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swimeasy
02-21-2012, 01:19 PM
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small"><FONT size=2>Diehl-ing with Despair</FONT></SPAN></P>


Honestly, we’re not trying to start a fight with a big guy like David Diehl, but rather just pointing out some numbers. Yesterday we told you he was the worst-ranked tackle in the league when it came to giving up pressure, and he’s about to complete the double, because he’s also the worst-ranked guard. The Giants’ lineman gave up five sacks, two hits, and 28 hurries on the 280 occasions he lined up to pass protect at guard; comfortably worse than the next weakest effort by Zane Beadles of the Denver Broncos. Diehl may bring a lot to the table off the field, but simply put, if you’re watching him on it, you’re likely to be watching him get beat wherever he lines up.</P>


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/</P>

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 01:36 PM
Yikes. I knew he was bad but I didn't know he was that bad. I like the guy he's clearly made contributions over the years but for his salary he needs to either be cut or come back as a backup for a much lower salary.

Cue somebody saying "He's so bad that we won two super bowls with him"...

NYG 5
02-21-2012, 01:44 PM
he was better down the stretch. really, i think he put up better protection, at least i don't remember him giving up any whiffed blocks for sackes the way KMac was just run around all year.


i think these guys need to drop weight if they have any hope of remaining starters, because they're too sluggish now. i mean Diehl was always.... not fast, but its hurting now.

Moss#83
02-21-2012, 03:24 PM
lol when will management realize this guy is going to get Eli killed. I am tired of David Turnstile Diehl. I am tired of his whiffs.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 03:25 PM
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small"><FONT size=2>Diehl-ing with Despair</FONT></SPAN></P>


Honestly, we’re not trying to start a fight with a big guy like David Diehl, but rather just pointing out some numbers. Yesterday we told you he was the worst-ranked tackle in the league when it came to giving up pressure, and he’s about to complete the double, because he’s also the worst-ranked guard. The Giants’ lineman gave up five sacks, two hits, and 28 hurries on the 280 occasions he lined up to pass protect at guard; comfortably worse than the next weakest effort by Zane Beadles of the Denver Broncos. Diehl may bring a lot to the table off the field, but simply put, if you’re watching him on it, you’re likely to be watching him get beat wherever he lines up.</P>


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/</P>


</P>


How many left tackles have two rings?</P>


They left out the most important consideration.</P>


DD is a great Giant......Period!</P>

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 03:34 PM
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small"><FONT size=2>Diehl-ing with Despair</FONT></SPAN></P>


Honestly, we’re not trying to start a fight with a big guy like David Diehl, but rather just pointing out some numbers. Yesterday we told you he was the worst-ranked tackle in the league when it came to giving up pressure, and he’s about to complete the double, because he’s also the worst-ranked guard. The Giants’ lineman gave up five sacks, two hits, and 28 hurries on the 280 occasions he lined up to pass protect at guard; comfortably worse than the next weakest effort by Zane Beadles of the Denver Broncos. Diehl may bring a lot to the table off the field, but simply put, if you’re watching him on it, you’re likely to be watching him get beat wherever he lines up.</P>


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/</P>


</P>


How many left tackles have two rings?</P>


They left out the most important consideration.</P>


DD is a great Giant......Period!</P>

He's great, love him, but it's time to go. We don't need to be paying the worst starting tackle in the league 7 million dollars.

How many teams repeat championships by overpaying the same guys they won with when they're past their prime? Evolve or die.

Moss#83
02-21-2012, 03:34 PM
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small"><FONT size=2>Diehl-ing with Despair</FONT></SPAN></P>


Honestly, we’re not trying to start a fight with a big guy like David Diehl, but rather just pointing out some numbers. Yesterday we told you he was the worst-ranked tackle in the league when it came to giving up pressure, and he’s about to complete the double, because he’s also the worst-ranked guard. The Giants’ lineman gave up five sacks, two hits, and 28 hurries on the 280 occasions he lined up to pass protect at guard; comfortably worse than the next weakest effort by Zane Beadles of the Denver Broncos. Diehl may bring a lot to the table off the field, but simply put, if you’re watching him on it, you’re likely to be watching him get beat wherever he lines up.</P>


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/</P>


</P>


How many left tackles have two rings?</P>


They left out the most important consideration.</P>


DD is a great Giant......Period!</P>LOL DD had almost 0 impact on the Giants winning the SB. He had more impact on Eli getting crushed than the Giants winning games.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:18 PM
How many left tackles have two rings?</P>


They left out the most important consideration.</P>


DD is a great Giant......Period!</P>

What kind of argument is this? You should be ashamed.

Kase-1
02-21-2012, 04:26 PM
Diehl was a GREAT Giant, a total team player, one of the most versitle guys we've had on the OL in ages, and a locker room hero...... BUT at this point in his career, if he wants to stay a Giant he's gotta accept a role as a depth player.

Beatty is better than him at LT
Boothe AND Petrus are better than him at LG
Snee is better than him at RG
Who knows whats going on at RT

But if Diehl wants a starting spot he better be ready to compete at RT, cause IMO thats the only spot he has a chance at. Then again I want us to look at a nice versitle RT/LT kinda guy that we LOOOOVE to have on our OL

Baas can kick rocks, I like Boothe at C and Petrus showed grit and gusto at LG and for much cheaper too

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 04:29 PM
Diehl was a GREAT Giant, a total team player, one of the most versitle guys we've had on the OL in ages, and a locker room hero...... BUT at this point in his career, if he wants to stay a Giant he's gotta accept a role as a depth player.

