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View Full Version : How much does the Gilbride offense involve the TE when compared to other coordinators



Providence
07-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Being a youth in the days of Bavaro made it easy to love our TE and the position in general. Being a somewhat husky dude with good hands on the playground myself, it was further easy to romanticize the position. Part Bart Oats, part Lionel Manuel, what was not to love? So growing up and still today I was always excited to see great TE play. It seems as if the Gilbride offense doesn't involve the TE too much as a pass catcher. The role of the position is to block first and occasionally catch some balls. However, perhaps this is just a misguided guess on my part. Maybe the Gilbride offense does involve the TE a lot. Or perhaps the goal is to involve them more, but Eli opts for the WR's more frequnetly. Are there more designed plays for TE's with other teams. Take a team like Dallas for example. It seems as if Romo's first option on many plays is Witten. Is this simply because Witten is more talented, or is the offense built that way?

What's your take on this? Anyone have any data that represents these issue?

Also, semi-related topic: Do you see us involving Myers more than Boss, Ballard and Bennett? He seems as if he could have more natural talent than any TE since Shockey. I wonder if he ends up having a bigger role.....I wonder what that would mean for Cruz and Nicks, especially come contract time if he did...(of course, I wonder how much success in TE position is possible when you have guys like Cruz and Nicks stealing attention....)

Thoughts?

ryan12
07-02-2013, 12:33 PM
boss ballard and bennet all had career years under gilbrides offense however i see your point i dont think we involve the te as much as other teams do

GameTime
07-02-2013, 12:34 PM
One thought is that the Giants WR are better now then they were in the days of Bavaro. Also looking at other teams usage of the TE's, while there are exceptions, the TEs are not used as the #1 or even the #2 trarget much. But I think the Giants utilize the TE quite a bit for recieving duties. From Shockey on through last season with Bennet they get their fair amout of touches.

giantsfan420
07-02-2013, 12:40 PM
people are setting their expectations slightly off base imho concerning myers. i continually see people talk about the excitement they have to see Myers used downfield in the vertical pass game.

of all his 80 plus catches with oakland last yr, none were of the variety where the ball is traveling 20 yds or more. which indicates he was used a ton on check down routes/underneath routes. i think in our offense, having a guy like that can be HUGE. we've consistently looked to add that check down dimension from a RB, but applying that role to the TE is genius in my book. We already have 4 or 5 WR's who can successfully get downfield (Nicks, Cruz, Randle, L.Murphy, and even Barden has made receptions downfield). We have possession route runners (Nicks/Cruz/RR) as well as guys who can burn the top of a D (L. Murphy, Nicks, n Cruz) but we dont really have that checkdown option. Even Wilson may be a bit too green to understand that role, esp when he is looking to break a long TD anytime the balls in his hands.

Having Myers run delayed routes, routes after he helps chip a DE, and routes where he's exposing underneath holes in the D due to keying on our WRs and the vertical pass game is going to be such a huge wrinkle. Eli is often forced to either take a hit while waiting for the play to develop downfield or he rushes the throw before its really there, and negative results can happen. Having Myers work the underneath stuff so Eli has a legit check down option to utilize in the face of pressure WITHOUT having to depend on the vertical routes to develop is going to make our offense run even more smoothly.

EliDaMANning
07-02-2013, 12:50 PM
boss ballard and bennet all had career years under gilbrides offense however i see your point i dont think we involve the te as much as other teams do Of course they had career years under Gilbride. They never got a chance to do anything before that.

RoanokeFan
07-02-2013, 12:55 PM
Being a youth in the days of Bavaro made it easy to love our TE and the position in general. Being a somewhat husky dude with good hands on the playground myself, it was further easy to romanticize the position. Part Bart Oats, part Lionel Manuel, what was not to love? So growing up and still today I was always excited to see great TE play. It seems as if the Gilbride offense doesn't involve the TE too much as a pass catcher. The role of the position is to block first and occasionally catch some balls. However, perhaps this is just a misguided guess on my part. Maybe the Gilbride offense does involve the TE a lot. Or perhaps the goal is to involve them more, but Eli opts for the WR's more frequnetly. Are there more designed plays for TE's with other teams. Take a team like Dallas for example. It seems as if Romo's first option on many plays is Witten. Is this simply because Witten is more talented, or is the offense built that way?

What's your take on this? Anyone have any data that represents these issue?

Also, semi-related topic: Do you see us involving Myers more than Boss, Ballard and Bennett? He seems as if he could have more natural talent than any TE since Shockey. I wonder if he ends up having a bigger role.....I wonder what that would mean for Cruz and Nicks, especially come contract time if he did...(of course, I wonder how much success in TE position is possible when you have guys like Cruz and Nicks stealing attention....)

Thoughts?

The first highlight just made me howl, so thanks for that :)

The second, IMO, is spot on. A tight end here is a lineman first who happens to be asked to catch a ball now and then. Even Bavaro The Great was a blocker first but he had skill sets that allowed him to chip his target, get into his route and make plays. I have personally never seen a TE play quite like Bavaro but I also don't follow a lot of other teams' games/players.

