety of sources that show all the quotes from redskins/giants players n coaches. shannahan said after the game that eli was one of the best qbs in the game and he proved it again today. rg3 said eli manning is the guy u want leading ur team. chris canty remarked he's continuing his level of play from 2011...

i cant really find anything that states he played even avg...
you guys really care that much about a game that already happened 8 or so months ago that you want to look up articles to prove a ****ing point???!!!

wow.....you're ****ing nuts!!!

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:18 PM
I answered this."eli played poorly but still lead us to a victory" or something along those lines...sorry not meaning to be rude, but thats hardly what i'd consider a valid, logical argument...

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:19 PM
you guys really care that much about a game that already happened 8 or so months ago that you want to look up articles to prove a ****ing point???!!!wow.....you're ****ing nuts!!!It's a message board. It's the offseason. Relaxxxxx..

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:19 PM
"eli played poorly but still lead us to a victory" or something along those lines...sorry not meaning to be rude, but thats hardly what i'd consider a valid, logical argument...Well that's your loss.

GameTime
06-25-2013, 08:20 PM
It's a message board. It's the offseason. Relaxxxxx..
Yeah....I get it. Still......its nuts....

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:21 PM
you guys really care that much about a game that already happened 8 or so months ago that you want to look up articles to prove a ****ing point???!!!

wow.....you're ****ing nuts!!!i find someone jumping in on an discussion two people are having with nothing to add, and because its not what they find interesting or want to talk about, go "your ****ing nuts"...you realize this is a giants MB where people come to discuss things about the giants? a claim was made eli played poorly vs washington. i disagreed. and felt like for once, a person was entering into a debate without trying to put a persons character down...guess we can mark that checked off thanks to you! way to go, you brought the aspect of the convo we couldnt do without!


****off

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:21 PM
i know its not like proof of anything, but maybe you could find an article or something that addresses my points/your points. theres gotta be analysts who felt that eli played poorly that game if he actually did...heck, analysts fault eli for some of his better performances. so maybe that'd help support ur stance more if a writer/football analyst looked at elis play in depth and decided he played poorly...because all I can find after searching "2012 Week 7 NYG vs Redskins Eli Manning performance review" are articles from a variety of sources that show all the quotes from redskins/giants players n coaches. shannahan said after the game that eli was one of the best qbs in the game and he proved it again today. rg3 said eli manning is the guy u want leading ur team. chris canty remarked he's continuing his level of play from 2011...i cant really find anything that states he played even avg...It's MY opinion. I'm basing this from what I have seen. I'm not about to waste my time looking for "evidence" you're just going to disagree with. I gave you my position, I backed up my claims. You disagree, that's fine. Let's end it that way.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:22 PM
Well that's your loss.lol i think we've gone full circle. agree to disagree. did not mean to put u or ur opinion down, just enjoy trying to present my opinion. later.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:23 PM
It's MY opinion. I'm basing this from what I have seen. I'm not about to waste my time looking for "evidence" you're just going to disagree with. I gave you my position, I backed up my claims. You disagree, that's fine. Let's end it that way.i understand completely. i just thought it'd help to present more points or whatever thats all. i know when i make a claim if i can i try and find some supporting arguments, not to say ur opinion needs that or anything i just thought itd help the discussion out because i still cant really relate in any way with the opinion it was a poor game.

i try and see the side of different points of views as best i can and as often i can, and im trying to do so here...i just cant. eh. agree to disagree

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:25 PM
Yeah....I get it. Still......its nuts....Cool.

Rudyy
06-25-2013, 08:25 PM
i understand completely. i just thought it'd help to present more points or whatever thats all. i know when i make a claim if i can i try and find some supporting arguments, not to say ur opinion needs that or anything i just thought itd help the discussion out because i still cant really relate in any way with the opinion it was a poor game.i try and see the side of different points of views as best i can and as often i can, and im trying to do so here...i just cant. eh. agree to disagreeIt's just subjective really.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 08:26 PM
It's just subjective really.it always is lol.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 08:46 PM
if that game is an example of a poor game by a QB, aside from rodgers, brady, and peyton most of the time, every qb in the league is having poor games week in week out....?


