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View Full Version : Did the Patriots really ever cheat?



bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Ravens Kicking Consultant Believes Patriots Scoreboard Error May Have Been Intentional



http://larrybrownsports.com/football/ravens-kicking-consultant-patriots-scoreboard-error-intentional/112608



Browns Say Patriots Were Shady (intercepted headset communication)



http://larrybrownsports.com/football/browns-say-patriots-were-shady/1043



Spygate of course which ranges from videotaping signals, audibles,
walkthrough practices (against the Rams before the Super Bowl)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controve rsy



Josh McDaniels getting busted for cheating and then gets rehired by Pats for this playoff run



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_McDaniels



Patriots were cheating against the Packers but nothing was done



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 01:11 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:14 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots

stormblue
01-26-2012, 01:18 PM
the ravens still had one timeout left.....
if they felt rushed they would have used it.

mr.hiroki
01-26-2012, 01:20 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL. And they have since the before the NFL started. And it's not confined to football. All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots
</P>


yeah, i'm kinda split on this one. sure all teams cheat/push the envelope to gain an edge yet New England seems to be known for being embarrisingly aggressive and blatant with thier rules breaking/bending. not that I have ever heard a resolution to the accusations that have been leveled against them........is it a hateful conspiracy or arethe cries of the 'cheated,' legitimate?</P>

TroyArcher
01-26-2012, 01:20 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

Roosevelt
01-26-2012, 01:23 PM
Years ago Wellington Mara used to take Polaroid pictures of the defensive formations from the Press Box; slip them in socks weighted with rocks, and lower them down by string to the sidelines.

But according to Gifford, the players never looked at them!

bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:24 PM
the ravens still had one timeout left.....
if they felt rushed they would have used it.

Harbaugh should have definitely used it but he was clueless of the situation. He knew the down but he didn't know Cundiff didn't know the down. I guess he didn't want to pull a Garrett and ice his own kicker. Anybody who watched the game knew there was mass confusion on the sideline and could see Cundiff SPRINTING to the field. Cundiff, Suggs and even Belichick admitted to noticing confusion among the Ravens sideline.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.

TroyArcher
01-26-2012, 01:28 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.
</P>


</P>


When he acted like he was hit by a ball when the replay showed he did not get hit. Lying or cheating call it what you want. </P>

bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:31 PM
Wow! So you compare acting like getting a HBP with that long list of cheating by the Patriots? Really?

TuckYou
01-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.</P>


Whhhaaa??? </P>


Must be a Mets fan</P>

TroyArcher
01-26-2012, 01:34 PM
Wow! So you compare acting like getting a HBP with that long list of cheating by the Patriots? Really?
</P>


</P>


Cheating is cheating. Either you are honest or you are not. Of course there are varying degrees and Jeter's act will not impact his legacy. </P>

gmen0820
01-26-2012, 01:34 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.This. Spygate was way overblown IMO.

TroyArcher
01-26-2012, 01:35 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.</P>


Whhhaaa??? </P>


Must be a Mets fan</P>


</P>


</P>


Yes, I hate to admit it. I was just making a point that everyone (even the God named Jeter) will cheat to win. It just matters how far you are willing to go. </P>

stormblue
01-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.
</P>


*</P>


When he acted like he was hit by a ball when the replay showed he did not get hit.* Lying or cheating call it what you want.* </P>

soccer-flopping is not cheating.
kickers,QB's,wide receivers and
any baseball player on a close shave.
it's called "gamesmanship" not " cheating"

TroyArcher
01-26-2012, 01:37 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.
</P>


</P>


When he acted like he was hit by a ball when the replay showed he did not get hit. Lying or cheating call it what you want. </P>


soccer-flopping is not cheating. kickers,QB's,wide receivers and any baseball player on a close shave. it's called "gamesmanship" not " cheating"</P>


</P>


Depends on your point of view. In Soccer and Ice Hockey you will get carded or penalized if the ref thinks you are flopping. </P>

bflo23
01-26-2012, 01:47 PM
Having a spy hide behind some seats and videotape a walkthrough practice before the Super Bowl is a coward move by the Patriots. Comparing outside technology cheating to a player who may "act" like from a HBP or a basketball charge is beyond ridiculous.

There is a right and wrong way to win. And I would never want to see the Giants win the super bowl like the way the Patriots did. A tainted championship doesn't mean anything. I would rather see the Giants lose with class than win by cheating and having their MVP be a camera man spy on the sideline.

stormblue
01-26-2012, 01:59 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.
</P>


*</P>


When he acted like he was hit by a ball when the replay showed he did not get hit.* Lying or cheating call it what you want.* </P>


soccer-flopping is not cheating. kickers,QB's,wide receivers and any baseball player on a close shave. it's called "gamesmanship" not " cheating"</P>


*</P>


Depends on your point of view.* In Soccer and Ice Hockey you will get carded or penalized if the ref thinks you are flopping.* </P>

lol.... yea.....but i'm a native new yorker,
stuck living in Tampa.
Yankee fan and Rays hater so i am honor -bound to call it "gamesmanship"
at least in Jeter's case anyway.

patsrule666
01-26-2012, 02:21 PM
Having a spy hide behind some seats and videotape a walkthrough practice before the Super Bowl is a coward move by the Patriots. Comparing outside technology cheating to a player who may "act" like from a HBP or a basketball charge is beyond ridiculous.

There is a right and wrong way to win. And I would never want to see the Giants win the super bowl like the way the Patriots did. A tainted championship doesn't mean anything. I would rather see the Giants lose with class than win by cheating and having their MVP be a camera man spy on the sideline.




Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, and Mike Ditka have all admitted to doing the same thing during thier coaching careers including the Super Bowl years.
Coaches have been stretching the boundries of the rules to gain a edge for years now. Steelers were the poster child for steriods during the 70's. 49ers manipulated the cap during the 80's. Parcells blew up at Steve Young when he was talking about Spygate a few years back. He went off on him about how the 49ers would shut off his headset for the first 10 minutes of the game, or something along those lines...I have alot of respect for the Giants organization and a good portion of thier fans...You and your blind hatred? Not so much!!! I expect this more from other fans from teams like the Jets...Not a classy franchise like the New York Football Giants...But hey, every team has thier good and bad i guess..

burier
01-26-2012, 02:23 PM
this is hilarious.

The Patriots are known cheaters. Some Giants fans have some sort of love affair/obsession/penis envy/ for the Patriots/Bill Belichick but the Patriots are cheaters.

They were fined and stripped of a draft choice for cheating and no it not comparible to "flopping"

As a matter a fact two examples of cheating Vs Gamesmanship.

And No every one does not cheat and this is another thing that has been fabricated to protect the Patriots image since everyone spent the first half of a decade slobbering all over their *explative*

JMGGIANTS
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
The Patriots have a history of controversy. Remember the snow game when the prison inmate on work release drove the tractor onto the field and cleared a spot for the field kicker?

MattMeyerBud
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
this is hilarious.

The Patriots are known cheaters. Some Giants fans have some sort of love affair/obsession/penis envy/ for the Patriots/Bill Belichick but the Patriots are cheaters.

They were fined and stripped of a draft choice for cheating and no it not comparible to "flopping"

As a matter a fact two examples of cheating Vs Gamesmanship.

And No every one does not cheat and this is another thing that has been fabricated to protect the Patriots image since everyone spent the first half of the decond slobbering all over their *explative*

they didn't cheat

they did the same **** that gets done...

its like when people say Giants cheat because we fake injuries. No, everybody does that ****

burier
01-26-2012, 02:25 PM
this is hilarious.