In those good old days, we didn't have a WR tandem like Nicks and Cruz to take the load

Kruunch
07-02-2013, 12:55 PM
A bunch of factors:

1) Bennett had the second most receptions on the Giants last year.
2) Bennett was 13th in receptions and yards for NFL tight ends last year.
3) Our offense has been more receiver oriented under Reese.
4) Our last few tight ends have included Boss, Ballard and Pascoe ... none of which were ever seen as premier players.
5) Our game changing TE draft pick (Beckum) never materialized.
6) It appears that they (the coaching staff and FO) want to (and have wanted to) feature the TE more. It's just a matter of finding the right player at the right price. Brandon Myers (and Bennett last year) are good examples of this.

Providence
07-02-2013, 01:34 PM
The first highlight just made me howl, so thanks for that :)

The second, IMO, is spot on. A tight end here is a lineman first who happens to be asked to catch a ball now and then. Even Bavaro The Great was a blocker first but he had skill sets that allowed him to chip his target, get into his route and make plays. I have personally never seen a TE play quite like Bavaro but I also don't follow a lot of other teams' games/players.

In those good old days, we didn't have a WR tandem like Nicks and Cruz to take the load

Glad I gave you a chuckle.

Indeed. I shouldn't have given the impression that Bavaro was exclusively a receiver. The guy was a hell of a blocker for sure.

RoanokeFan
07-02-2013, 01:35 PM
Glad I gave you a chuckle.

Indeed. I shouldn't have given the impression that Bavaro was exclusively a receiver. The guy was a hell of a blocker for sure.

He was one tough dude

Gimaniac
07-02-2013, 01:42 PM
Targets will be dictated by the defense. If they constantly double Cruz and Nick, Myers & Randle could have big years.

Pick your poison.

ryan12
07-02-2013, 03:42 PM
Of course they had career years under Gilbride. They never got a chance to do anything before that.

oh yeah wise ***. how did boss do with oakland and kc?what did bennett do with coyboys in 4 years?

Drez
07-02-2013, 11:58 PM
Bennett had something like 90 targets last year. The TE was involved plenty in the offense. However, your last point explains a lot. With Nicks and Cruz on the field, those guys are going to be the first options on most plays.

joemorrisforprez
07-02-2013, 11:59 PM
Gilbride involves the tight end enough that we can't hold on to them when free agency rolls around.

Redeyejedi
07-03-2013, 10:13 AM
The Starting TE in are offense is usually the 3rd leading receiver for the season. I see nothing wrong with that. It tells me they use him enough in the passing game. When has the TE been a better option and we havent used him

appodictic
07-03-2013, 10:10 PM
Somewhat unrelated I was sad to see ballard go, but I read he is still not practising yet.. so loosing him does not seem so bad at this point.

kNicksGiants
07-03-2013, 10:30 PM
i'm of the belief that we would use the TE more if we have a better o-line. often times we use max protect and still give up pressure. if we could block well with just 5 we'd send the TE out more on routes.

Sovereign
07-04-2013, 01:14 AM
Of course they had career years under Gilbride. They never got a chance to do anything before that.
lol this.

Drez
07-04-2013, 02:57 AM
i'm of the belief that we would use the TE more if we have a better o-line. often times we use max protect and still give up pressure. if we could block well with just 5 we'd send the TE out more on routes.Explain then how Bennett received nearly 17% of the targets on passing downs.

For comparison, Cruz saw 26.5% of targets on passing downs.

penguinfarmer
07-04-2013, 07:49 AM
Gilbride had some crossover with Shockey in the beginning of his tenure where Shockey was second in targets. So I'd say Gilbride has had incorporated the position as much as any coordinator. The lack of upper echelon production mirrors the talent level of the TE [along with the superior talent at WR], not Gilbride.

Gimaniac
07-04-2013, 09:21 AM
We have the most talented WRs in the NFL, why should we harken to Bavaro/Shockey days?

That being said, I think Myers will have numbers similar to Bennett last year because all the attention diverted to said WRs.

RoanokeFan
07-04-2013, 09:27 AM
Explain then how Bennett received nearly 17% of the targets on passing downs.

For comparison, Cruz saw 26.5% of targets on passing downs.

Wasn't Bennett also second in yards and TDs?

Drez
07-04-2013, 12:26 PM
Wasn't Bennett also second in yards and TDs?He was second on the team with receptions (55), Nicks was close behind with 53. He was also third in yards (626) and second in TDs (5).

RoanokeFan
07-04-2013, 12:31 PM
He was second on the team with receptions (55), Nicks was close behind with 53. He was also third in yards (626) and second in TDs (5).

I'm not sure how that compares to other offensive coordinators as I don't watch a lot of football that doesn't include the Giants.

