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View Full Version : Eli Manning IS AN ELITE QUARTERBACK ....HE GOT US HERE



Razur
01-01-2012, 11:40 PM
The Defense HAS finally wolen up,,but ELI,,,saved this season, by keeping us alive alll season,,

THANK YOU GIANTS,,,,GOOD LUCK IN THE POST SEASON...THANK YOU...

Razur
01-01-2012, 11:40 PM
The Defense HAS finally wolen up,,but ELI,,,saved this season, by keeping us alive alll season,,

THANK YOU GIANTS,,,,GOOD LUCK IN THE POST SEASON...THANK YOU...

MikeSherrard
01-01-2012, 11:42 PM
THANK YOU ELI! YOU ARE ONE COOL CUSTOMER

Razur
01-01-2012, 11:44 PM
THANK YOU ELI!* YOU ARE ONE COOL CUSTOMER

HAVE A DRINK ON ME BRO!!!!

plaxattack17
01-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Eli= Elite...he was amazing in the clutch this year- i dont think amazing does him justice in the 4th quarter...superhuman is closer!

egyptian420
01-01-2012, 11:48 PM
That deep one to Cruz after intense pressure was the definition of CLUTCH.....spelled in all caps in the dictionary, separate from clutch

Down-lifer
01-01-2012, 11:49 PM
Manning is unreal!

Down-lifer
01-01-2012, 11:50 PM
That deep one to Cruz after intense pressure was the definition of CLUTCH.....spelled in all caps in the dictionary, separate from clutch
That play was just amazing!

giantsfan420
01-01-2012, 11:51 PM
some of the plays he made were downright amazing

Voldamort
01-01-2012, 11:53 PM
Way to go Eli you are the man!!!Now take it home!!! Prince of the City!!!! The Great Eli Manning!!!

BornLegend
01-01-2012, 11:53 PM
some of the plays he made were downright amazingYeah he was spinning out of tackles, scrambling, escaping pressure and the whole 9. That's what I like to see. Cruz is amazing too... that boy good.

Morehead State
01-01-2012, 11:54 PM
Victor Cruz reminds me so much of Steve Smith (Carolina). Goes up and fights for the ball as well as anyone in the league.</P>


Plus, Eli made a great throw to Cruz going accross the middle of the field down deep in Dallas territory.</P>


I can't tell you how happy I am for Victor Cruz from Umass (20 miles up the road from here)</P>


Its a great story about a great kid.</P>

Voldamort
01-01-2012, 11:55 PM
The guy has ICE in his veins!!! CLUTCH!!!

Razur
01-01-2012, 11:55 PM
The Defense HAS finally wolen up,,but ELI,,,saved this season, by keeping us alive alll season,,

THANK YOU GIANTS,,,,GOOD LUCK IN THE POST SEASON...THANK YOU...

His poise under pressure,,,I am admitting..I WAS A STUPID PANIC-er...Eli has ALWAYS maintained his composure and orchestrated nothing less than a MASTERY of focus and control...the 2011 season,,is all ELI....

Mr Excitement
01-01-2012, 11:55 PM
Eli had a super year!!..How many yards did he end up with?

Down-lifer
01-01-2012, 11:58 PM
very close to 5,000.... not sure exact

BornLegend
01-01-2012, 11:58 PM
Victor Cruz reminds me so much of Steve Smith (Carolina).* Goes up and fights for the ball as well as anyone in the league.</P>


Plus, Eli made a great throw to Cruz going accross the middle of the field down deep in Dallas territory.</P>


I can't tell you how happy I am for Victor Cruz from Umass (20 miles up the road from here)</P>


Its a great story about a great kid.</P>No Victor Cruz, no playoffs. Our new #1 receiver. I was saying the same thing as far as Steve Smith.

ny06
01-01-2012, 11:59 PM
His pocket presence is amazing. </P>


He knows when to take a sack, and when to throw it away. </P>


</P>

egyptian420
01-01-2012, 11:59 PM
Eli had a super year!!..How many yards did he end up with?


Yea I want to know too, I actually want to know how much him and Cruz have and their ranking amongst the league leaders...Cruz was 3rd before this game, how much did he need to pass Megatron

Razur
01-02-2012, 12:00 AM
very close to 5,000.... not sure exact
i THINK HE WINDS UP WITH 77 YARDS SHORT OF 5000

but..jayzus ...thats absolutely ELITE

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:00 AM
His pocket presence is amazing. </P>


He knows when to take a sack, and when to throw it away. </P>


</P>


</P>


I'm seeing the subtle movement in the pocket to create time. I'm NOT seeing the panic I used to see.</P>


Its a big step for Eli.</P>

nYg24
01-02-2012, 12:01 AM
the ELITE talk has gotta stop, can't these guys just play without being labeled?

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:01 AM
Eli had a super year!!..How many yards did he end up with?


Yea I want to know too, I actually want to know how much him and Cruz have and their ranking amongst the league leaders...Cruz was 3rd before this game, how much did he need to pass Megatron
</P>


Cruz ended up 3rd in the NFL is receiving yards.</P>

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:03 AM
the ELITE talk has gotta stop, can't these guys just play without being labeled?

i agree

Razur
01-02-2012, 12:03 AM
the ELITE talk has gotta stop, can't these guys just play without being labeled?

Look,,,the "label" thing is a press/news tag..but..the defense of it is more to his CREDIT against his critics....

simms56
01-02-2012, 12:04 AM
Eli had the best year of any Giant QB....EVER. Enough said.

Big Blue 418
01-02-2012, 12:04 AM
I am going to say something that many will shake their heads . If Eli played under the Pats system he would be as good if not better than Brady . I don't know if I would say the same about Brady here

bELIeve_in_Giants
01-02-2012, 12:06 AM
Eli had the best year of any Giant QB....EVER. Enough said.
</P>


+1</P>

pheonix73
01-02-2012, 12:07 AM
Oh a win against the cowgirls makes me feel like a kid again !!!!!!!!

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:07 AM
I am going to say something that many will shake their heads . If Eli played under the Pats system he would be as good if not better than Brady . I don't know if I would say the same about Brady here</P>


If Brady was here, we would adjust our system to fit his ability. Just as they did in NE.</P>


You guys with these silly points.</P>

VelocityVirus
01-02-2012, 12:09 AM
Eli finished with 4910 yards, Victor finished with 1545. If Eli didn't have those couple of slump games he would have been well over 5000 yards.....unreal to even think about.

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 12:09 AM
I am going to say something that many will shake their heads . If Eli played under the Pats system he would be as good if not better than Brady . I don't know if I would say the same about Brady here</P>


If Brady was here, we would adjust our system to fit his ability.* Just as they did in NE.</P>


You guys with these silly points.</P>

nothing silly about it. i agree with him. not bc he's better or anything, just bc the system NE runs compared to ours. they pass non stop and have solid O line and have personnel matchups on almost every play.

but how bout eli manning.

C1010
01-02-2012, 12:09 AM
very close to 5,000.... not sure exact

4,800...around there maybe. Eli is Elite, there is no other way to say it.

nycsportzfan
01-02-2012, 12:11 AM
The Defense HAS finally wolen up,,but ELI,,,saved this season, by keeping us alive alll season,,

THANK YOU GIANTS,,,,GOOD LUCK IN THE POST SEASON...THANK YOU... Eli was a maniac today and had one of his better seasons overall this yr I've always said hes solid and thats pretty good 2 me I still think i'd like less big mistakes and a tad more consistency before i say "elite' I don't say "elite" easy U gotta be top of the top Either way Dude was "Elite" today thats for sure! Nice season for Eli Anyone want Falcon for dinner next weekend?

BornLegend
01-02-2012, 12:14 AM
You Eli fanatics need to stop making this win JUST about Eli. I'm out of this thread and going to celebrate a GIANTS win. You remember the GIANTS right? LT, Harry Carson, Simms, Hostetler, Bavaro, Strahan and those boys?

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:15 AM
I am going to say something that many will shake their heads . If Eli played under the Pats system he would be as good if not better than Brady . I don't know if I would say the same about Brady here</P>


If Brady was here, we would adjust our system to fit his ability. Just as they did in NE.</P>


You guys with these silly points.</P>


nothing silly about it. i agree with him. not bc he's better or anything, just bc the system NE runs compared to ours. they pass non stop and have solid O line and have personnel matchups on almost every play. but how bout eli manning.</P>


You are missing my point. When you have a good QB you adjust your scheme to address his strengths. Both the Giants and Pats do it. Brady's best strength to me are the clutch passes on third down. His ability to throw the ball exactly where it needs to be, and where only the pass catcher can catch it. Plus, NO ONE stands taller in the pocket amid a pass rush than Brady. He is a truly, all time great player.</P>


Eli has had a tremendous season. By far his best. He kept his int's down to 16 which historically for him is very good. especially considering the amount of passes he had to throw this season.</P>


But Brady.......... Thats another level altogether.</P>

amdownwitjpp
01-02-2012, 12:17 AM
Alot of ppl do not no football.Our system is not designed for this we r a run first team u put Eli in a dome in a pas first system he always would do these type stats,bac in '08 Brady went down Pats still win 10 or 11 those systems are more passer friendly this season our running game was a liability,causing us 2 lean on Eli.Normally if Eli throws for over 300yds we lose or come from behind.Giant football is run and play d not shoot outs

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:19 AM
Alot of ppl do not no football.Our system is not designed for this we r a run first team u put Eli in a dome in a pas first system he always would do these type stats,bac in '08 Brady went down Pats still win 10 or 11 those systems are more passer friendly this season our running game was a liability,causing us 2 lean on Eli.Normally if Eli throws for over 300yds we lose or come from behind.Giant football is run and play d not shoot outs</P>


We don't text here. Treat your fellow posters with a little respect for God's sake.</P>

TheReal_LT
01-02-2012, 12:21 AM
The Defense HAS finally wolen up,,but ELI,,,saved this season, by keeping us alive alll season,,

THANK YOU GIANTS,,,,GOOD LUCK IN THE POST SEASON...THANK YOU...

His poise under pressure,,,I am admitting..I WAS A STUPID PANIC-er...Eli has ALWAYS maintained his composure and orchestrated nothing less than a MASTERY of focus and control...the 2011 season,,is all ELI....

good thing Eli doesn't panic like us fans....LOL

Jobarulz
01-02-2012, 12:24 AM
So happy he's our quarterback. Puts up big numbers and comes through when it counts the most. The one throw down the field to Cruz and then when he stepped up in the pocket to hit Nicks to ice the game. Giants got great momentum now for the playoffs.

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:27 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 12:31 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez.* he is ranked 16th in comp percentage.** 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated)* his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.*

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.


6 gw drives, most in giants history
15 4th quarter td's most in nfl history

two of the most important things a qb can do

gmen0820
01-02-2012, 12:31 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.

mike kennedy
01-02-2012, 12:37 AM
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Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:37 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite". He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year. Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers. So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:40 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.


6 gw drives, most in giants history
15 4th quarter td's most in nfl history

two of the most important things a qb can do

id agree its not all about stats. mostly i think it was elis best season becasue he has more command over things and isnt afraid of the hits and stepping up in the pocket.

just giving an example of the types of years other qb;s are having. and how the nfl wants this air show to succeed.

so 20 years ago 4000 yards and 20 td's was a lot, its not today. thus not fair to break these old timers records imo.

Jobarulz
01-02-2012, 12:40 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez.* he is ranked 16th in comp percentage.** 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated)* his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.*

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.


Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

TrueBlue10
01-02-2012, 12:41 AM
Rooting for the Giants since Eli came to town has been something special. Some of us just recognized it earlier than others.

That said, it is a three-headed monster that wins our games. Cruz and JPP are right there carrying the team along with Eli. There is talent among the other 50 players, but for whatever reason, it is those three guys that have gotten us this far.

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:42 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.


Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.

gmen0820
01-02-2012, 12:43 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite".** He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year.* Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers.* So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>Top five is elite I'd say.


One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 12:46 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite". He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year. Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers. So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</P>


Really?</P>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year. I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective. It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</P>

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:50 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</p>


Someone please define 'Elite". He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year. Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</p>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers. So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</p>


What is elite?</p>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</p>


Really?</p>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year. I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective. It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</p>
yeah matt ryan and matt stafford are not elite in my book.

gmen0820
01-02-2012, 12:51 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite".** He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year.* Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers.* So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</P>


Really?</P>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year.***** I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective.* It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</P>Well that's why I said elite this year. Prior to this, Eli was not elite. Anyone who would say that, I really can't take seriously. I'm just glad that Eli is no longer overpaid, I think he's played into his salary this year and that was my biggest knock on him.

gmen0820
01-02-2012, 12:52 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</p>


Someone please define 'Elite".** He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year.* Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</p>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers.* So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</p>


What is elite?</p>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</p>


Really?</p>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year.***** I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective.* It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</p>
yeah matt ryan and matt stafford are not elite in my book.
Stafford has been nasty this year though.

Harooni
01-02-2012, 12:54 AM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</p>


Someone please define 'Elite". He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year. Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</p>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers. So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</p>


What is elite?</p>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</p>


Really?</p>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year. I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective. It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</p>
yeah matt ryan and matt stafford are not elite in my book.
Stafford has been nasty this year though.
yeah 41 td's is sick.

yatitle
01-02-2012, 01:09 AM
Victor Cruz reminds me so much of Steve Smith (Carolina).* Goes up and fights for the ball as well as anyone in the league.</P>


Plus, Eli made a great throw to Cruz going accross the middle of the field down deep in Dallas territory.</P>


I can't tell you how happy I am for Victor Cruz from Umass (20 miles up the road from here)</P>


Its a great story about a great kid.</P>

Eli's 2 best throws of the night were the Cruz one you described where Eli is falling forward and got it into Cruz and the bullet he threw to Nicks across the middle that Nicks took down inside the 5.

yatitle
01-02-2012, 01:20 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez.* he is ranked 16th in comp percentage.** 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated)* his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.*

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.




Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead)

Harooni
01-02-2012, 01:45 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.




Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's

RobCarpenter
01-02-2012, 01:54 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's
</P>


LMAO. Morooni and MS, give it up already you haters. Eli has notjust suggested you eat crow, he shoved the whole corw right down your throats. You two clowns have been drowning in your own hate all year. Repent!</P>


Go Giants! I root for the QB wearing Blue!</P>


</P>


</P>

NovaGGiants
01-02-2012, 02:00 AM
Scary harooni,

It's been a long time since i've visited these boards but I think you gave eli an backhanded compliment, real progress from the past. ;)

RobCarpenter
01-02-2012, 02:06 AM
Scary harooni,

It's been a long time since i've visited these boards but I think you gave eli an backhanded compliment, real progress from the past. ;)
</P>


Morooni only knows how to be passive-agressive. He doesn't want to take life straight on. </P>


Oh wait, it's time for some Morooni Tiki, Ben or Riverscomment...LOL!</P>


</P>

Harooni
01-02-2012, 02:35 AM
umm i never said eli was tied with sanchez for overall QB. so plz check you eli insecurities at the door, mother hens.

gumby742
01-02-2012, 08:18 AM
He is an elite QB THIS YEAR. One "elite" year doesn't make him elite. It's going to have to take another year to convince me and probably most other non giant fans.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 09:03 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's
</P>


LMAO. Morooni and MS, give it up already you haters. Eli has notjust suggested you eat crow, he shoved the whole corw right down your throats. You two clowns have been drowning in your own hate all year. Repent!</P>


Go Giants! I root for the QB wearing Blue!</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>


Stinking Morehead hater!!!</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 09:07 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's
</p>


LMAO. Morooni and MS, give it up already you haters. Eli has notjust suggested you eat crow, he shoved the whole corw right down your throats. You two clowns have been drowning in your own hate all year. Repent!</p>


Go Giants! I root for the QB wearing Blue!</p>


</p>


</p>


</p>


Stinking Morehead hater!!!</p>

Eli the Elite

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 09:12 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's
</P>


LMAO. Morooni and MS, give it up already you haters. Eli has notjust suggested you eat crow, he shoved the whole corw right down your throats. You two clowns have been drowning in your own hate all year. Repent!</P>


Go Giants! I root for the QB wearing Blue!</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>


Stinking Morehead hater!!!</P>




Eli the Elite


</P>


We go from a Morehead hater in robcarpenter to a Moorehead lover in Matt.</P>


</P>


Lets face it Matt...Eli played much better this year. You simply can't ignore it anymore. His pocket awareness and calmness has significantly improved. </P>


Admit that I was right. You'll feel better. </P>

Irish42
01-02-2012, 09:24 AM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 09:26 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez. he is ranked 16th in comp percentage. 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated) his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Eli had 29 TD's, Sanchez had 26. Do some research.

its not all updated on nfl.com, ok so eli is 8th sanchez 9th.
You not baiting me Harooni though you got others. Eli's go the the Pro Bowl and the talking heads are talking if Jets should give up on Sanchez. But 1 is 8th and 1 is 9th. You are consistently the funniest guy on the board (apologies to Moorehead) thats just in td's
</p>


LMAO. Morooni and MS, give it up already you haters. Eli has notjust suggested you eat crow, he shoved the whole corw right down your throats. You two clowns have been drowning in your own hate all year. Repent!</p>


Go Giants! I root for the QB wearing Blue!</p>


</p>


</p>


</p>


Stinking Morehead hater!!!</p>




Eli the Elite


</p>


We go from a Morehead hater in robcarpenter to a Moorehead lover in Matt.</p>


</p>


Lets face it Matt...Eli played much better this year. You simply can't ignore it anymore. His pocket awareness and calmness has significantly improved. </p>


Admit that I was right. You'll feel better. </p>

the ig'nant moorehead seeps through every once in a while and it happens again today.