The Patriots are known cheaters. Some Giants fans have some sort of love affair/obsession/penis envy/ for the Patriots/Bill Belichick but the Patriots are cheaters.

They were fined and stripped of a draft choice for cheating and no it not comparible to "flopping"

As a matter a fact two examples of cheating Vs Gamesmanship.

And No every one does not cheat and this is another thing that has been fabricated to protect the Patriots image since everyone spent the first half of the decond slobbering all over their *explative*

they didn't cheat

they did the same **** that gets done...

its like when people say Giants cheat because we fake injuries. No, everybody does that ****


So if they didn't cheat why did the NFL strip a draft choice from them.

MattMeyerBud
01-26-2012, 02:25 PM
The Patriots have a history of controversy. Remember the snow game when the prison inmate on work release drove the tractor onto the field and cleared a spot for the field kicker?

We use to open to the old meadowlands if a team was going to kick a FG at that end

these type of things are the true form of home field advantage

MattMeyerBud
01-26-2012, 02:28 PM
this is hilarious.

The Patriots are known cheaters. Some Giants fans have some sort of love affair/obsession/penis envy/ for the Patriots/Bill Belichick but the Patriots are cheaters.

They were fined and stripped of a draft choice for cheating and no it not comparible to "flopping"

As a matter a fact two examples of cheating Vs Gamesmanship.

And No every one does not cheat and this is another thing that has been fabricated to protect the Patriots image since everyone spent the first half of the decond slobbering all over their *explative*

they didn't cheat

they did the same **** that gets done...

its like when people say Giants cheat because we fake injuries. No, everybody does that ****


So if they didn't cheat why did the NFL strip a draft choice from them.

cuz they got caught

notice they also burned the tapes and never released them

its ad ifferent time, this stuff has happened throughout the history of the NFL. Theres been too many admissions of how this was a common practice

Not for nothing, who cares too. Filming practice? Its a minimal difference maker. It still needs to be executed. In the world of audibles and things of that nature it makes no difference.

MattMeyerBud
01-26-2012, 02:29 PM
if u guys are asking in general, then no they dind't cheat

if ur breaking a pats fans balls - then yea - say they are the most corrupt organization ever lol

burier
01-26-2012, 02:29 PM
The Patriots have a history of controversy. Remember the snow game when the prison inmate on work release drove the tractor onto the field and cleared a spot for the field kicker?

We use to open* to the old meadowlands if a team was going to kick a FG at that end

these type of things are the true form of home field advantage



you're talking about something totally unrelated. Opening a door so theres a little more wind has nothing to do with infiltrating another teams practice facility and taking video of said teams signals etc.

Something that the NFL expressed was illegal.

MattMeyerBud
01-26-2012, 02:31 PM
The Patriots have a history of controversy. Remember the snow game when the prison inmate on work release drove the tractor onto the field and cleared a spot for the field kicker?

We use to open to the old meadowlands if a team was going to kick a FG at that end

these type of things are the true form of home field advantage



you're talking about something totally unrelated. Opening a door so theres a little more wind has nothing to do with infiltrating another teams practice facility and taking video of said teams signals etc.

Something that the NFL expressed was illegal.

opening the gates has more effect on the game than filming a practice

burier
01-26-2012, 02:35 PM
this is hilarious.

The Patriots are known cheaters. Some Giants fans have some sort of love affair/obsession/penis envy/ for the Patriots/Bill Belichick but the Patriots are cheaters.

They were fined and stripped of a draft choice for cheating and no it not comparible to "flopping"

As a matter a fact two examples of cheating Vs Gamesmanship.

And No every one does not cheat and this is another thing that has been fabricated to protect the Patriots image since everyone spent the first half of the decond slobbering all over their *explative*

they didn't cheat

they did the same **** that gets done...

its like when people say Giants cheat because we fake injuries. No, everybody does that ****


So if they didn't cheat why did the NFL strip a draft choice from them.

cuz they got caught

notice they also burned the tapes and never released them

its ad ifferent time, this stuff has happened throughout the history of the NFL. Theres been too many admissions of how this was a common practice

Not for nothing, who cares too. Filming practice? Its a minimal difference maker. It still needs to be executed. In the world of audibles and things of that nature it makes no difference.


This is one issue that fires me up. so I'm just gonna leave it alone on this note:

The fact that you "think" other people are doing something wrong makes it no less wrong. Trying to point to other people's behavior to justify your own shows lack of maturity and character.

Also the fact that you "think" that the rule isn't important enough or doesn't have a great impact when broken is so far beside the point I can't stand it.

When I was a child I had rules to follow. When I broke them I got a beating and if I told my parents "Well I didn't think following your rules was important" I would have gotten another beating. And if I said "But everyone was doing it" Id get yet another beating.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 02:36 PM
Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, and Mike Ditka have all admitted to doing the same thing during thier coaching careers including the Super Bowl years.
Coaches have been stretching the boundries of the rules to gain a edge for years now. Steelers were the poster child for steriods during the 70's. 49ers manipulated the cap during the 80's. Parcells blew up at Steve Young when he was talking about Spygate a few years back. He went off on him about how the 49ers would shut off his headset for the first 10 minutes of the game, or something along those lines...I have alot of respect for the Giants organization and a good portion of thier fans...You and your blind hatred? Not so much!!! I expect this more from other fans from teams like the Jets...Not a classy franchise like the New York Football Giants...But hey, every team has thier good and bad i guess..

Show me a link where Bill Parcells said he used a spy camera man to videotape signals and it won him the Super Bowls. Stop lying. You are in denial and want to use the "everybody else does it so why can't we cheat." excuse because it brings some sort of comfort for you...... I am glad that you have respect for the Giants because I don't have any respect for the Patriots and the long list of cheating that they have done for years that got them 3 tainted super bowls. I feel bad for Rams, Eagles and Panthers. I don't respect Brady rules and the billion tippy tap flags he receives when he cries to the ref like the Suggs glancing his thigh flag or the "Fletcher elbow to the head" terrible flag. I don't respect the Patriots, their 3 tainted championships, their cheating or the trolling fans that whine &amp; make excuses. Respect is earned and not just given.

Pakman
01-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How so? Steroids? No.... jeffrey maier? Ump call. Not Jeter.

Try again.
</P>


*</P>


When he acted like he was hit by a ball when the replay showed he did not get hit.* Lying or cheating call it what you want.* </P>

LOL!!!!!!

gumby742
01-26-2012, 02:40 PM
blown out of proportion imo.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 02:40 PM
cuz they got caught

notice they also burned the tapes and never released them

its ad ifferent time, this stuff has happened throughout the history of the NFL. Theres been too many admissions of how this was a common practice

Not for nothing, who cares too. Filming practice? Its a minimal difference maker. It still needs to be executed. In the world of audibles and things of that nature it makes no difference.


"It makes no difference"? Are you an NFL coach? How do you know? It obviously makes a difference because why would they being do it if it don't help. What is next? Brady knowing the defensive play doesn't give him any advantage? lol....cmon.

burier
01-26-2012, 02:40 PM
The Patriots have a history of controversy. Remember the snow game when the prison inmate on work release drove the tractor onto the field and cleared a spot for the field kicker?

We use to open* to the old meadowlands if a team was going to kick a FG at that end

these type of things are the true form of home field advantage



you're talking about something totally unrelated. Opening a door so theres a little more wind has nothing to do with infiltrating another teams practice facility and taking video of said teams signals etc.

Something that the NFL expressed was illegal.

opening the gates has more effect on the game than filming a practice


Says who???

Did you see the video the Pats took? They'd film a hand signal and then film the formation and the ultimate outcome of that signal on the field.

