PDA

View Full Version : Toomer says ’07 Giants wideouts had to be “acrobats”



Gianthunter
02-02-2012, 10:19 AM
Toomer, a key member of the Super Bowl XLII championship Giants, said that Eli’s accuracy has improved dramatically over the years, and that his “strike zone” has gotten smaller.</P>


So how bad was it? “We were acrobats,” Toomer said. “We had to be. . . . We didn’t have the chance to catch the ball, turn up field, and get as many yards as we can, because most of the time we were just trying to catch the ball.”</P>


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/02/toomer-says-07-giants-wideouts-had-to-be-acrobats/</P>

gumby742
02-02-2012, 10:24 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 10:29 AM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 10:39 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>

not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important

Pakman
02-02-2012, 10:40 AM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.

Pakman
02-02-2012, 10:40 AM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 10:43 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>

G-Stan
02-02-2012, 10:46 AM
How is he being biter when he has done nothing but support the Giants? The receives now are great, but their was greatness before them. Peps are fickle and forget really quick when things are going well.

SweetZombieJesus
02-02-2012, 10:48 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 10:49 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.
</P>


I think it was pretty clear Toomer was talking about throws that were made when they were open and had the opportunity to "turn it up field". Eli has been money all year - putting in places where only his WRs could get it when he does chuck it up. He's been very accurate.</P>

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:07 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>

not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:08 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?

chasjay
02-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.
</p>


I think it was pretty clear Toomer was talking about throws that were made when they were open and had the opportunity to "turn it up field". Eli has been money all year - putting in places where only his WRs could get it when he does chuck it up. He's been very accurate.</p>

I'm an Eli guy and have no problem conceding that he has improved year-by-year - including with his accuracy. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? But I would think that you'd acknowledge that there was at least a touch of hyperbole in Toomer's statement. I'm proud that Eli has continued (and continues) to work on and improve his game, and having had a receiver like Toomer to work with, without doubt, has been a big part in that development.

I see neither harm, nor foul, here.

G-Man67
02-02-2012, 11:13 AM
Eli throws WRs open and that sometimes means WRs will have to make acrobatic like adjustments



Eli, of course, has improved ... does anyone remember Peyton early in his career? ... he had some playoff performances that would make you think he was the worst QB on the planet



it's amazing that there is still all this anti-Eli sentiment, but i shouldn't be surprised ... negative fans never appreciated Simms either until he was gone ... i just say be careful what you wish for

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 11:15 AM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.I barely saw Eli go deep in that SB year. Only big play threat was Burress and when they needed a bomb, Eli was able to put it in their hands. He always had a great deep ball.

If I remember correctly, Eli hit Toomer in stride against the cowgirls in the playoffs that he took into the house.

I think Toomer is a little bitter over these WR making all these big plays. I remember he was asked a question on WFAN about how the WR are so much more of a big play threat now than in 07 and he objected to that saying Eli is a lot more accurate now.

He is definitely more accurate because he has improved. But in 07 he was still accurate enough to win the SB. His WR are just simply younger and faster now and Toomer will never admit that.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Remember that acrobatic catch by Ballard against the Pats this year on 3rd and 10? Well your friends QB Troy Aikman said the throw was behind and it wasn't a good pass just a great catch. Turned out that he couldn't be further from the truth.

The play was designed for only Ballard to make the catch up high. The pass was perfect and Ballard made an excellent catch..Just saying, looks can be deceiving.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:21 AM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.I barely saw Eli go deep in that SB year. Only big play threat was Burress and when they needed a bomb, Eli was able to put it in their hands. He always had a great deep ball.

If I remember correctly, Eli hit Toomer in stride against the cowgirls in the playoffs that he took into the house.

I think Toomer is a little bitter over these WR making all these big plays. I remember he was asked a question on WFAN about how the WR are so much more of a big play threat now than in 07 and he objected to that saying Eli is a lot more accurate now.

He is definitely more accurate because he has improved. But in 07 he was still accurate enough to win the SB. His WR are just simply younger and faster now and Toomer will never admit that.

the question was early in his career... i highly doubt he was referencing 07-08 in making these statements as much

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 11:21 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year.* You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then.* Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07.* It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:22 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.




no i agree... but gumby was trying to apply it to our debates over the years and it would be inaccurate to do so

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 11:25 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year.* You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then.* Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07.* It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying
Probably not either but it's safe to assume Eli has improved since Toomer and the gang left. And hopefully we will be seeing this Eli for the next decade.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 11:27 AM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying
Probably not either but it's safe to assume Eli has improved since Toomer and the gang left. And hopefully we will be seeing this Eli for the next decade.

its true but Eli also got at the age where QBs start to take the big turns in their career...

it just happened to coincide with Toomer leaving. imo at least

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying


Amani made the point very clear this week that Eli is making these WR's look good.

nycisgreat
02-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Toomer, a key member of the Super Bowl XLII championship Giants, said that Eli’s accuracy has improved dramatically over the years, and that his “strike zone” has gotten smaller.</P>


So how bad was it?* “We were acrobats,” Toomer said. “We had to be. . . . We didn’t have the chance to catch the ball, turn up field, and get as many yards as we can, because most of the time we were just trying to catch the ball.”</P>


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/02/toomer-says-07-giants-wideouts-had-to-be-acrobats/</P>

Absolutely true. Eli's accuracy has gotten better over the pass 4.5 years. I remember screaming at the TV when he throw Plaxico's head by ten yards. I remember in Superbowl 42 there was one play where he had Plaxico wide open on a out route and he couldn't connect.

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 11:30 AM
I remember in Superbowl 42 there was one play where he had Plaxico wide open on a out route and he couldn't connect.That's because there was miscommunication

SackingMyths
02-02-2012, 11:31 AM
I take zero issue with what Amani is saying. Former Giants players don't need to be biased and tip-toe around analysis, so long as they're not trying to stir up controversy for attention (*cough*Tiki*cough*)

Some of you won't like to hear this, but one of the best analysts I hear nowadays is none other than Michael Irvin. On BSPN, he was awful and clearly was told to be a Cowboys homer and posterboy. But on the NFL Network, he is completely honest-and-unbiased, and doesn't seem to have any agenda or mandate given to him by his producers. And I'm sure his fair analysis of the Giants makes some Cowgirl crybabies think he's a traitor. But they're dumb. He had us winning both games against them this year, for what it's worth.

I feel that Amani's stating that Eli has vastly improved and that's high praise for a QB.

Eli used to throw high, perhaps out of necessity due to the lack of speed in the receiving corps. He's now adapted to the smaller, but shiftier guys who gain more separation.

He remains the one constant in this offense and has proven that he can adapt to any receivers that he has. That's a true sign of a top signal-caller.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:31 AM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.


i would absolutely agree those balls should of been picked and we got lucky they weren't

(oh no duck, i said the word luck)

If you want to play the woulda coulda shoulda game about the 07 superbowl, your right - Samuel should of picked that ball off. But also on the flipside Smith should of caught that ball that hit him in the hands instead of having it bounce off and go for a pick on the 10 yard line while we were driving. So i'll consider that a push.

Eli's accuracy has improved, but i would say most fans are just late to that boat. Hes been getting balls to WRs for the past two years in similiar ways and not got the props for it. I've tried to point it out and gotten into pages of battles on here over it.

And i'm sorry 16 INTs vs the 25 last year coupled with the the inconsistancy at WR and the tipped balls - hes not that much better. The stat may be, but the play isn't MUCH better.

Like I said, alot of his success this year comes with a WR core that makes plays, hes comfortable with, and that hes on the same page with.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:33 AM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying


Amani made the point very clear this week that Eli is making these WR's look good.


well then i completely disagree... how many balls were short balls that our WRs talents caused to go for a big play?

I thoroughly disagree with that assessment. Im sure they mutually benefit off each other, but i'd say the WRs made Eli look better

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:34 AM
Toomer, a key member of the Super Bowl XLII championship Giants, said that Eli’s accuracy has improved dramatically over the years, and that his “strike zone” has gotten smaller.</p>


So how bad was it? “We were acrobats,” Toomer said. “We had to be. . . . We didn’t have the chance to catch the ball, turn up field, and get as many yards as we can, because most of the time we were just trying to catch the ball.”</p>


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/02/toomer-says-07-giants-wideouts-had-to-be-acrobats/</p>

Absolutely true. Eli's accuracy has gotten better over the pass 4.5 years. I remember screaming at the TV when he throw Plaxico's head by ten yards. I remember in Superbowl 42 there was one play where he had Plaxico wide open on a out route and he couldn't connect.

See Gumby - u were misinterpreting Toomers points. NYC agrees with me.

You got your time periods mixed

SackingMyths
02-02-2012, 11:36 AM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.


If you want to play the woulda coulda shoulda game about the 07 superbowl, your right - Samuel should of picked that ball off. But also on the flipside Smith should of caught that ball that hit him in the hands instead of having it bounce off and go for a pick on the 10 yard line while we were driving. So i'll consider that a push.




Thank you! I tweet this at Skip Clueless all the time when he brings up his stupid "Asante Buckner" nonsense, but completely ignores the Smith tip-drill.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 11:50 AM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.


If you want to play the woulda coulda shoulda game about the 07 superbowl, your right - Samuel should of picked that ball off. But also on the flipside Smith should of caught that ball that hit him in the hands instead of having it bounce off and go for a pick on the 10 yard line while we were driving. So i'll consider that a push.




Thank you! I tweet this at Skip Clueless all the time when he brings up his stupid "Asante Buckner" nonsense, but completely ignores the Smith tip-drill.


don't let good ol skip get to u

hes not there for his knowledge, hes there just to say things to get the masses pissed off...

nygsb42champs
02-02-2012, 11:59 AM
He is right. You never knew where his passes where going back then.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying


Amani made the point very clear this week that Eli is making these WR's look good.


well then i completely disagree... how many balls were short balls that our WRs talents caused to go for a big play?

I thoroughly disagree with that assessment. Im sure they mutually benefit off each other, but i'd say the WRs made Eli look better


The host commented on how great the receivers were this year and he said something like "hey, don't forget what this quarterback has done."

Whatever the case, I think Amani has an understanding of the subtleties between the 2 positions. But like you said both positions benefit from each other.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year. You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?


I think Amani's point is how much better Eli is now than then. Nothing else.

Eli is a much different player than he was in '07. It's only natural.


He might also be implying that the WR aren't that much better now than from 07. We don't really know what he's saying.

I would have to highly doubt thats what he was saying


Amani made the point very clear this week that Eli is making these WR's look good.


well then i completely disagree... how many balls were short balls that our WRs talents caused to go for a big play?

I thoroughly disagree with that assessment. Im sure they mutually benefit off each other, but i'd say the WRs made Eli look better


The host commented on how great the receivers were this year and he said something like "hey, don't forget what this quarterback has done."

Whatever the case, I think Amani has an understanding of the subtleties between the 2 positions. But like you said both positions benefit from each other.



I mean I just think to the plays where Eli threw to Cruz in double and triple coverage and he tipped the ball and ran for a TD, or when it was a simple dig route in which he cut two defenders and broke a huge TD, or when Nicks pinballed on a cross route between 3 defenders and was able to score...

things like that are situations where the WRs make the play and it benefits the QB. I just think there are more opportunities for WRs to make their QB look good.

But eli has been putting the ball in tighter spaces than when a man tries to bang a doorknob

bflo23
02-02-2012, 12:15 PM
Anybody who has seen Eli in 2007 and Eli in 2011 knows there is a huge difference?

