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RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:02 PM
http://www.giants.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/NFL-Network-Is-Victor-Cruz-an-Elite-WR/6bf9248d-42a1-43a7-b71a-93abcc16a75f


In the wake of Victor Cruz signing his contract extension through the 2018 season, pundits have weighed in on where the Giants’ wide receiver stacks up around the NFL.

As shown below, Cruz, in the last decade, leads receivers in yards and touchdowns based off the players’ second and third seasons in the NFL combined (Cruz played in three games a rookie in 2010 before he was placed on injured reserve). But does that make Cruz an elite wide receiver moving forward?

There’s that word again.

Former players and current analysts Shaun O’Hara and Donovan McNabb recently debated the topic (http://www.giants.com/media-vault/videos/NFLN-Cruzin-to-elite-status/ed6c872d-e9d0-420b-ac74-01a1f334a3e8) on NFL Network’s “Total Access.”

O’Hara: “He is absolutely elite. Everybody talks about slot receivers having to have 100-catch seasons. To me, it’s not about quantity, it’s about quality. And when you look at Victor Cruz the last two seasons, he has led the NFL in production on third down. So I look at Victor Cruz as elite because he does a number of things. Yes, we compare him to Wes Welker. He runs great routes. He’s very precise getting out and creating separation. [In the 77-yard touchdown that clinched a win against the Redskins in Week 7 of 2012], it was bracket coverage. He was double covered. He ran through it. He has the speed that most slot receivers don’t.

“Victor Cruz brings certain abilities that not all slot receivers have. I think back to the Jets game in 2011 – the play that [vaulted] the Giants into their Super Bowl run. He made guys miss, not a lot of slot receivers can do that.”

McNabb: “I think it’s truly unfair to compare him to guys like Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, all these guys who just really stay outside. I think when you look at just the wide receiver position, it’s about game changers and who is a guy you have to double team because you know on third down he’s going to get the ball and you just can’t seem to stop him. [Cruz] had over 1,000 yards receiving, but he dropped a lot of balls early in the season. Here is a guy who Eli Manning definitely relies on. You have to have that security blanket playing the quarterback position, and he just so happened to be on the outside and now on the inside.

“Yes, he’s well-deserving of the money he received, maybe a little bit more. But when you look at what he’s been able to do, no, he’s not comparable to a guy like Wes Welker. To me, Wes Welker is just a slot receiver. Compare him to [Dolphins receiver Brian] Hartline, that is a slap in the face to a guy like Victor Cruz. I think when you look at the elite receiver-quarterback combinations you have to start with a guy like Eli and also with a guy like Victor Cruz.”

Wide Receivers in Years 2 and 3 (Since 2004)
Victor Cruz (Giants) – 2,628 YDS, 19 TD
Brandon Marshall (Broncos) – 2,590 YDS, 13 TD
Mike Wallace (Steelers) – 2,450 YDS, 18 TD
Larry Fitzgerald (Cardinals) – 2,355 YDS, 16 TD
Calvin Johnson (Lions) – 2,315 YDS, 17 TD

POLL

Thank you for voting!



Yes 92.45%
No 7.55%

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:03 PM
This should take the pressure off Nicks for a few pages

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:10 PM
Well you can spell Cruz without "elite".

ny06
07-10-2013, 05:11 PM
To respond to McNabb, why is it unfair to compare him to Johnson or Fitzgerald?
In just two seasons as the stat sheet shows (year 2 and 3) he has better stats than the best wr's in the game.
If we're just looking at the full body of work that would be unfair to compare a two year starter to players who have started for a minimum of 5 seasons.

giantscolombia
07-10-2013, 05:11 PM
http://www.databreachwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Facepalm.jpg
So it begins...

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:12 PM
Seriously, he does have the numbers, and not sure of anyone over the past two seasons has had as many big play TD's as he has.

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:13 PM
He has impressive numbers, is that "eite"?

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:14 PM
He has impressive numbers, is that "eite"?Still does not spell Cruz!

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:14 PM
To respond to McNabb, why is it unfair to compare him to Johnson or Fitzgerald?
In just two seasons as the stat sheet shows (year 2 and 3) he has better stats than the best wr's in the game.
If we're just looking at the full body of work that would be unfair to compare a two year starter to players who have started for a minimum of 5 seasons.

I didn't take that away from what McNaab was saying. I thought he was agreeing Cruz was elite by saying he's more than a Welker type slot receiver

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:15 PM
Still does not spell Cruz!

So then Brady isn't elite either? :rolleyes:

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:17 PM
So then Brady isn't elite either? :rolleyes:Exactly. The only "elite" player is Eli.

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:18 PM
Exactly. The only "elite" player is Eli.

OH DAMN, you didn't

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:20 PM
OH DAMN, you didn'tThis should really distract people from all the Nicks threads now!

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:21 PM
No doubt

giantscolombia
07-10-2013, 05:22 PM
Exactly. The only "elite" player is Eli.
BRO!!! BE CAREFUL WITH WHAT YOU SAY AROUND HERE!!!

BigBlue wins
07-10-2013, 05:23 PM
Exactly. The only "elite" player is Eli.

w00t w00t

lol

GameTime
07-10-2013, 05:26 PM
he is on his way to becoming elite.....thats for sure.....

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 05:27 PM
Seriously though, the offense has the potential to be very good.

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:29 PM
Seriously though, the offense has the potential to be very good.

WAY GOOD

NYGabriel
07-10-2013, 05:44 PM
Cruz is an elite inside guy but not an elite outside guy. He was on the outside but now he's on the inside which is a slap in the face.

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 05:48 PM
Cruz is an elite inside guy but not an elite outside guy. He was on the outside but now he's on the inside which is a slap in the face.