I said he naturally got better as he does every year. I say the amount hes gotten better is over exaggerated. You didn't give his play enough credit last year and you are basing your arguments off of results.

Thee thread backs my argument. When the mormon starts naming plays: Moorehead plays - i know i've won

OrangeGiant
01-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Eli is Elite. Period, end of story. He said it at the beginning of the year and he proved it. Give him the credit.

Voldamort
01-02-2012, 09:36 AM
Eli had a great year with that o-line,no running game way to many drops,new slot and te. What a year great job!!!

Bashum_Blue
01-02-2012, 09:37 AM
He is an elite QB THIS YEAR. One "elite" year doesn't make him elite. It's going to have to take another year to convince me and probably most other non giant fans.

Hey Gumbnuts, I believe there is a Superbowl ring that would disagree with you.

Tomigooner
01-02-2012, 09:37 AM
I think considering him anything but elite is really stupid.</P>


He proved himself when team needed him, did amazingly well under great deal of pressure when it really mattered. He is main reason Giants are in playoffs.</P>


I must say I was really surprised when I saw it is even discussed, I never considered him anything but.</P>


Other fans are alsoaware of that, maybe they just don't want to admit it.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 09:44 AM
He is an elite QB THIS YEAR. One "elite" year doesn't make him elite. It's going to have to take another year to convince me and probably most other non giant fans.

Hey Gumbnuts, I believe there is a Superbowl ring that would disagree with you.

and since we're speaking in terms of fans - i would say the pro-bowl suggests otherwise in Gumby's OP

He got voted in over Cam, Stafford, and Romo who all had great years and pro-bowls are all about the the fans opinions

bottom line is that once the media takes ahold of something, the sheep will follow. Eli is legit - time to let this argument go

HartLock
01-02-2012, 09:47 AM
Theirs so much more than just numbers. If your just looking at his numbers then your missing the big picture. Eli is elite. And I believe him to be the most clutch QB in the NFL right now.

C1010
01-02-2012, 09:47 AM
Eli ended the regular season with 4,933 yards. Thats quite impressive!

HartLock
01-02-2012, 09:57 AM
Eli is ranked 8th in td's tied with sanchez.* he is ranked 16th in comp percentage.** 6th in yards. (maybe 5th, if that wasnt updated)* his QBR top 9 or 8.

let face it todays NFL is geared toward the pass with the rule changes.*

not to say eli didnt have one of his best seasons, because he did.
Wow this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. You need to look past the numbers to realize how great he has performed.

rebelfan1966
01-02-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't care much for the label "Elite" because it is subjective......

Delicreep
01-02-2012, 10:16 AM
I would make these observations:
<ul> it was no more than 2 years ago that opposing DC's would literally say, "the game plan is to make Eli beat us". Now it's "contain the damage Eli will do".
Opposing teams had the idea that, "Eli can be had", and he will make mistakes has been replaced with a sense of dread if the MOFO gets the ball in his hands late in the 4th. Pressure Eli? Guy has a pocket sense that rivals ANY QB in the league...period. Reads a D at the line as well as any other QB in the league.
[/list]

Elite?
</p>

I still have a hard time saying yes, but I have an even harder time coming up with why he isn't.</p>


</p>

Tomigooner
01-02-2012, 10:18 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/10269/eli-manning-elite-nfl-qb-indeed</P>


Eli Manning: 'Elite' NFL QB indeed</P>

gmen0820
01-02-2012, 11:21 AM
and since we're speaking in terms of fans - i would say the pro-bowl suggests otherwise in Gumby's OPWhat? The Pro Bowl is a year to year thing, and Gumby said he had an elite year.

And in terms of fans, Eli came fifth in NFC QB votes.

lttaylor56
01-02-2012, 11:34 AM
I can't say enough about how well Eli manages games. His jump on that fumble last night was epic. This team made the right choice with Eli.

Roosevelt
01-02-2012, 11:38 AM
I would make these observations:
<ul> it was no more than 2 years ago that opposing DC's would literally say, "the game plan is to make Eli beat us". Now it's "contain the damage Eli will do".
Opposing teams had the idea that, "Eli can be had", and he will make mistakes has been replaced with a sense of dread if the MOFO gets the ball in his hands late in the 4th. Pressure Eli? Guy has a pocket sense that rivals ANY QB in the league...period. Reads a D at the line as well as any other QB in the league.
[/list]

Elite?
</p>

I still have a hard time saying yes, but I have an even harder time coming up with why he isn't.</p>

I have to agree with you, although I probably don't rate him as high on your last point.

He's had an amazing season, and who knows, he may get even better. That's pretty crazy.

yoeddy
01-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Eli finished with 4910 yards, Victor finished with 1545. If Eli didn't have those couple of slump games he would have been well over 5000 yards.....unreal to even think about.


If Nicks doesn't drop 2 easy ones, Eli would have been over 5000...

Sarcasman
01-02-2012, 12:48 PM
Victor Cruz reminds me so much of Steve Smith (Carolina).* Goes up and fights for the ball as well as anyone in the league.</P>


Plus, Eli made a great throw to Cruz going accross the middle of the field down deep in Dallas territory.</P>


I can't tell you how happy I am for Victor Cruz from Umass (20 miles up the road from here)</P>


Its a great story about a great kid.</P>


That was the best throw of the night, Cruz made a great play there as well.

The hail mary will get all the attention but that throw was great.

The hail mary catch by Cruz was pretty great in that it was just a chuck by Manning...the only way it works is if Cruz makes that play on the ball.

Sarcasman
01-02-2012, 01:42 PM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite".** He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year.* Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers.* So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>


Top five is elite I'd say. One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.</P>


Really?</P>


Plus Peyton didn't play this year.***** I don't know....5th or 6th best isn't elite to me, but thats all subjective.* It depends on how low you want the standards to be.</P>Well that's why I said elite this year. Prior to this, Eli was not elite. Anyone who would say that, I really can't take seriously. I'm just glad that Eli is no longer overpaid, I think he's played into his salary this year and that was my biggest knock on him.


He actually never was based on market. One could certainly argue definitively that he was based on personal expectations though.

Sarcasman
01-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Eli finished with 4910 yards, Victor finished with 1545. If Eli didn't have those couple of slump games he would have been well over 5000 yards.....unreal to even think about.


If Nicks doesn't drop 2 easy ones, Eli would have been over 5000...

And if Cruz doesn't make a great play on the ball last night on the 44 yarder...

or if he doesn't turn that 7 yarder into 99 last week...

That ain't how it works. He gets the credit for those, which means you don't get to arbitrarily subtract drops etc... it's all part of it, for better or for worse.

burier
01-02-2012, 01:55 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 02:01 PM
Eli finished with 4910 yards, Victor finished with 1545. If Eli didn't have those couple of slump games he would have been well over 5000 yards.....unreal to even think about.


If Nicks doesn't drop 2 easy ones, Eli would have been over 5000...

And if Cruz doesn't make a great play on the ball last night on the 44 yarder...

or if he doesn't turn that 7 yarder into 99 last week...

That ain't how it works. He gets the credit for those, which means you don't get to arbitrarily subtract drops etc... it's all part of it, for better or for worse.

there is something to be said about the amount of dropped balls that we had this year. Somebody posted a stat that we led the league again

Sarcasman
01-02-2012, 02:02 PM
He has been elite this year and has been a big part of our success. Kudos to Eli, Cruz, and Nicks this year.</P>


Someone please define 'Elite".** He was the fifth or sixth best QB in the league this year.* Thats fine with me, but I just don't know what standard anyone is using here.</P>


He wasn't as good as Brady, Brees, Stafford and Rodgers.* So for arguments sake he's around 5th.</P>


What is elite?</P>Top five is elite I'd say.


One thing we can all agree on, Eli was never at this level before in his life.


Assuming we're not counting 2009.

I mean he threw about 5 more passes a game this year and averaged a half a yard more per attempt, but otherwise the numbers aren't that dissimilar.

All this elite talk is just so much crap. He's one of the top QBs in the league and has been for years.

Arguing about whether he's 4th or 7th any given year is stupid IMO.

Sarcasman
01-02-2012, 02:04 PM
Eli finished with 4910 yards, Victor finished with 1545. If Eli didn't have those couple of slump games he would have been well over 5000 yards.....unreal to even think about.


If Nicks doesn't drop 2 easy ones, Eli would have been over 5000...

And if Cruz doesn't make a great play on the ball last night on the 44 yarder...

or if he doesn't turn that 7 yarder into 99 last week...

That ain't how it works. He gets the credit for those, which means you don't get to arbitrarily subtract drops etc... it's all part of it, for better or for worse.

there is something to be said about the amount of dropped balls that we had this year. Somebody posted a stat that we led the league again


I'm not arguing that.

I simply said it's a "take the good with the bad" kind of thing, that's all.

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 02:21 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.

that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all.

and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run.

08-10ints
09-14ints
2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined.
2011-16 ints.

every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves.

the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows.

the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run.

facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had.

this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.

lawl
01-02-2012, 02:35 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.

that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all.

and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run.

08-10ints
09-14ints
2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined.
2011-16 ints.

every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves.

the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows.

the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run.

facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had.

this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.


So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't.

The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced.

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 02:42 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.

that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all.

and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run.

08-10ints
09-14ints
2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined.
2011-16 ints.

every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves.

the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows.

the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run.

facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had.

this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.


So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't.

The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced.

every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows.

what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date.

im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.

jakegibbs
01-02-2012, 02:45 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.

that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all.

and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run.

08-10ints
09-14ints
2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined.
2011-16 ints.

every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves.

the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows.

the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run.

facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had.

this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.


So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't.

The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced.

Within the next 2 years Eli will be the all time passing leader in NY Giant history too.

14 TD will tie Phil
6K yards of total passing yards will move him ahead.
I think it's a done deal as long as he stays healthy.

Drez
01-02-2012, 02:56 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</P>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</P>

RobCarpenter
01-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>

lawl
01-02-2012, 03:08 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355 and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 03:19 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355* and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


*</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>

i can see where ur coming from, but i dont think the argument is strong enough for me to even think that "he's this new qb who isnt playing like he had in the past", he's been around this level for a few years now, granted he has improved on some things, but its just part of his maturation process i guess. its really subjective i guess, i cant say ur wrong, u could say im wrong but thatd be ur opinion and not fact.

i see a qb who certainly has played his best ball this year, but not some qb who replaced him and jumped into his body and play differently. he really has been making the same types of throws, same type of demeanor, really i guess we could compromise and say that eli improved upon things from the prior years to play his best ball. but still i maintain he isnt this new guy who plays a new way, same qb, same throws, virtually same statisitical measurements, just a bunch more yards bc of a lack of run game and maybe more careful with the ball.

but even then, he isnt. that 44 yder to cruz last night in the 4th, did he throw it away there? cruz's second td vs philly? he still tries to fit those tight passes, this year its been more successful than past.

Drez
01-02-2012, 03:24 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355 and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>


i can see where ur coming from, but i dont think the argument is strong enough for me to even think that "he's this new qb who isnt playing like he had in the past", he's been around this level for a few years now, granted he has improved on some things, but its just part of his maturation process i guess. its really subjective i guess, i cant say ur wrong, u could say im wrong but thatd be ur opinion and not fact. i see a qb who certainly has played his best ball this year, but not some qb who replaced him and jumped into his body and play differently. he really has been making the same types of throws, same type of demeanor, really i guess we could compromise and say that eli improved upon things from the prior years to play his best ball. but still i maintain he isnt this new guy who plays a new way, same qb, same throws, virtually same statisitical measurements, just a bunch more yards bc of a lack of run game and maybe more careful with the ball. but even then, he isnt. that 44 yder to cruz last night in the 4th, did he throw it away there? cruz's second td vs philly? he still tries to fit those tight passes, this year its been more successful than past.</P>


I think I know how to settle this debate:</P>


Previously Eli had been playing excellent football.
This year he's played superb football.
(You can switch the adjectives around to fit which one you think is slightly better).</P>

lawl
01-02-2012, 03:30 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355 and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>


i can see where ur coming from, but i dont think the argument is strong enough for me to even think that "he's this new qb who isnt playing like he had in the past", he's been around this level for a few years now, granted he has improved on some things, but its just part of his maturation process i guess. its really subjective i guess, i cant say ur wrong, u could say im wrong but thatd be ur opinion and not fact. i see a qb who certainly has played his best ball this year, but not some qb who replaced him and jumped into his body and play differently. he really has been making the same types of throws, same type of demeanor, really i guess we could compromise and say that eli improved upon things from the prior years to play his best ball. but still i maintain he isnt this new guy who plays a new way, same qb, same throws, virtually same statisitical measurements, just a bunch more yards bc of a lack of run game and maybe more careful with the ball. but even then, he isnt. that 44 yder to cruz last night in the 4th, did he throw it away there? cruz's second td vs philly? he still tries to fit those tight passes, this year its been more successful than past.</P>


Yea I definitely know what you mean. I specifically remember two throws earlier in the year where Eli had his eyes closed, threw the ball, and it was completed both times lol. However, as the season went on he hasn't seemed have done that as often. Cruz was one on one last night with Alan Ball on that 44 yarder, I mean, most QBs would trust Cruz to make that play, but then again the 2nd td throw to Cruz in the eagle gameprobably ends up badly more times than not and therefore was a bad decision, not a bad throw, but a bad decision. </P>


To me, it seems he's putting the ball in more catchable areas and throwing guys open more often than he has, if that makes sense. And when Eli does decide to take a chance he has a guy like Cruz to go get it, but hell Stafford throws it up into triple coverage to Megatron it seems like on a weekly basis.</P>


Bottom line, the burden of producing points and moving the chains is on Eli much more than it has been in the past. We know for a fact that he is capable of coming through and meeting that challenge *now*, we cannot say for a fact that Eli was capable of doing this in the past because either he didnt have to do it or he wasnt able to.</P>


Even leaguewide perception of Eli has changed. How often in years past would you hear guys and coaches say "We're just going to make Eli beat us." Now you have guys saying the opposite.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 03:32 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</p>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</p>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</p>

i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play

Drez
01-02-2012, 03:47 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</P>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</P>




i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play
</P>


That's part of it, no doubt. </P>


But, I still believe that Eli is placing the ball better than he has in the past. We may only be talking a matter of inches on most passes, but on some throws that's the difference between a completionand a drop (or worse), or being able to run with the ball after catching it or having to adjust just enough to have the defender catch up to you.</P>


I think one of the reasons why the receivers have been able to make more plays on the tougher balls this year (and bigger plays on the more routine ones) is because Eli is putting the ball in a better spot. It's a subtle improvement, but one that can make a huge difference.</P>


Maybe you're right. Maybe I am. Kind of hard to quantify this kind of thing. No matter who is correct, I think we can both agree on being very pleased with the results.</P>

Penguin101
01-02-2012, 03:51 PM
I don't think there is any other QB I'd take over Eli. OK, I'm home blind here maybe, but I like every aspect of his play these days. His pois coming from behind is in my opinion the best in the league. No matter how dire the situation looks you don't count him out.

gumby742
01-02-2012, 04:09 PM
He is an elite QB THIS YEAR. One "elite" year doesn't make him elite. It's going to have to take another year to convince me and probably most other non giant fans.