Everybody knows he is a much better QB now than in 2007. It is common sense. But the 2007 WRs are far slower and less talented than the Giants current WRs.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 12:21 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>


I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>

bflo23
02-02-2012, 12:25 PM
Hey Gumby. Tell us again how much you hate Eli and think he isn't even a "top 100 NFL player".

Eli is gonna serve some crow after this Super Bowl like he did to you in the 2008 Super Bowl.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 12:31 PM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.


i would absolutely agree those balls should of been picked and we got lucky they weren't

(oh no duck, i said the word luck)

If you want to play the woulda coulda shoulda game about the 07 superbowl, your right - Samuel should of picked that ball off. But also on the flipside Smith should of caught that ball that hit him in the hands instead of having it bounce off and go for a pick on the 10 yard line while we were driving. So i'll consider that a push.

Eli's accuracy has improved, but i would say most fans are just late to that boat. Hes been getting balls to WRs for the past two years in similiar ways and not got the props for it. I've tried to point it out and gotten into pages of battles on here over it.

And i'm sorry 16 INTs vs the 25 last year coupled with the the inconsistancy at WR and the tipped balls - hes not that much better. The stat may be, but the play isn't MUCH better.

Like I said, alot of his success this year comes with a WR core that makes plays, hes comfortable with, and that hes on the same page with.




That pass with Asante was a "floater" that Samuels just blew. Steve had to go down low to make a play so I don't blame Steve solely for that deflection.

I think JR said recently that he believed that Eli was trying to do too much last year, and I would agree with that. Doing "too much" caused him to make poor decisions pre-snap and during the play.

While I think my assessment of Eli has always been fair, if we win on Sunday I guess it can be said that I was way too hard on him. But I know I'm not alone. Every Giants fan I know (off of this board) thinks less of him then I do, if you can believe that!

He is one odd QB. He doesn't have the look, the attitude, or the style. He just seems to win. How cool is that?

gumby742
02-02-2012, 12:31 PM
Hey Gumby. Tell us again how much you hate Eli and think he isn't even a "top 100 NFL player".

Eli is gonna serve some crow after this Super Bowl like he did to you in the 2008 Super Bowl.
</P>


Edit: response to another post.</P>

bflo23
02-02-2012, 12:32 PM
I already heard many ESPN analysts say Eli will make the hall of fame if he wins this Super Bowl.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:36 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>


I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>

well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.

ShockeyShow
02-02-2012, 12:36 PM
Eli would probably say the same thing himself. He got better year in and year out bc he recognized his weaknesses

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:39 PM
First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.


If you want to make the "hitting the ball in hands" argument then we have to face the fact that we should have been picked off twice in the last Super Bowl. And if Samuels makes that pick in the end we lose of course.

Eli's accuracy has improved. He's not throwing high all the time like he did last year, and he's hitting players in stride much more often. And lastly, and most important is (like in late '07) he's not turning the ball over. He's more careful - throwing it away or taking the sack.

Those things are undeniable.


i would absolutely agree those balls should of been picked and we got lucky they weren't

(oh no duck, i said the word luck)

If you want to play the woulda coulda shoulda game about the 07 superbowl, your right - Samuel should of picked that ball off. But also on the flipside Smith should of caught that ball that hit him in the hands instead of having it bounce off and go for a pick on the 10 yard line while we were driving. So i'll consider that a push.

Eli's accuracy has improved, but i would say most fans are just late to that boat. Hes been getting balls to WRs for the past two years in similiar ways and not got the props for it. I've tried to point it out and gotten into pages of battles on here over it.

And i'm sorry 16 INTs vs the 25 last year coupled with the the inconsistancy at WR and the tipped balls - hes not that much better. The stat may be, but the play isn't MUCH better.

Like I said, alot of his success this year comes with a WR core that makes plays, hes comfortable with, and that hes on the same page with.




That pass with Asante was a "floater" that Samuels just blew. Steve had to go down low to make a play so I don't blame Steve solely for that deflection.

I think JR said recently that he believed that Eli was trying to do too much last year, and I would agree with that. Doing "too much" caused him to make poor decisions pre-snap and during the play.

While I think my assessment of Eli has always been fair, if we win on Sunday I guess it can be said that I was way too hard on him. But I know I'm not alone. Every Giants fan I know (off of this board) thinks less of him then I do, if you can believe that!

He is one odd QB. He doesn't have the look, the attitude, or the style. He just seems to win. How cool is that?




It was a slant that he was working into that hit him in both of his hands. Im sorry but that was just as bad of a drop as the Samuel drop.

I heard a lil bit of that on fat boys TV show last night as I was going to sleep. I agree Eli was, but he also said that there was alot of transition at the WR position which made it hard for Eli.

Where do u live?

Hes not an odd QB though. He absolutely has the perfect attitude. I can't believe you'd say that. Nothing gets to him, he is fear less, hes tough, he doesn't throw his teammates under the bus. He is what a QB should be. That rah rah **** only goes so far - especially in NY (ask the Jets)

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:39 PM
Eli would probably say the same thing himself. He got better year in and year out bc he recognized his weaknesses


holy christ

where have u been

Ruttiger711
02-02-2012, 12:39 PM
Go watch any Larry Fitzgerald highlight reel and you're going to see more acrobatic catches than not.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:40 PM
Go watch any Larry Fitzgerald highlight reel and you're going to see more acrobatic catches than not.

and yes, even with Kurt Warner throwing him the ball

burier
02-02-2012, 12:41 PM
Eli would tell you he's a better player today than he was 4 years ago. You're either getting better or getting worse.

Sorry Gumby. Nothing to see here.

GameTime
02-02-2012, 12:41 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>


</P>


I have heard Tommer say this before. He never says it with any bitterness. </P>

JJC7301
02-02-2012, 12:44 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


+1. I don't think that too many of us Giant fans would say that accuracy was Eli's strength, but he's definitely gotten better. </P>


I don't see this as some cheap hit by Toomer, and I hope that fans and the media (especially) don't make it out to be that way. </P>

bflo23
02-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Simple common sense here. When people asked Toomer "Is Eli better now than in 2007?". He said that this Eli is way better than the 2007 Eli...... Anybody with eyes knows that.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 12:45 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>


</p>


I have heard Tommer say this before. He never says it with any bitterness. </p>

I'll tell ya Toomer does tell it like it is. I remember going into 07 after Tiki's comments he was one of the first to defend Eli...

Toomer will always be a Giant great in my eyes

TrueBlue@NYC
02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Toomers' right to a point that Eli didn't have the accuracy he has now, as would be expected of a 8th year QB vs a 4th year QB. </P>


But also, I've looked back at those 2007 and 2008 games and neither Toomer or Plax were very good at getting any separation. Many times it came down to putting the ball where either the WR would make an acrobatic catch or it's incomplete. </P>

GameTime
02-02-2012, 01:15 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>


</P>


I have heard Tommer say this before. He never says it with any bitterness. </P>




I'll tell ya Toomer does tell it like it is. I remember going into 07 after Tiki's comments he was one of the first to defend Eli...

Toomer will always be a Giant great in my eyes
</P>


no doubt. He was saying what we all saw on our TVs every sunday...</P>


</P>

nyknstill!
02-02-2012, 01:18 PM
Toomer is right to a point. But even w/ it deep down he knows, him, Plax and Hilliard and Tyree, were just not as explosive as this group. With much respect, Cruz has become a monster in the slot, it's like having a WR Barry Sanders. Nicks is just as dangerous on the under and deep route, and then you have Mario.

Eli had some issues. But honestly that group never could get much seperation. This group has +2,000 yds. on that group. And Cruz broke a longtime Giants WR record. No disrespect but it is what is. And I know Toomer doesn't mean it like that.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 02:09 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>


I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>

NYDestroyer
02-02-2012, 02:31 PM
There are some truth to that.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 02:50 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>


</p>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>




your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on
u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</p>




</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my
memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't
"easy" throws.</p>




</p>
If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not
enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater.
You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play

burier
02-02-2012, 02:59 PM
This should be interesting.* I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having.* It's making him look bad.* Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit:* And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh?* Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands?* You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate.* First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them.* Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route.* Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough.* And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.*

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right?* Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>


</p>



I was here since 05 I think.* My first user name was gumby74.* I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion.* lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride.* I say nothing about making difficult throws.* Only the basics.* And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts.* However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in.* In this case, Warner was extremely accurate.* Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer.* He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year.* His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride.* Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB.* More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch.* All the tipped passes last year?* Most of those were TERRIBLE throws.* Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not.* You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck.* Had they been good throws, yes.* They weren't.* He has done that less this year.* From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past.* Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did.* Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him.* I put the blame on both parties.* The QB for making a terrible throw.* And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands.* The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time.* If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy.* Being accurate is playing the %'s.* Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate.* Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR.* When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc.* They hit the easy ones more often then not.* And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald & Anquon Boldin.* He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate.* My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy.* I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR.* Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams.* Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open.* Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it.* It's the easy throw I'm always harping on.* Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different.* You look at the harder throws and you judge that.* I take the*easier *throws and I judge that.* </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year.* Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows.* I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making.* It's not just in 2007.* He had issues well after also.* His tipped passes are an example.* I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burress*wide open* but my memory doesn't go back that far.* </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>




your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on
u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.**</p>




</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my
memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't
"easy" throws.</p>




</p>
If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not
enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater.*
You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play


See this is the problem. No one wants to be specific because.. What the **** is an "easy" throw anyway?

Unless we can get Eli in here to testify as to what qualifies as an easy throw in HIS mind all the word "easy" is in this debate is a nebulous non-descript term that Eli detractors love to use. Since we can't quantify "decision making" or "easy" those terms can't be definatively be disputed making them nice cushy fall back terms when the debate starts going the wrong way.

What the hell is easy? A five yard in cut? You're telling me Eli missed that throw consistently????

All BS Eli hate.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 02:59 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>

Dover Giant
02-02-2012, 03:03 PM
Don't think it bothers Eli too much

NYtoSanDiego
02-02-2012, 03:04 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

+1

i agree totally and very few of them ran the routes based on coverage.

its amazing how he says that now cause i remember more than a few catches where eli led them to run after the catch. divisional game against the cowboys for a TD.

i love how some ex-players when they have nothing good to say at all have to speak up just because.

burier
02-02-2012, 03:05 PM
This should be interesting.* I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having.* It's making him look bad.* Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit:* And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh?* Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands?* You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate.* First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them.* Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route.* Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough.* And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.*

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right?* Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think.* My first user name was gumby74.* I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion.* lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride.* I say nothing about making difficult throws.* Only the basics.* And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts.* However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in.* In this case, Warner was extremely accurate.* Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer.* He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year.* His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride.* Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB.* More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch.* All the tipped passes last year?* Most of those were TERRIBLE throws.* Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not.* You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck.* Had they been good throws, yes.* They weren't.* He has done that less this year.* From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past.* Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did.* Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him.* I put the blame on both parties.* The QB for making a terrible throw.* And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands.* The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time.* If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy.* Being accurate is playing the %'s.* Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate.* Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR.* When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc.* They hit the easy ones more often then not.* And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald & Anquon Boldin.* He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate.* My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy.* I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR.* Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams.* Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open.* Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it.* It's the easy throw I'm always harping on.* Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different.* You look at the harder throws and you judge that.* I take the*easier *throws and I judge that.* </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year.* Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows.* I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making.* It's not just in 2007.* He had issues well after also.* His tipped passes are an example.* I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burress*wide open* but my memory doesn't go back that far.* </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.**</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater.* You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that.* Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli.* He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude.* I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws.* I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk.* I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc.* But in the context of this discussion.* It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol.* i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever.* I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was.* I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you.* Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>