So you think a rating of 78 is common place?
Last year, Ben had 2 games where he had a rating of 78 or lower. Rivers had 4. However, you want to slice it, Eli is not up to his peers statistically.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 08:48 PM
"eli played poorly but still lead us to a victory" or something along those lines...sorry not meaning to be rude, but thats hardly what i'd consider a valid, logical argument...

No, that statement makes PERFECT sense. Just like Tebow. He certainly lead his team to victory all those times, but he still played like crap.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 09:28 PM
So you think a rating of 78 is common place?
Last year, Ben had 2 games where he had a rating of 78 or lower. Rivers had 4. However, you want to slice it, Eli is not up to his peers statistically.

Hey 420...follow along here.

Gumby,

For the sake of this post, I am going to concede your point that Eli is "not up to his peers statistically".

Why is Eli ranked 6th by Warner?

There must be literally 5 to 10 QB's who would have better statistics than Eli...why are they not ranked 6-15 and Eli ranked 16th?

I'm not asking for your opinion (yet)...I am asking you why Warner, and a host of other talking heads see Eli in this general ranking

GameTime
06-25-2013, 09:28 PM
i find someone jumping in on an discussion two people are having with nothing to add, and because its not what they find interesting or want to talk about, go "your ****ing nuts"...you realize this is a giants MB where people come to discuss things about the giants? a claim was made eli played poorly vs washington. i disagreed. and felt like for once, a person was entering into a debate without trying to put a persons character down...guess we can mark that checked off thanks to you! way to go, you brought the aspect of the convo we couldnt do without!


****off
oh just shut up.........its a football conversation not the UN.....

gumby74
06-25-2013, 09:38 PM
Hey 420...follow along here.

Gumby,

For the sake of this post, I am going to concede your point that Eli is "not up to his peers statistically".

Why is Eli ranked 6th by Warner?

There must be literally 5 to 10 QB's who would have better statistics than Eli...why are they not ranked 6-15 and Eli ranked 16th?

I'm not asking for your opinion (yet)...I am asking you why Warner, and a host of other talking heads see Eli in this general ranking

Why 6th? I'm not Warner. Asking me to play mind reader is a lose lose situation. But I will say this. Stats play a important role. Post season success plays an important role. And finally, continuity/experience plays an important role. You have guys like Kapernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Luck, Ryan, etc who are up and coming but don't have the experience yet for anyone to fully grasp what they bring to the table. Is it very possible that Eli drops down to 10th in a few years? Absolutely.

It's also important to note that this is public perception we're talking about also. Some people only need a year to make judgement. Some people may need more.

Edit: And why drag 420 into this? The way you're addressing him, it's not exactly flattering.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 09:43 PM
Why 6th? I'm not Warner. Asking me to play mind reader is a lose lose situation. But I will say this. Stats play a important role. Post season success plays an important role. And finally, continuity/experience plays an important role. You have guys like Kapernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Luck, Ryan, etc who are up and coming but don't have the experience yet for anyone to fully grasp what they bring to the table. Is it very possible that Eli drops down to 10th in a few years? Absolutely.

It's also important to note that this is public perception we're talking about also. Some people only need a year to make judgement. Some people may need more.

The fact that you refuse to even speculate on why so many people rank Eli in that area comes across as little more than avoidance. You know why; I know why...I could ask my dog if you would like, but she's gonna get it right.

But I'll play along for a moment: Where would you rank Eli?

gumby74
06-25-2013, 09:45 PM
Why 6th? I'm not Warner. Asking me to play mind reader is a lose lose situation. But I will say this. Stats play a important role. Post season success plays an important role. And finally, continuity/experience plays an important role. You have guys like Kapernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Luck, Ryan, etc who are up and coming but don't have the experience yet for anyone to fully grasp what they bring to the table. Is it very possible that Eli drops down to 10th in a few years? Absolutely.

