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View Full Version : The MVP Either Brees or Rodgers! hahahah***



DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 04:06 AM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 04:29 AM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played.

That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 04:45 AM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played.

That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?Personally I feel it should be till the SB is over.

I feel Eli should had a strong consideration based on many issues.

Here are some reasons.

1) Manning lost a RG and Center to injuries, then his LT. So the line was bad for Elis pass protection.

2) Everyone said manning couldn't do it once we lost Smith and Boss. Then we Didn't have Hixon passed maybe 3rd week? Then Barden out till week 7. And do not forget we were missing Mario for many games.

Who was Cruz, Ballard, Hynoski before the season? Ah unrestricted free agents. No one till Eli helped them along the way.

3) We also have/had no running game.

4) Did you miss the defense we have no had all year?

5) Elis league leading 4th quarter comeback in the regular season.

6) Since we like records then how about Elis 15th history making 4th quarter TDs that puts him in 1st in NFL history ahead of only his brother and Unitas.

7) And he has also thrown for the 5th highest yards thrown in nfl history by a qb and his best year.

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 04:56 AM
Here are some reasons.

1) Manning lost a RG and Center to injuries, then his LT. So the line was bad for Elis pass protection.

2) Everyone said manning couldn't do it once we lost Smith and Boss. Then we Didn't have Hixon passed maybe 3rd week? Then Barden out till week 7. And do not forget we were missing Mario for many games.

Who was Cruz, Ballard, Hynoski before the season? Ah unrestricted free agents. No one till Eli helped them along the way.

3) We also have/had no running game.

4) Did you miss the defense we have no had all year?

5) Elis league leading 4th quarter comeback in the regular season.

6) Since we like records then how about Elis 15th history making 4th quarter TDs that puts him in 1st in NFL history ahead of only his brother and Unitas.

7) And he has also thrown for the 5th highest yards thrown in nfl history by a qb and his best year.

Green Bay lost it's RT for a couple weeks in week 2 and again for the last 3 weeks of the season, it's LT in week 3 for the rest of the season until today, and it's RG for a couple weeks just before thanksgiving. So the OL issues are a push IMO.

Green Bay has had no running game and no defense all season long either. This has been firmly established by every fan of every team in America. Eli wins no points over Rodgers for these reasons at all.

Aaron Rodgers did not have a shot at a 4th quarter comeback at all this season save the KC game. Green Bay never trailed in the 4th quarter all season long outside of that game.

Eli threw for the 5th highest season yardage total in NFL history in his best year. But he loses that argument to Brees who threw for the very highest yardage total in NFL history - with one game to spare.

Eli had a great regular season, but in the year of the QB, his was not the greatest. It's not an insult that Eli isn't going to win the award this year. The Giants are still fortunate to have him. 28 other teams in the NFL wish they had a guy like him at QB this season. But the Packers, Saints and Patriots are not among them.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 05:06 AM
Here are some reasons.

1) Manning lost a RG and Center to injuries, then his LT. So the line was bad for Elis pass protection.

2) Everyone said manning couldn't do it once we lost Smith and Boss. Then we Didn't have Hixon passed maybe 3rd week? Then Barden out till week 7. And do not forget we were missing Mario for many games.

Who was Cruz, Ballard, Hynoski before the season? Ah unrestricted free agents. No one till Eli helped them along the way.

3) We also have/had no running game.

4) Did you miss the defense we have no had all year?

5) Elis league leading 4th quarter comeback in the regular season.

6) Since we like records then how about Elis 15th history making 4th quarter TDs that puts him in 1st in NFL history ahead of only his brother and Unitas.

7) And he has also thrown for the 5th highest yards thrown in nfl history by a qb and his best year.

Green Bay lost it's RT for a couple weeks in week 2 and again for the last 3 weeks of the season, it's LT in week 3 for the rest of the season until today, and it's RG for a couple weeks just before thanksgiving. So the OL issues are a push IMO.

Green Bay has had no running game and no defense all season long either. This has been firmly established by every fan of every team in America. Eli wins no points over Rodgers for these reasons at all.

Aaron Rodgers did not have a shot at a 4th quarter comeback at all this season save the KC game. Green Bay never trailed in the 4th quarter all season long outside of that game.

Eli threw for the 5th highest season yardage total in NFL history in his best year. But he loses that argument to Brees who threw for the very highest yardage total in NFL history - with one game to spare.

Eli had a great regular season, but in the year of the QB, his was not the greatest. It's not an insult that Eli isn't going to win the award this year. The Giants are still fortunate to have him. 28 other teams in the NFL wish they had a guy like him at QB this season. But the Packers, Saints and Patriots are not among them.All based on your perception.

I would agree that those fans and teams are happy with their qbs including the colts if manning comes back happy.

Yet most NYG fans and all NYG players and coaches wouldn't change their QB either.

Btw how did those above mentioned qbs do when they were down?

Your run game was actually better then ours this year thats how bad it was. Also the line we lost for a year not missed time.

We also had the toughest 9 games left in the season. SOS (strength of schedule)

But you also cannot make an argument for one guy like rodgers, then bring in brees to make an argument for another spot.

