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NEW YORK KNICKS 2012-2013 THREAD

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  • Originally posted by kNicksGiants View Post
    i don't see the tyson/billups deal as really comparable. nobody thought he would even be available because most assumed dallas would want to retain him. when it became available the knicks jumped on it. i don't think that situation is comparable to the 2015 cap space. also amnestying amare seemed like a dumb idea as he was coming off a great season. plus the idea that dolan would pay amare 25 mil per year multiple years to play for another team at the minimum is crazy and was never gonna happen. tyson was supposed to be the final piece, but amare hasn't stayed healthy.

    like i said before dolan values loyalty. stat helped bring the knicks back to relevancy.
    Who said the Amnesty had to be used right then they could of used it this year or when Paul was able to be A FA after Amare broke down, Had the Knicks not used the player option on Billups they could of got Chandler anyway. Im sorry there is no way to defend using a player option for 15 million then amnesty the player months later its stupid, really stupid.If they let Billups run out Im positive Chris Paul is a Knick. He wouldnt of used his player option and the Knicks would be a even better then they are now.
    Plus who didnt think Amare was going to break down at some point, not to keep it was just bad business. When that contract was signed it was pretty much guaranteed we would get no more then 3 good years instead we got 40 games

    I hate this argument about Amare.How is he loyal at all. He took a check no 1 else would give him because every other team knew better. He didnt do the Knicks any favors. In fact he is the biggest reason they arent able to win the title. Could u imagine if that 20 million was Chris Paul. We might of won the championship last year.I would of amnestied him this season just to get a full Mid level exception and sign and trades.
    Last edited by Redeyejedi; 07-17-2013, 06:11 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Redeyejedi View Post
      Who said the Amnesty had to be used right then they could of used it this year or when Paul was able to be A FA after Amare broke down, Had the Knicks not used the player option on Billups they could of got Chandler anyway. Im sorry there is no way to defend using a player option for 15 million then amnesty the player months later its stupid, really stupid.If they let Billups run out Im positive Chris Paul is a Knick. He wouldnt of used his player option and the Knicks would be a even better then they are now.
      Plus who didnt think Amare was going to break down at some point, not to keep it was just bad business. When that contract was signed it was pretty much guaranteed we would get no more then 3 good years instead we got 40 games

      I hate this argument about Amare all he did was take a check no 1 else would give him because every other team knew better. He didnt do the Knicks any favors. In fact he is the biggest reason they arent able to win the title. Could u imagine if that 20 million was Chris Paul. We might of won the championship last year.
      using the amnesty on amare this year is still paying 50 mil to a guy that will be on another team. dolan isn't doing that regardless.

      also not picking up billups' option didn't fully clear his cap number, i forget the exact number but it was something like 6 mil i forget, that would have still counted against the cap. so if they didn't pick up his option they wouldn't have enough to sign chandler. knicks would have been a lotto team that year with no draft pick if they went into the season with no billups or tyson. houston would have loved it lol

      as far as cp3, he would have needed to take a lot less money to come here. like i said before the knicks were informed by his agent it wasn't gonna happen which is why they went in another direction.

      the reason i say stat brought the knicks back to relevancy is because no way does melo want anything to do with the knicks if they were still a bad team. he wanted the knicks because he wanted new york, plus he wanted to play with amare as he was beasting that year and the knicks were decent.

      it would have been viewed as nothing but a complete failure if the knicks didn't end up with any "star" in 2010. walsh spent years dumping players and trading away assets to create cap space for the "summer of lebron" plus wade, bosh, stat, etc. if the knicks came away with nothing what then? does melo end up a knick? doubt it.


      let's just enjoy this team for what it is. a very good, competitive team that can beat any team on any night. will they win a championship in these next 2 years? maybe not. but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel in terms of massive amounts of cap space for 2015.

      walsh is bum by the way and got way too much credit for what he did here. he essentially gave away quality players and threw in picks on top of it. grunwald has done a far better job so far. he has only traded 2nd round picks in all these deals other than the 2016 first which denver owned the rights to swap anyways. the camby/kidd signings didn't work out but on paper seemed like quality moves. in hindsight we probably should have gotten some young guys instead but it is what it is.

      last year was an incredible season. losing in the 2nd round was disappointing but it doesn't completely take away from all the things the team accomplished. hopefully the knicks build on that and are even better this year. i don't see why not other than health. on paper the additions of bargs and artest plus the rookies is better than novak/kidd/camby/cope.
      Last edited by kNicksGiants; 07-17-2013, 06:28 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Redeyejedi View Post
        I would of amnestied him this season just to get a full Mid level exception and sign and trades.
        knicks weren't that much above the apron going into this offseason since kidd retired. if they wanted to they could have dumped camby/novak for cap space and gained the full mle and ability to sign n trade.

