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Kase-1
02-22-2012, 03:10 PM
OK we've been having this debate in 'THEE Thread' about who is the better LT David Diehl or Will Beatty.

Yes, I understand that Double Deuce won 2 SBs with us, is a SUPER versatile OLman, an EXCELLENT teammate in the lockeroom, and one of the best OL we've had in Giants history, BUT...... In these past few seasons Diehl constantly is ranked among the worst OTs in the NFL year after year and we have a better LT with Will Beatty ready to go, hell in the 10 games he played this season he was killing it for us at LT

Now this isnt me bashing Diehl, cause thats laughable, he's one of my favorite Giants, but all im saying is that his best chance at starting next season is at RT, cause Beatty is the LT of the future

Here's a few articles that you guys may wanna reference
-3 year Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/15/three-year-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-linemen/)
- 2011 Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/)
-2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/)
Will Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/)
David Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/)

Once again this is about WHO THE BETTER LT is, not who is a better Giant, who won more SBs, or whatever BS you guys wanna toss into play

Discuss Amongst Yourselves.....
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KanRFQdfsoE/Scatsg3oJ0I/AAAAAAAACLE/8v0jbnIEwpQ/s400/Coffee_Talk_Linda_Richman.jpg

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:11 PM
honestly, its not even close. Beatty is a far far superior LT.

He was the starting LT until he got hurt, I see no reason why it should even be questioned at this point.

nygsb42champs
02-22-2012, 03:12 PM
There is something about Beatty that I just do not like. He just does not appear to be physical enough at the point of attack.

Spedracer
02-22-2012, 03:24 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

gmen46
02-22-2012, 03:28 PM
honestly, its not even close. Beatty is a far far superior LT.

He was the starting LT until he got hurt, I see no reason why it should even be questioned at this point.

Maybe because our run game improved by roughly 50% (give or take) after Beatty went down and DD moved over to LT.

I realize it wasn't that simple, because we can also say that Boothe and Petrus were better run blockers than Diehl had been at guard, when that change occurred, but even so.....at the very least, our pass game did not fall off to any noticeable degree and our run game improved when Diehl moved over.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:29 PM
Maybe because our run game improved by roughly 50% (give or take) after Beatty went down and DD moved over to LT..

the run game got worse after Beatty got hurt. Go check the stats.

As for the pass blocking, Diehl gave up more pressures/sacks/hits from his LG spot than Beatty gave up from LT.

When Diehl moved to LT, the LG position was much more solid pass blocking with Boothe in there.

At LT they gave Diehl constant help with double teams/chips, etc. And Eli still got pressured more after Beatty went down than he did with him. Eli had a remarkable season sensing pressure and getting the ball off fast.

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 03:40 PM
honestly, its not even close. Beatty is a far far superior LT.

He was the starting LT until he got hurt, I see no reason why it should even be questioned at this point.

Because run blocking on the left side was so bad, when we ran right our RBs were being tackled by the weakside DE (forget running left)? Just spit balling.

Beatty is decent at pass protection and absolutely horrid at run blocking.

Diehl is adequate at pass protection and good at run blocking.

I would also say that the aforementioned stats really only prove that the stats themselves are meaningless in this case. They had the Rams LT as the #1 in pass protection ... regardless of the fact that Bradford was running for his life on every snap and ultimately missed games due to injury from being knocked around.

Conversely, Diehl (who they have rated as dead last and second to last over the past 3 years) has won 2 Superbowls in 4 years, and been on a top 10 offense for 4 years in a row in a pass heavy offense.

Whether Diehl is better or worse then Beatty is a moot point ... the Giants offense has been shown to work better with Diehl. Until I see Diehl actually breaking down (and mind you he played this year with a broken hand), I don't see the need to replace him at LT (and Beatty needs to get a bunch tougher).

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Maybe because our run game improved by roughly 50% (give or take) after Beatty went down and DD moved over to LT..

the run game got worse after Beatty got hurt. Go check the stats.

As for the pass blocking, Diehl gave up more pressures/sacks/hits from his LG spot than Beatty gave up from LT.

When Diehl moved to LT, the LG position was much more solid pass blocking with Boothe in there.

At LT they gave Diehl constant help with double teams/chips, etc. And Eli still got pressured more after Beatty went down than he did with him. Eli had a remarkable season sensing pressure and getting the ball off fast.We were discussing this in THEE Thread so I did an avg of the avg, (LOL) of AB and BJ and this is what I got

Bradshaw
3.9ypc with Beatty
3.6ypc after Beatty

Jacobs
3.1ypc with Beatty
4.3ypc after Beatty

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:43 PM
They had the Rams LT as the #1 in pass protection ...

who is "they"?

Beatty already replaced Diehl.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:45 PM
We were discussing this in THEE Thread so I did an avg of the avg, (LOL) of AB and BJ and this is what I got

Bradshaw
3.9ypc with Beatty
3.6ypc after Beatty

Jacobs
3.1ypc with Beatty
4.3ypc after Beatty


Is that including playoffs as well?

Either way, the stats clearly do NOT show that the giants ran 50% better with Diehl at LT. Far from it, bradshaw ran better with Beatty at LT


In any case, Ill take the LT who can pass block over the run blocker any day. Protecting Eli is by far the most important thing this franchise can do.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 03:46 PM
honestly, its not even close. Beatty is a far far superior LT.

He was the starting LT until he got hurt, I see no reason why it should even be questioned at this point.

Because run blocking on the left side was so bad, when we ran right our RBs were being tackled by the weakside DE (forget running left)? Just spit balling.

Beatty is decent at pass protection and absolutely horrid at run blocking.

Diehl is adequate at pass protection and good at run blocking.

I would also say that the aforementioned stats really only prove that the stats themselves are meaningless in this case. They had the Rams LT as the #1 in pass protection ... regardless of the fact that Bradford was running for his life on every snap and ultimately missed games due to injury from being knocked around.

Conversely, Diehl (who they have rated as dead last and second to last over the past 3 years) has won 2 Superbowls in 4 years, and been on a top 10 offense for 4 years in a row in a pass heavy offense.

Whether Diehl is better or worse then Beatty is a moot point ... the Giants offense has been shown to work better with Diehl. Until I see Diehl actually breaking down (and mind you he played this year with a broken hand), I don't see the need to replace him at LT (and Beatty needs to get a bunch tougher).But that doesnt mean the pressure was coming from the LT, if anything it says he was one of the only guys doing his job on the OL

Actually the point of who is better at LT between Beatty and Diehl is not moot, cause this is a message board where we discuss football, its not like JReese is gonna see this and realize he's been wrong, we're simply fans discussing our team in the offseason..... Ya party pooper!!!!
http://www.dedleg.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/arnold_schwarzenegger_in_kindergarten_cop.jpg

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 03:46 PM
We were discussing this in THEE Thread so I did an avg of the avg, (LOL) of AB and BJ and this is what I got

Bradshaw
3.9ypc with Beatty
3.6ypc after Beatty

Jacobs
3.1ypc with Beatty
4.3ypc after Beatty


Is that including playoffs as well?