Also you never mentioned our WR/TE situation. Unlike Rodgers, Brees and Brady, they had those spots set, while Eli and the Giants only had Nicks, and Mario (when he wasn't injured for a good part of the season).

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 05:20 AM
But you also cannot make an argument for one guy like rodgers, then bring in brees to make an argument for another spot.


Why not? I could make an argument for Mark Sanchez if I thought there was a credible argument to make for him (there isn't, of course). The MVP award is competed for by all who are eligible, not just Eli vs Rodgers. Rodgers beats Eli in some areas, Brees in others. The point I was trying to get at was that Eli, while having an outstanding regular season, did not have the best one.

I wouldn't expect NYG fans and coaches to look for a change at QB. If they were, like I said, 28 other teams would be offering multiple day 1 picks for him. He's an elite QB. They'd be crazy to look in another direction at QB right now. But just because he's what works best for the Giants doesn't mean he's top dog in the entire NFL. This weekends losses not withstanding - again, the votes were cast weeks ago - the only real argument for MVP is between Brees and Rodgers. I think that's a given in most parts of the country.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 05:29 AM
But you also cannot make an argument for one guy like rodgers, then bring in brees to make an argument for another spot.


Why not? I could make an argument for Mark Sanchez if I thought there was a credible argument to make for him (there isn't, of course). The MVP award is competed for by all who are eligible, not just Eli vs Rodgers. Rodgers beats Eli in some areas, Brees in others. The point I was trying to get at was that Eli, while having an outstanding regular season, did not have the best one.

I wouldn't expect NYG fans and coaches to look for a change at QB. If they were, like I said, 28 other teams would be offering multiple day 1 picks for him. He's an elite QB. They'd be crazy to look in another direction at QB right now. But just because he's what works best for the Giants doesn't mean he's top dog in the entire NFL. This weekends losses not withstanding - again, the votes were cast weeks ago - the only real argument for MVP is between Brees and Rodgers. I think that's a given in most parts of the country.It is a given right or wrong. Problem is as I say, Perception becomes reality.

You can make an argument for the top 5 qbs this year.

Eli
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Stafford

Yet most just go with what many others hold as truth.

If Rodgers, or Brees win, I won't be devastated they have a legit right for that, yet I feel (if you want to believe its based on my fandom, then so be it) that Eli should have had a serious consideration.

Example:
Brees - Got Marinos passing yards

Rodgers - Best QB rating (which i feel is the biggest BS stat) and completion percentage, and most important of it all is the TDS to INTS ratio. I feel he should win over Brees if those were the only two options.

Eli - As mentioned his 15 fourth quarter tds. As Rodgers TD to INT ratio is big, I feel this stat is bigger then Brees Yards (especially this new arial NFL), but I could be wrong.

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 05:44 AM
Eli - As mentioned his 15 fourth quarter tds. As Rodgers TD to INT ratio is big, I feel this stat is bigger then Brees Yards (especially this new arial NFL), but I could be wrong.

I realize Eli has little control over this himself, but if those 4th quarter TD's translated into more than 9 wins on the season I think he would have had stronger consideration. Less stock is put into a stat like this one when your team only wins 9 games. Not that's necessarily fair or right, but, it is what it is.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 05:51 AM
Eli - As mentioned his 15 fourth quarter tds. As Rodgers TD to INT ratio is big, I feel this stat is bigger then Brees Yards (especially this new arial NFL), but I could be wrong.

I realize Eli has little control over this himself, but if those 4th quarter TD's translated into more than 9 wins on the season I think he would have had stronger consideration. Less stock is put into a stat like this one when your team only wins 9 games. Not that's necessarily fair or right, but, it is what it is.Without him, we could have been with possibly 0 wins. That was the point. Based on all mentioned previously.

GCGiant
01-16-2012, 06:32 AM
I think Eli is content to still have a shot at the MVP award that really means something. I wonder how Brees or Rodgers would answer if you asked them if they'd be willing to trade their shot at regular season MVP to be in Eli's position.

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 06:34 AM
Without him, we could have been with possibly 0 wins. That was the point. Based on all mentioned previously.


Careful now DragonSoul. You warned of the dangers of letting perception become reality, but that's exactly what you're doing here.

By this logic - going off of what could have been rather than what is - don't you think Eli's brother should be the forerunner for the award? I mean, by judging what could have been, Peyton is the difference between competing for a SB ring and picking first in April's draft. In a team sport like football, there couldn't be anybody more valuable. Wouldn't you agree?

Reality is reality. And reality is all of Eli's 4th quarter TD passes resulted in 9 wins and a week 17 NFC East Championship Game with Dallas while Rodgers' record setting season led to 15 wins and the top seed in the bracket having clinched the North on Thanksgiving. That's not perception, that's what happened. Which sounds more valuable to you?

Gunakor
01-16-2012, 06:37 AM
I think Eli is content to still have a shot at the MVP award that really means something. I wonder how Brees or Rodgers would answer if you asked them if they'd be willing to trade their shot at regular season MVP to be in Eli's position.

In a half a heartbeat. No question.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 03:43 PM
Without him, we could have been with possibly 0 wins. That was the point. Based on all mentioned previously.