Meaning in the game they'd have a significat advantage in knowing the play before its run which is the main thing you're trying to keep the opponent from knowing.

All you hear about is balance/Disguise etc.

kickers are supposed to be able to kick in the wind. The Giants don't control the wind either. Now if you tell me the Giants had Jet fuled Fans turned on we can compare.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 02:41 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots


I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

burier
01-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, and Mike Ditka have all admitted to doing the same thing during thier coaching careers including the Super Bowl years.
Coaches have been stretching the boundries of the rules to gain a edge for years now. Steelers were the poster child for steriods during the 70's. 49ers manipulated the cap during the 80's. Parcells blew up at Steve Young when he was talking about Spygate a few years back. He went off on him about how the 49ers would shut off his headset for the first 10 minutes of the game, or something along those lines...I have alot of respect for the Giants organization and a good portion of thier fans...You and your blind hatred? Not so much!!! I expect this more from other fans from teams like the Jets...Not a classy franchise like the New York Football Giants...But hey, every team has thier good and bad i guess..

Show me a link where Bill Parcells said he used a spy camera man to videotape signals and it won him the Super Bowls. Stop lying. You are in denial and want to use the "everybody else does it so why can't we cheat." excuse because it brings some sort of comfort for you...... I am glad that you have respect for the Giants because I don't have any respect for the Patriots and the long list of cheating that they have done for years that got them 3 tainted super bowls. I feel bad for Rams, Eagles and Panthers. I don't respect Brady rules and the billion tippy tap flags he receives when he cries to the ref like the Suggs glancing his thigh flag or the "Fletcher elbow to the head" terrible flag. I don't respect the Patriots, their 3 tainted championships, their cheating or the trolling fans that whine & make excuses. Respect is earned and not just given.


Seriously. Link it up

burier
01-26-2012, 02:44 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots


I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

Objection! Relevance?????

patsrule666
01-26-2012, 02:44 PM
Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, and Mike Ditka have all admitted to doing the same thing during thier coaching careers including the Super Bowl years.
Coaches have been stretching the boundries of the rules to gain a edge for years now. Steelers were the poster child for steriods during the 70's. 49ers manipulated the cap during the 80's. Parcells blew up at Steve Young when he was talking about Spygate a few years back. He went off on him about how the 49ers would shut off his headset for the first 10 minutes of the game, or something along those lines...I have alot of respect for the Giants organization and a good portion of thier fans...You and your blind hatred? Not so much!!! I expect this more from other fans from teams like the Jets...Not a classy franchise like the New York Football Giants...But hey, every team has thier good and bad i guess..

Show me a link where Bill Parcells said he used a spy camera man to videotape signals and it won him the Super Bowls. Stop lying. You are in denial and want to use the "everybody else does it so why can't we cheat." excuse because it brings some sort of comfort for you...... I am glad that you have respect for the Giants because I don't have any respect for the Patriots and the long list of cheating that they have done for years that got them 3 tainted super bowls. I feel bad for Rams, Eagles and Panthers. I don't respect Brady rules and the billion tippy tap flags he receives when he cries to the ref like the Suggs glancing his thigh flag or the "Fletcher elbow to the head" terrible flag. I don't respect the Patriots, their 3 tainted championships, their cheating or the trolling fans that whine & make excuses. Respect is earned and not just given.
What, Google not your friend all of a sudden? Looks like someone could use a hug..

bflo23
01-26-2012, 02:45 PM
I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

What is the point? "head slap rule".... avoiding the topic. None of these compare to what the Patriots did and the mockery they made of themselves.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 02:47 PM
What, Google not your friend all of a sudden? Looks like someone could use a hug..

You are the one spewing the lies so I am sure you can find the post where Bill Parcells said he cheated and won the Super Bowl because of spies. Or are you just another excuse making lying Patriot troll? I will be waiting for your "sources". In what year was Parcells caught cheating?

YATittle1962
01-26-2012, 02:51 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots


I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

I would add the list that specifically pertains to Maddens Raiders.....but Im not sure we have enough bandwidth

stormblue
01-26-2012, 02:52 PM
they were stealing defensive hand signals.

that's every pitch of every baseball game ever played.

these signals would have to be interpreted, a countermeasure devised, and then called in to the QB's headset ; and then the QB would have to audible the new play at the line.....all of this before the play clock expired.

now this is no different than the QB looking at the defensive alignment and callimg an audible anyhow.
this signal stealing was useless technically.

the only reason the league acted on it is because it is technically a rule and only the Jets would make a stink about something that stupid. still feeling raped by the Parcells thing.

anyways it is WAAAYYY less significant than
door and wind manipulations.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 02:55 PM
*I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

What is the point? "head slap rule".... avoiding the topic. None of these compare to what the Patriots did and the mockery they made of themselves.


Seriously? What's the point?

I'd much rather my team be subjected to the opposing team filming my practices (btw this still happens and by many teams) than having my team subjected to throat-chops and eye gouging.

The POINT is that in the interest of competitive spirit, players/coaches/boosters/fans take it WAYYYY past the spirit of the game (yes, Bill Bellichick included). However to single out one team (especially the team you're about to face) is a bit disengenuous since there is a 99.9% chance that your team engages in some less than ethical behavior itself.

Like specifically targetting a previously concussed opponent.

Get off your high horse unless you're going to indict everyone (including your own team).

burier
01-26-2012, 02:57 PM
they were stealing defensive hand signals.

that's every pitch of every baseball game ever played.

these signals would have to be interpreted, a countermeasure devised, and then called in to the QB's headset ; and then the QB would have to audible the new play at the line.....all of this before the play clock expired.

now this is no different than the QB looking at the defensive alignment and callimg an audible anyhow.
this signal stealing was useless technically.

the only reason the league acted on it is because it is technically a rule and only the Jets would make a stink about something that stupid. still feeling raped by the Parcells thing.

anyways it is WAAAYYY less significant than
door and wind manipulations.


You must be joking...if it was useless then why bother doing it?

And then Josh McDaniels did the same thing AFTER The Pats got caught mocked and had a draft pick stricken.

He risked all of that because it doesn't provide an advantage????

Critical thinking.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 02:57 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better but it is just the Patriots who get caught constantly time and time again? 3 tainted Super Bowls for the Patriots


I've played and coached multiple sports (including football) from the junior level to the college level.

Cheating happens at all levels and to all degrees, from the "acceptable" practice of exploiting tells, to the more egregious forms of substance abuse, player abuse and peripheral tampering.

Regarding the NFL:

1) Coaches call plays from the sidelines behind their overly large play cards. This is done because back in the 80s teams would employ spotters who could lip read.

2) You are no longer allowed to stuff a ball inside of your jersey. This is due to this happening back in the leather-helmet days.

3) Security guards on the sidelines were originally installed to keep people from spiking the other team's water with hot sauce, causing cramping, back in the 40s.

4) Balls used during the game are now kept by an official and can only be wiped down by them. This was done to prevent teams' ball handlers from putting resin on the ball.

5) Defensive players aren't allowed to yell before the ball is snapped due to defenses trying to "fake" audible or disrupt audibles by shouting over them.

6) Players can't launch themselves off of other players due to players doing this to block field goals and helping launch running backs over the pile at the goal line / short yardage situations.

7) The NFL had to actually outlaw eye-gouging and throat-chops (comically, it took them until 1977 to do so).

Now for some specific club transgressions:

1) The Giants used to open both tunnels before an opposing team would attempt a kick/punt/field goal (part of the whole swirling wind mystique of the old stadium).