Hey Gumbnuts, I believe there is a Superbowl ring that would disagree with you.

and since we're speaking in terms of fans - i would say the pro-bowl suggests otherwise in Gumby's OP

He got voted in over Cam, Stafford, and Romo who all had great years and pro-bowls are all about the the fans opinions

bottom line is that once the media takes ahold of something, the sheep will follow. Eli is legit - time to let this argument go




Actually you're right. Typical fans are pretty fickle and the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. . Just like last year people were saying Josh Freeman was elite as well. blah blah. I guess I just need more convincing, not just with Eli but with others as well. Kind of a "Show me you can do it again, and it'll show me it isn't a fluke." This applies to JPP, Cruz, ... everyone.

But do NOT take my statement in a negative light. Eli carried us this year and is playing at another level compared to years past.

Do you know what the difference is? Eli throws the ball away AND he is more accurate (hitting the WRs in stride and allowing for yards after the catch) AND making those easy big plays passes. I see a huge difference this year.

gumby742
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</p>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</p>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</p>

i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them.* The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play


Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride.

Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

rebelfan1966
01-02-2012, 04:15 PM
In my mind... unless the NFL comes out and defines what constitutes an "ELITE QB" in writing.... then the arguement or debate over who is, and who is not, is really not relavent. </P>


I am just happy to say ......Eli plays very good, and I am happy he is on our team [:)]</P>

gumby742
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355* and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


*</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>


i can see where ur coming from, but i dont think the argument is strong enough for me to even think that "he's this new qb who isnt playing like he had in the past", he's been around this level for a few years now, granted he has improved on some things, but its just part of his maturation process i guess. its really subjective i guess, i cant say ur wrong, u could say im wrong but thatd be ur opinion and not fact. i see a qb who certainly has played his best ball this year, but not some qb who replaced him and jumped into his body and play differently. he really has been making the same types of throws, same type of demeanor, really i guess we could compromise and say that eli improved upon things from the prior years to play his best ball. but still i maintain he isnt this new guy who plays a new way, same qb, same throws, virtually same statisitical measurements, just a bunch more yards bc of a lack of run game and maybe more careful with the ball. but even then, he isnt. that 44 yder to cruz last night in the 4th, did he throw it away there? cruz's second td vs philly? he still tries to fit those tight passes, this year its been more successful than past.</P>


Yea I definitely know what you mean. I specifically remember two throws earlier in the year where Eli had his eyes closed, threw the ball, and it was completed both times lol. However, as the season went on he hasn't seemed have done that as often. Cruz was one on one last night with Alan Ball on that 44 yarder, I mean, most QBs would trust Cruz to make that play, but then again the 2nd td throw to Cruz in the eagle game*probably ends up badly more times than not and therefore was a bad decision, not a bad throw, but a bad decision. </P>


To me, it seems he's putting the ball in more catchable areas and throwing guys open more often than he has, if that makes sense. And when Eli does decide to take a chance he has a guy like Cruz to go get it, but hell Stafford throws it up into triple coverage to Megatron it seems like on a weekly basis.</P>


Bottom line, the burden of producing points and moving the chains is on Eli much more than it has been in the past. We know for a fact that he is capable of coming through and meeting that challenge *now*, we cannot say for a fact that Eli was capable of doing this in the past because either he didnt have to do it or he wasnt able to.</P>


Even leaguewide perception of Eli has changed. How often in years past would you hear guys and coaches say "We're just going to make Eli beat us." Now you have guys saying the opposite.</P>

My brother, who's an even bigger skeptic of Eli then I was (I'm definitely starting to believe ..just need another year of it), is starting to sing a different tune also. Eli the freaking man this year. If he continues, we'll be a force.

If our defense continues to show up, I don't think teams would want to face us in the post season.

G-Man67
01-02-2012, 04:17 PM
sometimes i think some "fans" would rather have their QB throw for 400 yards and lose vs. 175 yards and win



and to answer the question, Eli showed this year the kinda QB he could be either on a team that wasn't interested in running or in our case couldn't get it done on the ground, so while that is a bad thing that we couldn't run it should put to bed any debate about what he is capable of ... now let's try to get back to a balanced attack, since we have our answer

PHARAOHLYFE7
01-02-2012, 04:23 PM
That play where Eli spun away in the pocket. I had an instant flash back of the super bowl. Too many people under credit what Eli does and he continues to show he belongs in the same category of Elite quarterbacks. He's not the flashiest ..but he gets the job done.

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 04:35 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


He throws the ball away much more often now. One example off the top of my head was just in this game he was rolling out in the redzone looking to throw to AB, saw that he was covered, and just lofted the ball over his head and out of trouble.</P>


The thing is, his stats are not virtually identical. Especially when comparing 08. His Yardage increased by 1700. His YPA increased by 24% and he has 8 more TDs(thats like 4 games worth of TDs). Sure, he had much less attempts because as you pointed out the run game was on point that year, but in 08 our ypg was 355* and in 2011 we had 385.1 ypg. So the production went up signficantly, because of Eli's play regardless of the run game.</P>


*</P>


You've defined a rather arbitrary "level" of play and say that his best season still fits within that same level.</P>


Eli's second best statistical season? 09 he went for 4000 yards and 27 TDs. 8 guys did that this year. Tony Romo, Phil Rivers and Matt Ryan are 3 of the 8. Are those guys playing at the same level as Eli was this year? I don't think so.</P>


And again that 4th quarter magic is back and it hasn't been around for a couple years now. We could have definitely used it in that 08 home playoff game against the Eagles.</P>


i can see where ur coming from, but i dont think the argument is strong enough for me to even think that "he's this new qb who isnt playing like he had in the past", he's been around this level for a few years now, granted he has improved on some things, but its just part of his maturation process i guess. its really subjective i guess, i cant say ur wrong, u could say im wrong but thatd be ur opinion and not fact. i see a qb who certainly has played his best ball this year, but not some qb who replaced him and jumped into his body and play differently. he really has been making the same types of throws, same type of demeanor, really i guess we could compromise and say that eli improved upon things from the prior years to play his best ball. but still i maintain he isnt this new guy who plays a new way, same qb, same throws, virtually same statisitical measurements, just a bunch more yards bc of a lack of run game and maybe more careful with the ball. but even then, he isnt. that 44 yder to cruz last night in the 4th, did he throw it away there? cruz's second td vs philly? he still tries to fit those tight passes, this year its been more successful than past.</P>


Yea I definitely know what you mean. I specifically remember two throws earlier in the year where Eli had his eyes closed, threw the ball, and it was completed both times lol. However, as the season went on he hasn't seemed have done that as often. Cruz was one on one last night with Alan Ball on that 44 yarder, I mean, most QBs would trust Cruz to make that play, but then again the 2nd td throw to Cruz in the eagle game*probably ends up badly more times than not and therefore was a bad decision, not a bad throw, but a bad decision. </P>


To me, it seems he's putting the ball in more catchable areas and throwing guys open more often than he has, if that makes sense. And when Eli does decide to take a chance he has a guy like Cruz to go get it, but hell Stafford throws it up into triple coverage to Megatron it seems like on a weekly basis.</P>


Bottom line, the burden of producing points and moving the chains is on Eli much more than it has been in the past. We know for a fact that he is capable of coming through and meeting that challenge *now*, we cannot say for a fact that Eli was capable of doing this in the past because either he didnt have to do it or he wasnt able to.</P>


Even leaguewide perception of Eli has changed. How often in years past would you hear guys and coaches say "We're just going to make Eli beat us." Now you have guys saying the opposite.</P>

yeah i see what ur saying and agree for the most part. but still that play to cruz in the 4th, most qb's dont do a spin move and have enough talent and smarts to recognize he had 1 v 1 coverage before he spun, and to be able to plant off a spin move and hurl a picture perfect pass...i mean the spin move was great in itself bc he avoided a sack, but it wasnt like he just threw it away after that.

i agree with u and still maintain that eli is def. playing his best ball, but he's still on the plane or level if u will he has been in the past. better decisions isnt like "hes this new amazing completely different qb", its he's the same guy but being more meticulous and methodical in his play. thanks for the quality replies and not letting a discussion of eli turn into the "oh ur not a true blue fan" bs. appreciate it as always as ur one of the best posters here imo.

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 04:36 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</p>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</p>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</p>

i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play


Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride.

Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

I can think of 3 balls off the top of my head that were NOT particular great placed balls that our WRs made plays on...

Either way, those balls should of been caught

MattMeyerBud
01-02-2012, 04:39 PM
He is an elite QB THIS YEAR. One "elite" year doesn't make him elite. It's going to have to take another year to convince me and probably most other non giant fans.

Hey Gumbnuts, I believe there is a Superbowl ring that would disagree with you.

and since we're speaking in terms of fans - i would say the pro-bowl suggests otherwise in Gumby's OP

He got voted in over Cam, Stafford, and Romo who all had great years and pro-bowls are all about the the fans opinions

bottom line is that once the media takes ahold of something, the sheep will follow. Eli is legit - time to let this argument go




Actually you're right. Typical fans are pretty fickle and the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. . Just like last year people were saying Josh Freeman was elite as well. blah blah. I guess I just need more convincing, not just with Eli but with others as well. Kind of a "Show me you can do it again, and it'll show me it isn't a fluke." This applies to JPP, Cruz, ... everyone.

But do NOT take my statement in a negative light. Eli carried us this year and is playing at another level compared to years past.

Do you know what the difference is? Eli throws the ball away AND he is more accurate (hitting the WRs in stride and allowing for yards after the catch) AND making those easy big plays passes. I see a huge difference this year.

i love how you've come around [{]

Bohemian
01-02-2012, 04:44 PM
Manning has been amazing throughout his whole career. Arriving from day one with all kinds of pressure due to his family name, and playing in the shark infested new york media. He has improved every year, and even a super bowl victory would not get people to doubt his talent, so he just took the team on his back during a year when injuries and back-up starters would have been reason enough to have a mediocre year. Manning is truly elite as a field general, and as the face of the league's most priced franchise.

Go Blue!

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 06:10 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>

burier
01-02-2012, 07:05 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts.** </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


*</P>

After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback,

and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage.

If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.

yatitle
01-02-2012, 07:05 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts. </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


</p>

If 2010 was a "horrible" season with 31 TDs and 4000 yards how in the world would you describe the seasons of Tebow and Sanchez?

Roosevelt
01-02-2012, 08:00 PM
The bottom line is that we all want Eli to have great stats and the individual recognition that goes with it, but the most important thing is that he plays well and we win.

You guys who think this is the same Eli Manning from years ago need to remember all the times we heard Eli, Coughlin, or Reese state that he needed to play better.

You certainly are not going to hear that kind of talk now.

Prior to this season, talk of Eli being a top 5 QB was met with laughter and ridicule. He was consistently named as one of the most overrated players by his peers, who obviously didn't feel he was even worthy to make the NFL's top 100 list.

There wont be any disrespect after the year he's had. Now, the top 5 talk is legitimate. He's most worthy of the Pro Bowl, worthy of league MVP consideration, and obviously will not be left out of next year's top 100 list.

Sorry, but you folks that think he earned this in years past are only fooling yourselves.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 08:09 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>

yatitle
01-02-2012, 08:12 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts. </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


</p>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</p>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</p>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</p>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</p>

So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?

GMAN2
01-02-2012, 08:18 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts.** </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


*</p>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</p>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</p>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</p>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</p>

So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?

GMAN2
01-02-2012, 08:22 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts.** </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


*</p>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</p>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</p>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</p>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</p>

So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?


I agree w/your point here. I do not agree Eli was horrible last year. To say that, for impies, a total failure. INTs were way too high, no question. But his TDs, completion %, and yards were all pretty good, especially considering the injuries at WR and OL.

burier
01-02-2012, 08:32 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts.** </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


*</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>

We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts.

As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible"

(Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.)


Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past.

You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 09:35 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>




So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?
</P>


I wouldn't say terrible but I would definately say it was a down year. But his team did win 11 games and make the playoffs. Plus he had no running game at all.</P>


If you ask Brees himself, he would probably say it was a sub par year.</P>

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 09:41 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</P>


You guys dwell on stats. Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli. It was his play on the field. he was lousy in the pocket. He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket. He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security. Last year his two worst picks were in games we won. The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game. </P>


Contrast that with last night. On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</P>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season. throwing the ball away more when nothing is there. Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away. And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</P>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck. I see it because I pay attention.</P>

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 09:50 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts.** </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


*</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</P>


You guys dwell on stats.* Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli.* It was his play on the field.* he was lousy in the pocket.* He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket.* He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security.* Last year his two worst picks were in games we won.* The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game.* </P>


Contrast that with last night.* On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</P>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season.* throwing the ball away more when nothing is there.* Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away.* And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</P>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck.* I see it because I pay attention.</P>

your right, on that 3rd and 7 where eli did the spin move, planted his feet, and threw it out of bounds...oh wait, he completed a 44 yd strike to cruz that got us into fg range in the first place.

he certainly didnt play his best ball at all last year, but his play this year and last is very similar. i accept that he has beena bit more careful and aware of the game situations, but he is still throwing off his back foot, throwing the left handed pass when he feels he can complete it, and fitting balls through extremely small windows.

no matter how strongly u feel about it, eli isnt this brand new completely different qb...he's the same guy he was from the 07 playoff run til now. just improves a bit on a weak point each year. same level of play, just enhanced.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 10:02 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</P>


You guys dwell on stats. Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli. It was his play on the field. he was lousy in the pocket. He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket. He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security. Last year his two worst picks were in games we won. The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game. </P>


Contrast that with last night. On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</P>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season. throwing the ball away more when nothing is there. Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away. And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</P>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck. I see it because I pay attention.</P>


your right, on that 3rd and 7 where eli did the spin move, planted his feet, and threw it out of bounds...oh wait, he completed a 44 yd strike to cruz that got us into fg range in the first place. he certainly didnt play his best ball at all last year, but his play this year and last is very similar. i accept that he has beena bit more careful and aware of the game situations, but he is still throwing off his back foot, throwing the left handed pass when he feels he can complete it, and fitting balls through extremely small windows. no matter how strongly u feel about it, eli isnt this brand new completely different qb...he's the same guy he was from the 07 playoff run til now. just improves a bit on a weak point each year. same level of play, just enhanced.</P>


He had Victor Cruz with single coverage. It was the right decision. That is a matchup we have to take advantage of. especially given Cruz's ability to go up and get the football.</P>


Plus an interception that far downfield would be akin to a good punt. It was a good decision and a very good pass.</P>


And if you can't see the difference with Eli in the pocket this season over any other of his career you are absolutley blind. This is the first season I don't wince when Eli is under pressure of a pass rush. His decision making has been spot on this year. Deal with it. He's improved tremendously. </P>


And another point. How many times in the past three years has Eli brought us back? This year he's done it a crapload of times. Last year, 09 and 08, he had many chances and except for Jax last year and maybe another game I can't remember, he was unable to.</P>


I am surprised that you don't see the difference.</P>

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 10:11 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts.** </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


*</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</P>


You guys dwell on stats.* Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli.* It was his play on the field.* he was lousy in the pocket.* He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket.* He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security.* Last year his two worst picks were in games we won.* The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game.* </P>


Contrast that with last night.* On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</P>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season.* throwing the ball away more when nothing is there.* Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away.* And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</P>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck.* I see it because I pay attention.</P>


your right, on that 3rd and 7 where eli did the spin move, planted his feet, and threw it out of bounds...oh wait, he completed a 44 yd strike to cruz that got us into fg range in the first place. he certainly didnt play his best ball at all last year, but his play this year and last is very similar. i accept that he has beena bit more careful and aware of the game situations, but he is still throwing off his back foot, throwing the left handed pass when he feels he can complete it, and fitting balls through extremely small windows. no matter how strongly u feel about it, eli isnt this brand new completely different qb...he's the same guy he was from the 07 playoff run til now. just improves a bit on a weak point each year. same level of play, just enhanced.</P>


He had Victor Cruz with single coverage.* It was the right decision.** That is a matchup we have to take advantage of.* especially given Cruz's ability to go up and get the football.</P>


Plus an interception that far downfield would be akin to a good punt.* It was a good decision and a very good pass.</P>


And if you can't see the difference with Eli in the pocket this season over any other of his career you are absolutley blind.* This is the first season I don't wince when Eli is under pressure of a pass rush.* His decision making has been spot on this year.* Deal with it.* He's improved tremendously.* </P>


And another point.* How many times in the past three years has Eli brought us back?* This year he's done it a crapload of times.* Last year, 09 and 08, he had many chances and except for Jax last year and maybe another game I can't remember, he was unable to.</P>


I am surprised that you don't see the difference.</P>
i do see a difference. the thing is u make that difference out to be that eli is this new, completely different qb. to me, that isnt the case at all.

i see a qb whose playing his best ball of his career yes, but nonetheless still around the same level from the 07 playoff run til now. i respect ur opinions on almost everything except eli manning. i think that the 25 ints weigh more in ur view of him than his actual play.

