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  • #31
    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not[/quote]

    I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke down[/quote]Agreed.[/quote]

    me too.

    and where are you guys getting that he can't run block from? maybe i just have martin pegged wrong but tbh, i feel i am correct on him bc of mayocks analysis...he's one of the few guys i do trust with player analysis.

    Martin could absolutely be a LT, but if we take him he'll be our starting RT day one...

    i think u guys are severely diminishing martins ability bc he lined up next to decastro...Martin was a huge reason Luck had the success he did, he kept Luck upright and i cant remember ONE blindside hit Luck took in college...

    but i dunno im getting really excited about this draft. we could go in so many directions...WR/TE/OL/DT/DE...

    i just pray that whoever we take rd 1, that a guy like randle, l.miller, d.wilson, a.jeffery falls to us.

    my dream scenario is Fleener/Wright rd 1, then Randle/L.Miller rd 2, OL or DL rd. 3 and then whatever is the BPA....

    edit-Juice, our run game didnt suddenly get awesome when DD went to LT, our run game still struggled pretty badly up until the final week of the reg. season...it wasn't even more than avg in the playoffs either...eli and the pass game carried the offense to the point teams were conceding the run to defend the pass...

    and ur opinion would make more sense to me if we were a team that liked to run off teh edge...we were primarily an up the middle run team. and beatty actually showed alot of athleticsm in the run block, i can remember quite a few plays where he sealed off his defender and then took off upfield to get another block...

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

      [quote user="juice33s"]Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable
      [/quote]

      Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

      For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


      This season -
      Left End - 4.03 ypc
      Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
      mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
      right tackle - 3.50 ypc
      right end - 3.74 ypc

      2010
      LE - 3.44 ypc
      LT - 4.31 ypc
      mid/guard - 4.48
      RT - 4.39
      RE - 3.89

      2009
      LE - 4.11
      LT - 4.04
      mid - 4.04
      RT - 4.56
      RE - 4.19

      So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

      Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

      Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

      Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

      Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

      2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
      open field yards - 3rd in the league

      2011
      2nd level yards - 29th
      open field yards - 29th

      So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

      Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


      In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

      Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

        [quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not[/quote]

        I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke down[/quote]Agreed.[/quote]

        me too.

        and where are you guys getting that he can't run block from? maybe i just have martin pegged wrong but tbh, i feel i am correct on him bc of mayocks analysis...he's one of the few guys i do trust with player analysis.

        Martin could absolutely be a LT, but if we take him he'll be our starting RT day one...

        i think u guys are severely diminishing martins ability bc he lined up next to decastro...Martin was a huge reason Luck had the success he did, he kept Luck upright and i cant remember ONE blindside hit Luck took in college...

        but i dunno im getting really excited about this draft. we could go in so many directions...WR/TE/OL/DT/DE...

        i just pray that whoever we take rd 1, that a guy like randle, l.miller, d.wilson, a.jeffery falls to us.

        my dream scenario is Fleener/Wright rd 1, then Randle/L.Miller rd 2, OL or DL rd. 3 and then whatever is the BPA....

        edit-Juice, our run game didnt suddenly get awesome when DD went to LT, our run game still struggled pretty badly up until the final week of the reg. season...it wasn't even more than avg in the playoffs either...eli and the pass game carried the offense to the point teams were conceding the run to defend the pass...

        and ur opinion would make more sense to me if we were a team that liked to run off teh edge...we were primarily an up the middle run team. and beatty actually showed alot of athleticsm in the run block, i can remember quite a few plays where he sealed off his defender and then took off upfield to get another block...[/quote]
        DP








        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

          Disgard last post let me try that again:

          Let me break it down for you:
          Beatty in line up
          10 games- 263 att 832yds 3.16 avg

          With out Beatty
          10 games- 260 att 1061yds 4.1 avg


          We're
          talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
          a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
          last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
          you guys think that LG is to blame?

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

            [quote user="juice33s"]We're
            talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
            a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
            last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
            you guys think that LG is to blame?
            [/quote]

            Your stats do not support your argument. Sorry.


            I broke it down by exactly where the giants struggled and where they did well. Overall running numbers are meaningless if we are trying to single out an individual member.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...



