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  • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
    So again, where are your examples? Im still waiting....

    Sorry dude, this is a losing battle you are fighting. I listed just about every single offensive rookie drafted under during TC regime and the only exception.

    I mentioned Nicks. I said how he saw some limmited playtime. But was not named a starter until mid season. In fact despite HUGE need at the wr position that year he only started 6 of the 14 games he played. I thank you for bringing him up tho as he completely refutes your argument that immediate need will force offensive rookies into action. Nicks was a very NFL ready player, and he did see more action than most rookies but he was still held back according to TCs slow rookie development plan. Many of his sucessful early plays were just wr screens. I
    Dude, by Nicks 4th game, he had 114yrds on 5catches and a TD..lol He played immedietly, and showed he desrved more time.. I don't know why u think Midseason is game 4 of a season? I mean, the guy had a TD in his 2nd game , 3rd game, 4th game, and 5th game..lol Every 1st rder we have played early on, except JPP, who played more as the season went on, because again, he had OSI and TUCK ahead of him..

    David WIlson was given the first crack at backing up bradshaw, and he lost it to Brown.. Theres ur example, right there..lol Why do u think we didn't even see Andre Brown in the opening game? Theres ur example right there.. Wilson got first crack, and for the time being has lost it to Andre Brown..

    And as for other rookies, i don't know whats so hard to understand that it certainly matters whos in front of u, as for gaining playing time.. Why do u think were gonna sit Jeremey Shockey for a 5th rd draft pick outta W.Oregon to start the season is beyond me.. 90pct of the rookies u mentioned are mid rders or later.. Those normally aren't the type of guys who play immedietly, ya know? David Wilson on the other hand has no excuse.. he was given a chance and immedietly lost it becusae of his butterfingers..

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    • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
      so every rookie we have drafted under TC save 1 has been unable to play signifcantly early in his rookie year because we didnt need them? Wow that is amazing. It is also nonsense.


      I listed almost every single rookie brought in under TC. Looking back I forgot a couple. Petrus and Koets. But they only support my claim even further. You are just being stubborn.

      Seriously, you calling out a draft pick after TWO GAMES. That is absurd.
      uhh, tell me where i'm wrong there buddy..

      Boss had shockey in front of em- No?
      JPP had Tuck and OSI in front of em- No?
      Nicks- I'm not gonna say nicks because he played and played often pretty much immedietly, by week 4 he was a regular, not middle of the season, and certainly not with just screen passes.. Thats absurd..
      Jacobs had Tiki in front of em- No? Tiki was all ready a horse for us, why would that change for a 4th rd pick out of Southern Illinois?
      Mario Manningham- Had Steve Smith, Plax, and Toomer ahead of him.. No?
      Steve Smith- I believe got hurt early on in the season if i'm not mistaken? Pretty sure it was playing early on as well?
      Bradshaw- Had Jacobs and Ward ahead of him and he was a 7th rd pick , lucky to make team let alone play early on...
      Scott- Had Bradshaw and Jacobs ahead of him, and kinda diffrent scenario being hes a 7th rd pick lucky to make team let alone steal carries from those 2
      Brewer- a Mid rd draft pick who we knew going in was a project.. Much diffrent then david wilson.

      Actually i'm gonna stop there, becasue to be honest, the rest of the guys still don't play, so why would they of played there rookie yrs a ton? Chances are there not starting material, period..

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      • And i'm not calling out anyone.. I tried to make that clear when i more then once wrote "i know its still early".. I think i mentioned "so far" as well.. Which means so far, not that hes a bust forever... My point is hes been dissapointing so far, and all ready lost his job to a guy we cut as a 4th rd pick a few yrs ago..

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        • We cut Brown because he tore his achillies. Not because he was bad. In fact, there was a lot of high praise for him prior to the injury. Furthermore, I think it is safe to say after 2 games, we will see more of Wilson eventually. His path has been no different than that of every rookie rb under TC.

          Da'rel Scott got 5 carries last year, all late in the season. Prior to that he was a kick returner. After his 2nd fumble in 5 carries as a RB, we never saw him again.

          Ahmad Bradshaw played as a kick returner initially, and after a fumble on special teams he never saw the RB position till the last week of November. But his production certainly picked up from there.

