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Does the GIANTS QB solution have to be in the draft ?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TonyDee View Post
    Here's a scenario I'd like to see :

    1) Steal Cousins away from Wash and have a division
    rival lose their QB at the same time.
    Why Wash is messing with Cousins is beyond me.
    Second in the league in passing yeards, 101 QB
    rating. 19/6 td to int. Has a little moblity
    to get out of trouble if the blocking breaks down.
    And let's face it, we're not going to fix this Oline
    anytime soon.
    The guy is experienced and knows the league.
    We wouldn't have to worry about the great unknown with a
    rookie.

    2) FROM A PURE FOOTBALL PERSPECTIVE, NO POLITICS,
    Sign Kaepernick. Yes, sign Kaepernick.
    We can get him on the cheap. In 2016 he had 16 TD/ 4Int
    on a lousy SF team. I think he'd be a great backup
    and has mobility.


    3) Webb can learn behind these guys and can compete for the #2 spot.
    Or possibly be dealt for help in other areas/picks.

    4) So of course, part ways with Eli.

    5) Go for Oline and RB in the draft.
    1. I would love to have Cousins here. I love my MSU QB's.
    2. Kirk Cousins will NEVER be a Giant because Eli Manning's contract dictates that he is our starter through next year.
    3. I have high confidence that we will draft a QB in RD 1 this coming draft and he and Webb will sit behind Eli in 2018.
    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by CGYgiant View Post

      hearing he doesn't come out. Especially if Browns pick #1
      read that too, i hope he comes out and the browns pass.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by TonyDee View Post
        Here's a scenario I'd like to see :

        1) Steal Cousins away from Wash and have a division
        rival lose their QB at the same time.
        Why Wash is messing with Cousins is beyond me.


        2) FROM A PURE FOOTBALL PERSPECTIVE, NO POLITICS,
        Sign Kaepernick. Yes, sign Kaepernick.
        We can get him on the cheap. In 2016 he had 16 TD/ 4Int
        on a lousy SF team. I think he'd be a great backup
        and has mobility.


        .
        Cousins is certainly an upgrade from Eli at this point, unfortunately there's 1 year left on Eli's contract and you surely can't have 2 qbs making 25k a season on the 2018 salary cap. Especially with all the other roster positions we need upgraded.

        From a purely football perspective, Cap would have put up much better #'s than Eli this season. If you have a garbage O-line you need a running QB, a perfect example is Seattle. Not only would he have 700 yards rushing compared to Eli's 50 but having to constantly be watching for the QB scramble would open up other things in the passing game as well.

        Comment


        • #34
          Here are my thoughts from 11/06:

          http://boards.giants.com/forum/new-y...w-to-handle-it

          Okay, there are two premises that everyone may not agree upon:

          1. It's time to move on from Eli Manning. His age, ability and contract are not congruent with the current Giants situation, eg rebuilding/retooling.

          2. I believe Eli Manning has been done for two seasons now. By no means is our current record his fault but he is a significant piece given his cap hit.


          So how do we handle the QB situation? We need to move in another direction. Given the unknown of what our GM, HC, and coaching staff situation will be in 2018 let's, for sake of argument, say it remains intact as is.

          (I'll give you all time to recover from that one).

          Assuming we have a high draft pick the obvious options are:

          1. Draft one of the top QBs
          2. Sign a FA
          3. Webb
          4. Geno Smith

          For the record I'm all for option #2, although I do not think it's obtainable. Here's why:

          Option 1: Investing a top 3(?) draft pick in a QB is putting all your eggs in one basket. And that is wholly dependent upon our scouting/GM getting the pick right and our coaching staff then developing that QB. Two things I think this organization has failed miserably at for a very, very, long time. I know what a lot of you are thinking right now, "but what about Eli?" Well for starters we didn't draft him. He fell into our lap via his refusal to play for SD. Secondly did this team really "develop" him? In year 13 he's still the same player as he was in his rookie year. Cerebral (which he came into the NFL with) with the ability to make nice throws and the penchant for making "wtf" throws. Not consistently accurate and not a strong arm.

          So when is the last time the Giants selected a rookie QB and developed them into a franchise QB?

          Given the above plus the fact that the NCAA rank isn't producing NFL ready QBs, my opinion is to stay away from that risk and use the high draft pick to resolve one of our other glaring needs.