2) 49ers used to wet down their field prior to games. The excuse used was to help keep the dust down from playing in Candlestick park (where a baseball diamond used to run through the middle of the field) until it was pointed out that they only seemed to do this when facing an opponent with a prolific offense.

3) Lawrence Taylor (and several other players across the league) was investigated for being paid to knock players out of a game (specifically QBs).

4) The Seahawks used to pipe their crowd noise through their PA-system to amplify it. They did this only when the opposing team had the ball.

5) Various receivers have been admonished for using various forms of "stick-um" on their hands/gloves over the decades. This will probably include some of the baseball mitts with the rubber traction nibs you see them using today at some point in the future.

6) The head-slap rule against offensive linemen was put into place after Deacon Jones concussed some opposing players

7) There is a rule in the NFL governing the use of prosthetic limbs for disabled players specifically due to Tom Dempsey (the half footed kicker) wearing a steel plate on the end of his kicking shoe.

8) Receivers aren't allowed to be hit after 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is known as the "Mel Blount" rule. He used to kidney punch receivers in mid-route.

And on and on.

Now most would argue (and most who were caught did argue) that most of these aren't "cheating" because they weren't in the rules prior to the transgression happening. To that I would reply that hitting a player with a truck isn't currently against the rules in the NFL however I think we can all agree that it would be "cheating" if someone ran over an opposing QB in a Kenworth.

I would add the list that specifically pertains to Maddens Raiders.....but Im not sure we have enough bandwidth

Seriously.

There isn't a "punishing" defense in NFL history that wasn't also a dirty defense at some point.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 03:02 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."

burier
01-26-2012, 03:05 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


Some people in this thread are playing dumb.

gmen0820
01-26-2012, 03:12 PM
Objection! Relevance?????Overruled.

Continue counselor.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 03:12 PM
Some people in this thread are playing dumb.

"But everyone tapes defensive signals, audibles, walkthrough practices, intercept headset communications, etc."

"Knowing what defense your opponent has doesn't really help Brady"

It is beyond ridiculous. Do you know what is more ridiculous that that? The Patriot fans calling Mangini a RAT because he told the NFL that the Patriots were spying on the Jets. HE WORKS FOR THE JETS! Is he suppose to help the Patriots at that time?

If Coughlin caught the other team cheating, I would hope he says something and stops it. And if the Giants caught one of the Patriot spies during their walkthrough practice, I would hope the players would take that camera and shove it right up.... you know where.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 03:14 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady says "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick says "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady says "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 03:17 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 03:18 PM
Some people in this thread are playing dumb.

"But everyone tapes defensive signals, audibles, walkthrough practices, intercept headset communications, etc."

"Knowing what defense your opponent has doesn't really help Brady"

It is beyond ridiculous. Do you know what is more ridiculous that that? The Patriot fans calling Mangini a RAT because he told the NFL that the Patriots were spying on the Jets. HE WORKS FOR THE JETS! Is he suppose to help the Patriots at that time?

If Coughlin caught the other team cheating, I would hope he says something and stops it. And if the Giants caught one of the Patriot spies during their walkthrough practice, I would hope the players would take that camera and shove it right up.... you know where.


Funny that Mangini didn't say squat when he was employed by said cheating team as their DC WHEN THE CHEATING WAS HAPPENING!

Blind eye is blind.

stormblue
01-26-2012, 03:19 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


no.

my point is that nowadays you have people up in the booths photoing and videotaping everything from above and sending the photos to the sidelines and communicating live in headsets.

you would have to point out to me what immediate value or advantage some coaches hand signals on the sidelines would benefit anymore than what live cameras and field glasses and headset chatter do already.

i.m just sayin' in the big picture it's a very small
infraction.
and i don't mean penalty wise.....i mean usefulness.
a coaches hand signals ? except for calling timeout it would be too little too late

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 03:22 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

DragonSoul
01-26-2012, 03:28 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.I do not think thats the case. I do not recall this being taught in anyway. Maybe I am Naive, but if thats the truth then its a very sad stage of affairs.

stormblue
01-26-2012, 03:33 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 03:34 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.I do not think thats the case. I do not recall this being taught in anyway. Maybe I am Naive, but if thats the truth then its a very sad stage of affairs.

The first thing I was taught the first time I was asked to play OG was to grab the front of the opposing players' jersey and flare my elbows so the hold wasn't obvious.

Pretty much every offensive lineman will tell you that they have been taught something similar.

It's specifically cheating since you are intentionally committing a penalty AND trying to hide it.

But I'm not going to condemn a specific NFL team for employing the strategy ... it would be kind of silly wouldn't it?

But I can guarantee you that offensive holding has A LOT more effect on a given football game, than any video tape of any practice in history.

Shrug.

BillTheGreek
01-26-2012, 03:41 PM
All teams Cheat, the Patriots got caught and cost them a big fine, I don't remember how much ...it was , I am sure you can check it out......Also Remember the Black Sox scandal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal...

Oh yes....What about the Refs. ?

Heres your answer :
http://football.about.com/b/2007/09/11/patriots-caught-cheating.htm

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 03:49 PM
All teams Cheat, the Patriots got caught and cost them a big fine, I don't remember how much ...it was , I am sure you can check it out......Also Remember the Black Sox scandal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal...Oh yes....
What about are Refs. ?

The Black Sox is a whole different level of cheating.

If spygate is the j-walking of cheating then buying players to tank a game is the Murder 1 of cheating.

Of course you could argue that this already happens in the NFL when teams that are doing poorly purposefully tank games for a better draft pick.

Had the Colts won their last game of the season this year (very feasible since it was against a very poor Jags team) they would have picked third in the draft, not first.

Think any of this Peyton talk would be happening if the Colts weren't guaranteed Andrew Luck this year?

NJGIANTinNC
01-26-2012, 03:58 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.

How dare you? Derek Jeter is the Cats Pajamas.

* It is not cheating until you get caught.

- and the Cheatriots have been caught many a time.

burier
01-26-2012, 03:58 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

burier
01-26-2012, 04:00 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 04:09 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

Ok so not the j-walking of the NFL ... more like a mild speeding ticket.

$500,000 sounds impressive to you or me. But to a guy who makes $7.5 mill a year? Not so much.

And $250,000 fine on a billionaire (Robert Kraft) IS akin to a j-walking fine for you or me.

And I never said it didn't give an advantage ... I just said that there are more obvious forms of "cheating" going on that give more of an advantage and are commonly practiced.

You do understand WHY the Pats got fined/docked draft picks right? Because the media, on a rather slow news day, picked this up and ran with it, relying on the outraged naivete of people like the OP to generate ratings. The NFL gets a blackeye, so it has to appear to do something about it (sort of like the whole concussion thing and then watching Jimmy Graham play with a concussion in the playoffs). It was done commonly before and is still done commonly today.

Or did you think everyone with a cam-corder at an NFL practice today hanging out by the fences works for that team?

If I'm off-base, you're an astronaut http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif

vcruz2013
01-26-2012, 04:14 PM
lol this thread is ridiculous... as if the dude in charge of the score board having it say 3rd instead of 4th really affected Cundiff... if he doesn't know the down it's his fault as an NFL professional. Especially in the AFCCG with the game riding on his leg.

Stop grasping at straws. The Patriots were one of the best coached/best executed franchise throughout the years they won their super bowls. There is no "asterisk" by their seasons, or super bowls. That was just something people said to make Pats fans salty. Not because its reality.

DragonSoul
01-26-2012, 04:17 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.I do not think thats the case. I do not recall this being taught in anyway. Maybe I am Naive, but if thats the truth then its a very sad stage of affairs.

