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  • #61
    Originally posted by CGYgiant View Post
    This is from the link you posted:

    "But Odell Beckham Jr. is arguably a more logical choice than Mike Evans. His speed and explosiveness provides a different dimension from Vincent Jackson, which would help make the Bucs less one-dimensional. In addition, I've seen him ahead of Mike Evans on several draft boards -- most notably Greg Cosell's"
    .
    Yes, that is why I posted it. Because it is the only mention I can find or Odell being above Evans, however Cossell seems to contradict that in his video on WRs. Remember my position here, I am the guy saying that ODB was a consensus behind Evans, the statement above I responded to was that he wasn't the consensus #3 guy he was #2 on many peoples board. That simply isn't true. Btw, I do not believe I have ever claimed that Evans was Cosells #2, in fact it was I who linked the point about Benjamin being above Evans in his opinion. I just stated that I could not find anything aside from a 3rd party who claimed that Cossell had Odell above Evans. But in reality that is irrelevant to the point I made.

    I think part of the problem here is that people are confusing 2 terms: Consensus and unanimous. Consensus = most. unanimous = all.

    There is ZERO doubt that the consensus was that Evans was above Odell. I came to this conclusion by the simple fact that I spent months looking at people's opinions and other info available and I cannot find 1 single person prior to the draft who is a scout or analyst who had Odell above Evans. Now people are saying Cossell did, but the fact is Cossell didn't make his board public so that is hard to confirm and in his videos on WR rankings, he seems to contradict this statement. But in truth, it does not matter. Because even if I am wrong and Cossell DID have Odell above Evans and had him as his #2 guy, it still doesn't disprove my point. Consensus = MOST. And 1 example, or 2 or 10 doesn't disprove my point that Evans was a consensus(again, MOST) better overall prospect. Furthermore, as I pointed out above there are a lot of scouts who didn't even have Odell #3 on their boards. Many did, but many didn't. I see a lot with Benjamin, Cooks and even Lee in that spot.

    Remember, here is the post I responded to:
    Originally posted by gurujot View Post
    Beckahm wasnt the consensus #3 receiver, he has superior route running and leaps higher than Mike Evans some pundits had him as the highest in draft as well as many that had him at 2
    That simply isn't true. Just the mere fact that people are digging as hard as they are in this thread to find a guy who will back up this statement speaks to this. Evans was the consensus #2 guy. As I pointed out, if anything Beckham was not the consensus #3 guy because there were quite a large number of scouts who had him behind Benjamin, Lee, or even Cooks.
    Last edited by BlueSanta; 05-22-2014, 10:49 AM.
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    • #62
      where they get picked is not the issue. How they perform in the NFL is the what matters. Who gives a rats *** what any body said. OB is "one" of the top rated WRs and the the NYGs got him at 12....
      It should be a great pick IMO
      "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
      You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

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      • #63
        But you don't know who the giants had rated higher between evans and OBJ. You don't know how most actual NFL gms had rated higher because they do not usually release that information. You don't even know who I had rated higher.

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        • #64
          Which is why I said based on the information we have meaning the analyst, draft pundits, various mock drafts…
          The question was never whether the giants had OBJ rated higher or not its who was the consensus #2 rated WR coming out and that based on once again…. the information provided to us which is what the basis of the argument it.

          I don't understand why everyone is getting their nickers in a bunch, its not like we are saying we hate the pick or devaluing the player, I am an LSU fan so I am neutrally happy until I see the production on the field and thats only because I rated Donald higher than OBJ.

          You will find it hard pressed to find any documentation that Evans was rated below OBJ period. He was the #2 rated WR for most of the draft process only once have i seen someone rate him 3rd behind Watkins and Lee.

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          • #65
            It doesn't matter where they were ranked going into the draft. The only thing that matters now is who is going to perform in the NFL and who is going to be a bust. OBJ could turn out to be the best WR from this draft class. Same goes for Bromley he may prove to be a better NFL 3T than Donald. Obviously we don't know anything yet and its all a big ?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by rainierjef View Post
              Which is why I said based on the information we have meaning the analyst, draft pundits, various mock drafts…
              The question was never whether the giants had OBJ rated higher or not its who was the consensus #2 rated WR coming out and that based on once again…. the information provided to us which is what the basis of the argument it.

