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jhamburg
02-22-2012, 12:42 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

burier
02-22-2012, 12:45 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 12:49 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds

burier
02-22-2012, 01:07 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.

jhamburg
02-22-2012, 01:18 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.

We have a handful of rookies who were good enough to make the team and contribute last year. I don't think it's crazy that out of all of those guys one could step up in his second season and be a starter.

burier
02-22-2012, 01:22 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.

We have a handful of rookies who were good enough to make the team and contribute last year. I don't think it's crazy that out of all of those guys one could step up in his second season and be a starter.

Not crazy but what quality of starter are we talking about? I don't think Herzlich is going to be a world beater anytime soon

jhamburg
02-22-2012, 01:30 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.

We have a handful of rookies who were good enough to make the team and contribute last year. I don't think it's crazy that out of all of those guys one could step up in his second season and be a starter.

Not crazy but what quality of starter are we talking about? I don't think Herzlich is going to be a world beater anytime soon

No but the point I'm making is that with our defense, and the amount of time we are in Nickel, LB is not as important, and we can use a situational rotation of "specialist" type of players instead of having a do-everything MLB that weighs 250 lbs and runs a 4.4.

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 01:31 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn. I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion. His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 01:31 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn. I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion. His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.

jhamburg
02-22-2012, 01:37 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)*

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn.* I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion.* His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air* our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.


I forgot to leave him on but he should definitely be in the mix.

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 01:38 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn. I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion. His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.


I forgot to leave him on but he should definitely be in the mix.

He is also a positive force on STs

burier
02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.

We have a handful of rookies who were good enough to make the team and contribute last year. I don't think it's crazy that out of all of those guys one could step up in his second season and be a starter.

Not crazy but what quality of starter are we talking about? I don't think Herzlich is going to be a world beater anytime soon

No but the point I'm making is that with our defense, and the amount of time we are in Nickel, LB is not as important, and we can use a situational rotation of "specialist" type of players instead of having a do-everything MLB that weighs 250 lbs and runs a 4.4.

Teams are running the ball with 3 wides on the field. Your nickle backers need to play the run. I'm not saying you need Ray Lewis but damn...someone who can shoot a gap would be nice.

GGTM_1977
02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)*

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn.* I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion.* His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air* our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.


This, this, and more of this. I know Chase is not the "sexy" choice for MLB, but he came in and did a good job when we needed it most. Chase has been around for years, knows the defense, knows the signals, and plays his heart out for us. He is an every down guy, not very speedy, but plays good coverage, plays the run well, and deserves a legit shot at MLB.

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 01:56 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn. I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion. His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.


This, this, and more of this. I know Chase is not the "sexy" choice for MLB, but he came in and did a good job when we needed it most. Chase has been around for years, knows the defense, knows the signals, and plays his heart out for us. He is an every down guy, not very speedy, but plays good coverage, plays the run well, and deserves a legit shot at MLB.

I like Goff at MLB but he may need a year to get back to form. What better platoon partner to have than Blackburn?

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 01:57 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.What makes you say that Goff wont come back and pick up where he left off, its not like he's someone who gets hurt every season with a big injury

Before he left he was our on field DC, best run stopper, and arguably our best LB (and Im a leader of the Boley Bandwagon). The only difference between our D in 2010 and 2011 is that we were missing Goff and T2, with those 2 gone we dropped from a top 10 Defense to bottom 5 D

burier
02-22-2012, 02:03 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds


Right but you have to realize that Goff can no longer be counted on. There's no reason to think he's going to come back and pick up where he left off and he's that much more likely to get reinjured. Plus he wasn't exactly Butkis to begin with.What makes you say that Goff wont come back and pick up where he left off, its not like he's someone who gets hurt every season with a big injury

Before he left he was our on field DC, best run stopper, and arguably our best LB (and Im a leader of the Boley Bandwagon).* The only difference between our D in 2010 and 2011 is that we were missing Goff and T2, with those 2 gone we dropped from a top 10 Defense to bottom 5 D


The sooner you let go of T2 the better it will be..Second ACL Im not optomistic.