I am one who believes in production and he's been productive whatever label we choose to give him. Because he also plays outside, I don't see him as "just" a slot receiver. Anyway you slice it, his last two years productivity have been impressive.

gumby74
07-10-2013, 06:01 PM
There's only enough room for 1 elite train and that is already full. Sorry Victor, but you'll need to wait.

Rusty192
07-10-2013, 06:07 PM
Exactly. The only "elite" player is Eli.And our defense doesn't suck.........at all

GameTime
07-10-2013, 06:12 PM
Cruz is an elite inside guy but not an elite outside guy. He was on the outside but now he's on the inside which is a slap in the face.
not even close......doesnt even make sense......

Rudyy
07-10-2013, 06:20 PM
And our defense doesn't suck.........at allOf course they don't. They were 12th in points allowed.

Giantz4Life
07-10-2013, 06:20 PM
Cruz is an elite inside guy but not an elite outside guy. He was on the outside but now he's on the inside which is a slap in the face.

I disagree completely. Cruz has proven he can make plays on the outside when he has another quality receiver opposite him. The thing with Cruz is, in my opinion, labeling him a slot receiver is incorrect and as fans, unfair to him. His duties for the Giants transcend what normal slot receivers are asked to do. He has proven he can stretch the field, and also be arguably the best 3rd down receiver in the NFL. I think one could make the case that he is the most versatile WR in the league.

And moving him around is not a slap in the face, it is in fact the complete opposite.

Rudyy
07-10-2013, 06:25 PM
Victor Cruz is elite, he is very elite.

Rusty192
07-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Of course they don't. They were 12th in points allowed.lol

Rusty192
07-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Victor Cruz is elite, he is very elite.so be afraid... very, very afraid.

GameTime
07-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Victor Cruz is elite, he is very elite.

hmmmm.....you know we are talking about football right?

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Victor Cruz is elite, he is very elite.

This is two agreements today, I may swoon :p

Buddy333
07-10-2013, 06:27 PM
Of course they don't. They were 12th in points allowed.The where not good. They played equally as bad as the offense did.

Rusty192
07-10-2013, 06:29 PM
The where not good. They played equally as bad as the offense did.haha ok

Rusty192
07-10-2013, 06:29 PM
This is two agreements today, I may swoon :pkeep it together, man!

Rudyy
07-10-2013, 06:34 PM
This is two agreements today, I may swoon :pYou are on a roll.

AllHailEli
07-10-2013, 07:21 PM
In the "what have you done for me lately" culture, who cares? What matters is what he'll contribute and how effective he'll be this coming season. It's critical this season since we are hosting the Super Bowl.

Ruttiger711
07-10-2013, 08:06 PM
Elite at his position yes. As a #1 on the outside, no.

Yes he is much more than "just" a slot.

giantsfan420
07-10-2013, 08:37 PM
lol @ the poll results. 93% yes.

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 09:17 PM
I think when you put up numbers no other Giant in franchise history has, you tend to be considered elite.

Cruz is the only player in Giants history to have at least 80 receptions, 1,000 receiving yards and nine TDs in a season. And he's done it twice.

nhpgiantsfan
07-10-2013, 10:31 PM
Does anyone else hate the word elite? I will never use it again!!

RoanokeFan
07-10-2013, 11:25 PM
Does anyone else hate the word elite? I will never use it again!! As with many superlatives, it's all about interpretation.

jomo
07-10-2013, 11:39 PM
As with many superlatives, it's all about interpretation.I would say that it is all about tedious and overworked. :)

FBomb
07-11-2013, 12:09 AM
Sorry I'm late to the party. Been busting my *** all week. Just got home.....

Anyway.....the point of this post is...

OH NO!!! We've stumbled into something far more meaningless than whether Eli is elite or not.

Cruz is not elite.....you can't spell "elite" with V-I-C-T-O-R

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:10 AM
You can't spell sexy without Victor.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 07:23 AM
Sorry I'm late to the party. Been busting my *** all week. Just got home.....

Anyway.....the point of this post is...

OH NO!!! We've stumbled into something far more meaningless than whether Eli is elite or not.

Cruz is not elite.....you can't spell "elite" with V-I-C-T-O-R

But Cruz is a winner and you can't spell V-I-C-T-O-R-Y without, well. VICTOR. SO THERE!

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 07:25 AM
I would say that it is all about tedious and overworked. :)

Tis the offseason

danielboone
07-11-2013, 07:45 AM
I disagree completely. Cruz has proven he can make plays on the outside when he has another quality receiver opposite him. The thing with Cruz is, in my opinion, labeling him a slot receiver is incorrect and as fans, unfair to him. His duties for the Giants transcend what normal slot receivers are asked to do. He has proven he can stretch the field, and also be arguably the best 3rd down receiver in the NFL. I think one could make the case that he is the most versatile WR in the league.

And moving him around is not a slap in the face, it is in fact the complete opposite.

+1

You've got a couple of ex-players telling us Cruz is in fact more than a wideout AND more than a slot; in fact, a very special receiver and yet our local "experts" (who are supposed to be Giants fans) don't wanna hear it. You bet your *** he's elite.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 07:49 AM
+1

You've got a couple of ex-players telling us Cruz is in fact more than a wideout AND more than a slot; in fact, a very special receiver and yet our local "experts" (who are supposed to be Giants fans) don't wanna hear it. You bet your *** he's elite.

It's just fan culture on steroids at times.

NYGabriel
07-11-2013, 08:04 AM
Hang on a minute. Cruz is definitely elite - just not as a split end or flanker. Look at last year when they tried to line him up on the outside. It's not his suit. He's on course to be one of the greatest slot receivers of all time and he has big playmaking ability but it's unfair to compare him to the likes of Megatron, Marshall, Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson.

chasjay
07-11-2013, 08:21 AM
I am one who believes in production and he's been productive whatever label we choose to give him...........