          It is TC's pattern. He does this with all rookie rbs.
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          • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
            We cut Brown because he tore his achillies. Not because he was bad. In fact, there was a lot of high praise for him prior to the injury. Furthermore, I think it is safe to say after 2 games, we will see more of Wilson eventually. His path has been no different than that of every rookie rb under TC.

            Da'rel Scott got 5 carries last year, all late in the season. Prior to that he was a kick returner. After his 2nd fumble in 5 carries as a RB, we never saw him again.

            Ahmad Bradshaw played as a kick returner initially, and after a fumble on special teams he never saw the RB position till the last week of November. But his production certainly picked up from there.

            It is TC's pattern. He does this with all rookie rbs.
            What do u mean its his plan? U do realize David Wilson was the one who initally backed up Ahmad Bradshaw, right? Not brown, but WIlson.. Brown woulden't even be seeing carries right now had WIlson not fumbled then dropped the worlds easiest pass and avg'd 2 YPC on his 5carries overall.. Dude, he was ahead of brown on the depth chart.. I just don't get how u debate that? He did well in the preseason and because all we had was a 7th rd draft pick form last yr, and a Journey man former 4th rd pick, and another former Undrafted Free Agent in Dj Ware, Wilson won the backup job.. He quickly has lost it becasue he stunk up to this point and with bradshaw out, Brown got to back up Wilson, and immedietly played well, and that was that.

            And how do u know the ACL was the reason we cut brown? Its not like he was killing it or anything.. Hes been let go by another 2teams since us.. Broncos adn Colts.. I just don't get how ur comparing 7th rd draft picks like Bradshaw and Scott to david wilson? Wilson's are freaking 1st rd pick and we have no RB's!!! OUr first rders play, end of story.. Almost all 1st rd picks of every single team plays, unless u got something ahead of em worth keeping em on the bench.. Right now there should be nothing holding David Wilson back..

            FOr all we know, David Wilson could have a great game this week, and be right back ahead of Brown.. I'm not saying Wilson's gonna su-ck, i'm just saying as of now, Doug Martin has outplayed the crap outta him, and hes making my case to why i thought Richardson and Martin were the only 1st rd RB's in the class, and we should of taken Cordy Glenn..

            Now in 3wk's from now, i could look totally wrong about this, hence why i said " i know its early" and "as of right now"... This is just simply the very early stages.. But as far as Coughlin not playing rookies, hes all ready proven u wrong, as David WIlson has played directly as the backup to Bradshaw the first 2games but no one said hes gonna be able to fumble and drop passes and keep that job.. Andre Brown has stole it for the time being..

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            • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
              Snee was drafted 2004 and Diehl 2003. So Snee is the lone exception because Deihl was under Fassel as a rookie.

              It is actually quite amazing how consistent TC's policy has been towards offensive rookies.
              I always equate Diehl with 2005 have no idea why. Ive done it multiple times. The only guys who really got involved were Snee and Nicks. I am a little discouraged by Wilson myself. I think RB has different rules then other positions because the career is shorter. If your going to draft a RB in the 1st round u better be playing him . I was hoping to see him get around 125-150 carries which is still possible but looks doubtful at the moment. I think he will get a chance this week against Carolina with the short week. He better take advantage because if he struggles or fumbles he could be buried for the rest of the season.
              Last edited by Redeyejedi; 09-18-2012, 09:58 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Redeyejedi View Post
                I always equate Diehl with 2005 have no idea why. Ive done it multiple times. The only guys who really got involved were Snee and Nicks. I am a little discouraged by Wilson myself. I think RB has different rules then other positions because the career is shorter. If your going to draft a RB in the 1st round u better be playing him . I was hoping to see him get around 125-150 carries which is still possible but looks doubtful at the moment. I think he will get a chance this week against Carolina with the short week. He better take advantage because if he struggles or fumbles he could be buried for the rest of the season.
                I didn't even think about the Shorter life span of RB's. Also, don't forget Steve Smith would of been involved had he not gotten injured.. I mean, the guy came back from injury and played a huge part of our Playoff run.. Kevin Boss came from freaking Western Oregon for godsake, and as soon as he was needed with Shockey getting injured, he stepped right in and played damn well..
                Obviously ur 1st and 2nd rd picks are guys who should see the field more so then 3rd-7th rders, all though they sometimes see the feild early on as well, but mostly due to injurys.. In Wilsons case, were talking about a guy who was a 1st rder and had no one but a injury prone Ahmad Bradshaw in front of him and now he dosen't have him there right now, but he soured so much as Ahmads 1st backup, that Andre Brown probably became the starter in his absence. Sure, it won't take much for Wilson's to get that gig back, as he could go off against carolina and Brown could quickly go back behind him on the depth chart, but as of now, hes been a dissapointment..

