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A look at the12'-13' NFL draft

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  • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
    The day of the draft, as out pick approached I said on these boards repeatedly that I thought we would pick Glenn if he was available. But, I was not upset with the Wilson pick either.

    As to yesterday's game, you can argue Martin v. Wilson all you want, but the fact is Wilson contributed more yards to his team than Martin. He just did, end of story. He had 2 VERY good kickoff returns and is in fact among the league leaders in kickoff returns right now. I am not saying he had a better game but I do think his contributions make it very hard for you to say Martin "outclassed" Wilson, your original statement.

    As I said above, TC is always very hesitant to install rookie offensive players. Again, this is fact it is well documented.

    You defended JJ last year when his contributions were less than meager on offense, but it seems you dont have the same patience with regards to Wilson? The only difference is that you proclaimed the JJ pick a good 1 and the Wilson pick a bad 1. I see a bit of hyprocisy here. I see a guy rooting for the picks he liked and sour grapes about the ones he did not.

    I will say it again, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, expected Wilson to contribute more immediately than Martin. Martin absolutely is more NFL ready. But that is largely due to the fact that he is older, much older by NFL standards. Martin turns 24 in January. Wilson, on the other hand, just turned 21 in June. You can say that does not matter, but it does. Wilson will be just 24 years old when his rookie contract is up. Martin will be 27. The Giants draft for the future, not just tomorrow.
    dude, u do realize u can rack up Kick Return yards alot easier then Rushing yards right? I mean, the guy ranked 28th in the league in AVG PER KR is avg'ing over 18yrds per KO return..lol

    I'm glad he did well in returning Kicks yesterday, but i'd much rather see him doing well as a RB.. Usually RB's who are focal points aren't Returning Kicks, because there to valuable to the offense..

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    • I don't care how old WIlson is, that fumble was horrendus and that drop pass should of been caught by a High School freshman, let alone a pro rb.. Also, Avg'ing 2ypc on 5carries is pretty crusty as well.. U expect more from a 1st rd pick in the situation that wilson is in, no matter what..

      Again, its extremely early, but he needs to step uo like 1st rd picks are supposed to do, with the Oppurtunity in front of him.. He can't be letting 4th rd RB's steal the starting job from him..

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      • Originally posted by Imgrate View Post
        Guys like Andre brown and Alfred Morris are why you don't waste first round picks on running backs.
        It depends there are also 20 other guys that do nothing.It depends a lot on the Oline u have . When the Giants had a good Oline mediocre backs like Derrick Ward looked good

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        • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
          I don't remember saying Morris was gonna go Undrafted and even if i did, so what? The guy went in like RD 7 or 6 didn't he? Pretty close another words.. ANd u were spot on with Morris.. Good call! Its one of the reasons i didn't want Wilson, because there was so much great depth at RB u could find later on and i personally have a diffrent view on what type of RB's are 1st rd worthy then some.. Martin and Richardson were the only 2 that combined not only the size/speed/ pass catching ability, but also ability to give u 20plus carries every week and be a lead back from start of there career...
          Ive seen Shannhan plug in guys off the street and rush for 1000 yards in that zone blocking scheme he has

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          • Originally posted by Redeyejedi View Post
            Ive seen Shannhan plug in guys off the street and rush for 1000 yards in that zone blocking scheme he has
            It certainly woulden't be the first time he got a late rder/UDF RB and made em a stud.. Terrell Davis and Mike Anderson come to mind... Shannahans problem is he dosen't give his guys a chance lately.. He flip flops 2much never giving a RB a feel for the starting job.. If i was him, i'd plug Alfred Morris into that starting RB positon the entire season unless he just plays terribly which i don't think he will..

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            • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
              Huh No i never said you said it, I do remember someone responding it. Sorry if I was not clear there. I can dig up the post but im not that motivated.

              But Morris has been the best rookie Back in the NFL so far. This is indisputable. You say he isnt explosive, but he is certainly a workhorse and a good power back. .
              I never said Alfred Morris isn't exlplosive.. I dont' even know enough about em to make such a comment.. He was ur guy from the get go, and i cant' take much credit right or wrong about him.. Just didn't comment a ton about em.. I certainly looked into em a few times, but never got into deep convo's about em..