              I don't understand why everyone is getting their nickers in a bunch, its not like we are saying we hate the pick or devaluing the player, I am an LSU fan so I am neutrally happy until I see the production on the field and thats only because I rated Donald higher than OBJ.

              You will find it hard pressed to find any documentation that Evans was rated below OBJ period. He was the #2 rated WR for most of the draft process only once have i seen someone rate him 3rd behind Watkins and Lee.
              whose getting bent out of shape? it seems like you're just taking too much of an issue with people being correct in that the opinion ODB was rated ahead of Evans was held by some NFL sources and analysts, maybe its bc u weren't aware of it i dunno. and that was never the issue, whether ODB was the consensus #2, it was if there were teams/analysts who had him the #2 and there was...no one here is demanding everyone claim ODB is the better prospect over Evans, we're merely just pointing out the fact that there were those who held that opinion who know what they are talking about.

              i dont think ud find another poster who wanted evans in nyg blue than me and i am in no way saying hes gonna be bad or anything. i just do believe the opinion that evans could struggle to gain separation at the nfl level is a valid claim, as well as the questioning of whether or not he can run all the routes and be effective over the middle. personally, i believe he'll be able to to an extent but i cant say those that hold that opinion are baseless bc there is some legitimacy to those claims...
              Last edited by giantsfan420; 05-22-2014, 10:46 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                Yes, that is why I posted it. Because it is the only mention I can find or Odell being above Evans, however Cossell seems to contradict that in his video on WRs. Remember my position here, I am the guy saying that ODB was a consensus behind Evans, the statement above I responded to was that he wasn't the consensus #3 guy he was #2 on many peoples board. That simply isn't true. Btw, I do not believe I have ever claimed that Evans was Cosells #2, in fact it was I who linked the point about Benjamin being above Evans in his opinion. I just stated that I could not find anything aside from a 3rd party who claimed that Cossell had Odell above Evans. But in reality that is irrelevant to the point I made.

                I think part of the problem here is that people are confusing 2 terms: Consensus and unanimous. Consensus = most. unanimous = all.

                There is ZERO doubt that the consensus was that Evans was above Odell. I came to this conclusion by the simple fact that I spent months looking at people's opinions and other info available and I cannot find 1 single person prior to the draft who is a scout or analyst who had Odell above Evans. Now people are saying Cossell did, but the fact is Cossell didn't make his board public so that is hard to confirm and in his videos on WR rankings, he seems to contradict this statement. But in truth, it does not matter. Because even if I am wrong and Cossell DID have Odell above Evans and had him as his #2 guy, it still doesn't disprove my point. Consensus = MOST. And 1 example, or 2 or 10 doesn't disprove my point that Evans was a consensus(again, MOST) better overall prospect. Furthermore, as I pointed out above there are a lot of scouts who didn't even have Odell #3 on their boards. Many did, but many didn't. I see a lot with Benjamin, Cooks and even Lee in that spot.

                Remember, here is the post I responded to:


                That simply isn't true. Just the mere fact that people are digging as hard as they are in this thread to find a guy who will back up this statement speaks to this. Evans was the consensus #2 guy. As I pointed out, if anything Beckham was not the consensus #3 guy because there were quite a large number of scouts who had him behind Benjamin, Lee, or even Cooks.
                Ah. I see.

                So its a consensus when the media heads have a specific ranking, correct? or "analysts" as you call them

                That is simply, silly, the media boards and actual NFL boards (made up largely of scouts) typically differs from the talking media heads. I definitely loved the part where Prospect A was "rising" a day before the draft. Scouts spilled their personal rankings to the media and then prospects start shooting up boards. Therefore, your "consensus" is based largely on the concept of group think and NOT scouting reports.