                I don't really know how this became about Rookies playing for us and what not???lol They play for us, maybe not always in week 1 or 2 or whatever, but every yr, we have Rookies play instrumental parts to our success.. The examples of guys that were 7th rd picks not getting playing time immedietly are what annoyed me more then anything.. I mean, come on...lol Of course 7th rd picks aren't playing immedietly.. Its impressive enough that they play at all during the yr.. Half the time teams will draft projects in the mid to late rds, so obviously there not playing unless emergency(injury or whatever).. The only good examples would be guys like nicks, s.smith, snee, and wilson.. There the only offensive rookies in recent yrs that i expect would be ont he field helping early on in there rookie campaigns.. I put Steve SMith there becusae we had a opening in the slot when we drafted him.. Steve Smith had 3catches in the Opening game of his rookie yr.. Then he got hurt in week 2, and as soon as he came back, he was huge for us, in the postseason.. Forget the fact he wasen't even a 1st rder..

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                • All right, lets get back to talking about prospects for this yr.. U know ur my boy Santa Man! Were both adults and having fun discussions with guys like Redeye and yourself are what makes me love these boards so much.. Even if it seems heated(not that it does), trust me its not on my end..

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                  • Welp, Time for my Weekly Mock Draft.. Last wk i had us picking 28th after the loss to Dallas, and i'm gonna move us up one selection to PICK 29 for this weeks mock.. Obviously my mocks will change often as we learn more and more what this team may or may not be looking for come April...

                    1. Alex Okafor DE Texas- I know we need lineman, but our pass rush outside of JPP has been non existent so far.. OSI is probably gone after the season, and Reese is gonna make a major push to revamp our pass rush, as it is the NYG calling card and a huge reason we WON 2 SB's in the past 5yrs.. Okafor is coming off a 2sack game against Ole Miss and would look fantastic opposite JPP for yrs to come...

                    2. Jonathan Cooper G UNC- I don't love Oday Aboushi, and i'm not sure theres a T i love perdicted in that range as of yet.. Jonathan Cooper is a fantastic G prospect, and will probably be off the board by now.. Either way Cooper is a great pick for the GIANTS and adds talented young G to the line..

                    3. Matt Elam S Florida- I love this kid and hes putting together a fine season for FLA so far.. With KP's impending FA'cy after the season, we could be lookin at a S in the first 3rd's...

                    4. Tanner Hawkinson OT Kansas- A LT prospect, who is quick and agile and athletic... Hes got a ton of expierence at LT as he started there for 3straight seasons for Kansas.. His stock fell a bit after last yr, but hes well worth the pick in RD 4, and was getting quite a few rave reviews in the Jayhawks latest game against TCU, which i was watching..

                    5. Prentiss Waggner S/CB Tennesee- Versatile player, who could stand to add a few lb's, but has the expierence at both CB and saftey.. I could see us add a couple pieces to our secondary this offseason..

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                    • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                      I don't really know how this became about Rookies playing for us and what not???lol They play for us, maybe not always in week 1 or 2 or whatever, but every yr, we have Rookies play instrumental parts to our success.. The examples of guys that were 7th rd picks not getting playing time immedietly are what annoyed me more then anything.. I mean, come on...lol Of course 7th rd picks aren't playing immedietly..
                      Nice try. I listed EVERY single offensive rookie in TC's tenure. Not just 7th rounders. You listed...........*crickets chirping*

                      Even Hakeem Nicks, a guy drafted at a position of utmost need at the time, was slowly introduced to the offense. He got a couple wr screens early on but remained behind Steve Smith, Mario manningham, and Hixon on the depth chart until TC was ready to name him a starter later in the season. The same exact pattern he has used for all other rookies.

                      Bradshaw remained as a kickoff returner only, sitting behind Rueben Droughns on the RB depth chart until late in the season when TC felt more comfortable with Ahmads grasp.

                      Da'rel Scott remained a kickoff returner last year until November when he got 5 carries and was sent back to the bench after a couple fumbles.

