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A look at the12'-13' NFL draft

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  • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nevada11"][quote user="Raptor22"][quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nevada11"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]Have U watched tape at all. Brockers is not explosive. He wasnt on the field on passing downs. What does that tell u

    JPP has nothing to do with this at all. He isnt close to the same player as Brockers.[/quote]

    its so easy to say that now because you have watched JPP pan out in the NFL. A lot of people thought jpp was gonna bust and was overrated too

    Coming out of college JPP was praised for his upside! Why? The very one reason is because he had a verrrry rare wingspan and length. 81 inch wingspan and 36 inch arms! He was seen as an athletic freak coming out and had so much upside

    Brockers has an even LONGER wingspan at 83 inches and 35 inch arms. He has amazing upside and is going to be great at rushing the passer in the nfl. He is very raw just like JPP coming out too. JPP showed flashes of greatness and so did Brockers. If JPP had so much upside coming out but Brockers doesnt?[/quote] For the life of me I cant figure out why you are comparing a 310 pound DT to a 270 pound DE as a valid comparison.
    Have u seen Brockers play? In no shape way or form does he remind me of JPP. Its not because of how raw he is either. He just isnt the same kind of player .the only thing that they both have his length.Brockers reminds me of Chris Canty and in fact Id say Canty was quicker then Brockers at Virginia.

    Im not even saying I dislike Brockers as a prospect just wouldnt rate a non pass rushing DT that high[/quote]

    My only caveat here is that Brockers is very young as well as raw... He's added so much mass in the last 2 years, I highly doubt he really has much of a feel for his body at all. Pass rushing demands a certain grace, agility, and flexibility, that I don't think he's had a chance to develop yet. He may never... but he might, just like JPP. Same with strength. So much of strength is in the mind-muscle connection and getting your body to do what you want, when you want. Young guys just don't have that.

    Right now, all he has is his size. He is a BIG kid, so that's what he uses. But if he can put it all together, that is a scary dude.

    Brockers probably SHOULD have stayed in college for another year, maybe 2.
    [/quote]

    Thank you! Its an adjustment playing at that weight. Can you imagine when this kid puts it all together with his JPP-like wingspan playing in the interior? He will be unblockable in the NFL

    I really really think if JPP come out a lot of people in this thread would say his upside and athleticism was overrated. And you know what, a lot of people did! Not many knew JPP was going to be the slam dunk player he was now. A lot of people thought he was boom or bust[/quote]Funny how u ignored my comment about him carrying the weight as I mentioned it already.

    Even with the added weight as a contributing factor which it could be. The comparison to JPP makes zero sense.Brockers no matter what can never attain that quickness
    Why dont U compare him to a guy that plays the same position.U want to tell me he could maybe develop into Richard Seymour I might buy it.[/quote]

    They are very similar players coming out. Both have bad stuff in games. Both were considered overrated coming out and disliked by many. Both have elite wingspan and loads of upside.

    He can "never attain that quickness". Redeye this one is harsh even for you. He is RAW. He can learn how to be quick off the snap with more experience! As he grows into his body and play lower he can become quick and explosive. In no time he should develop his technique coming off the ball on time and timing the snap count consistently

    He is the defensive version of JPP. He will become a beast

    U are totally wrong here

    Comment


    • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

      [quote user="nevada11"][quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nevada11"][quote user="Raptor22"][quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nevada11"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]Have U watched tape at all. Brockers is not explosive. He wasnt on the field on passing downs. What does that tell u

      JPP has nothing to do with this at all. He isnt close to the same player as Brockers.[/quote]

      its so easy to say that now because you have watched JPP pan out in the NFL. A lot of people thought jpp was gonna bust and was overrated too

      Coming out of college JPP was praised for his upside! Why? The very one reason is because he had a verrrry rare wingspan and length. 81 inch wingspan and 36 inch arms! He was seen as an athletic freak coming out and had so much upside

      Brockers has an even LONGER wingspan at 83 inches and 35 inch arms. He has amazing upside and is going to be great at rushing the passer in the nfl. He is very raw just like JPP coming out too. JPP showed flashes of greatness and so did Brockers. If JPP had so much upside coming out but Brockers doesnt?[/quote] For the life of me I cant figure out why you are comparing a 310 pound DT to a 270 pound DE as a valid comparison.
      Have u seen Brockers play? In no shape way or form does he remind me of JPP. Its not because of how raw he is either. He just isnt the same kind of player .the only thing that they both have his length.Brockers reminds me of Chris Canty and in fact Id say Canty was quicker then Brockers at Virginia.

