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View Full Version : Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener



Antwuan
02-13-2012, 02:31 PM
What if both players are on the board @ 32? Who do you think the Giants will select?

Also who do you think is a better overall TE?

Spizi
02-13-2012, 03:06 PM
idk but as long as we pick one of them I'll be happy.

Fleener is considered the better prospect by a lot of people now so I would take him. He has the height advantage, is extremely polished, and he has a lot of room to bulk up. Allen on the other hand is shorter and his frame looks very close to maxed out if not maxed out already.

Both are very good athletes but I'll have to wait and see them at the combine. I like Fleeners average per catch but he was also in a more vertical, pro style offense with Jesus at QB. Allen looks to have run a lot of short routes in the flat so that probably affected his ypc.

Raptor22
02-13-2012, 03:31 PM
What if both players are on the board @ 32? Who do you think the Giants will select?

Also who do you think is a better overall TE?

It really depends on what the rest of the board looks like...

If the two are the best two players left on the board, I think Allen is the more pro-ready, but Fleener's height/weight/speed + upside looks more like a Giants' draft pick.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Neverend
02-13-2012, 03:52 PM
I keep going back and forth on this but I'm going with Fleener. He's the more polished of the two which the giants value in their TEs a lot. Allen is a lot more inconsistent than Fleener

I'd have to disagree with Raptor though, I think Fleener is more of the finished product (aside from gaining more strength) whereas Allen still has more developing to do

bLuereverie
02-13-2012, 04:20 PM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants.

BlueSanta
02-13-2012, 05:43 PM
idk but as long as we pick one of them I'll be happy.

Fleener is considered the better prospect by a lot of people now so I would take him. He has the height advantage, is extremely polished, and he has a lot of room to bulk up. Allen on the other hand is shorter and his frame looks very close to maxed out if not maxed out already.

Both are very good athletes but I'll have to wait and see them at the combine. I like Fleeners average per catch but he was also in a more vertical, pro style offense with Jesus at QB. Allen looks to have run a lot of short routes in the flat so that probably affected his ypc.

I think YPC is a poor measurement in this case because as you said, it is more an indication of the team they played for rather than what they do best.

Allen's college team, Clemson, didnt ask him to run deeper routes quite as often because they had perhaps the nations best deep threat in Sammy Watkins for that. Instead, they would use Watkins to run off defenders and slip Allen underneath. Although he showed he has the ability to do either when needed. I like Allen as a hot reciever on blitzes. He also rarely double catches
it showing very nice soft hands. He catches very well in traffic too
and used his body to block out defenders exceptionally. Even though
Allen is not as tall as Fleener, I like his ability as a red zone target
because of his "rebounder" type mentality to go up and get it with
people draped on him. Fleener isnt a slouch at this, I just saw more of
it from Allen.

Conversely, Standford used a more pro style system where they would run, run, play-action pass slipping the TE behind the LBs or up the seam. Fleener was, in my opinion, the most skilled target of all the Standford recievers. Despite having less receptions that Dwayne Allen in 2011, Coby was the 2nd leading reciever on his team compared to the 3rd for Allen and Clemson. He was used at a "tight to the line" blocker far more often that allen
and I think that translates well for what we do here. He may not yet be a
polished blocker yet, but the fact that he has more experience with his
hand in the dirt is a bonus. Just as we got to see Allen more as a
reciever for Clemson we got to see Fleener used more as a Blocker than
Dwayne. His ability to get upfield, catching the over the shoulder
throw makes him a big play threat. He also showed nice soft hands,
rarely double catching it. That is an important feature in a TE. The
guys going ove the middle need to catch it cleanly on the 1st attempt,
otherwise it leads to INTs.

Both were very good in their respective roles and have things to like about them.




I have a very hard time deciding which of these 2 players I like more for us based on his film. I think it will come down to the smallest things.

Things like:
- measurables at the combine(hand size, fitness level, etc).

