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  • #46
    Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
    Your last sentence pretty much explains that issue with the lack of discussion of a 1st round OT going to this team. Behind QBs and pass rushers, OT prospects who can offer good potential to play on the blind side are highly drafted and it's very possible (more probable) that Joeckel, Fisher, and Lane are all taken before our pick. No pure RTs are worthy of the selection and since our defense took a noticeable decline in 2012, people are concerned about the future of our front 7.
    I'm not so sure... I think we have the talent on our roster at nearly every position of need other than MLB... other than that what defense needs is quality depth, and you don't draft depth round 1.

    DE: The only reason we'd keep Ojomo as a 5th DE on the roster and then never use him is because the team has long-term plans for this kid. Otherwise he would have been quietly waived to IR or PS. Yeah we used to do that with promising development projects (like Cruz), but then Belicheck sniped Ballard...

    DT: I think Kuhn exceeded expectations massively as a 7th round rookie. Admittedly, expectations weren't that high to begin with, but I hope this guy can recover from his ACL. If not, then DT would be the 2nd neediest position on defense.

    OLB: Mostly what is needed here is depth for the injury-prone Rivers. I could see Williams taking over as our weakside LB, and Rivers on Strong side as Kiwi goes back to DE.

    MLB: As I said this is the one glaring need that we can't fill with existing personnel. Herzlich was a nice story but ulimately can't cut it in the NFL. If we pick Ogletree or even Te'o at #19 (JR picking him is evidence enough for me that the recent scandal won't affect his ability to play) I won't have much problem with it.

    CB: I think Hosley might have more upside than some people think, and showed dramatically improved play towards the end of the season. In the ravens game, he was largely ignored in favor of Corey Toaster. CB is one of the harder positions to adjust to the NFL level in, and I'm not ready to call Hosley a "bust" or a "slot corner only" just yet.

    S: Mega-stacked here, we could lose 1 of KP, Stevie, Rolle and still be stacked to be completely honest. 2 is pushing it though. If we somehow keep all of them i'd even say we could roll without a dedicated slot corner and just use 3 safety sets as our primary nickel package...


    Main concerns on defense:
    1) Osi needs to be gone. I'm sorry, he was once great on this team, but now teams can run on him every time and get almost-guaranteed first downs. I think Blackburn gets too much flak for our run defense when it's Osi that was giving up play after play...

    2) Let Kiwi rotate in on DE more. He's far more effective there than at LB. I'd almost make him the starter LDE at this point and let Tuck and Ojomo rotate in.

    3) Get a better strength and conditioning coach. Way too many injuries killed our defense last year...

    I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite team in the NFL.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Toadofsteel View Post
      I'm not so sure... I think we have the talent on our roster at nearly every position of need other than MLB... other than that what defense needs is quality depth, and you don't draft depth round 1.
      Why not? There are plenty of 1st round picks in this league that start out as depth and spend time understanding the scheme their rookie year while getting limited time. That's what JPP was in 2010 and even if Prince wasn't injured in 2011, it was highly unlikely he would have received the starting nod over Ross right off the bat. Lots of these picks end up becoming future needs anyhow and that's something the Giants have been really good at.

      DE: The only reason we'd keep Ojomo as a 5th DE on the roster and then never use him is because the team has long-term plans for this kid. Otherwise he would have been quietly waived to IR or PS. Yeah we used to do that with promising development projects (like Cruz), but then Belicheck sniped Ballard...
      Or it's possible that the coaching staff believes he can become the next Tolly for us. Even if we do assume that he is going to pan out and become a full time starter at some point, that still only leaves us with two DEs and we know this organization prefers to have 3 solid pass rushers. Why not take one in a draft that has great talent at the position and if teams above us reach for a QB, we have a chance at a great prospect.

      DT: I think Kuhn exceeded expectations massively as a 7th round rookie. Admittedly, expectations weren't that high to begin with, but I hope this guy can recover from his ACL. If not, then DT would be the 2nd neediest position on defense.
      Kuhn made a few plays out there but he was pushed around a lot even when he had 1-on-1 matchups and was a liability in the run game. Granted, he was a very raw rookie but don't forget that he will be 27 years old heading into next season and coming off the ACL injury. Not sure we should chalk him up to a sure thing just yet. Don't forget that Bernard is sliding off and Joseph is in his last year in 2013 too.

      OLB: Mostly what is needed here is depth for the injury-prone Rivers. I could see Williams taking over as our weakside LB, and Rivers on Strong side as Kiwi goes back to DE.
      If Williams can stay healthy, we should be fine here at weakside and that's really the important OLB position. Strongside isn't that big of a deal but it would be a huge plus if we could get someone way more dynamic than what Kiwi offered us at the position. I don't get the Kiwi fascination with him moving to DE since it's been years that he was actually doing something good there but it's a quick patch up job in the minds of people I suppose.