      Im not even saying I dislike Brockers as a prospect just wouldnt rate a non pass rushing DT that high[/quote]

      My only caveat here is that Brockers is very young as well as raw... He's added so much mass in the last 2 years, I highly doubt he really has much of a feel for his body at all. Pass rushing demands a certain grace, agility, and flexibility, that I don't think he's had a chance to develop yet. He may never... but he might, just like JPP. Same with strength. So much of strength is in the mind-muscle connection and getting your body to do what you want, when you want. Young guys just don't have that.

      Right now, all he has is his size. He is a BIG kid, so that's what he uses. But if he can put it all together, that is a scary dude.

      Brockers probably SHOULD have stayed in college for another year, maybe 2.
      [/quote]

      Thank you! Its an adjustment playing at that weight. Can you imagine when this kid puts it all together with his JPP-like wingspan playing in the interior? He will be unblockable in the NFL

      I really really think if JPP come out a lot of people in this thread would say his upside and athleticism was overrated. And you know what, a lot of people did! Not many knew JPP was going to be the slam dunk player he was now. A lot of people thought he was boom or bust[/quote]Funny how u ignored my comment about him carrying the weight as I mentioned it already.

      Even with the added weight as a contributing factor which it could be. The comparison to JPP makes zero sense.Brockers no matter what can never attain that quickness
      Why dont U compare him to a guy that plays the same position.U want to tell me he could maybe develop into Richard Seymour I might buy it.[/quote]

      They are very similar players coming out. Both have bad stuff in games. Both were considered overrated coming out and disliked by many. Both have elite wingspan and loads of upside.

      He can "never attain that quickness". Redeye this one is harsh even for you. He is RAW. He can learn how to be quick off the snap with more experience! As he grows into his body and play lower he can become quick and explosive. In no time he should develop his technique coming off the ball on time and timing the snap count consistently

      He is the defensive version of JPP. He will become a beast

      U are totally wrong here[/quote] I meant he will never match JPP's quickness because he is a 310lb DT. My issue is with your comparison it makes no sense. Just because a player is long doesnt mean he is like JPP. I dont see Brockers doing Back flips. So every player that has length is JPP. George Illoka has long arms is he JPP. I wonder if u have actually watched Brockers play because his game in no shape way or form resembles JPP's. Right Now he looks like Chris Canty . Could he develop into Seymour and be a 6-7 sack guy maybe ,but he isnt going to have 16 sacks coming off the edge.

      Comment


      • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

        I like how its turned into now that I dont like Brockers.
        I think Brockers has tremendous potential. He is an elite level run defender but as a pass rusher on tape there isnt much there. Again LSU pulled him off the field for other DT's on passing downs. Now again this is LSU and they have more depth then most programs. If Brockers was at say Penn State he may be rushing the passer on 3rd down. The things that stick out though. Elite level pass rushers from the DT spot have been 1 gap shooters and he isnt that kind of player. Brockers could develop into a dominate physical presence inside. I feel he could even develop into a great 2 gap player maybe even bulk him up into a Nose Tackle

        Comment


        • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

          Nevada, you make some really good solid points. But I just don't see the pass rush potential. "Long arms = great pass rush ability"? That's a ridiculous logic to follow... for an interior DT that is

          It's more like explosiveness and quickness = great pass rush ability. If the player has great length. Fine, thats a great bonus but that doesn't mean you can just base someone's ability as a pass rusher on that alone.