- Do they come in under their listed height? Coby is likely fine here, but if Dwayne comes in under his listed height of 6'4 it could hurt him, there are some rumors to that extent. Coby on the other hand may have some body type concern rumors. How strong are his legs? He appears to have speed but does he yet have the leg strength to maintain and drive block as needed in the NFL.

- Which guy will impress in interviews. This stuff is never known by fans and it is a huge factor, particular for the NYG as we do care about player character. Not just "will the guy avoid off the field trouble" but " will this guy's personality type work with this team, this city, and this media."

If Reese chooses 1 of these players over the other, I have complete faith in his choice. The fact is, he has access to these players far and above anything I could possibly know. Medical examinations by team docs, personality disorders....etc. I can watch a film and say "wow that guy looks like a great player" but he might also might have the personality traits of a proud card carrying NAMBLA member and I would never know by watching his game film.

juice33s
02-13-2012, 05:52 PM
Fleener.....He has the superior size, speed, athleticism combination and a frame that appears to still have some room for growth.

Neverend
02-13-2012, 06:31 PM
He catches very well in traffic too
and used his body to block out defenders exceptionally. Even though
Allen is not as tall as Fleener, I like his ability as a red zone target
because of his "rebounder" type mentality to go up and get it with
people draped on him. Fleener isnt a slouch at this, I just saw more of
it from Allen.

Strongly agree with this and is a point I often bring up with allen vs fleener debates around here. If theres any advantage allen has over fleener, its definitely his ball contorting skills.

rainierjef
02-13-2012, 08:03 PM
is it me or is fleener a better run blocker than allen?

i think he is i see him getting up field after blocking a lineman to make a block on a corner or LB

Raptor22
02-13-2012, 09:23 PM
I'd have to disagree with Raptor though, I think Fleener is more of the finished product (aside from gaining more strength) whereas Allen still has more developing to do

What I meant was that Fleener still has to grow into his body, and can stand refinement in his technique (particularly blocking). Both now, and further on as he gains strength/mass. As he adds mass his role/game might change, or expand, as well he'll have to get used to being bigger.

I think Allen is more set. He could use polish in a pro system, but he doesn't need the physical development (and have to get used to the additional mass as well).

As a pass catcher in a pro system, yeah I agree that Fleener is probably the more pro-ready, since he's been in a pro system with a pro coach.

Voldamort
02-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Jerry is drafting BAP that would be O-LINE

Voldamort
02-13-2012, 09:36 PM
What if both players are on the board @ 32? Who do you think the Giants will select?

Also who do you think is a better overall TE?

It really depends on what the rest of the board looks like...

If the two are the best two players left on the board, I think Allen is the more pro-ready, but Fleener's height/weight/speed + upside looks more like a Giants' draft pick.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.


gREATEST PICS EVER!

Neverend
02-13-2012, 10:57 PM
I'd have to disagree with Raptor though, I think Fleener is more of the finished product (aside from gaining more strength) whereas Allen still has more developing to do

What I meant was that Fleener still has to grow into his body, and can stand refinement in his technique (particularly blocking). Both now, and further on as he gains strength/mass. As he adds mass his role/game might change, or expand, as well he'll have to get used to being bigger.

I think Allen is more set. He could use polish in a pro system, but he doesn't need the physical development (and have to get used to the additional mass as well).

As a pass catcher in a pro system, yeah I agree that Fleener is probably the more pro-ready, since he's been in a pro system with a pro coach.


Ah, then I'd have to agree with you. Fleener is more raw blocking (not by technique though imo) as they don't use him as an in-line TE very often.

Kruunch
02-14-2012, 10:38 AM
What if both players are on the board @ 32? Who do you think the Giants will select?

Also who do you think is a better overall TE?

I keep hearing Fleener's name pop up and he does sound more like the kind of TE the Giants would draft (big athletic speciman).