It's also important to note that this is public perception we're talking about also. Some people only need a year to make judgement. Some people may need more.

Edit: And why drag 420 into this? The way you're addressing him, it's not exactly flattering.


The fact that you refuse to even speculate on why so many people rank Eli in that area comes across as little more than avoidance. You know why; I know why...I could ask my dog if you would like, but she's gonna get it right.

But I'll play along for a moment: Where would you rank Eli?

Did you read what I wrote? I did speculate. I just won't say that i know exactly what Warner is thinking.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 09:52 PM
Actually...you didn't speculate as much as avoid the question. Unless your answer was "experience and continuity", which is just ridiculous.

But let's get back to you: where would Gumby rank Eli?

Oh...420? In no way was I trying to insult you. I was saying follow along on how ridiculously easy it corner Gumby.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Actually...you didn't speculate as much as avoid the question. Unless your answer was "experience and continuity", which is just ridiculous.

But let's get back to you: where would Gumby rank Eli?

Oh...420? In no way was I trying to insult you. I was saying follow along on how ridiculously easy it corner Gumby.


Actually...you didn't speculate as much as avoid the question. Unless your answer was "experience and continuity", which is just ridiculous.

But let's get back to you: where would Gumby rank Eli?

Oh...420? In no way was I trying to insult you. I was saying follow along on how ridiculously easy it corner Gumby.

Avoidance? I think not. If I were to play Warner for a second, it would be nothing but what I said above in different wording. I have no idea what sort of answer you're looking for.

Warner: "Let's see. Eli has 2 SBs, so he definitely has got what it takes to be a great QB. But, his regular season stats really aren't good compared to his peers. I like Kap, Wilson, and RG3. I also like Luck. They all have potential to be much better. But at this point it's much too small a sample size. Rodgers, Peyton, Brees, and Brady clearly are in a league of their own, so I guess that leaves Ben and Eli.".

Edit: Where would I put him? 6th.

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 10:06 PM
a more pertinent question gumby, do u feel eli played poorly week 7 in the win over washington?

and delicreep, its ok if u wanna insult me anyways, everyone else does. and besides, u know how i think of ur posting ability anyways. u usually knock it out of the park. no need to explain, I was following along and didnt take it as an insult at all...

giantsfan420
06-25-2013, 10:09 PM
So you think a rating of 78 is common place?
Last year, Ben had 2 games where he had a rating of 78 or lower. Rivers had 4. However, you want to slice it, Eli is not up to his peers statistically.

no. i dont think 65% out of 40 attempts for 337 and a GW TD, while accounting for each of the 3 tds (pass plays got us down to the 1 or 2 yd on both rushing tds) while the run game was unable to contribute anything and a D that couldnt force a punt until the middle of the 3rd is common place, and, its why qb rating is such a flawed stat and used erroneously so often, usually by individuals who try to use it against eli in the manner u've done here.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:10 PM
a more pertinent question gumby, do u feel eli played poorly week 7 in the win over washington?

and delicreep, its ok if u wanna insult me anyways, everyone else does. and besides, u know how i think of ur posting ability anyways. u usually knock it out of the park. no need to explain, I was following along and didnt take it as an insult at all...
As I just explained to Rudy on FB....arguing with you is like arguing with a 4 year old who keeps responding...Why?.
Nothing good can ever come from it.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:13 PM
Avoidance? I think not. If I were to play Warner for a second, it would be nothing but what I said above in different wording. I have no idea what sort of answer you're looking for.

Warner: "Let's see. Eli has 2 SBs, so he definitely has got what it takes to be a great QB. But, his regular season stats really aren't good compared to his peers. I like Kap, Wilson, and RG3. I also like Luck. They all have potential to be much better. But at this point it's much too small a sample size. Rodgers, Peyton, Brees, and Brady clearly are in a league of their own, so I guess that leaves Ben and Eli.".

Edit: Where would I put him? 6th.

OK...gonna need two post on this.