Do you see how intellectually dishonest you are? How can you say someone is "arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from beind" I have enough faith in you to believe that you know that statement doesn't make sense.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 03:08 PM
See this is the problem. No one wants to be specific because.. What the **** is an "easy" throw anyway? Unless we can get Eli in here to testify as to what qualifies as an easy throw in HIS mind all the word "easy" is in this debate is a nebulous non-descript term that Eli detractors love to use. Since we can't quantify "decision making" or "easy" those terms can definatively be disputed making them nice cushy fall back terms when the debate starts going the wrong way. What the hell is easy? A five yard in cut? You're telling me Eli missed that throw consistently???? All BS Eli hate.</P>


No, but he missed it more consistently then Ben did. And I do watch Ben play every week.</P>


What's an easy throw? Like you said, no one really knows. Just like no one really knows if Manningham or such and such ran the wrong routes. But when a WR has no one within 3 steps of him, the QB has no pressure and has all day to throw, that should be an easy throw for him. It's oversimplified I know. </P>


But in the Saints offense, Brees has WR open all day. Hitting them in stride should be childs play. I think Eli is more talented a passer then Brees. Brees just hits them in stride.</P>

Gianthunter
02-02-2012, 03:09 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. +1 i agree totally and very few of them ran the routes based on coverage. its amazing how he says that now cause i remember more than a few catches where eli led them to run after the catch. divisional game against the cowboys for a TD. i love how some ex-players when they have nothing good to say at all have to speak up just because.Toomer did nothing but praise Eli in the interview.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Do you see how intellectually dishonest you are? How can you say someone is "arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from beind" I have enough faith in you to believe that you know that statement doesn't make sense.</P>


That statement makes total sense. If you play average for 56 minutes, then play like superman the last 2 minutes of each half, does that make you a stud? or above average? Eli is an enigma this way and imo, that's why people don't know what to make of him. He's so damn talented, but he struggled with a lot of things in the past.</P>


</P>

gumby742
02-02-2012, 03:16 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>


</P>


</P>


Matt, you're a mod. Can't you just query old posts or something? The search thing doesn't go back that far.</P>

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 03:18 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>



</p>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</p>



</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</p>



</p>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</p>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</p>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</p>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</p>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</p>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>

lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 03:19 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>



</p>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</p>



</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</p>



</p>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</p>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</p>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</p>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</p>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</p>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


</p>


</p>


Matt, you're a mod. Can't you just query old posts or something? The search thing doesn't go back that far.</p>

na they naturally delete when they havne't been viewed after a certain amount of time

burier
02-02-2012, 03:25 PM
Do you see how intellectually dishonest you are? How can you say someone is "arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from beind" I have enough faith in you to believe that you know that statement doesn't make sense.</P>


That statement makes total sense.* If you play average for 56 minutes, then play like superman the last 2 minutes of each half, does that make you a stud?* or above average?* Eli is an enigma this way and imo, that's why people don't know what to make of him.* He's so damn talented, but he struggled with a lot of things in the past.</P>


*</P>

A game is 60 minutes long. The fundamentals of your statement somehow devalues that late part of the game despite the late part of the game being the part where the game is won. That's the first problem with that statement.

To simplify. Who do you want? A QB who can't finish a game or a QB who can?

There's no such thing as an Average QB who brings his team back. Average QBs need a lead or they need the game to be very close or they lose.

You can research that over the past 60 years of football. What you just accused Eli of is so rare that trying call him average in the same sentence is oxymoronic.

You've used this same line of thinking before. Where you basically look at certain parts of the picture which support your preconceived notion which is why you are called a hater. Everything you say about Eli is rationale.

like your insistence that I should look at Eli's game to game passer rating Vs his season passer rating. Why should I? Oh right because looking at the stats that way better suits your purpose. (And it actually doesn't which makes it even funnier)

Now I'm supposed to look at specific portions of a game all in a effort for you to draw some conclusion that simply is not there.

A winning QB is not average or slightly above average or whatever. Quite the contrary in fact.

burier
02-02-2012, 03:30 PM
This should be interesting.* I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having.* It's making him look bad.* Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit:* And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh?* Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands?* You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate.* First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them.* Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route.* Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough.* And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.*

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right?* Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>



</p>



I was here since 05 I think.* My first user name was gumby74.* I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion.* lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride.* I say nothing about making difficult throws.* Only the basics.* And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts.* However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in.* In this case, Warner was extremely accurate.* Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer.* He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year.* His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride.* Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB.* More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch.* All the tipped passes last year?* Most of those were TERRIBLE throws.* Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not.* You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck.* Had they been good throws, yes.* They weren't.* He has done that less this year.* From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past.* Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did.* Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him.* I put the blame on both parties.* The QB for making a terrible throw.* And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands.* The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time.* If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy.* Being accurate is playing the %'s.* Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate.* Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR.* When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc.* They hit the easy ones more often then not.* And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald & Anquon Boldin.* He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate.* My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy.* I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR.* Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams.* Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open.* Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it.* It's the easy throw I'm always harping on.* Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different.* You look at the harder throws and you judge that.* I take the*easier *throws and I judge that.* </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year.* Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows.* I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making.* It's not just in 2007.* He had issues well after also.* His tipped passes are an example.* I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burress*wide open* but my memory doesn't go back that far.* </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.**</p>



</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</p>



</p>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater.* You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</p>


Oh I'm not denying that.* Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli.* He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</p>


Dude.* I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws.* I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk.* I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</p>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc.* But in the context of this discussion.* It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</p>


lol.* i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever.* I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was.* I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</p>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you.* Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


</p>


*</p>


Matt, you're a mod.* Can't you just query old posts or something?* The search thing doesn't go back that far.</p>

na they naturally delete when they havne't been viewed after a certain amount of time


Well who's been viewing all those posts from 2009?

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 04:14 PM
what do u mean?

gumby742
02-02-2012, 04:14 PM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>




lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths
</P>


No use to argue about the past because there's no way we can check the old threads. But i did remember you misunderstanding me over and over and over again in those 100 page threads.</P>


Exactly. Save for a handful, no one every said he was the greatest. No one also said he was terrible either. Post 2007-2008, everyone said top 10 at least - including me. I just said that if I were to start a team from scratch and I had to pick a QB, Eli might not be in the top 15. I'd probably take Stafford over him.</P>


My posts were full of the above like points. After a while people just summed it up as, "you think Eli is the 15th best in the league. YOu think stafford is better then Eli". Hardly the case. And I remember you doing a similar thing - but maybe on a different topic.</P>


I also remember talking about Ben vs Eli a ton. People asked me why I preferred Ben over Eli. And I said, Ben was accurate, consistent, and efficient. And THAT's when we started talking about accuracy. I also said over and over again that everything is relative - especially when I made statements like Eli was inaccurate. And, I really don't want to explain what relative means again.</P>


I'll tell you when you admitted that accuracy wasn't that big a deal in your book and how it happened. I said something like such: "Most NFL QBs can hit their WRs in the hands when given time. You consider a ball thrown that hits a WR in the hands an accurate throw. Thus, most NFL QBs are accurate. If most NFL QBs are accurate, then accuracy isn't that important a stat." Your response was: "I guess." and then some unrelated stuff.</P>


</P>


Edit for semantics.</P>

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 04:25 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt.

Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages.

Toomer prior to Eli, had speed & was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL & others. Once Plax came in & Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner & knew how to get open.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 04:31 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed &amp; was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL &amp; others. Once Plax came in &amp; Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner &amp; knew how to get open.</P>


&lt;troll voice&gt;</P>


Funny. Not Rivers or Ben. </P>

Kruunch
02-02-2012, 04:32 PM
I wonder if Jesus got bashed like this after he walked on water.

Oh wait ... I know the answer to that one.

Carry on.

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 04:39 PM
Nicks, Cruz, and Ballard have all made acrobatic catches this year.* You have to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance to get it but he has to GO GET IT.


another excellent point

and I would say that the ACROBATIC plays they made were much more athletic than most plays made by Toomer - yet Eli is considered to be such a different player?
yet when calvin johnson catches all those chucks & ducks between 2 to 3 guys most times, that makes not only johnson good but stafford as well. Or even breed w/all that yac. Always different for Eli. Thats why i normally don't waste my time on these topics anymore.

gmen0820
02-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Eli has been a beast this year. He is making stick throws like never before, and is moving way better in the pocket.

bflo23
02-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Yea. Eli has definitely been a beast and ESPN analysts are already talking about Eli making the hall of fame if he wins this super bowl. This is Gumby's worst nightmare.... Not only to beat his favorite Brady in 2 super bowls but Eli in the hall of fame.

Gumby hasn't slept right since the Super Bowl in 2008.

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 05:01 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed & was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL & others. Once Plax came in & Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner & knew how to get open.</P>


<troll voice></P>


Funny.* Not Rivers or Ben.* </P>You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time.

Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much.

What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses.

Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career.

Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.

bflo23
02-02-2012, 05:04 PM
Gumby definitely doesn't need any troll voice tags.

Everybody already knows about him.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Rivers didn't have a start to his career like Eli because he didn't play the first two years of his career and then inherited what was claimed to be the best team in football preseason every year for like 3 years

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

theres bens numbers, he dind't struggle? alrighty then

that superbowl run was on the running game and the defense, don't kid urself

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 05:06 PM
I wonder if Jesus got bashed like this after he walked on water.

Oh wait ... I know the answer to that one.

Carry on.

I can't believe you are comparing Gumby to Jesus.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 05:13 PM
Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


Join the club. Actually, I think you were there before me.

Truth is several people had so much faith in him that they expected him to be terrific from day one. And when he wasn't they blamed everything and it's mother instead of just admitting he was a work in progress just like most QB's.

calzonesays
02-02-2012, 05:20 PM
&lt;insert obligatory "Toomer is bitter" here&gt;

but seriously, Eli now vs. Eli in 2007? Eli now throws darts all over the field. Sure 2007 eli threw some wobbling duck passes but he is much better now.

MattMeyerBud
02-02-2012, 05:25 PM
&lt;insert obligatory "Toomer is bitter" here&gt;

but seriously, Eli now vs. Eli in 2007? Eli now throws darts all over the field. Sure 2007 eli threw some wobbling duck passes but he is much better now.


it wasn't bitter, he was actually complimenting Eli

bflo23
02-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


Join the club. Actually, I think you were there before me.

Truth is several people had so much faith in him that they expected him to be terrific from day one. And when he wasn't they blamed everything and it's mother instead of just admitting he was a work in progress just like most QB's.






You shouldn't agree with a poster who mocks Eli and believes Eli isn't even the top 100 NFL players. Gumby said that and he believes that. Look at his signature.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 05:32 PM
I wonder if Jesus got bashed like this after he walked on water. Oh wait ... I know the answer to that one. Carry on.

I can't believe you are comparing Gumby to Jesus.
</P>


come forth my child. do not be afraid.</P>

sharick88
02-02-2012, 05:33 PM
I have no problem with what Toomer says. I think he is a great up and coming analyst. I also found it interesting when he stated on Jim Rome that there should be an asterisk around the patriots' championships if they lose this Sunday against us.