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        • our summer league team is so trash it's embarrassing. to be fair hardaway isn't playing... but still.


          tyler looks good though. he could be a solid bench big for us with some upside. still only 22 years old.

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          • Knicks worked this guy out, Bobby Brown.. He played in the NBA for a few season.. Looks good to me

            http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz9u7Cmb-H8

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            • bobby brown lol we should sign him for name value alone


              i was just talking trash to a nets fan which caused me to look closer at the details of their trade for kg/pierce.... wow what a terrible trade it is. they not only gave up their 2014, 2016, and 2018 first round picks, but also the rights to swap picks in 2017.

              the nets future is incredibly bleak to say the least. not sure any of the picks are protected but i looked around and didn't see anything saying that they were... talk about a horrible "win now" trade.

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              • Originally posted by kNicksGiants View Post
                bobby brown lol we should sign him for name value alone


                i was just talking trash to a nets fan which caused me to look closer at the details of their trade for kg/pierce.... wow what a terrible trade it is. they not only gave up their 2014, 2016, and 2018 first round picks, but also the rights to swap picks in 2017.

                the nets future is incredibly bleak to say the least. not sure any of the picks are protected but i looked around and didn't see anything saying that they were... talk about a horrible "win now" trade.
                Its 2017 swap I thought it was 2020. They basically gave us 6 years for a 2 year window , maybe a 1 year window.

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                • The Nets definetly forfited alot, but if they can win this yr or next, or both, then it won't really matter. Thats what they did it for, and again, they'll still have Deron Williams and Brook Lopez, so will only have to find a couple players to go with those 2 to stay pretty competitive, which is fine.

                  By the way, speaking of teams in our division, watch out for Kelly Olynck. As you guys know, i loved him as a prospect, and think hes gonna be a headache for yrs to come. Obviously, they will stink for alittle while, but Rondo and Olynck are gonna be a solid duo if they stay together.

                  CJ Leslie is doing some things, and had a nice 15pt 5reb game against the bobcats in summer league action. Are team stinks, but again, like Cope last yr, we got a very intriguing piece in CJ Leslie. The knicks were interested in him at pick 24, and i seen em a ton in college, and there were times i thought this guy was a sure fire lottery pick. He can score, and has some range, is very athletic, but could use a few lbs and more consistent hustle.

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                  • So if CJ Leslie does in fact make the team, we'll then have Hardaway Jr, Shumpert, and Leslie as young players to hopefully be role players and in shumps case better then that going forward, which is more then we've had in awhile. I'm telling you guys, those guys can play. Your gonna see games where Hardaway Jr goes off for 20-23pts 5-6boards and complements Melo, with a struggling JR, and stuff like that. Shump can do the same thing, and Leslie can score in multiple ways..

                    I'm excited for this yrs team, i really am.

                    This would be my rotation.

                    Chandler
                    Bargs
                    Melo
                    Artest
                    Felton

                    JR
                    Shump
                    Martin maybe?
                    Hardaway Jr
                    Prigioni
                    Leslie
                    STAT

                    Very intriguing team right there. They might even add Aaron Brooks, whos gonna be a beast on this team. mark my words, Aaron Brooks will be as clutch a signing as you'll see this offseason if he comes here. That dudes gonna fit like a glove, and is again, more offense! I know our defense would lag, but this team will not have issues scoring in the postseason. There is 2many guys to all stay cold that can take over or potentially take over from time to time. Even Artest could give u 16-19 on any given night.

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                    • I think Tyler looks better than Leslie.. just saying

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                      • Originally posted by kNicksGiants View Post
                        using the amnesty on amare this year is still paying 50 mil to a guy that will be on another team. dolan isn't doing that regardless.

                        also not picking up billups' option didn't fully clear his cap number, i forget the exact number but it was something like 6 mil i forget, that would have still counted against the cap. so if they didn't pick up his option they wouldn't have enough to sign chandler. knicks would have been a lotto team that year with no draft pick if they went into the season with no billups or tyson. houston would have loved it lol

                        as far as cp3, he would have needed to take a lot less money to come here. like i said before the knicks were informed by his agent it wasn't gonna happen which is why they went in another direction.