Either way, the stats clearly do NOT show that the giants ran 50% better with Diehl at LT. Far from it, bradshaw ran better with Beatty at LTNope just regular season

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 03:47 PM
Maybe because our run game improved by roughly 50% (give or take) after Beatty went down and DD moved over to LT..

the run game got worse after Beatty got hurt. Go check the stats.


No they didn't. We gained 20 yards per game average after Beatty went down (granted, most of this I attribute to Bradshaw coming back but still there was an overlap of bad vs. good run blocking with and without Beatty there).




As for the pass blocking, Diehl gave up more pressures/sacks/hits from his LG spot than Beatty gave up from LT.


Worst stat ever. Trying to assign specific pressures and sacks to the LG position is just stupid. Tackles you can see clearly, but guards (and centers) always have a left/right counterpart that aids in that stat (and is not recorded).



When Diehl moved to LT, the LG position was much more solid pass blocking with Boothe in there.


Again, bad stat as the LG isn't the lynch-pin for pass blocking.



At LT they gave Diehl constant help with double teams/chips, etc. And Eli still got pressured more after Beatty went down than he did with him. Eli had a remarkable season sensing pressure and getting the ball off fast.

You forgot to mention that the VAST majority oif pressures came from the right side (KM's responsbility)

They were also chipping more to the right then left when opposing teams weren't blitzing the left side (just an FYI).

.

PRFan
02-22-2012, 03:49 PM
Beatty all day. I think Diehl is done with the Giants or back at vet min.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:50 PM
No they didn't. We gained 20 yards per game average after Beatty went down (granted, most of this I attribute to Bradshaw coming back but still there was an overlap of bad vs. good run blocking with and without Beatty there).

Bradshaw + Beatty = higher ypc than Bradshaw - Beatty. How many yards per game is meaningless, because that is a function of how many carries they had.



Worst stat ever. Trying to assign specific pressures and sacks to the LG position is just stupid. Tackles you can see clearly, but guards (and centers) always have a left/right counterpart that aids in that stat (and is not recorded).
Only because it doesnt suit your argument.


Again, bad stat as the LG isn't the lynch-pin for pass blocking.
Nope, the LT is, which is why Diehl should absolutely never play LT again.



You forgot to mention that the VAST majority oif pressures came from the right side (KM's responsbility)
Nobody is making excuses for McKenzie, and nobody is arguing that he should start either. Both Diehl and McKenzie were absolutely brutal last year.


They were also chipping more to the right then left when opposing teams weren't blitzing the left side (just an FYI).
Not in the playoffs.

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 03:56 PM
We were discussing this in THEE Thread so I did an avg of the avg, (LOL) of AB and BJ and this is what I got

Bradshaw
3.9ypc with Beatty
3.6ypc after Beatty

Jacobs
3.1ypc with Beatty
4.3ypc after Beatty


Is that including playoffs as well?

Either way, the stats clearly do NOT show that the giants ran 50% better with Diehl at LT. Far from it, bradshaw ran better with Beatty at LT


In any case, Ill take the LT who can pass block over the run blocker any day. Protecting Eli is by far the most important thing this franchise can do.

Through Week 11:

Avg Rush / Game: 83.2

From Week 12 on (including playoffs):

Avg Rush / Game: 106.1

Nuff said.

jhamburg
02-22-2012, 03:58 PM
I think the people arguing for Diehl are biased by the fact that they like him in general. He's a fun guy to root for, been a Giant for many years, 2x super bowl winner, good leader, locker room guy, etc. Who wouldn't want a guy like that to succeed?

That's the only way I can explain someone who has been watching him play all season believing that he did even a passable job at LT or LG.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 03:58 PM
Through Week 11:

Avg Rush / Game: 83.2

From Week 12 on (including playoffs):

Avg Rush / Game: 106.1

Nuff said.

which doesnt take into account attempts per game.

Nuff said.

YPC is a more useful stat.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:01 PM
I think the people arguing for Diehl are biased by the fact that they like him in general. He's a fun guy to root for, been a Giant for many years, 2x super bowl winner, good leader, locker room guy, etc. Who wouldn't want a guy like that to succeed?

That's the only way I can explain someone who has been watching him play all season believing that he did even a passable job at LT or LG.

agreed.

Spedracer
02-22-2012, 04:03 PM
No one in their 'right' mind can say that Diehl did a better job at T than Beatty. I like Diehl from a locker room standpoint but he is just good depth at this stage of his career.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

thats actually factually incorrect...

the 4 games that Diehl missed we average 4.6 a carry and 141 yards per game and without him we averaged 4.5 a carry and 122 yards per game

this year when Diehl moved to tackle we average 50 more yards a game, .8 more ypc, and .7 less sacks a game...

just statistically speaking

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:05 PM
No they didn't. We gained 20 yards per game average after Beatty went down (granted, most of this I attribute to Bradshaw coming back but still there was an overlap of bad vs. good run blocking with and without Beatty there).

Bradshaw + Beatty = higher ypc than Bradshaw - Beatty. How many yards per game is meaningless, because that is a function of how many carries they had.



You do understand that Bradshaw isn't our only running back right?

And that total rush yards in a game has A LOT more relevance than yards per carry average.






Worst stat ever. Trying to assign specific pressures and sacks to the LG position is just stupid. Tackles you can see clearly, but guards (and centers) always have a left/right counterpart that aids in that stat (and is not recorded).
Only because it doesnt suit your argument.


Mostly because it doesn't support reality. We've had a Top 10 offense 4 years in a row on a pass heavy team. You think we did all that with a really bad LT? lawl




Again, bad stat as the LG isn't the lynch-pin for pass blocking.
Nope, the LT is, which is why Diehl should absolutely never play LT again.


I'd buy that if Eli was one of the most sacked QBs in the league. He's actually one the least sacked.

And if he's getting so many hurries and pressures, then I'd say keep em coming ... he threw for 5k yards this year http://boards.giants.com/emoticons/emotion-4.gif





You forgot to mention that the VAST majority oif pressures came from the right side (KM's responsbility)
Nobody is making excuses for McKenzie, and nobody is arguing that he should start either. Both Diehl and McKenzie were absolutely brutal last year.


They were also chipping more to the right then left when opposing teams weren't blitzing the left side (just an FYI).
Not in the playoffs.

Yes ... in the play offs ... they were. Obviously so (it even made a highlight or two).

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:06 PM
All I was asking was who is the better Left Tackle. I think I can speak for the majority when I say DD is a great Giant, a team/fan favorite, TOTALLY deserving of his 2 SB rings, and should finish his career as a Giant

Only question is about on field play, Who performs better on the field as a Left Tackle

....Im LOVIN this debate so far

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:07 PM
Maybe because our run game improved by roughly 50% (give or take) after Beatty went down and DD moved over to LT..

the run game got worse after Beatty got hurt. Go check the stats.