The first thing I was taught the first time I was asked to play OG was to grab the front of the opposing players' jersey and flare my elbows so the hold wasn't obvious.

Pretty much every offensive lineman will tell you that they have been taught something similar.

It's specifically cheating since you are intentionally committing a penalty AND trying to hide it.

But I'm not going to condemn a specific NFL team for employing the strategy ... it would be kind of silly wouldn't it?

But I can guarantee you that offensive holding has A LOT more effect on a given football game, than any video tape of any practice in history.

Shrug.Thanks for the insight. Maybe its depends on the game played? I know at times there is an obvious line.

For example. Calling a false hike from the opposing team. IMO - It is not cheating, as the offense is the one who should know when they are going, and be disciplined enough not to false start.

Something Peyton was masterful of was hiking the ball with 12 men on the field, or when the defense was changing the package.
Some would say that was cheating, but imho I feel that is the competitive edge, that you need to be ready for at any time, and if you do get caught with your pants down, then it all on how fast you bring them back up and cover your tukas

SweetZombieJesus
01-26-2012, 04:19 PM
Derek Jeter cheated and no one is more loved and respected than Jeter.</p>


Whhhaaa??? </p>


Must be a Mets fan</p>


</p>


</p>


Yes, I hate to admit it. I was just making a point that everyone (even the God named Jeter) will cheat to win. It just matters how far you are willing to go. </p>

I don't know if "acting" is so much "cheating". It's just part of sports. Come on, how quickly you forget this:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/720702/2035220FYLRq4VE_medium.gif

burier
01-26-2012, 04:23 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

Ok so not the j-walking of the NFL ... more like a mild speeding ticket.

$500,000 sounds impressive to you or me. But to a guy who makes $7.5 mill a year? Not so much.

And $250,000 fine on a billionaire (Robert Kraft) IS akin to a j-walking fine for you or me.

And I never said it didn't give an advantage ... I just said that there are more obvious forms of "cheating" going on that give more of an advantage and are commonly practiced.

You do understand WHY the Pats got fined/docked draft picks right? Because the media, on a rather slow news day, picked this up and ran with it. It was done commonly before and is still done commonly today.

Or did you think everyone with a cam-corder at an NFL practice today hanging out by the fences works for that team?

If I'm off-base, you're an astronaut http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif

YOU ARE GLIB

So now the Patriots were being punished by the media?????

That statement has absolutely no basis.

And what is a first round draft choice in the NFL worth? Chump change???? ( you forgot that one :)

Fact of the matter is when you get fined the maximum the league is allowed to fine you and you lose a draft choice in the first round you know you did something pretty damn bad there's really no way to rationalize those facts away.

As far as it being done commonly again you speak with no factual basis for that statement. And you definately have no basis to say that its happening commonly today.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most teams aren't willing to sacrifice a first round draft choice and there for refrain from the practice.

I'll also say that many coaches at the time said they never EVER employed those tactics. So that "everyone was doing it" line doesn't fly either.

And you're analogy about blocking is hiliarious. You're not seriously comparing pass blocking to a scandle that actually caught the attention of a United States senator are you?????

And then my favorite part for the Spy Gate apologist...THE NFL BURNED THE TAPES!!

Imagine a beat cop covering up a J-walking collar.

That's how asinine your suggestion is.

vcruz2013
01-26-2012, 04:35 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

Ok so not the j-walking of the NFL ... more like a mild speeding ticket.

$500,000 sounds impressive to you or me. But to a guy who makes $7.5 mill a year? Not so much.

And $250,000 fine on a billionaire (Robert Kraft) IS akin to a j-walking fine for you or me.

And I never said it didn't give an advantage ... I just said that there are more obvious forms of "cheating" going on that give more of an advantage and are commonly practiced.

You do understand WHY the Pats got fined/docked draft picks right? Because the media, on a rather slow news day, picked this up and ran with it. It was done commonly before and is still done commonly today.

Or did you think everyone with a cam-corder at an NFL practice today hanging out by the fences works for that team?

If I'm off-base, you're an astronaut http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif

YOU ARE GLIB

So now the Patriots were being punished by the media?????

That statement has absolutely no basis.

And what is a first round draft choice in the NFL worth? Chump change???? ( you forgot that one :)

Fact of the matter is when you get fined the maximum the league is allowed to fine you and you lose a draft choice in the first round you know you did something pretty damn bad there's really no way to rationalize those facts away.

As far as it being done commonly again you speak with no factual basis for that statement. And you definately have no basis to say that its happening commonly today.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most teams aren't willing to sacrifice a first round draft choice and there for refrain from the practice.

I'll also say that many coaches at the time said they never EVER employed those tactics. So that "everyone was doing it" line doesn't fly either.

And you're analogy about blocking is hiliarious. You're not seriously comparing pass blocking to a scandle that actually caught the attention of a United States senator are you?????

And then my favorite part for the Spy Gate apologist...THE NFL BURNED THE TAPES!!

Imagine a beat cop covering up a J-walking collar.

That's how asinine your suggestion is.


"It's bad because the NFL/media made it look bad, and I said it's bad!!!"

talk about asinine

stormblue
01-26-2012, 04:35 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

i type very slowly so it takes quite an effort to try to make my point . so this will be my last attempt at it. time to move on.
you (for some unknown reason) think that what happened with spygate is somehow relevant to the game and not just a political
tattle-tale rulefest.
i disagree , the only relevance it has is that a rule got broken.......so the penalty must be administered. we all know the red-headed NFL dictator is a control freak. the rule is stupid and not pertinent in larger scheme of things.
by this reasoning you probably actually
think that , without Watergate , Nixon would have lost to McGovern. wrong.
"Watergate" had no bearing on the outcome of the election.
"Spygate" had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

why the heavy penalties ?
because it's political , not because it's pertinent.

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 04:37 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.I do not think thats the case. I do not recall this being taught in anyway. Maybe I am Naive, but if thats the truth then its a very sad stage of affairs.

The first thing I was taught the first time I was asked to play OG was to grab the front of the opposing players' jersey and flare my elbows so the hold wasn't obvious.

Pretty much every offensive lineman will tell you that they have been taught something similar.

It's specifically cheating since you are intentionally committing a penalty AND trying to hide it.

But I'm not going to condemn a specific NFL team for employing the strategy ... it would be kind of silly wouldn't it?

But I can guarantee you that offensive holding has A LOT more effect on a given football game, than any video tape of any practice in history.

Shrug.Thanks for the insight. Maybe its depends on the game played? I know at times there is an obvious line.

For example. Calling a false hike from the opposing team. IMO - It is not cheating, as the offense is the one who should know when they are going, and be disciplined enough not to false start.

Something Peyton was masterful of was hiking the ball with 12 men on the field, or when the defense was changing the package.
Some would say that was cheating, but imho I feel that is the competitive edge, that you need to be ready for at any time, and if you do get caught with your pants down, then it all on how fast you bring them back up and cover your tukas

Well that brings up a good point ... what's cheating and what isn't?

Technically, what I described with the holding IS cheating since it purposefully breaks the rules and by design seeks to hide that fact.

Spygate wasn't ACTUALLY cheating, since there was no rule governing it at the time. It was just unethical.

I agree about what you said about Peyton Manning ... being more aware of your surroundings then your opponent isn't cheating.

On the other hand, there is a rule against it for a reason ... it gave an unfair advantage.

Hence, why I don't tend to get all bent out of shape about cries of cheating in sports .... not only does you definition of cheating come into play, but it's so rampant at so many levels as to be just a part of the game now.

Probably why we still call them "games" and not "matches".