Gianthunter
02-02-2012, 05:37 PM
Just as I thought. Shootin fish in a barrel. This has been entertaining to say the least sadly I'm out of popcorn. Cheers.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 05:39 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed &amp; was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL &amp; others. Once Plax came in &amp; Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner &amp; knew how to get open.</P>


<TROLL voice></P>


Funny. Not Rivers or Ben. </P>


You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time. Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much. What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses. Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career. Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.</P>


This is funny. We're having a discussion about pre 2011 Eli as if it were the present. But I'm not going to talk about that now. Eli is playing great right now. I'mthrilled with the status quo. Everyone is. I'll talk about my stance pre-2011, but I'm not going to talk about Eli and comparing pre 2011 Eli with Ben/Rivers etc.</P>


Look, you can give reasons until you're blue in the face. Just try to apply those same reasons to any other QB when judging them. If you do, then I stay silent. If you don't, I'm going to say something. Example: Eli is elite. Ben is not. *cough*</P>

burier
02-02-2012, 05:45 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed &amp; was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL &amp; others. Once Plax came in &amp; Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner &amp; knew how to get open.</P>


<TROLL voice></P>


Funny. Not Rivers or Ben. </P>


You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time. Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much. What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses. Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career. Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.</P>


This is funny. We're having a discussion about pre 2011 Eli as if it were the present. But I'm not going to talk about that now. Eli is playing great right now. I'mthrilled with the status quo. Everyone is. I'll talk about my stance pre-2011, but I'm not going to talk about Eli and comparing pre 2011 Eli with Ben/Rivers etc.</P>


Look, you can give reasons until you're blue in the face. Just try to apply those same reasons to any other QB when judging them. If you do, then I stay silent. If you don't, I'm going to say something. Example: Eli is elite. Ben is not. *cough*</P>


</P>


</P>


are you trying to say Ben had a better season than Eli this year?</P>

bflo23
02-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Keep on hating Eli, Gumby Troll.

Laugh it up that you think Eli isn't in the top 100 NFL players.

If Eli wins, you are going to eat crow. We will bump this up for you. You will relive the nightmare from the super bowl in 2008.

Roosevelt
02-02-2012, 05:55 PM
Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


Join the club. Actually, I think you were there before me.

Truth is several people had so much faith in him that they expected him to be terrific from day one. And when he wasn't they blamed everything and it's mother instead of just admitting he was a work in progress just like most QB's.




You shouldn't agree with a poster who mocks Eli and believes Eli isn't even the top 100 NFL players. Gumby said that and he believes that. Look at his signature.


I never saw him mock Eli.

As far as I know he's only busting on those who mocked him for speaking honestly about the young Eli.

I haven't heard him say anything bad about 2011 Eli.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

bgblucru5656
02-02-2012, 06:04 PM
IMO, it was a compliment to eli. his accuracy has improved drastically over the past 3-4 years. i dont think he was "dissing" eli. he was just saying he's gotten much better. people need to read between the lines to see the small print

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 06:07 PM
IMO, it was a compliment to eli. his accuracy has improved drastically over the past 3-4 years. i dont think he was "dissing" eli. he was just saying he's gotten much better. people need to read between the lines to see the small print
I agree to an extent. Eli did get better but his receivers are also much better now than in 07, which doesn't require them to make as many acrobatic catches. Eli has a lot more room to work with now than in 07 where he was threading the needle on just about every single pass.

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 06:09 PM
Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you.* Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>


Join the club.* Actually, I think you were there before me.

Truth is several people had so much faith in him that they expected him to be terrific from day one.* And when he wasn't they blamed everything and it's mother instead of just admitting he was a work in progress just like most QB's.




Not true for all. I mentioned what he needed to get better @, but I felt what we have seen had out weighted the negative & again he was young. Takes a while for QBs to develop, even Peyton. But many wanted to see it now w/no bumps in the road.

And Please do not tell about high expectations or his overall draft pick, because that has no basis to how he still needed time to develop (maybe not you, but quite a few used that to knock him, btw how are all those picks doing in SD with there, how many SBs?)

Getting tired of people generalizing either side of the argument.

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 06:13 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed & was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL & others. Once Plax came in & Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner & knew how to get open.</P>


<TROLL voice></P>


Funny.* Not Rivers or Ben.* </P>


You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time. Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much. What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses. Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career. Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.</P>


This is funny.* We're having a discussion about pre 2011 Eli as if it were the present.* But I'm not going to talk about that now.* Eli is playing great right now.* I'm*thrilled *with the status quo.* Everyone is.* I'll talk about my stance pre-2011, but I'm not going to talk about Eli and comparing pre 2011 Eli with Ben/Rivers etc.</P>


Look, you can give reasons until you're blue in the face.* Just try to apply those same reasons to any other QB when judging them.* If you do, then I stay silent.* If you don't, I'm going to say something.* Example:* Eli is elite.* Ben is not.* *cough*</P>Look through all my Eli posts in the past. I use to break down the other qbs and stats back then. I would say look them up, but they won't be accessible.

But I have been using the same for all qbs. Maybe you need too look in the Mirror. Even now I still am giving Sanchez a chance to prove himself, but you must of missed that post when generalizing again.

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 06:16 PM
IMO, it was a compliment to eli. his accuracy has improved drastically over the past 3-4 years. i dont think he was "dissing" eli. he was just saying he's gotten much better. people need to read between the lines to see the small print
I agree to an extent. Eli did get better but his receivers are also much better now than in 07, which doesn't require them to make as many acrobatic catches. Eli has a lot more room to work with now than in 07 where he was threading the needle on just about every single pass.After we lost Plax, and the rest of the original receiving core. I actually posted that Elis YAC will go up now. And it did each year. Partly because of Eli and partly because of the WRS. Plax was never a burner, and Toomer was towards the end of his career, and a step slower.

gumby742
02-02-2012, 06:19 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed &amp; was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL &amp; others. Once Plax came in &amp; Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner &amp; knew how to get open.</P>


<TROLL voice></P>


Funny. Not Rivers or Ben. </P>


You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time. Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much. What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses. Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career. Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.</P>


This is funny. We're having a discussion about pre 2011 Eli as if it were the present. But I'm not going to talk about that now. Eli is playing great right now. I'mthrilled with the status quo. Everyone is. I'll talk about my stance pre-2011, but I'm not going to talk about Eli and comparing pre 2011 Eli with Ben/Rivers etc.</P>


Look, you can give reasons until you're blue in the face. Just try to apply those same reasons to any other QB when judging them. If you do, then I stay silent. If you don't, I'm going to say something. Example: Eli is elite. Ben is not. *cough*</P>


Look through all my Eli posts in the past. I use to break down the other qbs and stats back then. I would say look them up, but they won't be accessible. But I have been using the same for all qbs. Maybe you need too look in the Mirror. Even now I still am giving Sanchez a chance to prove himself, but you must of missed that post when generalizing again.</P>


Ok. So what about Ben? You still think Eli is on a different playing level then Ben? If i remember right, you t hought Eli was "elite" and Ben was not.</P>

gumby742
02-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>





Join the club. Actually, I think you were there before me.

Truth is several people had so much faith in him that they expected him to be terrific from day one. And when he wasn't they blamed everything and it's mother instead of just admitting he was a work in progress just like most QB's.




You shouldn't agree with a poster who mocks Eli and believes Eli isn't even the top 100 NFL players. Gumby said that and he believes that. Look at his signature.


I never saw him mock Eli.

As far as I know he's only busting on those who mocked him for speaking honestly about the young Eli.

I haven't heard him say anything bad about 2011 Eli.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
</P>


bflo is my very own troll. I'm extremely honored. I don't think I've had one before.</P>

bflo23
02-02-2012, 06:24 PM
Gumby is in full panic mode because he is afraid that Eli is gonna ruin Brady's legacy.

Salt and pepper with your plate of crow after the Super Bowl?

DragonSoul
02-02-2012, 06:28 PM
They had to be acrobats because they couldn't get any separation and were old as dirt. Legit point, but I don't think I agree..well I dont totally agree.combo of both. Eli was up/down with that early on. LIKE ALL OTHER QBS starting out, but when he did have his moments or better games, most times the only way Plax or another wr would get in on a running TD was because of the broken coverages. Toomer prior to Eli, had speed & was our number 1 but was always under rated by the NFL & others. Once Plax came in & Eli just started, he was starting to slow down speed wise, but was now a great route runner & knew how to get open.</P>


<TROLL voice></P>


Funny.* Not Rivers or Ben.* </P>


You sure you need that troll voice tags? lol But on the serious side, you seem to forget a few things. Following Ben a bit more then Rivers, he was never asked to do much early in his career because his team was that good all around him. But have not looked into those stats to see the difference in a long time. Rivers was also playing with HOF players on offense, but didn't follow him much. What I do no as I have stated to you how Big Ben has played in the SB, and how both of them haven't been as clutch as it appears especially when facing tougher defenses. Many forget that Elis 1st 4 out of 5 games as a rookie were against top 4 defenses. That means out of those five he faced a number 1, number 2 number 3 and a number 4 ranked defense. NO OTHER ROOKIE ever faced that type of initial bunch games to start his career. Elis1st comeback was the last game of his rookie year when he audible to Tiki vs the Cowboys on like the 2-3 yd line 4 the dreaded shotgun draw for the win.</P>


This is funny.* We're having a discussion about pre 2011 Eli as if it were the present.* But I'm not going to talk about that now.* Eli is playing great right now.* I'm*thrilled *with the status quo.* Everyone is.* I'll talk about my stance pre-2011, but I'm not going to talk about Eli and comparing pre 2011 Eli with Ben/Rivers etc.</P>


Look, you can give reasons until you're blue in the face.* Just try to apply those same reasons to any other QB when judging them.* If you do, then I stay silent.* If you don't, I'm going to say something.* Example:* Eli is elite.* Ben is not.* *cough*</P>


Look through all my Eli posts in the past. I use to break down the other qbs and stats back then. I would say look them up, but they won't be accessible. But I have been using the same for all qbs. Maybe you need too look in the Mirror. Even now I still am giving Sanchez a chance to prove himself, but you must of missed that post when generalizing again.</P>


Ok.* So what about Ben?* You still think Eli is on a different playing level then Ben?* If i remember right, you t hought Eli was "elite" and Ben was not.</P>This year I do think Eli is Elite, and Ben is not (he is also a tough qb, but some say he/they make his injuries seem worse then they are).

Before this year I felt Eli was a top tier QB. Meaning Stat wise he was just under the top 3-5, but Clutch factor I felt he was with them if not better and if it was not for those 25 ints, people would have been discussing it last year it would have been a different discussion.

Ben I felt was around Eli levels but below him in standing as a qb, for many reasons. As I have touched based in the last few threads. From the team he had initially (tops in most rankings like defense, run game, oline), what the team asked of him (not to lose, they even said he was more of a manager earlier in his career). Crappy division he was in, and how did he do in all 3 SBS? Crappy as I have pointed out and you ignored as well.

Btw you want to talk about how he got into the SB 3 times, but not how he performed in them.

bflo23
02-02-2012, 06:29 PM
I never saw him mock Eli.

As far as I know he's only busting on those who mocked him for speaking honestly about the young Eli.

I haven't heard him say anything bad about 2011 Eli.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Look at his Eli bashing signature that he created like 5 days ago. He said and believes that Eli shouldn't be considered a top 100 NFL player. He agrees with Donovan McNabb being in the top 100 and Eli shouldn't be on the list. Read his signature and he just added his "Toomer comment" which wasn't a real diss but more of a compliment from 2007 Eli to 2012 Eli.... How is thinking that Gumby thinking Donovan McNabb is better than Eli in 2011 not a mocking Eli?

bflo23
02-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Gumby was crying after he heard so many ESPN analysts talk about Eli making the hall of fame if he wins.

Moss#83
02-02-2012, 10:10 PM
Question: if Eli's accuracy improved so much how come he has better completion % years than this? Last year he was throwing to guys off the street and still completed a higher percentage. Does anybody think Hagen and Calhoun are better than what we have now? Exactly.