Careful now DragonSoul. You warned of the dangers of letting perception become reality, but that's exactly what you're doing here.

By this logic - going off of what could have been rather than what is - don't you think Eli's brother should be the forerunner for the award? I mean, by judging what could have been, Peyton is the difference between competing for a SB ring and picking first in April's draft. In a team sport like football, there couldn't be anybody more valuable. Wouldn't you agree?

Reality is reality. And reality is all of Eli's 4th quarter TD passes resulted in 9 wins and a week 17 NFC East Championship Game with Dallas while Rodgers' record setting season led to 15 wins and the top seed in the bracket having clinched the North on Thanksgiving. That's not perception, that's what happened. Which sounds more valuable to you?I wouldn't have an issue with Peyton winning.

Again you are looking at the 9-7 record, but missing the rest. The record doesn't matter as you saw what happened to 18-1 and what 15-2 look like.

Its about how did you get into the playoffs. Did you fight all odds to get there? You are just looking at the record and are missing everything else surrounding it.

Again would you to date rather be 9-7 going into NFCCG or go 15-1 then done?

Voldamort
01-16-2012, 03:46 PM
Right on the money

NoHuddle10
01-16-2012, 04:02 PM
15 fourth quarter touchdowns is pretty incredible. If he threw 15 tds every quarter this season he would have thrown 60 TDs this year (crushing every single season TD record of all time).



4th quarter TDs are the most important IMO. They are also the most difficult to obtain IMO.

jhamburg
01-16-2012, 04:05 PM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played.

That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?

No, but I think Rodgers' case is shaky too, with Matt Flynn putting up 500 yards or whatever.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 05:39 PM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played.

That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?

No, but I think Rodgers' case is shaky too, with Matt Flynn putting up 500 yards or whatever.And how he played from trying to get from behind for pretty much the 1st time all year.

Suejon10
01-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Ha is right. Brees? No way. I even live in the QUIETED who dat nation. ELIte's biggest fan in who dat country. Where dat. ELI for MVP. Hail yeah!!!!!!!,

Voldamort
01-16-2012, 05:53 PM
Simms did they same thing in '86 Montanna,Shreader and Elway all made the pro-bowl and Simms beat them! ELI has played like an MVP all year,the guy has ice in his veins!!!

qndarius3
01-16-2012, 05:58 PM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.

going on this theory, the MVP should be Peyton Manning. From 12+ wins every year to the #1 pick...

fansince69
01-16-2012, 06:12 PM
You know who really does not care if Eli wins MVP?ELI!! because all he cares about is winning and what he can contribute.....Even when he does play poorly or one of his teammates messes up....you will never hear him make excuse or blame anyone.....He is complete class in my book...

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 07:24 PM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.

going on this theory, the MVP should be Peyton Manning. From 12+ wins every year to the #1 pick...
1st read all the posts in the thread. Next it is based on PLAYING during the course of the year.

DragonSoul
01-16-2012, 07:27 PM
You know who really does not care if Eli wins MVP?ELI!! because all he cares about is winning and what he can contribute.....Even when he does play poorly or one of his teammates messes up....you will never hear him make excuse or blame anyone.....He is complete class in my book...
Do you know this is a GMB and the reason for it? Because I could have sworn it was for the fans of the team to talk, debate, and discuss the happenings of the team and its players.

Call me crazy but i think that is what we are attempting to do.

Unless you prefer to just come to the forums and look at blank screens for hours. Then be my guest!

FIFTY6G-MAN
01-16-2012, 07:32 PM
I think Eli is content to still have a shot at the MVP award that really means something. I wonder how Brees or Rodgers would answer if you asked them if they'd be willing to trade their shot at regular season MVP to be in Eli's position.AWESOME!!!!! MVP AWARD orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr SB MVP AWARD?????? Hmmmmmm, IDK!!!

jhamburg
01-17-2012, 01:59 AM
The worst part of MVP awards is the constant dissection of what exactly "most valuable" entails.

I wish they would just change it to "Best player in the league" and things would be so much easier.

JMFP2
01-17-2012, 02:08 AM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played. That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?</P>


If you take Rodgers off the Packers, no way is that a 15-1 team.</P>


Brees had a great year too, but he had the benefit of a running game, and only played 5 games outdoors.</P>


I'd votefor Rodgers without question.</P>

giantsfan420
01-17-2012, 02:09 AM
i honestly would put it in this order for mvp.

eli-he did more with less. thats all there is to it. there are plenty of stats and anecdotes, but the come from behind wins, the 4th quarter td passes, the schedule we faced that would leave others left for dead. i know eli didnt have the offensive stats brees or rodgers had. but i think being the most valuable is more than just stats.

how did rodgers look playing from behind? something eli has done, and won, all yr. how did brees look when he played outside a dome? turnover central.

now i think the flynn playing did rodgers in. bc i could also honestly say brees gets the nod, bc he did have an amazing year statistically. but again, how much is it the system and coaching? flynn proved in GB its the system, rodgers skill factors in big time, but flynn had a better day than rodgers did all year, against a lions team with a lot to play for surrounded by second stringers.

but for me, eli is the one constant we've had. it isnt like the losses were bc eli played poorly. he still killed it. its just no d and no run game, it doesnt add up the wins. eli has been doing his thing all year.

also, our running game had 17 tds from the 1 yd line. of those 17, 13 i believe came from passing plays. one more yard on 13 receptions, and eli has 42 td's. but he doesnt care for all that stat bs, he just wants to win.

thats another thing, we arent over here padding our stats up by two touchdowns in the 4th throwing it all over like NO and GB did.

i dont know, i know the statistical output will probably win it for brees or rodgers. but i think the MVP award SHOULD go to Eli, and OPoY should go to either Brees or Rodgers. thats just how i view it.