Beatty is better than him at LT
Boothe AND Petrus are better than him at LG
Snee is better than him at RG
Who knows whats going on at RT

But if Diehl wants a starting spot he better be ready to compete at RT, cause IMO thats the only spot he has a chance at. Then again I want us to look at a nice versitle RT/LT kinda guy that we LOOOOVE to have on our OL

Baas can kick rocks, I like Boothe at C and Petrus showed grit and gusto at LG and for much cheaper too
</P>


Our running game AND our pass protection improved when Beatty got hurt and DD moved to LT. He's a better LT than guard. He has problems with speed rushers at times but he is far more solid than some of you are giving him credit for.</P>


Yes $7MM is high. Who says he can't redo his contract. And don't give me Beatty. he underperformed last season.</P>

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:32 PM
Our running game AND our pass protection improved when Beatty got hurt and DD moved to LT

Another AWFUL argument.

The LT position both run and pass got worse when Diehl came in.

The LG position got significantly better when Boothe came in.

Fact is, Beatty was a far better LT, and Boothe a far better LG.


Diehl was by far the worst pass blocking LT in the league last year, but you think he was "far better than we give him credit for"? On what basis?

Kase-1
02-21-2012, 04:34 PM
Diehl was a GREAT Giant, a total team player, one of the most versitle guys we've had on the OL in ages, and a locker room hero...... BUT at this point in his career, if he wants to stay a Giant he's gotta accept a role as a depth player.

Beatty is better than him at LT
Boothe AND Petrus are better than him at LG
Snee is better than him at RG
Who knows whats going on at RT

But if Diehl wants a starting spot he better be ready to compete at RT, cause IMO thats the only spot he has a chance at. Then again I want us to look at a nice versitle RT/LT kinda guy that we LOOOOVE to have on our OL

Baas can kick rocks, I like Boothe at C and Petrus showed grit and gusto at LG and for much cheaper too
</p>


Our running game AND our pass protection improved when Beatty got hurt and DD moved to LT. He's a better LT than guard. He has problems with speed rushers at times but he is far more solid than some of you are giving him credit for.</p>


Yes $7MM is high. Who says he can't redo his contract. And don't give me Beatty. he underperformed last season.</p>Our running game improved when we had Boothe at Center

Diehl is one of the worst starting LTs in the league, the numbers are all over the place, year after year he's at the bottom of the barrel for starting LTs. I think he's a GREAT Giant and I want him to retire here, but he isnt a starting LT, LG, or RG anymore. If he has a chance at starting its gonna be at RT

Before he got eye gouged Captain Insane-o style, Beatty was having a BEASTLY season. He faced a ton of top tier pass rushers like Orakpo, Peppers, T.Cole, etc and held them to nothing, Beatty is the LT of our future, mark my words I said it before we drafted him and Ill stand by that

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 04:40 PM
<span style="FONT-SIZE: small"><font size="2">Diehl-ing with Despair</font></span></p>


Honestly, we’re not trying to start a fight with a big guy like David Diehl, but rather just pointing out some numbers. Yesterday we told you he was the worst-ranked tackle in the league when it came to giving up pressure, and he’s about to complete the double, because he’s also the worst-ranked guard. The Giants’ lineman gave up five sacks, two hits, and 28 hurries on the 280 occasions he lined up to pass protect at guard; comfortably worse than the next weakest effort by Zane Beadles of the Denver Broncos. Diehl may bring a lot to the table off the field, but simply put, if you’re watching him on it, you’re likely to be watching him get beat wherever he lines up.</p>


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/</p>

just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these crackpot stat sites...

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:47 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these* crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 04:49 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




he wasent even 'our guy' last preseason, when the team gave Beatty the starting LT job.

I still think Diehl gets released. He makes far too much money for how he plays.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 04:53 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack.

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




he wasent even 'our guy' last preseason, when the team gave Beatty the starting LT job.

I still think Diehl gets released. He makes far too much money for how he plays.

I dunno what the Giants are going to do... but the offensive line's performance was 1000 times better when we moved Diehl to tackle. Once he got comfortable again our offensive line did a GREAT job.

Not only that the guy played with a broken hand for half the year...

Diehl was a warrior for us this year and big part of our success

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 04:54 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these* crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




Yeah, that was based on last year though. Which I still don't understand I thought JPP looked really promising last season even.

For Diehl, do you really not see him getting beat constantly this season? I mean people were making excuses for him at LG, they said he didn't get help because Baas was constantly helping Snee. But at LT, you can CLEARLY see him getting beat over and over and over again. I mean unless you want to say he was hurt or something, there are no excuses for his play at LT.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:55 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack.

which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack.

which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.

you can't have it both ways - either your making an argument based on stats or your not

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack. which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.</P>


Didn't he get sacked a lot more earlier in the season with Beatty at LT.</P>

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 04:58 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




Yeah, that was based on last year though. Which I still don't understand I thought JPP looked really promising last season even.

For Diehl, do you really not see him getting beat constantly this season? I mean people were making excuses for him at LG, they said he didn't get help because Baas was constantly helping Snee. But at LT, you can CLEARLY see him getting beat over and over and over again. I mean unless you want to say he was hurt or something, there are no excuses for his play at LT.

i think he looked awful at guard - but also i'm not sure it wasn't because of the inexperience and line changes of Beatty, Baas, and Boothe next to him.