          Option 2: Signing a FA QB would be ideal. And I'm not talking about a semi-unproven like Matt Flynn, Matt Cassell, Matt Moore (what's with Matts?), or Brock Osweiller. I'm talking about a proven guy that barely comes around in FA. Kirk Cousins. If we release Eli Manning we would save $11M against the cap next year and $22M against the cap in 2019.

          Another "worst case scenario" FA QB would be Garrafolo. He wants to be a UFA in 2018. However, to me, he falls under the aforementioned "semi-unproven" QB category.

          Unfortunately Reese signed some awful contracts recently that would really hamper our ability to sign a high priced FA like Cousins. Signing Pierre Paul to his extension was a grave mistake. Ridiculous guaranteed money and structure make it impossible to get out of his contract until 2020 at the earliest. Why invest so much into Pierre Paul when you just spent oodles of money on Vernon, Snacks, Jankins, etc. It's great to have one top tier DE (Vernon) it's ridiculously luxurious to have two. Why not go with Vernon, Wynn and Moss? At some point you have to get production out of guys on their rookie deals or else you end up destroying your salary cap (which is about to happen with this team thanks to Reese).

          Other contracts that Reese dolled out which hamper us: DRC, Vereen, and Rhett Ellison. Those three alone are $15M in cap space and $23M in dead cap space. That's a lot of money for very little production.

          Which brings us to #3 since our cap situation is poor due to Reese:

          Option 3: Davis Webb. So 2017 is obviously done. We have nothing to play for. Eli Manning should not be a part of our 2018 and beyond plans. So shouldn't we start this kid and see if we have anything in him? If he shows promise for the next 8 games, awesome. If he proves he's not NFL worthy then we need to seek an alternative option at QB.

          *gulp*

          Option 4: Geno Smith. Let me get this straight right off the bat: I don't like Geno Smith as a QB. I don't think he's really that good. Having said that he does have something that every QB in today's NFL needs: Mobility. Can we work with him given the previous three options don't work out? He's a $1M cap hit right now and an UFA after this season. If he is an option, he can come cheap which will help with our cap situation and the fact we need to sign players coming off their rookie contracts.


          What are your thoughts?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post

            1. I would love to have Cousins here. I love my MSU QB's.
            2. Kirk Cousins will NEVER be a Giant because Eli Manning's contract dictates that he is our starter through next year.
            3. I have high confidence that we will draft a QB in RD 1 this coming draft and he and Webb will sit behind Eli in 2018.
            You can cut Eli on the first day of the 2018 season (first week of March) and designate him as a June 1st cap hit and we'd end up saving around $10M against the cap.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by buried_in_snow View Post
              Here are my thoughts from 11/06:

              http://boards.giants.com/forum/new-y...w-to-handle-it

              Okay, there are two premises that everyone may not agree upon:

              1. It's time to move on from Eli Manning. His age, ability and contract are not congruent with the current Giants situation, eg rebuilding/retooling.

              2. I believe Eli Manning has been done for two seasons now. By no means is our current record his fault but he is a significant piece given his cap hit.


              So how do we handle the QB situation? We need to move in another direction. Given the unknown of what our GM, HC, and coaching staff situation will be in 2018 let's, for sake of argument, say it remains intact as is.

              (I'll give you all time to recover from that one).

              Assuming we have a high draft pick the obvious options are:

              1. Draft one of the top QBs
              2. Sign a FA
              3. Webb
              4. Geno Smith

              For the record I'm all for option #2, although I do not think it's obtainable. Here's why:

              Option 1: Investing a top 3(?) draft pick in a QB is putting all your eggs in one basket. And that is wholly dependent upon our scouting/GM getting the pick right and our coaching staff then developing that QB. Two things I think this organization has failed miserably at for a very, very, long time. I know what a lot of you are thinking right now, "but what about Eli?" Well for starters we didn't draft him. He fell into our lap via his refusal to play for SD. Secondly did this team really "develop" him? In year 13 he's still the same player as he was in his rookie year. Cerebral (which he came into the NFL with) with the ability to make nice throws and the penchant for making "wtf" throws. Not consistently accurate and not a strong arm.

              So when is the last time the Giants selected a rookie QB and developed them into a franchise QB?

              Given the above plus the fact that the NCAA rank isn't producing NFL ready QBs, my opinion is to stay away from that risk and use the high draft pick to resolve one of our other glaring needs.

              Option 2: Signing a FA QB would be ideal. And I'm not talking about a semi-unproven like Matt Flynn, Matt Cassell, Matt Moore (what's with Matts?), or Brock Osweiller. I'm talking about a proven guy that barely comes around in FA. Kirk Cousins. If we release Eli Manning we would save $11M against the cap next year and $22M against the cap in 2019.