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              • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                I never said Alfred Morris isn't exlplosive.. I dont' even know enough about em to make such a comment.. He was ur guy from the get go, and i cant' take much credit right or wrong about him.. Just didn't comment a ton about em.. I certainly looked into em a few times, but never got into deep convo's about em..
                As far as him being the best Rookie RB so far, its a bit easier when u got RG3 as ur starting QB, and u play in a much more explosive offense, becuase of it.. Josh Freeman dont give u that threat of Run, so its one less thing u gotta game plan four.. I also think Washingtons Oline scheme has something to do with his success... I mean, last yr he plugged in Helu, and Helu had some monster games as well.. Shoot Evan Royster had some big games as well.. Its similar to Houston with Arian Foster.. Those zone block schemes make it much easier on the RB"s, and u can find guys lke arian foster, roy helu, evan royster, alfred morris, in very late rds or as UDF's and make em into studs...

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                • Also, Alfred Morris and Doug Martin are almost side by side with what they accomplished to this point.. Yesterday, Morris was just lucky enough to get a few more carries, because they AVG'd the exact same YPC... In week one, he AVG'd more per carry but Doug Martin had more Yards rushing and also had 4catches compared to Morris's zero.. They even have the same number of First Down runs as well, with 7 each.. So i woulden't say its as clear cut as u think.. Morris hasen't caught a ball in 2games yet..

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                  • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                    dude, u do realize u can rack up Kick Return yards alot easier then Rushing yards right? I mean, the guy ranked 28th in the league in AVG PER KR is avg'ing over 18yrds per KO return..lol

                    .
                    Nonsense. You are reaching now. Brandon Banks led the NFL in kickoff returns last year and he didnt sniff the yardage of the NFL's top backs.All purpose yards are just as impotrant. A yard is a yard whether it is on special teams or offense especially, when you consider how deep he returned those kicks from his own endzone. And wilson outgained martin in terms of yards. Wilsons kick returns were not just garbage yardage they set up good field position for the offense. Again, I am not saying he had a better game, just arguing your statement that Wilson was "outclassed" by Martin. That is an untrue statement.

                    Furthermore, as I pointed out b4, I LOVE how you defend the picks you liked but who didn't contribute huge early, guys like Jernigan last year. But when it is a pick you didn't like, such as Wilson, you scream it from the mountain top how he hasn't done anything. Tell me, how good did JPP look after his 1st 2 games? He was about the same age as Wilson is now and contributed nothing then too. Geez, what a huge disappointment he has been right?

                    Finally, lets truly compare these 2 in actual terms of the picks they were taken and the value spent. Because if you are going to actualy compare the 2 picks you have to compare how much we spent for them.

                    We used the 32nd overal pick for Wilson, that is it.

                    Martin was traded up for, and they gave up a 4th round selection to do it. Look at some of those guys available in the 4th: Lamar Miller, Joe Adams, Bobby Massie(didnt you want him in the 2nd round?), Orson Charles, Ben Jones ...etc.and of course, the guy who the Broncos actually selected with that traded pick was Omar Bolden. (If my memory serves, you were very high on Bolden.) I know for a fact living in south Florida the fins are raving about Lamar Miller, who is averaging 6.5 yards per carry so far this year( you were not high on Miller at all.)

                    I have contended all along that I think these 2 backs(Wilson v Martin) are far too close in value, and giving up a 4th round selection for 1 over the other is CRAZY. I would not have had a problem if either had been our selection. If anything I think our game vs Tampa confirmed my stance that they are somewhat equal value picks as the correct 1. Wilson has been a special teams stud and Martin has been a decent, but not exceptional starting NFL back. I would suggest that they are about where people thought they would be at this point. Everyone expected Martin to be faster out of the gate in terms of playtime.