JJC7301
01-17-2012, 02:16 AM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.
You're 100% correct -- I think Eli is the MVP this year. GB and NO were already considered loaded with offensive talent, but Eli had to deal with a depreciated run game; shuffled O-line; and a new 3rd WR and TE while keeping the Giants moving forward in spite of themselves.

How come writers or talking heads are making this argument? Does the MVP have to come from a 14-2 or better team? Silly.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 02:19 AM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.
You're 100% correct -- I think Eli is the MVP this year. GB and NO were already considered loaded with offensive talent, but Eli had to deal with a depreciated run game; shuffled O-line; and a new 3rd WR and TE while keeping the Giants moving forward in spite of themselves.

How come writers or talking heads are making this argument? Does the MVP have to come from a 14-2 or better team? Silly.because they just recycle the headlines & do not seem to enjoy doing the research.

JJC7301
01-17-2012, 02:25 AM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played. That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?</P>


If you take Rodgers off the Packers, no way is that a 15-1 team.</P>


Brees had a great year too, but he had the benefit of a running game, and only played 5 games outdoors.</P>


I'd vote*for Rodgers without question.*</P>
Come to think of it, it's not even close -- MVP should be Eli and I'm not thinking like a homer. Rodgers and Brees are better QBs, but Eli is the only reason (along with his WRs) that they Giants were able to hang around until the finally got their stuff straightened out. All of those 4th quarter TDs and comebacks? C'mon -- not even close.

You could put the NO and GB backups in there and their teams probably would have been 9-7 at least. Nothing against Carr, but if he was in there we would have been 4 -12 at best.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 02:30 AM
I wouldn't have an issue with Peyton winning.

Again you are looking at the 9-7 record, but missing the rest. The record doesn't matter as you saw what happened to 18-1 and what 15-2 look like.

Its about how did you get into the playoffs. Did you fight all odds to get there? You are just looking at the record and are missing everything else surrounding it.

Again would you to date rather be 9-7 going into NFCCG or go 15-1 then done?

I would most certainly have a problem with Peyton winning. He didn't play this season. He's not eligible. You can't make any kind of a sound argument that the most valuable player of 2011 is a guy who didn't play a down. That's absolutely ludicrous.

The MVP award is about the regular season. It has absolutely nothing to do with the playoffs. Of course I'd rather be the 9-7 team headed to the NFCCG, but the votes are cast before the playoffs ever start. It doesn't matter that New York beat Green Bay. The fact that Green Bay beat New York during the regular season has more to do with the MVP award than the fact that New York won in the postseason does. Because playoffs don't count in the least as far as this award is concerned. You do understand that, right?

JJC7301
01-17-2012, 02:41 AM
I wouldn't have an issue with Peyton winning.

Again you are looking at the 9-7 record, but missing the rest. The record doesn't matter as you saw what happened to 18-1 and what 15-2 look like.

Its about how did you get into the playoffs. Did you fight all odds to get there? You are just looking at the record and are missing everything else surrounding it.

Again would you to date rather be 9-7 going into NFCCG or go 15-1 then done?

I would most certainly have a problem with Peyton winning. He didn't play this season. He's not eligible. You can't make any kind of a sound argument that the most valuable player of 2011 is a guy who didn't play a down. That's absolutely ludicrous.

The MVP award is about the regular season. It has absolutely nothing to do with the playoffs. Of course I'd rather be the 9-7 team headed to the NFCCG, but the votes are cast before the playoffs ever start. It doesn't matter that New York beat Green Bay. The fact that Green Bay beat New York during the regular season has more to do with the MVP award than the fact that New York won in the postseason does. Because playoffs don't count in the least as far as this award is concerned. You do understand that, right?
Personally, I'm only talking about the regular season and I still don't see why Rodgers or Brees should be MVP. Do you think that your teams would have been at least 9-7 and in playoff contention with their respective backups? I think it very possible. I don't see that with the Giants, however.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 02:44 AM
i know eli didnt have the offensive stats brees or rodgers had. but i think being the most valuable is more than just stats.

I can respect that opinion. But the fact is that stats is all it is. That's all it has been forever. Peyton, Brady, Favre, Barry Sanders, and on, and on, and on. Stats are what they vote on. Stats win this award. Agree with it or not, it is what it is.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 02:46 AM
I wouldn't have an issue with Peyton winning.

Again you are looking at the 9-7 record, but missing the rest. The record doesn't matter as you saw what happened to 18-1 and what 15-2 look like.