When Diehl moved to tackle i thought he did a damn fine job and is a big part of the reason why we are superbowl champs this year.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 04:58 PM
but the offensive line's performance was 1000 times better when we moved Diehl to tackle. Once he got comfortable again our offensive line did a GREAT job>

Diehl was horrible at both positions, moving him to OT, then giving him constant help with chips and double teams helped his pass blocking to be a bit better, Boothe improved the LG position tremendously.

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 05:02 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these* crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




Yeah, that was based on last year though. Which I still don't understand I thought JPP looked really promising last season even.

For Diehl, do you really not see him getting beat constantly this season? I mean people were making excuses for him at LG, they said he didn't get help because Baas was constantly helping Snee. But at LT, you can CLEARLY see him getting beat over and over and over again. I mean unless you want to say he was hurt or something, there are no excuses for his play at LT.

i think he looked awful at guard - but also i'm not sure it wasn't because of the inexperience and line changes of Beatty, Baas, and Boothe next to him.

When Diehl moved to tackle i thought he did a damn fine job and is a big part of the reason why we are superbowl champs this year.


I'm glad Eli wasn't getting sacked too much, but to me you can't say a guy is doing a good job when he's constantly losing the one on one battle with his guy.

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 05:02 PM
but the offensive line's performance was 1000 times better when we moved Diehl to tackle. Once he got comfortable again our offensive line did a GREAT job&gt;

Diehl was horrible at both positions, moving him to OT, then giving him constant help with chips and double teams helped his pass blocking to be a bit better, Boothe improved the LG position tremendously.

define constant help

EVERY team chips and does those things...

I mean show me a LT that takes Demarcus Ware on by themself?

I am not saying hes the best LT in the game, but hes def deserving of a 4mil a year deal.. he showed that last year when he moved to tackle.

MattMeyerBud
02-21-2012, 05:03 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




Yeah, that was based on last year though. Which I still don't understand I thought JPP looked really promising last season even.

For Diehl, do you really not see him getting beat constantly this season? I mean people were making excuses for him at LG, they said he didn't get help because Baas was constantly helping Snee. But at LT, you can CLEARLY see him getting beat over and over and over again. I mean unless you want to say he was hurt or something, there are no excuses for his play at LT.

i think he looked awful at guard - but also i'm not sure it wasn't because of the inexperience and line changes of Beatty, Baas, and Boothe next to him.

When Diehl moved to tackle i thought he did a damn fine job and is a big part of the reason why we are superbowl champs this year.


I'm glad Eli wasn't getting sacked too much, but to me you can't say a guy is doing a good job when he's constantly losing the one on one battle with his guy.


i will continue tom

i think thats GREATLY exaggerated...

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 05:05 PM
I mean show me a LT that takes Demarcus Ware on by themself?

I am not saying hes the best LT in the game, but hes def deserving of a 4mil a year deal.. he showed that last year when he moved to tackle.


How does being the worst pass blocking LT in the league, worse than the other LT on your own team deserve a 4 mil a year deal?

Watch the SB, watch what percentage of plays Diehl got help, and look who he is playing against, mostly guys who arent even capable pass rushers

Kase-1
02-21-2012, 05:12 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack. which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.</p>


Didn't he get sacked a lot more earlier in the season with Beatty at LT.</p>

He was sacked with Beatty at LT 3.5 times in 10 games
He was sacked with Diehl 6.5 times in 16 games

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 05:42 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack. which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.</P>


Didn't he get sacked a lot more earlier in the season with Beatty at LT.</P>




He was sacked with Beatty at LT 3.5 times in 10 games
He was sacked with Diehl 6.5 times in 16 games
</P>


Hate to break it to you Kase but Eli was sacked a lot more than 10 times.</P>

Kase-1
02-21-2012, 05:45 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack. which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.</p>


Didn't he get sacked a lot more earlier in the season with Beatty at LT.</p>




He was sacked with Beatty at LT 3.5 times in 10 games
He was sacked with Diehl 6.5 times in 16 games
</p>


Hate to break it to you Kase but Eli was sacked a lot more than 10 times.</p>Beatty let up 3.5 sacks and Diehl let up 6.5 sacks individually not the whole team

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 05:45 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these* crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.

i do - it was all over TAGF preseason...

I even had some cowboy fans reference me to it... i tried looking for it again but couldn't find it...

not sure it was PFF, but it was a similiar type stat site

I'm fine with DIehl being our guy




Yeah, that was based on last year though. Which I still don't understand I thought JPP looked really promising last season even.

For Diehl, do you really not see him getting beat constantly this season? I mean people were making excuses for him at LG, they said he didn't get help because Baas was constantly helping Snee. But at LT, you can CLEARLY see him getting beat over and over and over again. I mean unless you want to say he was hurt or something, there are no excuses for his play at LT.

i think he looked awful at guard - but also i'm not sure it wasn't because of the inexperience and line changes of Beatty, Baas, and Boothe next to him.

When Diehl moved to tackle i thought he did a damn fine job and is a big part of the reason why we are superbowl champs this year.


I'm glad Eli wasn't getting sacked too much, but to me you can't say a guy is doing a good job when he's constantly losing the one on one battle with his guy.


i will continue tom

i think thats GREATLY exaggerated...


