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View Full Version : Eli Manning and the "Moving Goal Post" Fallacy



ErnieReese
01-18-2012, 09:35 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" =
A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence.

Compliments of the cheatingenius07

ErnieReese
01-18-2012, 09:40 AM
-cheatinggenius07, youtube, "Is Eli Manning An Elite Qb?

jhamburg
01-18-2012, 09:46 AM
The reality is, its the same as anything else. People don't want the truth, they want a narrative. The media gave us a great narrative, Peyton is the confident superstar, Eli is the awkward, timid little brother. Eli lives in his brother's shadow. People like that story so much, that they still cling to it if it isn't true anymore.

lnp12
01-18-2012, 10:05 AM
The reality is, its the same as anything else. People don't want the truth, they want a narrative. The media gave us a great narrative, Peyton is the confident superstar, Eli is the awkward, timid little brother. Eli lives in his brother's shadow. People like that story so much, that they still cling to it if it isn't true anymore.

I would say this, but I'm not sure this is the case this year. All this past week I've heard the question "Who do you pick, Peyton or Eli?" and a surprisingly large number of people said they would choose Eli. I think people are finally starting to realize that he is an elite QB, and they cant simply write him off anymore.

Morehead State
01-18-2012, 10:12 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>

GIANTSACK
01-18-2012, 10:14 AM
The reality is, its the same as anything else. People don't want the truth, they want a narrative. The media gave us a great narrative, Peyton is the confident superstar, Eli is the awkward, timid little brother. Eli lives in his brother's shadow. People like that story so much, that they still cling to it if it isn't true anymore.

I would say this, but I'm not sure this is the case this year. All this past week I've heard the question "Who do you pick, Peyton or Eli?" and a surprisingly large number of people said they would choose Eli. I think people are finally starting to realize that he is an elite QB, and they cant simply write him off anymore.







Im at the point where i dont care what people think or the fake fan say about him. Im more worried about life after eli now.. aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. dear god....

Im truly greatful eli chose NYG.. I seee all these team struggling to even fimd a decent one.. We have a great qb... us fan watch him more than the regular espn fools.

GameTime
01-18-2012, 10:15 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>


</P>


I love Eli and I think he is on ef the best QBs in the league. I dont think he is the best. I dont look at stats. I look at games. The only stat I may take into account is completion %.</P>


But thats cool with me......I hope he is the best this Sunday. I hope the Giants as a TEAM are the best this Sunday.</P>


One game at a time</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>

Morehead State
01-18-2012, 10:19 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>


</P>


I love Eli and I think he is on ef the best QBs in the league. I dont think he is the best. I dont look at stats. I look at games. The only stat I may take into account is completion %.</P>


But thats cool with me......I hope he is the best this Sunday. I hope the Giants as a TEAM are the best this Sunday.</P>


One game at a time</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>


The off season (or preferably, after his career) is a nice time to talk about such things. Right now I'm far more interested how he'll deal with Justin Smith and the 49er secondary.</P>

DragonSoul
01-18-2012, 10:20 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" =
A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence.

Compliments of the cheatingenius07Seemed that way to me. Nice point/post.

jhamburg
01-18-2012, 10:26 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>


</P>


*I love Eli and I think he is on ef the best QBs in the league. I dont think he is the best. I dont look at stats. I look at games. The only stat I may take into account is completion %.</P>


But thats cool with me......I hope he is the best this Sunday. I hope the Giants as a TEAM are the best* this Sunday.</P>


One game at a time</P>


*</P>


*</P>


*</P>

Completion % is a terrible stat, it just favors teams that run a lot of screens and slants and don't throw deep balls. There's no substitute for watching games, but yards/attempt is by far the best stat to judge QBs by.

chasjay
01-18-2012, 10:31 AM
Not saying you're point isn't valid, but I truly believe Eli is going to measure his success this Sunday by whether the Giants are the winners of the game or not. I'm good with that.

ebick
01-18-2012, 10:42 AM
It's almost like an artist. I think when the sun sets on Eli's career, and everyone looks back on it, there will be a lot of "wow.....really?"

Kruunch
01-18-2012, 10:45 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>

+1

Past throwing up really gaudy stats that's the way you define yourself as elite: win championships.

If Eli wins the superbowl this year, I think he's comfortably in that category ... but it will be based on gutsy play ... not because he looks pretty doing it.

DragonSoul
01-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Wow you guys are over the top.

While most make valid points. The point of this forum is to discuss, debate, and have a good time.

Otherwise we would be sitting here looking at blank screens. If you like that, knock yourself out.

Unless it is of course based on what you guys deem ok to talk about.

chasjay
01-18-2012, 10:58 AM
Wow you guys are over the top.

While most make valid points. The point of this forum is to discuss, debate, and have a good time.

Otherwise we would be sitting here looking at blank screens. If you like that, knock yourself out.

Unless it is of course based on what you guys deem ok to talk about.