Its about how did you get into the playoffs. Did you fight all odds to get there? You are just looking at the record and are missing everything else surrounding it.

Again would you to date rather be 9-7 going into NFCCG or go 15-1 then done?

I would most certainly have a problem with Peyton winning. He didn't play this season. He's not eligible. You can't make any kind of a sound argument that the most valuable player of 2011 is a guy who didn't play a down. That's absolutely ludicrous.

The MVP award is about the regular season. It has absolutely nothing to do with the playoffs. Of course I'd rather be the 9-7 team headed to the NFCCG, but the votes are cast before the playoffs ever start. It doesn't matter that New York beat Green Bay. The fact that Green Bay beat New York during the regular season has more to do with the MVP award than the fact that New York won in the postseason does. Because playoffs don't count in the least as far as this award is concerned. You do understand that, right?1) First it is the players playing...Agreed..

2) you did not respond to how Eli dealt with 3 UFA as starters this year, a pro bowl wr, and Center. Then how the receivers became big time from no names. Or how we lost a TE.

Yet all said how Eli might struggle and didn't expect the Giants to be this potent. Remember most 40+ yard caught best in the league.

3) The playoffs do not count I agree. But they should. The biggest thing is how you perform in the playoffs not just the regular season. People are already starting to question this. How the playoffs should be taken into consideration.

So please feel free to respond to number 2, as you have seemed to pass that point. Ah forgot to mention that 1st time in history the Giants had two wrs w/1k yards, and maybe the entire nfl this year (may be mistaken there), and the UFA Cruz was a 4/5th wr that finished 3rd in yards, and towards the top 2 in TDS, most in tds over 70 yards, and he didn't start most of the year.

While the Saints, Pack and Pats had a well oil machine already established, and all were expecting that.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 02:47 AM
Do you think that your teams would have been at least 9-7 and in playoff contention with their respective backups? I think it very possible. I don't see that with the Giants, however.

You are probably right. With respect to the Packers, I'd almost guarantee that you're right. We wouldn't be a #1 seed, but we'd be there.

But that's entirely irrelevant. Voters don't take hypotheticals into account. The fact is that Rodgers is the GB QB, the Packers did go 15-1, Rodgers did set a few all time passing records. That's all they vote on. What is, not what might have been. Otherwise, as has been previously established in this thread, Peyton Manning would be the shoe in for MVP.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 02:51 AM
So please feel free to respond to number 2, as you have seemed to pass that point.

I pass that point because it carries no weight with MVP voters one way or another. Furthermore, I pass that point because everything you listed in point #2 happend to Aaron Rodgers last season when the Packers entered as a #6 seed with 15 players on IR, and Rodgers didn't even make the final cut last year. If it didnt' matter last season it won't this season. You are making up criteria for voters to vote on. That's not the way they vote. If they did this year, it would be the very first time the did it.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 02:53 AM
Besides, how could the playoffs count toward MVP voting when the votes must be turned in before the playoffs start?

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 02:56 AM
So please feel free to respond to number 2, as you have seemed to pass that point.

I pass that point because it carries no weight with MVP voters one way or another. Furthermore, I pass that point because everything you listed in point #2 happend to Aaron Rodgers last season when the Packers entered as a #6 seed with 15 players on IR, and Rodgers didn't even make the final cut last year. If it didnt' matter last season it won't this season. You are making up criteria for voters to vote on. That's not the way they vote. If they did this year, it would be the very first time the did it.Of course it matters. What are you talking about. You are nuts if you do not think that. How do they get yards, tds then? It makes a huge difference, as does the oline and the rest of the team.

You heard it all the time.

Brady did great w/o any big name wrs, he deserves it

or

Peyton, is unreal that his defense cannot help him and he has to literally score every time he gets the ball in his hand. Imagine how many more he could have won with a better defense.

Those are just two examples. So if you cannot see that, then just wow.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 03:09 AM
Of course it matters. What are you talking about. You are nuts if you do not think that. How do they get yards, tds then? It makes a huge difference, as does the oline and the rest of the team.

You heard it all the time.

Brady did great w/o any big name wrs, he deserves it

or

Peyton, is unreal that his defense cannot help him and he has to literally score every time he gets the ball in his hand. Imagine how many more he could have won with a better defense.

Those are just two examples. So if you cannot see that, then just wow.

Yes I can see that, but it's still irrelevant. The stats themselves are the only thing they vote on, not the means to acheiving them. Especially in a season like this one, where 2 different QB's set all time league records. Whether you're throwing to Jabbar Gaffney or Jerry Rice, 5500 yards is 5500 yards. Whether you have Travis Jervey or Barry Sanders lining up behind you, 122 QB rating is 122 QB rating. Whether it's the Cowboys OL from the 90's or the Bears OL from the last couple seasons, if you set records people will notice. The means don't matter to anybody other than the player himself. To the voters it makes no difference.