As for the pass blocking, Diehl gave up more pressures/sacks/hits from his LG spot than Beatty gave up from LT.

When Diehl moved to LT, the LG position was much more solid pass blocking with Boothe in there.

At LT they gave Diehl constant help with double teams/chips, etc. And Eli still got pressured more after Beatty went down than he did with him. Eli had a remarkable season sensing pressure and getting the ball off fast.

when Diehl was at tackle we averaged .8 more per carry and 16 more yards per game rushing... fail to see what stats you are checking

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:07 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

thats actually factually incorrect...

the 4 games that Diehl missed we average 4.6 a carry and 141 yards per game and without him we averaged 4.5 a carry and 122 yards per game

this year when Diehl moved to tackle we average 50 more yards a game, .8 more ypc, and .7 less sacks a game...

just statistically speaking
Look who loves stats all of a sudden

[;)]

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:08 PM
honestly, its not even close. Beatty is a far far superior LT.

He was the starting LT until he got hurt, I see no reason why it should even be questioned at this point.

Because run blocking on the left side was so bad, when we ran right our RBs were being tackled by the weakside DE (forget running left)? Just spit balling.

Beatty is decent at pass protection and absolutely horrid at run blocking.

Diehl is adequate at pass protection and good at run blocking.

I would also say that the aforementioned stats really only prove that the stats themselves are meaningless in this case. They had the Rams LT as the #1 in pass protection ... regardless of the fact that Bradford was running for his life on every snap and ultimately missed games due to injury from being knocked around.

Conversely, Diehl (who they have rated as dead last and second to last over the past 3 years) has won 2 Superbowls in 4 years, and been on a top 10 offense for 4 years in a row in a pass heavy offense.

Whether Diehl is better or worse then Beatty is a moot point ... the Giants offense has been shown to work better with Diehl. Until I see Diehl actually breaking down (and mind you he played this year with a broken hand), I don't see the need to replace him at LT (and Beatty needs to get a bunch tougher).

exactly

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:08 PM
when Diehl was at tackle we averaged .8 more per carry and 16 more yards per game rushing... fail to see what stats you are checking


Comparing bradshaw to bradshaw. Jacobs very rarely runs outside the tackle, so Bradshaw is a better indication.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:09 PM
We were discussing this in THEE Thread so I did an avg of the avg, (LOL) of AB and BJ and this is what I got

Bradshaw
3.9ypc with Beatty
3.6ypc after Beatty

Jacobs
3.1ypc with Beatty
4.3ypc after Beatty


Is that including playoffs as well?

Either way, the stats clearly do NOT show that the giants ran 50% better with Diehl at LT. Far from it, bradshaw ran better with Beatty at LT


In any case, Ill take the LT who can pass block over the run blocker any day. Protecting Eli is by far the most important thing this franchise can do.

we were just basing off of regular season

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:09 PM
Mostly because it doesn't support reality. We've had a Top 10 offense 4 years in a row on a pass heavy team. You think we did all that with a really bad LT? lawl


Absolutely. Unless you think Peyton Manning has had a top offensive line as well.

Eli and Peyton are great at sensing pressure and getting the ball off. That doesnt change the fact that Eli was one of the most pressured/hit QBs in the league.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:11 PM
No they didn't. We gained 20 yards per game average after Beatty went down (granted, most of this I attribute to Bradshaw coming back but still there was an overlap of bad vs. good run blocking with and without Beatty there).

Bradshaw + Beatty = higher ypc than Bradshaw - Beatty. How many yards per game is meaningless, because that is a function of how many carries they had.



Worst stat ever. Trying to assign specific pressures and sacks to the LG position is just stupid. Tackles you can see clearly, but guards (and centers) always have a left/right counterpart that aids in that stat (and is not recorded).
Only because it doesnt suit your argument.


Again, bad stat as the LG isn't the lynch-pin for pass blocking.
Nope, the LT is, which is why Diehl should absolutely never play LT again.



You forgot to mention that the VAST majority oif pressures came from the right side (KM's responsbility)
Nobody is making excuses for McKenzie, and nobody is arguing that he should start either. Both Diehl and McKenzie were absolutely brutal last year.


They were also chipping more to the right then left when opposing teams weren't blitzing the left side (just an FYI).
Not in the playoffs.

we averaged 26 carries a game with Beatty at tackle and 25 with Diehl

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:11 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:14 PM
I think the people arguing for Diehl are biased by the fact that they like him in general. He's a fun guy to root for, been a Giant for many years, 2x super bowl winner, good leader, locker room guy, etc. Who wouldn't want a guy like that to succeed?

That's the only way I can explain someone who has been watching him play all season believing that he did even a passable job at LT or LG.

agreed.

I actually disagree because if I was a fan of anybody more going into this season it was Beatty by a long shot.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:15 PM
I actually disagree because if I was a fan of anybody more going into this season it was Beatty by a long shot.*


I dont see how you can look at the pressures/hits Diehl gave up at LT and LG and conclude that he is remotely even in the same league as Beatty.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:15 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

thats actually factually incorrect...

the 4 games that Diehl missed we average 4.6 a carry and 141 yards per game and without him we averaged 4.5 a carry and 122 yards per game

this year when Diehl moved to tackle we average 50 more yards a game, .8 more ypc, and .7 less sacks a game...

just statistically speaking
Look who loves stats all of a sudden

[;)]


well he was saying the run game was better... i would assume he was speaking off stats... if he wasn't i apologize

Spedracer
02-22-2012, 04:16 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

thats actually factually incorrect...

the 4 games that Diehl missed we average 4.6 a carry and 141 yards per game and without him we averaged 4.5 a carry and 122 yards per game

this year when Diehl moved to tackle we average 50 more yards a game, .8 more ypc, and .7 less sacks a game...

just statistically speaking


With all due respect, watch the games Bud.

Stats don't take missed tackles and blown run fills into account. YPG and YPC tell half the story. Game tape tells all.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:16 PM
when Diehl was at tackle we averaged .8 more per carry and 16 more yards per game rushing... fail to see what stats you are checking


Comparing bradshaw to bradshaw. Jacobs very rarely runs outside the tackle, so Bradshaw is a better indication.

talk about a jaded stat. Then give me the break down of runs to the left outside then.

what your doing is just twisting stats to try and make an argument. If u want to correctly represent your position u have to get the statistical break down of off tackle runs to the left tackle spot

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:17 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

Beatty at left tackle we averaged 2 sacks per game

With Diehl at left tackle we average 1.3

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Mostly because it doesn't support reality. We've had a Top 10 offense 4 years in a row on a pass heavy team. You think we did all that with a really bad LT? lawl


Absolutely. Unless you think Peyton Manning has had a top offensive line as well.

Eli and Peyton are great at sensing pressure and getting the ball off. That doesnt change the fact that Eli was one of the most pressured/hit QBs in the league.Over the past 2 seasons Eli's pocket awareness has gone THROUGH THE ROOF!!!!