Best case scenario for Goff is he returns to being a decent run stopper in 2013-14.

What to do in the mean time?

NYG 5
02-22-2012, 02:07 PM
You know what Chase is? he reminds me of Mike Barrow. big, high intensity guy, not the fastest but gets to the football. you know what the difference is? Barrow was cursed with always letting guys get behind him in the clutch situations. Chase gets turnovers in clutch situations. he got that pick six going down the stretch his rookie season against the Skins (and almost got killed that game), he did it when he came off the street this year, did it on the biggest stage. he gets nicked up a lot, but damn the Giants if they don't keep him around. he brings leadership and intensity and is a great Giant, he's the David Diehl of linebackers.

that said, i think the Giants have a good pool of young, situational linebackers. Boley is your all down guy, you have Herz who can hopefully be that pass rushing run stopping backer, Williams who is the cover guy. i think the LB situation isn't as big of a pathetic question mark as it has been the best 3 years. good things can happen with them, and their depth allows Kiwi to put his hand on the turf more often.

also, why haven't they used Osi as the stand up rusher? to me, i think he would be better as that roaming rusher that they often have Tuck doing.

nygsb42champs
02-22-2012, 04:27 PM
What makes you think Goff will be ready and 100% ready to go for the season. It usually takes 2 full years to heal from knee surgery. Until we signed Blackburn looked how poor our LB play was.

myles2424
02-22-2012, 10:41 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom

JJC7301
02-23-2012, 12:23 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)
+1. I'm fine with it. And be sure to bring Blackburn back as well.

rainierjef
02-23-2012, 05:31 AM
Honestly, put kiwi hands back in the dirt.
start goff at SLB
Blackburn MLB
boley WLB

Williams, jones, herz, paysinger as depth

do we really need to draft a MLB this year at were we are drafting the best ones are gone and i want the best if their going to play the middle for years to come.

Teo next year lets get it

BlueBlooded1979
02-23-2012, 06:55 AM
Fewells defense does not rely heavily on LB play. They only need solid contributors (Blackburn) and specialists (Williams, Kiwi) for 2 of the 3 positions. Keep in mind that Boley is the MLB in almost all of the sub packages.

I think the only LB that could be on the board @ 32 that fits the scheme is Zach Brown. He is a faster Boley that would excel in Fewells defense.

gianttuffguy
02-23-2012, 09:01 AM
I say we let chase, goff battle n training camp wit herz as a backup but n all reality goff prolly not gun be the same so brong n a vet minimum player as depth as well im fine with chase starting actually if goff has any setbaks he has earnd it

Kruunch
02-23-2012, 09:20 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

I agree ... I think the Giants will stand pat with their current LBers. While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more play making talent there personally I think Reese (et al) will be satisfied with what they have.

Kase-1
02-23-2012, 11:23 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper. Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute. He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package

burier
02-23-2012, 11:51 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solos

Kase-1
02-23-2012, 12:11 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper. Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute. He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage. Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!? OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career

jhamburg
02-23-2012, 12:31 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

burier
02-23-2012, 05:25 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

burier
02-23-2012, 05:36 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


We're not going strickly by stats. Who said anything about that? I'm just pointing out that 54 tackles in 16 games is something you'd expect from a corner back. Not a Mike backer.

You're not alarmed by that stat?

What is this onfield DC stuff you keep talking about?

Before the season started JR and I assume someone with some stroke on the coaching staff has so little faith in Goff as the Mike backer that they signed and OLD INJURED Keith Bulluck to play Mike EVEN THOUGH THAT WASN'T HIS NATURAL POSITION!

Bulluck was so bad that Goff got the job by defualt and now he was the on field DC???

Give me a break dude every team has a player with a headset on D...You just get a green dot on your helmet you don't get a cookie.

The on field confusion is beside the point because thats old news now.

Of course there may be some adjustment issues if a player (ANY PLAYER) who was supposed to be in the lineup is suddenly not in the lineup.

The fact that the D was confused is by no way a device for praising Goff.

And after I showed you the guys tackle numbers you're really going to sit there and say that we couldn't stop the run because Goff wasn't playing???