P.S. - I don't think it depends on the game ... it happens anywhere competition happens. Anything from as minor as spotting a catcher's signal in baseball, to purposefully fouling in basketball. So much so in fact, that in many cases people wouldn't even acknnowledge it as "cheating" ... just as strategy. Such is the nature of competition.

DragonSoul
01-26-2012, 04:43 PM
I hate to burst a bubble ... but all teams cheat in the NFL.

And they have since the before the NFL started.

And it's not confined to football.

All apart of competitive sports.I do not think thats the case. I do not recall this being taught in anyway. Maybe I am Naive, but if thats the truth then its a very sad stage of affairs.

The first thing I was taught the first time I was asked to play OG was to grab the front of the opposing players' jersey and flare my elbows so the hold wasn't obvious.

Pretty much every offensive lineman will tell you that they have been taught something similar.

It's specifically cheating since you are intentionally committing a penalty AND trying to hide it.

But I'm not going to condemn a specific NFL team for employing the strategy ... it would be kind of silly wouldn't it?

But I can guarantee you that offensive holding has A LOT more effect on a given football game, than any video tape of any practice in history.

Shrug.Thanks for the insight. Maybe its depends on the game played? I know at times there is an obvious line.

For example. Calling a false hike from the opposing team. IMO - It is not cheating, as the offense is the one who should know when they are going, and be disciplined enough not to false start.

Something Peyton was masterful of was hiking the ball with 12 men on the field, or when the defense was changing the package.
Some would say that was cheating, but imho I feel that is the competitive edge, that you need to be ready for at any time, and if you do get caught with your pants down, then it all on how fast you bring them back up and cover your tukas

Well that brings up a good point ... what's cheating and what isn't?

Technically, what I described with the holding IS cheating since it purposefully breaks the rules and by design seeks to hide that fact.

Spygate wasn't ACTUALLY cheating, since there was no rule governing it at the time. It was just unethical.

I agree about what you said about Peyton Manning ... being more aware of your surroundings then your opponent isn't cheating.

On the other hand, there is a rule against it for a reason ... it gave an unfair advantage.

Hence, why I don't tend to get all bent out of shape about cries of cheating in sports .... not only does you definition of cheating come into play, but it's so rampant at so many levels as to be just a part of the game now.

Probably why we still call them "games" and not "matches".Well we agree on whats "cheating' and along that line, then what is ethical. In a lot of ways they go hand in hand, as it is based on your intent.

Personally, if you are able to control the outcome with the opposing person having the same opportunities and abilities then its all good in love and war.

But if you are trying to take an edge that is against the rules, unethical, or an advantage like taking images like spy gate that the other team was not doing. Then its different.

How many teams wouldn't want to have done the same as NE (some may have), yet because (you hope) it was unethical and gave one team an advantage (big or small, at times doesn't matter)over the other, they didn't go that route. But if it wasn't an issue, then all would have done it.

Wouldn't it be similar to how coaches have film on formations, and plays during the game, and then having one side not have access to it? (or am i off here?)

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 04:45 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

Ok so not the j-walking of the NFL ... more like a mild speeding ticket.

$500,000 sounds impressive to you or me. But to a guy who makes $7.5 mill a year? Not so much.

And $250,000 fine on a billionaire (Robert Kraft) IS akin to a j-walking fine for you or me.

And I never said it didn't give an advantage ... I just said that there are more obvious forms of "cheating" going on that give more of an advantage and are commonly practiced.

You do understand WHY the Pats got fined/docked draft picks right? Because the media, on a rather slow news day, picked this up and ran with it. It was done commonly before and is still done commonly today.

Or did you think everyone with a cam-corder at an NFL practice today hanging out by the fences works for that team?

If I'm off-base, you're an astronaut http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif

YOU ARE GLIB

So now the Patriots were being punished by the media?????

That statement has absolutely no basis.

And what is a first round draft choice in the NFL worth? Chump change???? ( you forgot that one :)

Fact of the matter is when you get fined the maximum the league is allowed to fine you and you lose a draft choice in the first round you know you did something pretty damn bad there's really no way to rationalize those facts away.

As far as it being done commonly again you speak with no factual basis for that statement. And you definately have no basis to say that its happening commonly today.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most teams aren't willing to sacrifice a first round draft choice and there for refrain from the practice.

I'll also say that many coaches at the time said they never EVER employed those tactics. So that "everyone was doing it" line doesn't fly either.

And you're analogy about blocking is hiliarious. You're not seriously comparing pass blocking to a scandle that actually caught the attention of a United States senator are you?????

And then my favorite part for the Spy Gate apologist...THE NFL BURNED THE TAPES!!

Imagine a beat cop covering up a J-walking collar.

That's how asinine your suggestion is.

I've thought about what you said and it indeed makes a lot of sense and I now agree with you.

(how do you make red text again?)

burier
01-26-2012, 04:46 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

i type very slowly so it takes quite an effort to try to make my point . so this will be my last attempt at it. time to move on.
you (for some unknown reason) think that what happened with spygate is somehow relevant to the game and not just a political
tattle-tale rulefest.
i disagree , the only relevance it has is that a rule got broken.......so the penalty must be administered. we all know the red-headed NFL dictator is a control freak. the rule is stupid and not pertinent in larger scheme of things.
by this reasoning you probably actually
think that , without Watergate , Nixon would have lost to McGovern. wrong.
"Watergate" had no bearing on the outcome of the election.
"Spygate" had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

why the heavy penalties ?
because it's political , not because it's pertinent.

I respect your effort to condescend to me but you couldn't do it on your best day.

I believe that if there is a rule in place that it is there for a reason.

You're ideas about how "little" these tactics effect that game just don't make sense because political or not as you say the penalty will be heavy.

So now you see the flaw in your position?

I'll explain. Josh McDaniels a former Pats employee employed the same spy gate tactics in London AFTER Spygate and AFTER the heavy fines.

So unless Josh McDaniels (Who is currently employed by the Patriots) is psychotic he would not film hand singnals and risk losing his job/draft picks/money for something that is irrelevant to the game. He clearly believed that the advantage was worth the risk. (IE: AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME)

I don't really know how else to explain it.

burier
01-26-2012, 04:47 PM
You do understand that substituting players has to happen equally on both sides specifically because of players like Peyton Manning quick-hiking the ball to get a 12 man penalty right?

The question is not whether it's "ok" ... it's whether you get caught.

Sad but true.

Of course it also depends on where you draw the line at what is "cheating".

If you really want to be mad ... be mad at the NFL for not punishing them more.

Do you even read what your write? Talking about a 12th man penalty flag and thinking it goes right up there with spygate?


Yeah I'm the one that's deluded here.

Have fun.

-EDIT- You're treating "spygate" as if we've found the smoking gun of cheating in the NFL, when in actuality you're screaming about the Patriots doing the NFL equivelant of J-Walking.

You so far off base I'm actually impressed.

So J-walking results in a $500,000 dollar fine to the coach which was the league Maximum?

J walking results in $250,000 fine for the Pats

J-Walking results in docking of A FIRST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE!

You're not making the least bit of sense.

And again with these types of ramifications Josh McDaniels was caught doing the same damn thing which tells me it MUST give a significant advantage.

Ok so not the j-walking of the NFL ... more like a mild speeding ticket.

$500,000 sounds impressive to you or me. But to a guy who makes $7.5 mill a year? Not so much.

And $250,000 fine on a billionaire (Robert Kraft) IS akin to a j-walking fine for you or me.

And I never said it didn't give an advantage ... I just said that there are more obvious forms of "cheating" going on that give more of an advantage and are commonly practiced.