Spizi
02-14-2012, 11:36 AM
wrong thread whoops

giantman8493
02-14-2012, 11:40 AM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants. fleener is more like bekum than allan is.

Kruunch
02-14-2012, 03:13 PM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants. fleener is more like bekum than allan is.

They're both pass catching tight ends.

After watching tape on them both my feeling is that Coby Fleener might be the better choice in terms of play making TE translating into the NFL.

The current trend of successful TEs in the NFL are ex-basketball players of the 6-6+ variety which Fleener fits and Allen does not, Allen is more of the Atonio Gates (without the amazing speed and yes I know Gates played BBall) and Alge Crumpler mold.

Fleener is closer to the Gronkowski, Tony Gonzalez, Jimmy Graham style which I would love to see on the Giants.

And while you can add size to Fleener, you can't add height to Allen.

Both have good hands ... Fleener seems to have slightly better hands.

Allen has a bad habit of not seeing the sticks (consistantly comes up a yard short on 3rd down scenarios) which leads me to believe that Fleener is actually the better route runner.

I was an Allen fan, but the more I look at Fleener, the more I like him over Allen.

P.S. - Both can block, but neither are particular fearsome in that regard ... Fleener has the better frame for it imo, but Allen appears to have a better motor when blocking.

BlueSanta
02-14-2012, 05:25 PM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants. fleener is more like bekum than allan is.

They're both pass catching tight ends.

After watching tape on them both my feeling is that Coby Fleener might be the better choice in terms of play making TE translating into the NFL.

The current trend of successful TEs in the NFL are ex-basketball players of the 6-6+ variety which Fleener fits and Allen does not, Allen is more of the Atonio Gates (without the amazing speed and yes I know Gates played BBall) and Alge Crumpler mold.

Fleener is closer to the Gronkowski, Tony Gonzalez, Jimmy Graham style which I would love to see on the Giants.

And while you can add size to Fleener, you can't add height to Allen.

Both have good hands ... Fleener seems to have slightly better hands.

Allen has a bad habit of not seeing the sticks (consistantly comes up a yard short on 3rd down scenarios) which leads me to believe that Fleener is actually the better route runner.

I was an Allen fan, but the more I look at Fleener, the more I like him over Allen.

P.S. - Both can block, but neither are particular fearsome in that regard ... Fleener has the better frame for it imo, but Allen appears to have a better motor when blocking.

Most of that is fair to say, although I do not agree that Fleener has better hands. Both players show excellent hands, but Allen has shown a better ability to catch in traffic and has shown more of a rebounders mentality while Fleener shows more over-the-shoulder- downfield type receptions. Both players catch the ball with their hands, something I have always felt is more important for TEs than any other receiveing position.

Barring a bad combine or a bad measuables I do think Allen will be rated slightly higher then Fleener because his tape shows more versatility. He was used all over the field, as a split out, a slot reciever, a lead blocker and a tight end. Allen was asked to run a wider variety of routes than Fleener. However, I could also see the Giants liking Fleener because what he was asked to do in college very much resembles what we do here.

The 1 thing that hurts Fleener is he did struggle to get a free release at times. Much moreso than Allen who showed a quicker release(partly because he wasnt asked to line up tight to the line as much where a free release can be harder.) But, Allen did shows a quicker 1st step off the line.

bLuereverie
02-14-2012, 06:00 PM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants. fleener is more like bekum than allan is.

How is Fleener like Beckum?

Dwayne Allen was moved from Hback to Wingback to the outside whereas Fleener looks more capable of filling the in-line role.

cornerback30
02-14-2012, 06:10 PM
I would love to have Fleener's height but Allen has the better quickness that gives the opposing defenses big time trouble.Toss up for me both would help a ton,and with our cap issues and having both of our top 2 TEs go down with serious injuries,you know Reese will pick a TE pretty early maybe not 1st but most definitly afterwards.Just think if we can keep our trio together plus add a fast TE to go along with those guys plus the running game,the offense will be unstoppable.