              Another "worst case scenario" FA QB would be Garrafolo. He wants to be a UFA in 2018. However, to me, he falls under the aforementioned "semi-unproven" QB category.

              Unfortunately Reese signed some awful contracts recently that would really hamper our ability to sign a high priced FA like Cousins. Signing Pierre Paul to his extension was a grave mistake. Ridiculous guaranteed money and structure make it impossible to get out of his contract until 2020 at the earliest. Why invest so much into Pierre Paul when you just spent oodles of money on Vernon, Snacks, Jankins, etc. It's great to have one top tier DE (Vernon) it's ridiculously luxurious to have two. Why not go with Vernon, Wynn and Moss? At some point you have to get production out of guys on their rookie deals or else you end up destroying your salary cap (which is about to happen with this team thanks to Reese).

              Other contracts that Reese dolled out which hamper us: DRC, Vereen, and Rhett Ellison. Those three alone are $15M in cap space and $23M in dead cap space. That's a lot of money for very little production.

              Which brings us to #3 since our cap situation is poor due to Reese:

              Option 3: Davis Webb. So 2017 is obviously done. We have nothing to play for. Eli Manning should not be a part of our 2018 and beyond plans. So shouldn't we start this kid and see if we have anything in him? If he shows promise for the next 8 games, awesome. If he proves he's not NFL worthy then we need to seek an alternative option at QB.

              *gulp*

              Option 4: Geno Smith. Let me get this straight right off the bat: I don't like Geno Smith as a QB. I don't think he's really that good. Having said that he does have something that every QB in today's NFL needs: Mobility. Can we work with him given the previous three options don't work out? He's a $1M cap hit right now and an UFA after this season. If he is an option, he can come cheap which will help with our cap situation and the fact we need to sign players coming off their rookie contracts.


              What are your thoughts?
              And this is why I started this post.
              Do you see how many opinions there are on
              who to pick in the draft ?
              We're all shooting in the dark here.
              I would love to see us pull off some front office/cap maneuvering and get a guy like Cousins
              and we would know who we're getting. I didn't even think of Garoppolo.
              Use the picks on the Oline and RB. With the defense we have and the skill
              positions on offense (when healthy) we don't need a Brady/Rodgers type.
              An adequate QB with some mobility who with a decent Oline can get 1st downs
              and sustain drives and put some points on the board. That would let the defense
              play with a little rest and with more confidence.
              I highly doubt this will happen but to me it's the best scenario....

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by TonyDee View Post

                And this is why I started this post.
                Do you see how many opinions there are on
                who to pick in the draft ?
                We're all shooting in the dark here.
                I would love to see us pull off some front office/cap maneuvering and get a guy like Cousins
                and we would know who we're getting. I didn't even think of Garoppolo.
                Use the picks on the Oline and RB. With the defense we have and the skill
                positions on offense (when healthy) we don't need a Brady/Rodgers type.
                An adequate QB with some mobility who with a decent Oline can get 1st downs
                and sustain drives and put some points on the board. That would let the defense
                play with a little rest and with more confidence.
                I highly doubt this will happen but to me it's the best scenario....
                I'm pretty sure we're going to seize the opportunity the draft a QB in RD 1. Good QB class and we have a top 3 or 4 pick.
                It would be football malpractice not to take advantage of this situation,
                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TonyDee View Post

                  And this is why I started this post.
                  Do you see how many opinions there are on
                  who to pick in the draft ?
                  We're all shooting in the dark here.
                  I would love to see us pull off some front office/cap maneuvering and get a guy like Cousins
                  and we would know who we're getting. I didn't even think of Garoppolo.
                  Use the picks on the Oline and RB. With the defense we have and the skill
                  positions on offense (when healthy) we don't need a Brady/Rodgers type.
                  An adequate QB with some mobility who with a decent Oline can get 1st downs
                  and sustain drives and put some points on the board. That would let the defense
                  play with a little rest and with more confidence.
                  I highly doubt this will happen but to me it's the best scenario....
                  I hear ya, man.

                  I don't think this coaching staff will be around next year... but having said that, if it's Reese and/or McAdoo involved - I have ZERO faith that they can develop a QB, period.