1) How can you rank Eli 6th when there are so many of his peers that are better than him statistically?
Please try and tell us all the specific qualities

gumby74
06-25-2013, 10:14 PM
a more pertinent question gumby, do u feel eli played poorly week 7 in the win over washington?

and delicreep, its ok if u wanna insult me anyways, everyone else does. and besides, u know how i think of ur posting ability anyways. u usually knock it out of the park. no need to explain, I was following along and didnt take it as an insult at all...

I actually don't remember the details of that game. But, after following the thread briefly, I don't think talking about one game proves anything about Eli - good or bad.

GameTime
06-25-2013, 10:14 PM
no. i dont think 65% out of 40 attempts for 337 and a GW TD, while accounting for each of the 3 tds (pass plays got us down to the 1 or 2 yd on both rushing tds) while the run game was unable to contribute anything and a D that couldnt force a punt until the middle of the 3rd is common place, and, its why qb rating is such a flawed stat and used erroneously so often, usually by individuals who try to use it against eli in the manner u've done here.
forgot the two picks or didnt you see that stat....
I love Eli as the NYGs QB but I look at the whole picture without biased glasses on....

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:17 PM
OK...gonna need two post on this.

1) How can you rank Eli 6th when there are so many of his peers that are better than him statistically?
Please try and tell us all the specific qualities
Stats are one contributor to the argument, but hardly the entire picture.
Its a great compliment to Eli that he is generally ranked 5th or 6th by most learned fans (including me). Because his numbers are generally not as good as many other QB's in today's game.
His ability to bring his team back late in games, and his performances in two playoff runs that ended in SB wins is what puts him where he is.

But the reality is, that game in and game out, he is not as productive as many others who are deservedly ranked below him.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:23 PM
Stats are one contributor to the argument, but hardly the entire picture.
Its a great compliment to Eli that he is generally ranked 5th or 6th by most learned fans (including me). Because his numbers are generally not as good as many other QB's in today's game.
His ability to bring his team back late in games, and his performances in two playoff runs that ended in SB wins is what puts him where he is.

But the reality is, that game in and game out, he is not as productive as many others who are deservedly ranked below him.

And this productivity week in and week out...exactly where has it gotten these QB's?

I don't mean that flippantly...I mean it literally. Take a look at say...the last 10 SB winners. Are you more likely to find a guy/team that was consistent week in and week out or are you more likely to find a guy/team that got hot at the right time?

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:27 PM
And this productivity week in and week out...exactly where has it gotten these QB's?

I don't mean that flippantly...I mean it literally. Take a look at say...the last 10 SB winners. Are you more likely to find a guy/team that was consistent week in and week out or are you more likely to find a guy/team that got hot at the right time?
Everyone does their best. More productivity is better than less productivity.
But teams win and lose games. Its the sum total of all the players performances, along with all the team dynamics that determine winners and losers.
Having said that.......more productivity at the QB position tends to lead to far more wins and championships than losses and missed playoffs.
But the QB, while important, is just one piece of the puzzle.

A great QB with a bad supporting cast may find it difficult to win. A decent QB with a great supporting cast can win.

Roosevelt
06-25-2013, 10:30 PM
you guys really care that much about a game that already happened 8 or so months ago that you want to look up articles to prove a ****ing point???!!!

wow.....you're ****ing nuts!!!


lmao.

Buddy333
06-25-2013, 10:34 PM
Think it goes Rodgers first. Then you can put Brady, Peyton, and Brees in any order from 2-4. After that the top ten can change every year.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 10:38 PM
OK...gonna need two post on this.

1) How can you rank Eli 6th when there are so many of his peers that are better than him statistically?
Please try and tell us all the specific qualities

You know that rankings - especially since they are all based on perception, are more than just statistics. Like I said before. Post season success comes into play. Consistency comes into play. How long you've been playing comes into play. I know you're just trying to lead me a long, but get to the point.