Neverend
02-14-2012, 07:24 PM
And while you can add size to Fleener, you can't add height to Allen.


Good point there. Reminds me that Fleener has superior upside as a blocker than Allen. One thing that doesn't get talked about with Allen is that he doesn't have the longest arms and wingspan, Fleener has much more length. That serves as a huge advantage blocking as the shorter your length is - the easier it is for a defender to get into your chest and disengage.

Just another factor in the growing reasons why Coby Fleener is looking like a better prospect than Allen to me personally

bLuereverie
02-15-2012, 06:48 AM
From what I've seen, Allen looks to be the far greater blocker right now. Though most of that has been in motion. I'd like to see more of him at the point of attack.

Kruunch
02-15-2012, 10:16 AM
I like Allen, but I just see him utilized in the same manner as Beckum. He may very well be more prolific in that role, just not with the Giants. fleener is more like bekum than allan is.

They're both pass catching tight ends.

After watching tape on them both my feeling is that Coby Fleener might be the better choice in terms of play making TE translating into the NFL.

The current trend of successful TEs in the NFL are ex-basketball players of the 6-6+ variety which Fleener fits and Allen does not, Allen is more of the Atonio Gates (without the amazing speed and yes I know Gates played BBall) and Alge Crumpler mold.

Fleener is closer to the Gronkowski, Tony Gonzalez, Jimmy Graham style which I would love to see on the Giants.

And while you can add size to Fleener, you can't add height to Allen.

Both have good hands ... Fleener seems to have slightly better hands.

Allen has a bad habit of not seeing the sticks (consistantly comes up a yard short on 3rd down scenarios) which leads me to believe that Fleener is actually the better route runner.

I was an Allen fan, but the more I look at Fleener, the more I like him over Allen.

P.S. - Both can block, but neither are particular fearsome in that regard ... Fleener has the better frame for it imo, but Allen appears to have a better motor when blocking.

Most of that is fair to say, although I do not agree that Fleener has better hands. Both players show excellent hands, but Allen has shown a better ability to catch in traffic and has shown more of a rebounders mentality while Fleener shows more over-the-shoulder- downfield type receptions. Both players catch the ball with their hands, something I have always felt is more important for TEs than any other receiveing position.

Barring a bad combine or a bad measuables I do think Allen will be rated slightly higher then Fleener because his tape shows more versatility. He was used all over the field, as a split out, a slot reciever, a lead blocker and a tight end. Allen was asked to run a wider variety of routes than Fleener. However, I could also see the Giants liking Fleener because what he was asked to do in college very much resembles what we do here.

The 1 thing that hurts Fleener is he did struggle to get a free release at times. Much moreso than Allen who showed a quicker release(partly because he wasnt asked to line up tight to the line as much where a free release can be harder.)* But, Allen did shows a quicker 1st step off the line.



Good further break down and I agree with everything but the hands part.

Allen has dropped more balls then Fleener (a lot more). Now Allen was targeted more and the deliveries were late on a lot of occasions (allowing the DB to make a play on the ball) but as a TE, you need to screen out the DBs better than Allen does (imo).

I predict Allen only rates higher due to his 40 time which should be about .05-.10 ahead of Fleener at the Combine. If Fleener runs a faster 40, he'll rate higher (stupid method of rating but this is what it comes down to every year when the positions are close).

Spizi
02-15-2012, 10:17 AM
From what I've seen, Allen looks to be the far greater blocker right now. Though most of that has been in motion. I'd like to see more of him at the point of attack.

This. He opens a lot of holes for the RB from what I've seen.

I don't think Fleener will ever be a great blocker. He's just naturally lanky and has been in Harbaughs lifting program for ~ 4 years and is still built like a stick.