+1....... And Apply Liberally

TCHOF
07-11-2013, 08:21 AM
Doesn't seem to be much of an argument since over 92% of the people polled apparently said that he is elite.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 08:24 AM
Doesn't seem to be much of an argument since over 92% of the people polled apparently said that he is elite.

lol but what do YOU think?

FBomb
07-11-2013, 09:24 AM
But Cruz is a winner and you can't spell V-I-C-T-O-R-Y without, well. VICTOR. SO THERE!
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKuwwpd2niInb4KiNcbKR9XakLwYM0s 9NBAIVngbj_TIEJOwF83g (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Podn3rDvPM7UeM&tbnid=k3ORWBc2VWFBfM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funnyjunk.com%2Ffunny_gifs%2F 4152776%2FBronies%2Bin%2Ba%2BNutshell%2F&ei=86PeUc7sEoe24AOH3YC4AQ&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNEaMHQMttHsPabfzbz_OPxsjZp1dw&ust=1373631837321642)

Buddy333
07-11-2013, 09:38 AM
But Cruz is a winner and you can't spell V-I-C-T-O-R-Y without, well. VICTOR. SO THERE!Good one.

gumby74
07-11-2013, 09:38 AM
But Cruz is a winner and you can't spell V-I-C-T-O-R-Y without, well. VICTOR. SO THERE! Hmm this is true. I'll take VICTORY over ELITE any day. Doh!

Buddy333
07-11-2013, 09:40 AM
Oh boy! This should be ten more pages.

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 09:51 AM
Hang on a minute. Cruz is definitely elite - just not as a split end or flanker. Look at last year when they tried to line him up on the outside. It's not his suit. He's on course to be one of the greatest slot receivers of all time and he has big playmaking ability but it's unfair to compare him to the likes of Megatron, Marshall, Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson.They lined him up across an injured Nicks who was shut down on single coverage the entire year. Cruz put up fantastic numbers considering he had no reliable #2 last year.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 10:15 AM
Hang on a minute. Cruz is definitely elite - just not as a split end or flanker. Look at last year when they tried to line him up on the outside. It's not his suit. He's on course to be one of the greatest slot receivers of all time and he has big playmaking ability but it's unfair to compare him to the likes of Megatron, Marshall, Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson.I do believe he can play the outside..he's just not as lethal as Nicks, but he can still play the outside very well.

Ruttiger711
07-11-2013, 10:17 AM
They lined him up across an injured Nicks who was shut down on single coverage the entire year. Cruz put up fantastic numbers considering he had no reliable #2 last year.

Cruz averaged between 4-5 catches, barely over 50 yds a game and 3 whole td's in the last 8 games.... are those the fantastic numbers you're talking about?

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 10:18 AM
I do believe he can play the outside..he's just not as lethal as Nicks, but he can still play the outside very well.

Which is why he is so valuable to this team.

NYGabriel
07-11-2013, 10:20 AM
They lined him up across an injured Nicks who was shut down on single coverage the entire year. Cruz put up fantastic numbers considering he had no reliable #2 last year.

Totally missing the point. Yes Cruz is clearly a fantastic receiver but most of his yards are gained on the inside where it's easier. Line him up as a split end and his production would drop. Wes Welker has more yards, td's and receptions than Larry Fitzgerald over the past 3 years but ask any GM who they'd take.

NYGabriel
07-11-2013, 10:22 AM
I do believe he can play the outside..he's just not as lethal as Nicks, but he can still play the outside very well.

He's top 4 slot along with Welker, Harvin and Cobb. Arguably number one. On the outside I don't think he'd be top 20.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 10:23 AM
Cruz averaged between 4-5 catches, barely over 50 yds a game and 3 whole td's in the last 8 games.... are those the fantastic numbers you're talking about?

You can take a sliver of time out of most player's careers where they were not awesome and you can include Eli in that for not throwing a TD pass in how many games last season? But that doesn't define Eli any more than what you point out defines Cruz. When you look at Cruz's entire body of work over the last two years he's put up better than decent numbers.

He is the only player in Giants history to have at least 80 receptions, 1,000 receiving yards and nine TDs in a season. And he's done it twice.

When you do something no other player at your position has ever done it deserves recognition, when you do it twice, it's indicative of a special player.

Moke
07-11-2013, 10:25 AM
I love how many people voted "yes" when he's only had a few seasons.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 10:26 AM
He's top 4 slot along with Welker, Harvin and Cobb. Arguably number one. On the outside I don't think he'd be top 20.I see your point, and I agree. He's much more dangerous and productive in the slot. But he can play the outside, just not as effectively. But that's okay.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 10:27 AM
I love how many people voted "yes" when he's only had a few seasons.His few seasons have surpassed many elite receivers first 2 years. If he keeps that up, he will have better numbers than them.

Moke
07-11-2013, 10:41 AM
His few seasons have surpassed many elite receivers first 2 years. If he keeps that up, he will have better numbers than them.

I'm not titling someone "elite" after 2 seasons. Sounds absolutely absurd.

NYGabriel
07-11-2013, 10:45 AM
I'm not titling someone "elite" after 2 seasons. Sounds absolutely absurd.


How many seasons then? I would have called Gronkowski elite at the start of last season.

Moke
07-11-2013, 10:46 AM
How many seasons then? I would have called Gronkowski elite at the start of last season.

Maybe after this one. 3 is good enough

GameTime
07-11-2013, 11:10 AM
He's top 4 slot along with Welker, Harvin and Cobb. Arguably number one. On the outside I don't think he'd be top 20.

still not a slap in the face that he is a slot reciever and not a wide out. Many wideouts cant or wont play the slot.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm not titling someone "elite" after 2 seasons. Sounds absolutely absurd.So what is he? Just very good? He's broken records in just 2 years. Answer me this, how is he not elite?