                    But, if you want to compare the 2 you have to compare not just Martin vs Wilson, but Martin vs Wilson AND all the potential others guys you could have selected with that 4th rounder. To me, we came out WAY on top. There are some good players drafted in the 4th and beyond.
                    Last edited by BlueSanta; 09-17-2012, 03:13 PM.
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                    • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                      Also, Alfred Morris and Doug Martin are almost side by side with what they accomplished to this point.. .
                      Morris has been a bigger impact thus far. I am not saying he is the better player. I am just saying , this is a kid I said was the most underrated player coming out last year. Considering his impact and the fact that he was a 6th rounder, I think that is a fairly good call on my part.

                      and to be fair, he is averaging a half a yard more per carry, that is quite a big difference.

                      He has also been a monster on short yardage.
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                      • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                        because there was so much great depth at RB u could find later on and i personally have a diffrent view on what type of RB's are 1st rd worthy then some..
                        I have no prob with this. As I said, I completley understood why many had Martin above Wilson and others. He deserved it. But I also understood how someone could have Wilson above martin too.

                        Keep in mind, reports were that Reese in 2010 loved CJ Spiller. This is another reason I believed could have liked Wilson more than Martin. CJ spiller was a very similar prospect coming out of college as Wilson( cept Wilson much younger) Many would argue Spiller dissapointed his 1st couple years, but he is tearing up the league this year.

                        I think Wilson takes a similar route. He will be a special teams player and a fill in guy early and eventually take over the role as our lead back. I still think TC will always be a 2 back guy though.
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                        • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                          I have no prob with this. As I said, I completley understood why many had Martin above Wilson and others. He deserved it. But I also understood how someone could have Wilson above martin too.

                          Keep in mind, reports were that Reese in 2010 loved CJ Spiller. This is another reason I believed could have liked Wilson more than Martin. CJ spiller was a very similar prospect coming out of college as Wilson( cept Wilson much younger) Many would argue Spiller dissapointed his 1st couple years, but he is tearing up the league this year.

                          I think Wilson takes a similar route. He will be a special teams player and a fill in guy early and eventually take over the role as our lead back. I still think TC will always be a 2 back guy though.
                          Ya, i'm not fully sold on cj spiller even now.. Hes still only getting about 14-15 carries a game with fred jackson out, and eventually there gonna up em in carries, and then i have a feeling ur gonna see em get injured.. Its about time hes doing something sthough..lol

                          The diffrence between Spiller and Wilson though is that Spiller has Fred Jackson ahead of him, and Wilson has no one? Andre Brown? I mean, i understand Wilson not being a huge part of our offense if Bradshaws healthy and what not, but with bradshaw injured, the 1st rder needs to step up, end of story.. Also, his age has nothing to do with Coughlin not playing em.. Coughlin did play em early on, and the kid gaffed it away in week 1 and gaffed it away in Week 2.. Its not like coughlin didn't put em out there.. If Wilson would of done anything other then fumble and drop that easy pass, then he'd of gotten more chances, but coughlin has a short leash, and they got the fact hes only a rookie to fall back on if they want, as far as not playing em much after those mistakes.. Its on Wilson, to why hes not getting carries..

                          Yesterday, Lamar Miller whos the same age as David Wilson didnt fumble right away and didn't drop a pass and took his opp by the horns and ran really well gaining 65yrd on 10carrys.. Now he's gonna get a share of the load next week, and if he takes his opp adn does well, it'll just keep evolving..

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                          • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                            Morris has been a bigger impact thus far. I am not saying he is the better player. I am just saying , this is a kid I said was the most underrated player coming out last year. Considering his impact and the fact that he was a 6th rounder, I think that is a fairly good call on my part.

                            and to be fair, he is averaging a half a yard more per carry, that is quite a big difference.

                            He has also been a monster on short yardage.
                            He might have a very slight edge, but thats about it.. Like i said, Martin has those 4catches last week to Morris's zero, which kinda negates the half yrd per carry, in my opinion.. He avg'd another 5.8yrd per catch on those 4catches, and adds more to his total yardage as well.. This past week, they Avg'd the exact same thing, both with no catches, the only diffrence is Morris had 1more TD.. If he does have a edge, its ever so small so far..