                Truth be told, no one really knows what the actual consensus is. What we do know is that it was close and that we got the best route runner in the draft. I guess we can leave it at that.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                  whose getting bent out of shape? it seems like you're just taking too much of an issue with people being correct in that the opinion ODB was rated ahead of Evans was held by some NFL sources and analysts, maybe its bc u weren't aware of it i dunno. and that was never the issue, whether ODB was the consensus #2, it was if there were teams/analysts who had him the #2 and there was...no one here is demanding everyone claim ODB is the better prospect over Evans, we're merely just pointing out the fact that there were those who held that opinion who know what they are talking about.

                  i dont think ud find another poster who wanted evans in nyg blue than me and i am in no way saying hes gonna be bad or anything. i just do believe the opinion that evans could struggle to gain separation at the nfl level is a valid claim, as well as the questioning of whether or not he can run all the routes and be effective over the middle. personally, i believe he'll be able to to an extent but i cant say those that hold that opinion are baseless bc there is some legitimacy to those claims...
                  Agreed, I loved Evans as a prospect but to think that teams couldn't possible have had ODB over him is ridiculous and contratry to reports that I read (likely spilled from team scouts) days before the draft.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CGYgiant View Post
                    Ah. I see.

                    So its a consensus when the media heads have a specific ranking, correct? or "analysts" as you call them

                    That is simply, silly, the media boards and actual NFL boards (made up largely of scouts) typically differs from the talking media heads. I definitely loved the part where Prospect A was "rising" a day before the draft. Scouts spilled their personal rankings to the media and then prospects start shooting up boards. Therefore, your "consensus" is based largely on the concept of group think and NOT scouting reports.

                    Truth be told, no one really knows what the actual consensus is. What we do know is that it was close and that we got the best route runner in the draft. I guess we can leave it at that.
                    It seems you are more interested in just arguing than actually making a point.

                    Not only did Evans go ahead of ODB, which kinda seems to back up my point that he was in fact rated above him, but both players ended up going right about where the scouts and analysts had them going.

                    Yes, we got a very good player in ODB. But, if he was rated above Evans on many teams boards and was the #2 WR on all these team's boards, why didn't they trade up for him? The difference between pick 7 and pick 12 is 300 points on the Draft Trade value chart. That's a pretty significant amount difference and if teams felt like ODB was worth 300 point more then where he ended up going, someone would have traded for him.

                    It follows the CONSENSUS that Evans was a higher rated player. Which is exactly as I said. Pretty much every single piece of evidence in this thread says exactly that.

                    Lastly, where did I say media heads? I didn't bring up the scouts and analysts the guy saying ODB was higher than Evans did. He even used the words "pundits." But lets be clear here. I am not referring to the Mel Kipers an Todd McShays of the draft, even tho they too had Evans above ODB. Mayock did, Casserly did, Walterfootball did. Everyone at NFLdraftscout.com did too that I could find. Some of these guys and people on these sites aren't just "talking heads" they are former NFL execs, players, Scouts, etc. and many of them do this year round. Furthermore, I had Evans over ODB as did most everyone on these forums based on our own evaluations.

                    But that is all besides the point. It was a consensus, get over it. It doesn't matter. We got a really good football player at 12, and Evans wasn't even available. So why go on about this? The point has been made
                    Last edited by BlueSanta; 05-23-2014, 08:11 AM.
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                      whose getting bent out of shape? it seems like you're just taking too much of an issue with people being correct in that the opinion ODB was rated ahead of Evans was held by some NFL sources and analysts, maybe its bc u weren't aware of it i dunno. and that was never the issue, whether ODB was the consensus #2, it was if there were teams/analysts who had him the #2 and there was...no one here is demanding everyone claim ODB is the better prospect over Evans, we're merely just pointing out the fact that there were those who held that opinion who know what they are talking about.

                      i dont think ud find another poster who wanted evans in nyg blue than me and i am in no way saying hes gonna be bad or anything. i just do believe the opinion that evans could struggle to gain separation at the nfl level is a valid claim, as well as the questioning of whether or not he can run all the routes and be effective over the middle. personally, i believe he'll be able to to an extent but i cant say those that hold that opinion are baseless bc there is some legitimacy to those claims...
                      You talk way too much, I asked you in your previous post to show me the evidence a Link, a news article, if you want to mail me a clip out I will give you my forwarding address of an analyst, draft pundit, GM saying Evans was rated below OBJ.
                      OBJ was not the consensus #2 ahead of Evans I have been watching him since he entered the LSU program, No one had him ahead of Watkins or Evans leading up to the draft.