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:18 AM
So what is he? Just very good? He's broken records in just 2 years. Answer me this, how is he not elite?

Because I don't think we can call anyone elite in 2 years.

I honestly think this word is tossed around so ****ing much, it's insane.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:19 AM
Because I don't think we can call anyone elite in 2 years.I honestly think this word is tossed around so ****ing much, it's insane.How is he not elite? He's top 5-10 in almost every receiving category the past 2 years, would a 3rd year seriously make that much of a difference?

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 11:20 AM
Depends on your definition of "elite". To me the term refers to the top three or so players at every position. So unless we're counting Slot as independent from Wide Receiver, I wouldn't consider Cruz "elite".

GameTime
07-11-2013, 11:20 AM
So what is he? Just very good? He's broken records in just 2 years. Answer me this, how is he not elite?
He is one of the top recievers in the leaue and is on his way to becoming an elite player. IMO....elite should be about a players career and 2 seaons doesn not make a career. Taking nothing away from Cruz at all. He has been exceptional and if he continues will certainly be elite.

TCHOF
07-11-2013, 11:24 AM
lol but what do YOU think?

I'm with the majority.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:24 AM
I'm with the majority.

So he sucks? lol

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:26 AM
Fine...I'll wait calling him elite..for only a day.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:28 AM
He is one of the top recievers in the leaue and is on his way to becoming an elite player. IMO....elite should be about a players career and 2 seaons doesn not make a career. Taking nothing away from Cruz at all. He has been exceptional and if he continues will certainly be elite.

I can agree with you, much as it pains me, but in two seasons, to twice have put up numbers second to no other WR ever on this team is a damn good accomplishment.

I am looking forward to Nicks and Cruz becoming the hands down best tandem in the NFL.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:28 AM
Fine...I'll wait calling him elite..for only a day.

Sure, leave me out on the limb :p

BigBlue1971
07-11-2013, 11:29 AM
I love how many people voted "yes" when he's only had a few seasons.

that's right but he came out a beast and hasn't slowed down at all.

Cruz is for real. no two year wonder here imo.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:30 AM
Sure, leave me out on the limb :pI don't keep promises hehhehehehehehehhehe

GameTime
07-11-2013, 11:32 AM
I can agree with you, much as it pains me, but in two seasons, to twice have put up numbers second to no other WR ever on this team is a damn good accomplishment.

I am looking forward to Nicks and Cruz becoming the hands down best tandem in the NFL.
without a doubt. I am not saying he is a two year wonder at all. If Nicks?Cruz and company stay healthy.....LOOK OUT!!!!

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't keep promises hehhehehehehehehhehe

This younger generation!

Rusty192
07-11-2013, 11:32 AM
So he sucks? lolWait, what?

GameTime
07-11-2013, 11:33 AM
I don't keep promises hehhehehehehehehhehe

you better Ms. Wet T-shirt 2014........

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:33 AM
I've never seen people toss the word "elite" more than this message board. Whatever floats your boat.

2 seasons doesn't justify ****. I am not taking anything away from Cruz. People will probably bash me for saying something I never said though, typical posters here.

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:33 AM
without a doubt. I am not saying he is a two year wonder at all. If Nicks?Cruz and company stay healthy.....LOOK OUT!!!!

I'm worn out now :o

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:34 AM
you better Ms. Wet T-shirt 2014........But Nicks is coming back....I hope....I really hope..

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:35 AM
that's right but he came out a beast and hasn't slowed down at all.

Cruz is for real. no two year wonder here imo.

I never disagreed, but OK.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:35 AM
I've never seen people toss the word "elite" more than this message board. Whatever floats your boat. 2 seasons doesn't justify ****. I am not taking anything away from Cruz. People will probably bash me for saying something I never said though, typical posters here.Fair enough. You aren't an elite poster!

RoanokeFan
07-11-2013, 11:36 AM
But Nicks is coming back....I hope....I really hope..

We all agree with that, MAYBE

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:37 AM
Fair enough. You aren't an elite poster!

LOL'd!

Oh mayn :(

speedman
07-11-2013, 11:38 AM
You can take a sliver of time out of most player's careers where they were not awesome and you can include Eli in that for not throwing a TD pass in how many games last season? But that doesn't define Eli any more than what you point out defines Cruz. When you look at Cruz's entire body of work over the last two years he's put up better than decent numbers.He is the only player in Giants history to have at least 80 receptions, 1,000 receiving yards and nine TDs in a season. And he's done it twice.When you do something no other player at your position has ever done it deserves recognition, when you do it twice, it's indicative of a special player.Cruz is much more productive when Nicks is healthy.

GameTime
07-11-2013, 11:38 AM
But Nicks is coming back....I hope....I really hope..

I am torn now whether I want him back or not...lol
The fan in me says yes. The eternal 15 year old boy in me says no....:cool:

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 11:39 AM
How is he not elite? He's top 5-10 in almost every receiving category the past 2 years, would a 3rd year seriously make that much of a difference?I'm sure most people on here were quick to put Rodgers at the top after a couple of monster seasons but when it comes to our own players, theres some sort of agenda.

Ruttiger711
07-11-2013, 11:39 AM
You can take a sliver of time out of most player's careers where they were not awesome and you can include Eli in that for not throwing a TD pass in how many games last season? But that doesn't define Eli any more than what you point out defines Cruz. When you look at Cruz's entire body of work over the last two years he's put up better than decent numbers.

He is the only player in Giants history to have at least 80 receptions, 1,000 receiving yards and nine TDs in a season. And he's done it twice.