You do understand WHY the Pats got fined/docked draft picks right? Because the media, on a rather slow news day, picked this up and ran with it. It was done commonly before and is still done commonly today.

Or did you think everyone with a cam-corder at an NFL practice today hanging out by the fences works for that team?

If I'm off-base, you're an astronaut http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif

YOU ARE GLIB

So now the Patriots were being punished by the media?????

That statement has absolutely no basis.

And what is a first round draft choice in the NFL worth? Chump change???? ( you forgot that one :)

Fact of the matter is when you get fined the maximum the league is allowed to fine you and you lose a draft choice in the first round you know you did something pretty damn bad there's really no way to rationalize those facts away.

As far as it being done commonly again you speak with no factual basis for that statement. And you definately have no basis to say that its happening commonly today.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most teams aren't willing to sacrifice a first round draft choice and there for refrain from the practice.

I'll also say that many coaches at the time said they never EVER employed those tactics. So that "everyone was doing it" line doesn't fly either.

And you're analogy about blocking is hiliarious. You're not seriously comparing pass blocking to a scandle that actually caught the attention of a United States senator are you?????

And then my favorite part for the Spy Gate apologist...THE NFL BURNED THE TAPES!!

Imagine a beat cop covering up a J-walking collar.

That's how asinine your suggestion is.

I've thought about what you said and it indeed makes a lot of sense and I now agree with you.

(how do you make red text again?)

Had me going there. Thought you grew up.

bflo23
01-26-2012, 04:49 PM
Well that brings up a good point ... what's cheating and what isn't?

Technically, what I described with the holding IS cheating since it purposefully breaks the rules and by design seeks to hide that fact.

Spygate wasn't ACTUALLY cheating, since there was no rule governing it at the time. It was just unethical.

I agree about what you said about Peyton Manning ... being more aware of your surroundings then your opponent isn't cheating.

On the other hand, there is a rule against it for a reason ... it gave an unfair advantage.

Hence, why I don't tend to get all bent out of shape about cries of cheating in sports .... not only does you definition of cheating come into play, but it's so rampant at so many levels as to be just a part of the game now.

Probably why we still call them "games" and not "matches".

P.S. - I don't think it depends on the game ... it happens anywhere competition happens. Anything from as minor as spotting a catcher's signal in baseball, to purposefully fouling in basketball. So much so in fact, that in many cases people wouldn't even acknnowledge it as "cheating" ... just as strategy. Such is the nature of competition.

"Spygate wasn't ACTUALLY cheating"???? Please read this...... Page 105 of the 2007 NFL Game Operations Manual states, "No video
recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the
coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the
game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a
roof overhead."<sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference"><span>[</span>15<span>]</span> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controve rsy#cite_note-14)</sup>
Belichick stated that he believed that if footage so collected was not
used during the game, its collection was legal, as the NFL Constitution
and Bylaws stipulate that "...any communications or
information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or
field telephones, shall be prohibited...including without
limitation...any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team
during the playing of a game."<sup id="cite_ref-Rules_15-0" class="reference"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controve rsy#cite_note-Rules-15)</sup>
In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of
Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that
"videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an
opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the
sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other
locations accessible to club staff members during the game."<sup id="cite_ref-Rules_15-1" class="reference"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controve rsy#cite_note-Rules-15)

How clueless is Belichick? The entire NFL got a memo after Belichick was caught cheating vs the Packers (before the Jets) and Belichick ignored HIS WARNING and continued to cheat.

</sup>

Kruunch
01-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Wouldn't it be similar to how coaches have film on formations, and plays during the game, and then having one side not have access to it? (or am i off here?)

The major difference between watching teams on tape from past games and taping their practices that week is that any new plays they install for the game against you specifically are going to be shown in that practice.

I wll not go as far as to say every coach has done this (they haven't). I will say with 100% certainty that every *team* in the NFL has taped another teams' practice (or spied on it with the same intent) at some point or another.

This can be as widespread as having a head coach orchestrate it with his coordinators and some assistants or as low key as a position coach and his nephew,

The point I was trying to make (and failing miserably apparently) was that while this is unethical and against the "spirit" of fairplay (in many minds), realistically speaking it is not just a "Patriots" issue, nor is it THAT big of a deal (as I said, a few missed penalties in a game are far more damaging to one side or the other then watching a practice).

In the end this all boils down to philosophies ... one degree of "cheating" is another person's idea of "strategy".

I guess I'm just old and jaded enough not to be incensed when someone gets caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

NYG 5
01-26-2012, 04:57 PM
Was it cheating then they held, late hit, and hit kurt warner in the face during the entire super bowl?

burier
01-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Giants fans love Bill Belichick therefore he can do no wrong. Even when clearly does something very wrong.

stormblue
01-26-2012, 05:05 PM
Was it cheating then they held, late hit, and hit kurt warner in the face during the entire super bowl?

no , that was just common sense , even though they are no longer in the NFC east i still hate them and could not live with a Cardinals SB victory.

good honest , no calls.

G-Man67
01-26-2012, 05:06 PM
you know, not to defend the Patriots overall, b/c i do kinda believe that where there is smoke, there is fire



but think about it ... the play before the FG was the stripped TD ... you are the person employed to run the scoreboard and you are a HUGE, diehard Patriots fan ... i bet you are in the booth going YEAH, YEAH, THANK GOD, OMG, YEAH, YEAH!!! and then it hits you that you need to do your job ... i mean think about it ... i don't see an intentional cheat there

vcruz2013
01-26-2012, 05:09 PM
Giants fans love Bill Belichick therefore he can do no wrong. Even when clearly does something very wrong.

lol what does it even matter? He's still a HOF coach and Brady will still be a HOF QB... it doesn't matter how much you hate them

bflo23
01-26-2012, 06:21 PM
you know, not to defend the Patriots overall, b/c i do kinda believe that where there is smoke, there is fire



but think about it ... the play before the FG was the stripped TD ... you are the person employed to run the scoreboard and you are a HUGE, diehard Patriots fan ... i bet you are in the booth going YEAH, YEAH, THANK GOD, OMG, YEAH, YEAH!!! and then it hits you that you need to do your job ... i mean think about it ... i don't see an intentional cheat there</p>

If you look at that long list of cheating incidents by the Patriots, it isn't just a little smoke. It is a forest fire. And I heard some Patriot fan said "The NFL hires special nfl officials to run the scoreboard." That is wrong! The people that run the scoreboard are Patriots employees. It is score board for crying out loud. The Red Sox have "special MLB officials" putting up the numbers in the green monster wall too.
</p>

stormblue
01-26-2012, 07:14 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

i type very slowly so it takes quite an effort to try to make my point . so this will be my last attempt at it. time to move on.
you (for some unknown reason) think that what happened with spygate is somehow relevant to the game and not just a political
tattle-tale rulefest.
i disagree , the only relevance it has is that a rule got broken.......so the penalty must be administered. we all know the red-headed NFL dictator is a control freak. the rule is stupid and not pertinent in larger scheme of things.
by this reasoning you probably actually
think that , without Watergate , Nixon would have lost to McGovern. wrong.
"Watergate" had no bearing on the outcome of the election.
"Spygate" had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

why the heavy penalties ?
because it's political , not because it's pertinent.

I respect your effort to condescend to me but you couldn't do it on your best day.

I believe that if there is a rule in place that it is there for a reason.

You're ideas about how "little" these tactics effect that game just don't make sense because political or not as you say the penalty will be heavy.

So now you see the flaw in your position?

I'll explain. Josh McDaniels a former Pats employee employed the same spy gate tactics in London AFTER Spygate and AFTER the heavy fines.