Well look, you make a valid point about stats sites getting carried away with the way they rate players. But let's take away the value judgement aspect of it. They have Diehl giving up the most pressures per snap of any LT in the league. Unless you think for some reason they are DRASTICALLY misclassifying those pressures, which would basically mean they have it out for Diehl on a personal level, you really can't argue that he's even a decent LT in pass protection.

Redeyejedi
02-21-2012, 05:53 PM
just like those awful stats say that rolle was the worst saftey in the league

just like the same stat that said preseason JPP was statistically the worst DE in the league last year...

enough with these* crackpot stat sites...




judging safety play when you cant even see them on the TV screen is a completely different issue, which i agree with you.

But offensive line play, overall, is not difficult to observe.

I dont remember reading anything that said JPP was the worst DE in the league.I didnt need stats to tell me Diehl was horrible anyway it was painfully obvious.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 05:53 PM
Don't have the patience to find it but I seem to remember a period of time after DD took over at LT, that we went several games in a row without a sack. which means nothing. Eli is as good as Peyton at sensing pressure and getting the ball off before it gets there, plus his pocket mobility this season was tremendous.</P>


Didn't he get sacked a lot more earlier in the season with Beatty at LT.</P>




He was sacked with Beatty at LT 3.5 times in 10 games
He was sacked with Diehl 6.5 times in 16 games
</P>


Hate to break it to you Kase but Eli was sacked a lot more than 10 times.</P>


Beatty let up 3.5 sacks and Diehl let up 6.5 sacks individually not the whole team
</P>


No unit plays more as a group than the O line. You have to look at team production in both pass protection and run blocking. My point is that our team ran better and protected better when we moved DD to LT.</P>

giantsfan420
02-21-2012, 05:55 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps.

kmac wasn't far behind.

eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed

Redeyejedi
02-21-2012, 05:59 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps.

kmac wasn't far behind.

eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed I dont think 25% of the QB's in the NFL would of finished that SF game.

Redeyejedi
02-21-2012, 06:00 PM
I thought Diehl was the worst starting lineman in the NFL this year.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:08 PM
No unit plays more as a group than the O line. You have to look at team production in both pass protection and run blocking.* My point is that our team ran better and protected better when we moved DD to LT.</P>

Wrong. The team ran the ball better and protected better when they put Boothe in at LG instead of Diehl.

Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen.

Fortunately they gave him tons of help at LT so he didnt get Eli killed.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 06:11 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps. kmac wasn't far behind. eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed</P>


He took a lot of hits against SF, one of the best defenses in the league.</P>


Deihl is not a top LT, but he's not a bad one either. Using "metric stats" to evaluate O lineman is nonsense. He's been a great Giant and he's a good football player and leader.</P>

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 06:11 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps.

kmac wasn't far behind.

eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed I dont think 25% of the QB's in the NFL would of finished that SF game.

Exactly! But nobody worries about that because Eli never gets hurt, he can get crushed all game and keep getting back up.

Everything is fine, until it isn't.

The day when Eli doesn't get up and goes on IR instead, you guys will all be very sorry that OL was not properly addressed on this team.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:12 PM
Deihl is not a top LT, but he's not a bad one either.*

Hes the worst pass blocking OT in the league. How is that "not bad"??

jomo
02-21-2012, 06:12 PM
JR has some work to do here in the off season. I know Beatty will be back but who knows whether he's any better than adequate. Petrus will be back and may have upside but I believe we need another proven piece to work into the mix. Certainly Diehl, Kareem and Baas were all below average this year and none of them are young enough to claim upside potential.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:14 PM
JR has some work to do here in the off season. I know Beatty will be back but who knows whether he's any better than adequate.

I thought Beatty played pretty well early on. If he just becomes a bit more consistent, hes a solid starter.

Kase-1
02-21-2012, 06:16 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps. kmac wasn't far behind. eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed</p>


He took a lot of hits against SF, one of the best defenses in the league.</p>


Deihl is not a top LT, but he's not a bad one either. Using "metric stats" to evaluate O lineman is nonsense. He's been a great Giant and he's a good football player and leader.</p>Diehl USED to be a good player for us, since he started playing LT in 07 his game has done nothing but gone downhill

Seeing how many sacks and pressures a specific lineman let up isnt a nonsense stat, its a great stat to judge individual linemen by

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 06:18 PM
diehl was the worst ranked tackle statistically by using the metric of formulating sacks, pressures, hits and amount of snaps. kmac wasn't far behind. eli took some downright brutal hits, hope we can sure up the OL and i think OT needs to be addressed</P>


He took a lot of hits against SF, one of the best defenses in the league.</P>


Deihl is not a top LT, but he's not a bad one either. Using "metric stats" to evaluate O lineman is nonsense. He's been a great Giant and he's a good football player and leader.</P>


Diehl USED to be a good player for us, since he started playing LT in 07 his game has done nothing but gone downhill

Seeing how many sacks and pressures a specific lineman let up isnt a nonsense stat, its a great stat to judge individual linemen by
</P>


There are far too many variables Kase in that. You don't play as individuals on the O line.</P>


The FACT is that we protected better and ran better as a team when DD went to LT.</P>


</P>


I feel that I'm leaving something out.....what is it?</P>


Oh yeah....we also won a friggin SB.</P>

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:21 PM
The FACT is that we protected better and ran better as a team when DD went to LT.