When you do something no other player at your position has ever done it deserves recognition, when you do it twice, it's indicative of a special player.

I just find it funny that when looking at ANY player on the Giants, cumulative stats are "misleading". When looking at Cruz, it's "over the last 2 years he did" ..etc.


and BTW - Cruz's last 12 games, 40% of his entire career which by no means is a sliver - he has NOT performed to this superman standard. All I'm doing is looking at Cruz the way any fan looks at ANY other player in blue.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:40 AM
I am so split on VC. He's elite (I don't keep promises), but at the same time he gets much help from another elite receiver who can't stay healthy lol.

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
I'm sure most people on here were quick to put Rodgers at the top after a couple of monster seasons but when it comes to our own players, theres some sort of agenda.

Naw, I didn't put Rodgers on the top after a couple of monster seasons. WHat about Flynn? I know a bunch of you guys wanted to **** the **** out of him after 1 game.

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
I am so split on VC. He's elite (I don't keep promises), but at the same time he gets much help from another elite receiver who can't stay healthy lol.

If you're so unsure, why would we call him an elite receiver right now?

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:43 AM
I am torn now whether I want him back or not...lolThe fan in me says yes. The eternal 15 year old boy in me says no....:cool:Haha, pick your poison.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:44 AM
If you're so unsure, why would we call him an elite receiver right now?Because he IS elite. I'm just saying he is elite because of a little bit of help, which then turns into another conversation.

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 11:44 AM
I'm sure most people on here were quick to put Rodgers at the top after a couple of monster seasons but when it comes to our own players, theres some sort of agenda.
It took me until last season to annoint Rodgers. Not sure why I didn't trust him prior.

In Cruz's case his peers are guys like Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald. I just can't place him anywhere near them.

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:45 AM
Because he IS elite. I'm just saying he is elite because of a little bit of help, which then turns into another conversation.

But you're split on Cruz....

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:45 AM
I'm sure most people on here were quick to put Rodgers at the top after a couple of monster seasons but when it comes to our own players, theres some sort of agenda.Actually Rodgers wasn't considered elite after his first 2 seasons. The Packers actually struggled, and got booted from the playoffs.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:46 AM
But you're split on Cruz....I'm not split on his ability to play the wideout position. I'm split on would he be as productive if it weren't for Nicks.

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:48 AM
I'm not split on his ability to play the wideout position. I'm split on would he be as productive if it weren't for Nicks.

Shouldn't an elite receiver be 100% productive with or without another wideout?

So if you're split on that, how can you anoint him "elite"?

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Shouldn't an elite receiver be 100% productive with or without another wideout? So if you're split on that, how can you anoint him "elite"?Because of the way he plays and the numbers he puts up. I can't give ALL of what he does to Nicks. I'm just saying I think Nicks takes pressure off of him, but that should not make Cruz un-elite.

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 11:51 AM
It took me until last season to annoint Rodgers. Not sure why I didn't trust him prior.

In Cruz's case his peers are guys like Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald. I just can't place him anywhere near them.lol people placed him as a top 5 QB after his SB win.

Rudy- He played out of his mind againsts the cards. The loss wasn't his fault.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:52 AM
lol people placed him as a top 5 QB after his SB win. Rudy- He played out of his mind againsts the cards. The loss wasn't his fault.Never said it was his fault, but they struggled in the postseason.

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 11:53 AM
Naw, I didn't put Rodgers on the top after a couple of monster seasons. WHat about Flynn? I know a bunch of you guys wanted to **** the **** out of him after 1 game.Were you one of them?

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:53 AM
Because of the way he plays and the numbers he puts up. I can't give ALL of what he does to Nicks. I'm just saying I think Nicks takes pressure off of him, but that should not make Cruz un-elite.

It made Larry Fitzgerald and Megatron, which to me makes sense that Cruz is not on their level.

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:54 AM
Were you one of them?

Do you know how to read?

speedman
07-11-2013, 11:54 AM
I'm not split on his ability to play the wideout position. I'm split on would he be as productive if it weren't for Nicks.The answer is no.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 11:54 AM
It made Larry Fitzgerald and Megatron, which to me makes sense that Cruz is not on their level.So if your name isn't Larry or Calvin you can't be considered elite? Is Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, and Roddy White not elite?

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 11:55 AM
Do you know how to read?Are you staring at a cheeseburger?

Moke
07-11-2013, 11:56 AM
So if your name isn't Larry or Calvin you can't be considered elite? Is Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, and Roddy White not elite?

Again, elite being thrown around.

Is elite going to be top 20 in specific categories soon?

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 12:00 PM
lol people placed him as a top 5 QB after his SB win.
Who is "people"? Everyone?

Rodgers' continued high level of play in the absence of his go-to receiver and o-line is what finally sold me on him.


but that should not make Cruz un-elite.
How do you define "elite"?

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:02 PM
How do you define "elite"?

Top 15 wide receivers are elite

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:11 PM
Again, elite being thrown around. Is elite going to be top 20 in specific categories soon?I compared his numbers to those of his peers. He had better numbers than most of them in their first 2 years. I also looked at other receiving categories and Cruz is near the top in almost all of them. That is elite. I am not by any means saying he is LIKE Larry or Calvin.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:12 PM
Who is "people"? Everyone?Rodgers' continued high level of play in the absence of his go-to receiver and o-line is what finally sold me on him.How do you define "elite"?See above.

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:16 PM
I compared his numbers to those of his peers. He had better numbers than most of them in their first 2 years. I also looked at other receiving categories and Cruz is near the top in almost all of them. That is elite. I am not by any means saying he is LIKE Larry or Calvin.

in 2 seasons

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:18 PM
in 2 seasonsYes, in 2 seasons he has elite numbers. Isn't that amazing??