08 and 09 he threw less ints combined than 2010. since the o7 playoff run, hes virtually right at the same number of td's, comp %, ypa. this year, his yardage is way up. but when u factor in that from 2005 to 2010 we had one of the best running attacks in the league, he was never asked to or needed to throw for as many yards as has been the case this year. our run game is dead last in ypg, and ypa. that equates into having to throw for more yardage to pick up the slack.

even still, prior to this season he had thrown for 4000 yards in consecutive seasons and the year prior to his first 4000 yard year he was at like 3990 yards.

i concede he's playing his best ball. i will not concede that he's playing at some new level that he's this new, completely different guy. it isnt the case at all.

edit-he's still threading the needle into extremely tight windows, he's still throwing off his back foot, he's still trying whatever way he can do advance the ball even if it takes a left handed throw. he's still trying to extend and make big plays.
just bc he's throwing the ball away a couple more times a game, as that seems to be ur main difference, that doesnt mean he's this new qb that we havent seen. it just means he's improved on an aspect that was admittedly poor last season. even still, had 8 passes gotten tipped up for ints this year, would that suddenly erase how he;s played this season?/

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 10:21 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</P>


You guys dwell on stats. Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli. It was his play on the field. he was lousy in the pocket. He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket. He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security. Last year his two worst picks were in games we won. The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game. </P>


Contrast that with last night. On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</P>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season. throwing the ball away more when nothing is there. Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away. And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</P>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck. I see it because I pay attention.</P>


your right, on that 3rd and 7 where eli did the spin move, planted his feet, and threw it out of bounds...oh wait, he completed a 44 yd strike to cruz that got us into fg range in the first place. he certainly didnt play his best ball at all last year, but his play this year and last is very similar. i accept that he has beena bit more careful and aware of the game situations, but he is still throwing off his back foot, throwing the left handed pass when he feels he can complete it, and fitting balls through extremely small windows. no matter how strongly u feel about it, eli isnt this brand new completely different qb...he's the same guy he was from the 07 playoff run til now. just improves a bit on a weak point each year. same level of play, just enhanced.</P>


He had Victor Cruz with single coverage. It was the right decision. That is a matchup we have to take advantage of. especially given Cruz's ability to go up and get the football.</P>


Plus an interception that far downfield would be akin to a good punt. It was a good decision and a very good pass.</P>


And if you can't see the difference with Eli in the pocket this season over any other of his career you are absolutley blind. This is the first season I don't wince when Eli is under pressure of a pass rush. His decision making has been spot on this year. Deal with it. He's improved tremendously. </P>


And another point. How many times in the past three years has Eli brought us back? This year he's done it a crapload of times. Last year, 09 and 08, he had many chances and except for Jax last year and maybe another game I can't remember, he was unable to.</P>


I am surprised that you don't see the difference.</P>


i do see a difference. the thing is u make that difference out to be that eli is this new, completely different qb. to me, that isnt the case at all. i see a qb whose playing his best ball of his career yes, but nonetheless still around the same level from the 07 playoff run til now. i respect ur opinions on almost everything except eli manning. i think that the 25 ints weigh more in ur view of him than his actual play. 08 and 09 he threw less ints combined than 2010. since the o7 playoff run, hes virtually right at the same number of td's, comp %, ypa. this year, his yardage is way up. but when u factor in that from 2005 to 2010 we had one of the best running attacks in the league, he was never asked to or needed to throw for as many yards as has been the case this year. our run game is dead last in ypg, and ypa. that equates into having to throw for more yardage to pick up the slack. even still, prior to this season he had thrown for 4000 yards in consecutive seasons and the year prior to his first 4000 yard year he was at like 3990 yards. i concede he's playing his best ball. i will not concede that he's playing at some new level that he's this new, completely different guy. it isnt the case at all.</P>


Again with the stats. Stats are tough because this year no one played defense. The top seeds in each conference are 31st and 32nd in defense. there were 10 QB's who threw for 4000 yards.</P>


Its not Eli's stats that impress me. The yardage total is a manifestation of very poor defenses against us and great plays by Cruz especially.</P>


I'm talking about PLAY ON THE FIELD. I keep saying it and then everybody regurgitates stats back at me.</P>


Its his <U>play in the pocket</U>. Its his <U>calmness in the pocket</U>. Its his <U>movement in the pocket</U>. Its his <U>decision making in the pocket</U>.</P>


Do you gleem a theme here?</P>


These were weeknesses in his game until this season. His 4 game SB run in my view came from a game so badly played by him at Buffalo, that Gilbride was running on passing downs and trying to keep the ball out of Eli's hands.</P>


Eli saw this (in my view) and learned from it. he protected the ball during the SB run. His stats were right in line with his career averages. (about 220 yards, 1.5 TD's per game) It was ball protection that was the key.</P>


Unfortunately he slowely regressed again over the next three years, ending in that horrible season in 2010.</P>


Again Eli LEARNED from his errors on the field and clearly was committed to improving. Don't forget TC's comments in Indy in February that Eli needed to throw the ball away more and take more sacks.</P>


I give the kid credit for learning. You, for some reason have to apply some "outside influences" to his play. Maybe you should give him some credit too.</P>

giantsfan420
01-02-2012, 10:44 PM
you really should stop pigeon holing people and acting superior. i've tried to converse with u respectfully and present my point of view.

ill re-enter this conversation if u decide to talk to me like im not some idiot, just a person who has a diff. point of view.

u can act like eli is this new qb we havent seen before, it isnt the case. he's doing the same things he's been doing the past 3 years with more attention on protecting the ball. u do realize that comes off as ur main point about why eli is this completely different qb, that he throws the ball away an extra time or two a game.

his pocket presence...odd as he, before this year, always avoided sacks and extended plays. and further, if eli was as u described him, on that pass to cruz in the 4th that got us into fg range, eli would have thrown it away. he simply tries to make plays every chance he can. he has gotten that in check this year yes. but i maintain that i at least saw eli being able to reach this point since the 07 playoff run. whether or not he actually put that onto the field, maybe i was a lil blinded bc of the great times ive had watching the games with my family and eli making heroic plays. but i still dont see eli as this new qb, i see eli as the guys from the previous years who has gotten better in a few key aspects.

i admit i may have been rude to u in the past, and i apologize for that. i can be a jerk and will try to put more of a focus on respecting others even if i strongly disagree with them on something. but, just bc u view something differently than me doesnt make me wrong or make u wrong. i guess its subjective.

i disagree with the title tho, eli is an elite qb, but he, nicks, cruz, jpp, phillips, webster, coughlin, KG, and a slew of others has gotten us here.

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 10:55 PM
you really should stop pigeon holing people and acting superior. i've tried to converse with u respectfully and present my point of view. ill re-enter this conversation if u decide to talk to me like im not some idiot, just a person who has a diff. point of view. u can act like eli is this new qb we havent seen before, it isnt the case. he's doing the same things he's been doing the past 3 years with more attention on protecting the ball. u do realize that comes off as ur main point about why eli is this completely different qb, that he throws the ball away an extra time or two a game. his pocket presence...odd as he, before this year, always avoided sacks and extended plays. and further, if eli was as u described him, on that pass to cruz in the 4th that got us into fg range, eli would have thrown it away. he simply tries to make plays every chance he can. he has gotten that in check this year yes. but i maintain that i at least saw eli being able to reach this point since the 07 playoff run. whether or not he actually put that onto the field, maybe i was a lil blinded bc of the great times ive had watching the games with my family and eli making heroic plays. but i still dont see eli as this new qb, i see eli as the guys from the previous years who has gotten better in a few key aspects. i admit i may have been rude to u in the past, and i apologize for that. i can be a jerk and will try to put more of a focus on respecting others even if i strongly disagree with them on something. but, just bc u view something differently than me doesnt make me wrong or make u wrong. i guess its subjective. i disagree with the title tho, eli is an elite qb, but he, nicks, cruz, jpp, phillips, webster, coughlin, KG, and a slew of others has gotten us here.</P>


There is a big difference between making tongue in cheeks jokes and treating someone with disrespect. I think you may be guilty of being too thin skinned here. Its not my intent to treat you with disrespect. And you would have no way of knowing how I'm "acting". I'm typing on my keybaord.</P>


I made specific points in the past several posts about Eli's play , and used specific examples to back up my position. You assume that the number "25" (as in last years picks) is my problem with Eli's play last year. Its a number. Thats all. (albeit a high number). I get Drew Brees thrown in my face, I get all kinds of other "stats" thrown at me. None of that is pertinent to my point. Its about his performance in the pocket. I'm not reviewing all my points again. </P>


You think he played fine last year and I guess he was just a victim of the ineptitude of others, I disagree. he played poorly in general. And it cost us some games. Two in particular. This year with a worse O line, a worse running game, he is getting it done. I say good for Eli. Other than that we are going to have to agree to disagree.</P>


</P>

ELIistheFRANCHISE
01-02-2012, 11:01 PM
you really should stop pigeon holing people and acting superior. i've tried to converse with u respectfully and present my point of view. ill re-enter this conversation if u decide to talk to me like im not some idiot, just a person who has a diff. point of view. u can act like eli is this new qb we havent seen before, it isnt the case. he's doing the same things he's been doing the past 3 years with more attention on protecting the ball. u do realize that comes off as ur main point about why eli is this completely different qb, that he throws the ball away an extra time or two a game. his pocket presence...odd as he, before this year, always avoided sacks and extended plays. and further, if eli was as u described him, on that pass to cruz in the 4th that got us into fg range, eli would have thrown it away. he simply tries to make plays every chance he can. he has gotten that in check this year yes. but i maintain that i at least saw eli being able to reach this point since the 07 playoff run. whether or not he actually put that onto the field, maybe i was a lil blinded bc of the great times ive had watching the games with my family and eli making heroic plays. but i still dont see eli as this new qb, i see eli as the guys from the previous years who has gotten better in a few key aspects. i admit i may have been rude to u in the past, and i apologize for that. i can be a jerk and will try to put more of a focus on respecting others even if i strongly disagree with them on something. but, just bc u view something differently than me doesnt make me wrong or make u wrong. i guess its subjective. i disagree with the title tho, eli is an elite qb, but he, nicks, cruz, jpp, phillips, webster, coughlin, KG, and a slew of others has gotten us here.</P>


There is a big difference between making tongue in cheeks jokes and treating someone with disrespect.* I think you may be guilty of being too thin skinned here.* Its not my intent to treat you with disrespect.* And you would have no way of knowing how I'm "acting".* I'm typing on my keybaord.</P>


I made specific points in the past several posts about Eli's play , and used specific examples to back up my position.* You assume that the number "25" (as in last years picks) is my problem with Eli's play last year.* Its a number.* Thats all.* (albeit a high number).* I get Drew Brees thrown in my face, I get all kinds of other "stats" thrown at me.* None of that is pertinent to my point.* Its about his performance in the pocket.* I'm not reviewing all my points again.* </P>


You think he played fine last year and I guess he was just a victim of the ineptitude of others,* I disagree.* he played poorly in general.* And it cost us some games.* Two in particular.* This year with a worse O line, a worse running game, he is getting it done.* I say good for Eli.* Other than that we are going to have to agree to disagree.</P>


*</P>
I have never seen Eli have this type of presence in the pocket before. Stats or no stats, the subtle moves he is making and the moving up in the pocket, the calmness, making LASER throws off balance...Eli has never played like this before...everyone loves to fall on stats, but sometimes they dont tell the whole story.

yatitle
01-02-2012, 11:26 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts.** </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now.* Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend.* * I think*several of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"*group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but were*unsuccessful with the hardline haters.** </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli.** It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was not*his best for other common QB metrics such as:* Competion percentage;* TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating.** Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durable*QB for years now and he's just in his prime.*</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season.* Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


*</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %.* Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010.* And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket.* Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>




So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?
</P>


I wouldn't say terrible but I would definately say it was a down year.* But his team did win 11 games and make the playoffs.* Plus he had no running game at all.</P>


If you ask Brees himself, he would probably say it was a sub par year.</P>

So just to confirm, Brees with 22 INTs and his team 11-5 (and a playoff loss to 7-9 Seattle who might have been the worst playoff team in NFL history) is a down or subpar year but Eli with 25 INT's and his team 10-6 was horrible. You never disappoint with your absurdities.

FIFTY6G-MAN
01-02-2012, 11:37 PM
I skipped ahead just to post that without ELI we would be nothing and forget all the TALIKING heads, they are all about the others that we dont care about. I love flying under the radar...lets keep it going just enough to win out and go to indy for another great year while they continue to bash "OUR" team love it!

Morehead State
01-02-2012, 11:56 PM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>




So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?
</P>


I wouldn't say terrible but I would definately say it was a down year. But his team did win 11 games and make the playoffs. Plus he had no running game at all.</P>


If you ask Brees himself, he would probably say it was a sub par year.</P>


So just to confirm, Brees with 22 INTs and his team 11-5 (and a playoff loss to 7-9 Seattle who might have been the worst playoff team in NFL history) is a down or subpar year but Eli with 25 INT's and his team 10-6 was horrible. You never disappoint with your absurdities.</P>


Thanks.</P>


</P>


...and you do love your stats.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 12:24 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again".

u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play?

I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year.

also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me.

but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do?

it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past.

and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses."

in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.

Tuffy44
01-03-2012, 01:15 AM
I do not agree that Eli is the only good player the giants have. I think we have a case of intense manning love around here.

dpvetter2002
01-03-2012, 06:26 AM
Haha! I agree! I got a headache just reading that post!

nygfanmaybe
01-03-2012, 06:51 AM
this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.

Thank you for stating the obvious, but I think that you have learned as have I that the obvious is not so obvious on these boards for some reason...which makes me wonder if I am coming in here occasionally to mingle with the 8th graders.

If you don't do well when you run, then over a period of time you may abandon the run to a certain degree. If you abandon the run, then you must pass more. IT IS NOT ROCKET SURGERY!!!

I have not looked but I would be willing to bet that Eli attempted more passes this year than any other year. I could be wrong because, like I said, I haven't looked.

It irritates me because, other than the normal learning curve that any player will have when making the transition from college to the NFL, Eli has been the same QB that he was when he entered the bowl game in the 4th qtr. against WVU his freshmen year at Ole Miss...down by a ton...and threw for about 4 TD's to make the game interesting.

Edit--Oh, yeah...one more thing. Eli did throw an unusual amount of picks last year, but I think it was a combination of bad luck and his place on the learning curve. I can remember a time in my career when I gave myself more credit than I should have...and it wasn't in the beginning of my career, it was after I had learned a few things and thought I knew it all. From that stage I reeled it in a bit, and I think we have seen a little of that from Eli this year.

gumby742
01-03-2012, 08:33 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</P>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</P>




i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play
Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride. Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

I can think of 3 balls off the top of my head that were NOT particular great placed balls that our WRs made plays on...

Either way, those balls should of been caught
</P>


It's all a % game my friend. Poor throws cause a higher % of bad things to happen. When you make accurate throws (in stride etc) the % of good things goes up. People make Warner out to be a really great QB, but in IMO he was nothing but an accurate passer then made throws to great WRs in stride and let them run after the catch - thus inflating his numbers.</P>


Are there going to be cases where a WR makes a play on a bad throw? You bet. But the %'s are against them. Romo throws behind Jones, Jones drops it. Romo throws behind Witten, Witten drops it and tips it up in the air. All "should" have been caught, but with a better throw a pop warner WR could have caught them. I realize you down really believe in QB "accuracy" due to the "hitting the hands theory" but at some point, people have to realize that making a throw between the numbers vs just hitting the hands is HUGE. The good QBs do it better then most.</P>


I haven't checked Eli's # of attemptsbut he passed for 5000 yards this year with i'm guessing similar # of attempts. Hitting people in stride and placing the ball accurately in general, = more yards per attempt. The media and the rest of the world is starting to take notice. Eli IS playing differently.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 08:39 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>

Kruunch
01-03-2012, 08:41 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare.

Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 08:50 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare. Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!</P>


Right. The QB for the team I've been devoted to for 45 years is playing the best he has ever played.</P>


Thats a tough one to take.</P>


And all you anti Morehead whack jobs please take note. My criticism for Eli came only last year. Almost all my posts before the 2010 season regarding Eli have been very positive.</P>


I've had debates for days against some of the worst anti-Eli dopes out here. Including and especially Izbo.</P>


My problems with Eli relate to his play in 2010. Not before and not since. It is my view that for some reason, he regressed last year. But it seems to me that he has learned from his mistakes and came out in 2011 determined not to allow history to repeat itself.</P>


And it was our head coach who took the exact position publicly that I took. That Eli needed to throw the ball away more and take more sacks instead of forcing the ball into coverage. Clearly, Eli has taken the Tom Coughlin/Morehead State approach. And rejected the view of the Cultists that he was just fine the way he was.</P>

RobCarpenter
01-03-2012, 08:56 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


MS, I love how you back up your highly subjective statements ("terrible") with no data. Eli's 2010 season was very muchinline with the rest of his career with one exception...the higher number of picks. His 2010 season wasso "terrible" that he threw for over 4000 yards of offense and had31 TD's. You really need to try and get a clue. </P>


Btw, your namesake, Mr. Simms, in the 1986 SuperBowl year threw 21 INT's while throwing the ball much less than Eli does. He also had more INT's than TD's, something Eli does not do even in 2010 when Eli had a 31/25 ratio....yet you worship Simms, yet love to bash Eli. </P>


I did admire how you tended to keep a lower profile during this season as yourincessant off-season Eli rantsmade you look rather silly. I tried telling you and some of the other haters back then how sillyyour weak arguments were....but you just wouldn't listen.</P>


Did someone named Eli steal your lunch money when you were a kid? I'm just trying to understand the root of your Eli issues. Just eat the crow.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:00 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


MS, I love how you back up your highly subjective statements ("terrible") with no data. Eli's 2010 season was very muchinline with the rest of his career with one exception...the higher number of picks. His 2010 season wasso "terrible" that he threw for over 4000 yards of offense and had31 TD's. You really need to try and get a clue. </P>


Btw, your namesake, Mr. Simms, in the 1986 SuperBowl year threw 21 INT's while throwing the ball much less than Eli does. He also had more INT's than TD's, something Eli does not do even in 2010 when Eli had a 31/25 ratio....yet you worship Simms, yet love to bash Eli. </P>


I did admire how you tended to keep a lower profile during this season as yourincessant off-season Eli rantsmade you look rather silly. I tried telling you and some of the other haters back then how sillyyour weak arguments were....but you just wouldn't listen.</P>


Did someone named Eli steal your lunch money when you were a kid? I'm just trying to understand the root of your Eli issues. Just eat the crow.</P>


</P>


Whack job #1 heard from.</P>


Low profile....Morehead? You really are a whack job!</P>


I have 3000 posts since the season started.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:06 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts. </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


</p>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</p>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</p>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</p>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</p>




So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?
</p>


I wouldn't say terrible but I would definately say it was a down year. But his team did win 11 games and make the playoffs. Plus he had no running game at all.</p>


If you ask Brees himself, he would probably say it was a sub par year.</p>

i hate those 10 win QBs who throw for 4k and 30

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:08 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts. </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


</p>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</p>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</p>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</p>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</p>


We can ignore your analysis of Eli's play last year because its fiction and deal with the facts. As you stated Brees threw 600 more yards, TWO more tds and three THREE fewer picks. Explain to the class how those numbers are great but Eli's numbers are "Horrible" (Edit: What you've just said is that if three of the 8 tipped balls that were intercepted were caught instead *Plus 1 was called an INT when it clear was not against Green bay. Another was thrown with just seconds on the clock which wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game had it been comleted. I can take two off the books without even addressing the tipped balls*...Eli Threw 600 more yards *he did leave the Seattle game early* Threw just two more tds and the Bears beat that Packers week 17 that Eli would have had an elite year. Thats a fine line between elite and horrible.) Extra credit if you can justify talking out of both sides of your mouth by giving Brees credit for making the playoffs while at the same time refusing to give Eli credit for the team accomplishments of past. You've said numerous times that Eli has a great team around him and thats why we make the playoffs etc etc.</p>


You guys dwell on stats. Its not the stats that made it a poor year for Eli. It was his play on the field. he was lousy in the pocket. He didn't make the kinds of subtle moves to create time in the pocket. He also threw horrible picks when the game situations required better focus on ball security. Last year his two worst picks were in games we won. The pick at Houston when we had a huge lead and the game at Dallas late when he let them back in the game. </p>


Contrast that with last night. On a third and long late with a lead, instead of chucking it into coverage when we needed a FG to take a two score lead, he tucked it down and ran for 10 yards to create an easy FG chance.</p>


This is a huge difference in Eli's game this season. throwing the ball away more when nothing is there. Taking sacks when he's unable to throw it away. And understanding game situations and making appropriate decisions.</p>


You guys don't see it because you are star struck. I see it because I pay attention.</p>

false

he still does those things - the difference has been players coming down with the balls

i thought its okay to chuck it into coverage sometimes?

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:09 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


</P>


After the 2010 season Eli himself said he was an Elite quarterback, and statistically he put up very good numbers that year. His ints were high but so were his yards, tds and completion percentage. If Eli had a horrible season in 2010 then so did Drew Brees. Check the stats.</P>


Brees had 600 more tards. 2 more Td's, 3 fewer picks and significantly better completion %. Plus he had more wins and made the playoffs, where Eli didn't.</P>


In every way, Brees' season was better than Eli's in 2010. And Brees had his worst year since going to NO.</P>


Eli's season in 2010 was horrible. He paniced in the pocket. Threw blindly into coverage and tried to make plays without considering game situations. All the things he didn't do this season.</P>




So bottom line, was Brees' 2010 season horrible?
</P>


I wouldn't say terrible but I would definately say it was a down year. But his team did win 11 games and make the playoffs. Plus he had no running game at all.</P>


If you ask Brees himself, he would probably say it was a sub par year.</P>




i hate those 10 win QBs who throw for 4k and 30
</P>


Thanks for the stats Matt. You know I'm right, but you are blinded by the light. In your case I forgive you because you can't help yourself. And your love of Moorehead makes you say thing just to get me to notice you. These other guys need to be called out however.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:11 AM
I do not agree that Eli is the only good player the giants have. I think we have a case of intense manning love around here.


who said that?

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:13 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</p>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</p>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</p>




i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play
Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride. Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

I can think of 3 balls off the top of my head that were NOT particular great placed balls that our WRs made plays on...

Either way, those balls should of been caught
</p>


It's all a % game my friend. Poor throws cause a higher % of bad things to happen. When you make accurate throws (in stride etc) the % of good things goes up. People make Warner out to be a really great QB, but in IMO he was nothing but an accurate passer then made throws to great WRs in stride and let them run after the catch - thus inflating his numbers.</p>


Are there going to be cases where a WR makes a play on a bad throw? You bet. But the %'s are against them. Romo throws behind Jones, Jones drops it. Romo throws behind Witten, Witten drops it and tips it up in the air. All "should" have been caught, but with a better throw a pop warner WR could have caught them. I realize you down really believe in QB "accuracy" due to the "hitting the hands theory" but at some point, people have to realize that making a throw between the numbers vs just hitting the hands is HUGE. The good QBs do it better then most.</p>


I haven't checked Eli's # of attemptsbut he passed for 5000 yards this year with i'm guessing similar # of attempts. Hitting people in stride and placing the ball accurately in general, = more yards per attempt. The media and the rest of the world is starting to take notice. Eli IS playing differently.</p>

im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:14 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</p>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</p>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<font size="6">. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</font></p>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</p>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</p>

that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:15 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</P>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</P>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</P>




i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play
Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride. Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

I can think of 3 balls off the top of my head that were NOT particular great placed balls that our WRs made plays on...

Either way, those balls should of been caught
</P>


It's all a % game my friend. Poor throws cause a higher % of bad things to happen. When you make accurate throws (in stride etc) the % of good things goes up. People make Warner out to be a really great QB, but in IMO he was nothing but an accurate passer then made throws to great WRs in stride and let them run after the catch - thus inflating his numbers.</P>


Are there going to be cases where a WR makes a play on a bad throw? You bet. But the %'s are against them. Romo throws behind Jones, Jones drops it. Romo throws behind Witten, Witten drops it and tips it up in the air. All "should" have been caught, but with a better throw a pop warner WR could have caught them. I realize you down really believe in QB "accuracy" due to the "hitting the hands theory" but at some point, people have to realize that making a throw between the numbers vs just hitting the hands is HUGE. The good QBs do it better then most.</P>


I haven't checked Eli's # of attemptsbut he passed for 5000 yards this year with i'm guessing similar # of attempts. Hitting people in stride and placing the ball accurately in general, = more yards per attempt. The media and the rest of the world is starting to take notice. Eli IS playing differently.</P>




im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


And if they catch an 8 yard pass are they also expected to break tackles, split defenders and run 99 yards for a TD?</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:17 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<FONT size=6>. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</FONT></P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>




that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k
</P>


And then of course comes the rest of my post which gets into that. </P>


Read Matt. You may learn something.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:17 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that. So he's playing at the *same* level, but this year was his best. So he is but he isn't. The only year where his play was as close to it is as this year was 09 if you ask me. Even eli's 4th quarter magic seemed to have disappeared these last few years and has now resurfaced. every other aspect of his stats except yards is virtually identical. compl. rate, ypa, tds...he still makes the left handed throw when he feels he can he still throws off his back foot, he still tries to fit the ball in amazingly small windows. what aspect would u say eli is a completely diff. qb than before? the yards has more to do with the horrible run game then it does with eli becoming this magical diff. qb. the stats prove that he is playing at the same level, he just had his best season to date. im not trying to say my opinion is better than urs, im open minded. it is only my opinion but im open to hear arguments and be proven wrong. i respect u as a poster, so if u can make a valid argument it could change my thinking. in what ways is eli this completely new different qb than the qb we saw from the playoff run in 07 until now? had 7 or 8 passes been tipped up for ints like last year, his int would be near last year.</p>


The one thing that I think Eli has improved on this year is his ball placement. It seems to be much better this year than in years past. Granted, our receivers now are the best YAC receivers the Giants have ever had, but Eli putting the ball in spots where the can keep running with it helps with that significantly.</p>


Also, his YPA this season is nearly a full yard higher than his previous career high. That isn't an insignificant improvement (again, the YAC our receivers get helps with that, too).</p>




i think thats the perception but not the reality. I think we are seeing the difference in Eli having people around him that can make the plays when he puts it up to them. The swing of plays not being made and be tipped up for interceptions oppose to plays being made and sometimes going for TDs will completely change the perception of a QBs play
Uhm. Check out this short throws that were tipped for picks. They were pretty bad throws - behind and sometimes high. Even if they were caught the gain would have been minimal. Eli hasn't done that this year. He's been hitting the WRs in stride. Even small things like that are HUGE. A simple example is when Romo made a bad pass to Felix Jones out in the flat. It was thrown behind Jones, but he just dropped it. It should have been caught, but bad passes increase the chance for bad things to happen.

I can think of 3 balls off the top of my head that were NOT particular great placed balls that our WRs made plays on...

Either way, those balls should of been caught
</p>


It's all a % game my friend. Poor throws cause a higher % of bad things to happen. When you make accurate throws (in stride etc) the % of good things goes up. People make Warner out to be a really great QB, but in IMO he was nothing but an accurate passer then made throws to great WRs in stride and let them run after the catch - thus inflating his numbers.</p>


Are there going to be cases where a WR makes a play on a bad throw? You bet. But the %'s are against them. Romo throws behind Jones, Jones drops it. Romo throws behind Witten, Witten drops it and tips it up in the air. All "should" have been caught, but with a better throw a pop warner WR could have caught them. I realize you down really believe in QB "accuracy" due to the "hitting the hands theory" but at some point, people have to realize that making a throw between the numbers vs just hitting the hands is HUGE. The good QBs do it better then most.</p>


I haven't checked Eli's # of attemptsbut he passed for 5000 yards this year with i'm guessing similar # of attempts. Hitting people in stride and placing the ball accurately in general, = more yards per attempt. The media and the rest of the world is starting to take notice. Eli IS playing differently.</p>




im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</p>


And if they catch an 8 yard pass are they also expected to break tackles, split defenders and run 99 yards for a TD?</p>

uhm? Whats the relevence of that to anything we are talking about

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:18 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</p>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</p>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<font size="6">. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</font></p>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</p>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</p>




that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k
</p>


And then of course comes the rest of my post which gets into that. </p>


Read Matt. You may learn something.</p>

I just didn't think u were serious in quoting Collinsworth to support your argument.

Wow, how the mighty have fallen

chasjay
01-03-2012, 09:20 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare.

Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

As a bona fide Eli homer, I never found Morehead's criticism to be mean-spirited. I did, and still do, take issue with him on the number of 2010 interceptions that truly were Eli's fault - and I have suspected that some of his criticism of Eli was due to Morehead's devotion (well-deserved devotion, I'd add) to Phil's legacy as QB.

All that said, I believe Morehead would prefer we win our next SB with a punishing ground game and smothering defense instead of with Eli winging it - but if it has to be on Eli's arm, he would take it in a NY minute.

By the way - although I despise the "elite" debates, I do post on the threads from time to time - sometimes there isn't much else to choose from.

And turnovers are game (and season) killers - no matter who or what causes them.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:23 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<FONT size=6>. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</FONT></P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>




that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k
</P>


And then of course comes the rest of my post which gets into that. </P>


Read Matt. You may learn something.</P>




I just didn't think u were serious in quoting Collinsworth to support your argument.

Wow, how the mighty have fallen
</P>


Collingsworth may be an arrogant dope, but he's a great analyst. Kinda like Johnny Miller in golf. He can tell you everything that happens in the O line 2 seconds after it happens. </P>


And when I say arrogant...I mean it. You are probably too young to remember that he insisted he could outrun a race horse when he was with the Bengals, and had a match race and got clobbered.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:24 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</p>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</p>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<font size="6">. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</font></p>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</p>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</p>




that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k
</p>


And then of course comes the rest of my post which gets into that. </p>


Read Matt. You may learn something.</p>




I just didn't think u were serious in quoting Collinsworth to support your argument.

Wow, how the mighty have fallen
</p>


Collingsworth may be an arrogant dope, but he's a great analyst. Kinda like Johnny Miller in golf. He can tell you everything that happens in the O line 2 seconds after it happens. </p>


And when I say arrogant...I mean it. You are probably too young to remember that he insisted he could outrun a race horse when he was with the Bengals, and had a match race and got clobbered.</p>

all i know is that Phil Simms typically opposes everything Collinsworth says

the line has been drawn - pick your side: SIMMS or COLLINSWORTH

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:29 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare. Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

As a bona fide Eli homer, I never found Morehead's criticism to be mean-spirited. I did, and still do, take issue with him on the number of 2010 interceptions that truly were Eli's fault - and I have suspected that some of his criticism of Eli was due to Morehead's devotion (well-deserved devotion, I'd add) to Phil's legacy as QB.

All that said, I believe Morehead would prefer we win our next SB with a punishing ground game and smothering defense instead of with Eli winging it - but if it has to be on Eli's arm, he would take it in a NY minute.

By the way - although I despise the "elite" debates, I do post on the threads from time to time - sometimes there isn't much else to choose from.

And turnovers are game (and season) killers - no matter who or what causes them.
</P>


What I blamed Eli for was every bad decision he made last year under fire. And there were plenty. bad passes don't bother me. Bad decisions do. Arguing about tipped balls is silly. None of those passes were bad decisions as I remember. One of his problems last season was that he seemed to be jacked up early in games and a lot of passes early were high. He seems to have resolved that this year as well.</P>


And it also seems that throwing the ball is the only way we are going to win right now. In a perfect world? Yes, running the ball works better because its so demoralizing to a defense when you can't stop the run.</P>


I do appreciate your kind words.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:30 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much<FONT size=6>. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</FONT></P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>




that point kind of gets destroyed since we're in this year and he was like 30 yards short of 5k
</P>


And then of course comes the rest of my post which gets into that. </P>


Read Matt. You may learn something.</P>




I just didn't think u were serious in quoting Collinsworth to support your argument.

Wow, how the mighty have fallen
</P>


Collingsworth may be an arrogant dope, but he's a great analyst. Kinda like Johnny Miller in golf. He can tell you everything that happens in the O line 2 seconds after it happens. </P>


And when I say arrogant...I mean it. You are probably too young to remember that he insisted he could outrun a race horse when he was with the Bengals, and had a match race and got clobbered.</P>




all i know is that Phil Simms typically opposes everything Collinsworth says

the line has been drawn - pick your side: SIMMS or COLLINSWORTH
</P>


Do they disagree about Eli?</P>


Allllrrrrrighttttty thennnnnnn!!!!!!!!!</P>


</P>


And I agree with you...that <U>IS </U>all you know.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 09:33 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare. Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

As a bona fide Eli homer, I never found Morehead's criticism to be mean-spirited. I did, and still do, take issue with him on the number of 2010 interceptions that truly were Eli's fault - and I have suspected that some of his criticism of Eli was due to Morehead's devotion (well-deserved devotion, I'd add) to Phil's legacy as QB.