                      I guess you can keep arguing that TC's doesnt have a pattern just like you can also argue that the Sun isnt coming up tomorrow.
                      Last edited by BlueSanta; 09-18-2012, 02:23 PM.
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                      • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                        Welp, Time for my Weekly Mock Draft.. Last wk i had us picking 28th after the loss to Dallas, and i'm gonna move us up one selection to PICK 29 for this weeks mock.. Obviously my mocks will change often as we learn more and more what this team may or may not be looking for come April...

                        1. Alex Okafor DE Texas- I know we need lineman, but our pass rush outside of JPP has been non existent so far.. OSI is probably gone after the season, and Reese is gonna make a major push to revamp our pass rush, as it is the NYG calling card and a huge reason we WON 2 SB's in the past 5yrs.. Okafor is coming off a 2sack game against Ole Miss and would look fantastic opposite JPP for yrs to come...

                        2. Jonathan Cooper G UNC- I don't love Oday Aboushi, and i'm not sure theres a T i love perdicted in that range as of yet.. Jonathan Cooper is a fantastic G prospect, and will probably be off the board by now.. Either way Cooper is a great pick for the GIANTS and adds talented young G to the line..

                        3. Matt Elam S Florida- I love this kid and hes putting together a fine season for FLA so far.. With KP's impending FA'cy after the season, we could be lookin at a S in the first 3rd's...

                        4. Tanner Hawkinson OT Kansas- A LT prospect, who is quick and agile and athletic... Hes got a ton of expierence at LT as he started there for 3straight seasons for Kansas.. His stock fell a bit after last yr, but hes well worth the pick in RD 4, and was getting quite a few rave reviews in the Jayhawks latest game against TCU, which i was watching..

                        5. Prentiss Waggner S/CB Tennesee- Versatile player, who could stand to add a few lb's, but has the expierence at both CB and saftey.. I could see us add a couple pieces to our secondary this offseason..
                        I think that is a good list, especially based on what we have seen thus far this year out of this Giants. This early if doing a mock you have to stress need and I think you did that well. Okafor is a fine prospect, although I prefer Bjeorn Werner. Honestly Okafor both are good prospects for us because they both have 1) good run defense and 2) good positional versatility along the defensive line that will help them get into our nascar packages. Both more natural as LDE which is starting to become need for us of late. I just think Bjeorn is further along as a pass rusher right now and has a quicker 1st step.


                        I think Elam will be riser on some boards, I actually think he will go before the 3rd round. It is a good safety class.

                        Considering Bennett is only here for a year, I do think we have to consider some TEs(seems like I say this every year. )

                        Hawkinson fits Reese's pattern of going for good athletes at the LT position, like he did with Beatty. But also like Beatty this kid does have some beef to add to his frame before he can line up in the NFL. He also has experience at both Tackle positions, which always helps.

                        Part of me hopes we seriously address the interior line. They looked good this week, but we all got to see in the preseason how thin we are. If those backups start coming into the game, we might start seeing a sack-athon in our backfield.
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                        • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                          Nice try. I listed EVERY single offensive rookie in TC's tenure. Not just 7th rounders. You listed...........*crickets chirping*

                          Even Hakeem Nicks, a guy drafted at a position of utmost need at the time, was slowly introduced to the offense. He got a couple wr screens early on but remained behind Steve Smith, Mario manningham, and Hixon on the depth chart until TC was ready to name him a starter later in the season. The same exact pattern he has used for all other rookies.

                          Bradshaw remained as a kickoff returner only, sitting behind Rueben Droughns on the RB depth chart until late in the season when TC felt more comfortable with Ahmads grasp. wa

                          Da'rel Scott remained a kickoff returner last year until November when he got 5 carries and was sent back to the bench after a couple fumbles.