Bottom line is this, Eli was always an accurate QB. Difference is he isn't trying to feed any disgruntled WR or TE anymore. I respect Toomer because he seemed to be the only WR trying to work with Eli from 04-06. Finally in 07 when suckey got injured, burress temporarily behaving and a hungry rookie SS all being on the same page with Eli, we win the SB.

Carl Banks knew Eli was the real deal. I remember his comment after a perfect pass to sucky during the regular season in 07 against the packers. Said not many people can make that nickle in the bucket throw like him. To be honest with you, there are some throws he makes that no Other QB can make.

slipknottin
02-02-2012, 10:13 PM
Toomer had no YAC capability anyway, lol

bflo23
02-02-2012, 11:04 PM
Question: if Eli's accuracy improved so much how come he has better completion % years than this? Last year he was throwing to guys off the street and still completed a higher percentage. Does anybody think Hagen and Calhoun are better than what we have now? Exactly.

Bottom line is this, Eli was always an accurate QB. Difference is he isn't trying to feed any disgruntled WR or TE anymore. I respect Toomer because he seemed to be the only WR trying to work with Eli from 04-06. Finally in 07 when suckey got injured, burress temporarily behaving and a hungry rookie SS all being on the same page with Eli, we win the SB.

Carl Banks knew Eli was the real deal. I remember his comment after a perfect pass to sucky during the regular season in 07 against the packers. Said not many people can make that nickle in the bucket throw like him. To be honest with you, there are some throws he makes that no Other QB can make.

I do think Eli has improved his accuracy much better in the past 3 years than in his first couple years. Where he really improved is in his decision making as he isn't forcing passes that get intercepted. As good as Plaxico and Toomer were, they were really slow and can't compare to the receivers in the past couple years. And people need to realize that Eli plays in a wind tunnel and not some sunny california weather or dome. When people say that this is his only "good" or "great" year, they are absolutely wrong.

In 2007, Eli outplayed Garcia, Romo, Favre and Brady in a epic playoff run and won the SUPER BOWL. I CALL THAT A GREAT YEAR! I could care less what his regular season stats say.

In 2008, he led the Giants with the 3rd ranked highest scoring offense and 12-4 record. If Plaxico Burress doesn't shoot himself, the Giants had a great chance to repeat as Super Bowl Champions. Giants weren't the same team after Plaxico shot himself. Giants were 10-0 at one point.

In 2009, he had a 93.1 QB rating. Is it Eli's fault that the Giants had the 30th ranked defense (points given up)? Nicks was just a rookie and Eli made Steve Smith look like a legit #1 WR (107 receptions and +1200 yards). Eli could only work with what he had.

In 2010, he led the Giants to be the 7th ranked offense as we saw the emergence of Nicks and Manningham come in their zones. 10-6 record? Pretty good. Eli did have some terrible luck when his receivers had a ton of passes bounced off their hands and turn into ints. He should have finished with like 15 INTs but like 10 INTs happened because of receivers errors.

In 2011,?????????????????????????..... We shall see what happens. He has shown an excellent presence in the pocket that we have never seen before. He is like a magician in the pocket where he holds the ball just enough before he takes a hit and knows when and where to step just to avoid a sack.

lawl
02-02-2012, 11:48 PM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

bflo23
02-03-2012, 12:20 AM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

Did you watch Eli in 2010? How can you say INTs off the facemask is Eli's fault? If you did, you would have noticed many passes that hit receivers dead in the hands where Eli actually wanted the ball and that should have been easy catch but it bounced off and into defender's hands. I remember balls bouncing off some their helmets to defenders. How is it that it is Eli's fault for the INTs like that when that happens? He had 9 INTs that weren't his fault.... The other 16 INTs were Eli's fault. Watch the video link. You will rethink that "all but one was Eli's fault". Listen to the announcers rip on the receivers.

Receiver fault: Tipped INT #1 (a foot away from manningham's helmet), Tipped #2 (hit bradshaw in face mask), Tipped INT #3, Tipped INT #5 (Nicks has to make that catch), Tipped INT #10 (Good spot but Nicks botched it), Bad route #12 INT (Nicks runs a slant and just stops), #15 INT, Tipped #24 (off chest of Bradshaw), #25 (OFF THE FACEMASK)

Eli fault: #4 INT, #6 INT, #7 INT, #8 INT, Tipped #9 INT (bad throw... not receiver fault), #11 INT, #13 INT, #14 INT, #16 INT, #17 INT, #18 INT, #19 INT, #20 INT, #21 INT, #22 INT, #23 INT
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc"><font color="#0000FF" size="4">25 INTs from 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc</font></a>

RonnieRotten
02-03-2012, 12:27 AM
Anyone want to give Kevin Gilbride a little credit in Eli's *improvement* from 2007 to 2012? Maybe a subtle change in pass routes. Plays called to Eli's passing strengths..... Eli's experience and maturity as an elite QB.
Go Giants.....ELIminate the Patriots.
RonnieRotten - Las Vegas, NV.

Manning
02-03-2012, 12:28 AM
Who cares the past is the ****in past

miked1958
02-03-2012, 12:28 AM
I don't totally disagree with the story. Will has grown over the years and is now not the same QB he was back then.

miked1958
02-03-2012, 12:30 AM
I think it's safe to say he was not always on target in 07. He did what he had to do when he had to do it. And got the win foe us.

Now he is deadly and a lot more sespasoned QB

bflo23
02-03-2012, 12:32 AM
He wasn't that accurate in the 2007 regular season but he still led the NFL with 6 game winning drives that season... And he really picked it up in the playoffs.

Harooni
02-03-2012, 12:34 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>id expect them to say toomer is a hater. like when we said the same things over the years.

bflo23
02-03-2012, 12:37 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>id expect them to say toomer is a hater. like when we said the same things over the years.


It is common sense that Eli is better nowadays than in the 2007 and before. Is this news? Anybody who listened to Toomer knows that he is complimenting Eli from turning from a good QB to an Elite QB. Toomer is always calling Eli.... Elite now.

radar-ray
02-03-2012, 12:53 AM
This should be interesting.* I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having.* It's making him look bad.* Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit:* And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>id expect them to say toomer is a hater. like when we said the same things over the years.


It is common sense that Eli is better nowadays than in the 2007 and before. Is this news? Anybody who listened to Toomer knows that he is complimenting Eli from turning from a good QB to an Elite QB. Toomer is always calling Eli.... Elite now.
Correct, but don't try to tell that to Eli's #1 hater from day 1.

G.I. Ants
02-03-2012, 02:05 AM
Eli did throw erratic in some games but I remember that he got hurt early in the season which affected his game for a while. As the season came to a close, he was healthier and throwing better passes. That year, the O-Line played brilliantly and the GMen led the league in rushing, which also helped Eli recover and find a nice rhythm as the season went on.

Plax was hurt all year long and made all types of acrobatic catches and made plays with his feet. He had a monster year considering he was constantly double teamed. Eli used to regularly throw passes he had to stretch out or jump for. This is probably one of the reasons why Reese drafted Ramses Barden post Plax.

Lambeau12
02-03-2012, 02:23 AM
I still remember that catch he made against us in the Championship game. That one hurt but I give the guy credit, that was a heck of a catch and not many receivers would have made that catch.

calzonesays
02-03-2012, 02:29 AM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

this. trolls from other teams talk about how "lucky" we were this season, but last season was probably the most unlucky season.

tons of Eli tipped passes for INTs, Bradshaw fumbled like 6 times, don't even get me started on Matt Dodge.

G-Men Surg.
02-03-2012, 03:04 AM
Mmmmm, I don't know about that Tooms !
Back then I KNOW for sure if you, Plax and Jeremy had the willingness of hitching up with Eli in all those offseason like Peyton and Co. did it for so many years the the outcome could have been different. I remember it all so well you saying that wasn't neccesary, that training camp and OTAs were enough.
I'm sorry but I don't agree.

jakegibbs
02-03-2012, 08:47 AM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.

Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????

Moss#83
02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.

Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????lol anyone who even implies this is a clown. Eli was always an accurate QB. He threw INT just like every QB in the NFL. But we just tend to analyze things to an extreme where one bad pass a game can turn a QB into a horrible inaccurate one.

Moss#83
02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.

Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????lol anyone who even implies this is a clown. Eli was always an accurate QB. He threw INT just like every QB in the NFL. But we just tend to analyze things to an extreme where one bad pass a game can turn a QB into a horrible inaccurate one.

Moss#83
02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.

Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????lol anyone who even implies this is a clown. Eli was always an accurate QB. He threw INT just like every QB in the NFL. But we just tend to analyze things to an extreme where one bad pass a game can turn a QB into a horrible inaccurate one.

gumby742
02-03-2012, 09:37 AM
This year I do think Eli is Elite, and Ben is not (he is also a tough qb, but some say he/they make his injuries seem worse then they are). Before this year I felt Eli was a top tier QB. Meaning Stat wise he was just under the top 3-5, but Clutch factor I felt he was with them if not better and if it was not for those 25 ints, people would have been discussing it last year it would have been a different discussion. Ben I felt was around Eli levels but below him in standing as a qb, for many reasons. As I have touched based in the last few threads. From the team he had initially (tops in most rankings like defense, run game, oline), what the team asked of him (not to lose, they even said he was more of a manager earlier in his career). Crappy division he was in, and how did he do in all 3 SBS? Crappy as I have pointed out and you ignored as well. Btw you want to talk about how he got into the SB 3 times, but not how he performed in them.</P>


You have points. Facts are facts. So answer this question now. Why in your opinion why does Eli sit above Ben?</P>


What I'm getting at is for all the reasons you want to provide for Eli being top tier and better then Ben, you don't give nearly the same amount of for lack of a better term, "excuse room" for Ben. </P>


Example: You keep saying he stunk in his SB Victories. He certainly did not play lights out. So, you discredit Ben for his SB. Yet you choose to neglect that he DID play lights out during the entire regular season AND the playoffs. At the same token, you give full credit to Eli in 2007. Yet, his entire regular season was arguably mediocre. He only picked it up in the post season - a whopping total of 4 games. Please don't tell you don't have a double standard here.</P>

gumby742
02-03-2012, 09:42 AM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient. Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????lol anyone who even implies this is a clown. Eli was always an accurate QB. He threw INT just like every QB in the NFL. But we just tend to analyze things to an extreme where one bad pass a game can turn a QB into a horrible inaccurate one.</P>


When compared to his peers (Ben, Rivers) , anytime a QB needs 600-800 more attempts to have the same number of career yards and TDs, I'd say that's pretty inefficient. That's pretty telling right there.</P>

gumby742
02-03-2012, 10:01 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>




lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths
</P>


No use to argue about the past because there's no way we can check the old threads. But i did remember you misunderstanding me over and over and over again in those 100 page threads.</P>


Exactly. Save for a handful, no one every said he was the greatest. No one also said he was terrible either. Post 2007-2008, everyone said top 10 at least - including me. I just said that if I were to start a team from scratch and I had to pick a QB, Eli might not be in the top 15. I'd probably take Stafford over him.</P>


My posts were full of the above like points. After a while people just summed it up as, "you think Eli is the 15th best in the league. YOu think stafford is better then Eli". Hardly the case. And I remember you doing a similar thing - but maybe on a different topic.</P>


I also remember talking about Ben vs Eli a ton. People asked me why I preferred Ben over Eli. And I said, Ben was accurate, consistent, and efficient. And THAT's when we started talking about accuracy. I also said over and over again that everything is relative - especially when I made statements like Eli was inaccurate. And, I really don't want to explain what relative means again.</P>