                        the reason i say stat brought the knicks back to relevancy is because no way does melo want anything to do with the knicks if they were still a bad team. he wanted the knicks because he wanted new york, plus he wanted to play with amare as he was beasting that year and the knicks were decent.

                        it would have been viewed as nothing but a complete failure if the knicks didn't end up with any "star" in 2010. walsh spent years dumping players and trading away assets to create cap space for the "summer of lebron" plus wade, bosh, stat, etc. if the knicks came away with nothing what then? does melo end up a knick? doubt it.


                        let's just enjoy this team for what it is. a very good, competitive team that can beat any team on any night. will they win a championship in these next 2 years? maybe not. but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel in terms of massive amounts of cap space for 2015.

                        walsh is bum by the way and got way too much credit for what he did here. he essentially gave away quality players and threw in picks on top of it. grunwald has done a far better job so far. he has only traded 2nd round picks in all these deals other than the 2016 first which denver owned the rights to swap anyways. the camby/kidd signings didn't work out but on paper seemed like quality moves. in hindsight we probably should have gotten some young guys instead but it is what it is.

                        last year was an incredible season. losing in the 2nd round was disappointing but it doesn't completely take away from all the things the team accomplished. hopefully the knicks build on that and are even better this year. i don't see why not other than health. on paper the additions of bargs and artest plus the rookies is better than novak/kidd/camby/cope.
                        Walsh's moves were mostly bad but he did convince Dolan to tear it down so he gets some credit from me for that. He gave away players and assets without getting anything back but cap space. I didnt like his draft picks.I thought he always drafted Dantoni's player instead of the BPA.
                        Jordan Hill was a terrible pick and at the minimum cost the Knicks the 2012 draft pick.He has turned out okay and ironically is just the kind of player this roster needs right now but considering how many PG's were there. What I dont understand is why Walsh had to tell everyone how much the Knicks liked Curry and Rubio.

                        l didnt dislike Galo but he wasnt my first choice, he was a distant 2nd. Long term this franchise was way better off with Brook Lopez but he didnt fit Dantonis system.Shumpert I didnt like either and my criticisms of Shump before the draft are still valid.He is the only situation where i feel I may of been wrong with his picks.

                        The team could be better but I think the East is better as well. i also am not counting on the teams 2 ridiculous runs that they had .I also dont think they will slump as bad. The beginning and the end combined was half the season they went 34-7, Thats insane. Thats almost a 70 win team. The middle part they were 20-21 ,a 40 win team. Thats a huge discrepancy. Injuries played a part but everyone had injuries. Boston was without their best player, Boston was without theirs, Pacers we thought were without theirs.
                        If u look at the end of the season the players going out dont appear to be a big deal. The only player I would want if I could is Copeland.He has value in trades. Kidd however was a big part of the teams early success. Its to bad we ran him into the ground, He lost his confidence as he felt his skills diminish.Sad watching a guy who is second All Time in 3 pointers made afraid to shoot the ball.I still think this team has a huge hole at PG. Not getting 1 I think could end up costing them the season.I'm hoping 1 of these vets takes the Knicks money but I think they are being scared away by the Knicks handing the back up job to Prigs

                        Artest is a good signing in terms of value. Im not sure how much he will help. The only thing that worries me about this signing is that it may cost the Knicks Kenyon Martin. I think Martin is more of a need then Artest. If we get both great but if signing Artest means we lost Martin then it wasnt worth it..

                        Brigs is the key to the offseason, He is very skilled with fantastic movement skills for his size.He looks like a number 1 pick.Maybe he lost his drive to play in Toronto. If he can turn into Pau Gasol in his prome or a middle class Dirk ,the Knicks can be contenders.

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                        • Originally posted by Redeyejedi View Post
                          Walsh's moves were mostly bad but he did convince Dolan to tear it down so he gets some credit from me for that. He gave away players and assets without getting anything back but cap space. I didnt like his draft picks.I thought he always drafted Dantoni's player instead of the BPA.
                          Jordan Hill was a terrible pick and at the minimum cost the Knicks the 2012 draft pick.He has turned out okay and ironically is just the kind of player this roster needs right now but considering how many PG's were there. What I dont understand is why Walsh had to tell everyone how much the Knicks liked Curry and Rubio.

                          l didnt dislike Galo but he wasnt my first choice, he was a distant 2nd. Long term this franchise was way better off with Brook Lopez but he didnt fit Dantonis system.Shumpert I didnt like either and my criticisms of Shump before the draft are still valid.He is the only situation where i feel I may of been wrong with his picks.