*</P>


I feel that I'm leaving something out.....what is it?</P>


Oh yeah....we also won a friggin SB.</P>

They also protected better and ran better when Osi was healthy. Your cause and effect crap is total nonsense.

Redeyejedi
02-21-2012, 06:24 PM
Deihl is not a top LT, but he's not a bad one either.*

Hes the worst pass blocking OT in the league. How is that "not bad"??Im sure are NFL East rivals will be looking for pass rushers in the off season to come after this line. The Eagles are loaded with them

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 06:26 PM
The FACT is that we protected better and ran better as a team when DD went to LT.


</P>


I feel that I'm leaving something out.....what is it?</P>


Oh yeah....we also won a friggin SB.</P>


They also protected better and ran better when Osi was healthy. Your cause and effect crap is total nonsense.</P>


So the D line has an effect on pass protection? Now you're in fantasyland.</P>

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:29 PM
So the D line has an effect on pass protection?* Now you're in fantasyland.</P>

So are you if you think Diehl is "better than we think"

Theres a reason the team replaced him at LT last offseason.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 06:35 PM
So the D line has an effect on pass protection? Now you're in fantasyland.


</P>


So are you if you think Diehl is "better than we think" Theres a reason the team replaced him at LT last offseason.</P>


I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season. But we didn't protect well when he was out there. We protected much better when DD went to LT.</P>


And by your logic, Hixon was better than Cruz because the team decided that Cruz should be #4 and Hixon #3.</P>

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 06:39 PM
[I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season.* But we didn't protect well when he was out there.*

They didnt protect well because Diehl got beat at LG more than any other guard I have ever seen in my life. Boothe was a massive improvement.

And the reason Hixon was above Cruz on the depth chart was that Hixon was here and proven. Diehl was the guy that was here and was proven, and they placed Beatty in front of him.

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 06:42 PM
The FACT is that we protected better and ran better as a team when DD went to LT.


*</P>


I feel that I'm leaving something out.....what is it?</P>


Oh yeah....we also won a friggin SB.</P>


They also protected better and ran better when Osi was healthy. Your cause and effect crap is total nonsense.</P>


So the D line has an effect on pass protection?* Now you're in fantasyland.</P>

I think it's dubious that our pass protection was better with Diehl at LT anyway. I don't know the numbers so I might be wrong. I'm talking about hits and hurries too, not just sacks.

If the pocket collapses, Eli runs outside and spins out of a lineman's arms, heaves a pass downfield and then gets creamed I don't exactly see that as the OLine doing their job just because they didn't give up a sack. How many times did we see that down the stretch?

And if we got better in run blocking when Diehl moved outside, that actually indicates that he was part of the problem.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 06:52 PM
[I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season. But we didn't protect well when he was out there. They didnt protect well because Diehl got beat at LG more than any other guard I have ever seen in my life. Boothe was a massive improvement. And the reason Hixon was above Cruz on the depth chart was that Hixon was here and proven. Diehl was the guy that was here and was proven, and they placed Beatty in front of him.</P>


Well he did the job when he got back to LT. The myth about DD is that he is a better guard or even RT. LT is his best position. We won 2 SB's with him there as well.</P>

tonyt830
02-21-2012, 07:01 PM
I see lots of back and forth in here regarding if Diehl is bad or not so bad as some say. </P>


</P>


But even if Diehl is a great team player, a true Giant and has 2 rings, his time as a Giant is running out. He is owed way too much money to be an avg at best LT and/or sub-par guard.</P>


</P>


The O-line plays as a unit, yes. But Boothe and Petrus greatly improved that guard spot once Beatty, unfortunately got hurt, and the Giants had to play O-line shuffle. Yeah Diehl has leadership qualities and experience, but this is a business. The Giants have to protect their franchise, 2 time Superbowl MVP winning QB.</P>


</P>


Beatty is quicker and has better footwork over Diehl and that is a plus when playing the LT spot in the NFL. </P>


</P>


Some of you(Matt and Morehead) are making it sound personal just because slip, redeye or kase are trying to make an objective opinion regarding Diehl. Ultimately it is going to come down to what Reese and Coughlin thinks what is best for the team, financially and performance wise.</P>

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 07:05 PM
[I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season.* But we didn't protect well when he was out there.* They didnt protect well because Diehl got beat at LG more than any other guard I have ever seen in my life. Boothe was a massive improvement. And the reason Hixon was above Cruz on the depth chart was that Hixon was here and proven. Diehl was the guy that was here and was proven, and they placed Beatty in front of him.</P>


Well he did the job when he got back to LT.* The myth about DD is that he is a better guard or even RT.* LT is his best position.* We won 2 SB's with him there as well.</P>

Sadly that is true, he's better at LT than LG.

Please stop with using SB wins to justify the play of each individual player. He was the worst player on the worst unit of our team. If he deserves to start just because of the SB win, we might as well send Reese on a long vacation and forfeit all our draft picks, since every player on our roster is a SB winner.