At the end of the day, the physical measurements don't mean anything, it's all about the play on the field. Both are great players, and one of them will be a Giant if I have anything to say about it! lol

Kruunch
02-15-2012, 10:22 AM
From what I've seen, Allen looks to be the far greater blocker right now. Though most of that has been in motion. I'd like to see more of him at the point of attack.

Allen definitely seems to have a better motor while blocking although his technique is fairly awful (he comes up high and over the top almost always and would get shucked in a heartbeat in the NFL).

I just get the feeling that Allen ends up not translating well at the NFL level and Fleener does.

Caveat: I am admittedly THE worst person judging college talent.

heavyhitter
02-15-2012, 08:12 PM
<font size="2">Close, but I go w/ Dwayne Allen. Best hands in the draft when it comes to TE's.</font>

Neverend
02-16-2012, 12:25 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Kruunch
02-16-2012, 12:28 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.

Kase-1
02-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay

Kruunch
02-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.

BlueSanta
02-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.

Game tape is king. But when you have 2 guys, Like Fleener and Allen who are so close in prospect every little thing matters.

But, the posters here and fans in general think its the 40 time, or Bench Press or whatever that matter, that just isnt true. that stuff is like 80% fluff 20% important. What matters most about the combine are the drills, the doctor examinations and above all else, the interviews. All the things we cant see.

Being an NFL player is a full time job more than ever now. The days of Joe Namath offseason of boozing and partying are over. The combine helps find those guys who perhaps dont take the offseason seriously and therefor maybe dont deserve top dollar. It also helps find the guys harboring secret injuries, like Da'Quan Bowers who prior to the combine some had as a posible 1st overal selection. He ended up being picked 51st because of the knee concerns 1st raised by his decision to only lift at the combine and his examinations.

I have always said that players who skip the combine in favor of pro day only workouts(for poor reasons, cant blame a guy for an injury) often cost themselves big. Ive been told more than a few times that scouts take pro days with a grain of salt. Its gotten better in recent years, but as long as school who have a vested interest in where the player gets drafted have a say in setting up the pro day workouts, then you have to question them. As we have seen throughout the years at the combine and senior bowls, these school lie about size/weight in media guides and work habits, so why trust their pro day setups? I could give some examples of situations where schools have been questioned about the pro day setups in the past for notable athletes. There is a reason scouts have asked schools for more control in how things are set up. The combine removes the question mark completely because it is a level playing field for all.

Martyr
02-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Ithink both could be good TEs but I'd pick Fleener if I had my choice of the two, Allen would be a great pick too.

Kruunch
02-17-2012, 08:25 AM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.

Game tape is king. But when you have 2 guys, Like Fleener and Allen who are so close in prospect every little thing matters.

But, the posters here and fans in general think its the 40 time, or Bench Press or whatever that matter, that just isnt true. that stuff is like 80% fluff 20% important.* What matters most about the combine are the drills, the doctor examinations and above all else, the interviews. All the things we cant see.

Being an NFL player is a full time job more than ever now.* The days of Joe Namath offseason of boozing and partying are over.* The combine helps find those guys who perhaps dont take the offseason seriously and therefor maybe dont deserve top dollar. It also helps find the guys harboring secret injuries, like Da'Quan Bowers who prior to the combine some had as a posible 1st overal selection. He ended up being picked 51st because of the knee concerns 1st raised by his decision to only lift at the combine and his examinations.

I have always said that players who skip the combine in favor of pro day only workouts(for poor reasons, cant blame a guy for an injury) often cost themselves big. Ive been told more than a few times that scouts take pro days with a grain of salt. Its gotten better in recent years, but as long as school who have a vested interest in where the player gets drafted have a say in setting up the pro day workouts, then you have to question them. As we have seen throughout the years at the combine and senior bowls, these school lie about size/weight in media guides and work habits, so why trust their pro day setups? I could give some examples of situations where schools have been questioned about the pro day setups in the past for notable athletes. There is a reason scouts have asked schools for more control in how things are set up. The combine removes the question mark completely because it is a level playing field for all.