                      If you learn to read and comprehend, or tame yourself from attack a viewpoint without doing your due diligence first you would see that my comments lined up like this…

                      "We were not the only ones a lot of Analyst, coaches, draft pundits thought A.Donald was a better prospect, he was always mocked higher than Beckham, graded higher in every top 50-100 prospects, A lot of people bypassed his size for his motor ad pass rushing ability, which is why he was drafted in the first round, if it wasn't for that motor and dominance he would of been a day 4 prospect."

                      "Donald was the #1 DT / Beckham was the #3 rated WR this much we know by the information provided to us."

                      "there was a lot more talent in this draft for WR than their was for DT, Donald was worlds apart, where Beckham was the 3rd best receiver."
                      which lead to this comment…
                      Originally posted by gurujot View Post
                      Beckahm wasnt the consensus #3 receiver, he has superior route running and leaps higher than Mike Evans some pundits had him as the highest in draft as well as many that had him at 2
                      And that's how the conversation evolved to consensus, with CYG chiming in that Cossell had his rated higher which was debunked by Blue.

                      I have shown Links to this argument was well as Blue, don't comment on my post unless you have a link stating other wise, especially if you start off your post with this asinine comment "it seems like you're just taking too much of an issue with people being correct…" no one is taking an issue with anything and my response stating about people getting their nickers in a bunch, never said 'butt hurt' don't put words in my mouth either; was to this comment

                      Originally posted by giants8493 View Post
                      But you don't know who the giants had rated higher between evans and OBJ. You don't know how most actual NFL gms had rated higher because they do not usually release that information. You don't even know who I had rated higher.
                      OBJ was not the consensus #2 or #3 Lee was ahead of him sometimes
                      http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...2014-nfl-draft
                      as one reference I can find more.

                      Retweeted by Rueben Randle
                      @Katdaddyjay 17h
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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CGYgiant View Post
                        Ah. I see.

                        So its a consensus when the media heads have a specific ranking, correct? or "analysts" as you call them

                        That is simply, silly, the media boards and actual NFL boards (made up largely of scouts) typically differs from the talking media heads. I definitely loved the part where Prospect A was "rising" a day before the draft. Scouts spilled their personal rankings to the media and then prospects start shooting up boards. Therefore, your "consensus" is based largely on the concept of group think and NOT scouting reports.

                        Truth be told, no one really knows what the actual consensus is. What we do know is that it was close and that we got the best route runner in the draft. I guess we can leave it at that.
                        You are wrong, we do know what the consensus is, no one ever argued team draft boards, we debated analyst, draft pundits etc. who they had rated. My initial post was that Donald was rated higher than Beckham because he was the #1 rated DT where as Beckham was rated the #3 sometimes #5. Based solely on the information we have which was the starting basis of my argument we can definitively say Beckham was not rated higher than Evans or higher than Donald.

                        I honestly do not know what or why you are arguing as Blue and myself provided proof to the point against your claims. Mike mayock, daniel jeramiah and other talking heads have scouts that go to games and report back, Mayock talked about this during the draft segments that he had a guy ( a scout) tell him to look at tape on a player, in which he did and he liked the prospect. Mayock was a Scout, Jeramaih was an executive of a NFL team and was in draft rooms. Once again! based on the information we have available to us give by those two guys mentioned and more, there is nothing you can give me that says OBJ was the Consensus #2 ahead of Evans at all.
                        Last edited by rainierjef; 05-23-2014, 09:19 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                          It seems you are more interested in just arguing than actually making a point.

                          Not only did Evans go ahead of ODB, which kinda seems to back up my point that he was in fact rated above him, but both players ended up going right about where the scouts and analysts had them going.

                          Yes, we got a very good player in ODB. But, if he was rated above Evans on many teams boards and was the #2 WR on all these team's boards, why didn't they trade up for him? The difference between pick 7 and pick 12 is 300 points on the Draft Trade value chart. That's a pretty significant amount difference and if teams felt like ODB was worth 300 point more then where he ended up going, someone would have traded for him.