I get why you feel the way you do. You're a fan, and fans don't always agree with the way it's done. They often feel as though their guy is disrespected. Either Brees or Rodgers is going to win it this year, and regardless who does, there is going to be an entire fan base that feels like their guy was slighted. So I understand your feelings on this. I do. I'm just trying to offer up the perspective of the unbiased (hopefully) voter that objectively casts a vote for the best player in the league. They don't watch every play, they don't take every little detail into account like we fans do. They look at a few tapes maybe, look at a stat sheet, look at the final league table, then make a decision.

And prior to the playoffs commencement, it was leaked that Peter King and at least 19 other voters had already cast their vote for Aaron Rodgers. Assuming there will be a strong contingent of voters casting their vote for Brees, I don't think there will be very many left for Eli. Especially after Brady scoops up the leftovers.

Eli had a great season. I'm rooting for he and the Giants the rest of the way out, and I hope he wins the (IMO) superior MVP award in the one game that matters this year. And gets the car that goes along with it. But until the numbers themselves are tops in the league I don't think he'll be getting very many votes for NFL MVP. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

Gunakor
01-17-2012, 03:16 AM
You're 100% correct -- I think Eli is the MVP this year. GB and NO were already considered loaded with offensive talent, but Eli had to deal with a depreciated run game; shuffled O-line; and a new 3rd WR and TE while keeping the Giants moving forward in spite of themselves.

How come writers or talking heads are making this argument? Does the MVP have to come from a 14-2 or better team? Silly.

Then why didn't Aaron Rodgers win it last year after the way he had to will his team into the playoffs with 15 guys on IR? He wasn't even considered. Why? Because it doesn't matter. And believe me, nobody on this side of Lake Michigan thought Rodgers should have been MVP last year, even though by your logic he should have been. The numbers weren't there.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Of course it matters. What are you talking about. You are nuts if you do not think that. How do they get yards, tds then? It makes a huge difference, as does the oline and the rest of the team.

You heard it all the time.

Brady did great w/o any big name wrs, he deserves it

or

Peyton, is unreal that his defense cannot help him and he has to literally score every time he gets the ball in his hand. Imagine how many more he could have won with a better defense.

Those are just two examples. So if you cannot see that, then just wow.

Yes I can see that, but it's still irrelevant. The stats themselves are the only thing they vote on, not the means to acheiving them. Especially in a season like this one, where 2 different QB's set all time league records. Whether you're throwing to Jabbar Gaffney or Jerry Rice, 5500 yards is 5500 yards. Whether you have Travis Jervey or Barry Sanders lining up behind you, 122 QB rating is 122 QB rating. Whether it's the Cowboys OL from the 90's or the Bears OL from the last couple seasons, if you set records people will notice. The means don't matter to anybody other than the player himself. To the voters it makes no difference.

I get why you feel the way you do. You're a fan, and fans don't always agree with the way it's done. They often feel as though their guy is disrespected. Either Brees or Rodgers is going to win it this year, and regardless who does, there is going to be an entire fan base that feels like their guy was slighted. So I understand your feelings on this. I do. I'm just trying to offer up the perspective of the unbiased (hopefully) voter that objectively casts a vote for the best player in the league. They don't watch every play, they don't take every little detail into account like we fans do. They look at a few tapes maybe, look at a stat sheet, look at the final league table, then make a decision.

And prior to the playoffs commencement, it was leaked that Peter King and at least 19 other voters had already cast their vote for Aaron Rodgers. Assuming there will be a strong contingent of voters casting their vote for Brees, I don't think there will be very many left for Eli. Especially after Brady scoops up the leftovers.

Eli had a great season. I'm rooting for he and the Giants the rest of the way out, and I hope he wins the (IMO) superior MVP award in the one game that matters this year. And gets the car that goes along with it. But until the numbers themselves are tops in the league I don't think he'll be getting very many votes for NFL MVP. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.I disagree, as I mentioned the couple statements used as to way some of those guys won the MVP in years past. I remember hearing King saying things like that over the years, and he has/had a vote.

While I won't knock on Brees or Rodgers when they win since they offered something, Eli offered just as much. Brees had the passing yards, but Rodgers had the tds vs ints. Yet Eli had top tier stats, and the clutch factor that the others have not had.

burier
01-17-2012, 01:28 PM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.

Stat whoring?

My new favorite term

jhamburg
01-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Of course it matters. What are you talking about. You are nuts if you do not think that. How do they get yards, tds then? It makes a huge difference, as does the oline and the rest of the team.

You heard it all the time.

Brady did great w/o any big name wrs, he deserves it

or

Peyton, is unreal that his defense cannot help him and he has to literally score every time he gets the ball in his hand. Imagine how many more he could have won with a better defense.

Those are just two examples. So if you cannot see that, then just wow.

Yes I can see that, but it's still irrelevant. The stats themselves are the only thing they vote on, not the means to acheiving them. Especially in a season like this one, where 2 different QB's set all time league records. Whether you're throwing to Jabbar Gaffney or Jerry Rice, 5500 yards is 5500 yards. Whether you have Travis Jervey or Barry Sanders lining up behind you, 122 QB rating is 122 QB rating. Whether it's the Cowboys OL from the 90's or the Bears OL from the last couple seasons, if you set records people will notice. The means don't matter to anybody other than the player himself. To the voters it makes no difference.