                          I guess you can keep arguing that TC's doesnt have a pattern just like you can also argue that the Sun isnt coming up tomorrow.
                          Ur not getting it.. It was silly to list guys who had incredible players in front of em when they were rookies.. It also made no sense to write down rookies who still don't play well into there careers.. Dosen't that mean they weren't good enough to get alot of playing time, period? Not just rookie yrs? Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Chris Snee all played right away.. David Wilson has teh best situation outta all of em, as he dosen't have Brandon Jacobs and Bradshaw ahead of him.. All he has is bradshaw, whos about 5 foot surgeries deep now..lol

                          I'm still waiting for u to answer why Coughlin had him 2nd on the depth chart? Why was he getting playing time in week 1? Why did he play in week 2? Dosent' that kinda contradict what ur saying right there? The guy was our number 2 RB coming into this season.. The best part is, thats the player in question, and hes the guy who coughlin had running plays in the first qter of our first game..lol Shoot, if he didn't fumble and drop passes and avg 2YPC, he'd be starting this week.. As it is, hes gonna be playing this week.. But wait, hes a rookie, so he can't play under coughlin???lol

                          Jayron Hosley can't play either, right? Or does coughlin just not play Offensive rookies? Again, he plays guys who are the best option.. Hes done it in the past, and hes gonna always do it..

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                          • Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                            I think that is a good list, especially based on what we have seen thus far this year out of this Giants. This early if doing a mock you have to stress need and I think you did that well. Okafor is a fine prospect, although I prefer Bjeorn Werner. Honestly Okafor both are good prospects for us because they both have 1) good run defense and 2) good positional versatility along the defensive line that will help them get into our nascar packages. Both more natural as LDE which is starting to become need for us of late. I just think Bjeorn is further along as a pass rusher right now and has a quicker 1st step.


                            I think Elam will be riser on some boards, I actually think he will go before the 3rd round. It is a good safety class.

                            Considering Bennett is only here for a year, I do think we have to consider some TEs(seems like I say this every year. )

                            Hawkinson fits Reese's pattern of going for good athletes at the LT position, like he did with Beatty. But also like Beatty this kid does have some beef to add to his frame before he can line up in the NFL. He also has experience at both Tackle positions, which always helps.

                            Part of me hopes we seriously address the interior line. They looked good this week, but we all got to see in the preseason how thin we are. If those backups start coming into the game, we might start seeing a sack-athon in our backfield.
                            i prefer werner as well, but i'm going based on us picking 29th this week,a nd i think he'll be gone by then... I think Bennett will get re-signed if he continues to put up big numbers.. Hes pretty fresh and not been around all that long, so it kinda pointless to go draft a TE when u got a young big blocker who has a yr under his belt with the team... The only e'way im putting in a TE is if Bennett gets hurt or stops producing.. Of course a mid to late rd flyer on a guy is always a possiblity.. I don't think Elam is gonna go before RD 3, but i have a feeling he'll go before we pick in RD 3, but there is at least a possiblity he'll be there.. Its not overly far fetched... I'd be pretty happy if we pulled that draft out...

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                            • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                              Ur not getting it.. It was silly to list guys who had incredible players in front of em when they were rookies.. It also made no sense to write down rookies who still don't play well into there careers..
                              No YOU arent getting it.

                              I listed EVERYONE despite their ability. I did not discriminate AT ALL and ALL of them propose the body of evidence that COMEPLTELY refutes your statement.

                              YOU made an incorrect statement MOVE ON ALREADY. TC has a long established pattern of gradually introducing rookies to the lineup. Get over it...geez

                              .
                              Last edited by BlueSanta; 09-18-2012, 05:02 PM.
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                              • Originally posted by nycsportzfan View Post
                                I'm still waiting for u to answer why Coughlin had him 2nd on the depth chart? Why was he getting playing time in week 1? Why did he play in week 2?

                                Jayron Hosley can't play either, right? Or does coughlin just not play Offensive rookies? Again, he plays guys who are the best option.. Hes done it in the past, and hes gonna always do it..
                                Again, TC is slow to introduce rookies on offense. FACT. Hakeem Nicks was slowly introduced to the offense despite a HUGE need at the position. He did not get the start until mid season. He was given a couple basic plays early , mostly WR screens(but not all). he made the most of them. So far, Wilson has not. hardly reason to call him out tho especially in light of his big contributions on special teams

                                Here is a link to Nicks 1st NFL TD in week 2 of 2009. Guess what play it was? that is right a WR screen Guess where he was on the depth chart? 4th

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJU90xwl7o

                                So again, what examples do you have? I am STILL waiting. I listed every single rookie. where is your list? If you cannot produce 1, I will assume this discussion over as you have no support to your claim and are just agruing for the sake of trying to get the last word and save face after making an incorrect statement.
                                Last edited by BlueSanta; 09-18-2012, 03:54 PM.
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