          Long arms in pass rush help immensely when keeping your blockers body off of you. That's more helpful on the edge as I was trying to explain to another guy on these boards. But when you're pass rushing inside, you're not trying to keep blockers "off of you" because they're moving backwards. You have to BEAT them with quickness and explosiveness which Brockers lacks. Then once you gain a step you can slap away their arms and such but since you're in a phone booth/short area arm length is a pretty irrelevant factor in such circumstances. Why? Its rather how sudden/quick/violent you are with your arms/hands when you're trying to rip/swat... not whether ur arms are 33 or 35 inches

          You're the one who is wrong here. Just because Brockers has 35 inch arms does not make him JPP or a great pass rusher in general. Canty is an excellent comparison. A guy who is an excellent run stuffer and can win with power but doesn't get much pressure overall

          Comment


          • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

            Nevada, you make some really good solid points. But I just don't see the pass rush potential. "Long arms = great pass rush ability"? That's a ridiculous logic to follow... for an interior DT that is

            It's more like explosiveness and quickness = great pass rush ability. If the player has great length. Fine, thats a great bonus but that doesn't mean you can just base someone's ability as a pass rusher on that alone.

            Long arms in pass rush help immensely when keeping your blockers body off of you. That's more helpful on the edge as I was trying to explain to another guy on these boards. But when you're pass rushing inside, you're not trying to keep blockers "off of you" because they're moving backwards. You have to BEAT them with quickness and explosiveness which Brockers lacks. Then once you gain a step you can slap away their arms and such but since you're in a phone booth/short area arm length is a pretty irrelevant factor in such circumstances. Why? Its rather how sudden/quick/violent you are with your arms/hands when you're trying to rip/swat... not whether ur arms are 33 or 35 inches

            You're the one who is wrong here. Just because Brockers has 35 inch arms does not make him JPP or a great pass rusher in general. Canty is an excellent comparison. A guy who is an excellent run stuffer and can win with power but doesn't get much pressure overall

            Comment


            • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

              Sportzfan Ive seen some mocks putting Mcclenin in the First Round. On Football Futures when I talked about him in the beginning of the CFB season everyone I showed the game to said he was a late rounder. Same guys are praising him now. I dont think Shea is a First rounder but he is better then he was getting credit for during the season. I see a lot of comparisons to Brooks Reed

              Comment


              • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                [quote user="Redeyejedi"]Sportzfan Ive seen some mocks putting Mcclenin in the First Round. On Football Futures when I talked about him in the beginning of the CFB season everyone I showed the game to said he was a late rounder. Same guys are praising him now. I dont think Shea is a First rounder but he is better then he was getting credit for during the season. I see a lot of comparisons to Brooks Reed[/quote] ya, i remember us talking about him before the first game of the season.. I'd be surprised if he goes RD 1, but it woulden't be a surprise if he goes RD 2, at any point in the rd... Brooks Reed is a great comparison..

                Comment


                • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                  Good job redeye of slowly backing away from your initial comments. YOU are the one who said brockers offers nothing as a pass rusher and now you are saying he could be semour. Love it

                  For the fact that brockers supposedly offers nothing as a pass rusher, is limited only to a NT, has no quickness, or has no burst:

                  [link]http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664406[/link]

                  for the lazy ones.. ill quote it:

                  Only registered two sacks in 2011 but appears to have blossoming natural pass rush skills. Good initial quickness off the snap and flashes an explosive burst to split gaps.
                  LMAO. Tell me again he offers "nothing as a pass rusher" redeye. Tell me again neverend he has no quickness and can't split gaps?!

                  It gets better

                  Flashes enough quickness off the snap to threaten gaps at three-technique, especially when slanting.
                  Yeah! He's only a 1-technique fellas! No quickness to get pressure!

                  [link]http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=41015[/link]

                  Showcases a good get off burst and when he keeps his pad level down has the ability to gain leverage, extend his arms and use his long arms to shed
                  He shows a BURST when he plays with a good pad level. He is RAW so he doesnt know how to do it consistently yet. Neither did JPP coming out! He showed flashes of greatness when he played with the right technique but rarely did at USF! And Brockers is still getting used to his body! Key word: DEVELOP not "overrated"

                  [link]http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012/01/michael-brockers-scouting-report.html[/link]

                  That scouting report says his issues as a pass rusher is because he lacks moves and plays too high! And I already talked about how he needs to learn how to come off the snap better so he can become more quick.

                  So I'm supposed to take the word of scouting evaluators or people who judge brockers based off of 1 or 2 games on youtube? I didn't say he IS jpp I said the situation coming out of the draft is comparable. They both are freaks, both have wingspans, both looked bad and inconsistent in games, both are raw, and both have incredible upside.