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                            • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                              Nonsense. You are reaching now. Brandon Banks led the NFL in kickoff returns last year and he didnt sniff the yardage of the NFL's top backs.All purpose yards are just as impotrant. A yard is a yard whether it is on special teams or offense especially, when you consider how deep he returned those kicks from his own endzone. And wilson outgained martin in terms of yards. Wilsons kick returns were not just garbage yardage they set up good field position for the offense. Again, I am not saying he had a better game, just arguing your statement that Wilson was "outclassed" by Martin. That is an untrue statement.

                              Furthermore, as I pointed out b4, I LOVE how you defend the picks you liked but who didn't contribute huge early, guys like Jernigan last year. But when it is a pick you didn't like, such as Wilson, you scream it from the mountain top how he hasn't done anything. Tell me, how good did JPP look after his 1st 2 games? He was about the same age as Wilson is now and contributed nothing then too. Geez, what a huge disappointment he has been right?

                              Finally, lets truly compare these 2 in actual terms of the picks they were taken and the value spent. Because if you are going to actualy compare the 2 picks you have to compare how much we spent for them.

                              We used the 32nd overal pick for Wilson, that is it.

                              Martin was traded up for, and they gave up a 4th round selection to do it. Look at some of those guys available in the 4th: Lamar Miller, Joe Adams, Bobby Massie(didnt you want him in the 2nd round?), Orson Charles, Ben Jones ...etc.and of course, the guy who the Broncos actually selected with that traded pick was Omar Bolden. (If my memory serves, you were very high on Bolden.) I know for a fact living in south Florida the fins are raving about Lamar Miller, who is averaging 6.5 yards per carry so far this year( you were not high on Miller at all.)

                              I have contended all along that I think these 2 backs(Wilson v Martin) are far too close in value, and giving up a 4th round selection for 1 over the other is CRAZY. I would not have had a problem if either had been our selection. If anything I think our game vs Tampa confirmed my stance that they are somewhat equal value picks as the correct 1. Wilson has been a special teams stud and Martin has been a decent, but not exceptional starting NFL back. I would suggest that they are about where people thought they would be at this point. Everyone expected Martin to be faster out of the gate in terms of playtime.

                              But, if you want to compare the 2 you have to compare not just Martin vs Wilson, but Martin vs Wilson AND all the potential others guys you could have selected with that 4th rounder. To me, we came out WAY on top. There are some good players drafted in the 4th and beyond.
                              I love ur posts, but i gotta tell ya, i didn't read this one in its entirety becuase i'm really tired right now.. All i really seen is "i'm really reaching now".. I find it hard to believe i'm the one whos reaching when ur using KO return yardage to say Wilson gained more yardage then Martin..lol If thats the case, we mines well of just drafted Devin Hester in RD 1, if that is such a big diffrence maker..lol j/k..

                              Martin has hands down, no questions asked been a better player then Wilson to this point.. Shoot, hes right there with Alfred Morris, who u say is the best Rookie Back hands down to this point.. And u certainly can gain yardage alot quicker on KO returns then running the ball. Seeing how it should only take about 3 Kick Returns to get u about 60yards if ur not even doing well on KO returns..lol

                              Wilson certaily did ok on his KO returns, i'll give u that.. Hey, its great, but thats not why we drafted em , and i'd much rather of seen him do what Doug Martin has done.. Lets also not forget, Doug Martin has done what hes done in 2 normal games, meaning not at any point were they needing to play hurry up offense and try and score mad points, and dumping the ball off to em with defense playing back, and giving em draws with defense back, because ur tyring to play catchup, similar to how Bradshaw basically got his game to look decent in week 1.. Hes done what hes done playing as basic as it gets on offense.. There is no wierd extra yards because of a blow out, or wierd yards because they had to go to the run because they were up so much...etc

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                              • hey Santa man, whats ur take on the RB's this yr? Any diamond in the rough RB's u like? What do u think of the GIANTS adding a Kenjon Barner type to the Wilson/Brown backfield? Similar to the 9ers adding Kendall Hunter/ Lamichael James to the Gore/dixon/Jacobs backfields? Another words, a straight sprinter type who can give u another element.. Steelers adding Rainey to dwyer/redman/mendenhall is another example...

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