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 07:06 PM
I see lots of back and forth in here regarding if Diehl is bad or not so bad as some say. </P>


</P>


But even if Diehl is a great team player, a true Giant and has 2 rings, his time as a Giant is running out. He is owed way too much money to be an avg at best LT and/or sub-par guard.</P>


</P>


The O-line plays as a unit, yes. But Boothe and Petrus greatly improved that guard spot once Beatty, unfortunately got hurt, and the Giants had to play O-line shuffle. Yeah Diehl has leadership qualities and experience, but this is a business. The Giants have to protect their franchise, 2 time Superbowl MVP winning QB.</P>


</P>


Beatty is quicker and has better footwork over Diehl and that is a plus when playing the LT spot in the NFL. </P>


</P>


Some of you(Matt and Morehead) are making it sound personal just because slip, redeye or kase are trying to make an objective opinion regarding Diehl. Ultimately it is going to come down to what Reese and Coughlin thinks what is best for the team, financially and performance wise.</P>


</P>


It certainly isn't personal, especially with Kase. I love that guy. Tailgated with him every year for the past 3 years. But I refuse to have "stats" be the determining factor in the play of an O lineman. I agree that Petrus seemed to help to but he went back to the bench when Baas came back. We still kept playing well. (although SF and the Pats got a better pass rush on us). My point is that DD is a good football player. They have been trying to run him oput of town for years here and he keeps playing and producing. Thats my opinion at least. Plus I love the guy. He's been a mainstay on that O line since 03.</P>

Morehead State
02-21-2012, 07:08 PM
[I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season. But we didn't protect well when he was out there. They didnt protect well because Diehl got beat at LG more than any other guard I have ever seen in my life. Boothe was a massive improvement. And the reason Hixon was above Cruz on the depth chart was that Hixon was here and proven. Diehl was the guy that was here and was proven, and they placed Beatty in front of him.</P>


Well he did the job when he got back to LT. The myth about DD is that he is a better guard or even RT. LT is his best position. We won 2 SB's with him there as well.</P>


Sadly that is true, he's better at LT than LG. Please stop with using SB wins to justify the play of each individual player. He was the worst player on the worst unit of our team. If he deserves to start just because of the SB win, we might as well send Reese on a long vacation and forfeit all our draft picks, since every player on our roster is a SB winner.</P>


I'm not saying that SB wins by itself is sufficient. I am saying that we won 2 SB's with a vital position being filled by a guy who some here are saying ios the worst in the league. Doesn't make sense. LT is one of the most important positions on the field. Its just one piece of evidence, not proof by itself.</P>

tonyt830
02-21-2012, 07:17 PM
I see lots of back and forth in here regarding if Diehl is bad or not so bad as some say. </P>


</P>


But even if Diehl is a great team player, a true Giant and has 2 rings, his time as a Giant is running out. He is owed way too much money to be an avg at best LT and/or sub-par guard.</P>


</P>


The O-line plays as a unit, yes. But Boothe and Petrus greatly improved that guard spot once Beatty, unfortunately got hurt, and the Giants had to play O-line shuffle. Yeah Diehl has leadership qualities and experience, but this is a business. The Giants have to protect their franchise, 2 time Superbowl MVP winning QB.</P>


</P>


Beatty is quicker and has better footwork over Diehl and that is a plus when playing the LT spot in the NFL. </P>


</P>


Some of you(Matt and Morehead) are making it sound personal just because slip, redeye or kase are trying to make an objective opinion regarding Diehl. Ultimately it is going to come down to what Reese and Coughlin thinks what is best for the team, financially and performance wise.</P>


</P>


It certainly isn't personal, especially with Kase. I love that guy. Tailgated with him every year for the past 3 years. But I refuse to have "stats" be the determining factor in the play of an O lineman. I agree that Petrus seemed to help to but he went back to the bench when Baas came back. We still kept playing well. (although SF and the Pats got a better pass rush on us). My point is that DD is a good football player. They have been trying to run him oput of town for years here and he keeps playing and producing. Thats my opinion at least. Plus I love the guy. He's been a mainstay on that O line since 03.</P>


I know you, Matt and kase are "buddies" not just on here but outside of the message boards. And I can see your loyalty towards Diehl, since he has been through 2 magical runs with our Giants playing a tough position.</P>


</P>


But football is a business. there are plenty of decisions that are made with all teams that don't always set well with some of the fans. And yes, stats should not be the only factor in the play of a player. Thats why we have Coughlin as our head coach and Flaherty as our O-line coach. They are the other part of the equation that factors in withjudging a players performance.</P>


</P>


</P>

buddy33
02-21-2012, 07:27 PM
Where are some of you getting that Beatty was so bad? I remember him handling a few really good pass rushers.

I do also remember someone posting stats early in the season showing that DD was giving up the most pressure and sacks of any OG in the league.

jhamburg
02-21-2012, 07:29 PM
[I was completely in support of Beatty going to LT last season.* But we didn't protect well when he was out there.* They didnt protect well because Diehl got beat at LG more than any other guard I have ever seen in my life. Boothe was a massive improvement. And the reason Hixon was above Cruz on the depth chart was that Hixon was here and proven. Diehl was the guy that was here and was proven, and they placed Beatty in front of him.</P>


Well he did the job when he got back to LT.* The myth about DD is that he is a better guard or even RT.* LT is his best position.* We won 2 SB's with him there as well.</P>


Sadly that is true, he's better at LT than LG. Please stop with using SB wins to justify the play of each individual player. He was the worst player on the worst unit of our team. If he deserves to start just because of the SB win, we might as well send Reese on a long vacation and forfeit all our draft picks, since every player on our roster is a SB winner.</P>


I'm not saying that SB wins by itself is sufficient.* I am saying that we won 2 SB's with a vital position being filled by a guy who some here are saying ios the worst in the league.* Doesn't make sense.* LT is one of the most important positions on the field.** Its just one piece of evidence, not proof by itself.</P>

Eli was one of the best, if not the best at evading pressure this season. Let's just say if we had someone like Matt Ryan back there it would have been a **** show.