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:21 PM
Yes, in 2 seasons he has elite numbers. Isn't that amazing??

Yeah, but what happens if his numbers fall dramatically after 3 more seasons? Elite right?

Makes no sense to judge a player LIKE THAT after only 2 seasons, no matter who it is.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:23 PM
Yeah, but what happens if his numbers fall dramatically after 3 more seasons? Elite right?Makes no sense to judge a player LIKE THAT after only 2 seasons, no matter who it is.You are correct, but he has an ELITE QUARTERBACK throwing to him :)

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 12:25 PM
I compared his numbers to those of his peers. He had better numbers than most of them in their first 2 years. I also looked at other receiving categories and Cruz is near the top in almost all of them. That is elite. I am not by any means saying he is LIKE Larry or Calvin.
See this is what I don't understand: With Nicks, you refer to his physicality and ball skills as a measure of his status, yet with Cruz it's pure numbers?

Stats only tell part of the story. e.g. Eli and Carson Palmer put up comparable numbers last season, yet everyone knows they're light years apart.

Now I'm not comparing Victor Cruz to Carson Palmer, I just don't feel that statistics on their own can be used to gauge a player's quality. There are just way too many variables to consider.

Ruttiger711
07-11-2013, 12:26 PM
Yes, in 2 seasons he has elite numbers. Isn't that amazing??

1st season and 1/4 of second season - "elite" at his position

last 3/4 of 2nd season - he was Danny Amendola.... ie "not elite"... (and not a small sampling of games either)

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:27 PM
See this is what I don't understand: With Nicks, you refer to his physicality and ball skills as a measure of his status, yet with Cruz it's pure numbers?Stats only tell part of the story. e.g. Eli and Carson Palmer put up comparable numbers last season, yet everyone knows they're light years apartIt's not pure numbers. I said in another post that his skillset as a wideout make him elite as well.

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:27 PM
See this is what I don't understand: With Nicks, you refer to his physicality and ball skills as a measure of his status, yet with Cruz it's pure numbers?

Stats only tell part of the story. e.g. Eli and Carson Palmer put up comparable numbers last season, yet everyone knows they're light years apart

Exactly

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:27 PM
1st season and 1/4 of second season - "elite" at his positionlast 3/4 of 2nd season - he was Danny Amendola.... ie "not elite"... (and not a small sampling of games either)Well this is why he's not better than Nicks :P

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:28 PM
Well this is why he's not better than Nicks :P

So wow , we have 2 "elite" WRs on this team, legit!

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:29 PM
So wow , we have 2 "elite" WRs on this team, legit!Duh?

Ruttiger711
07-11-2013, 12:30 PM
Well this is why he's not better than Nicks :P

Nothing to do with Nicks - I just don't agree with soley measuring Cruz's ability on his cumulative numbers.

Rudyy
07-11-2013, 12:31 PM
Nothing to do with Nicks - I just don't agree with soley measuring Cruz's ability on his cumulative numbers.I'm not soley focusing on numbers. Everything has to do with skillset, production, etc. it's everything.

GameTime
07-11-2013, 12:32 PM
Haha, pick your poison.
well at this satge of the game I will go with the fan in me. I want Nicks to stay a Giant. sigh....:confused:

GameTime
07-11-2013, 12:35 PM
good thing being "elite" or not has zero bearing on wether you can help your team win SBs.....

"elite" is only good for the individual to a degree. You dont have to be elite to be a winner.....

Ntegrase96
07-11-2013, 12:40 PM
good thing being "elite" or not has zero bearing on wether you can help your team win SBs.....

"elite" is only good for the individual to a degree. You dont have to be elite to be a winner.....

Right. The team with far and away the best WR in the NFL went 4-12 last year and the Cardinals started 4-0 and went 1-11 the rest of the way with Fitzgerald.

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 12:44 PM
So wow , we have 2 "elite" WRs on this team, legit!
Don't forget Barden, he has elite height.

Moke
07-11-2013, 12:48 PM
Don't forget Barden, he has elite height.

I think if he was healthy for once, he'd have Nicks numbers. - Elite.

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Who is "people"? Everyone?

Rodgers' continued high level of play in the absence of his go-to receiver and o-line is what finally sold me on him.
Maybe not you but

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/446014-why-aaron-rodgers-will-be-the-best-qb-in-2010and-not-just-fantasy

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/574411-aaron-rodgers-the-packers-quarterback-is-elite-and-everyone-has-to-take-notice


And this one was right before his SB season:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/preview10/team/_/name/gb

Flip Empty
07-11-2013, 02:34 PM
Maybe not you but

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/446014-why-aaron-rodgers-will-be-the-best-qb-in-2010and-not-just-fantasy

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/574411-aaron-rodgers-the-packers-quarterback-is-elite-and-everyone-has-to-take-notice


And this one was right before his SB season:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/preview10/team/_/name/gb
Okay, I don't click Bleacher Report links. As for the ESPN article: "Aaron Rodgers is on the brink of elite status". I only skimmed that article but it seemed they were incredibly positive about Rodgers but hadn't yet anointed him as the chosen one.

LeFlume
07-11-2013, 02:45 PM
What exacty does it mean to be an "elite" player? Is Victor Cruz a great player? Damn straight he is. "Elite"? That is a BS word for the media...

Kruunch
07-11-2013, 02:48 PM
Cruz sucks.

/thread

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 02:53 PM
Okay, I don't click Bleacher Report links. As for the ESPN article: "Aaron Rodgers is on the brink of elite status". I only skimmed that article but it seemed they were incredibly positive about Rodgers but hadn't yet anointed him as the chosen one.You don't have to click anything. I just showed you a couple links from 2010 where people were already putting Rodgers on a pedestal. It was definitely talked about.