                  I am through with this. I am looking forward to Michael Brockers proving everyone here very wrong. Once he learns to play consistently low and time the snap better his lack of "quickness and burst" and "offers nothing as a pass rusher" will be a thing of the past.

                  Comment


                  • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                    Good job of supporting your argument here. I still think you're taking the wrong stance on this one

                    You're basing your opinion purely on those scouting reports -- not what you see in games. Now, I'm nowhere near as qualified as those scouts but I don't think it takes a scout to see that Brocker isn't a great pass rusher

                    Note the key term in those scouting reports "flashes". Canty at times flashes penetration in the backfield, but does he do it a consistent basis like Robbins did? No, just maybe once every 3 or 4 games

                    The lower you are into your stance, the better burst you get. The same facts apply to the CB position.. the lower your backpeddal is the more burst you have out of the break. This same argument of "getting low = better burst" applies to EVERY single player at every single position. Low man wins all the time. He also uses the adjective "good" get off burst, not "great", which is what the top interior pass rushers possess in this draft, putting their inconsistencies aside

                    Point blank, you can try and try to make as many excuses for Brockers as you want but he likely will not be a dynamic pass rusher in the NFL. He "could" be but based on players who came into the draft with his skill set, they rarely ever do materialize into great 3-techniques. Sorry.

                    Comment


                    • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                      [quote user="nevada11"]Good job redeye of slowly backing away from your initial comments. YOU are the one who said brockers offers nothing as a pass rusher and now you are saying he could be semour. Love it

                      For the fact that brockers supposedly offers nothing as a pass rusher, is limited only to a NT, has no quickness, or has no burst:

                      [link]http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664406[/link]

                      for the lazy ones.. ill quote it:

                      Only registered two sacks in 2011 but appears to have blossoming natural pass rush skills. Good initial quickness off the snap and flashes an explosive burst to split gaps.
                      LMAO. Tell me again he offers "nothing as a pass rusher" redeye. Tell me again neverend he has no quickness and can't split gaps?!

                      It gets better

                      Flashes enough quickness off the snap to threaten gaps at three-technique, especially when slanting.
                      Yeah! He's only a 1-technique fellas! No quickness to get pressure!

                      [link]http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=41015[/link]

                      Showcases a good get off burst and when he keeps his pad level down has the ability to gain leverage, extend his arms and use his long arms to shed
                      He shows a BURST when he plays with a good pad level. He is RAW so he doesnt know how to do it consistently yet. Neither did JPP coming out! He showed flashes of greatness when he played with the right technique but rarely did at USF! And Brockers is still getting used to his body! Key word: DEVELOP not "overrated"

                      [link]http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012/01/michael-brockers-scouting-report.html[/link]

                      That scouting report says his issues as a pass rusher is because he lacks moves and plays too high! And I already talked about how he needs to learn how to come off the snap better so he can become more quick.

                      So I'm supposed to take the word of scouting evaluators or people who judge brockers based off of 1 or 2 games on youtube? I didn't say he IS jpp I said the situation coming out of the draft is comparable. They both are freaks, both have wingspans, both looked bad and inconsistent in games, both are raw, and both have incredible upside.

                      I am through with this. I am looking forward to Michael Brockers proving everyone here very wrong. Once he learns to play consistently low and time the snap better his lack of "quickness and burst" and "offers nothing as a pass rusher" will be a thing of the past.[/quote]Flashes, Shows , Develops Buzz words for I see it twice a game. There opinion is he will develop into a pass rusher. FACT he hasnt shown it yet.I think he be a little better then Canty as a pass rusher and an elite level run defender
                      My Youtube tapes are actually good resources u should watch them. I show almost every snap. These draft sites your quoting ,1 of them I know for a fact watches my vids. I will take peoples opinion that watch those over the people that just copy and paste another persons scouting report

                      Comment


                      • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                        [quote user="Neverend"]Good job of supporting your argument here. I still think you're taking the wrong stance on this one

                        You're basing your opinion purely on those scouting reports -- not what you see in games. Now, I'm nowhere near as qualified as those scouts but I don't think it takes a scout to see that Brocker isn't a great pass rusher