I'm starting to think you ARE Goff.

jhamburg
02-23-2012, 06:52 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

Kase-1
02-23-2012, 07:18 PM
We're not going strickly by stats. Who said anything about that? I'm just pointing out that 54 tackles in 16 games is something you'd expect from a corner back. Not a Mike backer.

You're not alarmed by that stat?

What is this onfield DC stuff you keep talking about?

Before the season started JR and I assume someone with some stroke on the coaching staff has so little faith in Goff as the Mike backer that they signed and OLD INJURED Keith Bulluck to play Mike EVEN THOUGH THAT WASN'T HIS NATURAL POSITION!

Bulluck was so bad that Goff got the job by defualt and now he was the on field DC???

Give me a break dude every team has a player with a headset on D...You just get a green dot on your helmet you don't get a cookie.

The on field confusion is beside the point because thats old news now.

Of course there may be some adjustment issues if a player (ANY PLAYER) who was supposed to be in the lineup is suddenly not in the lineup.

The fact that the D was confused is by no way a device for praising Goff.

And after I showed you the guys tackle numbers you're really going to sit there and say that we couldn't stop the run because Goff wasn't playing???

I'm starting to think you ARE Goff.

How about Goff earned the job because he played well, you act like he was handed the job cause he was the only option that could walk and breathe at the same time.

Just because a player had the green dot doesnt mean a damned thing other than they have radio communication, it doesnt mean that they're calling out assignments or audibling plays at the line, something that Goff was doing back in 2010.

...And he had 80 tackles, 54 solo tackles, if you're gonna quote stats quote em right man

Here's a little snippet from Profootballfocus.com (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/06/secret-superstar-jonathan-goff-new-york-giants/)

"Goff exploded as a run defender in 2010. He had the same number of
defensive stops (37) as Bart Scott, our top ranked run-stopping inside
linebacker, despite playing almost 200 fewer snaps. He also made more
stops per tackle than studs like Patrick Willis and Brian Urlacher and
missed just two tackles on the year"

burier
02-24-2012, 11:04 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

Voldamort
02-24-2012, 11:08 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth) the problem with the Giants LBS none of them are sexy,not very many big plays but that crew are all interchangable that's one thing they have for them.

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

burier
02-24-2012, 11:16 AM
We're not going strickly by stats. Who said anything about that? I'm just pointing out that 54 tackles in 16 games is something you'd expect from a corner back. Not a Mike backer.

You're not alarmed by that stat?

What is this onfield DC stuff you keep talking about?

Before the season started JR and I assume someone with some stroke on the coaching staff has so little faith in Goff as the Mike backer that they signed and OLD INJURED Keith Bulluck to play Mike EVEN THOUGH THAT WASN'T HIS NATURAL POSITION!

Bulluck was so bad that Goff got the job by defualt and now he was the on field DC???

Give me a break dude every team has a player with a headset on D...You just get a green dot on your helmet you don't get a cookie.

The on field confusion is beside the point because thats old news now.

Of course there may be some adjustment issues if a player (ANY PLAYER) who was supposed to be in the lineup is suddenly not in the lineup.

The fact that the D was confused is by no way a device for praising Goff.

And after I showed you the guys tackle numbers you're really going to sit there and say that we couldn't stop the run because Goff wasn't playing???

I'm starting to think you ARE Goff.

How about Goff earned the job because he played well, you act like he was handed the job cause he was the only option that could walk and breathe at the same time.

Just because a player had the green dot doesnt mean a damned thing other than they have radio communication, it doesnt mean that they're calling out assignments or audibling plays at the line, something that Goff was doing back in 2010.

...And he had 80 tackles, 54 solo tackles, if you're gonna quote stats quote em right man

Here's a little snippet from Profootballfocus.com (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/06/secret-superstar-jonathan-goff-new-york-giants/)

"Goff exploded as a run defender in 2010. He had the same number of
defensive stops (37) as Bart Scott, our top ranked run-stopping inside
linebacker, despite playing almost 200 fewer snaps. He also made more
stops per tackle than studs like Patrick Willis and Brian Urlacher and
missed just two tackles on the year"


I stated quote "54 SOLO TACKLES"

Read much???