                          It follows the CONSENSUS that Evans was a higher rated player. Which is exactly as I said. Pretty much every single piece of evidence in this thread says exactly that.

                          Lastly, where did I say media heads? I didn't bring up the scouts and analysts the guy saying ODB was higher than Evans did. He even used the words "pundits." But lets be clear here. I am not referring to the Mel Kipers an Todd McShays of the draft, even tho they too had Evans above ODB. Mayock did, Casserly did, Walterfootball did. Everyone at NFLdraftscout.com did too that I could find. Some of these guys and people on these sites aren't just "talking heads" they are former NFL execs, players, Scouts, etc. and many of them do this year round. Furthermore, I had Evans over ODB as did most everyone on these forums based on our own evaluations.

                          But that is all besides the point. It was a consensus, get over it. It doesn't matter. We got a really good football player at 12, and Evans wasn't even available. So why go on about this? The point has been made

                          First off, my point is no one knows the actual consensus of the TEAM draft boards. I hope you understand that this time. Im not aruging, im stating a fact.

                          Next, you mentioned Mayock, Casserly, and the great Walterfootball. I really hope you understand that at least two of these individuals dont actually watch tape right? Whereas individuals like Cossell who have WR's like OBD and Kelvin Benjamin above guys like Evans is much more valuable, not to mention, once again, the Bills also had ODB higher than Evans. Im NOT saying that ODB is a superior prospect, im saying there are those that did feel that way during draft time.

                          Look up the term group think, again ive mentioned this before, that is what the media does when it comes to draft talk. Consensus rarely comes from individual analysis within the media. Just an FYI.

                          Lastly, I want to make it clear that I agree that the media had a consensus about who was a better player, no doubt, within the team circles, there is reasonable doubt.

                          Not that it matters anyways, I think we should put this one to a rest. We have ODB regardless.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by rainierjef View Post
                            You talk way too much, I asked you in your previous post to show me the evidence a Link, a news article, if you want to mail me a clip out I will give you my forwarding address of an analyst, draft pundit, GM saying Evans was rated below OBJ.
                            OBJ was not the consensus #2 ahead of Evans I have been watching him since he entered the LSU program, No one had him ahead of Watkins or Evans leading up to the draft.

                            If you learn to read and comprehend, or tame yourself from attack a viewpoint without doing your due diligence first you would see that my comments lined up like this…

                            "We were not the only ones a lot of Analyst, coaches, draft pundits thought A.Donald was a better prospect, he was always mocked higher than Beckham, graded higher in every top 50-100 prospects, A lot of people bypassed his size for his motor ad pass rushing ability, which is why he was drafted in the first round, if it wasn't for that motor and dominance he would of been a day 4 prospect."

                            "Donald was the #1 DT / Beckham was the #3 rated WR this much we know by the information provided to us."

                            "there was a lot more talent in this draft for WR than their was for DT, Donald was worlds apart, where Beckham was the 3rd best receiver."
                            which lead to this comment…


                            And that's how the conversation evolved to consensus, with CYG chiming in that Cossell had his rated higher which was debunked by Blue.

                            I have shown Links to this argument was well as Blue, don't comment on my post unless you have a link stating other wise, especially if you start off your post with this asinine comment "it seems like you're just taking too much of an issue with people being correct…" no one is taking an issue with anything and my response stating about people getting their nickers in a bunch, never said 'butt hurt' don't put words in my mouth either; was to this comment



                            OBJ was not the consensus #2 or #3 Lee was ahead of him sometimes
                            http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...2014-nfl-draft
                            as one reference I can find more.
                            Where did blue disprove my notion of Cosell having ODB and Benjamin over Evans? My guess is you have selected reading abilities.

                            Also, your main arguments tends to float around the prospect that the #1 DT should be taken ahead of the #3 WR. Did you have access to the giants boards to see where the had each player ranked within there respective position groups? If not, is it extreme to think that perhaps the Giants second or third wide reciever was ranked higher on their big board than their first ranked DT?