I'll tell you when you admitted that accuracy wasn't that big a deal in your book and how it happened. I said something like such: "Most NFL QBs can hit their WRs in the hands when given time. You consider a ball thrown that hits a WR in the hands an accurate throw. Thus, most NFL QBs are accurate. If most NFL QBs are accurate, then accuracy isn't that important a stat." Your response was: "I guess." and then some unrelated stuff.</P>


</P>


Edit for semantics.</P>


</P>


Bump for mmb.</P>


Talking about Eli is just too fun. I need some means to burn off my nervous energy before Sunday.</P>

MattMeyerBud
02-03-2012, 10:15 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>



</p>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</p>



</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</p>



</p>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</p>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</p>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</p>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</p>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</p>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>




lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths
</p>


No use to argue about the past because there's no way we can check the old threads. But i did remember you misunderstanding me over and over and over again in those 100 page threads.</p>


Exactly. Save for a handful, no one every said he was the greatest. No one also said he was terrible either. Post 2007-2008, everyone said top 10 at least - including me. I just said that if I were to start a team from scratch and I had to pick a QB, Eli might not be in the top 15. I'd probably take Stafford over him.</p>


My posts were full of the above like points. After a while people just summed it up as, "you think Eli is the 15th best in the league. YOu think stafford is better then Eli". Hardly the case. And I remember you doing a similar thing - but maybe on a different topic.</p>


I also remember talking about Ben vs Eli a ton. People asked me why I preferred Ben over Eli. And I said, Ben was accurate, consistent, and efficient. And THAT's when we started talking about accuracy. I also said over and over again that everything is relative - especially when I made statements like Eli was inaccurate. And, I really don't want to explain what relative means again.</p>


I'll tell you when you admitted that accuracy wasn't that big a deal in your book and how it happened. I said something like such: "Most NFL QBs can hit their WRs in the hands when given time. You consider a ball thrown that hits a WR in the hands an accurate throw. Thus, most NFL QBs are accurate. If most NFL QBs are accurate, then accuracy isn't that important a stat." Your response was: "I guess." and then some unrelated stuff.</p>


</p>


Edit for semantics.</p>


</p>


Bump for mmb.</p>


Talking about Eli is just too fun. I need some means to burn off my nervous energy before Sunday.</p>

didn't i respond to that already? If i dind't, ur gonna have to wait cuz I typed something long out for it and i don't feel like doing it again. Im too busy gathering myself from the Simms DISSED Eli thread

gumby742
02-03-2012, 10:22 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</P>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</P>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</P>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</P>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</P>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</P>



</P>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</P>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</P>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</P>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</P>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</P>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</P>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</P>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </P>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </P>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</P>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</P>



</P>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</P>



</P>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</P>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</P>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</P>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</P>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</P>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</P>




lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths
</P>


No use to argue about the past because there's no way we can check the old threads. But i did remember you misunderstanding me over and over and over again in those 100 page threads.</P>


Exactly. Save for a handful, no one every said he was the greatest. No one also said he was terrible either. Post 2007-2008, everyone said top 10 at least - including me. I just said that if I were to start a team from scratch and I had to pick a QB, Eli might not be in the top 15. I'd probably take Stafford over him.</P>


My posts were full of the above like points. After a while people just summed it up as, "you think Eli is the 15th best in the league. YOu think stafford is better then Eli". Hardly the case. And I remember you doing a similar thing - but maybe on a different topic.</P>


I also remember talking about Ben vs Eli a ton. People asked me why I preferred Ben over Eli. And I said, Ben was accurate, consistent, and efficient. And THAT's when we started talking about accuracy. I also said over and over again that everything is relative - especially when I made statements like Eli was inaccurate. And, I really don't want to explain what relative means again.</P>


I'll tell you when you admitted that accuracy wasn't that big a deal in your book and how it happened. I said something like such: "Most NFL QBs can hit their WRs in the hands when given time. You consider a ball thrown that hits a WR in the hands an accurate throw. Thus, most NFL QBs are accurate. If most NFL QBs are accurate, then accuracy isn't that important a stat." Your response was: "I guess." and then some unrelated stuff.</P>


</P>


Edit for semantics.</P>


</P>


Bump for mmb.</P>


Talking about Eli is just too fun. I need some means to burn off my nervous energy before Sunday.</P>




didn't i respond to that already? If i dind't, ur gonna have to wait cuz I typed something long out for it and i don't feel like doing it again. Im too busy gathering myself from the Simms DISSED Eli thread
</P>


oh.that thread was rediculous but i don't have energy for another one.Besides, I'm having more fun watching you defend yourselves against the Eli cheering section. </P>

MattMeyerBud
02-03-2012, 10:32 AM
This should be interesting. I'm guessing people will say that Toomer is a liar and he's just jealous of the success our young WRs are having. It's making him look bad. Should I gloat now or gloat later?</p>


Edit: And yes, I'm having fun with this.</p>




not sure what would make u gloat?

Nobody said earlier that eli had pinpoint precision. We all agree hes gotten better year in and year out...

but being "acrobats" doesn't take away from the fact that they were balls that had to be caught. Making the play is what is important
</p>


Oh? Weren't you the one that said, Eli was accurate because he hits the WRs in the hands? You even admitted that accuracy in your book wasn't very important since for the most part most NFL calibre QBs when given time can hit the WRs in the hands.</p>


Accuracy was one of the few points that were often discussed when i made the simple statement over and over - Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient.</p>




not only are you getting specific arguments confused, but also timelines.

First off - the argument about hitting the ball in the hands was the argument that if it hits the WR in the hands the play should be made. It mean the QB got the ball there and its now on the WR to do what he has to do.

I say that the way that accuracy was depicted by many of the posters on here was inaccurate. First off, these tight spaces that eli has been dropping the ball in this year? Its been happening for the past 3-4 years and i've been pointing it out.

Also Eli was being heavily compared to a guy like Kurt Warner at the time and I remember making the point that Warner wasn't AS accurate as the stats would show. He had WRs that went up and got the ball out over a crowd of people. It made him look better obviously.

Also the argument that Eli wasn't on the same page with alot of our WRs due to injuries, changes, and just having new relationships with them. Alot of your "inaccuracy" debates in which you would put all the blame on Eli , you would have no way of knowing if the receiver ran the right route. Our passing offense is HEAVILY based on the two spots being on the same page.

Regardless, as per your article, Toomer was referring to Eli's earlier years. You signed up for these boards in 07, so if we had this debates it would of been in 07-08. Toomer was gone by end of 08 no?

you were applying points for 04-05-06. Sorry but in that moment you were wrong and keeping a young QBs woes from early years and dragging it out, not letting it go, and trying to apply it to what his current play was at that time.

My main argument for that time was that Eli was ACCURATE enough. And my arguments remain consistant and can even be applied to Eli's play this year in which I have debated countless hours with Moorehead about.

Do I think Eli has improved this year? yes. Do I think hes gotten better every year? yes. Do I think the jump of improvement that most people think happened is true? NO!

Eli is playing better and the stats show it, right? Well I say Eli's performance this year can be pinpointed to about 10 plays last year to 10 plays this year.

Take out last years drops, tipped balls for picks, hell even make them receptions to this year where we got the luck that tipped balls WERENT picked and he had WRs make crazy plays for him. All of a sudden everybody thinks Eli is some accurate QB.

Sorry, like I said before while Eli has def had his biggest leap of improvement from year to year the biggest reason for his success isn't that, its having solid WRs stay healthy that he can be on the same page with, not drop balls, and actual MAKE PLAYS.

Thats the biggest difference maker in Eli's success
</p>



</p>



I was here since 05 I think. My first user name was gumby74. I got banned for good because I made an inappropriate comment about religion. lol.</p>


If you remember MY definition of accuracy - when a WRs is open (say a couple steps) the ability to make the easy throw and hit the WR between the numbers and in stride. I say nothing about making difficult throws. Only the basics. And yes, I said many times Eli makes the difficult throw much better then the likes of his counter parts. However, it's his easy misses that I always harped in. In this case, Warner was extremely accurate. Personally, I don't think he was that great a passer. He just put the ball where his WRs could run with it.</p>


Eli was a different animal this year. His YPA is up, which is indicative of him hitting his WRs in stride. Very rarely was I screaming at the TV because he misses a wide open WR with 3 steps behind the DB. More rarely do the WRs need to spin in the air to make the catch. All the tipped passes last year? Most of those were TERRIBLE throws. Terrible throws lead to higher % of bad things to happen - luck or not. You can't just throw themaside and call it bad luck. Had they been good throws, yes. They weren't. He has done that less this year. From a guy that watches Ben every week and Eli every week, Eli is much different this year than in years past. Every QB misses the easy ones, but Eli missed them much more then Ben did. Which drove me nuts, because Eli is much more a talented passer in terms of making the difficult throw then Ben is.</p>


I never put the blame soley on him. I put the blame on both parties. The QB for making a terrible throw. And the WR for not making a catch that hit him on the hands. The problem was that you were faulting the WR and only the WR.</p>


Any NFL calibre QB is accurate ENOUGH given time. If you are saying hitting the hands is ENOUGH, then you really are downplaying accuracy. Being accurate is playing the %'s. Making a throw that hits between the numbers instead of making the WR reach, has a higher % rate. Good QBs make things as easy as possible for the WR. When saying Eli is inaccurate though, we aren't comparing him to Jason Cambell, but his peers - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. They hit the easy ones more often then not. And that's why their numbers are inflated.</p>




well i was using 07 to reference when we had our debates.

Warner wasn't extremely accurate, thats my point. In all years of his success he had he either had Torry Holt &amp; Isaac Bruce or Larry Fitzgerald &amp; Anquon Boldin. He was an accurate QB, but it was over exaggerated because he could throw a ball up in double and triple coverage and fitz would come down with it.

Aikman said it best (one of the few times i'll ever quote Aikman), it was right after the big catch Cruz had vs the Seahawks where he tipped it and ran for an 80 yard TD or whatever it was. Aikman said it perfect, he said that ball you'll have people praising Eli for "putting it up to where he can get it", but if that ball is incomplete or picked off (which was a realistic possibility on that throw) everybody would be killing Eli and asking what was he thinking

The truth is this, people aren't judging Eli and haven't been judging Eli on his PLAY they've been going off of RESULTS and they aren't accurate. My view on the play is that Eli DID put it up for his WR to make a play, but it should be no notch in his belt for his accuracy. I mean HE didn't make that play, Cruz did but Eli. I just think most people don't know what they are looking at and make their judgements on whatever the final play was.

And to your argument about leading a player to have success after the catch, I remember having debates with you to where it wasn't possible. That Eli had fit the ball in a tight window to GET it to the WR. Like I said, the timeline of when u and I were having our arguments doesn't coincide with the timeline that Toomer was speaking about. So you shouldn't take this quote and relish in it because it isn't applicable to what you were saying.