      MLB: As I said this is the one glaring need that we can't fill with existing personnel. Herzlich was a nice story but ulimately can't cut it in the NFL. If we pick Ogletree or even Te'o at #19 (JR picking him is evidence enough for me that the recent scandal won't affect his ability to play) I won't have much problem with it.
      It'll depend on what Reese thinks of some of the later round prospects at the same position. Ogletree offers good upside and has great athletic traits for the job so Reese picking him isn't out of the realm of possibility but if he thinks he can find a later round gem, you know he isn't taking an early round LBer.

      CB: I think Hosley might have more upside than some people think, and showed dramatically improved play towards the end of the season. In the ravens game, he was largely ignored in favor of Corey Toaster. CB is one of the harder positions to adjust to the NFL level in, and I'm not ready to call Hosley a "bust" or a "slot corner only" just yet.
      Not really sure what people saw in Hosley to be confident in his abilities to be a full time starter on the outside but I'll admit the fact he could cover some WRs like Steve Smith outside the numbers if needed. Even if you disagree, there isn't much promise outside of Prince and Hosley at the position and we all know you need at least 3 solid guys to play CB. Lots of solid mid round guys and why not grab a guy to groom behind Webster as he plays his last year with us?

      1) Osi needs to be gone. I'm sorry, he was once great on this team, but now teams can run on him every time and get almost-guaranteed first downs. I think Blackburn gets too much flak for our run defense when it's Osi that was giving up play after play...
      Unless Osi comes back to a team-friendly contract, I doubt he returns. Blackburn gets flak because of his lack of sideline to sideline speed in the run game and the fact he is way overhyped on these boards because of a few splash plays.

      Fact is you look at both sides of the football and it's just too obvious which side needs more help. We already drafted 3 potential Ts the last two years and it would be a little hasty to just give up on them. Beatty didn't really flash until his 3rd year after all. OL prospects require patience.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
        I would think they'd of wanted more outta Kiwi as a 1st rd pick, don't you? Adrian Tracy as a later rd pick has been underwhelming as well.. Obviously albeit, a later rd pick is tougher to hit on , but still.. I'm not happy with kiwi's production as a 1st rder, thats for sure... Glimpses is all we ever got...
        Tracey is a 6th round project pick. Not sure his failure to emerge is a knock on the Giants ability to select pass rushers.

        Certainly, I wanted more out of Kiwi, but he is still a contributing player 7 years later. Not exactly a bust.

        No team has a 100% hit ratio at any position. But the Giants have a good (albeit not perfect) history of finding pass rushers.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
          Tracey is a 6th round project pick. Not sure his failure to emerge is a knock on the Giants ability to select pass rushers.

          Certainly, I wanted more out of Kiwi, but he is still a contributing player 7 years later. Not exactly a bust.

          No team has a 100% hit ratio at any position. But the Giants have a good (albeit not perfect) history of finding pass rushers.
          No one said he was a bust, did they? Simply said would of wanted more outta him... He hasent been as good as u want a 1st rd pick to be, in my opinion.. More often then not, almost every game it seems, i don't even realize the guys on the field.. I gurantee u, most of my non chalont football friends have no idea who Kiwi is, and thats playing 7yrs on the team as u said..
          To be honest, its kinda annoying he gets a pass from some of u like he does.. This is a guy who was a sack master at BC and has great physical attributes and the ability to stand up, play in a 3pt stance, and do mulitple things on a football field, and yet, hes got very little production and even in our playoff runs, did very little to help...

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          • #50
            Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
            No one said he was a bust, did they? Simply said would of wanted more outta him... He hasent been as good as u want a 1st rd pick to be, in my opinion.. More often then not, almost every game it seems, i don't even realize the guys on the field.. I gurantee u, most of my non chalont football friends have no idea who Kiwi is, and thats playing 7yrs on the team as u said..
            To be honest, its kinda annoying he gets a pass from some of u like he does.. This is a guy who was a sack master at BC and has great physical attributes and the ability to stand up, play in a 3pt stance, and do mulitple things on a football field, and yet, hes got very little production and even in our playoff runs, did very little to help...
            My point was that the Giants are good at finding pass rushers. Do you disagree with that because of the selection of Kiwi 7 years ago and the sixth round selection of Tracey?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
              Or it's possible that the coaching staff believes he can become the next Tolly for us. Even if we do assume that he is going to pan out and become a full time starter at some point, that still only leaves us with two DEs and we know this organization prefers to have 3 solid pass rushers. Why not take one in a draft that has great talent at the position and if teams above us reach for a QB, we have a chance at a great prospect.
              I'm down for a later round (and by later I mean as early as the 2nd round). But the 1st round we NEED an OT.