                            Best player available, that is why the Giants took ODB. Dont think too hard about that one.

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                            • #74
                              all you can do is compare college performance. Lets see what these two actually do in the NFL..
                              There is a good chance a DT you never heard of may out perform both of them. It wouldn't really even be a big surprise. Happens all the time in the NFL
                              "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
                              You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by CGYgiant View Post
                                Where did blue disprove my notion of Cosell having ODB and Benjamin over Evans? My guess is you have selected reading abilities.

                                Also, your main arguments tends to float around the prospect that the #1 DT should be taken ahead of the #3 WR. Did you have access to the giants boards to see where the had each player ranked within there respective position groups? If not, is it extreme to think that perhaps the Giants second or third wide reciever was ranked higher on their big board than their first ranked DT?

                                Best player available, that is why the Giants took ODB. Dont think too hard about that one.
                                Originally posted by BlueSanta View Post
                                Yes, that is why I posted it. Because it is the only mention I can find or Odell being above Evans, however Cossell seems to contradict that in his video on WRs.
                                Here he even tries to help prove your point, for! you…

                                http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/vi...4-21a9fef2fc3c

                                In this video Cosells doesn't even take a stance on which receiver he ranked higher than who, he goes about it as types size, route runners. He did more comparing of Beckham to Cooks in this video and to no one else. You said you heard somewhere on a podcast or something, well podcasts are saved and you can retrieve them or just provide the link. My selective reading abilities also extended to hearing and vision as well, Blue provided proof you are just telling us, much like the other poster I don't want to hear what you think or think you heard I want to see it for myself or hear it for myself. Shouldn't be too much to ask for, am I asking for too much?

                                My argument was this:
                                "There is no way Beckham graded better overall than Donald, even if its on the opposite spectrum of the ball,"
                                "We were not the only ones a lot of Analyst, coaches, draft pundits thought A.Donald was a better prospect, he was always mocked higher than Beckham, graded higher in every top 50-100 prospects,"
                                "There is no exact science to this as we are both assuming, Donald was the #1 DT / Beckham was the #3 rated WR this much we know by the information provided to us. This is the deepest at WR a draft has ever been in a long time, we just lost out premier DT to the vikings, Donald based on the info we have available to us was the BPA/need combo at 12,"

                                Where in any of those initial points did I say based on the Giants Draft board? if anything its been the analyst since the beginning. which is why i said based on the Info we have, So… If your stance all along was

                                - "First off, my point is no one knows the actual consensus of the TEAM draft boards. I hope you understand that this time. Im not aruging, im stating a fact."

                                Why are you even arguing? no one is questing knowledge of the Giants board we are questioning this - "Beckahm wasnt the consensus #3 receiver, he has superior route running and leaps higher than Mike Evans some pundits had him as the highest in draft as well as many that had him at 2"

                                in which I reply "show me the link where some had Beckham ahead of Evans and I will believe that."
                                and Blue replies

                                "I understand we all love ODB now that he is a Giant and I do suspect he will be a good player and will fit what we do here.
                                However, I spent a lot of time reading scouting reports, watching film, reading mocks and explanations etc.
                                Never once, that I can recall, this entire offseason heading into the draft did I see any analyst predict ODB going higher than Evans. I saw a couple with Evans over Watkins but as far as I can recall nobody had him behind ODB.
                                You are correct in that he was not a consensus #3 WR, but that is because some had him as 4th and even 5th, not 2nd."

                                My arguments never float, they respond to every rebuttal that comes across, that is the problem with message boards vs. face to face debates, everyone thinks your are scrambling, changing a subject or just a wish-washy debater when infact you are responding to multiple rebuttals, tracking?

                                Do you want to argue that A.Donald was not ranked higher than OBJ now? Once again Donald was then consensus #1 DT in the nation, OBJ was #3-#5 WR in a deep WR class. if you want to ague that provide a top 100 where OBJ is listed higher, i'll wait…

                                This last post of your's makes me think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, really simple way to handle this and shut us both up, provide the link of Cossell saying he has OBJ ranked higher than Evans.
                                Last edited by rainierjef; 05-23-2014, 11:48 AM.

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