Profootballfocus can say whatever they want they are welcome to their opinion but the fact is 54 SOLO tackles for a mike is poor.

Not getting snaps indicates that you're not productive enough to justify getting snaps.

The last time we saw him play HE WASN'T BUSY ENOUGH!

We were all hoping that he would continue to improve but he tore his ACL instead so its time to think about other options.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 11:20 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

burier
02-24-2012, 11:26 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

Who gives a damn where he ranks in takles? Who said anything about rank...Willis had 74 solos. Who cares where he ranks?

74 tackles shows me a busy, productive player.

54 tackles shows me a non-productive player.

Edit: Here's some more stupid takle numbers for ya.

135
109
114
101

Those are Willis' Solo takle numbers 2007 to 2010. I'm pretty sure his tackle numbers are indicitive of the type of player he is.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 11:35 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

Who gives a damn where he ranks in takles? Who said anything about rank...Willis had 74 solos. Who cares where he ranks?

74 tackles shows me a busy, productive player.

54 tackles shows me a non-productive player.

Show me any reasonable stat where the best player in the league is 41st or worse. Is the best WR ever 41st in yards or TDs? Is the best pass rusher ever 41st in sacks?

burier
02-24-2012, 11:47 AM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

Who gives a damn where he ranks in takles? Who said anything about rank...Willis had 74 solos. Who cares where he ranks?

74 tackles shows me a busy, productive player.

54 tackles shows me a non-productive player.

Show me any reasonable stat where the best player in the league is 41st or worse. Is the best WR ever 41st in yards or TDs? Is the best pass rusher ever 41st in sacks?

You are missing the point.

First of all teams have what 3, maybe 4 guys who are likely to catch a pass on given play and that's only when pass play is Run.

on Defense there are 11 guys who can make a tackle regardless of weather the play is run or pass.

Same for sacks. The number of real participants to accumulate that stat is low compared to the people available to record a tackle.

4 or 5 or 6 guys tops can record a sack and they can only record a sack if the offense runs a pass play.

Meanwhile every defender can record a tackle on every play. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In the NFL you look for your QB to complete over 60% percent of his passes. Say Eli completes at 61% ranking him 12th in the league. He's obviously not the 12 best QB in the league.

Is completion percentage a dumb stat too?

like I said. Take a look at Willis' year to year tackle numbers and you see how productive he is regardless of where he ranks in that stat.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 01:20 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

Who gives a damn where he ranks in takles? Who said anything about rank...Willis had 74 solos. Who cares where he ranks?

74 tackles shows me a busy, productive player.

54 tackles shows me a non-productive player.

Show me any reasonable stat where the best player in the league is 41st or worse. Is the best WR ever 41st in yards or TDs? Is the best pass rusher ever 41st in sacks?

You are missing the point.

First of all teams have what 3, maybe 4 guys who are likely to catch a pass on given play and that's only when pass play is Run.

on Defense there are 11 guys who can make a tackle regardless of weather the play is run or pass.

Same for sacks. The number of real participants to accumulate that stat is low compared to the people available to record a tackle.

4 or 5 or 6 guys tops can record a sack and they can only record a sack if the offense runs a pass play.

Meanwhile every defender can record a tackle on every play. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In the NFL you look for your QB to complete over 60% percent of his passes. Say Eli completes at 61% ranking him 12th in the league. He's obviously not the 12 best QB in the league.

Is completion percentage a dumb stat too?


Yes it's a dumb stat, but not as bad a tackles. Any stat that doesn't very closely correlate with the top performers is obviously a bad way to judge them. I mean Josh Freeman was 8th, let's be serious now.

For example, if I was judging QBs by stats alone, I wouldn't even glance at completion%, I'd pay more attention to Yds/A.

burier
02-24-2012, 01:44 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)

proven not to work by our basement ranked defense.