I'm sorry, but Eli's YPA is up becuase his receivers have been breaking plays. We have GAME breakers at the WR position.
</p>


Warner was extremely accurate when he was with the Rams. Everytime he threw the ball, his WRs were inexplicably wide open. Brees same deal.</p>


I'll say it again, I didn't crucify Eli for making the difficult throw or even putting the ball where only his WRs can get it. It's the easy throw I'm always harping on. Our difference I guess is when it comes to accuracy our benchmarks are different. You look at the harder throws and you judge that. I take theeasier throws and I judge that. </p>


From what I saw, Eli had accuracy issues up until this year. Again, I'm not harping on the tough throw in small windows. I'm talking about the painfully easy ones a QB of his calibre should be making. It's not just in 2007. He had issues well after also. His tipped passes are an example. I'm trying to think of some other ones in the past where he had a streaking Nicks, Manningham, or Burresswide open but my memory doesn't go back that far. </p>


This year, he's been hitting everything in stride and letting people run.</p>





your pretty flaky in memory of your own debates. As the years went on u let up more and more, but im sorry you DEF use to crucify Eli.</p>



</p>


And no - u weren't only harping on the "Easy" throws. And from my memory alot "Easy" throws that you thougth were easy actually weren't "easy" throws.</p>



</p>


If u JUST harped on those EASY ones, even in his worst moments were not enough of a sample size that would of got u labeled as an Eli hater. You define revisionist history lol

and while he is getting players in stride MORE and doing better, its not been everything. As i've said before, your not actually watching the play your going off of results of the play
</p>


Oh I'm not denying that. Pre 2008, I definitely crucified Eli. He was arguably above average with a knack for bringing a team from behind.</p>


Dude. I'll guarantee you that I was always talking about the easy throws. I'll bet you .... uhm .. my leftover dr. pepper 10 on my desk. I know because I've repeated it until I'm blue in the face.</p>


And of course he's doing other things much better and not just accuracy ie decision making etc. But in the context of this discussion. It's accuracy that I've always been harping on.</p>


lol. i got labeled an Eli hater because I jumped into every thread that used stats to backup a rediculous claim on how he was the most awesomeness qb thrower ever. I did nothing but point out how wrong the usage of numbers was. I also jumped into every thread on how Eli was better then say, Ben - using stats.</p>


Jump into enough and people are going to start labeling you. Funny thing is that it was never Eli that I had an issue with, it was his cheering section.</p>




lol not for nothing, but the way u paraphrased and took out of context my arguments with you, tells me that u don't really remember everything clearly that u use to say lol

Threads like that never really happened. Nobody ever said he was the greatest. You were a legit hater, lets speak truths
</p>


No use to argue about the past because there's no way we can check the old threads. But i did remember you misunderstanding me over and over and over again in those 100 page threads.</p>


Exactly. Save for a handful, no one every said he was the greatest. No one also said he was terrible either. Post 2007-2008, everyone said top 10 at least - including me. I just said that if I were to start a team from scratch and I had to pick a QB, Eli might not be in the top 15. I'd probably take Stafford over him.</p>


My posts were full of the above like points. After a while people just summed it up as, "you think Eli is the 15th best in the league. YOu think stafford is better then Eli". Hardly the case. And I remember you doing a similar thing - but maybe on a different topic.</p>


I also remember talking about Ben vs Eli a ton. People asked me why I preferred Ben over Eli. And I said, Ben was accurate, consistent, and efficient. And THAT's when we started talking about accuracy. I also said over and over again that everything is relative - especially when I made statements like Eli was inaccurate. And, I really don't want to explain what relative means again.</p>


I'll tell you when you admitted that accuracy wasn't that big a deal in your book and how it happened. I said something like such: "Most NFL QBs can hit their WRs in the hands when given time. You consider a ball thrown that hits a WR in the hands an accurate throw. Thus, most NFL QBs are accurate. If most NFL QBs are accurate, then accuracy isn't that important a stat." Your response was: "I guess." and then some unrelated stuff.</p>


</p>


Edit for semantics.</p>


</p>


Bump for mmb.</p>


Talking about Eli is just too fun. I need some means to burn off my nervous energy before Sunday.</p>




didn't i respond to that already? If i dind't, ur gonna have to wait cuz I typed something long out for it and i don't feel like doing it again. Im too busy gathering myself from the Simms DISSED Eli thread
</p>


oh.that thread was rediculous but i don't have energy for another one.Besides, I'm having more fun watching you defend yourselves against the Eli cheering section. </p>

thats jus thte opposite of what u use to be. I am still in the eli cheering section but they are the radicals...

Voldamort
02-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Except for Toomer,the rest of the widouts on that team couldn't run a pattern,they never kept running would run and stop.Dt,Plex and Smith would catch it and fall down no after the catch guy's like now!

bflo23
02-03-2012, 11:54 AM
When compared to his peers (Ben, Rivers) , anytime a QB needs 600-800 more attempts to have the same number of career yards and TDs, I'd say that's pretty inefficient. That's pretty telling right there.</p>

Clueless! Same number of career yards and TDs?! Eli has 3,294 more passing yards than Rivers and 1,000 more passing yards than Big Ben............. Eli has 22 more TD passes than Rivers and 20 more TD passes than Big Ben.

Go work on your math. If Eli ruins Brady's legacy and beat him twice in the super bowl, you are going to be in full panic mode. Nice try, Patriots troll.

Save your appetite for New England Crow Chowder after the Super Bowl. LOL!

DragonSoul
02-03-2012, 03:58 PM
This year I do think Eli is Elite, and Ben is not (he is also a tough qb, but some say he/they make his injuries seem worse then they are). Before this year I felt Eli was a top tier QB. Meaning Stat wise he was just under the top 3-5, but Clutch factor I felt he was with them if not better and if it was not for those 25 ints, people would have been discussing it last year it would have been a different discussion. Ben I felt was around Eli levels but below him in standing as a qb, for many reasons. As I have touched based in the last few threads. From the team he had initially (tops in most rankings like defense, run game, oline), what the team asked of him (not to lose, they even said he was more of a manager earlier in his career). Crappy division he was in, and how did he do in all 3 SBS? Crappy as I have pointed out and you ignored as well. Btw you want to talk about how he got into the SB 3 times, but not how he performed in them.</P>


You have points.* Facts are facts.* So answer this question now.* Why in your opinion why does Eli sit above Ben?</P>


What I'm getting at is for all the reasons you want to provide for Eli being top tier and better then Ben, you don't give nearly the same amount of for lack of a better term, "excuse room" for Ben.* </P>


Example:* You keep saying he stunk in his SB Victories.* He certainly did not play lights out.* So, you discredit Ben for his SB.* Yet you choose to neglect that he DID play lights out during the entire regular season AND the playoffs.* At the same token, you give full credit to Eli in 2007.* Yet, his entire regular season was arguably mediocre.* He only picked it up in the post season - a whopping total of 4 games.* Please don't tell you don't have a double standard here.</P>I have listed the reason why.

I went through it in some of these threads, and in the past. Should have kept those arguments for instances like this.

It is not a double standard. In the beginning of his career he took his shots from a game manager point of view, because he had the ability to rely on the defense and offense.

Eli on the other hand, was starting to play better in 07, and had some up and down games, but most guys who judge guys judge guys by making players around them better, and most importantly show up in big games. Do SB and playoffs count for everything, no of course not but they carry more weight and rightfully so, as the reason you play the game is to win it all, and thats the SB and how you play in those big games.

Maybe I will look into the numbers again, if I have time to burn...After Elis rookie year he had only one season that he finished 8-8 and that was in 09.

speedman
02-03-2012, 04:39 PM
Eli was inaccurate, inconsistent, and inefficient. Not so fast the 07 year was the SB year so how could he be inefficient??????lol anyone who even implies this is a clown. Eli was always an accurate QB. He threw INT just like every QB in the NFL. But we just tend to analyze things to an extreme where one bad pass a game can turn a QB into a horrible inaccurate one.</P>


When compared to his peers (Ben, Rivers) , anytime a QB needs 600-800 more attempts to have the same number of career yards and TDs, I'd say that's pretty inefficient. That's pretty telling right there.</P>So would you rather have Ben or Rivers over Elias the QB of the Giants?

gmen0820
02-03-2012, 04:42 PM
After Elis rookie year he had only one season that he finished 8-8 and that was in 09.And 06.

bflo23
02-03-2012, 04:42 PM
So would you rather have Ben or Rivers over Elias the QB of the Giants?

Don't get him started. He said that Eli didn't belong in the top 100 NFL players for 2011. Look at his signature where he is mocking Eli for not making the top 100 NFL players list.

DragonSoul
02-03-2012, 04:52 PM
After Elis rookie year he had only one season that he finished 8-8 and that was in 09.And 06.I stand corrected. I was combing the record and playoff appearances.

But you are correct, in 06 and 09.

lawl
02-03-2012, 07:04 PM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

Did you watch Eli in 2010? How can you say INTs off the facemask is Eli's fault? If you did, you would have noticed many passes that hit receivers dead in the hands where Eli actually wanted the ball and that should have been easy catch but it bounced off and into defender's hands. I remember balls bouncing off some their helmets to defenders. How is it that it is Eli's fault for the INTs like that when that happens? He had 9 INTs that weren't his fault.... The other 16 INTs were Eli's fault. Watch the video link. You will rethink that "all but one was Eli's fault". Listen to the announcers rip on the receivers.

Receiver fault: Tipped INT #1 (a foot away from manningham's helmet), Tipped #2 (hit bradshaw in face mask), Tipped INT #3, Tipped INT #5 (Nicks has to make that catch), Tipped INT #10 (Good spot but Nicks botched it), Bad route #12 INT (Nicks runs a slant and just stops), #15 INT, Tipped #24 (off chest of Bradshaw), #25 (OFF THE FACEMASK)

Eli fault: #4 INT, #6 INT, #7 INT, #8 INT, Tipped #9 INT (bad throw... not receiver fault), #11 INT, #13 INT, #14 INT, #16 INT, #17 INT, #18 INT, #19 INT, #20 INT, #21 INT, #22 INT, #23 INT
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc"><font color="#0000FF" size="4">25 INTs from 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc</font></a>


Again. I didn't say that they were eli's fault. I simply said he made a bad throw. When a guy is running a drag and the ball is behind him slowing his momentum and limiting his YAC ability, it's not a good throw. Eli, along with every QB in the league tries to make it so the WR has the best possible chance of creating something after he catches it, when the ball is put in a spot where the QB doesn't mean for it to go it is by definition a mistake.

Gianthunter
02-03-2012, 07:13 PM
Goody I got more popcorn.[:P]

bflo23
02-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

Did you watch Eli in 2010? How can you say INTs off the facemask is Eli's fault? If you did, you would have noticed many passes that hit receivers dead in the hands where Eli actually wanted the ball and that should have been easy catch but it bounced off and into defender's hands. I remember balls bouncing off some their helmets to defenders. How is it that it is Eli's fault for the INTs like that when that happens? He had 9 INTs that weren't his fault.... The other 16 INTs were Eli's fault. Watch the video link. You will rethink that "all but one was Eli's fault". Listen to the announcers rip on the receivers.

Receiver fault: Tipped INT #1 (a foot away from manningham's helmet), Tipped #2 (hit bradshaw in face mask), Tipped INT #3, Tipped INT #5 (Nicks has to make that catch), Tipped INT #10 (Good spot but Nicks botched it), Bad route #12 INT (Nicks runs a slant and just stops), #15 INT, Tipped #24 (off chest of Bradshaw), #25 (OFF THE FACEMASK)

Eli fault: #4 INT, #6 INT, #7 INT, #8 INT, Tipped #9 INT (bad throw... not receiver fault), #11 INT, #13 INT, #14 INT, #16 INT, #17 INT, #18 INT, #19 INT, #20 INT, #21 INT, #22 INT, #23 INT
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc"><font color="#0000FF" size="4">25 INTs from 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc</font></a>


Again. I didn't say that they were eli's fault. I simply said he made a bad throw. When a guy is running a drag and the ball is behind him slowing his momentum and limiting his YAC ability, it's not a good throw. Eli, along with every QB in the league tries to make it so the WR has the best possible chance of creating something after he catches it, when the ball is put in a spot where the QB doesn't mean for it to go it is by definition a mistake.