I get why you feel the way you do. You're a fan, and fans don't always agree with the way it's done. They often feel as though their guy is disrespected. Either Brees or Rodgers is going to win it this year, and regardless who does, there is going to be an entire fan base that feels like their guy was slighted. So I understand your feelings on this. I do. I'm just trying to offer up the perspective of the unbiased (hopefully) voter that objectively casts a vote for the best player in the league. They don't watch every play, they don't take every little detail into account like we fans do. They look at a few tapes maybe, look at a stat sheet, look at the final league table, then make a decision.

And prior to the playoffs commencement, it was leaked that Peter King and at least 19 other voters had already cast their vote for Aaron Rodgers. Assuming there will be a strong contingent of voters casting their vote for Brees, I don't think there will be very many left for Eli. Especially after Brady scoops up the leftovers.

Eli had a great season. I'm rooting for he and the Giants the rest of the way out, and I hope he wins the (IMO) superior MVP award in the one game that matters this year. And gets the car that goes along with it. But until the numbers themselves are tops in the league I don't think he'll be getting very many votes for NFL MVP. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.I disagree, as I mentioned the couple statements used as to way some of those guys won the MVP in years past. I remember hearing King saying things like that over the years, and he has/had a vote.

While I won't knock on Brees or Rodgers when they win since they offered something, Eli offered just as much. Brees had the passing yards, but Rodgers had the tds vs ints. Yet Eli had top tier stats, and the clutch factor that the others have not had.

"clutch" was irrelevant in Rodgers case because they destroyed every team they played. I don't know if I like the logic that falling behind and catching up in the 4th quarter is more impressive than blowing teams out right from the start.

giantsforce
01-17-2012, 01:41 PM
One must remember that the MVP award is a regular season award. Nothing that happens in the postseason is taken into consideration. I mean, the votes would have been the same even if New Orleans and Green Bay had both won this weekend since the votes were cast before the games were even played.

That said - and I ask this objectively, not as a Packer fan - if you were to take each QB's postseason performance and results out of the equation entirely and focus specifically on the regular season performances of each, do you really think Eli has a stronger case for the award than the 2 QB's who had record setting seasons this year?Yes Eli does have a stronger record. Let me put it this way so you can understand it. Both Brees and Rodgers are "system" QB's They perform well because of the system that is in place. Once that system is disrupted, both Brees and Rodgers had a meltdown. Eli on the other hand is not a "system" QB and this is proven by the most important record of all: 15 4rth qrt TD's. Which means, when the chips are down, you can count on Eli to carry the team. I'd bet you that if Rodgers or Brees were behind the atrocious Giants O-line with not much running support, they would have not have the numbers that Eli has. Besides, Eli is playing with inexperienced WR's and not TE to speak of. You can imagine what Eli could have accomplished had he had receivers like Colston or Jennings. Or TE like Graham or an Oline that could provide constant protection.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 01:46 PM
Of course it matters. What are you talking about. You are nuts if you do not think that. How do they get yards, tds then? It makes a huge difference, as does the oline and the rest of the team.

You heard it all the time.

Brady did great w/o any big name wrs, he deserves it

or

Peyton, is unreal that his defense cannot help him and he has to literally score every time he gets the ball in his hand. Imagine how many more he could have won with a better defense.

Those are just two examples. So if you cannot see that, then just wow.

Yes I can see that, but it's still irrelevant. The stats themselves are the only thing they vote on, not the means to acheiving them. Especially in a season like this one, where 2 different QB's set all time league records. Whether you're throwing to Jabbar Gaffney or Jerry Rice, 5500 yards is 5500 yards. Whether you have Travis Jervey or Barry Sanders lining up behind you, 122 QB rating is 122 QB rating. Whether it's the Cowboys OL from the 90's or the Bears OL from the last couple seasons, if you set records people will notice. The means don't matter to anybody other than the player himself. To the voters it makes no difference.

I get why you feel the way you do. You're a fan, and fans don't always agree with the way it's done. They often feel as though their guy is disrespected. Either Brees or Rodgers is going to win it this year, and regardless who does, there is going to be an entire fan base that feels like their guy was slighted. So I understand your feelings on this. I do. I'm just trying to offer up the perspective of the unbiased (hopefully) voter that objectively casts a vote for the best player in the league. They don't watch every play, they don't take every little detail into account like we fans do. They look at a few tapes maybe, look at a stat sheet, look at the final league table, then make a decision.

And prior to the playoffs commencement, it was leaked that Peter King and at least 19 other voters had already cast their vote for Aaron Rodgers. Assuming there will be a strong contingent of voters casting their vote for Brees, I don't think there will be very many left for Eli. Especially after Brady scoops up the leftovers.

Eli had a great season. I'm rooting for he and the Giants the rest of the way out, and I hope he wins the (IMO) superior MVP award in the one game that matters this year. And gets the car that goes along with it. But until the numbers themselves are tops in the league I don't think he'll be getting very many votes for NFL MVP. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.I disagree, as I mentioned the couple statements used as to way some of those guys won the MVP in years past. I remember hearing King saying things like that over the years, and he has/had a vote.