                        Note the key term in those scouting reports "flashes". Canty at times flashes penetration in the backfield, but does he do it a consistent basis like Robbins did? No, just maybe once every 3 or 4 games

                        The lower you are into your stance, the better burst you get. The same facts apply to the CB position.. the lower your backpeddal is the more burst you have out of the break. This same argument of "getting low = better burst" applies to EVERY single player at every single position. Low man wins all the time. He also uses the adjective "good" get off burst, not "great", which is what the top interior pass rushers possess in this draft, putting their inconsistencies aside

                        Point blank, you can try and try to make as many excuses for Brockers as you want but he likely will not be a dynamic pass rusher in the NFL. He "could" be but based on players who came into the draft with his skill set, they rarely ever do materialize into great 3-techniques. Sorry.[/quote]I know he has never seen him play. No one that has would ever mistake Michael Brockers as having JPP pass rushing skill. It has nothing to do with technique or being raw either.If he had said Seymour I probably wouldnt of responded. I wouldnt of agreed but would of accepted the comparison.At least Seymour had a similar type of College career. I like Brockers think he is a great run defender but I dont believe he will be ever be a gap shooting DT causing backfield pressure like Suh,Cullen Jenkins or Geno Atkins. The funny thing is Brockers didnt even play on passing downs.If he was looked at as some monster pass rusher like he describes clearly he would be on the field in those situations.

                        Comment


                        • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                          Just my 2 cents, but the JPP/Brockers comparison was not the best.


                          2 different positions---1 is a DE and the other a DT.

                          Comment


                          • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft



                            Tollefon signed with the Raiders, which in my opinion, opens the door a bit more into possible DE or at least D-Line for RD 1... Osi's contract is up after this season, and Tucks been getting dinged up more and more as the yrs go by, and then we got only JPP.. We could possibly go for our future bookend to pair with JPP.. I think Andre Branch comes into the picture alittle more, and if for some reason were to trade outta RD 1, i could see Vinny Curry as a possilbity in RD 2.. I think theres zero chance Whitney Mercilus will be on the board, or i'd have him as a shoe in to get picked by giants...




                            At worst, i think we grab a DE in one of the first few to 4rds... Tyron Crawford comes to mind, as does Cam Johnson and Chandler Jones..... Heres my latest mock, with Tollefson offically being gone..







                            1. Andre Branch DE Clemson- Branch and JPP would make one heck of a pass rush duo going forward , and i think it'll be to much for Reese to pass up on, when he thinks of a Duo of JPP and Branch on 3rd and 7-12yrds...




                            2. Amini Silatolu G Midwestern St- Could be gone, but if hes on the board, i hope we grab em, as hes got a complete package, which includes a nasty demeanor on the field..




                            3. Robert Turbin RB Utah St- Seems like a perfect fit for our team, and on top of solid measurables, showed off some good speed at teh combine, and can catch the football..




                            4. Jerry Franklin LB Arkansas- Could be future ILB or possibly play outside.. I think hes gonna bring that kinda versatility, and the guy is a complete LB, who also does well in coverege... I like Franklin alot..




                            4. Greg Childs WR Arkansas- Double dipping from Ark, as we grab the big bodied Childs, who would be a solid additon to our team.. Hes a solid route runner with long arms, and i feel Eli and Childs would form great chemistry..




                            5. David Paulson TE Oregon- We all know he is a fine reciever, and redzone threat, but i think his blocking is a bit underrated and he could develop that part of his game a bit more with our coaching staff..




                            6. Winston Guy SS Kentucky- Good depth pick here, with possiblity to be more if given shot..




                            7. Garth Gerhart C Arizona St- more help for the interior of the oline.. Gerhart is the most underrated C in this class, and i think is right there with David Molk, talent wise..

                            Comment


                            • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                              sportzfan whats your opinion on nick perry as a DE for the giants? i know you like mercilus but as far as 10-yard split goes i think read somewhere nick perry was equal with branch and mercilus (around 1.56 range which is ridiculous for all 3 of them) and he gained some muscle to play at the line

                              Comment


                              • Re: A look at the 2012 NFL draft

                                I'm making excuses and never watched brockers play lmfao

                                again i look foward to brockers proving everyone wrong. i am not going to even bother trying to take your words instead of the words of scouts that have been doing these things for years

                                Comment

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