As it currenlty stands. If Kiwi or Boley get hurt we become the worst defense in football.

need a real MLB.When we had a 'real MLB' like Goff our Defense was consistently ranked in the top 10, hell for alot of 2010 we were top 5 ranked Defense and the only difference between 2010 and 2011 was that we were missing our on-field DC in Jon Goff as well as our #2 CB with T2

We dont need another LB in the high rounds of the draft (Unless its Vontaze Burfict), if we do draft an LB I would like us to look at a boom or bust kind of guy in the middle rounds
first, you've given goff too much credit......second, goff is easily upgradable....third, he's a FA coming straight off IR....forth,has everyone forgot that Kiwi is a DE? A good one at that.....I wouldn't be mad if we added 2 LBs.....at this point, as far as our team strengths go Oline & Lbs are toward the bottom
How am I giving Goff too much credit, he WAS our on-field DC and best run stopper.* Just compare 2010 to last season, Goff and T2 were the only players we were missing and our D totally dropped off the face of the earth (until the end of the year)

Yes, he's upgradable, and so is every player who isnt the best player in the league at their position

Kiwi IS a damned good DE, but what we have with him right now is special, we can line him up with his hand in the dirt or at the SAM spot and he's gonna contribute.* He's not a coverage guy and will probably never be one, so lets have Boley and JQ Williams as our Nickel guys and keep Kiwi, Goff and Boley as our base 4-3 package


Again I want to stress that Goff is injured. We have no idea what production we're going to get out of him.

Second.

Last season Antrel Rolle had 82 solo tackles playing Safety/nickle/linebacker.

in 2010 Goff had 54 solo tackles at MIKE linebacker in a 16 game season in which he played every game.

That's pathetic tackle production for a middle linebacker and people are glamorizing his game because

1) Memory sucks

2) Glamorizing a few plays he made in the backfield.

He's NOT a real Mike linebacker. The hope was that he might take a step in 2011 but he got hurt instead.

WE NEED A MIDDLE LINEBACKER!!!

Edit: Michael Boley last season had 74 solos
Jwill 58 solosOK, I see we're going strictly by stats and not by actual game footage.* Just because someone leads the team in tackles doesnt mean they're the best run stopper or whatever else you're trying to prove

Im 'glamorizing' his game, because he was our on-field DC, do you remember all the on field confusion in the beginning of the season (without Goff)!?!?!?* OR do you remember every team running on us up the gut, the place where Goff would have been if he wasnt injured

I know I dont know for sure what we're gonna get with him, but he's not like T2 coming off multiple lower body injuries, this is his 1st injury of the sort dont act like he goes down annually with a torn ACL. You're making it seem like every player who comes off of an injury should just be cut cause they're never gonna have another good season in their career


And aside from tackles being a dumb meaningless stat, Goff wasn't playing as an every down linebacker and missed a ton of snaps.

So now tackles is a dumb stat?? Is that the game we're playing now?

Get real.

If anything diminishes the tackles stat its the fact that the numbers are USUALLY OVERBLOWN!

Meaning if we actually turned the tape and found discrepency it would be that Goff actually achieved fewer than 54 solos that season. And if he wasn't playing very many snaps I'm gonna go ahead and say that he was being taken out of the game for a reason.

So where's the evidence that we should be resting our hopes on this guy.

Tackles are a dumb stat, period. The fact that you make a tackle in no way indicates that you made a good play. I can see it being a good way to judge linemen because usually if a lineman makes a tackle it WAS a good play, but for anyone in the backfield it's nothing to be proud of.

You quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. Look of the tackle numbers for all of the best linebackers for the past 50 years.

1 tackle doesn't mean you made a good play necessarily but the accumulated number of tackles does speak to how productive the player is.

The fact that you would say that tackles is a dumb stat period may be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

For one thing, a lot of tackles means your team played a lot of defense which means your team sucked.

Patrick Willis was 41st in tackles last year. If the best player in the league is 41st in a stat, it's a dumb stat to judge that position.

Who gives a damn where he ranks in takles? Who said anything about rank...Willis had 74 solos. Who cares where he ranks?

74 tackles shows me a busy, productive player.

54 tackles shows me a non-productive player.