Watching him decipher the pass rush and the pocket protection is amazing, its like he's watching the game in slow motion

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:18 PM
I actually disagree because if I was a fan of anybody more going into this season it was Beatty by a long shot.


I dont see how you can look at the pressures/hits Diehl gave up at LT and LG and conclude that he is remotely even in the same league as Beatty.

Because Beatty wasn't as great at pass blocking as your suggesting - the run blocking was a huge difference...

the success, speaks for itself

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:18 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.LT's main responsibility = Protect the QBs Blindside

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:19 PM
what your doing is just twisting stats to try and make an argument.

Im twisting stats? Just look at PFF! Diehl was the worst LG in the league, then moved to LT where he was the worst LT in the league.

But you want to come in and claim because the giants ran the ball better after Beatty got hurt and Diehl switched positions that Diehl should be the starter at LT?

Thats the most nonsensical argument Ive ever heard in my life.

LT is the LEAST important position on the OL in terms of running the ball. LG is far far more important, how about we analyze why the inside running game with Jacobs improved once Diehl was moved out of his guard spot and Boothe took over?

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:19 PM
I think the people arguing for Diehl are biased by the fact that they like him in general. He's a fun guy to root for, been a Giant for many years, 2x super bowl winner, good leader, locker room guy, etc. Who wouldn't want a guy like that to succeed?

That's the only way I can explain someone who has been watching him play all season believing that he did even a passable job at LT or LG.

agreed.

I actually disagree because if I was a fan of anybody more going into this season it was Beatty by a long shot.
That IS true, MMB was a Beatty fan coming into this season

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:20 PM
Because Beatty wasn't as great at pass blocking as your suggesting - the run blocking was a huge difference...

the success, speaks for itself


He was the best pass blocker on the OL last season by a significant margin. And hes a better run blocker than you think.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:21 PM
when Diehl was at tackle we averaged .8 more per carry and 16 more yards per game rushing... fail to see what stats you are checking


Comparing bradshaw to bradshaw. Jacobs very rarely runs outside the tackle, so Bradshaw is a better indication.

talk about a jaded stat. Then give me the break down of runs to the left outside then.

<font size="5">what your doing is just twisting stats to try and make an argument</font>. If u want to correctly represent your position u have to get the statistical break down of off tackle runs to the left tackle spot
Sounds like someone I know, LOL

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:22 PM
I believe in pass protection Beatty is unquestionably better. Just watch the games. On top of that, in 2011 and especially 2010 the run game was better without Diehl in the lineup. Beatty and Booth are a good T/G combo from what I have seen.

thats actually factually incorrect...

the 4 games that Diehl missed we average 4.6 a carry and 141 yards per game and without him we averaged 4.5 a carry and 122 yards per game

this year when Diehl moved to tackle we average 50 more yards a game, .8 more ypc, and .7 less sacks a game...

just statistically speaking


With all due respect, watch the games Bud.

Stats don't take missed tackles and blown run fills into account. YPG and YPC tell half the story. Game tape tells all.

i agree with you sped.. but your the one that said the run game was better so i just responded t othat aspect of it...

I agree that stats are hard thing to press in this argument as well, but theres no way we can watch film together. I wish some of u guys could get to my house and rewatch the games on the tuesday after when I do, but I didn't know any of these stats before today the debate began. Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty. I would of told you that off the cuff.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:23 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

Beatty at left tackle we averaged 2 sacks per game

With Diehl at left tackle we average 1.3
Individually speaking,

This past season Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/) gave up 3.5 sacks, Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/) gave up 6.5

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:24 PM
Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty.* I would of told you that off the cuff.



This is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually watched Diehl could say this.

Spedracer
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

Beatty at left tackle we averaged 2 sacks per game

With Diehl at left tackle we average 1.3
Individually speaking,

This past season Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/) gave up 3.5 sacks, Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/) gave up 6.5





Is there a reason to speak otherwise? If anything most of the sacks that came while Beatty was in the lineup were likely from Baas or McKenzie...

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
LT is the LEAST important position on the OL in terms of running the ball. LG is far far more important It depends who is running and what play/where we are running/who is pulling/etc

Pass Protection-wise, with a right handed QB, LT is hands down the most important position on the OL

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Is there a reason to speak otherwise? If anything most of the sacks that came while Beatty was in the lineup were likely from Baas or McKenzie...

Or Diehl at LG.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:26 PM
what your doing is just twisting stats to try and make an argument.

Im twisting stats? Just look at PFF! Diehl was the worst LG in the league, then moved to LT where he was the worst LT in the league.

But you want to come in and claim because the giants ran the ball better after Beatty got hurt and Diehl switched positions that Diehl should be the starter at LT?

Thats the most nonsensical argument Ive ever heard in my life.

LT is the LEAST important position on the OL in terms of running the ball. LG is far far more important, how about we analyze why the inside running game with Jacobs improved once Diehl was moved out of his guard spot and Boothe took over?

PFF is a great concept, but fails in accuracy.

Don't ever quote to me that website and expect to gain any ground in a debate wtih me. I've come across too much garbage from them.

And I AGREE he was BRUTAL at LG.

you say its the least important but the change brought better protection and run production.

and yes ur stat is jaded and i explained why, but u cut it off and only took one line of my response

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:29 PM
And I AGREE he was BRUTAL at LG.

you say its the least important but the change brought better protection and run production.*

and yes ur stat is jaded and i explained why, but u cut it off and only took one line of my response


Boothe outplayed Diehl at LG.
Beatty outplayed Diehl at LT.

Theres nothing else to argue.

Theres one thing to be said when PFF fails at things like analyzing safety play, when you cant see it on TV. I understand that.

But you could clearly see Diehl getting manhandled every week at both guard and tackle. He was absolutely horrific.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:31 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

Beatty at left tackle we averaged 2 sacks per game

With Diehl at left tackle we average 1.3
Individually speaking,

This past season Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/) gave up 3.5 sacks, Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/) gave up 6.5




and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty. I would of told you that off the cuff.



This is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually watched Diehl could say this.

true, i just watch the jets games and then guess the giants games

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:33 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:33 PM
And I AGREE he was BRUTAL at LG.

you say its the least important but the change brought better protection and run production.

and yes ur stat is jaded and i explained why, but u cut it off and only took one line of my response


Boothe outplayed Diehl at LG.
Beatty outplayed Diehl at LT.

Theres nothing else to argue.

Theres one thing to be said when PFF fails at things like analyzing safety play, when you cant see it on TV. I understand that.

But you could clearly see Diehl getting manhandled every week at both guard and tackle. He was absolutely horrific.

Boothe outplayed Diehl at guard

Diehl outplayed Beatty

u can argue it all you want - wont make it true

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:33 PM
I still find it amusing that people honestly want Diehl to start because the "run blocking is improved". Even if it was true, which it isnt, dont you think pass blocking is the more important aspect for a left tackle? Thats the least important position on the OL in terms of run blocking.