Moke
07-11-2013, 03:08 PM
You don't have to click anything. I just showed you a couple links from 2010 where people were already putting Rodgers on a pedestal. It was definitely talked about.

Great, that must mean a lot of people put Rodgers on the pedestal. Nice point.

FBomb
07-11-2013, 03:13 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XIkg8rt693k/Tyt75--ikrI/AAAAAAAEnxU/aPlI8XAdO9Y/s1600/Yawning+Humor+fun+pictures+(8).jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=aP-RZCLfgeZboM&tbnid=L47F4elO_l38fM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffunny-picz-images.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F02%2Freal-funny-yawning-images.html&ei=zfXeUYTVCtHJ4AOC4YGABA&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNH0MINPuBd7NaDT3W2yDEvuVmWJbQ&ust=1373652787099713)

EliDaMANning
07-11-2013, 03:44 PM
Great, that must mean a lot of people put Rodgers on the pedestal. Nice point.ok.

AllHailEli
07-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Victor Cruz is an overachiever, plain and simple. I hate the term elite, it means everything is elite including elite money. Ask Flacco.

danielboone
07-12-2013, 11:38 PM
See this is what I don't understand: With Nicks, you refer to his physicality and ball skills as a measure of his status, yet with Cruz it's pure numbers?

Stats only tell part of the story. e.g. Eli and Carson Palmer put up comparable numbers last season, yet everyone knows they're light years apart.

Now I'm not comparing Victor Cruz to Carson Palmer, I just don't feel that statistics on their own can be used to gauge a player's quality. There are just way too many variables to consider.


And I don't understand your reluctance to use numbers to judge quality. After all the most important thing is winning and winning is all based on having more numbers (points) than your opponent. People here go ga-ga over Eli because he's had two Superbowl runs (to one of which Victor Cruz made tremendous contributions) . That just means his team made more numbers (points) than his opponents . In fact, Eli's mechanics are comparable to Palmer's and forget about his athleticism. If we were to base it on "physicality", you'd have to choose Palmer over Eli. Is that what you want to base your definition of elite on? Quality should be based on productivity. It's the only thing you can get a real handle on. Physicality is a subjective appreciation. Some guys can be productive even if they are not the most physically endowed. Call it heart. Call it whatever.

This issue about productivity also comes up when people say it is easier to make yards when playing the slot. Oh, really? Then why not have them both play inside? And no slot receiver can ever be considered as the best receiver in the game even though he might have the best numbers? Why not? In my book, productivity should be the main consideration. Forget where the guy is playing. Is he making the yards?

As to taking 40% of a player's career to be indicative of who he is rather than taking the other 60%, that seems to be what somebody would do who wanted to prove a previous prejudicial judgment. (seems rather a strange thing for a Giants fan to do to a Giants player). We should then take the worst 40% of everybody's career to compare to? The non-judgmental thing to do is take 100% of everybody's career.

Rusty192
07-13-2013, 12:07 AM
And I don't understand your reluctance to use numbers to judge quality. After all the most important thing is winning and winning is all based on having more numbers (points) than your opponent. People here go ga-ga over Eli because he's had two Superbowl runs (to one of which Victor Cruz made tremendous contributions) . That just means his team made more numbers (points) than his opponents . In fact, Eli's mechanics are comparable to Palmer's and forget about his athleticism. If we were to base it on "physicality", you'd have to choose Palmer over Eli. Is that what you want to base your definition of elite on? Quality should be based on productivity. It's the only thing you can get a real handle on. Physicality is a subjective appreciation. Some guys can be productive even if they are not the most physically endowed. Call it heart. Call it whatever.

This issue about productivity also comes up when people say it is easier to make yards when playing the slot. Oh, really? Then why not have them both play inside? And no slot receiver can ever be considered as the best receiver in the game even though he might have the best numbers? Why not? In my book, productivity should be the main consideration. Forget where the guy is playing. Is he making the yards?

As to taking 40% of a player's career to be indicative of who he is rather than taking the other 60%, that seems to be what somebody would do who wanted to prove a previous prejudicial judgment. (seems rather a strange thing for a Giants fan to do to a Giants player). We should then take the worst 40% of everybody's career to compare to? The non-judgmental thing to do is take 100% of everybody's career.wow tearing down Eli to prop up Cruz? That's sad.

Antwuan
07-13-2013, 12:16 AM
Yes Victor Cruz Is An Elite WR.

Antwuan
07-13-2013, 12:26 AM
Cruz is an elite inside guy but not an elite outside guy. He was on the outside but now he's on the inside which is a slap in the face.

Victor Cruz actually does do a lot of damage on the outside not just the inside, I don't see Victor Cruz as just strickly a slot WR because I think he is more than that.

danielboone
07-13-2013, 12:29 AM
wow tearing down Eli to prop up Cruz? That's sad.

Perhaps I didn't make myself understood. I wasn't tearing down Eli. My point is that Eli is elite based on his productivity not on his physicality.

BTW, look at the other thread where some of the same people are making light of Eli's numbers. I really do start to wonder whether they are really Giants fans.

Flip Empty
07-13-2013, 12:35 AM
And I don't understand your reluctance to use numbers to judge quality. After all the most important thing is winning and winning is all based on having more numbers (points) than your opponent. People here go ga-ga over Eli because he's had two Superbowl runs (to one of which Victor Cruz made tremendous contributions) . That just means his team made more numbers (points) than his opponents . In fact, Eli's mechanics are comparable to Palmer's and forget about his athleticism. If we were to base it on "physicality", you'd have to choose Palmer over Eli. Is that what you want to base your definition of elite on? Quality should be based on productivity. It's the only thing you can get a real handle on. Physicality is a subjective appreciation. Some guys can be productive even if they are not the most physically endowed. Call it heart. Call it whatever.