Show me any reasonable stat where the best player in the league is 41st or worse. Is the best WR ever 41st in yards or TDs? Is the best pass rusher ever 41st in sacks?

You are missing the point.

First of all teams have what 3, maybe 4 guys who are likely to catch a pass on given play and that's only when pass play is Run.

on Defense there are 11 guys who can make a tackle regardless of weather the play is run or pass.

Same for sacks. The number of real participants to accumulate that stat is low compared to the people available to record a tackle.

4 or 5 or 6 guys tops can record a sack and they can only record a sack if the offense runs a pass play.

Meanwhile every defender can record a tackle on every play. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In the NFL you look for your QB to complete over 60% percent of his passes. Say Eli completes at 61% ranking him 12th in the league. He's obviously not the 12 best QB in the league.

Is completion percentage a dumb stat too?


Yes it's a dumb stat, but not as bad a tackles. Any stat that doesn't very closely correlate with the top performers is obviously a bad way to judge them. I mean Josh Freeman was 8th, let's be serious now.

For example, if I was judging QBs by stats alone, I wouldn't even glance at completion%, I'd pay more attention to Yds/A.

yards per??? A stat that seriously favors west coast offenses and QBs who have big time YAC recievers?

Again I'm gonna say get real.

JPP
02-24-2012, 01:56 PM
I know everyone wants an every down MLB, but if we don't draft one I think we actually had a good thing going last season. What do you guys think about going forward with Boley as the only 3 down LB? Something like:

Base: Boley - Goff - Kiwi (with Herzlich and Jones as depth)

Nickel: Boley - Williams (with Paysinger as depth)*

This may be a stretch, but I don't think you can have a conversation about linebackers now without including Chase Blackburn.* I understand he was pulled in to fill a void, and fill it he did in exemplary fashion.* His first play. am interception and in his last game, the Super Bowl, another interception that sucked the air* our of Brady's sails.

If he isn't brought into camp to compete, I'll be very disappointed.


I forgot to leave him on but he should definitely be in the mix.

He is also a positive force on STs


Talk about a leader by example. Out of the classroom and onto the field without missing a beat and then straight on to the Superbowl. I would assume many of the players have a great deal of respect for him after this season, I know I do. IMO he exemplifies the qualities we want out of our linebackers, versatile, determined, hard working players and this is the 2nd SB in 5 seasons with that linebacker formula.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 01:58 PM
yards per??? A stat that seriously favors west coast offenses and QBs who have big time YAC recievers?

Again I'm gonna say get real.

Completion % favors WCO more than Yds/A does.

And just about every stat other than completion% gets help from YAC.

Every stat is flawed. Like I said, I prefer to use the stats that closely correlate with the top performers. Completion % is not one, and neither is tackles.

burier
02-24-2012, 02:05 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 02:13 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there.

But you're not reviewing all the information, you saying he sucks because he had 54 solo tackles...That's not information, that's noise.

burier
02-24-2012, 04:53 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there.

But you're not reviewing all the information, you saying he sucks because he had 54 solo tackles...That's not information, that's noise.

No I'm saying the 54 tackles is a serious red flag. I've already asked you specifically to point to anything he's done that might cause one to give him a pass for such a ridiculously low tackle number and all I get is that "Tackles is a stupid stat"

So what's a good stat? What stat can we look at?

He's got 54 solos a forced fumble and a sack.

I mean serisouly there's nothing he's got stat wise that jumps out in a postive way.

He's one stat that jumps out in a negative way.

You can't just fall in love with a guy because he made a couple takles in the backfield.

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there.

But you're not reviewing all the information, you saying he sucks because he had 54 solo tackles...That's not information, that's noise.

No I'm saying the 54 tackles is a serious red flag. I've already asked you specifically to point to anything he's done that might cause one to give him a pass for such a ridiculously low tackle number and all I get is that "Tackles is a stupid stat"

So what's a good stat? What stat can we look at?

He's got 54 solos a forced fumble and a sack.

I mean serisouly there's nothing he's got stat wise that jumps out in a postive way.

He's one stat that jumps out in a negative way.

You can't just fall in love with a guy because he made a couple takles in the backfield.