Beatty at left tackle we averaged 2 sacks per game

With Diehl at left tackle we average 1.3
Individually speaking,

This past season Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/) gave up 3.5 sacks, Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/) gave up 6.5





Is there a reason to speak otherwise? If anything most of the sacks that came while Beatty was in the lineup were likely from Baas or McKenzie...I speak otherwise cause we're discussing Beatty vs Diehl at LT

We're not talking other players or positions, even though Baas only let up 2 sacks (WTF, thats insane, I thought he played MUCH worse, LOL, none the less he sucks in the run game) KMack let up 6.5 sacks and ranked (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/) 63rd out of 75

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:34 PM
u can argue it all you want - wont make it true




only in reality. to anyone who watched Diehl play.

Apparently you were watching the receivers or TEs or something.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:34 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:35 PM
u can argue it all you want - wont make it true




only in reality. to anyone who watched Diehl play.

Apparently you were watching something else during games.

yea... like what actually happens

Spedracer
02-22-2012, 04:35 PM
Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty.* I would of told you that off the cuff.



This is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually watched Diehl could say this.

true, i just watch the jets games and then guess the giants games


Sure sounds like it. Please do yourself a favor and pick up Game Rewind from NFL.com and watch Diehl. There's no question in my mind he is a liability anywhere on the line. 2 years straight.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:36 PM
>no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:36 PM
And I AGREE he was BRUTAL at LG.

you say its the least important but the change brought better protection and run production.

and yes ur stat is jaded and i explained why, but u cut it off and only took one line of my response


Boothe outplayed Diehl at LG.
Beatty outplayed Diehl at LT.

Theres nothing else to argue.

Theres one thing to be said when PFF fails at things like analyzing safety play, when you cant see it on TV. I understand that.

But you could clearly see Diehl getting manhandled every week at both guard and tackle. He was absolutely horrific.I hate trying to analyze DB play on TV, its nearly impossible, thats why I love going to games and sitting midfield in the 300s, I can see 2ndary play and how people play away from the ball

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty. I would of told you that off the cuff.



This is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually watched Diehl could say this.

true, i just watch the jets games and then guess the giants games


Sure sounds like it. Please do yourself a favor and pick up Game Rewind from NFL.com and watch Diehl. There's no question in my mind he is a liability anywhere on the line. 2 years straight.

he def had a bad year last year, i wasn't saying he didnt

what I did say was that whatever point u made about when he was gone in the running game last year was factually inaccurate

the 6 games he stepped up for us this season he did great....

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Diehl did a great job at tackle for us this year and out performed Beatty. I would of told you that off the cuff.



This is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually watched Diehl could say this.

true, i just watch the jets games and then guess the giants games
I KNEW IT!!!!!!!

HE'S A TROLL!!!!!
















[;)]

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:38 PM
the 6 games he stepped up for us this season he did great....


great as in the worst pass blocking LT in the league?

Or perhaps you are trying to give Diehl credit for Boothe coming in and helping the run game. Since Diehl certainly couldnt run block from his LG spot.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:38 PM
&gt;no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

no he had an awful in 2010 and we didn't know what we had in boothe

it was time to give Beatty a shot. Only way we're going to have this settled is this year when we see whose still playing

buddy33
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Without stats in front of me all I can remember from this season is that Beatty was not as bad as some are making him out to be and no way was he worse than Diehl.

It's not bashing the guy because everyone likes him, but he was not very good this year and he is due to make a lot of money. What saved Eli this year was Eli and his ability to avoid, and even take, some sacks.

I like Beatty and hope he can play good this year again. Also hoping that Petrus and Brewer can be big parts of the OL and maybe they won't be in as much trouble as some think.

I always liked Boothe.

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Mostly because it doesn't support reality. We've had a Top 10 offense 4 years in a row on a pass heavy team. You think we did all that with a really bad LT? lawl


Absolutely. Unless you think Peyton Manning has had a top offensive line as well.

Eli and Peyton are great at sensing pressure and getting the ball off. That doesnt change the fact that Eli was one of the most pressured/hit QBs in the league.

No ... that just makes no sense.

Eli is good at getting out of trouble yes, but you don't have (according to Kase-1's stats) the worst LT in the NFL and be (consistantly) one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL over that span.

And Eli gets "hurries" and pressures because he holds the ball so long. Conversely, Peyton was always a machinegun, getting rid of the ball ultra fast (not to mention that he's THE adjust-at-the-line QB ... ever).

I'm not trying to paint Diehl as the second coming of the LT position ... but I'm also not willing to concede that he's actually a *bad* LT (much less the worst one).

I think Diehl suffers from the same perceptions that Ross suffered from in terms of tackling. Ross had two really bad open field whiffs and was labeled as a bad tackler, when in actuality, he's one of the better tackling CBs in the league.

Accordingly, Diehl once in awhile will totally whiff on a speed rush. Because of that, he's labeled as one of the worst pass protectors in the league. It just isn't factually accurate as the results of the offense have proven time and again.

Mind you, this anti-Diehl sentiment has been around since they installed him at LT because he was seen as an OG playing out of position and not a "real" LT. In 2007 we win the SB and everyone quiets down a tad (and people still clamored to replace him in 2008). In 2008 we have a top 10 offense (both running and passing) and win the first seed. People are mollified. In 2009 and 2010 we have subpar years (both being attributed to defensive failures mostly) and everyone wants Diehl replaced (even though in those years we still maintained a Top 10 offense).

In 2011 we win the Super Bowl, with said horrible LT ... and yet again people are clamoring for him to be replaced.

I submit you wouldn't know a quality LT if it bit you in the ***.

If you want to replace Diehl, do it with a quality LT. I think Beatty is half of a quality LT .... and not the answer.

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
There is something about Beatty that I just do not like. He just does not appear to be physical enough at the point of attack.He's got the long arms, quickness and good footwork that Diehl does not have at this point.</P>


</P>


I know what you are saying, but I think Beatty can continue to get stronger in the weightroom. His technique continues to improve as well.</P>


</P>

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
no he had an awful in 2010

and he certainly didnt improve this season, at guard or tackle.

Time for Diehl to get the axe.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:45 PM
No ... that just makes no sense.

Eli is good at getting out of trouble yes, but you don't have (according to Kase-1's stats) the worst LT in the NFL and be (consistantly) one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL over that span.


absolutely you do. Look at Peyton.

in 2010, #1 in sacks allowed
in 2009 #1 in sacks allowed
in 2008 #1 in sacks allowed

You're telling me Peyton Manning has had a great OL?

This year Indy was 18th in pass blocking, despite drafting a LT and guard who were both immediate starters because they were substantially better than the players they replaced.

I think anyone who watches the Colts at all will tell you in seasons past they have had one of the worst offensive lines in football.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:45 PM
Without stats in front of me all I can remember from this season is that Beatty was not as bad as some are making him out to be and no way was he worse than Diehl.

It's not bashing the guy because everyone likes him, but he was not very good this year and he is due to make a lot of money. What saved Eli this year was Eli and his ability to avoid, and even take, some sacks.