I do think you have a certain point in that our existing O-line "worked" good enough to win the SB, but you need to constantly find ways to improve and I still think in Diehl's case we could get better production for much less money.

pica01
02-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Swim,you have alot of nerve saying something like this and actually backing it up with stats.From what I've experienced here you've committed a cardinal sin talking objectively about Giant football.I,for one,didn't realize Diehl was ranked this bad.Let's face it,as bad as the running game was this year,the Oline protected Eli fairly well.Posts like yours are why I'm here.The posts that will defend Diehl and attack you will be much more numerous.Good post.Thanks

rainierjef
02-21-2012, 08:03 PM
People saying that the O-line is a unit and Deihl is not completely to blame for the pressures and the sacks are the same people that solely put the blame on Osi for his poor run blocking. is the D-line and line backers not a unit as well?</P>


Deihl was very poor at LG this year and when he went to LT he was serviceable at most far from good but not terrible. and the fact that eli manuevered around in the pocket as well as he did this year, couple that with the fact that he threw the ball away more or made some quick decision passes skew the actual stats in question. </P>


how else do you rate an O-Lineman? all i hear is he's a great leader, hes a good locker room presence, hes veteran, we won a superbowl does all that matter necxt year when theres going to be a target on eli's head? Evole or decline. we need to address RT/LT and honestly i think we should address C as well. </P>


the running game got more push with petrus/ boothe, and its know that the giants like running between the2,4gapsmore. we have to look at the runninggaps thats how we determined it in highschool look at the gains through 3,5 and 7 that should give you theeffectiveness in run blocking of the LT/LG/C.</P>


</P>

Voldamort
02-21-2012, 08:39 PM
didn,t see that coming?

giantsfan420
02-21-2012, 08:50 PM
and speaking of "myths"...diehl played in like 240 something snaps at LT.

Beatty played roughly the same number of stats if not more, and didnt concede anywhere near the pressures, hits, and sacks diehl did.

ur mistaking people discussing diehls horrid play as saying he's a horrid giant. guys an all time great giant and i'd love to have him back as a depth player.

if he is our starting LT next year for the season, eli will not make it thru the season.

number of hits, pressures, and sacks per snap is not some bs metric. the metric was applied to every single lt equally. DIEHL WAS THE WORST BY FAR.

but u have to remember, that being the worst LT doesn't meane very snap he's giving up hits. he still had a success rate. i think the best LT in the metric was 97%. Diehl was like 89%. he still was capable at least, but anyone with eyes and a brain could see him getting beaten more than any other OT.

even on the SB play to MM down the sideline, do u see how the scheme was handled for the OL? DIEHL WASNT EVEN THE PRIMARY BLOCKER, HE ACTUALLY PULLED BEHIND BOOTHE WHO INITIALLY TOOK THE PASS RUSHER AND DIEHL THAN ASSISTED ON THE BLOCK. in fact, Diehl kinda scewed that play up too.

diehl-great giant, great team mate, at one time, a GREAT OLmen.

Now-his best is avg. if that. we need a new LT. doesn't make what DD did any less special or great or appreciated.

is all this talk about how we're all being wrong, over the top, using myths coming from the guy who ragged on eli and woulda driven him out of town if he had his way? really?lmfao!

lawl
02-21-2012, 09:30 PM
It's pretty much clear as day that David Diehl was absolutely terrible this year.

RagTime Blue
02-21-2012, 10:04 PM
Don't worry. Jerry Reese is downright cold-blooded (in a good way for the team). He won't overpay anyone if he has the chance to inject youth into the spot.

I don't know how the salary cap works (if Diehl gets cut in camp, does it count against us?). But I suspect Petrus, Brewer, and Boothe will be bigger names in upcoming seasons than David Diehl.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 10:07 PM
the Oline protected Eli fairly well

This is very very wrong.

Eli protected Eli very well. Eli was the reason the sack numbers were so low.

Same reason Peyton gets sacked rarely. It isnt because his OL is good.

rainierjef
02-21-2012, 10:15 PM
Right now we want to build an oline thats gonna give us good holes to run through, we know eli will take care of him self he's done it all year.
sad that i have to say that but it is what it is.

deihl was not good at LG and servicable at best at LT. this is not the way to move forward especially with the fact that were going to be a passing threat in 2013

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 10:16 PM
And Im getting annoyed with this the giants ran the ball better when Beatty left.

Lets compare....

Bradshaw + Beatty = 111 carries, 440 yards = 4ypc
Bradshaw + Diehl = 60 carries, 219 yards = 3.65 ypc

Next person to use this argument should be tar and feathered.

rainierjef
02-21-2012, 10:30 PM
were not putting the blame solely on Deihl either i will smack anyone that tells me baas didn't contribute to us not running the ball effectively. time for change man i posted on one of my threads.

LT - Beatty
LG - Petrus / Boothe
C - Kevin Zeiter ( draftee) i just like this kid hes a mauler can play LG/C
RG - Snee
RT - Brewer

Someone told me this is too much change in the off season, im like nothing can be worst than what we had last year.

slipknottin
02-21-2012, 10:32 PM
were not putting the blame solely on Deihl either i will smack anyone that tells me baas didn't contribute to us not running the ball effectively.