All that said, I believe Morehead would prefer we win our next SB with a punishing ground game and smothering defense instead of with Eli winging it - but if it has to be on Eli's arm, he would take it in a NY minute.

By the way - although I despise the "elite" debates, I do post on the threads from time to time - sometimes there isn't much else to choose from.

And turnovers are game (and season) killers - no matter who or what causes them.
</p>


What I blamed Eli for was every bad decision he made last year under fire. And there were plenty. bad passes don't bother me. Bad decisions do. Arguing about tipped balls is silly. None of those passes were bad decisions as I remember. One of his problems last season was that he seemed to be jacked up early in games and a lot of passes early were high. He seems to have resolved that this year as well.</p>


And it also seems that throwing the ball is the only way we are going to win right now. In a perfect world? Yes, running the ball works better because its so demoralizing to a defense when you can't stop the run.</p>


I do appreciate your kind words.</p>

but thats not true

u DONT kill him for that because he has done alot of those same type of plays THIS year with the difference of the play being completed or not intercepted. Your standards have become vague and COMPLETELY based on production which is essentially stats

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:40 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare. Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

As a bona fide Eli homer, I never found Morehead's criticism to be mean-spirited. I did, and still do, take issue with him on the number of 2010 interceptions that truly were Eli's fault - and I have suspected that some of his criticism of Eli was due to Morehead's devotion (well-deserved devotion, I'd add) to Phil's legacy as QB.

All that said, I believe Morehead would prefer we win our next SB with a punishing ground game and smothering defense instead of with Eli winging it - but if it has to be on Eli's arm, he would take it in a NY minute.

By the way - although I despise the "elite" debates, I do post on the threads from time to time - sometimes there isn't much else to choose from.

And turnovers are game (and season) killers - no matter who or what causes them.
</P>


What I blamed Eli for was every bad decision he made last year under fire. And there were plenty. bad passes don't bother me. Bad decisions do. Arguing about tipped balls is silly. None of those passes were bad decisions as I remember. One of his problems last season was that he seemed to be jacked up early in games and a lot of passes early were high. He seems to have resolved that this year as well.</P>


And it also seems that throwing the ball is the only way we are going to win right now. In a perfect world? Yes, running the ball works better because its so demoralizing to a defense when you can't stop the run.</P>


I do appreciate your kind words.</P>




but thats not true

u DONT kill him for that because he has done alot of those same type of plays THIS year with the difference of the play being completed or not intercepted. Your standards have become vague and COMPLETELY based on production which is essentially stats


</P>


Wrong. His pocket play is what I go by. Its that that has improved. The elevated yardage number is a product of a season where no one is playing any defense. Plus several great plays made by Victor Cruz on short passes.</P>


Passing stats are not the definitive measure of a QB. I go by his play. Its you Matt who loves those passing yardage stats.</P>

yatitle
01-03-2012, 09:47 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</p>


Good posts. </p>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </p>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </p>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</p>


</p>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</p>


He had a horrible season.</p>


08 was very good</p>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</p>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</p>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</p>


MS, I love how you back up your highly subjective statements ("terrible") with no data. Eli's 2010 season was very muchinline with the rest of his career with one exception...the higher number of picks. His 2010 season wasso "terrible" that he threw for over 4000 yards of offense and had31 TD's. You really need to try and get a clue. </p>


Btw, your namesake, Mr. Simms, in the 1986 SuperBowl year threw 21 INT's while throwing the ball much less than Eli does. He also had more INT's than TD's, something Eli does not do even in 2010 when Eli had a 31/25 ratio....yet you worship Simms, yet love to bash Eli. </p>


I did admire how you tended to keep a lower profile during this season as yourincessant off-season Eli rantsmade you look rather silly. I tried telling you and some of the other haters back then how sillyyour weak arguments were....but you just wouldn't listen.</p>


Did someone named Eli steal your lunch money when you were a kid? I'm just trying to understand the root of your Eli issues. Just eat the crow.</p>


</p>


Whack job #1 heard from.</p>


Low profile....Morehead? You really are a whack job!</p>


I have 3000 posts since the season started.</p>

Much like you with QBs I don't judge posters by stats. 3000 posts since season started, what a shameless self promoter.

gumby742
01-03-2012, 09:50 AM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine. But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</P>


Agood throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play. The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</P>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good. Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not. Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating. Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency. Eli has been efficient this year.</P>


</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better. I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make. that spin move, plant and hurl a 50 yd was amazing. cant see too many other qbs doing that at all. and for the talk about "he's never been at this level", just wrong. yes this is his best year, but he HAS been at this level starting in the 07 playoff run. 08-10ints 09-14ints 2010-anomaly year 25 ints, more than the prior two years combined. 2011-16 ints. every year since the playoff run, 4000 yards or right at it, 30 tds or right at it. 60% compl or improves. the thing with the yards, we had one of the better running attacks in the league, so eli wasnt asked to gain as many yards as this year when our run game disappeared. he still makes the left handed throw, still throws off his back foot, still tries to fit the pass into tight windows. the only diff. between this year and the years prior is the yardage, and again, that is due to the lack of running game. im not saying eli didnt play his best this year, i am saying that eli has been at this level since 07 playoff run. facts support that. its just in 08, plex shot himself and that erased his year. 09, our defense sucked balls and that erased his year. the int issue last year erased any thought of the immense positives he had. this claim that eli is a new qb or something is just wrong. the only thing thats diff. between this year and the years prior was an abysmal run game. thats it. same qb, same style of play. same level. although he played his best this year and there is no disputing that.</P>


Good posts. </P>


I agree, he's been playing at a very high level for years now. Last year's INT total was anomalous when compared to his previous seasons and career trend. I thinkseveral of us tried to point that out to "the sky is falling"group this past offseason and during the early part of this season, but wereunsuccessful with the hardline haters. </P>


2011 was another very good year for Eli. It was his definitely his best for total passing yards and passing yards per attempt....but was nothis best for other common QB metrics such as: Competion percentage; TD's; TD%; INT%; and even QB Rating. Regarding his INT's, his 2011 INT% was 2.7% was back in line with his 2009 INT% (2.8%) and not quite as good as his 2008 INT% (2.1%). </P>


We've been fortunate to have a very good, durableQB for years now and he's just in his prime.</P>


</P>


No reasonable person on earth, including Eli Manning himself would ever suggest that he played at a "high level" in 2010.</P>


He had a horrible season.</P>


08 was very good</P>


09 was still good but his 2nd half was a bit down</P>


10 was his worst year as a pro (excluding his rookie season)</P>


11 was by far his best season. Far superior pocket awareness than any other season.</P>


MS, I love how you back up your highly subjective statements ("terrible") with no data. Eli's 2010 season was very muchinline with the rest of his career with one exception...the higher number of picks. His 2010 season wasso "terrible" that he threw for over 4000 yards of offense and had31 TD's. You really need to try and get a clue. </P>


Btw, your namesake, Mr. Simms, in the 1986 SuperBowl year threw 21 INT's while throwing the ball much less than Eli does. He also had more INT's than TD's, something Eli does not do even in 2010 when Eli had a 31/25 ratio....yet you worship Simms, yet love to bash Eli. </P>


I did admire how you tended to keep a lower profile during this season as yourincessant off-season Eli rantsmade you look rather silly. I tried telling you and some of the other haters back then how sillyyour weak arguments were....but you just wouldn't listen.</P>


Did someone named Eli steal your lunch money when you were a kid? I'm just trying to understand the root of your Eli issues. Just eat the crow.</P>


</P>


Whack job #1 heard from.</P>


Low profile....Morehead? You really are a whack job!</P>


I have 3000 posts since the season started.</P>




Much like you with QBs I don't judge posters by stats. 3000 posts since season started, what a shameless self promoter.
</P>


Actually its an embarrassing fact. My team is a preoccupation with me.</P>


But I was responding to the guy who says I dissappeared during the season.</P>


And if you want shameless promotion please go to my websight and become a fan.</P>


PLEASE!!!! I need the love.!!!!!</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 09:52 AM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine. But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</P>


Agood throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play. The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</P>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good. Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not. Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating. Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency. Eli has been efficient this year.</P>


</P>


</P>


The notion that Eli is an inaccurate passer is way off base. As I said his problem last season seemed to be to get too jacked up early in games and make some high (tippable) throws.</P>


But I think Eli makes some of the nicest passes in the league, especially to the deep sidelines.</P>


My problem has been his decision making. Its that aspect that has been a huge improvement this year.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 10:18 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not.* I hate stats when trying to define a football player.* In baseball, you're all alone at the plate.* In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards.* That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind.* Generally speaking,* our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much.* It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011.* This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless.* Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF).* Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above.* I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception.** But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate.* Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game.* Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have.* Eli is better in the pocket.</P>

but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years."

see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion.

edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can.

I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?

burier
01-03-2012, 10:25 AM
Bottom line is every year that Eli Manning has been in the NFL he has improved as QB. His numbers get better over his career and even in seasons where certain stats have remained steady the eyeball test still reports ncremental improvement.

The problem is the 6 degrees that separate Eli's play from season to season have now finally gotten to the point where Eli is now being universally recognized as an elite player creating a quandry for his naysayers as it requires some sack to admit that you've beern blindly blowing smoke for 7 whole years.

I've stated numerous times this season and its been repeated by other posters that Eli's stats are just slightly better this year then they were last year. His yards are up quite a bit. His TDs are right where they were and his INTs are down from last year but right in line with what he's done throughout his career.

How do you reconcile that? How can Eli's numbers be so close to his numbers from previous years but suddenly you give him credit and claim he's play SOOOOO much better this season?

I'll tell you how. You'll use nondescript non-specific terms like "DECISION MAKING"

But if you live in some Poe-dunk town in Massachusetts I'd hardly call you an authority on decision making.

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 10:27 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not.* I hate stats when trying to define a football player.* In baseball, you're all alone at the plate.* In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards.* That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind.* Generally speaking,* our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much.* It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011.* This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless.* Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF).* Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above.* I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception.** But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate.* Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game.* Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have.* Eli is better in the pocket.</P>

but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years."

see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion.

edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can.

I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?

good post burier, im just rebumping my last post bc i'd llike to continue my conversation with MS and get his take on what i've posed to him.

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 10:29 AM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</p>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine. But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</p>


Agood throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play. The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</p>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good. Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not. Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating. Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency. Eli has been efficient this year.</p>


</p>

i don't consider a catchable ball a poor throw...

may not be a great throw, but if it gets there its an effective ball

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 10:31 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 10:35 AM
Bottom line is every year that Eli Manning has been in the NFL he has improved as QB. His numbers get better over his career and even in seasons where certain stats have remained steady the eyeball test still reports ncremental improvement. The problem is the 6 degrees that separate Eli's play from season to season have now finally gotten to the point where Eli is now being universally recognized as an elite player creating a quandry for his naysayers as it requires some sack to admit that you've beern blindly blowing smoke for 7 whole years. I've stated numerous times this season and its been repeated by other posters that Eli's stats are just slightly better this year then they were last year. His yards are up quite a bit. His TDs are right where they were and his INTs are down from last year but right in line with what he's done throughout his career. How do you reconcile that? How can Eli's numbers be so close to his numbers from previous years but suddenly you give him credit and claim he's play SOOOOO much better this season? I'll tell you how. You'll use nondescript non-specific terms like "DECISION MAKING" But if you live in some Poe-dunk town in Massachusetts I'd hardly call you an authority on decision making.</P>


What the heck is a "Poe-dunk town?</P>


And for the first time in his career he IS being talked about as a top 5 QB. Which is exactly my point.</P>


He's now demonstrating the kind of pocket presence that is required to be that kind of player.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 10:36 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not.* I hate stats when trying to define a football player.* In baseball, you're all alone at the plate.* In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards.* That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind.* Generally speaking,* our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much.* It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011.* This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless.* Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF).* Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above.* I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception.** But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate.* Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game.* Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have.* Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past.* I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true?* Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks.* Maybe confidence builds from there.* I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game.* But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone.* I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game.* These are things he simply didn't do last season.* He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>

but u havent answered my question, does what u just post make eli this completely different, brand new qb we've never seen, or does it mean that eli is the same qb from the years prior who has improved on certain aspects of his game?

u can say it man...we all know the answer already...

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 10:36 AM
Bottom line is every year that Eli Manning has been in the NFL he has improved as QB. His numbers get better over his career and even in seasons where certain stats have remained steady the eyeball test still reports ncremental improvement.

The problem is the 6 degrees that separate Eli's play from season to season have now finally gotten to the point where Eli is now being universally recognized as an elite player creating a quandry for his naysayers as it requires some sack to admit that you've beern blindly blowing smoke for 7 whole years.

I've stated numerous times this season and its been repeated by other posters that Eli's stats are just slightly better this year then they were last year. His yards are up quite a bit. His TDs are right where they were and his INTs are down from last year but right in line with what he's done throughout his career.

How do you reconcile that? How can Eli's numbers be so close to his numbers from previous years but suddenly you give him credit and claim he's play SOOOOO much better this season?

I'll tell you how. You'll use nondescript non-specific terms like "DECISION MAKING"

But if you live in some Poe-dunk town in Massachusetts I'd hardly call you an authority on decision making.

http://th13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/ahuacate/Smilies/th_eatpopcorn.gif

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 10:37 AM
Bottom line is every year that Eli Manning has been in the NFL he has improved as QB. His numbers get better over his career and even in seasons where certain stats have remained steady the eyeball test still reports ncremental improvement. The problem is the 6 degrees that separate Eli's play from season to season have now finally gotten to the point where Eli is now being universally recognized as an elite player creating a quandry for his naysayers as it requires some sack to admit that you've beern blindly blowing smoke for 7 whole years. I've stated numerous times this season and its been repeated by other posters that Eli's stats are just slightly better this year then they were last year. His yards are up quite a bit. His TDs are right where they were and his INTs are down from last year but right in line with what he's done throughout his career. How do you reconcile that? How can Eli's numbers be so close to his numbers from previous years but suddenly you give him credit and claim he's play SOOOOO much better this season? I'll tell you how. You'll use nondescript non-specific terms like "DECISION MAKING" But if you live in some Poe-dunk town in Massachusetts I'd hardly call you an authority on decision making.</p>


What the heck is a "Poe-dunk town?</p>


And for the first time in his career he IS being talked about as a top 5 QB. Which is exactly my point.</p>


He's now demonstrating the kind of pocket presence that is required to be that kind of player.</p>

would he have if he didn't have his preseason comments baout being elite?

All of a sudden your all about what the masses and talking heads say? Inconsistant Moorehead, which is consistant for moorehead

Sarcasman
01-03-2012, 10:40 AM
This year has been Morehead's nightmare. Eli is a GOD!!!!!!!!!

As a bona fide Eli homer, I never found Morehead's criticism to be mean-spirited. I did, and still do, take issue with him on the number of 2010 interceptions that truly were Eli's fault - and I have suspected that some of his criticism of Eli was due to Morehead's devotion (well-deserved devotion, I'd add) to Phil's legacy as QB.

All that said, I believe Morehead would prefer we win our next SB with a punishing ground game and smothering defense instead of with Eli winging it - but if it has to be on Eli's arm, he would take it in a NY minute.

By the way - although I despise the "elite" debates, I do post on the threads from time to time - sometimes there isn't much else to choose from.

And turnovers are game (and season) killers - no matter who or what causes them.
</P>


What I blamed Eli for was every bad decision he made last year under fire.* And there were plenty.* bad passes don't bother me.* Bad decisions do.* Arguing about tipped balls is silly.* None of those passes were bad decisions as I remember.* One of his problems last season was that he seemed to be jacked up early in games and a lot of passes early were high.* He seems to have resolved that this year as well.</P>


And it also seems that throwing the ball is the only way we are going to win right now.* In a perfect world? Yes, running the ball works better because its so demoralizing to a defense when you can't stop the run.</P>


I do appreciate your kind words.</P>




but thats not true

u DONT kill him for that because he has done alot of those same type of plays THIS year with the difference of the play being completed or not intercepted.* Your standards have become vague and COMPLETELY based on production which is essentially stats


</P>


Wrong.* His pocket play is what I go by.* Its that that has improved.* The elevated yardage number is a product of a season where no one is playing any defense.* Plus several great plays made by Victor Cruz on short passes.</P>


Passing stats are not the definitive measure of a QB.* I go by his play.* Its you Matt who loves those passing yardage stats.</P>


For the record, my pocket play has also improved significantly since my wife has been out of town.