While I won't knock on Brees or Rodgers when they win since they offered something, Eli offered just as much. Brees had the passing yards, but Rodgers had the tds vs ints. Yet Eli had top tier stats, and the clutch factor that the others have not had.

"clutch" was irrelevant in Rodgers case because they destroyed every team they played. I don't know if I like the logic that falling behind and catching up in the 4th quarter is more impressive than blowing teams out right from the start.Thats a fair point, but it is circumstantial. As I always say, you have too look at it in the big picture, once you look at all the minor aspects first.

I can easily break that down if interested.

miked1958
01-17-2012, 04:58 PM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it. Bottom line it should be Eli.</P>


Let them both fight it out for the MVP. I think Eli will be happy with another SB Ring. That will Give him 2 and Brees and Rodgers only have 1 each. </P>


they can take that MVP and put it where the sun dont shine cause the SB RING is Better. LOL</P>

Roosevelt
01-17-2012, 05:12 PM
It is most VALUABLE player. Not the best stat whoring even though there should have some weight in it.

Bottom line it should be Eli.

Eli certainly deserves serious consideration.

burier
01-17-2012, 05:19 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Roosevelt
01-17-2012, 05:24 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Yeah, like that's in the bag.

I think you are not giving David Carr the respect he deserves. He's not that bad a QB. No disrespect to Eli, but from what I've seen of him, I think we can win with him too. He's got a good arm and he can run. Sort of like a Simms/Hoss thing.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Yeah, like that's in the bag.

I think you are not giving David Carr the respect he deserves.* He's not that bad a QB.* No disrespect to Eli, but from what I've seen of him, I think we can win with him too.* He's got a good arm and he can run.* Sort of like a Simms/Hoss thing.
We can win some games with Carr, but he is still far from Eli and what Eli can and has done for this team.

Ralph Brown
01-17-2012, 05:27 PM

Ralph Brown
01-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats" Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP. someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers. meh let those guys fight it out. I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.</P>
<DIV class=ForumPostContentText id=_ctl0__ctl1_bcr__ctl0___PostRepeater__ctl6_Post ViewWrapper>


You stole my post!</P>


+100 for what you said</P>


MVP, in all sports now, is too stat dominated. I think the question about MVP should be that if that player did not have the season they had, would the TEAM still be where it ended up? In that regard, Eli is the MVP of the year.</P>


I blame it all on fantasy sports....it ruins everything when it comes to evaluating how "good" a player is.</P></DIV>

chasjay
01-17-2012, 05:32 PM
Eli was in the conversation until the 4-game losing streak. He fell out of the conversation after that. The fact that Philly was one of the 4 was probably the killer - the other 3 were SF, NO and GB. I'm not saying Eli bears the blame for those losses, but if we had pulled 2 or 3 of those games out of the fire, he'd still be legitimately in the discussion.

None of this means I don't agree with his being the most valuable to his team - just talking about what influences the voters - and I do agree that, in the recent past, Eli had to do a little more than some others to get the same recognition. I kind of think those days are over - hope so, anyway.

burier
01-17-2012, 05:35 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Yeah, like that's in the bag.

I think you are not giving David Carr the respect he deserves.* He's not that bad a QB.* No disrespect to Eli, but from what I've seen of him, I think we can win with him too.* He's got a good arm and he can run.* Sort of like a Simms/Hoss thing.


I think David Carr is a nice backup but the way we were running the ball, failing to pass protect and failing to play defense....I'm pretty sure Carr would suffer from Texans flashbacks pretty quickly and become ineffective.

With the team playing the way they are now I think Carr would be fine though.

Roosevelt
01-17-2012, 05:54 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Yeah, like that's in the bag.

I think you are not giving David Carr the respect he deserves. He's not that bad a QB. No disrespect to Eli, but from what I've seen of him, I think we can win with him too. He's got a good arm and he can run. Sort of like a Simms/Hoss thing.
We can win some games with Carr, but he is still far from Eli and what Eli can and has done for this team.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to take anything away from Eli. I'm just giving the entire team a little more credit.

QB's get too much praise and too much blame.

But no doubt Eli Manning is our MVP this year and possibly the league.

DragonSoul
01-17-2012, 06:48 PM
Seriously since when did Most Valuable Player start getting confused with "guy who puts up most stats"

Eli can't win the MVP when we've got record breaking seasons to take behind that little board and start swaping but Eli should be the MVP.

someone here pointed out Giants might not have one a game this season without Eli...I think the Packers and Saints would have been ok without Brees and Rogers.

meh let those guys fight it out.

I'm sure Eli will be satisfied with his second SB MVP.

Yeah, like that's in the bag.

I think you are not giving David Carr the respect he deserves.* He's not that bad a QB.* No disrespect to Eli, but from what I've seen of him, I think we can win with him too.* He's got a good arm and he can run.* Sort of like a Simms/Hoss thing.
We can win some games with Carr, but he is still far from Eli and what Eli can and has done for this team.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to take anything away from Eli.* I'm just giving the entire team a little more credit.

QB's get too much praise and too much blame.

But no doubt Eli Manning is our MVP this year and possibly the league.
what burier wrote above your post is pretty much what my feeling is.