I thought there were a couple games where Baas looked really good, the SB being one of them.

I think he spent most of the season dealing with various injuries, Id like to give him another chance next season. He was a much better player for the 49ers than he was this season for the giants.

Snee looked like he was injured much of the season too.

giantsfan420
02-21-2012, 10:32 PM
And Im getting annoyed with this the giants ran the ball better when Beatty left.

Lets compare....

Bradshaw + Beatty = 111 carries, 440 yards = 4ypc
Bradshaw + Diehl = 60 carries, 219 yards = 3.65 ypc

Next person to use this argument should be tar and feathered.

but...but..but thats a mythical stat and doesn't reflect on anything. just bc a statistic is valid and represents how well or ineffective a player performed is bs made up by people who have a grudge against one player in the NFL

Redeyejedi
02-22-2012, 07:41 AM
were not putting the blame solely on Deihl either i will smack anyone that tells me baas didn't contribute to us not running the ball effectively.

I thought there were a couple games where Baas looked really good, the SB being one of them.

I think he spent most of the season dealing with various injuries, Id like to give him another chance next season. He was a much better player for the 49ers than he was this season for the giants.

Snee looked like he was injured much of the season too.Baas graded out as one of the best run blockers in the NFL in 2010.Dont understand why he came here and was atrocious

buddy33
02-22-2012, 08:09 AM
Maybe injuries and the lock out hurt Baas.

What does anyone think about Petrus or Brewer? Just wondering because everyone is saying the Giants need an OL but what if these guys where ready? Beatty, Petrus, and Brewer are all young. Then they have Snee, Baas, and Boothe. If those guys are ready along with what they have maybe they are not in as bad shape as some think.

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 08:16 AM
Maybe injuries and the lock out hurt Baas.

What does anyone think about Petrus or Brewer? Just wondering because everyone is saying the Giants need an OL but what if these guys where ready? Beatty, Petrus, and Brewer are all young. Then they have Snee, Baas, and Boothe. If those guys are ready along with what they have maybe they are not in as bad shape as some think.agreed Buddy with the injury and lockout part regarding Baas. I think he will improve further this offseason with OTAs, camps and preseason.

TrueBlue@NYC
02-22-2012, 09:31 AM
I've been saying it for a couple of seasons now, I honestly think RT is the best spot for Dehl at this point in his career. I think the only reason why they haven't put him there before is b/c of Kmac. His skill set really fits the position. </P>


Other than Boothe, our whole OL really struggled last season. </P>


I agree with other posters that Baas should be given another shot. Look at how much Boley and Canty improved in their 2nd seasons on the team, and Baas really was a good center in SF. Besides, if we cut him this offseason, the cap hit would be huge. </P>


I think Kmac might be done, at least as a tackle. He was abused all season and there were way too many times where a rusher would go around him without even getting touched. He simply doesn't have the laterall agililty for the position anymore. His strength and toughness would translate well inside, but I'm not sure how well he can pull. </P>


Snee had a down year, but I see him bouncing back, especially if there's better play around him. He looked like he tried to do too much at times last season. </P>


I think the Giants still have some pieces that they can use here, and I'm curious to see if Koets can make it back next season to add depth inside. Either way, they need to bring in some help at tackle and center to compete. </P>

Morehead State
02-22-2012, 09:32 AM
And Im getting annoyed with this the giants ran the ball better when Beatty left. Lets compare.... Bradshaw + Beatty = 111 carries, 440 yards = 4ypc Bradshaw + Diehl = 60 carries, 219 yards = 3.65 ypc Next person to use this argument should be tar and feathered.</P>


Do the playoffs count?</P>


I guess not when it doesn't support your argument. SF was a great defense but we ran the ball well in the playoffs on average.</P>

Moss#83
02-22-2012, 09:49 AM
And Im getting annoyed with this the giants ran the ball better when Beatty left. Lets compare.... Bradshaw + Beatty = 111 carries, 440 yards = 4ypc Bradshaw + Diehl = 60 carries, 219 yards = 3.65 ypc Next person to use this argument should be tar and feathered.</P>


Do the playoffs count?</P>


I guess not when it doesn't support your argument.** SF was a great defense but we ran the ball well in the playoffs on average.</P>Has nothing to do with how terrible DD is.

You don't even need a metrocard to get past this turnstile.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 10:30 AM
I think the Giants still have some pieces that they can use here, and I'm curious to see if Koets can make it back next season to add depth inside. Either way, they need to bring in some help at tackle and center to compete. </p>I totally forgot about Koetes, he was really seeming to come along before he got injured with a........ Thats right you guessed it, a Torn ACL

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 10:32 AM
And Im getting annoyed with this the giants ran the ball better when Beatty left. Lets compare.... Bradshaw + Beatty = 111 carries, 440 yards = 4ypc Bradshaw + Diehl = 60 carries, 219 yards = 3.65 ypc Next person to use this argument should be tar and feathered.</p>


Do the playoffs count?</p>


I guess not when it doesn't support your argument. SF was a great defense but we ran the ball well in the playoffs on average.</p>OK think of it like this, if our OL gives up 5 sacks in a game and all 5 came against Diehl does that mean that Diehl had a bad game or did the whole OL have a bad game?? By your line of reasoning it was the whole OL's fault that Eli got sacked 5x even though each sack was Diehls responsibility