Roosevelt
06-25-2013, 10:40 PM
Why 6th? I'm not Warner. Asking me to play mind reader is a lose lose situation. But I will say this. Stats play a important role. Post season success plays an important role. And finally, continuity/experience plays an important role. You have guys like Kapernick, RG3, Russell Wilson, Luck, Ryan, etc who are up and coming but don't have the experience yet for anyone to fully grasp what they bring to the table. Is it very possible that Eli drops down to 10th in a few years? Absolutely.

It's also important to note that this is public perception we're talking about also. Some people only need a year to make judgement. Some people may need more.

Edit: And why drag 420 into this? The way you're addressing him, it's not exactly flattering.

Delicreep has somehow morphed into:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cinematical.com/media/2010/05/robinhood.jpg

Robin Hood, Men in Tights style.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:41 PM
Everyone does their best. More productivity is better than less productivity.
But teams win and lose games. Its the sum total of all the players performances, along with all the team dynamics that determine winners and losers.
Having said that.......more productivity at the QB position tends to lead to far more wins and championships than losses and missed playoffs.
But the QB, while important, is just one piece of the puzzle.

Look, just so it's clear to everyone...I am not saying Eli carries or carried the team. And I know you didn't infer that I was saying that.

What I am saying, and why Eli is generally ranked well above his statistical play should place him, is that ability elevate his game in the post-season.
How in the heck did Eli Manning end up being the QB with the most post season passing yards? It doesn't even make sense when I say it.
How the heck did he lead not one but two come from behind wins in SB's? And the oddest part was the second time, you knew it was coming!

Right now...there is no team in the league that would choose to give Eli and the Giants the ball with 2 minutes to go with only a 6 point lead.

I could go on and on, but I don't need to.

Now...is it 100%? Of course not. But consistency isn't either.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:41 PM
You know that rankings - especially since they are all based on perception, are more than just statistics. Like I said before. Post season success comes into play. Consistency comes into play. How long you've been playing comes into play. I know you're just trying to lead me a long, but get to the point.
I really like Delicreep, but I wish he would simply state his position with clarity instead of trying to ask these little questions with the hope that he will lead you to his view like a litigating attorney.

Roosevelt
06-25-2013, 10:44 PM
I really like Delicreep, but I wish he would simply state his position with clarity instead of trying to ask these little questions with the hope that he will lead you to his view like a litigating attorney.


+1

I never know what the hell his point is.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:46 PM
I really like Delicreep, but I wish he would simply state his position with clarity instead of trying to ask these little questions with the hope that he will lead you to his view like a litigating attorney.

Hey...I have made it clear that I will stand with the posters the Mousketeers have deemed unworthy. My chosen method is to basically force you to back up what is said.

Gotta be honest...Gumby is on his way out. You and Rosie answer questions with actual, well thought out answers.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:47 PM
Look, just so it's clear to everyone...I am not saying Eli carries or carried the team. And I know you didn't infer that I was saying that.

What I am saying, and why Eli is generally ranked well above his statistical play should place him, is that ability elevate his game in the post-season.
How in the heck did Eli Manning end up being the QB with the most post season passing yards? It doesn't even make sense when I say it.
How the heck did he lead not one but two come from behind wins in SB's? And the oddest part was the second time, you knew it was coming!

Right now...there is no team in the league that would choose to give Eli and the Giants the ball with 2 minutes to go with only a 6 point lead.

I could go on and on, but I don't need to.

Now...is it 100%? Of course not. But consistency isn't either.
His playoff performances do not deviate much from his average play during the season.
His 2011 playoff performances were especially strong but his 2007 performances were fine but hardly great.
The difference between the Giants teams of the 2011 and 2007 playoffs and all the other Giants performances, was the ability to disrupt on defense.
Eli has been a fine leader, but it wasn't him who knocked Tom Brady on his *** 19 times in SB 42.
What is special about Eli, is his late game performances both in the playoffs and during the regular season. If you cite the 2011 playoffs, then you also have to look at the 2005 and 2008 playoffs as well. Its generally very good, but its not all good in the post season for Eli.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:49 PM
Hey...I have made it clear that I will stand with the posters the Mousketeers have deemed unworthy. My chosen method is to basically force you to back up what is said.