Not that anyone asked.

Carry on.

burier
01-03-2012, 10:48 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not.* I hate stats when trying to define a football player.* In baseball, you're all alone at the plate.* In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards.* That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind.* Generally speaking,* our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much.* It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011.* This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless.* Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF).* Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above.* I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception.** But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate.* Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game.* Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have.* Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past.* I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true?* Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks.* Maybe confidence builds from there.* I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game.* But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone.* I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game.* These are things he simply didn't do last season.* He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>

((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...He takes a few more sacks but that is INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT))


Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****.

Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie.

I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate.

Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER!

In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back.

In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where he had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass.

Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime.

Lets just cut the **** because we all know that Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings.

I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 10:51 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


but u havent answered my question, does what u just post make eli this completely different, brand new qb we've never seen, or does it mean that eli is the same qb from the years prior who has improved on certain aspects of his game? u can say it man...we all know the answer already...</P>


Who said he was a "completely different" QB? I'm saying his pocket presence has improved and that makes every aspect of his play better.</P>


You guys kill me. I'm saying he is a top 5 QB this year. I'm saying he definately wasn't last year. And a lot of QB's have had huge years.</P>


I'm giving the kid credit for playing well. Take it and run people. Morehead is pro-Eli, just as I have usually been. Some dope just said that I've been anti-Eli for 7 years. I've only been on the boards for 4 1/2. I've accepted some of him brain farts because thats just who he was. Last year he took that to a new level. And its not even Eli I was calling out. It was some of these fans who completely ignore the shortcomings in Eli's game and think he was an elite QB last season. He wasn't.</P>


Now Eli has stepped up his game. I'm happy about it. Its some of you guys that have to twist and distort this reality as meaning something else. Somehow in your eyes, his bad decisions last season was the product of the poor play of others. That Eli was a victim of horrible teammates.</P>


Good thing Eli didn't take the same positions as some of you guys. He listened to his coach, he watched the film and came out this year determined to get better.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 10:54 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Here's your post. Not even the most avid Eli Cultist would agree with this.</P>


I think Eli is the best QB in the league. I think he's been there for years not but has made that finaly step that makes me feel like there's no one out there who's better.

I've said this before but he makes throws that the other guys in the top teir can't make.
</P>


....Burier
</P>

burier
01-03-2012, 11:00 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not.* I hate stats when trying to define a football player.* In baseball, you're all alone at the plate.* In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards.* That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind.* Generally speaking,* our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much.* It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011.* This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless.* Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF).* Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above.* I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception.** But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate.* Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game.* Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have.* Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past.* I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true?* Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks.* Maybe confidence builds from there.* I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game.* But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone.* I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game.* These are things he simply didn't do last season.* He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010.* He's been a very good QB his entire career.* Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned.* Its a good thing.** Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>

I did say that.

Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point.

You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve.

Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are.

Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date.

The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 11:17 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 11:30 AM
MS, I know MMB will back me on this too as I have seen countless conversations between u two where that is the main battle point. u have said often that eli is this new qb playing completely different than last year and in years past. dont try and change that stance.

no one would say eli was a top 3 or top 5 qb based on strictly his play from last year. now YOU are making things up about others. no one was pleased with the 25 ints, but we felt it deserved noting that the giants led the league in drops and that anywheres from 6 to 10 ints were clearly balls that at worst should have been incomplete.

i have seen MMB and u go back and forth countlessly about how ud say eli wouldnt make the kind of passes he had last year this year and that eli was playing at a completely different, unheard of level and that his play prior to this season was way way different than his play this year.

i dunno if u missed it when i actually gave u credit and said u have a very good football mind and i respect almost everything u say except for when it comes to eli manning. pls try not to lump me in with the one or two posters who do go way overboard they do not represent me or posters like MMB and others.

remember when u were going onand on about the eli cultists and accused even me of that? how u would go "the eli cultists are everywhere" when in fact i would ask u to provide a post or poster that demonstrated that and u couldnt? it was a way for u to duck out of a debate when u were outgunned imo.

and id respect u a lot more if u were consistent with ur arguments which i guess MMB was right in saying ur consistent with ur inconsistencies. u have repeatedly stated that elis play was completely diff. than last year and he wasnt throwing the same kinds of passes as last year and that he was playing completely different than last year. I KNOW MMB will vouch for that bc I vouch for that as I have seen u present that argument repreatedly and even in this thread.
u then took that to mean that we liked eli throwing 25 ints last year, lol. cmon man.

and ur point about what eli himself would say is just off. of course any qb will say he needs to protect the ball better after 25 ints, esp. a guy like eli when he will NEVER throw a teammate under the bus. BUT how do u explain eli, BEFORE this season during the offseason Eli saying he believed he was a top 5 qb and in brady's league????

burier
01-03-2012, 11:34 AM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>


</P>


</P>


Don't call me a liar. I don't have to lie.</P>


I don't chronicle your interactions with other posters but I as it pertains to me you've posted that "Eli needs a great team around him" Called him inconsistent and discredited any playoff appearences as if to say that Eli was along for the ride etc etc etc.In one thread I specifically remember having to remind you that we've have but2 probowlers at a skill position since Eli's been in the league. In another thread I had to remind you that Eli's on his second OC, his third Quarterback coach and his 4th DC as I argued to the contracy that Eli is actually one of the few consistent things about our team. You're gonna deny that??</P>


</P>

gumby742
01-03-2012, 12:43 PM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine. But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</P>


Agood throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play. The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</P>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good. Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not. Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating. Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency. Eli has been efficient this year.</P>


</P>


</P>


The notion that Eli is an inaccurate passer is way off base. As I said his problem last season seemed to be to get too jacked up early in games and make some high (tippable) throws.</P>


But I think Eli makes some of the nicest passes in the league, especially to the deep sidelines.</P>


My problem has been his decision making. Its that aspect that has been a huge improvement this year.</P>


</P>


I don't think you can say that it's even remotely way off base. If it was, there wouldn't be a lot of people and media saying so. If there is a overwhelming perception, there's a reason. Whether or not you agree with it is another thing all together. </P>


His decision making is better. But from what I see, his accuracy is a million times better. We don't see a lot of the pirouettes from our WRs anymore. When our WRs are open down the field, Eli hits them in stride. It really is night and day. My biggest issue with Eli isn't his ability to hit the difficult throw - especially on the sidelines. We all know he has the talent. It's the really, really easy ones when the WR is running 4-5 steps away from the defender. Eli in the past was either missing those or making it more difficult then need be.</P>

gumby742
01-03-2012, 12:51 PM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>


</P>


</P>


Don't call me a liar. I don't have to lie.</P>


I don't chronicle your interactions with other posters but I as it pertains to me you've posted that "Eli needs a great team around him" Called him inconsistent and discredited any playoff appearences as if to say that Eli was along for the ride etc etc etc.In one thread I specifically remember having to remind you that we've have but2 probowlers at a skill position since Eli's been in the league. In another thread I had to remind you that Eli's on his second OC, his third Quarterback coach and his 4th DC as I argued to the contracy that Eli is actually one of the few consistent things about our team. You're gonna deny that??</P>


</P>


</P>


MS was pro Eli at one point. The reason why I know was because at one point I had a really, really bad day and Eli like usual was the hot topic. There was banter back and forth and MS was involved. I flipped out and typed some really offensive stuff. He replied with: "You have some serious issues." It made me take a step back to cool off and destress at the particular point in time in life.</P>


lol.</P>

nycsportzfan
01-03-2012, 01:49 PM
Eli is a Solid as can be QB but not "ELITE" Elite QB's dont throw 6tds and 6int's down the stretch which is what ELI did the last 4games before that Dallas Gem He mixes in some ELITE games along the way but has games where he makes some crucial mistakes and often takes to long to get going that we are forced to make frantic comeback attempts in the 4th qter I don't consider matt ryan elite and he had just as good a Season as ELI if not a tad better Again i am glad we have ELI and he can make some sensational plays and throws and is a very good QB but i just don't see "ELITE" status with hm I just think hes a very good QB

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 01:54 PM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>


</P>


</P>


Don't call me a liar. I don't have to lie.</P>


I don't chronicle your interactions with other posters but I as it pertains to me you've posted that "Eli needs a great team around him" Called him inconsistent and discredited any playoff appearences as if to say that Eli was along for the ride etc etc etc.In one thread I specifically remember having to remind you that we've have but2 probowlers at a skill position since Eli's been in the league. In another thread I had to remind you that Eli's on his second OC, his third Quarterback coach and his 4th DC as I argued to the contracy that Eli is actually one of the few consistent things about our team. You're gonna deny that??</P>


</P>


</P>


If you say that I have been anti Eli since I have been here you are either making it up, an idiot or a bold faced liar. The romantic in me wants to believe that you are a liar, but thats me. Lets just leave it at the presumption that your agenda has so blinded you, that your memory has been skewed.</P>


Its less fun that way but lets go with it.</P>


And no offense but I have no memory of you before this past year. I know of no interaction with you before 2010 at all. I'm not saying it didn't happen but if I had any, you must have been so boring and uninteresting that there was nothing to remember.</P>


As for the discussions you are referring to, I'm sure they took place in the last year. Which is when I started my criticism of Eli's play.</P>

Sarcasman
01-03-2012, 01:54 PM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine.* But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</P>


A*good throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play.* The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</P>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good.* Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not.* Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating.* Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency.* Eli has been efficient this year.</P>


*</P>


</P>


The notion that Eli is an inaccurate passer is way off base.* As I said his problem last season seemed to be to get too jacked up early in games and make some high (tippable) throws.</P>


But I think Eli makes some of the nicest passes in the league, especially to the deep sidelines.</P>


My problem has been his decision making.* Its that aspect that has been a huge improvement this year.</P>


</P>


I don't think you can say that it's even remotely way off base.* If it was, there wouldn't be a lot of people and media saying so.* If there is a overwhelming perception, there's a reason.* Whether or not you agree with it is another thing all together.* </P>


His decision making is better.* But from what I see, his accuracy is a million times better.* We don't see a lot of the pirouettes from our WRs anymore.* When our WRs are open down the field, Eli hits them in stride.* It really is night and day.* My biggest issue with Eli isn't his ability to hit the difficult throw - especially on the sidelines.* We all know he has the talent.* It's the really, really easy ones when the WR is running 4-5 steps away from the defender.* Eli in the past was either missing those or making it more difficult then need be.</P>

I'm not sure I'd consider what "a lot of people and media are saying" as even the most remote barometer of anything intelligent or well researched.

In fact, I'm sure I would not.

A lot of people are stupid. And misinformed. And they believe what they hear and read from so called experts in the media. Then it's just a feedback loop of idiocy. I think when we allow an uneducated majority to be regarded as an unbiased arbiter we end up with moronic proclamations like:

- the pro bowl is an indication that one player is clearly better than others at his position

or, more ridiculous:

- the NFL Top 100 players is indicative of the actual quality of talent in the league

I think we are all best left to judge things with our own eyes.

burier
01-03-2012, 01:54 PM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>


</P>


</P>


Don't call me a liar. I don't have to lie.</P>


I don't chronicle your interactions with other posters but I as it pertains to me you've posted that "Eli needs a great team around him" Called him inconsistent and discredited any playoff appearences as if to say that Eli was along for the ride etc etc etc.In one thread I specifically remember having to remind you that we've have but2 probowlers at a skill position since Eli's been in the league. In another thread I had to remind you that Eli's on his second OC, his third Quarterback coach and his 4th DC as I argued to the contracy that Eli is actually one of the few consistent things about our team. You're gonna deny that??</P>


</P>


</P>


MS was pro Eli at one point. The reason why I know was because at one point I had a really, really bad day and Eli like usual was the hot topic. There was banter back and forth and MS was involved. I flipped out and typed some really offensive stuff. He replied with: "You have some serious issues." It made me take a step back to cool off and destress at the particular point in time in life.</P>


lol.</P>


</P>


</P>


Like I said I'm not a MS groupie. I don't keep track of his every post but in our interactions he's been down on Eli as far as I can remember. Perhaps he's inconsistent. I don't know.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 01:56 PM
MS, weren't u the poster who used to use stats all the time to try and label Eli? I remember u saying all the time that if eli threw for more than 4000 yards that we wouldnt make the playoffs and wouldnt be a good team. not including the defensive play, u would just say "eli throws for more than 4000 yards and we will be watching the playoffs again". u were just as guilty of using stats to make ur point when eli "struggled" according to you. now that eli's stats are top notch all across the board its "silly" to use stats to describe his play? I too think that stats should not be relied on to determine how a player performs, but stats also have their merit in piecing together a players performance. My main thing is wins. how is the team in terms of wins to losses. if u look at it that way, last year the giants won more games than this year. also, my bad if i took ur comments before to heart. i just dont like when some one implies im an idiot and he knows more than me. but back to the point, do you really believe that your stance is the end all 100% correct assessment of eli, or would u concede that its just ur opinion? i ask, bc u cant give any sort of concrete evidence to back ur claim, only "i go by what I see on the field" and "there are no stats to show for how eli has played in the pocket and how he's decided to throw the ball away more"...in fact, u really havent made a good argument at all bc u resort to seeming like just "because u see it it has to be right", are u saying that since u are the minority in this debate that the people who agree and make the majority are all just not as smart as you? that we dont see the same thing u do and that we arent watching the game like u do? it really is all subjective is my point. there is no way u can definitively say or come close to proving that eli is this new qb who is playing completely different than years past. and ur point about eli saying he had a horrible year is just wrong too, bc he said before this season even began, that he felt his play up to this season belonged in the same class as brady. to use ur statement "id trust eli's opinion on this over anyone elses." in fact, eli said he belonged in brady's class but he just had to be a little more careful with the ball and take some more sacks. so him actually doing that constitutes he's this completely different, new player?? no...no not at all.</P>


Absolutely not. I hate stats when trying to define a football player. In baseball, you're all alone at the plate. In football, your success is directly dependant on your teammates.</P>


Your point is well taken about my view of Eli throwing for too many yards. That, in our case is usually indicative of a team who can't run the ball and who is constantly behind. Generally speaking, our team has excelled when we didn't throw the ball too much, or at least depened on the pass too much. It should be no coincidence that the two years that Eli threw for 4000 yards were the only two years we missed the playoffs.</P>


Enter NFL 2011. This is a season where defense has been essentially meaningless. Of the 6 teams in the NFC playoffs, only one plays any defense at all (SF). Not sure if its the lockout, injuries etc.. or all of the above. I don't know if this season represents the rule or the exception. But when the two top seeds have the two worst defenses in football, all the existing preconceptions about the NFL are turned upside down.</P>


And I don't believe I'm in the minority at all on this debate. Chris Collingsworth said essentially the exact thing I've been saying on Sunday's game. Most who don't have a stake in the Giants success have also argued the same things I have. Eli is better in the pocket.</P>


but that is my point. does the fact that "eli is better in the pocket" mean he is this new, completely different qb? or that the qb from the 07 playoff run up to now has just improved on one aspect? granted, improving on that has led to his best year by far. BUT, to me at least, that doesn't warrant that "eli has never played like this and is a completely different qb playing much different than prior years." see the thing is, I actually AGREE with MUCH of what u say about eli, as u DO HAVE A VERY BRIGHT FOOTBALL MIND. BUT, I think the 25 int year weighs too heavily in ur view of eli, bc u maintain that bc "he is moving around in the pocket better" when technically that could be argued well bc he has much more sacks this year than last, that Eli is this new QB who is playing like never before. when that simply is not true, at least in my opinion. edit- he's still making many of the same decisions that he got killed for last year, he still tries to fit throws into amazingly tight windows, he still goes for the big play whenever he feels he can. I agree he is moving in the pocket a lil better and avoiding the pass rush better, but does that warrant the idea that this eli manning is leap years ahead of the manning prior to this season and that he's this new, completely different qb? i'd like ur answer to that, does the fact he throws the ball away once or twice more a game, and that he avoids the pass rush a bit better constitute the idea that this is a completely new and different eli manning then past years?</P>


He doesn't panic in the pocket amid a pass rush like he has been guilty of in the past. I promise you he was very dissatisfied with his results last season.</P>


Why is this true? Probably starts with the conscious decisions to throw balls away, dump it off to backs (which started in the Rams game) and take sacks. Maybe confidence builds from there. I'm not going to claim that I understand all the dynamics involved in making these kinds of adjustments to his game. But its clear to me that he has made them.</P>