This is what you exactly said <font size="5">"On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit
off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to
go, ie it was a bad pass."</font>....... And then you said "You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification,
because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he
was a root cause of those ints."... I still don't understand how a football that hit a receiver in the face mask is considered a "bad throw".

You clearly put the blame on Eli with "all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season". Just admit it. And then you saw the youtube video and changed your mind as you realized that the receivers were at fault for many of those ints..... Don't talk about yac when you were talking about interceptions in your earlier posts.

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:07 PM
Just something that I'll reiterate that I've sId countless times. A QB AND WR can make a bad play on the same play. On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to go, ie it was a bad pass. On that same note any ball that hits an NFL players' hands should be caught, thus both players made a mistake on the same play. It's just that simple.

You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification, because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he was a root cause of those ints. get over it, he's playing awesome now, theres no reason to lie to yourselves about last year.

Did you watch Eli in 2010? How can you say INTs off the facemask is Eli's fault? If you did, you would have noticed many passes that hit receivers dead in the hands where Eli actually wanted the ball and that should have been easy catch but it bounced off and into defender's hands. I remember balls bouncing off some their helmets to defenders. How is it that it is Eli's fault for the INTs like that when that happens? He had 9 INTs that weren't his fault.... The other 16 INTs were Eli's fault. Watch the video link. You will rethink that "all but one was Eli's fault". Listen to the announcers rip on the receivers.

Receiver fault: Tipped INT #1 (a foot away from manningham's helmet), Tipped #2 (hit bradshaw in face mask), Tipped INT #3, Tipped INT #5 (Nicks has to make that catch), Tipped INT #10 (Good spot but Nicks botched it), Bad route #12 INT (Nicks runs a slant and just stops), #15 INT, Tipped #24 (off chest of Bradshaw), #25 (OFF THE FACEMASK)

Eli fault: #4 INT, #6 INT, #7 INT, #8 INT, Tipped #9 INT (bad throw... not receiver fault), #11 INT, #13 INT, #14 INT, #16 INT, #17 INT, #18 INT, #19 INT, #20 INT, #21 INT, #22 INT, #23 INT
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc"><font color="#0000FF" size="4">25 INTs from 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUsUoMIHZc</font></a>


Again. I didn't say that they were eli's fault. I simply said he made a bad throw. When a guy is running a drag and the ball is behind him slowing his momentum and limiting his YAC ability, it's not a good throw. Eli, along with every QB in the league tries to make it so the WR has the best possible chance of creating something after he catches it, when the ball is put in a spot where the QB doesn't mean for it to go it is by definition a mistake.

This is what you exactly said <font size="5">"On all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season that hit
off the WRs hands were thrown in a place that Eli didn't mean for it to
go, ie it was a bad pass."</font>.......* And then you said "You cannot use "oh if it wasn't for those ints!!" as a justification,
because They did indeed happen and because he made bad throws on them he
was a root cause of those ints."... I still don't understand how a football that hit a receiver in the face mask is considered a "bad throw".

You clearly put the blame on Eli with "all but one of those tipped pass ints from the '10 season". Just admit it. And then you saw the youtube video and changed your mind as you realized that the receivers were at fault for many of those ints..... Don't talk about yac when you were talking about interceptions in your earlier posts.

I saw the YouTube video months ago.

All but one was a bad throw. And every single one of those likewise was a bad play by the receiver.

bflo23
02-03-2012, 08:25 PM
I saw the YouTube video months ago.

All but one was a bad throw. And every single one of those likewise was a bad play by the receiver.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Most ridiculous statement ever. "All but one"

INT #1.... Tell me how a 20 yard route where Nicks has stopped and the ball hit him in the face mask is Eli's fault. Explain..... Listen to Tony Siragusa who even says "That ball was exactly where it was suppose to be."

INT #2.... Another ball that hits bradshaw in the face mask. Explain. NFL players aren't expected to make catches with footballs to the facemask?! Footballs in the receiver's facemasks are Eli's interception fault.

I think Eli could bomb a 50 yard pass into WR face mask in stride and you would say "Bad throw. It should have hit him in the #s". I could go on and on. You really need to watch that youtube video.

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:25 PM
I was wrong. The first bradshaw tip int and the last one off manningham were good throws. The rest, weren't.

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:27 PM
I saw the YouTube video months ago. All but one was a bad throw. And every single one of those likewise was a bad play by the receiver.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Most ridiculous statement ever. "All but one"

INT #1.... Tell me how a 20 yard route where Nicks has stopped and the ball hit him in the face mask is Eli's fault. Explain..... Listen to Tony Siragusa who even says "That ball was exactly where it was suppose to be."

INT #2.... Another ball that hits bradshaw in the face mask. Explain. NFL players aren't expected to make catches with footballs to the facemask?! Footballs in the receiver's facemasks are Eli's interception fault.

I think Eli could bomb a 50 yard pass into WR face mask in stride and you would say "Bad throw. It should have hit him in the #s". I could go on and on. You really need to watch that youtube video.


</P>


Nicks is jumping in the air reaching behind himself to try and catch the ball....do you know what a facemask is?</P>

bflo23
02-03-2012, 08:32 PM
I was wrong. The first bradshaw tip int and the last one off manningham were good throws. The rest, weren't.

So all those other footballs off the helmet are Eli's fault?.... These are professional football players. I can make those catches easily so I think the Giant receivers should be able to make those catches. Just admit you were way wrong and changed your mind when I showed you the proof.

giantsfan420
02-03-2012, 08:33 PM
I was wrong. The first bradshaw tip int and the last one off manningham were good throws. The rest, weren't.

eh, we're walking a fine line.
1-thats ur subjective opinion.
2-how do you know some of those passes weren't where the ball was supposed to be placed but the wr ran a few yards short or long on the routes in practice?
3-windows in the nfl can be exceptionally small on a ton of passes. the dallas cowboys game in dallas, the first two ints are perfect examples of that. the passes weren't on the numbers, but both went through the wr's hands, like inbetween both hands, and deflected up for easy ints.

i'm not going to say ur premise that a bad play can occur by both the qb and wr on the same play is wrong, but i absolutely can say with certainty that their was a ton of bad luck, and honestly, bad play by the wr's on several of those ints.

lets just focus on the cowboys @ dallas game. who do u think those two ints fall on? we all know eli is very like, (edit)not physically loud if that makes sense i can't think of the word, but on those ints u can clearly see eli going huh?wtf???

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:40 PM
I was wrong. The first bradshaw tip int and the last one off manningham were good throws. The rest, weren't.

So all those other footballs off the helmet are Eli's fault?.... These are professional football players. I can make those catches easily so I think the Giant receivers should be able to make those catches. Just admit you were way wrong and changed your mind when I showed you the proof.
</P>


No other footballs go off the helmet.</P>


I saw this video long ago,and had this very same argument many a time. I just remembered incorrectly that it was1 good throws that were tip ints instead of it actually been 2.</P>


</P>

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:49 PM
I was wrong. The first bradshaw tip int and the last one off manningham were good throws. The rest, weren't. eh, we're walking a fine line. 1-thats ur subjective opinion. 2-how do you know some of those passes weren't where the ball was supposed to be placed but the wr ran a few yards short or long on the routes in practice? 3-windows in the nfl can be exceptionally small on a ton of passes. the dallas cowboys game in dallas, the first two ints are perfect examples of that. the passes weren't on the numbers, but both went through the wr's hands, like inbetween both hands, and deflected up for easy ints. i'm not going to say ur premise that a bad play can occur by both the qb and wr on the same play is wrong, but i absolutely can say with certainty that their was a ton of bad luck, and honestly, bad play by the wr's on several of those ints. lets just focus on the cowboys @ dallas game. who do u think those two ints fall on? we all know eli is very like, (edit)not physically loud if that makes sense i can't think of the word, but on those ints u can clearly see eli going huh?wtf???</P>


The only real argument that I've made against myself (I argue the ins and outs of something before I establish my opinion) was essentially the small window point that you bring up. That first INT that was behind and high intended for Nicks (it absolutely doesnt hit his facemask like bflo insinuates lol) could have had to have been thrown behind him because a linebacker could have perhaps dropped into the throwing lane of where if Eli had thrown the ball out in front of Nicks the ball could have been intercepted or defensed by the LBer about 5-10 yards before the ball even would have arrived to Nicks.</P>


The only reason that argument popped in my head was a recent game(this year sometime) where they showed a camera angle of Eli throwing it exactly like that and Aikman was like look Eli had to put it this way because the Linebacker had too much depth in his drop for Eli to put the ball out in front.</P>


</P>


As for your second point. Virtually all of the tip ints of '10 are where the WR has been in motion and not a bang bang type timing route, if you know what I mean. </P>


Barden runs a hook and he has to jump and outstretch hisarms straight upwards. I guarantee you Eli doesn't think he threw a good pass there.</P>


My entire thought process comes from a quote from Joe Montan where he said that Bill Walsh would reem him if the ball wasn't in the right spot so that the WR can make a play after catching it. </P>

bflo23
02-03-2012, 08:50 PM
Lawl= 2 receiver fault

Voldamort= 11 receiver fault
bflo23= 9 receiver fault
giantsfan420= 9 receiver fault

Any relation between Lawl and Gumby?

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:53 PM
It may sound childish, but I QB once a week for a flag football team and whenever I'm even slightly off on a throw and the guy tries to go up and get it and drops it I always put the blame on myself because I know it should have been a better throw. I'm just some random dude playing in a meaningless adult flag football league and I want those throws to be better, I'm sure the pros are much more intense than that.

lawl
02-03-2012, 08:55 PM
Lawl= 2 receiver fault

Voldamort= 11 receiver fault
bflo23= 9 receiver fault
giantsfan420= 9 receiver fault

Any relation between Lawl and Gumby?
</P>


How many times do I have to tell you that I don't think its just one player's fault?</P>


Hopefully the third times the charm.</P>

giantsfan420
02-03-2012, 09:40 PM
It may sound childish, but I QB once a week for a flag football team and whenever I'm even slightly off on a throw and the guy tries to go up and get it and drops it I always put the blame on myself because I know it should have been a better throw. I'm just some random dude playing in a meaningless adult flag football league and I want those throws to be better, I'm sure the pros are much more intense than that.

lmfao. no offense, ur flag football league has absolutely no relevance. of course eli would always go "man i wish i could rethrow that" after an int. doesn't mean its his fault.

its the nfl. the margin of error in flag football is the grand canyon, margin of error in the nfl is an ants butt hole. dunno if that helps or hurts any one particular stance, just saying that in the nfl, i'm pretty sure the guy going up for the ball and getting both hands on it and it drops or gets int, the wr is gonna feel just as ****ty as the qb.

lawl
02-03-2012, 09:48 PM
It may sound childish, but I QB once a week for a flag football team and whenever I'm even slightly off on a throw and the guy tries to go up and get it and drops it I always put the blame on myself because I know it should have been a better throw. I'm just some random dude playing in a meaningless adult flag football league and I want those throws to be better, I'm sure the pros are much more intense than that. lmfao. no offense, ur flag football league has absolutely no relevance. of course eli would always go "man i wish i could rethrow that" after an int. doesn't mean its his fault. its the nfl. the margin of error in flag football is the grand canyon, margin of error in the nfl is an ants butt hole. dunno if that helps or hurts any one particular stance, just saying that in the nfl, i'm pretty sure the guy going up for the ball and getting both hands on it and it drops or gets int, the wr is gonna feel just as ****ty as the qb.</P>


I never have blamed Eli for the tipped Ints. I just said they were a bad throw. Which you just admitted that you think Eli thinks thatas well. </P>


Also, flag football fields have just as many people in coverage, every throw is on the run, and the field is half the size. So suck it [;)]</P>