I like Beatty and hope he can play good this year again. Also hoping that Petrus and Brewer can be big parts of the OL and maybe they won't be in as much trouble as some think.

I always liked Boothe.Stats are posted in links on the original post

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:46 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

I was talking about only the regular season.

None of the stats posted have reflected the playoffs.

buddy33
02-22-2012, 04:49 PM
Without stats in front of me all I can remember from this season is that Beatty was not as bad as some are making him out to be and no way was he worse than Diehl.

It's not bashing the guy because everyone likes him, but he was not very good this year and he is due to make a lot of money. What saved Eli this year was Eli and his ability to avoid, and even take, some sacks.

I like Beatty and hope he can play good this year again. Also hoping that Petrus and Brewer can be big parts of the OL and maybe they won't be in as much trouble as some think.

I always liked Boothe.Stats are posted in links on the original post


I know. Lol. I was just saying from what I remember watching. I remember a lot on this board saying how well he did against some very good pass rushers early on. It well seemed like DD was getting beat all the time. That is just how it seems to me from watching the games and not reading the stats. Beatty seems to be the better LT.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:49 PM
&gt;no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

i keep trying to search for your pressure stats that shows Diehl gave up 30 pressures in 6 games at LT, but I can't find it.

you've already misquoted the sack stat and then argued it and were wrong about DIehl giving up 6.5 sacks only at the tackle position

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:51 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

we were just going off of the regular season games to be fair

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:51 PM
No ... that just makes no sense.

Eli is good at getting out of trouble yes, but you don't have (according to Kase-1's stats) the worst LT in the NFL and be (consistantly) one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL over that span.


absolutely you do. Look at Peyton.

in 2010, #1 in sacks allowed
in 2009 #1 in sacks allowed
in 2008 #1 in sacks allowed

You're telling me Peyton Manning has had a great OL?

This year Indy was 18th in pass blocking, despite drafting a LT and guard who were both immediate starters because they were substantially better than the players they replaced.

I think anyone who watches the Colts at all will tell you in seasons past they have had one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I won't disagree with the Colts having a bad offensive line (generally speaking).

However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both).

That right there is a cause for your "pressures" and "hurries" (and why I call them a meaningless stat since they're self inflicted by the QB, not the Oline most times).

The fact that Eli is sacked so seldomly and maintains a high completion percentage, yardage and yards per completion average, tells me that the Oline (and specifically the LT) are doing their jobs correctly.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:51 PM
That is just how it seems to me from watching the games and not reading the stats. Beatty seems to be the better LT.

Yep. And from watching games early in the season, I can tell you that Diehl was the worst player on the OL at the beginning of the year as well. His struggles at LG are well documented.

Beatty may have been even better with a more capable guard next to him.


And according to PFF, the giants average 2.5 ypc on runs up the middle. The worst in the league. Id say that is a guard issue far more than Beatty cant run block issue.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 04:52 PM
&gt;no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

i keep trying to search for your pressure stats that shows Diehl gave up 30 pressures in 6 games at LT, but I can't find it.

you've already misquoted the sack stat and then argued it and were wrong about DIehl giving up 6.5 sacks only at the tackle position
If I couldnt find the stat for individual pressures, hits, or hurries, I would have posted it. It may be one of the 'premium stats' you gotta pay for on PFF

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:52 PM
>no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

i keep trying to search for your pressure stats that shows Diehl gave up 30 pressures in 6 games at LT, but I can't find it.

you've already misquoted the sack stat and then argued it and were wrong about DIehl giving up 6.5 sacks only at the tackle position


On PFF. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

30 pressures in 246 snaps at LT

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:52 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

we were just going off of the regular season games to be fair


I'm a firm believer of apples to apples. If we played 20 games this year, then match up all 20.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:53 PM
That is just how it seems to me from watching the games and not reading the stats. Beatty seems to be the better LT.

Yep. And from watching games early in the season, I can tell you that Diehl was the worst player on the OL at the beginning of the year as well. His struggles at LG are well documented.

Beatty may have been even better with a more capable guard next to him.


And according to PFF, the giants average 2.5 ypc on runs up the middle. The worst in the league. Id say that is a guard issue far more than Beatty cant run block issue.

nobody is arguing the brutal job that Diehl played at LG... we all agree on that

stop referencing it because its like a distraction to the the debate at hand which is how he played at LT

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 04:54 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

we were just going off of the regular season games to be fair


I'm a firm believer of apples to apples. If we played 20 games this year, then match up all 20.

well i don't think 4 playoff games are apples to apples, but alrite whatever you want to do lol

buddy33
02-22-2012, 04:54 PM
What are your thoughts on Petrus and Brewer? Maybe this line can improve with Beatty, Boothe, Petrus, and Brewer helping out next year.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:54 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both)..

Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick.

The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers.

Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:55 PM
>no thats 6.5 sacks given up by Diehl on the season


Diehl gave up 30+ pressures at just LT. In 250 snaps.

But your reality is clearly different.

Im sure the giants were just pulling cards out of a hat when they decided to play Beatty over Diehl at LT

i keep trying to search for your pressure stats that shows Diehl gave up 30 pressures in 6 games at LT, but I can't find it.

you've already misquoted the sack stat and then argued it and were wrong about DIehl giving up 6.5 sacks only at the tackle position


On PFF. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

30 pressures in 246 snaps at LT

It's a meaningless stat as are "hurries" both for being judgment based and them being a product of the offense being run.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:56 PM
It's a meaningless stat as are "hurries" both for being judgment based and them being a product of the offense being run.

Yep, discount whatever you want if it doesnt suit your argument.

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:58 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both)..

Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick.

The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers.

I think the truth of that statement is closer to the middle.

Eli is good at pocket awareness. He's not The Flash however. Conversely, while Diehl may not be the Great Wall of China, he's not the screen door you guys are making him out to be. Not by a long shot. And Eli has never in his career gotten the ball out quickly. Just not his style, nor our offense's.

I think if people actually watched Diehl instead of dwelling on a couple of really bad highlights they might see that.

In the end, I'll take the SB wins and the "crappy" LT over the better LT and lack of winning. I guess I'm kind of whacky that way.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 04:59 PM
Hey look, some more stuff about Eli

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/31/pressure-and-the-2011-quarterbacks/


Looking at quarterbacks who have excelled, we find ourselves going back to mentioning Manning. Despite facing pressure on 38.9% of dropbacks (the fourth-highest percentage in the league), Manning took sacks on just 11.5% of plays he was pressured, a number only slightly better than the elusive Michael Vick.

Kruunch
02-22-2012, 04:59 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

we were just going off of the regular season games to be fair


I'm a firm believer of apples to apples. If we played 20 games this year, then match up all 20.

well i don't think 4 playoff games are apples to apples, but alrite whatever you want to do lol


Why? Do they pass rush less in the play offs?

jhamburg
02-22-2012, 05:00 PM
That is just how it seems to me from watching the games and not reading the stats. Beatty seems to be the better LT.