This issue about productivity also comes up when people say it is easier to make yards when playing the slot. Oh, really? Then why not have them both play inside? And no slot receiver can ever be considered as the best receiver in the game even though he might have the best numbers? Why not? In my book, productivity should be the main consideration. Forget where the guy is playing. Is he making the yards?

As to taking 40% of a player's career to be indicative of who he is rather than taking the other 60%, that seems to be what somebody would do who wanted to prove a previous prejudicial judgment. (seems rather a strange thing for a Giants fan to do to a Giants player). We should then take the worst 40% of everybody's career to compare to? The non-judgmental thing to do is take 100% of everybody's career.
That's not what I said at all. You've actually gone and proven my point here: You've taken a single post out of context and based your entire argument on it. It's no different to forming an opinion on a player based purely on stats.

Where did I express my reluctance to use numbers to judge quality? Nowhere. I said that numbers alone are not an accurate gauge of a player's quality.

My definition of "elite", as outlined in this very thread was: "To me the term refers to the top three or so players at every position".
There are a handful of guys at every position whose talent noticeably exceeds everyone else's. There's a drop-off between them and the others. That, to me, is what makes a player "elite".

Would you say Victor Cruz is of comparable talent to Calvin Johnson? Of course not. Therefore, (to me) he is not "elite". He is not one of the very best at his position.

Tony Romo finished with more yards than Tom Brady last season - does that make him "elite"? No fricken way.


My point is that Eli is elite based on his productivity not on his physicality.
My "physicality" remark was soley in response to the poster who cited those attributes of Nicks' game in another thread as evidence of his quality, because he doesn't have the numbers to back him up. I was pointing out the hypocrisy there rather than suggesting it's the sole means of assessing a player's stature. I've no idea why you went and applied that to different players who play a completely different position.

Rusty192
07-13-2013, 12:40 AM
Perhaps I didn't make myself understood. I wasn't tearing down Eli. My point is that Eli is elite based on his productivity not on his physicality.
Yes, but saying you'd take Carson Palmer -- in any capacity, over E is pretty much a diss my friend lol.
BTW, look at the other thread where some of the same people are making light of Eli's numbers. I really do start to wonder whether they are really Giants fans.Indeed.

giantsfan420
07-13-2013, 03:26 AM
rustys on the ball tonight lol

danielboone
07-13-2013, 07:41 AM
Yes, but saying you'd take Carson Palmer -- in any capacity, over E is pretty much a diss my friend lol.Indeed.

Again I am not understood. I didn't say I would take Palmer over Eli. I said people who rate physicality over productivity would. That's not me.

danielboone
07-13-2013, 07:51 AM
I said that numbers alone are not an accurate gauge of a player's quality.



So maybe we should base winning and losing on some judges giving points to the teams on the basis of which of them showed superior talent? Like in diving.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I'm sure you would make a great judge since you can tell me exactly who has superior talent. But most fans would rather see who can make the most yards and the most points in a game.

penguinfarmer
07-13-2013, 08:09 AM
Roanoke should reprimand himself for using the "E" word.

RoanokeFan
07-13-2013, 08:12 AM
Roanoke should reprimand himself for using the "E" word.

I don't write 'em, I just post 'em. But knowing how they will turn out, maybe you're right. Consider me banned.

Flip Empty
07-13-2013, 08:12 AM
So maybe we should base winning and losing on some judges giving points to the teams on the basis of which of them showed superior talent? Like in diving.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I'm sure you would make a great judge since you can tell me exactly who has superior talent. But most fans would rather see who can make the most yards and the most points in a game.
So basically you're saying that, yes, Tony Romo is "elite" because he scores a lot of points?

Buddy333
07-13-2013, 08:19 AM
Based on fantasy stats a lot of guys are better than some guys that have actually won a ring.

Flip Empty
07-13-2013, 08:36 AM
Based on fantasy stats a lot of guys are better than some guys that have actually won a ring.
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make. Look at Tony Romo: he outscores Eli Manning most years, yet anyone with more than a glancing interest in the game knows that he is not of Manning's caliber.


I don't write 'em, I just post 'em. But knowing how they will turn out, maybe you're right. Consider me banned.
Perhaps "elite" should be added to the swear filter.

GameTime
07-13-2013, 10:32 AM
how about....Cruz is an elite receiver for the NYG.....

derekunion28
07-13-2013, 11:54 AM
i wana see a full seaon now thjat teams know what vitor can do and a healthy nicks......first season he was a unknown and second nicks was hurt

bigblue58
07-13-2013, 12:10 PM
Once again I ask....WHO CARES? The question of "elite" is a tired meaningless debate that has no bearing on anything real.
If he's not considered elite, does he have to give the money back? I mean, come on....this debate is stupid!
Eli has more SB rings and more SB MVP trophies than EVERY QB in the league considered to be far and away more "elite" than he is. So, in the end, what does it prove??? Nothing!
All I ask is that my G-Men be a really good team and make it back to the post season.
We won two SB's in 5 years with a team made up mostly of players who wouldn't even be in the elite conversation. We get to keep the Lombardi's regardless.

Rudyy
07-13-2013, 12:13 PM
Once again I ask....WHO CARES? The question of "elite" is a tired meaningless debate that has no bearing on anything real.If he's not considered elite, does he have to give the money back? I mean, come on....this debate is stupid!Eli has more SB rings and more SB MVP trophies than EVERY QB in the league considered to be far and away more "elite" than he is. So, in the end, what does it prove??? Nothing!Except Tom Brady.

bigblue58
07-13-2013, 12:26 PM
Except Tom Brady.

Yeah, he's the one exception, but he hasn't won a SB in 9 years and Eli's 2 SB MVP's were against Brady's Patriots!