              [quote user="Shockeyitus"]not sold on Martin... DeCastro was such a beast in college that it made Martin look good. Pass![/quote]




              Agree DeCastro made others around him look better. DeCastro will be an All-pro for years to come

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                did u see slips post? u just proved our point...outside the LT was the best ypc running the ball.

                the interior WAS A DISASTER...also, DD was THE WORST RANKED OL AT BOTH T AND G...

                beatty doesnt get near the respect he should. he held his own vs opponents best pass rusher, and did a good job run blocking. plus he was way more athletic than DD in getting to the second level, i remember quite a few plays where i couldnt believe beatty was as quick as he showed, he was getting the block on the de, sealing him off forcing him inside, and then he'd take off and get in front of the rb to make another block.

                he made one amazing block too i forget vs who but he was able to make the initial block, swing out wide, then cut blocked a defender coming in free and completely opened up a huge alley.
                and dont forget this was his first year starting.

                i dislike how he has been hurt quite a bit tho...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                  [quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
                  I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                    [quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
                    I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

                    doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

                    for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
                    wright
                    fleener
                    randle
                    chandler jones
                    john martin
                    nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
                    doug martin

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                      [quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
                      I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

                      doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

                      for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
                      wright
                      fleener
                      randle
                      chandler jones
                      john martin
                      nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
                      doug martin[/quote]
                      In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                        [quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
                        I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

                        doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

                        for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
                        wright
                        fleener
                        randle
                        chandler jones
                        john martin
                        nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
                        doug martin[/quote]
                        In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.[/quote]
                        I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.


                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                          [quote user="Neverend"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="Neverend"]Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

                          I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

                          no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.[/quote]

                          its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

                          and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

                          mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...[/quote]

                          Kind of struggles against power, then again so does kalil at times

                          but for the most part, i just dislike how reactive he is in pass protection. he reacts to the defensive lineman, he isn't the aggressor. because of it, he can struggle against savvy/technique/power rushers (double moves, rip/swats, up-and-under). many people in the social media calls him fineese and soft and you can see it with his technique. im not a fan of his

                          and when he actually does try to be the aggressor and punches the rusher before the rusher contacts him, he lunges or waist bends. i personally think he might bust in the NFL[/quote]Yeah he scares me as well. He is very susceptible inside. I would be upset if they picked him in the first round. Seems more like a late 2nd Round prospect. Honestly i would rather have Mike Adams and I dont like him very much either. I like Massie better then both those guys

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                            [quote user="BlueSanta"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
                            I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

                            doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

                            for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
                            wright
                            fleener
                            randle
                            chandler jones
                            john martin
                            nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
                            doug martin[/quote]
                            In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.[/quote]
                            I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.


                            [/quote]
                            Well, if some top 15 player falls to us then that's different, but I think that Doug Martin should be higher ranked than experts seem to have him ranked at. Almost all mocks have him as a 2nd round pick, but I think that he's 1st round talent.

                            Mayock has him ranked # 17 and I'm thinking that he's right.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                              [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable
                              [/quote]

                              Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

                              For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


                              This season -
                              Left End - 4.03 ypc
                              Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
                              mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
                              right tackle - 3.50 ypc
                              right end - 3.74 ypc

                              2010
                              LE - 3.44 ypc
                              LT - 4.31 ypc
                              mid/guard - 4.48
                              RT - 4.39
                              RE - 3.89

                              2009
                              LE - 4.11
                              LT - 4.04
                              mid - 4.04
                              RT - 4.56
                              RE - 4.19

                              So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

                              Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

                              Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

                              Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

                              Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

                              2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
                              open field yards - 3rd in the league

                              2011
                              2nd level yards - 29th
                              open field yards - 29th

                              So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

                              Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


                              In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

                              Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.[/quote]I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

                                [quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable
                                [/quote]

                                Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

                                For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


                                This season -
                                Left End - 4.03 ypc
                                Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
                                mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
                                right tackle - 3.50 ypc
                                right end - 3.74 ypc

                                2010
                                LE - 3.44 ypc
                                LT - 4.31 ypc
                                mid/guard - 4.48
                                RT - 4.39
                                RE - 3.89

                                2009
                                LE - 4.11
                                LT - 4.04
                                mid - 4.04
                                RT - 4.56
                                RE - 4.19

                                So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

                                Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

                                Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

                                Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

                                Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

                                2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
                                open field yards - 3rd in the league

                                2011
                                2nd level yards - 29th
                                open field yards - 29th

                                So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

                                Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


                                In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

                                Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.[/quote]I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year[/quote]I'm not ready to give up on Snee yet. Personally I think it was just a down year for him. This year he'll return to form.

                                Comment

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