                          The team could be better but I think the East is better as well. i also am not counting on the teams 2 ridiculous runs that they had .I also dont think they will slump as bad. The beginning and the end combined was half the season they went 34-7, Thats insane. Thats almost a 70 win team. The middle part they were 20-21 ,a 40 win team. Thats a huge discrepancy. Injuries played a part but everyone had injuries. Boston was without their best player, Boston was without theirs, Pacers we thought were without theirs.
                          If u look at the end of the season the players going out dont appear to be a big deal. The only player I would want if I could is Copeland.He has value in trades. Kidd however was a big part of the teams early success. Its to bad we ran him into the ground, He lost his confidence as he felt his skills diminish.Sad watching a guy who is second All Time in 3 pointers made afraid to shoot the ball.I still think this team has a huge hole at PG. Not getting 1 I think could end up costing them the season.I'm hoping 1 of these vets takes the Knicks money but I think they are being scared away by the Knicks handing the back up job to Prigs

                          Artest is a good signing in terms of value. Im not sure how much he will help. The only thing that worries me about this signing is that it may cost the Knicks Kenyon Martin. I think Martin is more of a need then Artest. If we get both great but if signing Artest means we lost Martin then it wasnt worth it..

                          Brigs is the key to the offseason, He is very skilled with fantastic movement skills for his size.He looks like a number 1 pick.Maybe he lost his drive to play in Toronto. If he can turn into Pau Gasol in his prome or a middle class Dirk ,the Knicks can be contenders.
                          i don't disagree with anything you said really. although i'm not sure walsh had to convince dolan to create cap space for the summer of lebron. i could be wrong though i didn't follow the team nearly as closely back then.

                          who did you want over shump? faried?

                          i hope we're able to retain kmart and add another big and another pg. what do you think of tyler as an bench big (he's on the summer league team). i agree that bargs will be a big key to how well the knicks do this season and in the playoffs. along with the overall health of the team.

                          there's a lot of "ifs"... but if everyone stays healthy and if bargs can regain form along with amare, the knicks will be very good and i think can potentially at least make it to the conference finals. a big if is also how well melo plays alongside some of the new additions.

                          kidd was kind of a bum for us but it was obvious to me melo respected him and he made a lot of buckets off of setups by him. they had pretty good chemistry together. if melo can stay healthy and plays well along with everybody else chipping in, the knicks can be dangerous in the playoffs.

                          we'll see how it all works out. i'm not a huge supporter of woodson but i do think he is a good coach and he'll get the best out of our guys. the JR injury to me could be a blessing because if he was dealing with it all year and still played that well, imagine how well he can play if fully healthy. also i think the addition of artest could place JR is a slightly smaller role as far as minutes. JR will still be our gunner off the bench but i think woody will lean on artest more in the closing moments of games.

                          best starting lineup imo:

                          felton
                          shump
                          melo
                          bargs
                          chandler

                          potential closing lineup:

                          felton
                          shump/JR (depending on who's playing well and/or the matchup)
                          melo
                          artest
                          chandler


                          woodson will have a lot of options with both the starting lineup and the closing lineup. artest/bargs/amare/jr/shump can all be swapped in or out depending on the matchups and/or how well they're playing.

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                          • from what i've read about bobby brown, he is a very talented and athletic offensive player but a terrible defender. not sure that's what the knicks need but who knows. a 3rd pg will likely not get many minutes anyway unless an injury occurs.

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                            • from what i've read about bobby brown, he is a very talented and athletic offensive player but a terrible defender. not sure that's what the knicks need but who knows. a 3rd pg will likely not get many minutes anyway unless an injury occurs.

                              i'm more concerned with getting at least 1 more quality big. hopefully kmart.

                              felton / pablo / vet min
                              shump / jr / hardaway
                              melo / world peace (artest lol) / leslie
                              bargs / amare
                              chandler / kmart / tyler

                              that's 14 players if we sign another pg, tyler and kmart. (also assuming leslie makes the team). so leslie and tyler could be sent down to the d-league to develop and call them up if an injury occurs. still space for 1 more player too, maybe another vet big.

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                              • Originally posted by kNicksGiants View Post
                                from what i've read about bobby brown, he is a very talented and athletic offensive player but a terrible defender. not sure that's what the knicks need but who knows. a 3rd pg will likely not get many minutes anyway unless an injury occurs.
                                Perfect for a 3rd string PG... IMO

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