I agree with everything you posted but a flashy 40 time at the Combine still changes everything come draft day (for the speed positions anyway).

Just ask Taylor Mays.

Kase-1
02-17-2012, 11:51 AM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.I also admit im no talent scout, but I feel like the combine clouds judgement

Im FINE with other teams looking strictly at the combine, leaves better in-game players for us, LOL

BlueSanta
02-17-2012, 01:20 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.

Game tape is king. But when you have 2 guys, Like Fleener and Allen who are so close in prospect every little thing matters.

But, the posters here and fans in general think its the 40 time, or Bench Press or whatever that matter, that just isnt true. that stuff is like 80% fluff 20% important. What matters most about the combine are the drills, the doctor examinations and above all else, the interviews. All the things we cant see.

Being an NFL player is a full time job more than ever now. The days of Joe Namath offseason of boozing and partying are over. The combine helps find those guys who perhaps dont take the offseason seriously and therefor maybe dont deserve top dollar. It also helps find the guys harboring secret injuries, like Da'Quan Bowers who prior to the combine some had as a posible 1st overal selection. He ended up being picked 51st because of the knee concerns 1st raised by his decision to only lift at the combine and his examinations.

I have always said that players who skip the combine in favor of pro day only workouts(for poor reasons, cant blame a guy for an injury) often cost themselves big. Ive been told more than a few times that scouts take pro days with a grain of salt. Its gotten better in recent years, but as long as school who have a vested interest in where the player gets drafted have a say in setting up the pro day workouts, then you have to question them. As we have seen throughout the years at the combine and senior bowls, these school lie about size/weight in media guides and work habits, so why trust their pro day setups? I could give some examples of situations where schools have been questioned about the pro day setups in the past for notable athletes. There is a reason scouts have asked schools for more control in how things are set up. The combine removes the question mark completely because it is a level playing field for all.


I agree with everything you posted but a flashy 40 time at the Combine still changes everything come draft day (for the speed positions anyway).

Just ask Taylor Mays.

But doesnt that kinda prove what I say? Didnt his 40 time end up being "fluff'?" or has he lived up to it?

I do agree that exceptional athletic ability or speed can make a difference. But, most of the time, guys who run a crazy 40 but dont have tape to back it up(kinda like Mays) end up being only as good as their tape said they would(kinda like mays.)

Kruunch
02-17-2012, 01:44 PM
Interesting, Fleener has moved ahead of Allen in Mayock's new rankings after he initially had Allen ahead of fleener 2 weeks ago

Wait for the Combine.Im not a fan of the combine, I feel that it somewhat overshadows the actual in-game performance and to me Id rather judge actual gameplay


I totally agree.

That doesn't change the fact that the draft boards and all the mock drafts will change considerably after the Combine.

Game tape is king. But when you have 2 guys, Like Fleener and Allen who are so close in prospect every little thing matters.

But, the posters here and fans in general think its the 40 time, or Bench Press or whatever that matter, that just isnt true. that stuff is like 80% fluff 20% important.* What matters most about the combine are the drills, the doctor examinations and above all else, the interviews. All the things we cant see.

Being an NFL player is a full time job more than ever now.* The days of Joe Namath offseason of boozing and partying are over.* The combine helps find those guys who perhaps dont take the offseason seriously and therefor maybe dont deserve top dollar. It also helps find the guys harboring secret injuries, like Da'Quan Bowers who prior to the combine some had as a posible 1st overal selection. He ended up being picked 51st because of the knee concerns 1st raised by his decision to only lift at the combine and his examinations.