              Kuhn made a few plays out there but he was pushed around a lot even when he had 1-on-1 matchups and was a liability in the run game. Granted, he was a very raw rookie but don't forget that he will be 27 years old heading into next season and coming off the ACL injury. Not sure we should chalk him up to a sure thing just yet. Don't forget that Bernard is sliding off and Joseph is in his last year in 2013 too.
              I think we'll find a way to lock up Joseph. Bernard wasn't even supposed to be here in 2012 and was only signed because Canty was on PUP. I do remember saying this was the 2nd biggest area of need on defense, especially if Kuhn can't recover from that ACL.

              If Williams can stay healthy, we should be fine here at weakside and that's really the important OLB position. Strongside isn't that big of a deal but it would be a huge plus if we could get someone way more dynamic than what Kiwi offered us at the position. I don't get the Kiwi fascination with him moving to DE since it's been years that he was actually doing something good there but it's a quick patch up job in the minds of people I suppose.
              I think Rivers would be more dynamic on the strong side, but just like Williams it's a health issue with Rivers. Cincy was all too happy to deal him away because of this fact. However, when healthy he has a tremendous impact. Also, because of the injuries, we should be able to sign him for a lot cheaper.

              It'll depend on what Reese thinks of some of the later round prospects at the same position. Ogletree offers good upside and has great athletic traits for the job so Reese picking him isn't out of the realm of possibility but if he thinks he can find a later round gem, you know he isn't taking an early round LBer.
              As I said, I wouldn't scream if we took Ogletree or even Te'o in the 1st round. But I still believe OT is a "need now" kind of situation.

              Not really sure what people saw in Hosley to be confident in his abilities to be a full time starter on the outside but I'll admit the fact he could cover some WRs like Steve Smith outside the numbers if needed. Even if you disagree, there isn't much promise outside of Prince and Hosley at the position and we all know you need at least 3 solid guys to play CB. Lots of solid mid round guys and why not grab a guy to groom behind Webster as he plays his last year with us?
              A later round CB (just like DT, DE, MLB) would be an ideal solution. So in essence I agree with you.

              Unless Osi comes back to a team-friendly contract, I doubt he returns. Blackburn gets flak because of his lack of sideline to sideline speed in the run game and the fact he is way overhyped on these boards because of a few splash plays.
              I'm not saying he doesn't need to be replaced, but it does give us the option of, as you were saying, taking a late-round pick that has the athletic ability but less experience, and developing him instead of throwing him into the fire. I believe Blackburn would be a great mentor in this regard, as he was just about to settle down to be a teacher. It's just that Herzlich is just as non-athletic as Blackburn, which is why I say we need someone with the physical athleticism who can be developed.k

              Fact is you look at both sides of the football and it's just too obvious which side needs more help. We already drafted 3 potential Ts the last two years and it would be a little hasty to just give up on them. Beatty didn't really flash until his 3rd year after all. OL prospects require patience.
              I do look at both sides. I feel as though while the majority of our draft should be spend on defense, we still need to reserve either our first or second round pick on an OT. Our offense would be pretty solid if we had a better RT and C (though Baas isn't going anywhere). I also wouldn't be averse to picking up a G since Snee is bound to go the way of Diehl any day now.

              All the OT we've drafted since Beatty have been 4th round or later. Only one I still hold out any hope for at all is that Mosley guy (and thats only if he recovers from his injury to 100%). Brewer is so bad he can't crack a starting position featuring David freaking Diehl. Mccants I never really saw anything in, as he was getting abused by 3rd and 4th string DE.
              Last edited by Toadofsteel; 01-29-2013, 11:02 AM.

              I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite team in the NFL.

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              • #52
                So many RTs in this league have been found in the mid to later rounds and teams get to the playoffs all the time with just an average guy playing there. You have more confidence in a guy we haven't really even see yet on the field that came from a spread offense versus a guy who has been in the system already for two years and is a more natural RT for the Giants offensive system. McKenzie was the last great RT this franchise fielded and Brewer came out of Indiana as a more raw but also more athletic version of him. Don't forget that one of Coughlin's biggest weaknesses is trusting his veterans a little too much so I wouldn't look into Diehl's position on the depth chart too much. Now if we were in a position to where we didn't need to retool so many positions on the defense for the future, we could be more liberal and take a less "important" position with the 1st or 2nd.

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