Toadofsteel
07-04-2013, 12:44 PM
Honestly, how often our TE gets targets depends on how often he's used on blocking assignments. We can afford to use our TE to block more when Nicks and Cruz are going downfield, and the way Diehl played last year, we often needed the TE to block. The fact that Bennett had something like 90 targets in the face of all that is just proof of how amazing he actually is (and why i'm not surprised that he went to seek the big bucks while he still could).

We're never going to have another bavaro on this team while Nicks and Cruz are still around. Most of the top shelf talent is in WR. Doesn't mean any TE we have are slouches, but it does mean that WR are getting the primary targets.

B&RWarrior
07-04-2013, 01:46 PM
people are setting their expectations slightly off base imho concerning myers. i continually see people talk about the excitement they have to see Myers used downfield in the vertical pass game.

of all his 80 plus catches with oakland last yr, none were of the variety where the ball is traveling 20 yds or more. which indicates he was used a ton on check down routes/underneath routes. i think in our offense, having a guy like that can be HUGE. we've consistently looked to add that check down dimension from a RB, but applying that role to the TE is genius in my book. We already have 4 or 5 WR's who can successfully get downfield (Nicks, Cruz, Randle, L.Murphy, and even Barden has made receptions downfield). We have possession route runners (Nicks/Cruz/RR) as well as guys who can burn the top of a D (L. Murphy, Nicks, n Cruz) but we dont really have that checkdown option. Even Wilson may be a bit too green to understand that role, esp when he is looking to break a long TD anytime the balls in his hands.

Having Myers run delayed routes, routes after he helps chip a DE, and routes where he's exposing underneath holes in the D due to keying on our WRs and the vertical pass game is going to be such a huge wrinkle. Eli is often forced to either take a hit while waiting for the play to develop downfield or he rushes the throw before its really there, and negative results can happen. Having Myers work the underneath stuff so Eli has a legit check down option to utilize in the face of pressure WITHOUT having to depend on the vertical routes to develop is going to make our offense run even more smoothly.

You're assuming we would use him as the Raiders did. I doubt it. He's going to have to learn how to play Gilbride ball, Giants ball. We go deep baby!

B&RWarrior
07-04-2013, 01:49 PM
Honestly, how often our TE gets targets depends on how often he's used on blocking assignments. We can afford to use our TE to block more when Nicks and Cruz are going downfield, and the way Diehl played last year, we often needed the TE to block. The fact that Bennett had something like 90 targets in the face of all that is just proof of how amazing he actually is (and why i'm not surprised that he went to seek the big bucks while he still could).

We're never going to have another bavaro on this team while Nicks and Cruz are still around. Most of the top shelf talent is in WR. Doesn't mean any TE we have are slouches, but it does mean that WR are getting the primary targets.

He played like where Dallas drafted him last year.

Drez
07-04-2013, 02:23 PM
He played like where Dallas drafted him last year.Remember when a team (can't remember but I think it was JAX or CAR) offered Jerry a 1st for Bennett and he turned it down? lmao

gmen0820
07-04-2013, 03:23 PM
Remember when a team (can't remember but I think it was JAX or CAR) offered Jerry a 1st for Bennett and he turned it down? lmaoI believe it was Cincy. Not sure if it was a first, but it was a substantial amount (could've been a 2nd + something else) for a guy who clearly couldn't get many chances in Dallas.

giantsfan420
07-04-2013, 03:45 PM
Remember when a team (can't remember but I think it was JAX or CAR) offered Jerry a 1st for Bennett and he turned it down? lmaoi do. i believe it was a 2nd and a 5th or something. it wasnt a 1rst iirc. and dallas turned it down citing how Bennett was going to become this integral piece of the puzzle...lmao...

B&RWarrior
07-04-2013, 04:18 PM
i do. i believe it was a 2nd and a 5th or something. it wasnt a 1rst iirc. and dallas turned it down citing how Bennett was going to become this integral piece of the puzzle...lmao...

The genius of Jerry. O_o

giantsfan420
07-04-2013, 04:49 PM
lol. i think thats the first time in history genius and jerryjones have been used in the same sentence

JesseJames
07-04-2013, 05:55 PM
if my memory serves me correctly this topic of Gilbride and Coughlins offense not using the TE enough goes back to their Jacksonville days as well, I remember players from that team complaining about not being used enough in the passing game

B&RWarrior
07-04-2013, 05:58 PM
Gilbride's offense is based on the run and shoot he ran in Houston. The TE is usually a 4th option. He also says his offensive philosophy is grounded in the idea of thinking one step ahead of the defense. Well if that's the case then using the TE more would definitely add to the element of surprise.

Drez
07-04-2013, 08:34 PM
if my memory serves me correctly this topic of Gilbride and Coughlins offense not using the TE enough goes back to their Jacksonville days as well, I remember players from that team complaining about not being used enough in the passing gameHowever, the TE is utilized often in our offense. Just because we don't have a guy putting up Gronk/Gonzalez/Graham numbers doesn't mean we don't use the TE often.