All I can say is that I no longer wince when Eli is under pass rush pressure for fear of making a head scratching, foolish decision.</P>


Its anecdotal, but just this past game I watched him throw the ball away more than once in the red zone. I watched him tuck the ball down and run for 10 yards on third and long, KNOWING that we needed a FG to make it a 2 score game. These are things he simply didn't do last season. He tended to try to jam the ball into coverage when no ther options were there downfield.</P>


((Eli tried to jam the ball in last season and he tries to Jam the ball in this season. He's a gunslinger always will be. He's throwing a few more a way...takes a few more sacks but that INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT)) Sorry but this panicing stuff you're trying to sell is complete Bull ****. Eli has always been cool in the pocket...even as rookie. I hate to repeat myself but in the case its approprate. Eli Manning over his career has played some of his best games against his division foes The Cowboys and the Eagles. Two teams that consistently boast top flight pass rushes. The Cowboys have who many call the best pass rusher in the league and the Eagles have always been a pressure/ high blitz scheme defense and Eli has shredded these defenses amid serious pass rush THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER! In fact he was sacked something like 8 times in a comback victory over Philly a few years back. In his second year in the league he had his coming out party against San Diego IN San Diego (One of the more riled up and vicious crowds I've seen due to mass hatred of Eli Manning) where had to face a Juiced up Shawn Merriman and was basically running for his life while completing pass after pass. Please note the level of specificity I use when forming my arguments. Try it sometime. Lets just cut the **** because we all know that. Quarterbacks who Panic in the pocket don't have Superbowl rings. I don't know if you actually believe the nonsense you post or if you're just a career troll at this point.</P>


Again, my complaints about Eli are almost exclusively about his play in 2010. He's been a very good QB his entire career. Last year was a large step backwards.</P>


He learned. Its a good thing. Aren't you the guy who said that he was the best QB in the NFL just a few days ago?</P>


Your credibility is shot after that comment.</P>


I did say that. Let the record show that you disagree with me on that point. You might think my credibility is shot but I think I'm just a head of the curve. Next season when everyone else is saying Eli is "Playing as good as any QB in the league right now" You'll be saying that he's now putting better velocity on the ball or some other completely nebulous BS to explain away how wrong you are. Edit: And while we're talking about Credibility why don't you take a look over to the left of your screen and check out my join date. The fact that you try to say that your problem with Eli is isolated to last season ruins YOUR credibility as anyone who's been here as long as I have no you've bashed Eli from day 1.</P>


Complete Bull****. I was definately a pro Eli poster until last year. You may remember some of my epic battles with Plaxico25 and Izbo along those lines.</P>


Maybe MMB can retrieve posts from before 2010 to back it up. </P>


You piss me off when you lie your *** off like. Make an argument but don't make **** up.</P>


</P>


</P>


Don't call me a liar. I don't have to lie.</P>


I don't chronicle your interactions with other posters but I as it pertains to me you've posted that "Eli needs a great team around him" Called him inconsistent and discredited any playoff appearences as if to say that Eli was along for the ride etc etc etc.In one thread I specifically remember having to remind you that we've have but2 probowlers at a skill position since Eli's been in the league. In another thread I had to remind you that Eli's on his second OC, his third Quarterback coach and his 4th DC as I argued to the contracy that Eli is actually one of the few consistent things about our team. You're gonna deny that??</P>


</P>


</P>


MS was pro Eli at one point. The reason why I know was because at one point I had a really, really bad day and Eli like usual was the hot topic. There was banter back and forth and MS was involved. I flipped out and typed some really offensive stuff. He replied with: "You have some serious issues." It made me take a step back to cool off and destress at the particular point in time in life.</P>


lol.</P>


</P>


Thank you for casting some light on this darkness. I'm afraid that I am often a tad too sarcastic. (at least thats what my ex wife tells me)</P>

lnp12
01-03-2012, 02:43 PM
His pocket presence is amazing. </p>


He knows when to take a sack, and when to throw it away. </p>


</p>

I think he learned that one the hard way after having 25 interceptions last year...definitely paid off!Eli has been remarkable this year, he's been a solid constant in a rather fluctuating season.

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 02:53 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lnp12
01-03-2012, 02:54 PM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

Especially when you take into account how bad some of our biggest contenders' defenses are...Packers and Patriots have two of the worst defenses in the league (when it comes to yards and TDs allowed) but their amazing QBs make up for it. If our defense can stop them, we have a chance of going all the way.

gumby742
01-03-2012, 02:55 PM
im from that weird school that still believes that if the ball hits the WR in both hands its on the WR. Hakeem Nicks even said that if its within 3 feet radius its on him. He gets paid to make it happen
</P>


If you want to "officially" blame one side for any drops, that's fine. But a poor throw is still a poor throw.</P>


Agood throw makes a huge difference in the outcome of the play. The difference between hitting just the hands (requiring mid stride adjustment) and putting the ball between numbers is huge.</P>


A good QB makes those accurate throws and really, it's one of the things that separates the good from the not so good. Eli has done it this year where as in years past, he has not. Eli's yard per attempt has sky rocketed as has his passer rating. Passer rating essentially rewards efficiency. Eli has been efficient this year.</P>


</P>


</P>


The notion that Eli is an inaccurate passer is way off base. As I said his problem last season seemed to be to get too jacked up early in games and make some high (tippable) throws.</P>


But I think Eli makes some of the nicest passes in the league, especially to the deep sidelines.</P>


My problem has been his decision making. Its that aspect that has been a huge improvement this year.</P>


</P>


I don't think you can say that it's even remotely way off base. If it was, there wouldn't be a lot of people and media saying so. If there is a overwhelming perception, there's a reason. Whether or not you agree with it is another thing all together. </P>


His decision making is better. But from what I see, his accuracy is a million times better. We don't see a lot of the pirouettes from our WRs anymore. When our WRs are open down the field, Eli hits them in stride. It really is night and day. My biggest issue with Eli isn't his ability to hit the difficult throw - especially on the sidelines. We all know he has the talent. It's the really, really easy ones when the WR is running 4-5 steps away from the defender. Eli in the past was either missing those or making it more difficult then need be.</P>


I'm not sure I'd consider what "a lot of people and media are saying" as even the most remote barometer of anything intelligent or well researched. In fact, I'm sure I would not. A lot of people are stupid. And misinformed. And they believe what they hear and read from so called experts in the media. Then it's just a feedback loop of idiocy. I think when we allow an uneducated majority to be regarded as an unbiased arbiter we end up with moronic proclamations like: - the pro bowl is an indication that one player is clearly better than others at his position or, more ridiculous: - the NFL Top 100 players is indicative of the actual quality of talent in the league I think we are all best left to judge things with our own eyes.</P>


No doubt. But when other people are telling you you're crazy for thinking a certain way, the fact that there are plenty others with the same perception, makes you ... not crazy. Or, just as dumb as everyone else. In which case, the chances of the "everyone else is dumb but me" person being Albert Einstein is pretty slim.</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:00 PM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

Especially when you take into account how bad some of our biggest contenders' defenses are...Packers and Patriots have two of the worst defenses in the league (when it comes to yards and TDs allowed) but their amazing QBs make up for it. If our defense can stop them, we have a chance of going all the way.


what the hell happeend to GB's defense this year?

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:03 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...</P>


If he continues to command the pocket like this year, it won't be forgotten by me.</P>

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:05 PM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

Especially when you take into account how bad some of our biggest contenders' defenses are...Packers and Patriots have two of the worst defenses in the league (when it comes to yards and TDs allowed) but their amazing QBs make up for it. If our defense can stop them, we have a chance of going all the way.


what the hell happeend to GB's defense this year?
</P>


What happened to them. I'll tell you Matt. They reached into my pocket and took a crapload of money and a would be Giants message board FF championship.</P>


Thats what friggin happened!!</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:06 PM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

Especially when you take into account how bad some of our biggest contenders' defenses are...Packers and Patriots have two of the worst defenses in the league (when it comes to yards and TDs allowed) but their amazing QBs make up for it. If our defense can stop them, we have a chance of going all the way.


what the hell happeend to GB's defense this year?
</p>


What happened to them. I'll tell you Matt. They reached into my pocket and took a crapload of money and a would be Giants message board FF championship.</p>


Thats what friggin happened!!</p>

you got RUDE DOGGED

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:08 PM
and on a side note - how bout them Texans defense

;)

Roosevelt
01-03-2012, 03:09 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 03:13 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol.* No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year.* He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
and on a side note - how bout them Texans defense

;)
</P>


Weren't they the defense for a team that got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs?</P>


FEAR THE UNDERDOG will be back next year. I'm already doing advanced scouting for next years draft.</P>

Sarcasman
01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol.* No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year.* He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.


I'm not familiar with a proverb about a memory toilet bowl.

Perhaps I need a new bible.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:16 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.
i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different. i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.</P>


He played well in 08 and for the first 5 games of 09. then he ran into MMB at a Ruths Chris steak house and Matt hexed him. Its taken two years for that hex to wear off.</P>


Thats how evil Matt is!!.......2 years!!!!!</P>

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:19 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


why? Because he threw 20 INTs?

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:21 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.
i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different. i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.</p>


He played well in 08 and for the first 5 games of 09. then he ran into MMB at a Ruths Chris steak house and Matt hexed him. Its taken two years for that hex to wear off.</p>


Thats how evil Matt is!!.......2 years!!!!!</p>

It was Blondie. She also caused the Phillies to lose to the Yankees in the WOrld series once we went to game 2 after they were up 1-0

Plus since living together my bank account has been hexed as well. She is officially the hexer

MattMeyerBud
01-03-2012, 03:21 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.


I'm not familiar with a proverb about a memory toilet bowl.

Perhaps I need a new bible.

09? I thought eli had a great year in 09

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:24 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.
i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different. i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.</P>


He played well in 08 and for the first 5 games of 09. then he ran into MMB at a Ruths Chris steak house and Matt hexed him. Its taken two years for that hex to wear off.</P>


Thats how evil Matt is!!.......2 years!!!!!</P>




It was Blondie. She also caused the Phillies to lose to the Yankees in the WOrld series once we went to game 2 after they were up 1-0

Plus since living together my bank account has been hexed as well. She is officially the hexer
</P>


No..thats just justice for you're ****ing with Eli.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 03:27 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol.* No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year.* He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.


I'm not familiar with a proverb about a memory toilet bowl.

Perhaps I need a new bible.

damn, my attempt at literary wit failed. i guess metaphorical works much better.

and MMB, no I am saying that Eli had great years in 08 and 09, but that a lot of people kind of forgot about it bc in 08 the whole plex thing took precedent in discussing the giants, and in 09 the same thing happened with Sheridan and our defense.

I dont know if Eli gets enough credit for those two years. imo, he really played at an extremely high level.

edit-those two years are the basis for when I say that the way eli is playing now isnt this new, unfounded guy who appeared out of nowhere.
granted he didnt have the yards as this year, but the run game was very strong in 08, in 09 with the loss of plex's threat to opposing defenses not being able to load the box, the run game started its decline to what we see now.

Morehead State
01-03-2012, 03:29 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.
i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different. i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year. I'm not familiar with a proverb about a memory toilet bowl. Perhaps I need a new bible.

09? I thought eli had a great year in 09
</P>


Pre hex 5 games 2 int's 5-0 team record</P>


Post hex 11 games 12 int's 3-8 team record</P>


My work is done.</P>

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 03:31 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol.* No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year.* He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.
i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different. i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year. I'm not familiar with a proverb about a memory toilet bowl. Perhaps I need a new bible.

09? I thought eli had a great year in 09
</P>


Pre hex*** 5 games**** 2 int's***** 5-0 team record</P>


Post hex* 11 games*** 12 int's*** 3-8 team record</P>


My work is done.</P>

u kind of just proved my point. eli's play was still very VERY good those final 11 games. the defense couldnt stop ANYONE. and thus, elis play is somewhat forgotten.

RobCarpenter
01-03-2012, 06:57 PM
Bottom line is every year that Eli Manning has been in the NFL he has improved as QB. His numbers get better over his career and even in seasons where certain stats have remained steady the eyeball test still reports ncremental improvement. The problem is the 6 degrees that separate Eli's play from season to season have now finally gotten to the point where Eli is now being universally recognized as an elite player creating a quandry for his naysayers as it requires some sack to admit that you've beern blindly blowing smoke for 7 whole years. I've stated numerous times this season and its been repeated by other posters that Eli's stats are just slightly better this year then they were last year. His yards are up quite a bit. His TDs are right where they were and his INTs are down from last year but right in line with what he's done throughout his career. How do you reconcile that? How can Eli's numbers be so close to his numbers from previous years but suddenly you give him credit and claim he's play SOOOOO much better this season? I'll tell you how. You'll use nondescript non-specific terms like "DECISION MAKING".</P>


I think you nailed it right there.</P>

Skittish_Eli
01-03-2012, 08:06 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...</p>


If he continues to command the pocket like this year, it won't be forgotten by me.</p>

I'll forget it and say old Eli is back. His career int's are far from elite.

Sarcasman
01-03-2012, 08:37 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...</p>


If he continues to command the pocket like this year, it won't be forgotten by me.</p>

I'll forget it and say old Eli is back. His career int's are far from elite.



He's a regular Bret Favre.

Roosevelt
01-03-2012, 08:48 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.

Plax killed us in '08 but Eli lost a bit of luster with the Eagle game.

In 2009 he played very well except for a stretch of games that I believe he had injured his foot. But ratings-wise that was his best season surprisingly to me. I thought his best year ratings-wise had to be this year but it turns out it's virtually the same as in '09.

Last was a mix of great numbers and a mistake ridden season. Not his best by far.

No matter what happens I would rate his seasons:

1. 2011
2. 2007
3. 2009
4/5. '08 or '10

Roosevelt
01-03-2012, 08:57 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol. No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year. He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


why? Because he threw 20 INTs?



I was kidding. But I personally could care less if he throws 20 INT's if we win. I'm pretty sure Simms through 21 in 1986 with only 20 TD's. I don't hear anyone talking about that unless they are trying to make a case for Eli.

IMO individual stats are nice but we have to look at more then just that. Bottom line is is the QB a winner? I think Eli has proven himself this year to be a winner.

Now to be considered elite, he has to keep it going which I believe he will do. I don't see him regressing until father-time catches up with him.

lnp12
01-03-2012, 09:44 PM
His play just shows us why his last name is Manning. Cruz is a great receiver. Makes me wonder how much talent slips between the cracks to not be noticed. If defense can play like they did last night, the Giants can win out.

Especially when you take into account how bad some of our biggest contenders' defenses are...Packers and Patriots have two of the worst defenses in the league (when it comes to yards and TDs allowed) but their amazing QBs make up for it. If our defense can stop them, we have a chance of going all the way.


what the hell happeend to GB's defense this year?


I'm personally more shocked by the Pats...down by 21 in the first half? That's crazy..what's more crazy is that they always come back!

giantsfan420
01-03-2012, 10:27 PM
as history has proven, if eli has a 20 int year next year, this year will be all but forgotten...

lol.* No way, but he certainly wont be considered elite!

In all seriousness, Eli didn't get the SB MVP credit because he played well for a limited amount of games that year.* He had an unbelievable finish to the game, but taking nothing away from him, he didn't exactly play very well throughout the game.

And of course our defense was incredible shutting down Romo, Favre and Tom Brady.


i agree with that aspect being valid but i see it slightly different.

i do think that his play in 08 and 09 went down the proverbial memory toilet bowl bc of the plex incident, the defensive collapse under sherridan, and then the 25 int year.

Plax killed us in '08 but Eli lost a bit of luster with the Eagle game.

In 2009 he played very well except for a stretch of games that I believe he had injured his foot.* But ratings-wise that was his best season surprisingly to me.* I thought his best year ratings-wise had to be this year but it turns out it's virtually the same as in '09.

Last was a mix of great numbers and a mistake ridden season.* Not his best by far.

No matter what happens I would rate his seasons:

1.* 2011
2.* 2007
3.* 2009
4/5.* '08 or '10


i'd agree with that and pretty much everything else you've said the past thread. the 08 year is tough bc we had such a great running game that he wsant asked to do much.

remember we went 11-1 and had a very difficult schedule with the ravens and steelers etc. jacobs also hurt his knee vs the ravens and there was some growing pains getting bradshaw up to speed.

i think mine would actually be
2011
2009
2008
2007
2010

the reason 2007 isnt higher on my list is bc during the regular season eli was actually kind of mediocre, good to great games followed by horrendous games. that playoff streak was amazing tho, so its difficult to rank that one year.