What stat can we look at? He plays for the Giants, you watch Giants games right? I use stats for teams and players that I don't watch. I don't need stats for the Giants.

Nobody needs to defend him for the number of tackles because LBs do not have a "tackle quota" the must reach. His job is to control gaps, handle his assignments, get off his blocks and yes, make plays whenever possible. If you think he has deficiencies in some or all of those areas, fine...but simply saying "he had 54 tackles!" is not a critique, per se.

burier
02-24-2012, 05:27 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there. But you're not reviewing all the information, you saying he sucks because he had 54 solo tackles...That's not information, that's noise. No I'm saying the 54 tackles is a serious red flag. I've already asked you specifically to point to anything he's done that might cause one to give him a pass for such a ridiculously low tackle number and all I get is that "Tackles is a stupid stat" So what's a good stat? What stat can we look at? He's got 54 solos a forced fumble and a sack. I mean serisouly there's nothing he's got stat wise that jumps out in a postive way. He's one stat that jumps out in a negative way. You can't just fall in love with a guy because he made a couple takles in the backfield. What stat can we look at? He plays for the Giants, you watch Giants games right? I use stats for teams and players that I don't watch. I don't need stats for the Giants. Nobody needs to defend him for the number of tackles because LBs do not have a "tackle quota" the must reach. His job is to control gaps, handle his assignments, get off his blocks and yes, make plays whenever possible. If you think he has deficiencies in some or all of those areas, fine...but simply saying "he had 54 tackles!" is not a critique, per se.</P>


You're trying to fault me for backing my opinion upwith facts.</P>


You wanna talkabout the eyeball test? Fine. </P>


I think the guy is slow. (Will now be slower)</P>


poor lateral movement keeps him from playing sideline to sideline in the NFL.</P>


He doesn't show the tenacity I look for out of linebackers.</P>


Doesn't show championship caliber instincts</P>


He showed some promise shooting a gap against the run but that will be two years old before we see him play again.</P>


</P>


a glance at his stats do not contradict my analysis.</P>


</P>

jhamburg
02-24-2012, 05:45 PM
Right so why discredit completion percentage? and west coast offenses are designed to optimize YAC opportunities so its all related. The point is you shouldn't be discrediting any stat. If your evaluating a player you should review all the information available to you to make a sound assesment. As it pertains to Johnathan Goff for some unknown reason people are creaming themselves over him despite his injury and despite him playing a signifcant role for just 1 season where he was completely underwhelming. Is everyone still high from the Superbowl or what? We need a real player back there. But you're not reviewing all the information, you saying he sucks because he had 54 solo tackles...That's not information, that's noise. No I'm saying the 54 tackles is a serious red flag. I've already asked you specifically to point to anything he's done that might cause one to give him a pass for such a ridiculously low tackle number and all I get is that "Tackles is a stupid stat" So what's a good stat? What stat can we look at? He's got 54 solos a forced fumble and a sack. I mean serisouly there's nothing he's got stat wise that jumps out in a postive way. He's one stat that jumps out in a negative way. You can't just fall in love with a guy because he made a couple takles in the backfield. What stat can we look at? He plays for the Giants, you watch Giants games right? I use stats for teams and players that I don't watch. I don't need stats for the Giants. Nobody needs to defend him for the number of tackles because LBs do not have a "tackle quota" the must reach. His job is to control gaps, handle his assignments, get off his blocks and yes, make plays whenever possible. If you think he has deficiencies in some or all of those areas, fine...but simply saying "he had 54 tackles!" is not a critique, per se.</P>


You're trying to fault me for backing my opinion up*with facts.</P>


You wanna talk*about the eyeball test? Fine. </P>


I think the guy is slow. (Will now be slower)</P>


poor lateral movement keeps him from playing sideline to sideline in the NFL.</P>


*He doesn't show the tenacity I look for out of linebackers.</P>


Doesn't show championship caliber instincts</P>


He showed some promise shooting a gap against the run but that will be two years old before we see him play again.</P>


*</P>


a glance at his stats do not contradict my analysis.</P>


*</P>

Fair enough