Gotta be honest...Gumby is on his way out. You and Rosie answer questions with actual, well thought out answers.
You know what I'm talking about. Its cute of course, and I generally approve. But clear statements from you are generally at a premium.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 10:52 PM
Hey...I have made it clear that I will stand with the posters the Mousketeers have deemed unworthy. My chosen method is to basically force you to back up what is said.

Gotta be honest...Gumby is on his way out. You and Rosie answer questions with actual, well thought out answers.

Garbage in, garbage out. If you want a clear answer, ask clear questions.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:55 PM
His playoff performances do not deviate much from his average play during the season.
His 2011 playoff performances were especially strong but his 2007 performances were fine but hardly great.
The difference between the Giants teams of the 2011 and 2007 playoffs and all the other Giants performances, was the ability to disrupt on defense.
Eli has been a fine leader, but it wasn't him who knocked Tom Brady on his *** 19 times in SB 42.
What is special about Eli, is his late game performances both in the playoffs and during the regular season. If you cite the 2011 playoffs, then you also have to look at the 2005 and 2008 playoffs as well. Its generally very good, but its not all good in the post season for Eli.

I will gladly cite 2005 and 2008. You want to do the same for the QB's that are consistent? Might not want to waste your time looking, the answer is actually worse!

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:56 PM
Garbage in, garbage out. If you want a clear answer, ask clear questions.

Yeah...you have the garbage out part down. I think our business is largely done.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:57 PM
Garbage in, garbage out. If you want a clear answer, ask clear questions.
I don't think I've ever been accused of not stating my view with clarity. You should try it more often.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 10:57 PM
You know what I'm talking about. Its cute of course, and I generally approve. But clear statements from you are generally at a premium.

OK...but I don't think it will be as fun.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 10:59 PM
Yeah...you have the garbage out part down. I think our business is largely done.

I thought you were better than that. I'm disappointed.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 10:59 PM
OK...but I don't think it will be as fun.
Hah!!!
Perhaps not....at least for you.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:07 PM
His playoff performances do not deviate much from his average play during the season.
His 2011 playoff performances were especially strong but his 2007 performances were fine but hardly great.
The difference between the Giants teams of the 2011 and 2007 playoffs and all the other Giants performances, was the ability to disrupt on defense.
Eli has been a fine leader, but it wasn't him who knocked Tom Brady on his *** 19 times in SB 42.
What is special about Eli, is his late game performances both in the playoffs and during the regular season. If you cite the 2011 playoffs, then you also have to look at the 2005 and 2008 playoffs as well. Its generally very good, but its not all good in the post season for Eli.

Going for clarity here:

No game is judged on a more emotional basis than the SB. The great games and performances were more about moments and plays and drives that had impact. We are not going to bother laying out Eli's...you know them as well as I do. Some are in the discussion for best moment of all time.

Couldn't tell you a damn thing about BB last win, other than that pass he threw to win the game was amazing.

We don't process the big games on stats.

Ask anybody the top 5 things they remember about any SB, and it will be some emotional moment. Not a stat.

But let's say you looked at stats only...are you sure that Eli's games were not above average for a SB?

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 11:09 PM
Going for clarity here:

No game is judged on a more emotional basis than the SB. The great games and performances were more about moments and plays and drives that had impact. We are not going to bother laying out Eli's...you know them as well as I do. Some are in the discussion for best moment of all time.

Couldn't tell you a damn thing about BB last win, other than that pass he threw to win the game was amazing.

We don't process the big games on stats.

Ask anybody the top 5 things they remember about any SB, and it will be some emotional moment. Not a stat.

But let's say you looked at stats only...are you sure that Eli's games were not above average for a SB?
But emotion is, by definition, void of reason.