I have always said that players who skip the combine in favor of pro day only workouts(for poor reasons, cant blame a guy for an injury) often cost themselves big. Ive been told more than a few times that scouts take pro days with a grain of salt. Its gotten better in recent years, but as long as school who have a vested interest in where the player gets drafted have a say in setting up the pro day workouts, then you have to question them. As we have seen throughout the years at the combine and senior bowls, these school lie about size/weight in media guides and work habits, so why trust their pro day setups? I could give some examples of situations where schools have been questioned about the pro day setups in the past for notable athletes. There is a reason scouts have asked schools for more control in how things are set up. The combine removes the question mark completely because it is a level playing field for all.


I agree with everything you posted but a flashy 40 time at the Combine still changes everything come draft day (for the speed positions anyway).

Just ask Taylor Mays.

But doesnt that kinda prove what I say? Didnt his 40 time end up being "fluff'?" or has he lived up to it?

I do agree that exceptional athletic ability* or speed can make a difference. But, most of the time, guys who run a crazy 40 but dont have tape to back it up(kinda like Mays) end up being only as good as their tape said they would(kinda like mays.)


Yeah I'm agreeing with you.

I'm just commenting on how a fast 40 (or other measurable) can get people (including draft people) all excited over prospects that aren't all that exciting.

The better personel departments don't bite and the worse ones do.

Speaking of which, Mays was a second round pick by the 49ers but considered a flash in the pan when he ran an unofficial 4.31 40 (later timed at a 4.43). He had very poor metrics in the Combine (shuttle, back pedal, etc ...) and his knock was that he was poor in coverage. Had he not flashed a fast 40, chances are he was a 4th round or later pick.

Interesting addendum ... he was a Mike Singletary pick last year which the San Fran front office didn't want. After the lock out, they jettisoned Mays (who actually had a promising first year with the 49ers in 2010) to the Bengals for an "undisclosed" pick (usually means a late rounder).

slipknottin
02-17-2012, 02:34 PM
Mays was projected as a borderline 1st rounder before the combine.

And he ran sub 4.3 at the combine. The official time guy was awful that combine.

In any case, nothing he did or didnt do at the combine really surprised teams. He had incredibly stiff hips and had trouble changing directions. He is a decent deep safety as long as he doesnt have to plant and turn, but try to play him in the box, or have him cover anyone and he has major issues.


40 times arent overrated, it just depends what you use them for. Guys who are football field fast run fast 40s. The more questionable is the guys who play slower on the field than their 40. Then its usually an issue of guys not being able to translate their 40 times into lateral speed.

heavyhitter
02-17-2012, 08:41 PM
<font size="2">Mayock has got UGA TE Orson Charles as his top rated TE for his pre-combine position rankings</font>

heavyhitter
02-17-2012, 08:43 PM
<h4 id="yui_3_4_1_1_1329614734972_1608"><font size="2">Tight End</font></h4> <p id="yui_3_4_1_1_1329614734972_1625"><font size="2">1. Orson Charles, Georgia
2. Coby Fleener, Stanford
3. Dwayne Allen, Clemson
4. Deangelo Peterson, LSU
5. Ladarius Green, Louisiana-Lafayette</font></p>

Neverend
02-17-2012, 09:13 PM
I like Orson Charles,=.. but I think he's another Beckum, H-back type of TE. He's got amazing quickness and real nice length. Should be a very good up the seam seam type of TE but I'd take Allen over him

allentown PA
02-17-2012, 09:18 PM
blocking is not a concern for for either of these guys imo...if the giants are going to take a TE in the first it will be one who can make plays, blocking will not be a deal breaker when it comes to a 1st round pick imo.

allentown PA
02-17-2012, 09:20 PM
was an allen guy at first but the more I see of fleener I can see him making plays in the middle for us..with who we have on the outside It would be nice to have somone of fleener's skill set on the field...look at what ballard did for us and he is nowhere near the skill level of Fleener or allen for that matter.

rainierjef
02-17-2012, 11:11 PM
i think fleener can still add bulk without loosing speed. he is a solid blocker i like him over allen.

nevada11
03-28-2012, 04:16 PM
I think Fleener wins