                  I'm all about addressing the OL with the top(ish) pick.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    2 time SB MVp Eli Manning just became available!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bigpoppy View Post
                      2 time SB MVp Eli Manning just became available!
                      LOL !!! Yeah, I just heard .....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Good thread. Obviously there are biases on display. The fastest route back to contention is if Webb can play. This will allow the Giants to enhance the roster with draft choices at other positions and use valuable dollars to sign Giants and other FA.
                        I too share the indifference about Cousins. Absolutely would be against the dollars it would take.
                        As for the draft, if Baker Mayfield is there and they LOVE him then it's worth the risk. Rivers was immature when he came into the league but he may be playing the best ball of his career and has become the consummate leader.
                        I'm hopeful Webb can be a Pro as I feel it's the fastest path back. He's a student of the game and has unquestioned arm skills.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TonyDee View Post
                          Here's a scenario I'd like to see :

                          1) Steal Cousins away from Wash and have a division
                          rival lose their QB at the same time.
                          Why Wash is messing with Cousins is beyond me.
                          Second in the league in passing yeards, 101 QB
                          rating. 19/6 td to int. Has a little moblity
                          to get out of trouble if the blocking breaks down.
                          And let's face it, we're not going to fix this Oline
                          anytime soon.
                          The guy is experienced and knows the league.
                          We wouldn't have to worry about the great unknown with a
                          rookie.

                          2) FROM A PURE FOOTBALL PERSPECTIVE, NO POLITICS,
                          Sign Kaepernick. Yes, sign Kaepernick.
                          We can get him on the cheap. In 2016 he had 16 TD/ 4Int
                          on a lousy SF team. I think he'd be a great backup
                          and has mobility.


                          3) Webb can learn behind these guys and can compete for the #2 spot.
                          Or possibly be dealt for help in other areas/picks.

                          4) So of course, part ways with Eli.

                          5) Go for Oline and RB in the draft.
                          1) Why would the Giants want Cousins when the Skins won't commit to him long-term?

                          2) Putting aside the controversy, if Kaepernick's level of play hadn't dropped off in recent years either the Niners would have kept him or some other team would've snatched him up and said his talent outweighs the fan backlash.

                          3) Why would anyone want Webb to learn anything from Cousins or Kap based off of points 1 and 2? And Webb will likely land the No. 2 spot behind the QB the Giants draft next year.

                          4)I'm in favor of moving on from Eli, but the Giants are clearly blowing everything up. When that happens you start over by drafting a new, young QB to groom and mold into your system, not by bringing in QBs that other teams wouldn't commit to or dumped.

                          5) The Giants are in transition mode right now and are staring at a Top 5 draft pick, which isn't a position that they're usually in. It's more important for them to use that pick on the what could be the next franchise QB, not on an O-Lineman or RB. And considering how many years the Giants spent between Phil Simms and Eli looking for a franchise QB that has to be their top priority in the draft.
                          One of these teams is not like the others

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mikeq6722 View Post
                            Why does every post that mentions signing Colin Kaepernick say you can sign him cheap, its been that way for almost a year now. Do people forget he opted out of his 14.5 million dollar contract with the Niners because he thought he could get more?
                            He opted out because their front office had told him that he would be cut.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              1) he will be too expensive and I think redskins will sign him this year, it be cool if they dont though.
                              2) I like Kaepernick and think he would be cheap steal. Not sure why no one signed him....he is Vick 2.0
                              3) We all know how Eli and Giants did grooming Nassib, pure trash....if Eli went down we were screwed. Geno is a nice #2 QB though and not much of a difference at all from Eli
                              4) Hell yeah, hopefully we get lucky with a Goff/Wentz draft but not sold on these guys yet. Mayfield looks to slow for me but he got Brady accuracy, he will surly give the Giants an edge and fun to watch with ODB engram and shepard.
                              5) our OL needs blowing up. Keep Pugh and flowers somewhere and get 3 more guys, will take some time to groom them though. Not sure who our RB will be but hopefully Perkins starts remainder of games so we can see what he got that made the Giants decide to name him a starter. Perkins darkwa and gallman....tbh even if Perkins cant be a #1 rb he showed flahes last year of being great depth and back-up.
                              Vereen is done so Giants need a new rb that can catch as its all the rage in nfl now days(mcCaffrey, cohen, coleman). ALthough Perkins looks like he has good hands so maybe they should try him out as a receiver rb
                              Last edited by NephilimGiants; 12-08-2017, 12:12 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'd have no issues with Perkins as your third down back. He has good hands. I just don't see anything in him as the starter.

                                Comment

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