Die-Hard
06-25-2013, 11:11 PM
Please knock it off. These threads are excercises in pointless banter. No one ever truly wins, but at the same time, no one can stop bashing each other on a personal level. We've been leaving the threads open to see if things can get worked out, but all that does is prolong the inevitable

I'll never understand why any of this crap is so important to you guys that you cant walk away from it, but I wont judge.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 11:13 PM
Please knock it off. These threads are excercises in pointless banter. No one ever truly wins, but at the same time, no one can stop bashing each other on a personal level. We've been leaving the threads open to see if things can get worked out, but all that does is prolong the inevitable

I'll never understand why any of this crap is so important to you guys that you cant walk away from it, but I wont judge.
Who is bashing anyone?

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:13 PM
Please knock it off. These threads are excercises in pointless banter. No one ever truly wins, but at the same time, no one can stop bashing each other on a personal level. We've been leaving the threads open to see if things can get worked out, but all that does is prolong the inevitable

I'll never understand why any of this crap is so important to you guys that you cant walk away from it, but I wont judge.

I think you are overestimating how important it is to any of us.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 11:14 PM
I don't think I've ever been accused of not stating my view with clarity. You should try it more often.

Eli is inconsistent, inaccurate, and inefficient compared to his peers. I've maintained that since day 1. The problem is that that simple statement got misread in so many ways and so many times. If I made a statement, "I don't agree with X opinion, I actually think this, but I can see where they are coming from.", it got taken the wrong way. I made a statement very similar to Ruddy said recently, "Eli lead us to victory, but he wasn't the biggest reason why we won", again taken the wrong way. I can go on. Recently, I was asked what i thought of Eli - if I respected his game even though he may be ranked X in the league at his position. Now why on earth would i open up that can of worms? So, I declined. Politely, of course.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 11:15 PM
Actually Die-Hard, I think this thread as it stands now, people are talking Eli, and aren't butt hurt for a change.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:16 PM
But emotion is, by definition, void of reason.

QB rankings.
The HOF.

Why on earth do you believe that they are based on reason?
If I put up Randle Cunninghams stats and Troy Aikmen's stats blind and asked who was in the HOF, 99% of people would get it wrong.

MattMeyerBud
06-25-2013, 11:17 PM
Please knock it off. These threads are excercises in pointless banter. No one ever truly wins, but at the same time, no one can stop bashing each other on a personal level. We've been leaving the threads open to see if things can get worked out, but all that does is prolong the inevitable

I'll never understand why any of this crap is so important to you guys that you cant walk away from it, but I wont judge.

Pointless banter is pretty much the definition of Internet message boards.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 11:17 PM
Hey Die Hard.....can a poster be banned for attacking you on Facebook?

Hahahahaha!!!! There's some shenanegans going on there.

gumby74
06-25-2013, 11:17 PM
Hey Die Hard.....can a poster be banned for attacking you on Facebook?

Hahahahaha!!!! There some shenanegans going on there. Stop the press. Things just got interesting....

Edit: link? haha

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 11:18 PM
QB rankings.
The HOF.

Why on earth do you believe that they are based on reason?
If I put up Randle Cunninghams stats and Troy Aikmen's stats blind and asked who was in the HOF, 99% of people would get it wrong.
I would put up Randall Cunningham's play against Troy Aikman.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:21 PM
I would put up Randall Cunningham's play against Troy Aikman.

So would I. So would anyone that watched them play.

But he's not even sniffing the HOF, and Aikmen was a 1st ballot!

Stats ain't got nothing to do with it...all on emotional memory of a career.

Morehead State
06-25-2013, 11:22 PM
So would I. So would anyone that watched them play.

But he's not even sniffing the HOF, and Aikmen was a 1st ballot!

Stats ain't got nothing to do with it...all on emotional memory of a career.
Stop with the stats DC. Cunningham was just a great player.

Delicreep
06-25-2013, 11:29 PM
Stop with the stats DC. Cunningham was just a great player.

This started with me saying stats don't tell the tale, so this works out well for me. It's good to see you on board!

MattMeyerBud
06-25-2013, 11:33 PM
This started with me saying stats don't tell the tale, so this works out well for me. It's good to see you on board!


Got em