So unless Josh McDaniels (Who is currently employed by the Patriots) is psychotic he would not film hand singnals and risk losing his job/draft picks/money for something that is irrelevant to the game. He clearly believed that the advantage was worth the risk. (IE: AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME)

I don't really know how else to explain it.


being a slow typer has nothing to do with being condescending. i merely pointed out
that trying to change your position in this matter is not going to happen. so why waste my time and effort.
that is in no way condescension but rather a recognition of the inability of the two of us to coalesce on this issue.
resorting to calling me a snob will not change my viewpoint nor will it improve my typing speed.

and as far as Josh goes.....i would say to you
that he still does it 'cuz everybody still does and think nothing of it.
it's so freakin' common that they forget that you are not supposed to do it regardless of the fines.

"I don't really know how else to explain it."

vcruz2013
01-26-2012, 09:01 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

i type very slowly so it takes quite an effort to try to make my point . so this will be my last attempt at it. time to move on.
you (for some unknown reason) think that what happened with spygate is somehow relevant to the game and not just a political
tattle-tale rulefest.
i disagree , the only relevance it has is that a rule got broken.......so the penalty must be administered. we all know the red-headed NFL dictator is a control freak. the rule is stupid and not pertinent in larger scheme of things.
by this reasoning you probably actually
think that , without Watergate , Nixon would have lost to McGovern. wrong.
"Watergate" had no bearing on the outcome of the election.
"Spygate" had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

why the heavy penalties ?
because it's political , not because it's pertinent.

I respect your effort to condescend to me but you couldn't do it on your best day.

I believe that if there is a rule in place that it is there for a reason.

You're ideas about how "little" these tactics effect that game just don't make sense because political or not as you say the penalty will be heavy.

So now you see the flaw in your position?

I'll explain. Josh McDaniels a former Pats employee employed the same spy gate tactics in London AFTER Spygate and AFTER the heavy fines.

So unless Josh McDaniels (Who is currently employed by the Patriots) is psychotic he would not film hand singnals and risk losing his job/draft picks/money for something that is irrelevant to the game. He clearly believed that the advantage was worth the risk. (IE: AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME)

I don't really know how else to explain it.


being a slow typer has nothing to do with being condescending. i merely pointed out
that trying to change your position in this matter is not going to happen. so why waste my time and effort.
that is in no way condescension but rather a recognition of the inability of the two of us to coalesce on this issue.
resorting to calling me a snob will not change my viewpoint nor will it improve my typing speed.

and as far as Josh goes.....i would say to you
that he still does it 'cuz everybody still does and think nothing of it.
it's so freakin' common that they forget that you are not supposed to do it regardless of the fines.

"I don't really know how else to explain it."

"Then why does no one else get caught by the patriots hurr durr" = anticipated response

vcruz2013
01-26-2012, 09:01 PM
So stealing hand signals (videotaping them with a coward spy), interpret them and come up with counter play being called in the headset is ok...... In other words, KNOWING the defensive play due to a coward spy and greatly benefiting from it.

I give credit to peyton manning because he does it the right way with his own knowledge and experience. He calls audibles the right way. Not the coward Brady way..... Audio tape confiscated....

Brady said "Hey Belichick. I need to know their defense. Hurry up. Clock is ticking. I don't know what to do.".

Belichick said "You got a corner going to blitz you on your right. I want you to hit Faulk with a quick screen."

Brady said "Thanks coach. You are the best and I love our secret camera man spy. Tell him beers are on me after the game."


the guy with the spycam up in the booth during the game is doing the same thing.

you are allowed to film and study all that crap.
just not the hand signals.......stupidest rule i ever heard of.

what do you think all that game film Payton studies is all about. tendencies.

and that little story you wrote about Brady and Belichick is what goes on all day long with every QB on every team in every game.

the D even uses headsets and spycams now , so they they don't even need hand signals .anymore.

You simply know not of which you speak

i type very slowly so it takes quite an effort to try to make my point . so this will be my last attempt at it. time to move on.
you (for some unknown reason) think that what happened with spygate is somehow relevant to the game and not just a political
tattle-tale rulefest.
i disagree , the only relevance it has is that a rule got broken.......so the penalty must be administered. we all know the red-headed NFL dictator is a control freak. the rule is stupid and not pertinent in larger scheme of things.
by this reasoning you probably actually
think that , without Watergate , Nixon would have lost to McGovern. wrong.
"Watergate" had no bearing on the outcome of the election.
"Spygate" had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

why the heavy penalties ?
because it's political , not because it's pertinent.

I respect your effort to condescend to me but you couldn't do it on your best day.

I believe that if there is a rule in place that it is there for a reason.

You're ideas about how "little" these tactics effect that game just don't make sense because political or not as you say the penalty will be heavy.

So now you see the flaw in your position?

I'll explain. Josh McDaniels a former Pats employee employed the same spy gate tactics in London AFTER Spygate and AFTER the heavy fines.

So unless Josh McDaniels (Who is currently employed by the Patriots) is psychotic he would not film hand singnals and risk losing his job/draft picks/money for something that is irrelevant to the game. He clearly believed that the advantage was worth the risk. (IE: AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME)

I don't really know how else to explain it.


being a slow typer has nothing to do with being condescending. i merely pointed out
that trying to change your position in this matter is not going to happen. so why waste my time and effort.
that is in no way condescension but rather a recognition of the inability of the two of us to coalesce on this issue.
resorting to calling me a snob will not change my viewpoint nor will it improve my typing speed.

and as far as Josh goes.....i would say to you
that he still does it 'cuz everybody still does and think nothing of it.
it's so freakin' common that they forget that you are not supposed to do it regardless of the fines.

"I don't really know how else to explain it."

"Then why does no one else get caught but the patriots hurr durr" = anticipated response

Voldamort
01-26-2012, 09:05 PM
Leave Jeter alone that's gamenship we needed a baserunner please 5 rings!!!

Kruunch
01-27-2012, 11:15 AM
you know, not to defend the Patriots overall, b/c i do kinda believe that where there is smoke, there is fire



but think about it ... the play before the FG was the stripped TD ... you are the person employed to run the scoreboard and you are a HUGE, diehard Patriots fan ... i bet you are in the booth going YEAH, YEAH, THANK GOD, OMG, YEAH, YEAH!!! and then it hits you that you need to do your job ... i mean think about it ... i don't see an intentional cheat there</p>

If you look at that long list of cheating incidents by the Patriots, it isn't just a little smoke. It is a forest fire. And I heard some Patriot fan said "The NFL hires special nfl officials to run the scoreboard." That is wrong! The people that run the scoreboard are Patriots employees. It is score board for crying out loud. The Red Sox have "special MLB officials" putting up the numbers in the green monster wall too.
</p>

I heard Bellichik was on the grassy knoll too http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-43.gif

GMENAGAIN
01-27-2012, 11:30 AM
Didn't we fake an injury this year to slow down the Rams?</P>


Spygate is way overblown. To say that the Pats have 3 tainted SB's is just silly. </P>

Kruunch
01-27-2012, 11:39 AM
Didn't we fake an injury this year to slow down the Rams?</P>


Spygate is way overblown.* To say that the Pats have 3 tainted SB's is just silly.* </P>

Exactly.

But easily offended people will be easily offended.

burier
01-27-2012, 11:51 AM
Note that the NFL thinks this is a very serious offense. But apparently people on GMB know how to govern the NFL better than the NFL knows how to govern Itself.

It seems as though spygate was only overblown to closeted Patriots fans.

To everyone else it was a pretty egregious offense to the integrity of the game.