Yep. And from watching games early in the season, I can tell you that Diehl was the worst player on the OL at the beginning of the year as well. His struggles at LG are well documented.

Beatty may have been even better with a more capable guard next to him.


And according to PFF, the giants average 2.5 ypc on runs up the middle. The worst in the league. Id say that is a guard issue far more than Beatty cant run block issue.

nobody is arguing the brutal job that Diehl played at LG... we all agree on that

stop referencing it because its like a distraction to the the debate at hand which is how he played at LT


You have to admit though- it would be pretty weird for a guy to be horrible in pass protection at LG and then good at LT. It really doesn't make sense at all actually. It's like if you put a safety who struggles at coverage at CB, and all the sudden he's solid.

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 05:01 PM
In the end, I'll take the SB wins and the "crappy" LT over the better LT and lack of winning. I guess I'm kind of whacky that way.

Right, because Diehl single-handedly won them the SB, and they would have never been close with a better LT.

At least stick to some sort of argument that makes sense.

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:02 PM
What are your thoughts on Petrus and Brewer? Maybe this line can improve with Beatty, Boothe, Petrus, and Brewer helping out next year.Im a HUUUUUGE Petrus fan, he looks like a spitting image of my buddy Curt, and I love the intensity he brings to the game. Too bad we dont really have a spot for him right now, we pay Baas too much to ride the bench and he would be too much of a cap hit if we cut him, and Boothe def earned his keep as a starter on the OL, I actually liked him at Center. Boothe could improve his pass protection game, but I like his potential at Center, too bad we have Baas who to me seems weak in the run game..... Oh yea and Boothe is from Queens and Im a HUUUUUGE sucker for homegrown talent from the Tri-State Area

I know nothing about Brewer except he's tremendous at 6'6 323lb

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 05:03 PM
You have to admit though- it would be pretty weird for a guy to be horrible in pass protection at LG and then good at LT. It really doesn't make sense at all actually. It's like if you put a safety who struggles at coverage at CB, and all the sudden he's solid.

Its because its far easier to help a LT out with chips and double teams than it is to help a guard. Guards by and large have to win on their own, then get help late from the center or tackle. You cant really have a TE or back come chip for a guard.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 05:04 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both)..

Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick.

The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers.

I think the truth of that statement is closer to the middle.

Eli is good at pocket awareness. He's not The Flash however.<font size="6"> Conversely, while Diehl may not be the Great Wall of China, he's not the screen door you guys are making him out to be. Not by a long shot.</font> And Eli has never in his career gotten the ball out quickly. Just not his style, nor our offense's.

I think if people actually watched Diehl instead of dwelling on a couple of really bad highlights they might see that.

In the end, I'll take the SB wins and the "crappy" LT over the better LT and lack of winning. I guess I'm kind of whacky that way.

110% agree

slipknottin
02-22-2012, 05:05 PM
110% agree


Yea, hes only the worst starter, Im sure if the giants tried they could find an even worse pass blocker.

That is the goal after all, right?

Start the LT who is the worst pass blocker?

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 05:05 PM
[and thats pretty equal percentage wise... especially when considering how bad we all agree Beatty played at guard for 10 games of the season


Thats just at LT. Diehl only played LT for like 250 snaps. Beatty for 500+

Not true. In the 2011 season we played a total of 20 games (including post-season).

Beatty played 10 at LT.

Diehl played 10 at LT.

Also keep in mind that Diehl played 2011 with a broken hand.

we were just going off of the regular season games to be fair


I'm a firm believer of apples to apples. If we played 20 games this year, then match up all 20.

well i don't think 4 playoff games are apples to apples, but alrite whatever you want to do lol


Why? Do they pass rush less in the play offs?

no but I just consider the playoff another season within the total year

personal views that comparing a superbowl performance to week 4 game are just two entirely different animals

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:10 PM
You have to admit though- it would be pretty weird for a guy to be horrible in pass protection at LG and then good at LT. It really doesn't make sense at all actually. It's like if you put a safety who struggles at coverage at CB, and all the sudden he's solid.

Its because its far easier to help a LT out with chips and double teams than it is to help a guard. Guards by and large have to win on their own, then get help late from the center or tackle. You cant really have a TE or back come chip for a guard.Cept when the guard pull

If you have a good franchise LT (or even RT to a lesser extent) you can line him up one on one like we did with Beatty earlier this season. Given it was probably to see what we had with him, but none the less we let him go 1 on 1 with Orakpo, T. Cole, Peppers, etc

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 05:12 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both).. Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick. The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers. Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...You have to admit, Eli has improved the passed few seasons in his pocket awareness. He is not Rodgers, Vick or Tebow when it comes to agility or speed, but he can move around to avoid some of the pressures when our tackles get beat. If Eli was a statue back there, Diehl and McKenzie's stats would be worse.

MattMeyerBud
02-22-2012, 05:13 PM
110% agree


Yea, hes only the worst starter, Im sure if the giants tried they could find an even worse pass blocker.

That is the goal after all, right?

Start the LT who is the worst pass blocker?

the goal is to start the overall BETTER player

overall

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:14 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both)..

Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick.

The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers.

Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...Judging strictly by PFF's efficency rating for OT's

Double Deuce was 75th of 75 and Suge Knight was 63rd of 75

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:21 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both).. Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick. The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers. Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...You have to admit, Eli has improved the passed few seasons in his pocket awareness. He is not Rodgers, Vick or Tebow when it comes to agility or speed, but he can move around to avoid some of the pressures when our tackles get beat. If Eli was a statue back there, Diehl and McKenzie's stats would be worse.Eli doesnt need to be a Rodgers, Vick, Tebow, etc. Id rather him keep on doing what he's doing and realize whats going on with the pass rush and pocket, take 1 or 2 steps then toss the rock downfield, we dont need him looking for 1 or 2 options then tucking it and running, that aint Eli.

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Some of you just have to realize that sooner or later, Diehl will be done---as in retired from football. Some of you sound like you are in denial, just because Diehl is aging and not the player he was 3 to 4 years ago. </P>


</P>


Whether its Beatty, a new LT via free agency, trade or draft, Diehl will be replaced. And lets have this debate in a few more years. Diehl has what----about 8 to 9 years of experience? Beatty just finished his 3rd year---and not all as a full time starter. Lets see where they both stand when all is said and done. Lets compare Beatty to Diehl closer when Beatty has 8 to 9 years of experience.</P>


</P>


Right now, I will leave it up to the GM and coaching staff to do whats best to protect our franchise QB and open holes for our running backs.</P>


</P>


I say thank you to David Diehl for your contributions to the team on and off the field. Its business not personal!</P>