No offense meant, DS. I'll go on record as saying that I think, up to this point in his career, Eli has had to do a little more to get equal recognition with a few other QB's. But I believe the goal posts have been planted firmly now. I hope that is the case.

OrangeGiant
01-18-2012, 11:02 AM
Oh, I thought the "Moving Goal Post" fallacy is the excuse Tynes uses when he misses a FG. Sorry, couldn't resist.

DragonSoul
01-18-2012, 11:04 AM
Wow you guys are over the top.

While most make valid points. The point of this forum is to discuss, debate, and have a good time.

Otherwise we would be sitting here looking at blank screens. If you like that, knock yourself out.

Unless it is of course based on what you guys deem ok to talk about.

No offense meant, DS. I'll go on record as saying that I think, up to this point in his career, Eli has had to do a little more to get equal recognition with a few other QB's. But I believe the goal posts have been planted firmly now. I hope that is the case.
None taken Chasjay. I just don't know why all of a sudden certain topics is are being knocked. That is the point of the forums, especially if it is not every other topic as it was when we had Fire TC, get rid of ELI, start Chase, Fire JR, EA as in the past, that many never *****ed about & that it was on every other thread.

lovetohatetheeagles
01-18-2012, 11:27 AM
Eli can shut everyone up over the next 3 1/2 weeks.

A win Sunday should be enough, since going to 2 Superbowls makes ANY quarterback elite, but you might be right that he needs to meet a higher standard, even if he wins on Sunday (which we will).

blueomaha
01-18-2012, 11:37 AM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>


</P>


*I love Eli and I think he is on ef the best QBs in the league. I dont think he is the best. I dont look at stats. I look at games. The only stat I may take into account is completion %.</P>


But thats cool with me......I hope he is the best this Sunday. I hope the Giants as a TEAM are the best* this Sunday.</P>


One game at a time</P>


*</P>


*</P>


*</P>


</P>


The off season (or preferably, after his career) is a nice time to talk about such things.* Right now I'm far more interested how he'll deal with Justin Smith and the 49er secondary.</P>can't help it this time, but i have to agree with you...Justin Smith is havoc with a mean streak...RBs will have to chip on him to help keep Eli clean....

burier
01-18-2012, 12:59 PM
Eli has faced the logical fallacy of "The Moving Goalpost" from everyone his whole career, he's always been good, and yes NOW he? is Elite, but he'll always face this controversy: "The Moving Goalpost" = A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Compliments of the cheatingenius07</P>


Who cares....Go win on Sunday.</P>


</P>


*I love Eli and I think he is on ef the best QBs in the league. I dont think he is the best. I dont look at stats. I look at games. The only stat I may take into account is completion %.</P>


But thats cool with me......I hope he is the best this Sunday. I hope the Giants as a TEAM are the best* this Sunday.</P>


One game at a time</P>


*</P>


*</P>


*</P>

Completion % is a terrible stat, it just favors teams that run a lot of screens and slants and don't throw deep balls. There's no substitute for watching games, but yards/attempt is by far the best stat to judge QBs by.

How can you say that Yards Per is a better stat that completion % when you just said Completion % favors west coast screen pass throwing teams?

Screen Passes boost a QBs YPA as do predominatly west coast offenses.

look at Eli this year. His YPA are up but he's had Victor Cruz running in 70+ and 90+ yard TDs this year. So that stat is equally deceptive.

Nothing against stats. But nothing beats the eyeball test.

NYGinIN
01-18-2012, 01:09 PM
The reality is, its the same as anything else. People don't want the truth, they want a narrative. The media gave us a great narrative, Peyton is the confident superstar, Eli is the awkward, timid little brother. Eli lives in his brother's shadow. People like that story so much, that they still cling to it if it isn't true anymore.

Bonjour, Jacques Derrida! la narrative is to be, deconstructed. It will, undo, itself.

stormblue
01-18-2012, 01:27 PM
The reality is, its the same as anything else. People don't want the truth, they want a narrative. The media gave us a great narrative, Peyton is the confident superstar, Eli is the awkward, timid little brother. Eli lives in his brother's shadow. People like that story so much, that they still cling to it if it isn't true anymore.

I would say this, but I'm not sure this is the case this year. All this past week I've heard the question "Who do you pick, Peyton or Eli?" and a surprisingly large number of people said they would choose Eli. I think people are finally starting to realize that he is an elite QB, and they cant simply write him off anymore.


i think a lot of people would prefer Eli to Peyton.
Peyton is another Marino......regular season/regular situation stat machine.

but playing from behind or during adversity or in the playoffs they tend to choke.

ELI is clutch....big rig heavy duty dump truck clutch.

ErnieReese
01-18-2012, 02:39 PM
lol. good one.

ErnieReese
01-18-2012, 02:40 PM
Oh, I thought the "Moving Goal Post" fallacy is the excuse Tynes uses when he misses a FG. Sorry, couldn't resist.

lol. good one.

MikeIsaGiant
01-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Yeah whatever, I don't care, still think he is one of the best, if not, THE BEST giants QB ever