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 05:29 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both).. Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick. The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers. Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...You have to admit, Eli has improved the passed few seasons in his pocket awareness. He is not Rodgers, Vick or Tebow when it comes to agility or speed, but he can move around to avoid some of the pressures when our tackles get beat. If Eli was a statue back there, Diehl and McKenzie's stats would be worse.Eli doesnt need to be a Rodgers, Vick, Tebow, etc. Id rather him keep on doing what he's doing and realize whats going on with the pass rush and pocket, take 1 or 2 steps then toss the rock downfield, we dont need him looking for 1 or 2 options then tucking it and running, that aint Eli.

kase, maybe you misread my post, but I did not say that I want Eli to be like Rodgers, Vick or Tebow. I was trying to say that Eli has enough pocket awareness and can move around/step away from pressure without having to tuck and run if your 1st or 2nd read is not open. </P>


</P>


I'm ok with Eli the way he is right now. And lets not forget, sometimes its ok to take a sack in certain situations, instead of forcing something. But the main thing is that our O-line tries to keep Eli as clean as possible. Even with his toughness and streak he has going, those QB hits take their toll over time.</P>

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:39 PM
However Peyton also is a different QB than Eli. Again he holds the ball less than half as long as Eli does (I believe Peyton actually had the least hold time per pass attempt in 2009 and again in 2010, while Eli was almost dead last in both).. Eli was incredible this year at avoiding pressure and getting the ball off quick. The fact Eli was sacked so seldom was a testament to himself. Unless you really think McKenzie and Diehl are among the best pass blockers. Of course you already brought up how horrible McKenzie was at pass blocking...You have to admit, Eli has improved the passed few seasons in his pocket awareness. He is not Rodgers, Vick or Tebow when it comes to agility or speed, but he can move around to avoid some of the pressures when our tackles get beat. If Eli was a statue back there, Diehl and McKenzie's stats would be worse.Eli doesnt need to be a Rodgers, Vick, Tebow, etc. Id rather him keep on doing what he's doing and realize whats going on with the pass rush and pocket, take 1 or 2 steps then toss the rock downfield, we dont need him looking for 1 or 2 options then tucking it and running, that aint Eli.

kase, maybe you misread my post, but I did not say that I want Eli to be like Rodgers, Vick or Tebow. I was trying to say that Eli has enough pocket awareness and can move around/step away from pressure without having to tuck and run if your 1st or 2nd read is not open. </p>


</p>


I'm ok with Eli the way he is right now. And lets not forget, sometimes its ok to take a sack in certain situations, instead of forcing something. But the main thing is that our O-line tries to keep Eli as clean as possible. Even with his toughness and streak he has going, those QB hits take their toll over time.</p>Oh no it wasnt really a response to you, but more so referencing your post about the mobile QBs

Eli's pocket awareness is a gift that allows him to realize that sometimes it IS better to take a sack, cause like we all remember he used to try and force the play

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 05:42 PM
oh my bad, kase! I misinterpreted your post---LOL!!!</P>


</P>


Yeah you have to admit, fans of the running QBs hold their respective breath when their QB leaves that pocket.</P>


</P>


</P>

bleeding blue
02-22-2012, 05:56 PM
BOTH suck against speed rushers, they're very slow moving side to side. I think at this point, Beatty is better but IMO he is NOT the answer at LT long term. Me and my dad always thought he sucked when it seemed everyone was hyping him up,,,Even Bob Papa said he had a great preseason and I was like WHAT!! could be just me...

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 05:56 PM
oh my bad, kase! I misinterpreted your post---LOL!!!</p>


</p>


Yeah you have to admit, fans of the running QBs hold their respective breath when their QB leaves that pocket.</p>


</p>


</p>Oh man Id be nervous as hell to see my QB tuck it and run.

Thank goodness we have Eli who takes a step or 2 to buy himself some time to analyze the field then toss it downfield rather than a guy who tucks, runs, and fumbles

tonyt830
02-22-2012, 06:01 PM
oh my bad, kase! I misinterpreted your post---LOL!!!</P>


</P>


Yeah you have to admit, fans of the running QBs hold their respective breath when their QB leaves that pocket.</P>


</P>


</P>Oh man Id be nervous as hell to see my QB tuck it and run.

Thank goodness we have Eli who takes a step or 2 to buy himself some time to analyze the field then toss it downfield rather than a guy who tucks, runs, and fumbles
agreed!

Kase-1
02-22-2012, 06:39 PM
oh my bad, kase! I misinterpreted your post---LOL!!!</p>


</p>


Yeah you have to admit, fans of the running QBs hold their respective breath when their QB leaves that pocket.</p>


</p>


</p>Oh man Id be nervous as hell to see my QB tuck it and run.

Thank goodness we have Eli who takes a step or 2 to buy himself some time to analyze the field then toss it downfield rather than a guy who tucks, runs, and fumbles
agreed!And I wont lie, you can ask my whole squad, I was an Eli hater for the longest time, but Im 100% on board with Eazy-E as the captain of my offense!!!!!

Im more of a Defense/Run Game kind of fan, but Im thinking of getting an Eli SB jersey, that may not seem like a big thing to everyone but for me that is. Ive NEVER been a QB fan, but Eli has converted me!!!!!

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 07:56 PM
OK we've been having this debate in 'THEE Thread' about who is the better LT David Diehl or Will Beatty.

Yes, I understand that Double Deuce won 2 SBs with us, is a SUPER versatile OLman, an EXCELLENT teammate in the lockeroom, and one of the best OL we've had in Giants history, BUT...... In these past few seasons Diehl constantly is ranked among the worst OTs in the NFL year after year and we have a better LT with Will Beatty ready to go, hell in the 10 games he played this season he was killing it for us at LT

Now this isnt me bashing Diehl, cause thats laughable, he's one of my favorite Giants, but all im saying is that his best chance at starting next season is at RT, cause Beatty is the LT of the future

Here's a few articles that you guys may wanna reference
-3 year Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/15/three-year-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-linemen/)
- 2011 Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/)
-2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/)
Will Beatty (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/william-beatty-267327/)
David Diehl (http://www.profootballweekly.com/players/david-diehl-184685/)

Once again this is about WHO THE BETTER LT is, not who is a better Giant, who won more SBs, or whatever BS you guys wanna toss into play

Discuss Amongst Yourselves.....
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KanRFQdfsoE/Scatsg3oJ0I/AAAAAAAACLE/8v0jbnIEwpQ/s400/Coffee_Talk_Linda_Richman.jpg


I don't think anyone would challenge that Beatty is now the better LT.

RoanokeFan
02-22-2012, 07:57 PM
BOTH suck against speed rushers, they're very slow moving side to side. I think at this point, Beatty is better but IMO he is NOT the answer at LT long term. Me and my dad always thought he sucked when it seemed everyone was hyping him up,,,Even Bob Papa said he had a great preseason and I was like WHAT!! <font color="#0000FF">could be just me</font>...

Indeed it could

lawl
02-22-2012, 08:16 PM
Diehl was probably the worst starter on our team last year, regardless of position.

Voldamort
02-22-2012, 08:22 PM
There is something about Beatty that I just do not like. He just does not appear to be physical enough at the point of attack. all in with this,i think he is soft!